EP #92- How You Can Use Mental Health Tools to Conquer Your Wellbeing with Varshil Patel, Co-Founder of Therapy Notebooks

[MUSIC] I think we want to keep building our products in a way where we don't only frame these as mental health tools for problems in your life. And we frame them as mental health tools for your everyday. And I think that's been a really big change for me is sort of like thinking about my health as a function of the different integrated parts of my life rather than in a side. Welcome back to another episode of Everyday in Dorfins. A mental health podcast that discusses the importance of finding joy and happiness in everyday life. And Happy New Year. It's a start of a new year. Lots of things to look forward to and lots of amazing new guests on the show. I'm your host Stella Stephanopoulos and this week I am thrilled to kick off 2023 with Varsal Patel who is the co-founder of Therapy Notebooks. Therapy Notebooks is a wellness company that turns evidence-based treatments into accessible and actionable tools for mental health through a variety of self-guided journals and notebooks. In this episode, Varsal chatted about the inspiration behind Therapy Notebooks and the differing purposes for each notebook as they pertain to different types of mental health tools, such as developing strategies for managing your anxiety or depression or even getting better sleep. We also discuss the nuances of therapy and how it's become socialized in our culture, ways to take care of your mental health when categorizing our struggles may not be as straightforward as it seems, and how we can proactively begin to reframe our thoughts to lead our healthiest and happiest lives. I'm super excited to get into this interview, but before we dive right in, I have a brief message from my sponsor, Anchor. Hi, Varsal. Thank you so much for coming on to the podcast. Thanks a lot. Thanks for having me. So it's really ironic, I think, because as someone who hosts a mental health podcast, I actually have never been to Therapy. However, I love the concept of Therapy Notebooks or just the idea around taking Therapy into your own hands and actually writing down your own experiences, while in Therapy, pre- Therapy, post- Therapy, so even though I can't directly relate to maybe what it's like to use a product like Therapy Notebooks while in Therapy session, I really do resonate with the power of writing and sitting down to do self-reflection, so that's something that really caught my eye about Therapy Notebooks. Thank you. I appreciate, well, one, I appreciate you saying that, having me here. And it's funny because I feel like I think interacting with mental health tools is not the same as Therapy, first off, it's not the same as Therapy, but also I don't think you need to have gone to Therapy in order to do that. And I also think that for certain people, or based on where you're, I think it's awesome that more people talk about Therapy, but I also worry sometimes that we've treated it as this badge of approval. It's like, "Oh, I've been to Therapy." That's great. I don't know. That means you're willing to work on yourself. You're willing to be vulnerable. And those things are true. I'm not saying they're not true, but I think we almost have over corrected a little bit into using that as a social badge of approval. And so actually part of the reason I love working on Therapy Notebooks is if they're super helpful if you go to Therapy, but they're also really helpful if you don't for whatever reason, whether that's a financial reason or a personal reason, or I can't find a good therapist reason, which are all super valid. And I think there's, yeah, I think there's a, it's interesting you mentioned that, you led with that, which is like, I don't think there should be any shame around whether you've been to Therapy or not. And even if you never go in your life, it doesn't mean that you haven't worked on yourself. Because I think the forms of mental health care are many fold. And I think we sometimes forget that because Therapy has become sort of this like default answer to a lot of mental health solutions. That's a really good point that you raise as Therapy be coming kind of like this social badge of approval or perhaps like overcorrecting around the value maybe of going to Therapy. I think it's also interesting because like, even if you go to Therapy, maybe like that's not going to quote unquote, solve all of the problems that you're experiencing. Maybe they'll that'll help and it'll be a really productive way to move through some of the challenges that you're experiencing or that you have experienced. But it's not like Therapy is still a quick fix. So I really like that you also brought that up as well. I'd love for you to share with my listeners a little bit more about how you got started with Therapy notebooks. Like what inspired the concept behind building this company and these products? I don't know if you find this with other folks too, but it sort of all, I'll connect the docs backwards, right? Because I feel like that happens for a lot of people. It's like, okay, like these things sort of came together in a way that that makes sense now, but it didn't make sense in the moment. So four years ago, so back in 2019, I had after graduate in college, for the most part, I had worked at different technology companies in New York City. So I was working at like tech startups that I liked and I had great time working at those places. And I tried starting my own company in the education space. I've always been interested in how people work. Like I think I've always been interested in like, how why do humans behave they do? Like how can you help someone like change something about themselves? And I tend to be a relatively, relatively optimistic and hopeful person. And so I've always been driven by this motivation to figure out how can you help more people like create positive change in their lives. Like that's been sort of a broader theme that I've always been excited about. So fast forward to these early career experiences. I'm living in New York with my three roommates at the time, where my close friends from college. And one of them is named Wesley. Wesley and I like kind of talk about like everything, but we especially talk about like how people work and how they behave and why they are the way they are. And then one thing leads to the next and we basically decide to quit our jobs and start something in the mental health space. And this is 2019. There are already certain interesting companies like coming up like headspace is getting more popular, like calm. But there wasn't we felt like there wasn't a lot of innovation in how therapy was being delivered. Like that was our, that was actually where we were starting. It's like, okay, not a lot of innovation, how therapy is being delivered and it feels like a really valuable tool. So we started by trying certain ideas that would make the in-person therapy experience better. So we started to think about like, well, what software or hardware would make that better? We even thought about launching our own clinic. So we started to like think of this idea of launching a hybrid coffee shop plus therapist office. Where like you can be a member and like get a cup of coffee and like hang out, but you also see your therapist there. Anyway, so we had like all these fun crazy ideas that we started testing in New York City. And what happened was that we talked to a lot of people, like just a lot of everyday people, including our friends and friends of friends. But also everyday in the Yorkers and we talked to a lot of therapists. And what started to become more and more clear over time is that there were all these tools that we would learn through therapist or that therapists would tell us about. But that the people we were talking to didn't know that much about these tools. Right, there was this like knowledge or like access gap that we saw. Even for those people that were going to therapy, they'd be like, oh yeah, like I've heard of CBT. You don't really know what it is, but like, you know, I've definitely done it before. And so we're like, can we, can we given that I've been interested in education in the past two? I was like, can we just create educational products? Like can we make educational products that take the most valuable tools that have been researched and studied and used for decades and make them really accessible to people? And naturally the feedback we got was like, oh well, like that's already happening like headspace and mindfulness and what. And we're like, yeah, that's great. It is, it is happening to a certain extent. But like it feels like there's so many tools that are being left out of the conversation. And so that was after a year of experimenting, which I like threw a bunch of things at the wall. And we learned that or we we arrived at that interesting insight. And then we started to make digital courses. So we made digital courses where I was like learn CBT with, you know, ex therapist and and the digital courses did okay. But clearly people are already fatigued by their devices. And we got that feedback a bunch. And so that led us to creating therapy notebooks, creating a very analog really easy to use writing driven product that helps you learn and practice and use different mental health tools. But really just a me to package it. We got the idea of the ground in like early 2020 right before the pandemic and the pandemic hits. And for us, it's helpful because then like therapy notebooks really takes off. But yeah, we sort of saw firsthand like how many people just wanted something that could be helpful for them. The timing, I feel like, couldn't have been better given COVID and so many people getting this wake up call to not only the pandemic that we were living in, but also just like this mental health epidemic. That is so prevalent in our culture. I you made a really interesting comment about people feeling some sort of like burnout from devices even. And I think there's so many benefits to like digital health and this hybrid model of care and therapy. But it's like how far can you push that like to what extent is that going to be beneficial like having everything digitized and virtual. Like there really is so much value in handwriting things or being in person. So was that really like a large driving factor for creating a physical product and notebook that people could write in and journal in. Yeah, definitely. I think like we realize or we saw just firsthand like how. how much easier it was for someone to pick up a book than it was to be like, hey, let me onboard you to a new app or whatnot. I think there's something really interesting about, and there's research around this stuff, right? But of the mental head space you're in when you're using your devices versus when you're not, or when you're in a different space altogether, right? Like it's the same as if people talk about this with spaces often too, right? There are certain spaces where if you've had a lot of difficult experiences or like, that's the space that reminds you of stress, like your office or whatever. Like it's very hard to that same space to become therapeutic for you. And then other spaces become those spaces of feeling better, like your favorite coffee shop or your favorite place to go walk or whatever it is. And I think nature tends to also not be healing in fact on people. And so I think like there's this value to where you are and what you're using that we don't think about a lot because sort of a digital thing is like the default answer. And that's not to say that digital tools aren't helpful that I think are super helpful. But it's true, it's like if I spend all of my day on my phone and my laptop, then like doing a journaling activity on my phone might just feel overwhelming because I'm already spending so much of my time on there. Not to mention how distracting it'll be, right? Like not to mention how distracting it is to like, safe focus on that thing when you know you're gonna get a notification or TikTok right next door on the other app and it's so much easier to like self-sew with using that than it is to use my journaling app. - Yeah, that's a great point. I even think about for myself, if I wanna read a book, like I've never been into, I've never been into like reading things off of like a kindle app on my phone because first of all the screen is so small. And I now associate my phone with my work, my personal life, like my Instagram, like my emails, there's so many things going on, so many notifications or text messages. So how can I feel like I'm in this serene, tranquil environment trying to read a novel on the same device that like carries the entire rest of my life for better or for worse. So that's why I've always gravitated towards like a actual hard copy book or like sitting to eat, you know, you have these different associations. So I think that's a really, you know, clever point that you bring up. Earlier in this interview, you were talking about how therapy notebooks, if you maybe just take away this idea around using it during a therapy session, like really they're, these products that are enabled to, or they're meant to give you a toolkit to enable you with these mental health tools to better your own wellbeing. So can you talk a little bit more about the different types of notebooks that you have with therapy notebooks and how people can use and engage with these notebooks, whether or not they're seeing a therapist or not. Yeah, for sure. I think the simplest way to think about it is each notebook is taking a mental evidence basement of health tool. So a tool that has been shown by research to be effective and it has been approved by clinicians. So we have a set of clinicians we work with to who are like, "Gallon, this is effective. We've seen the research. We've also used this in our, in our own practices and therefore like it's likely that a consumer and every day person would benefit from this." And so each product is really just taking a tool and making it applicable to you or to your life. We have five products right now and they vary in terms of what the tools are, right? So like our anti-anxiety notebook really focuses on teaching you the fundamentals of cognitive behavioral therapy so that you can use cognitive behavioral therapy skills when you're feeling very stressed out or anxious, right? So that's like the very clear focus is like, "Hey, like this is a notebook I can use when I'm feeling stressed out and anxious and I want tools that help me sort of de-escalate those moments or better manage my emotions during those moments." Our Depression guide book is similar except it has five different tools. So we give you five different tools for depression that you can mix and match and try in different ways in order to find what works for you. And then our two workbooks, a sleep workbook and a trauma workbook, both of those are actually programs. So they have tools in them, but those tools are packaged into a program, like an evidence-based program that we deliver to you in Guided notebook form. So those are products that you actually use over five to six weeks at a consistent cadence. Whereas for the anxiety and depression books, you can use them whenever you want. Like they're sort of a use them when you want product. Whereas the other, these other two are taking the tools and presenting them to you in the original Guided sort of program that they were developed with. And then the last one's a therapy journal. And the therapy journal is a set of tools that you can use with therapy. So it's a product that's really intended to help you prepare for and reflect on your therapy sessions. So again, they all sort of vary. And the reason they vary is because the way we think about it is what's the problem that someone is trying to solve in their real life, right? Like there's the clinical research piece of this, which is let's make sure we present the tools in a high integrity way. But also we want to present them in a way that makes sense to real human beings. And so the reason they vary by book is that, well, the thing that someone needs looks different given the issue that they're dealing with. And so that's how we think about their product development process is like, hey, what does Stella need? And okay, how can we deliver the tools in a way that will make sense to her rather than just throwing the tools at you and then hoping that you'll, you know, hoping that you'll learn them. 'Cause there's a big difference between giving you knowledge in a way that's well designed and then just throwing knowledge at you and hoping that you pick it up. - Yeah, and I like that it's really interactive as well because that also there's studies that have shown that you learn best when you're like actively applying that knowledge. So rather than just reading a textbook about these five different techniques that you can do, you're actually like doing those techniques and practices. And that's what's triggering that learning process. You had mentioned that there's the anxiety, depression, notebook, there's one on specifically therapy and then also sleep and trauma. How did you identify that those were the specific types of products or areas that you wanted to focus on? - That's a great question. I mean, you know, we like go back and forth all the time on like should we do this, Max, or that, Max, or this, Max. And it's, it really we started with anxiety and depression because those were the two clinical issues that have the most prevalence in the US and in the world. And so that's how we started is like we're like, okay, like those are the two that are most prevalent. From there, I think a lot of it has actually been by listening to our customers. So we listen to, we like talk to our customers all the time and try to understand like, well, what are the other things? What are the other things that they're dealing with that are related to their anxiety and depression that we can actually help with? That is a really big piece of it. And then the other really big piece of it is for certain issues, unfortunately, there aren't really, there aren't tools with a lot of clinical consensus. So sometimes we're like, oh, we want to do this topic, except there aren't mental health tools that we can definitely pull from for that topic. And so for those topics, I think there's a longer effort of okay, well, what else can we provide or how else can we approach it? And so it's really those dude factors is like, one, what are our customers saying and how can we help them more? And then two, it's, well, what are the available tools? And let's make sure that there's actually a tool available for the thing that a customer is talking to us about. I think it was also a great idea to start with anxiety and depression because I think those are probably some of the most common mental health struggles that most people face and deal with. Specifically anxiety, I think that is an emotion or struggle, whatever you want to call it. Like that is something that I would argue probably like everyone has experience, but it's on a spectrum. So, you know, maybe minor stresses or minor feelings of of anxiousness. And then if you look at the other end of the spectrum, it's like possibly full-blown panic attacks or having chronic anxiety or generalizing anxiety disorder. So anxiety is like a big hot topic. I think it's something especially young adults struggle with. I know over the past few years, I've definitely felt increasing emotions that are revolved around anxiety and just having heightened stress levels. And I think a lot of people often search for quick fixes to alleviate their stress and anxiety. From the research that you've done, building these books and products, what are some of the best tips that you've seen, the researchers and scientists that you've worked with, offer on helping to alleviate stress and anxiety in your life or at least manage it in a more productive way. - I guess I'll go back to one thing you said, which I think is interesting around. Like, you know, yeah, there's so many people that struggle with anxiety and depression. And then also those, yeah, to your point, it's a spectra, right? Like, like, oh, the level of anxiety you feel on a given day may vary. And it's hard to predict that too. There's this book called "New Day Demon," which is "On Depression" by an author named Andrew Solomon. And there's this one passage I'm forgetting the exact wording, but it basically sort of describes anxiety and depression in the way that we categorize mental health conditions. And he talks about like, it's kind of like, saying you have anxiety is kind of like saying you have the cough. The reason is that there's so many different underlying reasons for a cough. Like, you may have the cough because you've got the flu and that requires antiviral medication. Or you may have a cough because you have an infection and you need like antibiotics. or you may have the cough because you have. some life threatening condition like cancer and that's actually causing the cough. And so the way we talk about it, which is why I think like even we struggle with like, well, what do we do next? Because the categorizations of different mental health conditions are not so straightforward where if you have anxiety, like we know exactly what that means, I think we've created these conditional, these conditioned driven labels in order to make sense of the world, but they don't describe root causes. They just describe symptoms and sometimes they describe symptoms of symptoms rather than being like, oh yeah, like anxiety is different from depression in this way, which is why a lot of people are like, I have anxiety and depression. Well, it's like, yeah, it's because like it's like saying you have a cough on a headache and it makes sense for you to have a cough on a headache at the same time, but we don't know what sort of like underlying that. So I say that because I think it informs how I think about the advice. And this is, I'm not a therapist, so this is really like my personal take, which is I think about my care in three ways. I think there's the short term piece of it, which is when I'm feeling something, I should address the cough or the cold or the or the headache. Like I should make sure to use the things that I know make me feel better rather than just suffering through that thing. So that's that's one layer is like figure out which tools and which things, whether that's a well-being practice or met the health tool or whatever it is, like makes me feel better. Then there's a second piece of it which is trying to get underlying causes. And that's how I use therapy. I use therapy as a way for me to continue to investigate and learn about myself with a trained professional so that I can identify some of the root causes in my life. That can be changed so that I feel better for the long term, right? And that's where you get into interesting things around, well, like people talk about the psychodynamic forms of therapy that where you talk about your childhood and your relationship with your parents. I think that's valuable as its own place. And then there's the more modern evidence-based form of psychotherapy where I'm learning how to better manage my thoughts because a lot of my thought patterns are a core driver of why I feel a certain way or a lot of my core beliefs are involved. So I think of that as like, okay, that's my second sort of major thing I invest in. And then the last, which I think sort of sits across both of those is, I think for a lot of people, myself included, taking care of the most fundamental parts of my health has such a big impact. So like making sure I'm sleeping enough, making sure I'm seeing the people that I like seeing, making sure I'm being active and going outside and eating well, like, you know, the things that everyone talks about, but are very hard to do when you're stressed out in particular, right? When you're stressed out, those are the first things that like go, that's how I approach my care. And I found that to be relatively helpful. And I find that a lot of things that I learn in building therapy, notebook support staff, which is like, there's the short term things I do to take care of myself. There's the long term things I do to find and adjust through causes that may be driving the short term stuff. And then there's like the overall approach to my day-to-day so that I can make sure that I keep up with the healthy habits that keep me afloat. I love how you distinguish those like three different aspects of care for yourself because I think that perhaps a lot of people see like therapy, for example, as maybe the primary way to take care of your mental health, whatever that means to that person. And then that's kind of like outside of your day-to-day, but really, where long lasting change happens is through habit formation. So like one session, once a week, sure, can definitely be very helpful. But it's like, what are you doing outside of those sessions to integrate it into your day-to-day routine and make it almost automatic? And like you mentioned, when you're in feeling heightened levels of stress, oftentimes, like the most basic fundamental things you can do to take care of yourself go, like eating well, getting proper sleep, exercising, just getting in daily movement. And I think that's actually like at least for me, the minute I start to feel like I'm losing a grip or losing a sense of control on my eating behaviors, the amount of sleep I'm getting, the amount of exercise I'm having, the minute that starts to go, I'm like, oh my goodness, I'm in this spiral. And it's that much harder for me to get back on like a healthier path. And I think that's actually something that a lot of people have trouble with is like the minute they feel like they're losing a sense of control, or like they've lost their grip on things. And then they're out of control. It's that much harder to feel like empowered and excited to do the things that you should be doing for yourself to take care of yourself. So what would your response be to instances like those I've just described where people are starting to feel like they're losing a sense of control and are trying to kind of regain that sense of control to take care of themselves. And like a non-traditional setting when we think about you know our mental health and our wellness. Totally. I think there's also an important distinction for people to draw, especially as more and more people go to therapy between sort of serious mental illness and lower acuity care. And I say that because I think therapy for serious mental illness is a must have. It's like I need to get care. I need to see a psychiatrist or a therapist or a psychologist in order for me to address this very serious mental illness that I'm dealing with. And then there's the sort of like the spectrum as you describe where I'm not necessarily in serious mental illness category and I'm at lower levels of anxiety, stress, depression, etc. And I think when you're in those moments then, so let's say we're talking about that population which again is very different than serious mental illness population. And you're like you know the things that do keep you afloat usually are no longer there and you're like sort of spiraling. I think what's really hard to do but also really impactful is to raise your hand and ask for help. Like I feel like at that point where you're like shit like everything is hitting me and then asking for help also feels like a lot of energy. Like I'm not gonna like go ask for help from people and like and like have them understand my situation and not have them not get upset that I'm not coming to this party and like I have to do with I have to do this thing. But I think that's the point which you activate your support system. And you say hey guys like I'm actually like I'm actually weighing over my head over the past few weeks and I need a little bit of time and space and help to like get back to a healthier place. And I think you actually have to activate that even sooner than you think. As soon as you're like oh I'm not working out anymore I'm not sleeping well I feel really stressed I can feel this building. I think that's the point where you have to be like hey can I get some help? Whether that's from your therapist or from your friends or from your co-workers whatever it is like that's the point which let me activate my community. I say that obviously in that like not everyone has the same access to community but whatever community have access to I think people show up more than you expect them to. And community serves as this incredibly valuable and relationships in community. Services incredibly valuable buffer for your mental health especially when things are unexpectedly harder for you. Yeah I'm so happy that you also talk about the distinction between perhaps like the lower end of the spectrum. This lower cutie care versus those who struggle with serious mental health mental illness issues. Kind of tying it back to earlier in this conversation when I started out by sharing that I've actually never been to therapy and that it's kind of ironic that I have this mental health podcast maybe is that I think for a long time the way that our culture viewed therapy and mental health was only looking at the higher end of the spectrum. Like if you go to therapy there must be something seriously wrong with you or you must be really really struggling. And even like in my own journey and growing interests in mental health and wellness I've often kind of questioned maybe why I've had this interest because I've always thought to myself well I don't know like I've never been to therapy I've been very fortunate to never needed to see a psychiatrist like I've always had a very positive happy demeanor so I've been very lucky in that way to have certain things come easier to me as far as you know when we think about mental health and mental health struggles. But now it's been really amazing to open up this conversation and something that I really stand by is that you know regardless of where you are on the spectrum it doesn't mean that life is easy it's so crucial to have these tools in your toolkit to enable you to take the best care of yourself as possible and like the unfortunate reality of life is that this may be easier for some people than others but even if it's easier for you it shouldn't disregard the fact that there are still very serious struggles in life and the next day you never know what could happen and you could be hit with a very very challenging situation that could really change things so I'm happy that you talk about this distinction and from what I've seen is around the conversation with mental health opening up is also talking about both ends of the spectrum so specifically with therapy notebooks how do you see these products kind of play in both areas or two different use cases perhaps with some people that are having like mild anxiety or depression or experiences with that versus people who are like chronically suffering and have perhaps more of like the serious mental health issues or struggles. I love the way you bring that. And I would say that, so with our mental health tools, if you're on the more serious end of the mental health, if you're mentally ill basically, if you're like, hey, I'm definitely dealing with a mental illness that requires me to get care, I think about our products is very much a compliment to your care. Like I would not want you to buy our products as a standalone intervention or source of support. I want you to buy them in conjunction with seeing providers. And then he moved to someone who was like, okay, like I feel generally okay, but I'm definitely, and I'm on the lower acuity end of the spectrum, but like I definitely have very difficult days and I definitely feel anxious as an example or I'm struggling to process a traumatic event. Like I think there's a lot of people that fall into that category and myself included. And I think for them, we very much hope that if they are seeing a therapist that they use the books in tandem with seeing a therapist, but for that, we design them to be able to be used independently, to be able to use as a way to learn mental health tools that will be helpful for their situations. To take that a step further and to relate to what you just said, we hope that our, I think we want to keep building our products in a way where we don't only frame these as mental health tools for problems in your life. And what I mean by that is, so you think about the activity of, or the exercise of reframing, for instance, right? So there's using reframing reactively in order to manage my anxious thought patterns. And then there's using reframing proactively in order to enhance my life, right? Like how can I use reframing so that when someone does something not so great to me, like I can actually be more compassionate to them. Or how can I use reframing to take a life situation that's been handed to me? And I may not feel anxious or stressed, but I can make the most of that situation because of these skills. Or think about even a tool like, there's a tool called behavioral activation, which is basically this idea that like, sometimes your behaviors need to come before your thoughts and feelings. Meaning sometimes we need to do something before we feel like we want to do something. I'm oversimplifying, but that's the general premise. And even that framework for my life, like has been so helpful even when I'm not, even when I'm feeling totally fine, it makes me think like, how can I be more action first in this case so that I can help myself when how I'm feeling and thinking is perhaps a little unclear? Related to what you're saying, I think there's a, I think there's a, we want to build tools that will reactively help as supportive tools. And then also over time, build tools that will proactively help you live a more fulfilling life. - That's a great way to put it. And by the time that this episode will air, you will have launched a new redesign for your products. So can you talk a little bit about what the new collection is gonna look like and maybe what some of those changes are that customers can expect? - Yeah, the rebrand and the reason we're doing it is really to more clearly articulate and like double down on this commitment to creating mental health tools for your everyday. And so there's two pieces of it. It's really like showing, like visually showing that we're trying to bridge this gap between research and real life. And so our products actually have an even deeper nod to research, like we try, we've actually like, sort of tried to bring that clinical ethos to life more visually. And an even deeper commitment to real life. And what I mean by that is like we've updated, we like sort of incorporate feedback, we've gotten from customers, we've changed the way we talk about the brand, we're more applicable to people's real lives. And the future products we're working on are also much more driven by everyday needs than they are by just diagnoses. And so that's how we think about the rebrand is like how do we create things that maintain the integrity of clinical mental health tools, while also empathizing with the very human everyday needs that people have. And that's what we're doubling down on as we launch this rebrand or having launched this rebrand. It's sort of like showing that we want to be that bridge between those two things. Yeah, and I think also as things evolve in the mental health space and as current events also evolve over time, it's also really important just within the whole health and wellness field to adapt to what's also changing around you. Are there any other exciting updates or features that people can look forward to with their B-note books like in the coming months maybe? Yeah, we're going to launch a few new products that I think are going to be really exciting. One of them is actually focused on relates to our conversation. One of them is actually focus on habit development, not as clinical of a tool but really relevant to sort of being day-to-day healthy or maintaining your day-to-day health. And then there's another one that's focused on moments of overwhelm. So when someone is feeling really, really overwhelm. And it's actually kind of like an adult's illustrated book. So it's a book of illustrations and each illustration has a tool associated with it. And so the idea is like when you're having that moment of panic or overwhelm that you can open up the book and flip to any tool and use it as a way to really help you de-escalate that moment. And over time, you'll know which things work for you. Like over time, we call it like-- or in the book, we call it like developing your stack. Like you'll develop a stack of things that your go-to when you're like, hot man, I might have in a really rough time or I'm feeling like a panic attack or anxiety attack come on. And you know that you can go to that as a way to feel better. So I'm really sad about those two products because I think they're quite related to what we're talking about, which is becoming more and more grounded in the things that people struggle with day to day. Yeah, that-- and then I think the other piece-- in 2023, not immediately in the first couple of months. But we're going to start to work on digital versions of what we do. So going back to some of the experiments I worked on a long time ago, like figuring out how can we take what we've built with therapy notebooks and create digital versions for the people that prefer to access things digitally. And/or want to use that in conjunction with this physical experience. So many exciting things that are upcoming. And I look forward to following along the journey. I have a few final questions for you. Shifting gears a little bit. These are some of my signature questions that I ask almost every single guest that comes onto the podcast. And it's really tied into the mission behind the show and really the lifeline of everyday endorphins, which is to open up a dialogue about the importance of just focusing on the things in life that bring us joy and happiness. So one question that I have is, as someone who works directly in the mental health field and clearly has a passion for health and wellness, how has your philosophy of leading a healthy life shifted throughout the course of your lifetime? It's shifted so much, it's crazy. I mean, it's a great question. I think the biggest thing that has shifted is, I think about what I do, everything that I do day-to-day, as part of my health. Meaning, here's what I do for my health, and then here's everything else. Like, what I do for work is also part of my health. What I, how I think is part of my health, like my physical activity, everything is part of my overall health. And the reason I think that's been important for me is because I think I used to create silos in my life. I'm like, okay, the morning is when I work out and I feel healthy and I feel good, and then I work, and then I do whatever, and then I, and then on the weekends, I like party and have a good time, and then I recover. And now I'm like, oh no, but all of those collectively contribute to my health. And so I think about work even as, like, how I approach work as a function of health. So do I like my job? Like, do I like my colleagues? Like, do I have space and time to be able to go for a walk and to be able to eat and move the way that I want to? So I think that's been a really big change for me is sort of like thinking about my health as a function of the different integrated parts of my life, rather than as, rather than in a silo. - I mean, could not have said that better myself. That's a really, really fantastic answer. And it's something that I've also started to think a lot about as far as my approach to healthy living, and just leading a happy life. You know, another thing that I found to be really helpful and really is the primary messaging behind the podcast is finding things in life that just bring you a bit of joy. And focusing on that. Because if you can follow that path, you'll be nourishing your body and your mind on so many different levels. And to that point, my final question to you is, what is something that brings you a bit of endorphins every day? - It's probably my morning coffee routine. Something about making coffee in the morning that I think is just like, I look, I very much look forward to it. And I have like a little mini espresso machine that I use or I'll make like a pour over, but like it's such a mechanical thing that you're gets me out of my body or out of my head in a really nice way. And so I love, I sort of love that every morning. I'm like, I could peacefully make my coffee. I can like hear the gears grinding and then you like, and then you like sit down with your cup. That's it for me. Yeah, there's something really soothing about ritual and like knowing what to expect as well. And of course coffee tastes delicious. So it's a good, imporfen boosting activity and drink. I also would say that it's something that brings me a lot of joy. I've recently started reintroducing coffee into my routine and my roommate has a pour over and so she'll make me a cup most mornings and it's very nice and it's nice to be taken care of. So I love that. Where can my listeners follow along? There be notebooks. Where can they get one themselves and where can they connect with you? Yeah, if you go to therapy notebooks, dot com, the notebooks with an S you can see our website, you can shop our products, like all of our products available there. You can also follow us on Instagram and TikTok at therapy notebooks. That's the best, that's the best place to reach the brand. And then if you want to reach me, I'm literally just partial D a R S H I L at therapy notebooks dot com. And if folks want to talk about mental health or just reach out and learn more about therapy notebooks, I'd be happy to chat. I'm so happy that I have my own copy of the therapy journal right next to me. And I'm very much excited to see the new redesign in the new year. And I'm just so inspired by what you've built. So thank you for putting this out into the world. It was really just amazing to have you as a guest on the show. Thanks, Ella. I had a great time. I appreciate it. Thanks for listening to this episode of Everyday Endorphins. If you liked what you heard, make sure to like, rate, and review this podcast on whichever platform you prefer. You can also follow along the Everyday Endorphins Instagram account to stay up to date with episodes, future events, and all things related to mental health, well-being, and happiness. Don't forget to keep spreading endorphins and find things in life that bring you joy every day. Until next time.