Ep. 936: Something From The White House That We Can All Applaud

This is an iHeart podcast, Guaranteed Human. The best part of a Whitetail sit is often the part you have to earn. The temperature drops, nothing's moving, and climbing down starts sounding pretty good. The difference between seeing it through and climbing down early is about heart, but it's also about heat. That's why first light built whispered down. With 900 fill power mscovy down, box bathful construction, and quiet water resistant fabric, it delivers serious warmth without weighing you down. First light whispered down, pack light, stay longer. Check it out now at FirstLight.com Welcome to the new show everybody, we got a doozy for you. This week we've got big great news from the White House which is very nice and a welcome break from a string of bad news from the White House. We've got a new US typical Whitetail deer record which nudges out the Huffbuck who we interviewed here on the podcast so condolences to you off. We got a dude in Pennsylvania put out a onesie and shot a new Pennsylvania state record out with a crossbow. We got Etsy really is the devil. We've got fresh wolf news and we hear from US representative Ryan Zinke about a piece of legislation called get this a river runs through it act which is artful naming. But first back to that giant buck. All right. Earlier this month, boon and crocodile announced that there is a new USA record for typical Whitetail deer and it's a buck that was killed 35 years ago. Here's how that came to be. Sam Ayupa of Northern Illinois was out feson haunting on November 28, 1991. His passion was bread hunting and he considers himself just a casual deer hunter. He said he'd always buy deer tags but he like never put much time or effort into actually deer hunting. However, it was actually feson hunting that helped him kill what would end up being the new USA record. Here is Sam telling the story of that hunt via boon and crocodile. Bill. Okay. I had a stand there because I saw a lot of spray things and a lot of deer tracks. I said I'm going to go into deer stand. This was around 330 in the afternoon. Just before sat down, this deer come walking down the trail. He stopped. He looked around. He walked a little bit and sat down looked around. I looked up my slug shotgun and took one shot and he jumped up in the air, came down, went over to hill. He stood in my stand for another 15, 20 minutes, came down. Saw the blood went over to hill and there he was playing that on the other side of the hill. Called my buddy and we helped process the deer at that time. Now that's a deer hunting story. Just no nonsense. Yeah, man. He cuts all the bullshit out, man. Guys would take longer to tell you about a doe that they didn't kill. That's just how quick. Totally. It doesn't seem like he was out there after a record, you know, it's like the Hanson believable deer. But helmet. Yeah. Okay. You're going to get to this because this is a long time ago. Yes. What giant? That's bigger than the one laying in my yard. Yeah. He's that big. What Sam doesn't mention in that clip is how the gun he killed it with, the Remington 870, was also his pheasant hunting gun that day. So he just went home, swapped out his bird shot for slugs and then went deer hunting. That's great. That's how it goes. So it wasn't even using a rifle. Slug barrel. It's just a smooth bore. So Sam kills that buck with very little fanfare. He skullcaps the deer, nails it to a plaque and hangs it in his basement. There he is. At that point, the buck basically disappears for three decades. Then in 2023, Sam has an electrician at his house to do some work. The electricians name is Don. Don starts working in the basement and that's when he spots the deer and he can't believe it dies. Don goes to Sam. He's like Sam. Where the hell did this deer come from? And Sam tells him the story, how he killed it 30 years prior. And that's when Don tells Sam, "Hey, this might be the Illinois State record." So Don pleads with Sam to get the buck scored because he thinks it might get thrown the Mel Johnson buck, a very famous white tail. It was the Illinois State record of 204 inches that it stood since the 1960s. So Sam gets the buck roughly scored and it's even bigger than anyone imagined. Initial measurements show that this deer is actually a world record caliber, not just state record size. So the buck has now at this point, like kind of entered the public eye in an antler collector in New York. Here's about it through the grapevine. He drives 600 miles to Sam's house to see the rack and ends up purchasing it from him for an undisclosed mountain. Oh come on. It really sits in basement for 30 years. Antler collector hears about it prior to it being officially scored. Antler collector goes and buys it from Sam and I bet Sam got screwed on that deal, man. I'm guessing he didn't get his top dollar at that point, that would be my assumption. So the antler collector then has it officially scored by Boone Crockett and it comes out to a typical score of 207 and seven eighths, even with those big old drop time, even with those droppers. It made it the new Illinois record by three inches, the new USA record by two inches, but it fell short of the world record that was killed in Canada by about six inches. Here are some highlights of the rack. The gross score was 233 and seven eighths inches. It had 13 points back up. Why is it all stuffed now? Because they do that. The antler collector went and got the stuff. Yeah. Oh yeah. I think buy a cape and put it on it. And I get all that. But I mean, why? Because it looks. What's wrong with the way Sam. Yeah. Just so you can look at it on a on a white tail, a white tail is not as bad as white tail's hide that's not his. This is just like what happens with these things, you know, and I have man, the brown tines are what got him the record, I think brown tines 13 inches each with the brown tines. That's probably the highlight of the rack. The first thing you notice, the bucket 13 points, the frame is a six by five, two abnormal points on the left antler. One of those is seven inch drop time inside spread of 20 inches. The biggest mass measurement was six inches and each antler measured over 100 inches on their own. Man. Oh, God. We would have counted them little points where I came from. Well, if you can hang a ring on it, you can hang a wedding ring on it. The Fred troast from Michigan can hang a wedding ring on it. Oh, man. Here's a deal, man. That's where you're reporting is really falling short. Okay. That antler buyer, I feel like he screwed. What's the guy's name? Sam. No, sir. Sam was the hunter. The antler buyer was something Martin. I'm afraid that Sam got boned because I was just reading about it. My kid was reading me this, our kids get this kiddie news magazine. My kid their night was reading me a story about some kid goes into a thrift shop and buys a warm, a Lakers or like a Lakers warm up jacket for a couple bucks and then it sold that auction for $86,000 because those will Chamberlain's warm up jacket. I feel that he pulled a one of those. I hope not. But did he pull a one of those on that dude? No one's going to tell me the price. I asked some of these folks in the past what they got paid for their racks. I usually NDAs come with these plates. It's like going to a yard sale in Michigan, finding old man Rinalis tree stand. Yeah. Dude's giving me that back. Yeah. I know we probably got it for a steal. Oh, that's huge. It's a private worst of money. I don't know. You might be signing an NDA. When I get back, we're going to talk about it on the news show. And this is great. This is great. There's a few more wrinkles to this story. Again, it is the world's second biggest typical white tail ever kid killed. However, when it was killed, it was actually the world record because the Mydl Hansen bug wasn't shot until 1993. So two years after Sam Ayupa killed this year. So that thing sat in his basement for two years as the world record white tail without anyone knowing that it even exists. God, this guy got extra screwed on all of his money. Yeah. He didn't know that. He would have sold that thing. He would have sold that thing for a quarter million dollars. Uh-huh. Yep. Another interesting detail, although it took over 30 years for the buck to resurface, it turns out this deer wasn't a complete unknown. A shed hunter actually picked up the buck's right side that would have been from the deer's 1989 rack and another shed hunter picked up the buck's matching set that were from the 1990 rack. So the season prior to it getting killed, uh, those antlers had some global fame in the white tail world because the 1990 left shed measured 105 inches, making it the second biggest shed of all time. What? And why is that glued to a skull again? People just want to see it on a rack or on a hide. And so the shed person who found these two matching sets put them on a skull. That was not the deer's skull. Steve's looking at a picture right now of the shed hunter. Uh, so second giant, second biggest shed of all time, uh, it wasn't until recently that this, it wasn't until recently. This year was known as the James Albring buck named after the man who found the 1990 matching shed sheds. Uh, but of course it is now the Sam Ayupa buck, the guy who killed the thing. They don't know exactly how old it was. Do they? No. Uh, but he, he throws a pretty similar rack from like 80. 99 to 90 to 1991. It looks like he's still on his way up, so I would guess when he was killed six and a half, probably six and a half, seven and a half is when they'll start to go downhill. Yeah, but the handsome buck was only four. Is that what they said? The world record was four, not crazy. It is crazy. So this dude, this dude unknowingly had the world down on his mantle piece with his next to pictures of his kids graduating high school. Not even on his main floor in his basement. In his basement next to like, and there's a picture next to his pictures of his kids graduating from high school. He had for two years the world record whitetail. He did. I don't know this detail. I just assume it's an unfinished basement. Like, you know, it's with a couple feet of like some ductwork. It was the next to his kids pictures of his kids. It was next to the breaker box. The electrician was working. Yeah. That makes you think how many world record bucks are out there right now. Tell it a little bit. We don't know about. Yeah, there's that great story about this dude that had the biggest, the guy that holds the Idaho Mildred record. He shot it years ago. I think his name was Ernie or something like that. Shot it years ago, remarked that it looked like a screwy buck quote through in his barn. And in a long time later, someone's like, hey, you ever have that measured? Yeah. And it's true. And this dude was out pot hunting. He's not just going out to get some deer meat shot. I thought it looked like a screwy buck. I'm sure there's stories like that all over the world record desert big horn sheep was killed in Baja, California in 1940 by a Native American who was just meat hunting. He didn't even take the skull from the field. It was a rancher who found the skull out there, brought it back to the ranch, sat it there a year later, some other hunter who comes in who does kind of is aware of these things. And he's like, where did that thing come from? And they're like, oh, yes, some some native fella killed it here last year. Turned out to be the world record and nobody had any. Yeah, it's crazy. You know, it's telling Spencer the other day and he didn't seem that interested in it. No, what? If I could see any any buck in the world, it would be this buck. So you know, Colonel Dodge, like Dodge City. Yeah. Well, Dodge City, everybody thinks his name now to Colonel Dodge, but it was already named Dodge City when Colonel Dodge got there, but like Colonel Dodge. Big hunter, this is back in the you know, he's big hunter in the mid to late 1800s. He's down in Texas. I think he was down in Texas when it happens and shoots a buck, a mule deer. And he's like, this was a buck the likes of which no one had ever seen, but I lost it in the fire. Oh, so you wonder like what was up? I don't know, maybe it's a dink. I don't think it's a dink because at that time, like all that unhunted ground, you know, and he's talking about no one's seen a buck like this. Like what was that? Yeah, but back then, where people didn't even care about it. I know, but he did. So just like the fact that he in his memoir is like, dude, this was a smoke and buck. You got him wonder what that buck was. He says interesting. Brody's interesting. I'm into it. I'm into it. You see, you know, you see those old timey black and white photos, the people having, you know, the buck poll photos. They're not even smiling. Yeah. And every single deer there is like a giant. Yeah. Or they got all these deer hanging on a pole and like laying off in the background of some giant that's off to the side. I know one final thing. If all of these numbers are like, if this isn't your language and this is making you dizzy in the words like typical and non typical and deductions and it seems kind of convoluted, that's because it is. Here's a great example of how complicated and ridiculous big buck measurements get. We had Dustin Huff on the podcast in 2022. It was in 2021 when he killed his famous white tail that he named moose. The title of the podcast was episode 338, the biggest buck in the USA. And that wasn't accurate title until 2025. Here's what happened. Every three years, the official awards program judges panel from Boon and Crockett gets together for a meeting. And it's at this meeting that they verify the scores of all of the biggest animals that were entered into the books since the last time that they met three years prior. Well, the 2025 triennial panel, the group of judges re-measured Dustin Huff's buck and wound up giving it an official score of 205 and six eighths. This was five inches smaller than previous scores. And it wound up making it three eighths of an inches, three eighths of an inch smaller than the James Jordan buck. Thus Dustin's deer went from number one in the USA to number two. I don't know that. And of course, with the edition of Sam Ayupa buck, Huff now sits at number three. So I talked to Dustin about this earlier this week. He's still, of course, like thrilled that he killed the deer. It doesn't care if it's one, two or three. But he said how the whole process has made him wonder if there's a better way to measure the size of deer antlers where there's not so so many things that are, you know, just like left up to judgment calls. And you have to wait 60 days. Well, actually, you have to wait three years until this panel can get together. It's all very complex. And you get different guys scoring them. Well, I know what Steve's answer is going to be. Here's what Dustin wants to be. Dustin would love it if there was a 3D scan that could be done. That throughout any like human error, there would be no more judgment calls. It would take into account all of the mass measurements rather than just eight of them, like the boon and crocket system. And maybe if that program existed, we would look at the top 10 deer in the USA all different because of how it would, you know, take into account the actual size of the right. That's basically the same thing you're saying, isn't it? Well, I was just going to say, just to be just to be provocative. I was going to say, I've always been curious about water displacement. It's the same thing. Don't come into tank of water. But then you're throwing all this non-typical typical thing and all that. So maybe like for non-typical, you don't put in a tank of water, measure the volume of antler. And that's like the deal. And you can shoot some big crazy club horned buck. That's the problem, right? Yeah. The sun dude shoots some crazy buck that's got like a weird grow found and it winds up being like, ah, number one. Yeah. But it doesn't even look like a deer. Yeah. Yeah. So new USA record buck. All right, man. Well, I'm waiting for Phil. Oh, normally you go now. Let's move on to. Okay, you podcast listeners that remember back to a very popular episode we did called well with what I remember the whole thing was called. It was with author Brian Burrell. It was episode 740. It was about the gunfighters, about the gunfighter era and about the weird thing that he explores in his book and he talked about on the podcast is why do all of the gunfighters come from Texas or have passed through Texas? What was it about Texas that produced all the famous gunfighters? Well, check this out. It was so popular in such an intriguing idea of the history of the gunfighters that Brian Burrell is coming on to our podcast network and launching a podcast called the gunfighters. It drops weekly on Tuesdays on the gunfighter's feed. It's out now. So check out that podcast, the gunfighters, which is the story of all the great gunfighters. Also, we keep talking about this pre-sale and all that BS. Okay, the live tour tickets are just like regular old on sale. If you want to come see us in the live tour, it's on sale. December 14th we're going to be a grand wrap as Michigan. December 15th Milwaukee, Wisconsin. December 16th Madison, Wisconsin. December 17th, Des Moines, Iowa. December 18th, Minneapolis, Minnesota. December 19th, Fargo, North Dakota. That's either live the Christmas tour. I've heard that the Fargo venue is the hottest one right now. If you're thinking of going in Fargo, you better get your tickets. You know what, we're about that one because all these other places I got bodies there and I couldn't think of many bodies in Fargo. Who's going to buy the tickets? Steve's going to make some. My mom's not there. All right, our next segment is sports ball fights. Football season is here and we are going to predict the winner of some games this season, but we're not basing this on talent or coaching or home field advantage like every other analyst. We are picking based on the merits of their animal mascots. Thanks to draft kings for sponsoring today's segment. This week Steve is going to predict how it would go if a Bronco fought a ram. Steve, who would win that skirmish? Well, there's there's who would win. If I picture a Bronco and a ram fighting, there's who would win and who needs to win. Okay. Explain how it's white and they want it being the same answer. When a ram, if these guys measured the impact of I think it was I can't remember his big horns or dolls, but they measured the impact. You know, when they jump up to butt heads, when those things butt heads, they measured how much force it is. It's something like it's something like 50 times the amount of force it would take to shatter a human skull. Hmm. Geez. A devastating car. accident. Yeah. Meaning if you sat there and got strapped in and let a big horn ram, do his thing where he gets up on his back feet and gets wheeling head and does it, you're a dead man. Even if he got a football helmet on, probably. Oh yeah. No, you know what it is? It's not. I remember now, it's 20 X. Okay. 20 X, what it takes to crush a human school? We're really measured that force. I don't know. Same do is it figure out car crashes. I don't know. It's a good question. I don't know. Car crash is a little more. They got all these, they got all these, they got all these sponge. If you, if you look at the skeletal structure on them underneath that are like these like, these sponge structures are like shock absorbers. Anybody that's heard, it sounds like a 22 going off. I mean, it really does. Like you can be out in the woods in November. Yeah. Oh, someone shoot a gun. It's like, no, it's big horns, hitting heads. So if you strapped in some bronco horse, strapped them into a thing and let a ram smoke them dead, that's who would win. Okay. Now here's why they, it needs to be that way because when I hear the word broncos, now a lot of cowboy guys are going to hear the word bronco and they're thinking like, you know, riding around on horses. I hear the word bronco and I'm thinking feral horses. Yeah. Some more or quote, unquote, wild horses, something that wandered off some BLM land in Nevada. Yeah. And, and, and because of some poorly construed legislation back in the 70s, we've created a problem where we now have a infestation of wild horses and burrows, AKA broncos, running around on desert big horn habitat and using up food resources and water resources that should be going to native wildlife. That's what I think when I hear the word bronco. So these actual rams should be fighting these broncos. These rams should be fighting these broncos. If they, if they could smoke them, they'd smoke them, but they need to win because there is an existential fight in the American West, Nevada, Utah. Okay. There's an existential fight in the American West between rams and broncos. Okay. So there's just a lot of stake for it. So there's a lot going on. You're taking a ram. Dude, they would and they have to. Okay. Rams beat the Broncos. One app, every sport, all 50 states, new draft kings, customers, sign up with code meat eater, spend just five bucks and get 150 in rewards within 14 days, includes all markets that code meat eater and partnership with draft kings. The crown is yours. Thanks again to draft kings for sponsoring today's segment. Gambling problem called 1-800-Gambler, 1-800-My Reset. Connecticut called 888-7897777-Visit-CCPG.org. On behalf of Boothill, Casino, and Kansas, Betax Pasley, may apply in Illinois, 21 and over, void in Canada. Bet with draft king sportsbook to get bonus bets that expire in seven days or trade with draft king's predictions to get predictions dollars that expire in one year. A vent contract trading involves risk of loss. Predictions offer void in New York, one with robber rewards issued as $50 click to claims every seven days for 14 days. Terms at dkng.co/offer, limited time offer nationwide based on sportsbook predictions and free-to-play sports contest availability varies by state. It's Steve Ronella here and it is white tail week at meat eater. That's right. The most anticipated week of the year, white tail week at meat eater. Both seasons are open, boxer-making rubs, and all week we're going deep on the most hunted big game animal in America. We're also running the ultimate white tail giveaway. The sort of the premier part of this package is you win a hunt with Mark Kenney and Jordan Bud at Jordan Bud's family ranch in Nebraska where I have hunted. Jordan is cool as hell. Her family's ranch is cool as hell. It is great hunting. You're going to have a blast plus yet gear free gear from over 20 brands. So keep an eye on meat eater channels all week and head to the meat eater store to sign up. No purchase necessary. Get all your rules at the meat eater store. Okay. Your news. You know I'm not going to play it Steve because you don't like it and I need to think of a new one. I thought about just going to play it just so people can see how bad it is. Yeah sure I love to. Just remind people how dumb it is. It's like a non-thing. It's not that bad. Do it again. Okay. Okay. When I say three. No, no. Sorry. It's so dumb so short. You don't even know that it happened. Okay. Ready? Okay. I count to three. Okay. Here we go. Okay. One, two, three. There's like a little pain. It's below filled to normal. Yes. High standards. Yes. Like if I said to my 10 year old, I may hey, make a little thing and he made that like, oh, it's so cute. Good job. But it's like it's Phil. Phil's like got a career of great things he's made. Well, it's just this worse thing. You never mind if you hang it up on your fridge, Steve. That's all I care. What? Yeah. I don't know. Well, honestly, I don't think it's that bad. No, I said it last week when I was putting these together, that was the one where I was like, I can do better, but we record in five minutes. So I ran downstairs. And I can do better. Phil, share with share with listeners. Yes. Share with listeners the quote that you looked up yesterday. Oh, there can be no deep disappointment without a deep love. Martin Luther King Jr. I thought he was talking about America. Phil said he was talking about the church, but I'm saying that talking about Phil. No, no, no, no, no, no, great disappointment without deep love. So like he, like you know, everybody's got their worst stuff. It was like some not all stones albums are great. Yeah. Steel wheels. It's like, come on. I love music. Phil steel wheels. I went to that concert. It's not impressed. I love music from the 70s. And I heard someone express one time how like amazing and phenomenal and they just like didn't miss the 70s with music. And someone was like, well, no, you're only hearing what survived the 70s. There was actually a lot of bad music in the 70s. It just doesn't get played on the oldie station. Yeah. That's funny. You mentioned it because my favorite thing in the world to do is goof on Seth about how little Seth knows about 70s rock and roll. It's just like it's a joke that never gets old. It happens a lot lately. Yeah, goofing on Seth about him not knowing who wrote famous 70 songs is the best thing I could do with my time. I have found a way to make it. It came up daily when we were in Florida last week. Yeah, when you guys get to travel again. We know we're going. They said you know who this is. No. Just that's just what we do for hours. I can bring back a Gordon Lightfoot parody again if you want. All right. Brought to you by banish. I'm holding a banish can right here. And um with your kitty deer season coming up, this is becoming a very important part of my arsenal. Yep. Dude, I mean, I like it for me, but if I'm hung on my kids, I especially like it because it makes them like shooting. It's great. Um, so hit it, Seth. Etsy. We're back with more Etsy hypocrisy. Um, was it the last one where I talked about the Etsy thing with fur? I think so last week was the AMA with Steve, but I think it was the week before that before that. It's totally coincidence that I'm holding this squirrel on Etsy. No, but isn't it bizarre that now, okay, now on Etsy, you would not be able to sell a score. I didn't even grab it for this reason. On Etsy, you would not be able to sell a road kill squirrel. Coosie. Yep. But I thought, well, go ahead. Um, well, so the United States fish wildlife biologist wrote in who chooses not to be named. Yep. Does not want to be named, but um, they wrote in with this email. I listened to your Etsy hypocrisy piece with great interest. Under the Migratory Burp Protection Act, it is illegal to possess most native bird feathers. Under the Lacey Act, it is illegal to move protected animal products across state lines. Cites strictly regulates foreign birds across national borders. However, if you start poking around on Etsy, you will find many stories or stores where bird feathers are for sale that clearly violate at least one of the above acts for sighties. Um, try searching for burrowing owls or barn owl. Um, some of the stores say the feathers are ethically sourced or from captive birds. Um, but that makes no difference according to the laws when people don't get permits, and they both, and they both the buyer and the seller need them. Um, and Etsy does not bother with it. And they ban ethically legally sourced fur and fur products. The hypocrisy makes me sick. Um, you know, some more hypocrisy on Etsy and I'm on this whole thing about just how like misguided this fur ban was and counterproductive and, and contradictory of any kind of regulatory structure and what's actually going on with these wildlife species in America, is that you can go on there and you can go on Etsy and buy a, you know what a bust is like a, like a carving, like decorative busts, like carvings of people. Yeah, it's like the marble ones. Okay, there's this whole industry on there. You can buy Sean Combs busts. You can buy Jeffrey Epstein busts. You can buy sculptures of Sean Combs and Jeffrey Epstein with their arms around each other. You can buy spring break 2000 Epstein Island t-shirts. There's this whole genre of products on Etsy, which capitalizes on the pain and suffering and exploitation of young women. And Etsy is like, "Oh, that's cool. That's totally cool. What we don't want you doing is selling a Koosie made of scrawl fur that you harvested legally with a license that funds your state-efficient game agency. It is so dumb and sickening. Um, you know, it's interesting. I just saw right now is that you can buy large barn owl pellets. So you can buy fur, but it has to be eaten by an owl and then throw it up. The fact that they came to them, it just makes like someone, and I, we got to hear from someone that's working on this. There's someone working on it at the alternative. It's just like a more, it's then like an alternative to at sea where you can support a company that's not so immoral and hypocritical and full of shit. Um, yep. Man, there's all kinds of feathers and stuff on you. You can buy Canadian goose wings or Canada goose wings because it's not first, not mean. All right, the news. You got a good one for this one. Oh, it's good. What happens in the end there? I think he gets eaten by a cat or something. What does the machine that's going to do? Well, it's the, it's the, it's the Morse code machine that is eaten by a cat. Well, it's a small man morphs into a nut hatch. So I tried to find a bird that sounded like Morse code and I'm, I'm Morse. Okay. So that's very good. That's bird is then eaten by a cat, understood. I can add like a little hiss in there too, making more obvious. Okay. Oh, no, no, we, we, we talk about like some, like a really good piece, like a pretty complex long piece of great news for hunters and anglers that came out of the White House. All right. Now, let me, let me adjust my fonts here. You know, I'm going to put my, I'm going to put my glasses on for some of it, right? It's getting serious. Yeah, getting real serious. Okay. Here's the deal. Here's the deal. Now, these are executive orders. A couple of weeks ago, they had in the White House, they had this like party. I saw this invitation floating around. They had this like reception, like celebrating American hunters and anglers. And you could get invited. I wasn't invited. I'll say how about that? I have friends that were invited. They went. I wasn't there. And out of this, out of this meeting came a couple of executive orders that are like really sharp and they're good. And they're nuanced. And these are less like these, these big lists of fixes that are coming out of the White House to fix certain management issues. Okay. There's, there's a fishing one and a hunting one. The fishing one that came out of the White House is like an executive order. Okay. Restoring American saltwater angling and recreation. All right. Let me give you with a little how this, how this kind of thing words out and what it looks like. It starts out by saying, by the authority vested in me as president, by the Constitution and the laws of the United States of America, it is hereby ordered colon. Okay. Now, it starts out that this executive order starts out with an approach that I'm sometimes uncomfortable with. But it's very common and it comes from enemies and allies alike. And it's this approach where you say you're like, hey, nature is worth a bunch of money. And hunters and anglers spend a bunch of money. Therefore, these things are important. Right. And I'm always like, the reason I say I'm uncomfortable with that approach is while true, I don't think that those things need to be economically important to be valuable. So I'm like, yes, that's all great, but that's not the final point. Okay. So that's why I say I'm uneasy with that. But it happens all the time. Everybody does it. They mean well. It's more of an intellectual argument around that. But again, these executive orders are like are all great news with one potential exception that I'll get into. But but the order goes on. Okay. From there goes on for a sentence like this. All right. It says America's outdoor recreation sector. So this is outdoor recreation sector generates over 1.2 trillion dollars annually and supports over 5 million jobs to ensure America's recreational fishing remains strong. So this is an important sentence here that I want people to pay attention to. It says this to ensure America's recreational fishing remains strong. Federal fisheries management must appropriately prioritize both recreational and commercial fishing. So it suddenly kind of sets up that there is an emerging rub between recreational and commercial fishing. Which we'll get you because it's saying it doesn't say to ensure America's recreational and commercial fishing remains strong. It's not what it says. It says to ensure America's recreational fishing remains strong. Federal managers must appropriately prioritize both recreational and commercial. Just give you another little more flavor for how this thing reads out and then we'll get into the points. Okay. It says this order modernizes federal management by shifting the federal posture from restricting recreational access to fishing to actively empowering affiliated industries and coastal communities. It is the policy of the United States to elevate the marine recreational fishing industry as an important consideration in all federal ocean coastal and public land decision making. So that's kind of like the that's like the overriding just the thrust of it. Can I ask a question? Sure. Do you think this is linked to the red snapper thing? I'll get me a minute. All right. It's way more complicated than that. I'm just wondering. Yes, it gets into that. What the tricky part of this is in doing my research on this executive order, I had to talk to a lot of people who deal in these certain things that we're going to get into to be like, what are they trying to fix? Like it proposes fixes, but it doesn't get into what the rub is. So you have to a little bit track down and you'll find experts in these fields that are like, oh, here's where that comes from. Here's what that. Here's the annoyance that that is trying to address because the order is, you know, it's like seven or eight pages, right? So it doesn't give the whole background. But if you get into these, you can find out, here's the annoyance that this is addressing. Here's the specifics that this is addressing. And I'll try to provide some of those where I can. Okay. Here's some more language from this. So I can't go through the whole thing and read you the whole thing it would take forever, but I'm going to read you some key parts. Section three. Okay. Again, this is from the president of the United States. This is from Donald J. Trump. Section three, it begins like this. Modernizing data collection infrastructure for recreational catch and effort estimates. It says to resolve chronic inaccuracies and latency and federal commercial catch and measure effort estimates. The federal government must transition away from antiquated data collection and sampling practices. Basically, it comes down to this. And if your mom and dad work at NOAA like all respect, but basically, it comes down to an educated perspective that NOAA has in large measure shit the bed on fisheries data collection. All right. They're relying on these old systems of like random Creel surveys. You know, you have a guy go down to the doctor. They say, hey, what'd you catch? Randomly. Okay. Or these mail-in questionnaires where fishing season ends and like tons of time goes by and you get a mail-in questionnaire and they're asked you to try to remember back to such and such date and how many fish you caught. Their system that they're using to measure how much people are fishing and how much they're catching was built around this idea of establishing these very long-term trends. Okay. So they're sort of looking at like over time what do the trends look like. And meanwhile, they're getting their asses kicked by the states who are doing a much better job of finding out what is happening on the water and in the water at any given moment. A thing that's not brought up here but the drives is this whole red snapper debacle where NOAA is trying to assess red snapper stocks through these antiquated systems and they're not they're just not getting an accurate picture of what goes on in the ground and they're getting a picture that contradicts the picture that the states are getting who are otherwise managing all the fisheries and it leads to these kind of crazy seasons seasons that are a couple weeks long seasons that are a couple days long and creates this kind of like bonanza atmosphere and then even then they don't know what's actually happening in the water. Okay. So it's given them like the order is giving them a little bit of a nut tap and saying there's people that are doing this better than you that they're better staffed. This is not in the order but it's true they have like a better rapport with anglers and you're You're getting beat up on this instead of mailing papers. off through the postal service that are going to end up in like junk mail piles. How about using a thing that this order specifically addresses? How about using apps? Mandatory or optional where appropriate apps where people are telling what is happening on the water right now? When am I fishing? How many fish are we seeing? So that you can make educated management decisions and have like adaptive management strategies that plan to what's happening. The same way if you think about in hunting the same way you have all these quota systems, you can turn on a hunt and you can monitor what's going on and then make adjustments. So that's what that one is coming from. Then there's this other fisheries one here. It says to address the decline of iconic recreational fisheries such as the Atlantic striped bass and other depleted stocks. The Secretary shall generate a list of key species to use in partnership with the recreational angling community, charter captains and state agencies to gather the important words here to gather real-time data, deploy advanced tagging technologies and improve catch and release mortality estimates. And I've tried to find from people when they say improve catch and release mortality estimates. Let me check my text messages. I'm waiting on some info. I don't think I'm going to get it in time. No. What I'm wondering on this, my guess, my gut on this is that they're saying that on things like striped bass, I wouldn't be surprised if they're saying these guys are killing way more fish than they think they are. I'm sure that's the other way around. And it may be that they're saying why have a catch and release season and just have a very limited catch and kill. I think that, because if you look at, well, it's the stocks are depleted. We're going to make this super narrow, like with striped bass, stocks are depleted. We're going to make this super narrow slot limit where you can keep a striped bass between 30 and 32 inches. Everybody runs out. They want to get a keeper striped, striped bass. They run out and catch three dozen fish, turn them all loose, get their one slot fish and they're like, I killed a fish. And I think that the answer is, buddy, you killed 10 fish. Right. I'm sure you killed 10 fish. Yep. And so like getting an accurate sense of what's happening when you create these situations where you're generating all this catch and release effort thinking you're saving fish when you might be smoking fish. So that my get, I don't know, I haven't verified it with anybody. I was hoping to get a text in time verifying this. That's what I think is happening right there. So again, also updating management, like updating data collection. It's all good stuff. It's Steve Renella here and it is white tail week at me either. That's right. The most anticipated week of the year, white tail week at me either. Both seasons are open, boxer making rubs and all week we're going deep on the most hunted big game animal in America. We're also running the ultimate white tail giveaway that the sort of the premier part of this package is you win a hunt with Mark Kenney and Jordan Bud at Jordan Bud's family ranch in Nebraska where I have hunted Jordan is cool as hell. It is great hunting. So keep an eye on me either channels all week and head to the meat either store to sign up. Get all your rules at the meat either store. Then there's more stuff about a direction from the interior department to do that that that money thing that I talked to earlier, like how big is this industry basically saying that they want to while I'll just read the words. Within 180 days of the date of this order, the secretary shall develop a comprehensive five year strategic plan with clear implementation milestones to improve the collection analysis and application of recreational fisheries economic data to support fisheries management. This plan shall ensure that the economic impact and value of recreational fishing blah blah blah is fully accounted for in federal fishery management decisions and harvest opportunities because what you're going to do is this earlier I said this thing without saying it I believe that this thing is setting up a potential I don't want to say a conflict but a potential reckoning between recreational angling and commercial angling where commercial angling has always had this value around economic output. And I think that not I think what this is saying is we need to look at how big recreational fishing is and what it is as an industry. So in these areas where we're looking at recreational use versus commercial use, they don't mention this such as the troll industry in Alaska for instance or like commercial king salmon and recreational kings. They're saying we're saying oh no no the commercial fishing is jobs recreational fishing is people messing around having fun and they're saying let's get a full picture of what this industry looks like because you might find in time that that's a bigger industry that it's better for the end it's better for the country as a whole to support recreational more. This doesn't say that this is me editorializing on what it says. Now here's what things get really good. Section six fast tracking artificial reefs and habitat creation. I don't want to spend a ton of time on this one but it's this. You get all these offshore oil rigs and over the years there has just been a ever evolving sense of what should happen with these offshore oil rigs. Sometimes they're using them to make this program called rigs to reefs. Right now what they've been doing or the last bunch of years is just harvesting these reefs. So you build these oil rigs. They go offline and these things have some people out they're going to contest this but they're wrong and I don't even care what they say. These things have created a fishery. They've created a habitat and a habitat desert. Seth can back me up. Anyone who has ever jumped in on an oil rig and jumped in where there's not a oil rig and the Gulf of Mexico will tell you they have created. I mean they are an artificial reef. They have created and maintained a fishery. These rigs create biodiversity and these rigs create biomass. They've been operating on a program recently where they take these things called rig reapers. They remove the whole damn rig down to subsurface and take away every scrap of anything and call that good news and it pisses off the fishermen in these places who are like you're hauling away all the habitat. Like don't even burden the conversation with why those rigs are there in the first place they're there now. They provide habitat and this is saying this is a program the federal outer continental shelf reef in place program to facilitate the conversion of decommissioned offshore oil and gas and other use structures. There's an interesting carve out for for wind energy which trump hates but anyways everything but wind energy which kind of cracks me up. So everything offshore other than ship built for wind energy which trump hates into permanent artificial reefs through reef in place, topple in place or other approved reefing methods. That's great news. There's just no two ways about that one being great news. Here's another one. I mentioned earlier the Wild Horse and Burrow Protection Act where you create some legislation and it winds up coming around to screw you because no one can see into the future and you shouldn't make binding resolutions. Sometimes. Here's a big one section seven managing predators and it is looking at shark and pinniped depredation on fishery species. There are a lot of places in the country where the shark populations are out of hand. Now people can people can look and think well how can that be true. I hear all I read about is sharks being depleted. Yes it is a big planet. Three force of the earth is covered in ocean. There are plenty of places in those oceans where sharks are depleted but I'll point out you can only hunt elk on about 14% of native elk habitat. The fact that elk are not recovered in southern Wisconsin does not mean that elk are not recovered in Colorado. It's just a big place and so this is opening up some latitude to look at shark degradation and take appropriate management efforts and probably what this is getting out without saying it is loosening up shark harvest regulations. It seems like every other year you're reading about some state that says total ban on shark harvest. You shouldn't be doing that stuff because it's not like adaptive management and this seeks to address some of that. Projects for increasing fish abundance. Can you back up? You didn't address the pinniped thing which I think is kind of super important. I should have talked about the pinniped thing. A great pinniped example would be trying to recover salmon in the Columbia. watershed. The problem, one of the problem, not not the problem for Pacific salmon in the lower 48. Okay, the problem for Pacific salmon in the lower 48 was the construction of dams, which have all these obvious problems with you have, you have an adjermis migratory fish of dams obstructed. They keep fish from going upstream and they keep young fish from coming downstream. That's the core primary issue. And trying to work around that and find a way to move forward on fish recovery while dealing with the dams being present, there's all these steps you can take. But there's a big thing happening is over the decades, sea lions have figured out that if you want to kill a ton of salmon, go to a dam. Yep, the dams are great for them. Because the fish, even when there's structure there, fish ladders and things, the fish pause at the dams and sea lions just do word of mouth, have learned to come, you're going to think that I'm lying. I'm not. Sea lions have learned to come from literally hundreds of miles away to bitch slap salmon at those dams. And you got strong sea lion numbers, but people are like, oh no, no, you can't mess with sea lions because of the Marine Mammal Protection Act. And the Marine Mammal Protection Act becomes an impediment to restoring salmon. So you have healthy sea lion populations now, which you can't mess with. And you have salmon, which you're trying to help, but now you can't help them because you're stuck and got screwed by this other piece of legislation called the Marine Mammal Protection Act. And it's trying to do some necessary work to allow, again, like nuanced, thoughtful, adaptive management practices and get out from under a lot of like very burdensome counterproductive regulations. It's all, it's, it's, it's good stuff. And I haven't even gotten into the main thing. I'm trying to move fast now. Yes. And it's the big one on this is a section eight projects for increasing fish abundance. Um, here's the key sentence. There's always habitat stuff going on. Here's the key sentence. Agencies are encouraged to transition habitat restoration metrics toward production based goals, which is saying, if you're going to go do aquatic habitat projects, we want you to measure, is it producing fish? Good stuff. Um, and then in the end, it always cracks me up. The final thing in all these orders, the costs for publication of this order shall be borne by the Department of Commerce. I don't know what that means, but I think it's cute that they end these all that way. Donald, it's signed off. Donald J. Trump, the White House, September 17th, 2026. Now the other executive order, it's twin cousin, it's fishing cousin executive order, reinvigorating America's hunting heritage. Starts out similar way. This one's more flowery. This was a different writer. This writer starts out section one, purpose and policy section one. It's a very flowery. You Trump didn't write this. He says, I think if he wrote it, there would be the word, um, there's a word, an enigma. So American hunters, anglers and landowners are the greatest conservationist the world has ever known. Hunting promotes healthy and robust animal populations. Conserves are, conserves our beautiful wildlife for future generations and ensures that every American can enjoy our rugged diverse and untamed frontier areas. It says our forefathers looked with awe on our vast prairies, towering mountains, serene deserts, coastal paradises, and rushing rivers. It says that same awe, not the language you'd expect from the White House, it says that same awe motivates millions of Americans to invest billions of dollars in countless hours into stewarding our land and conserving our wildlife. Now again, this is all or 99% good news and I'll tell you where the one percent might be a little bit weird. But the above I have to point out and celebrating these executive orders, I have to point out that there's a rub here. There's like a contradiction here. Because it's talking about the awe, the wilderness quality, untamed frontier, the same email. I got a bunch of people sent me this executive order. I also got this executive order from the external affairs team at the White House. And in this thing, in this email, in the body, the email, there's a reminder about a bunch of things that came out of the White House that I feel were assaults on the untamed frontier areas. Also coming out of the White House was an executive order to unleash American energy that opened up hundreds of millions of acres of federal lands and waters to energy development and also took out a lot of regulatory checks on those developments. Not great for hunters and anglers. In August 26th, Department of Agriculture took action to rescind the 2001 roadless rule. All right. On 45 million acres of national forest system, really bad for hunters and anglers. So that untamed wilderness, those are things that people do to tame the untamed wilderness. It's spirit of the unwild. But I don't want that to totally track from all of the good news found in here. There's a sentiment expressed in this executive order up top that is pos-- nah, not puzzling, but it says, despite this legacy accessing federal lands for hunting has never been harder. Hunting opportunities our nation have declined due to the federal government's regulatory overreach, confusing and inconsistent access policies and heavy-handed restrictions. Okay. But then right off, it gets really detailed with really great news. It's just good news. All right. It instructs within 90 days the secretary of the interior is directed to allow for hunting within the Castle Mountains National Monument and craters of the Moon National Monument and preserve an Idaho. So boom. Right off the bat, while I'm saying good news, it's like boom. There's 21,000 acres of new hunting access in California and potentially hundreds of thousands of acres of hunting access in Idaho. When these monuments were created, they did the worst that you can do with a monument which is hand them over to the park service. The park service then puts park rules on them and cuts out hunters. The order is guided by an idea that unregulated hunting is incompatible-- sorry, the park service perspective is that regulated hunting is somehow incompatible with monument status, which is totally bogus. And the order confronts this head on. It says, I have determined that appropriately managed hunting would not put the objects of historic and scientific interest that these monuments protect at risk. Boom. It's like, it's flawless. The only flaw it has is that it didn't strip gates of the Arctic, the gates of the Arctic National Park away from the park service. Are you familiar with craters of the Moon? Yes. It's like very barren land. Sure. A lot of it feels like how many elk or deer are actually going to be killed there? Single digits. It doesn't matter. I'm just saying. Do you think some dude hunting is going to mess up those rocks? No. There's no reason. There's no reason that they should have ever gone and said, you know what's not compatible with all these really hard rocks? It's hunting. It doesn't matter. To say that it's opened up like hundreds of thousands of acres in Idaho to hunting would be like, well, now we're going to let people elk hunt in Florida. You know? No, it's not like that. There's just like, you think, I don't really, I'm not even like interested in your opinion on this. To be frank, it doesn't matter. Why would you have excluded in the first place? If there's nothing there, especially, yeah, go for it. It's just like, okay, there's not going to be a lot of elk and deer killed there. I'll tell you what, if you came and said to me, hey, you know what, we're going to for a year give you exclusive access to this hundreds of thousands of acres. I'm going to go kill a boon and crack at Mildred. Somebody's going to. Yeah. Yes. It doesn't matter. It's not your call to make. These are going to be the good old days of craters of the moon hunting. It's up for like these next couple seasons. Mildred returns of the moon is like a geologic feature. I'm talking like a little crystal sitting there on the pedestal. It's a geological feature miles of lava rock lava rock. I see what you're saying Spencer, but Mildred elk and coyotes roam the area. Pronghorn's also crossed the monument. Predators include bobcats mountain lions, red foxes, and badger Spencer. What are you saying doesn't matter? I'm guessing the state already has their boundaries drawn for units this year. Like I would assume no big game is going to be killed there in 2026, but I don't know. Might miss the season. Yeah. But it's it's great news because it is bullshit that hundred. got pushed out of those areas. It has no impact has no impact. Okay, there's all there's here's another thing. It's a funny one to choose. That's all there's 150 national monuments or something to be like. Okay, go hunt craters of the moon. All right, I expect more to come. Okay, I expect more to come. Like I said, a really good move, but I just been explaining to me that it would take an act of Congress, gate to the Arctic national park should have never been handed to the park service ever. It's a park that gets about like a visitor a year. I was reading this being like, please, please, please. But someone said it's not it's not an executive order thing. Castle mountains, I'm not familiar with. Maybe that place is crawling with them. I got a friend. I have a dear friend. And one day I was trying to explain to him. Covered gone. This is what the segment's going too long. And one day I was explaining him. I was trying to explain him. He's like, he's like, he's like a absolute. He's like a Republican absolutist. And I was trying to explain him one time. I'm like, yeah, because there's a lot of issues where there's a lot of issues where Democrats tend to have our side on habitat protections. And like, and I get it, I get it. But it's just more complicated than what you're making it. And he said to me, I'll never agree with what you're saying. He says, Democrats have taken away from me everything in this world that I love. And when he told me the things that he loved, one of them was hunting the Mojave Desert. Okay. So no matter who's, whether you got Republicans or Democrats, there's always little gifts they can give you the same way when you're a kid. You know what to go to your mom about and you know what to go to to your dad about. Right? You learn. This would be a good thing to go to my mom about. This would be the kind of thing I go to my dad about. Republicans and Democrats are like that. Hunters and angers, ones your mom, ones your dad. This is the, I don't want to say the dad stuff. This is the one of them stuff. Where are we? I'm trying to move fast. All right. Here's the potential rub. Here's a potential rub. Allow for the construction repair and maintenance of infrastructure that provides access to federal land for the purpose of outdoor recreation and wildlife management. The second thought here, that is followed up by this line. Improve public access to difficult to access federal lands and waters by prioritizing practical access opportunities. Then list good things. It lists, including voluntary access easements, land exchanges, cooperative agreements with state and local governments, and other tools that respect private property rights. Here's the only area in all this stuff that could be causing trouble because I would hate for the sentiment here to get hijacked by people who just want more roads and they'll get those roads anyway they can get them. If someone's like, dude, I want to build roads because I have in my mind that we're going to do a mine down the road. I'm just like a pro-road guy. I look at wilderness as wasted real estate. They might look and go like, oh, sweet. Yeah, that's, I'm going to tie my shit into this. Yeah, attacking the like the federal wilderness area program, like scary. But it's not. I know if you're, if you're an eye, that makes me nervous, but there's nothing in here that says that's what's going to happen. It doesn't have to say it. It's the only, like I said, this is either 100% good news or it's 99% good news. And I said, where to the 1% that's the, that's the sentence that I'm like, I don't know. I don't know. It's Steve Ronella here and it is white-tail week at meat eater. That's right. The most anticipated week of the year, white-tail week at meat eater. Both seasons are open, boxer-making, rubs, and all week we're going deep on the most hunted big game animal in America. We're also running the ultimate white-tail giveaway that the sort of, the premier part of this package is you win a hunt with Mark Kenney and Jordan Bud at Jordan Bud's family ranch in Nebraska where I have hunted. It is great hunting. Here's a good one. This is just like a, okay. Encourage the use of qualified volunteers to manage wildlife populations in invasive species. Great. Put hunters into the game. When you got, when you're hiring sharp shooters to go kill white-tails in suburban areas because the suburban people are afraid of dudes hunting deer with their bows, screw them. Or when they're trying to get mountain goats out of certain parks, you got jumped through all these hoops, all these different programs of like if you have hunters that want to go do it, let hunters that want to go do it do the work rather than paying government agents to go do it. Put the stuff in people's freezers instead of putting in landfills. Sure. There's some other stuff. There's some great stuff for veterans in here. So that permit the use of traditional lead ammunition? Oh, did I miss that one? I'm assuming that's directed at like wildlife refugees where you can't, but you're ahead of me. No, I mean, I know. You jumped way ahead, I thought. Authorize the use of assistive technology on access trails and hunting locations, okay? Handicap restrictions like a veteran that's a double amputee having access opportunities to do. When people say assistive technology, that is technology is meant to support handicapped individuals. Who's going to argue against that? It's good news. It's good news for veterans and others. Permit the use of traditional lead ammunition and tackle. Pretty much yes. Pretty much yes. The fishing sinker thing is a joke. The fishing sinker thing's a joke. There are some areas where there are some areas and condor recovery areas. There are some areas where we should not be using lead ammunition and condor recovery areas because when you have such a small population of birds, a couple of those birds dying from lead is a population level impact. Where you have a demonstrable population level impact from consuming lead, lead should be looked at and restriction should be considered where its population level impact. But if it's a wildlife refuge in Nebraska, it says you got to use non-led ammunition for deer hunting. That's kind of when no one can point to any population level impact and be like cars hit more hawks than get killed by lead ammunition, but we're not talking about banning cars. There's another one that's just really like this must be someone. There's one of these in here that's got to be that someone just got a case of the ass about something. Listen to this one. This is got to be coming from some guy that had like someone's ear and he's like you know what burns my ass because listen to this one. Agriculture, the secretary of agriculture shall review high demand forest service administered river access lotteries and shall initiate the reform of such lotteries to prioritize US citizens including prior unsuccessful applicants and prohibit the use of automatic computer entries into the lot of lottery. Amen. It's ridiculous that Americans are waiting in line for permits to float their own rivers and those permits are going to foreigners. 100%. But it's just again, it's got to be someone with just he's there's some dude that can't get a can't get a grand canyon permit and he's like how in the world is some dude from Paris floating out there river. That's what I'm saying about craters of the moon. There's some guy who knows about a 400 inch bowl like one of a dozen elk that lives there. He's like you know we should actually last month. It burns his ass. It burns his ass. He's going to get that that whopper bowl. But I still like that stuff. There's one about it to be long time max the one and only max bar the smartest man in the duck swamps track this one down for me. There's one about season setting for migratory waterfowl. It's largely clear. It's a clerical issue. I don't want to he reached out to some contacts one of the contacts. I didn't tell him I was going to read his thing. I'm not going to say his name. One of Max's contacts in the duck conservation world said to Max this morning. My understanding is this just cuts out basically the way I don't want to read his thing because it's long. Basically migratory bird seasons always get canceled every year and they have to be reset every year and it creates this whole clerical issue. It's cleaning up a clerical. It's cleaning up a season setting behind the scenes paperwork issue that isn't going to be felt by waterfowl hunters. It's just an annoyance. Here's a big one though. Maybe not the biggest one. Maybe the biggest one. Within a year of this order. I don't know why it takes a year. Within a year of this order, the secretary of the interior shall encourage state fish and wildlife agencies to promote and expand Sunday hunting opportunities on state and federal lands. Amen. That's just a joke. I understand it as states have taken steps to loosen Sunday hunting restrictions. Just can be a lag where those restrictions are sort of encoded into land management agencies and a state might loosen and the federal or state management agency might not follow suit quickly. Like their Sunday restrictions stay after the states goes away, but that's just that stuff has to be just like flat out Sunday hunting restrictions just have to go away. They will. They're going away. Throw in a new generation of hunters and two years got no secretary of labor, secretary of education. They got 90 days to clean up messes they've created about federal education funding for archery and 100 education programs in schools. One of the things they're talking about is this whole like this whole anti-gun thing is created as a problem that like you can't train kids and hunter safety in schools because somehow something to do with dumb thing with guns, yeah, that's got to go away. I took my hunter's head was through my school. It was very easy to do. You did a hunter's head through school within 180 days of the order identify opportunities incentives to assist states and cultivating hunting traditions among American youth and veterans and again, opportunities and adaptive sports grant program. So yes, helping disabled handicapped individuals have hunting opportunities, promoting robust game species populations, all kinds of good stuff in here, helping people, helping landowners with voluntary removal or reductions of barriers to wildlife movement and habitat connectivity. He's got a rancher, he's got antiquated fencing, he's got whatever. It's a barrier to wildlife habitat. He wants it cleaned up, doesn't have the means to get it cleaned up. Let's get it cleaned up. Reduction of invasive species, habitat degradation, disease and other factors contributing to population declines. So just getting after it on taking care of some of the stuff. The details are missing, the money is missing, but the directives are clear, the directives are good. Let's carry it out. Targeted management, here's a tricky one. I'm surprised that like the Guardian and Washington Post aren't having a total shit fit about this one. Targeted management of predators, competing species and other population limiting factors. Okay. Use of prescribed fire, vegetation management, water development, grazing, agricultural practices, appropriate habitat management tools. And seeking voluntary agreements with landowners and agricultural producers around habitat improvements. There's a big thing about increasing wild game donation, it's just not my thing. That one's way cool. I eat that stuff. What's that? That one's way cool. Okay. Tell everybody about it. Well, they promote that wild game should be given to schools and fed the kids. Yeah. Emerging emergency food assistance program. That's good. You would help with the white tail deer over population issue. Well, that's what they talk about in the next one. Okay. No, you're right. It does. I'm sorry. I should have been more enthusiastic because even the words are carefully chosen. They're saying use pitman Roberts and funds to manage hyper abundant populations of wildlife, especially white tail deer. Through activities that facilitate the donation and processing of wild game for consumption and schools and food banks. Okay. You're right. I'll just get toward the end. I'm very aware of how much time I burned up. That's good stuff. I just think it's like a creative thing. A lot of this is like feels kind of common sense like, yeah, but it should have always been that way. That's why we're those sharpshooters do what's happened to the meat from the sharpshooters. Probably nothing. Yeah. This is fun. And as much as in these areas that have hyper abundant white tail populations to the point where it's causing habitat degradation and disease transmission, the more you can lubricate the wheels for people to get those deer off the landscape and get put to good use. Sure. You're right. I don't know why I poop hooded. And again, the cost of publications or shall be born by the Department of Interior. Commerce had to pay for the other email. Interior pays for this email. Cool. On to the wolf desk. Take my glass. We hit Molly's pack. I don't know. How long ago was that? Month ago? A week ago, Molly's pack is Yellowstone National Park's last original wolf pack from the introduction that occurred. Their lineage is from the original introduction in the mid 90s. I don't want to get into it, but let me at least get through this part. Molly's pack is mostly, they left months ago, they left and went on to public land in the Shoshone National Forest, five adults, five pups and the Shoshone National Forest and these absorb a range. They're named after a U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service Director Molly Beatty who died of cancer during that original introduction. And everyone was worried. They left that their hunters were going to get them. Old bad kids were very up in arms that Wyoming should somehow change their wolf hunting regulations to like carve out exceptions for Molly's pack. People were going crazy about it. You imagine how stupid it is to say, oh, Bob the elk is over there. We need to change the state's hunting rules so that nothing happens to Bob the elk. Oh, I'm like, for sure, it was, it was crazy. It would never happen. No, it's like ridiculous. Anyway, they're mostly back in the park. Five adults, five pups were about six months old and that's when they're like old enough to kind of cruise and travel with the adult wolf. So they're back in there. The worry from the wolf advocates was that Wyoming's wolf hunting season opened on September 15th and they were still kind of out there outside of the park. It's interesting to me that they're quick these wild there's wolf out because very quick to point out it comes up all the time that Molly's pack matriarch is 12 years old. So like one of the oldest wolves on record, but some for some reason that makes them even more special. She's walking dead. Right. She's two and a half times older than the average lifespan of the wolf. So cool for her, but I don't think, you know, you carve out exceptions for animals based on how old they are. Yeah, I'd be like, it's like Biden should stay present because he's so old. So the local hunt area, do we have that map? Yeah, there it is. So they were in the Clarks for wolf hunt area and sunlight basin reach that's four wolf limit within days and got shut down. So that, you know, they went back in the park, they made it back without getting killed. I didn't get the picture, but in an article I read, there was a picture of the trailhead in sunlight basin packed with hunters, horse trailers, like they were in there looking for them. No. Yeah. Because that one dude was offering bounties on hunters. Yeah. Well, no, no, you're there's the other dude who who like what a bounty on publicly said he is going after the matriarch. He's going to get the mate, which I thought was kind of kind of weird. Are you serious? Like dudes were like, but it was also general big game or not, it was archery season. Yeah, but like it was packed like I'm not saying it's not true. Right. Right. I believe you. So the Wyoming Fish and Game Agency, they like to point out that wolf hunting is a notoriously difficult pursuit on average Wyoming's hunters devote about 500 days of effort per animal they kill, which I mean, there's 500 days worth of hunter effort for every month to get killed. Like, so that means like you're spending how many years trying to get one because you're not hunting 500 days. No, that's not you're reading that wrong. Oh, I got you. So 500 hunters one day or yeah, like 500 days. So if you look up all the days of hunter effort and all the wolves killed, you have five like hunters collectively are spending 500 days of yield for every wolf killed. However, statewide, 10 of the 22 wolves that can be killed in the trophy management area that surrounds the park, they were killed in the first week of the season. So, the. they got after it pretty quick but no one got this big famous wolf no one got her or kids or brothers or sisters so if they stay in the park they're off limits but who knows they may run into trouble I had said it on the show and then I saw it quoted in the Idaho statesman or something when it was like man I don't like Wyoming can't capitulate but I bet this and I was like I hope those wolves go backward it came from right just to avoid all the BS yeah it would it would be like national level no my god craziness if it if it did happen it'd be like that sees the lion program all over the man right yeah right you know and if one of the if one gets shot near the border of the park I you know maybe that won't be such a big deal but we'll see what happens if a collared one gets shot it's gonna people are gonna raise hell about it so there you go that that kind of saga is kind of over for right now yeah we'll talk about it again in like nine months yeah yeah we're going from Yellowstone National Park all the way to Pennsylvania yeah and we're gonna talk about elk that we're introduced to Pennsylvania from Yellowstone National Park oh what a strong tie a little detail there man um michael scabbarla of portmatilla Pennsylvania killed a big old giant bull elk my goodness diddy um elk was at eight by eight typical that scored 400 and green at green scored 428 inches this this elk was taken on September 15th during the archery season and he shot it with a crossbow and it's potentially well it I say potentially because it's green scored it hasn't hasn't had the the time to dry yet but it's gonna be the news it's not gonna shrink 50 inches the last the previous holder get it with a bobo or was he using the crossbow uh I don't know that but the previous you shattered that yeah the previous archery state record for for Pennsylvania's 381 low over 381 which this is green scored at 428 the by-time it shrinks I don't know how I don't know how many inches it loses when it shrinks but it's gonna blow that out of the water and it's it's gonna be the number one typical firearms category elk too which is 407 inches cow which is surprising that the it's only 407 for firearms we were talking earlier that the next world record could definitely come out of Pennsylvania yep yep um but so the for the archery season this year there was only um what was it fifth there's 15 bull tags for the archery season um we're issued to 50,000 lottery applicants god that's why I don't draw it yeah that's why I was wondering why I don't draw that um fill hit hit the next photo so this is I showed that one earlier so you didn't comment on his his uh apparel steed it's earlier get it once again dude that's the greatest suit in the world yeah this photo was sent to me through a friend um that that this one was I think kind of making his rounds but um yeah giant elk oh but fill if you go to the video oh sure this is a bull that I got trail cam video of on my family's property damn that's the world which I think will blow that one out of the water yeah it is not on this trail camera the set has set up on his grandpa's place it is non stop and his grandpa's been putting in since they brought elk into the state look at that thing that was two weeks ago yep dude it's just like you can't keep track of all these bulls come no let's call pond cam yep that's pond cam but yeah those bulls come in there to to wallow and drink and Seth gets videos them coming and just ripping bugles in front of the camera like insane bulls that you'll never see I know I'm I'm waiting right now for a video to come through of a bull that's just bugling right in front of the camera that I was hoping to come through before yeah like for this bunch of like I don't know three 90s 400 inch bulls yep but this bull was killed in center county which is same county where that trail cam video was um and oh let's see he was it was so this guy's a professor of Penn State he didn't have a whole lot of time and and drew a tag of lifetime so he went with a guide um trophy wreck lodge and they hunted for a couple days ran into several bulls bugling the one morning and this bull ended up coming in he shot it 40 some yards with crossbow dude I'd give up two of my kids one of them which one's man I don't want to get into that yeah I don't want him to feel bad I'd give up two of my kids I'd keep one give two away from one of the amount of tags um yeah and you know the the general or you know the regular firearm season is yet to happen in Pennsylvania so I'd be curious to see if this one gets this record gets broken it's possible yep wearing a vintage camel pattern that I can't identify I've been trying to reverse google image search end for like 10 minutes and I can't come up with who the maker that is you know be sweet if he gave us that onesie for the auction house bodies oh yeah that'd be great like if he would if you're listening that might be the only camel he owns if you're listening no here's a deal what trade or listen if you send us that onesie or the auction house bodies we will send you a complete we'll send you complete cold weather and complete warm weather kit uh-huh if you'll send us that onesie for the auction house bodies yeah that would be great I need to identify what this pattern is you know so if you're listening I have a deal for you all right we're gonna end the show with an interview with uh Montana representative former Navy seal Ryan Zinkie who's gonna talk about he came into the studio um the other studio and we sat and talked about something called a river runs through it act and the conversation mostly gets into the question of um how can you find compromise solutions for vexing land management issues so check that out see you next week it's stevenella here and it is white tail week at me either that's right the most anticipated week of the year white tail week at me either both seasons are open boxer making rubs and all week we're going deep on the most hunted big game animal in america we're also running the ultimate white tail giveaway that the sort of the premier part of this package is you win a hunt with mart canning and jordan bud at jordan bud's family ranch in the braska where i have hunted jordan is cool as hell her family's ranch is cool as hell it is great hunting you're gonna have a blast plus yet gear free gear from over 20 brands so keep an eye on me either channels all week and head to the me either store to sign up no purchase necessary get all your rules at the me either store all right everybody we're jumping over to a conversation with uh ryan zincie so ryan zincie's a congressman for western montana former secretary of the interior retired navy seal commander um throughout his career this guy has been very tangled up in public lands issues outdoor issues um he's joining us here in the twilight of his congressional career which ends what this january it does and you're free man in january uh i am free of this vocation free of this vocation january uh we had a representative zincian before he was theodore Roosevelt conservation partnerships yeah he won the james d range award in 2025 and i was present there as a board member um and and actually was there to help hand him the ward and that was around his work on public lands advocacy during some uh important times around public lands this year rock him out out foundations excellence in advocacy that's 2026 reward and award and safari club internationals legislature legislate or of the year award in 2026 so garnering a lot of recognition for his work on public lands issues from the hunting and angling communities and what we're going to talk about right now is a thing that i've been reading about i don't fully totally understand it all but it's been passed around a bit is the a river runs through it act absolutely tell me about this and i know from that this issue is a long has had a long simmer it has had a long issue over 20 years going to making around celilake the swan big barrel wilderness uh scapegoat and then then it combined the link in area that they've been working about 13 years okay and this is a made in montana solution you know and and you we live in an political environment where it's so partisan that we fight about everything but in montana you know our public lands the debate has always been on how to management between how to manage it between in the mirrors that, you know, wilderness. And. and let's say the Pinchos with multiple use, and then you have extremes on both sides on it. But this is a solution that looks at landscape and understands the importance of the outdoors. The reason why we live in the West is because we have outdoor experience. And we were given the outdoors experience largely from the great ones, Roosevelt and Show and Mirror, looked at the landscape inside. This needs to be protected and cultivated for the next generation. So what this bill does is it takes a look at wilderness areas, it takes a look at the wilderness study areas. And when you have the wilderness society in the same room as the snowmobiles, you got the backpackers, you got the outfitters, you got the logging guys, and they all came together and said, you know what, the outdoor experience is different for all of us, but all of us understand the importance of it. So can we look at better ways of management, and so we had Tracy Manning from the wilderness society, and we had the snowmobile guys sitting in the same room and said, you know what, that's worked together. From the snowmobile perspective, they want public access, and they want corridors rather than going to point aid and turning around and coming right back to the same trail. They want trails connect. Well, you know, so do a lot of people, so do a lot of people that do, you know, skiing and hiking and et cetera. And on our forest themselves, I think there was a concurrence that we shouldn't allow them to burn down every year all the time. Can we manage our forest better? So from a logging perspective, you know, you can go in in harvest timber. You can cut a road in temporarily if you get to do a prescribed burn. Because a prescribed burn, so it doesn't get out of hand, requires safety equipment. And so when you do it, you do it right with the right science, the right people, the right equipment, you get the burn done, and then you can remove the road if necessary. But a lot of it focuses on public access. - So what were the, but on that thing there, what were the wilderness society people in the room for? Well, because we looked at areas, remember when a wilderness study area-- - Yeah. - That's what I want to talk about. - This could confuse people, but I'm sure you can explain it. - Yeah, wilderness study area is administrative, in, you know, a category not by Congress, but as a wilderness study area, administratively put in place. But you have to manage it as if it is a wilderness. - Yeah. - And Congress is the only one that can designate a wilderness. - Yeah. - Congress actually is gonna do their job and look at some wilderness study areas that were probably, well, according to this bill, they looked at 'em carefully, they should not be designated as a wilderness. But you can do backpacking, you can do outfitting, you can cut a trail, you can manage the forest better than let it burn down. There's areas around the scapegoat and around the Bob Marshall that makes sense, the wilderness study areas, that's permanently put this in part of the wilderness, because that's what wilderness is for. - Yeah, can I button on this, 'cause this is important. I just want to make sure people get, people that live outside of the west get this distinction, where wilderness with the capital W is like federally designated wilderness. So when we say wilderness, they don't just mean like, the woods or the mountains, but like, it's a federal designation. - And we're gonna manage it as a wilderness, and no wheels, no combustion engines. There's a lot of restrictions on a wilderness, because primarily lightest touch, let nature take its course. - Yeah, but within that, for years now, we've had these study areas, what was the term use of a wilderness study area? - Yeah, the study areas, and there's sort of, and I don't know if it would be, if it's how you would describe it, but a lot of the study areas are sort of in limbo. And there are plenty of people who would like to see all the study areas go the other way. There are plenty of people who would like to see all them go to wilderness, and then there are the pragmatic ones who envision that at some point in time, there will be some compromises made. - That's right. - And they will ease into, that they will be moved into the wilderness category, or they'll be moved into a more general national forest category. And so here and there, and now, and then you see little chunks of this puzzle get resolved because the limbo can't last. - It should not last, but it should be based on, and this is a Montana made solution. So you had the local ranchers, you had the timber folks, you had the snowmobiles, you had the wilderness field, you had the recreational people all come together and say, you know, we honor the landscape of these two important areas. So how do we make sure that we can harvest timber? I can make sure the previous wilderness study areas, how do we make sure that they're protected and manage because there's a reason why they became wilderness study areas to study, to determine whether or not they meet the requirements and conditions to actually be a wilderness. Congress makes that decision. But out in the last, what can happen is you have a superintendent that puts something in a wilderness study area, you know, a designation, and then it stays there forever. - Yeah. - And people get uneasy about how it's going to break. - Well, and there's restrictions. So you won't be able to take a vehicle in, you won't be able to take a snowmobile in, you won't take a wheel in, or if you were to do a prescribed burn, you can't put the safety equipment in. Or if you're going to do trail maintenance, you're not going to be, you're not going to allow to use a chainsaw, for instance. As you'd have to do a buckseye, it takes a lot of buckseye to clear a trail after a windstorm, as you know. So what this does is it looks at a landscape view. It brings corridors for wildlife movement back and forth. It looks at trailheads to make sure the trail's connect between the different categories of land. But it really is a solution, it's not perfect, but this 20 years of effort of people working together. And how do you break through the partisan lines? Well, you find something that you're passionate about on both sides. And then you get together, and then you have to work through trust, because now you're working together for a common goal, and you're going to have to trust your groups in there to make sure they articulate what's important to them, but also they're wanting to give a little. And in every case in this bill, which is the river runs through it, that paints a picture as well, is that there's something for everybody. Someone gave up a little in order to gain a lot. And again, it's about understanding how important the outdoor legacy is. And I think this can be a model for naturally use, as there are issues in Utah, there's issues in Idaho, in the West, there's always issues between a lot of it is how to manage our lands. I think this is a pretty good model of how to constructively get to a solution that benefits everybody. With this arrangement, as you're talking to people about it, you got guys like me, and I would have been if I was emperor of the nation, I would have just from my perspective, I would have said, like, I'm going to take all experimental wilderness, and I'm just going to make it all wilderness. I'm a big wilderness guy. You got other people who would have wanted to go the other way and like ditch it all. If you look at the, and strike in this compromise, who do you feel of the people that are still not happy? Who is margins? But who is most not happy? I would say most not happy, the people that believe the federal government shouldn't have a federal estate at all. - Okay, and then on the other side is that public lands are really not for the public, therefore other species. - Yeah. - You have those two extremes. - Yeah. - And each would like their position articulated differently, but from here, I understand. - But I gave you an example. The wilderness society, I don't want a wilderness study area, looked at it, and said, no, this is going to be wilderness. This is our position. The snow bill is that, you know what, we would like to transit across this, that connect our trails. Now those are two different views, you know what happened? They came together. They said, you know what? This is a great corridor to bring back and forth. And all by the way, this other area, we're gonna designate that and connect it to the Bob Marshall because it makes sense to protect that watershed. And then on designation of, let's say, outfitting. Well, outfitters need to go in there, but they also need a trail clear. So they can use trail clearing method during the season, and to make sure that the trail and public access is there. And that's an important part of it looking at the landscape, but in the day, these two areas are special. You know, Lewis and Clark had much the same view in a lot of these different areas. And now what we've done is we've looked at what's important, how to manage it and make sure that your children and your children, children's children can have the same landscape view that was given to us, that Lewis and Clark shared. - Understood. I think that when it comes to the kind of compromise you're talking about, kind of the best way is articulated to me down the road. And this isn't so much the particulars of this arrangement, but this idea of compromise would be, people would look at the wilderness study areas. And you'd be like, well, why not just wait? Why not just wait until the right moment when they can all be wilderness? And people go, you might wait for that moment and wind up, you wind up in the opposite moment, right? Like, waiting isn't a guarantee that it's gonna go how you want it. And so people, I've had a lot of people explain to me, a great compromise. Now, where everybody can have a voice is better than the alternative of trusting that you're gonna hit where it's gonna go all your way. 'Cause then it might go all the other way. So if we can find opportunities to find a solution that is acceptable to a broad group, like there's an argument that those are the moments to seize upon. - Well, and again, we were given what we have. I think the challenge in the next 100 years is how to manage it. Next 100 years is looking at wildlife corridors to make sure winter ranges connect to summer ranges. - Correct. - To make sure that you have movement, but also public access. And on some of these wilderness study areas, they're managed for a healthy forest, but the consensus was all groups left and right and middle, don't wanna see these catastrophic forest fires, burn at the scale they're burning and the heat. I mean, in some cases, these forests are burning so high, you're not gonna see a regrowth of forest for generations. - Yeah. - They have sterilized the soil. Is that really necessary? Well, let's look at the American Conservation Ethic. Best science, best practices, greatest good, longest term. That's the American Conservation Ethic. So how do we, how do we get there so we don't have these catastrophic fires? Well, we'll look at the geography and see, you know what, this area needs to be thin. Do we wanna do it mechanically? Do we wanna do it harvesting timber? Or is it prescribed burned more appropriate? What a prescribed burn. Let's make sure it's a prescribed burn and not out of control burn. Like we did with a Wheeler home in the Glacier Park and they had a recent fire in the Grand Canyon, which burned up historic sites and buildings. I don't think we wanna go there again. So we can use best science and best practices and come up with a solution. So we have a healthy forest in those areas that need to be protected in a different degree in wilderness, lightest possible footprint. You can still hunt, you know, you can graze in a lot of wilderness. But sometimes grazing isn't gonna reduce the load of dead and dying timber and fuel. So maybe a prescribed burn is more appropriate. Again, when you do a prescribed burn, you should do the right safety equipment to make sure it stays in that prescribed box and doesn't get out of hand. And that may require a temporary road to be put in. A temporary road could be removed after the prescribed burn. At least you can get the equipment in there or evacuate, you know, the firefighters in the ground, you know, doing that burn. So tell me how something like this, tell me how something like this works from this point because you go in, you go in and there's this long simmering issue, people want it resolved. You talk to the local people and get these different user groups that you're talking in. And you're like, I understand you ideally would want this and you on the other side would ideally want this. Here's a, here's a workable solution that addresses everybody's concerns, then what? You give it a name, you know? - Well, you put it in the bill. It's an interest as a representative, you represent. So when you represent, you not only represent the people that voted for you, but you also represent the people that didn't vote for you. You represent the people that will never vote for you. So it's important as you represent people, 'cause it is about people, you listen. And when such a diverse group of people, again, from snowmobiles and motorcycle guys, to the wilderness, to timber guys, to outfitters, they're all saying the same, same beat, the same message. You know, it's time to then take that those elements and when you put it into a bill, what does that mean? That means you look at the legal review, you look at what other laws it affects. So you put it in a bill that's ready to pass. And in this particular case, it's more Montana-centric. So how do you get it passed? Well, there's two senators. We have two congressmen, you know, all the should get behind the bill and all the should convince our peers that this is important to them too. Because that's the part that seems hard to picture is that you then gotta go to D.C. And there's 98 other senators. They're not really aware of the issue. And there's 300, what I don't know. And a couple of the likely will be opposed to anything that's then federal and other than divesting. Sure. And then you got, I don't even know the number anymore. Hundreds of people that are otherwise unfamiliar and you gotta say, "Hey, can I get everybody's attention on this thing?" Well, you didn't know about till yesterday or today and then make time for it. Well, I'll give you an example. Never in my life did I ever think that public lands would be at risk of being sold. The argument and the debate has always been about how to manage it, but never divesting on scale. Well, it came up this Congress. There was an effort that nearly succeeded in selling off a lot of our public lands without public input review, all those types of things. And taking a step back, why? I thought it would be easy. I led the charge to save it. And I thought it was gonna be like going up San Juan Hill, I had a bunch of guys behind me, a little thin. And because public lands is different from different people. If you live on the east, and you say, we're not talking about our national parks. Don't worry our national parks are free of this. Totally different cities. They're protected. Well, if you're living the east, a lot of your public access in public lands is parks, 'cause they don't have the huge tracks of BLM land, beer of land management land or US forest service land. So primarily, your public, your outdoor experience is national parks. Well, that's great. But when you're out west, national parks are a part of the outdoor experience. And certainly not the whole. In Montana, you have more forest service than you do park land. And when you add the CMR, Charles M. Russell and BLM land, a lot of Montana's land is not in a park category. And but I was surprised at how few initially picked up the charge on the look we're not gonna sell our public land. Now, truth, when I was secretary, I divested, I added, I subtracted, I exchanged. But the process was public input, looked at it. If a school needed to expand a gym to say in New Mexico, okay, that 40 acres makes more sense for a school. Or there was a runway that needed a little more runway 'cause the jets are bigger. Okay, but those are, there's a case by case. Yeah, and there's a process for that. There's a whole process that looks at whether it's subsurface and Indian rights and all those type of things. But I think our public lands, you know, this is, I think why it turns out I came back to Congress for this purpose. And God had had a mission for me. And the mission in this case was to lead the charge and make sure our public lands, you know, and the next generation are as strong as they were in the last generation. When you, there are some very vocal republicans who are generally antagonistic to the public estate. Like philosophically, philosophically, they're troubled by that the federal government would own so much land or own such a heavy proportion of certain states. Often they will express a frustration about that on these places, management tools, and I can mean a bunch of things to different people. They'll often express that like management isn't occurring. They're not being properly managed. Right. If you look at a social agitimate, but be the way I'm saying, if you look at, I guess the question is, how honest are they? 'Cause if you look at like what you're doing here, where you're looking at this river runs through it act and you're looking at management issues and you're looking at fire mitigation issues, timber harvest, timber reduction, right? Does that really, do you think that you'd have some colleagues who would look and be like, yes, that's what I mean? Or do you feel that they're just using that as a red herring? Well, let's say an example of Libby Montana. You're in a sea of trees as far as-- as far as the eye can see, and you can't harvest a oneable. Law suit after lawsuit after lawsuit, judges that would side on for grizzly bears, even though grizzly bears have recovered. Yeah, they like cuts, but they just, they, they, they, they don't look at timber as a legitimate purpose in the woods. Yes. And in this case, we had the timber guys going to look, you know, the, those, those, those trees are going to come out of the woods one way or another. Yeah. You can mechanically bring them out. You can prescribe burn or you can have these catastrophic burns. Yeah. So wouldn't it be better? Wouldn't it be better to manage how to remove the timber or wear, look at the, the, the interfaces where you might have a fire, thin that area out, because, because when the forest burns, well, you know, you know, I fish, you fish, you know, a lot of sediment will go in those streams. That's not good. Yeah. And the habitat that we're all trying to preserve burns to the ground. That's not good either. Yeah. And in some cases, these forests are so hot, it sterilizes the soil. Generationally, you won't have recovery of, of canopy. Yeah. And you get, to add to that, you get situations where you have this massive monoculture and you don't have edge habitats and all these. Absolutely. And the disease that runs through, if it's a, you know, monotree out there, you have disease that affects a tree, then the whole forest is going to go. Yeah. You know, there, but there is a frustration out there. They watch our public access to be, you know, diminished. They look at the forest burning up a year after year, after year, lack of management, sometimes lack of leadership. And I understand the frustration. You know, if you're, if you're on a county road and all of a sudden, you have BLM with a lights on and you're thinking, well, there must be a lost kid someplace or maybe it's a, it's a bear they're going to warn you about. No, they're going to give me a speeding ticket on a county road. You know, a lot of people deservely so are a little upset about that. But I get the analogy of, of, okay, you have a hotel and it's terrible management. Well, you don't sell the hotel. Yeah. You get new management and you get a, you get a constructive way to manage your forest, you know, back to where they're healthy again. I think everyone wants to walk through a forest is healthy. Some forest walking through should be the lightest touch because nature has its bounty and glory. So, you know, that's why we have wilderness. Now, should we let, you know, Bob Marshall burn down the ground all the time and well, you know, that's a discussion that we need to have on, on fire management on it. In this particular case, we looked at, for instance, wilderness study areas and said, you know what, a road or a prescribed burn or a management of trails, I think makes more sense. Making sure that there's a parking lot someplace where people can park and have access to go into, that makes sense. In some cases, you know, some of the roadless rules should have been a roadless rule. Well, let's look at it, but let's look at case by case. Let's not do these broad canvases of, we're just going to put in roads or we're going to remove roads in every inch of federal state. Now, this used best practices, greatest good, longest term, but good science, why do you need to road in there? Should it be during hunting season? Should have a covert. Should have used before fire. Should we maintain it in case of a fire? All those things need to be considered to make the right decision. Oh, can I do one last super quick question? Yeah. We'll do as quick as possible. Chris, what's going to happen? Is this thing going to pass? Are you going to get? Is it going to come up for a vote? And it'll pass? Look, oh, we have two Navy SEALs. We had Tim, she, he, the senator, and so we don't give up. But I think this has enough momentum behind it and enough of passionate people that have worked on, you know, 20 years. Fairly confident the end of the day, this president or next, will sign a river run through it. Great. Thanks for coming on. Thanks for explaining that. I'd love to hear from, you know, someone that's been involved for such a long time on natural resources issues and explaining all that process. People come together. I got to, you're knocking out of the park. You deliver a message that's got to be delivered and people are enthusiastic about you and your everything. Thanks. Thanks for being with me. And I know you've got to run. So we'll let you go. It's Steve Ranella here and it is Whitetail Week at Me Eaters. That's right. The most anticipated week of the year, Whitetail Week at Me Eaters. Both seasons are open, boxer making rubs, and all week we're going deep on the most hunted big game animal in America. We're also running the ultimate Whitetail giveaway that the sort of the premier part of this package is you win a hunt with Mark Kenning and Jordan Bud at Jordan Bud's family ranch in Nebraska, where I have hunted Jordan is cool as hell. It is great hunting. You're going to have a blast. Plus yet gear free gear from over 20 brands. So keep an eye on Me Eaters channels all week and head to the Me Eaters store to sign up. Get all your rules at the Me Eaters store. This is an I heart podcast guaranteed human.