Ep. 911: Makah Whaling Practices, Treaty Rights, and Regulatory Challenges

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We're joined by, depends how you look at it, either three or four guests. We have Chairman T.J. Green. T.J. Green, who is the Chairman of the Makah Tribal Council, and his areas of expertise include policy, legal hurdles, tribal politics, and historical organizational context. Okay. You've been with the Tribal Council for nine years? Yes. All right. We got Daniel Green, who's the Vice President of the Whaling Commission and has been involved in whale hunts, butchering whales, all that kind of stuff. All of the above. We have Lupe Castaneda. Am I saying that right? Yeah. Who's a council member and a first foods expert. He's going to help us understand a little bit about nutrition, health impacts, and environmental toxins that can be found in whale meat. And we have Chris Martinez. He's just hanging out. But just quick, tell people what you do. I'm the Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council. I'm also a citizen. I was the Secretary of the Makah Whaling Commission. Got it. So I'm here just hanging out. All right. So let's start with this, man. And TJ, you can answer this question. Explain, who are the Makah? Okay. And what does that word mean? All right. And what do you guys regard as your traditional homeland? And what do you regard? As your homeland now? Well, the Makah tribe is very Northwestern tip, uh, Washington state. We've been there since the first light is how we say it. Okay. Yeah. And, and we're, um, you know, we got about 3,100 members and 1600 live on a reservation. It's a federal Indian reservation now. And you know, we're, we're ocean people, you know, we're connected to that ocean. That's been the lifeblood and. Our spiritual existence and our cultural practices all revolve around activities on that ocean. Okay. And so, you know, that's, that's who we are. Um, you know, Makah is not our word. Oh, okay. It's not, it's not our word. It's a Salish word. You are our neighbor. Neighboring tribe was a Salish nation, um, called us Makah and that means generous host. Uh, oh, because a lot of times those names are like, a lot of times there's names to get picked up that are not. Great. Yeah. That translate to sort of like a, like, you know, like the enemy, the enemy or whatever, you know? Sure. Sure. Yeah. Generous host, generous host. Uh, even though we had wars with that nation, but that's what they called us. That's what Makah means. What was your traditional, like, like not traditional, but what was, what, what, what, what did the Makah call themselves at the time that the Salish started calling them the Makah? Quidditch chat. Oh, what's that mean? That's, that's a harder word to say. People who live amongst the rocks and seagulls. Oh, really? Yeah. That was the name? That's, that's. Do you guys still use that name now? We do. Yes. Okay. Yeah. I see. Yeah. So, so, but in your relationships with the government, you're like in the media, you're the Makah tribe, the Makah. Correct. That's, uh, during the treaty negotiations, 1855 treaty in Neah Bay, that's what Governor Stevens, Governor Isaac Stevens, you know, he, there was, he couldn't say Quidditch chat, I'm sure. Oh, really? He's like me. He was like me, man. He couldn't say it. Huh. That's interesting, man. Um, here's one for, for, for the most part, you guys can just decide amongst yourselves who's best to answer a question. Or if you want to both take a stab at, you can both take a stab at, but I wanted to ask, cause, cause Daniel's had experience with, you know, sort of on the ground experience. Maybe all you guys have had on the ground experience with whaling, but with like historically, and is it annoying if I say historically? No. Okay. Um, cause that's the thing, like a white dude's heads, a lot of times there's, you know, you can, you know, this and white and white dude's heads, there's like, there was native Americans and they kind of like stopped. Do you know what I mean? People view it like they, they like stopped and then became that something different happened. So if I say to you historically and you go like, well, what do you mean? I mean, I don't know, like a while ago or, you know, but in this question, I mean, historically, how serious, how serious were the Makah about? You know, whaling, you know what I mean? Like, how did it, how did it fit into the seasonal? Well, if I can just start out, it was, it was, um, it was a focal point of our society. Okay. Whaling. It was our main nutritional. It's how we fed our people. Got it. You know, we have no big rivers out there that are lush with salmon or anything like that. So, so we were out on that ocean and whales were swimming there and we, yeah, so we. Understood. We harvested them. For a nutritional source and then it became a source of wealth for us in the society that we built for over thousands of years. Explain that when you say wealth as a, as a trade item. Absolutely. Yeah. And what, what components of a whale would be used? What components of a whale would be, I mean, I can imagine the parts that would be used internally, but what would be a item that you could, that you could barter with or that you could monetize off a whale? Whale oil is one that's, you get a lot of whale oil from the whale. Got it. An interior, like I imagine, like interior people would want it. Right. Cause they didn't have some, they didn't have an equivalent. Correct. Yeah, I got it. I got it. And then how, how were, like, how were whales hunted? I mean, physically, like, how were they hunted? If you went back, just pick, like pick a top, let's say, let's say we go back to, I don't know, 200 years ago, 300 years ago, how was the whale caught? Out of a, we'd go out in a Cedar. We'd go out in a Cedar and we'd go out in a Cedar and we'd go out in a Cedar. Yeah. and that whale rolled around, probably smacked the head heck out of people oh that's a good point man yeah so it yeah imagine that right yeah so it comes apart and the uh harpoon tip was made of muscle shell really yeah muscle shell and and elk what part of the bone i need a little help on that yeah like the valve the toggle get a little closer that might but oh is the toggle the yeah so that muscle shell would be like like barbs or prongs embedded into that thing uh yeah it was shaped shaped just like a like a regular harpoon i guess okay i had a like broad tip but but it's staying there good yeah it would stay in there good um yeah and it was tempered and aged and and and hardened so you know there's a lot that went into it so what do you do well two things what what was there one specific type of whale or did you get opportunities on multiple kinds of whales in your i know now the focus is on gray whales but what do you do on gray whales i know now the focus is on gray whales but what do you do on gray whales i know now the focus is on gray whales but what do you do on gray whales yeah we're gonna talk a lot about gray whales but but like your people might have had that that was the one they wanted or was there other kinds of whales that might be targeted at different times yeah there's definitely a lot of different whales we hunted each big old whale right whales we hunted oh really gray whales humpbacks um anything that swam pretty much but gray whales were the tastiest is that right yeah that was a preferred whale was a preferred whale i'm just i think due to the abundance also okay and the migration patterns were near shore i see humpback humpbacks are a little further offshore but we did target those also so do you know in the like in your traditions or were a lot of dudes killed hunting whales i mean it had to have been a hazardous business yeah so that's what that's what it is and that that leads you know into the preparation and stuff so you know essentially yeah you are preparing for death when you're training with the you know the eight guys in the canoe um is that right and it's a and it's a understand i'm uh it's the biggest creature on earth oh yeah yeah um then they have they have uh they want to live also so they have a wild side and uh yeah it's it's it's pretty scary it could be dangerous yeah it could be very dangerous you know you mentioned like biggest it's it's the thing i always bring up to my kids is that like all you know kids are always tripped out about dinosaurs and stuff but the biggest animal to ever live on earth is now yeah you know like a blue whale as big as it seems like you know these like dinosaur statues and stuff are it's like the biggest critter is there now you're like you go see the damn thing like big whales you know yeah how much what does what like what does a gray whale what what is that what does that thing weigh 20 so about 2700 pounds on average that's a little bit we kind of talked about that target that general area it's about 30 000 pounds about 27 yeah 20 30 000 pounds yeah it's about a ton of foot yeah of the length one ton per foot the the main focus of our conversation is going to be like the resumption of whaling okay and you guys fights with maybe don't use the word fight you guys negotiations with the american government and others about what you're what you're allowed to do by the tree and what you're allowed to do by the tree and what you're allowed to do by the treaty you signed with the american government right like and whether or not you can do it and what it takes to do it but for background walk me through like how did how did whaling wind down and when did it wind down like when did it when did it go from being a annual occurrence to to being a thing that faded out what was the process of it of it going away well in the early 1900s okay you had commercial whaling was really up and up around the world i see right so um so our whaling our whalers at that time were noticing it was harder and harder to to do our traditional hunts so in the 1920s um we made the decision on our own to to not whale anymore because they just weren't in our area the way they used to be because of the impact of the commercial whalers right yes like the moby dick type dudes right like rendering you know killing them um like industrially industrially you know the the big old harpoons on the big ships you know rendering all that oil and selling all that oil in massachusetts and stuff yeah yes so so that was whittling away the whale population yeah i was whittling that away and and so we stopped in the late 1920s we had our last last harvest before we did the one in 99 and then you know it took the world a while to catch up you know 20 years later you get the whaling convention act and and those those international agreements to to start you know trying to be more responsible with you know with the stocks that are around the world there and when you say it took the world a while to catch up you mean it took the world a while to respond to the industrial slaughter yes to regulate it to regulate like they let it get it got bad yeah it got bad yeah i mean you populations were at near extinction do you do you guys have much idea when the when the disease epidemics came from europeans did it did those diseases hit did they like hit the macaw like suddenly and hard were there were where there were just huge losses of people or did it was it with you guys was it a slower thing that played out over centuries no it was it hit us hard we had two major smallpox um epidemics in our communities um you know one in the uh i believe is the 1820s and another in the in the late 1840s okay took out 90 of our population huh and and then what was left from from that 90 percent negotiated the 855 treaty in the abbey yeah that's the thing man that's the thing i talked to people a lot about that i just don't think like a lot of americans can't picture it you know i can't picture that kind of loss but the only way to really get there is just to try to imagine in like i don't know pick whatever town you live in right like picture that you live in toledo ohio right and then imagine that all of a sudden over the course of a couple years of that nine out of ten of the people in toledo ohio die or wherever right nine out of ten of them die and you look at your broader family structure your siblings cousins aunts uncles grandparents nine like if you count them all up and you go i have 20 family members okay uh 18 are now dead now come tell me about your family and come tell me about how your family functions right like people cannot picture it man yeah people can't picture it no i i appreciate that because you know when i thought about that you know growing up and reaching the age i'm at now and and what we have as a tribe and how rich we are in our language and our culture and our traditions you know that 10 percent that that survived that you know gave that to us they carried that on yeah i think how rich was our society before that oh that the ten percent the ten percent the ten percent remains of richness because think about what gets lost yeah huge things get lost man all the history and that's the thing is especially with without now everything gets so captured captured written word right captured you know captured and banked in the internet but like all of a sudden like eighty percent of the narratives are gone eighty percent of the oh yeah but we we came from here and your grandfather was this and right and that's all wiped yeah you got and you got of those ten you got two people left like here's what i think happened but i'm not really sure people lose sight i mean it's just too hard to comprehend people flipped out during the covid pandemic oh yeah do you know i mean like people like like people and wherever like really hard hit places like people flipping out in manhattan because i don't know what it was percentage but like it was overwhelming the morgues it's like dude that is nothing nothing compared nothing compared to what was happened to native communities with smallpox right you know it to get the equivalent you'd had to go into manhattan and remove i don't know 10 million people in manhattan and you'd be like that would be that would give you an idea what will that give you an idea what went on sure it's staggering so oh sorry even even with those diseases we we as macau we did we did a really good job at avoiding them for quite a while because we would catch wind of it depending on where it was and we would keep people out of certain areas and we'd steer clear of certain areas and was that right yeah and like towards you know 18 the 1850s is when ted stevens actually caught wind of you know the macaws are hit hard right now smallpox hit him and that's kind of when he's like let's let's go get this treaty that's kind of when he came out and you can even see in the notes that even a year ago we weren't the big chiefs we wouldn't have been the ones signing this we're here now and there was a lot of sadness in the notes because they've lost so many of their family and loved ones oh is that right that's yeah that's in steve because that dude inked a lot of treaties in the pacific northwest stevens did yeah he kind of made like a big run man because he knew he couldn't take us when we were full force you know before disease hit us but he's like oh he caught wind and he's like you know it's probably a good time but they're gonna negotiate huh because you guys are in a weakened position yeah militarily yeah and then even even with the during the covid like we avoided you know we locked down the reservation he was the chairman needed a really good job he kept we avoided a case for sure he did how long was it until there was finally one and in the reservation it was about three four months that you you guys held out for that long without any infections or yeah yeah and we didn't no loss of life there's you know as you know well we have maybe seven reservations in montana five or seven um and during the pandemic you know there were a lot of people who were in the reservation and they were like oh we're gonna take you there's a lot of people who were in the reservation and they were like oh we're gonna take you was you'd go down to the i can't remember if it was northern cheyenne or the crow reservation there's basically signs like don't stop on the highway passing through and i was like you know to my kids i was like man you gotta understand the history here of like pandemics that means something totally different that means something totally different native communities man because they got a fresh memory that stuff you know right um after so well let me ask about that the quitting whaling was it would you describe it more like more like it just wasn't worth it and it faded or was it a formal decision to quit it was a formal decision you know it like i mentioned in the introduction it it defined our our societal structure yeah and and we still have that reverence for it today it's it's that important that's why you know we we went 70 years between a harvest and kept that knowledge and you know that how to and and how we pass that on made that available to people so we could carry that on through all those generations that that span that 70 years yeah yeah like my my lifetime i would love to be a whaler you know i'm 54 now you know it's not likely in the cards for me but oh is that right yeah we'll talk about that so almost a century later so if you if you imagine that that the macaw quit whaling in let's say 1920 is that that's close 20 i don't know it was like 27 okay 1927 yeah and then fast forward up to the lead up to the to the next whale that was harvested by your your tribe and that whale was harvested what year 1999 walk me through the the years prior to 99 like what needed to happen because when you quit when you guys quit you quit because you decided to quit but you weren't at liberty to decide to start right i mean a lot happened right right you couldn't just be like hey we're going out yeah well because this whole world had been built up around marine mammals right this whole protection world so what what did that look like to go to say like hey man we're going to go we're going to resume our treaty rights we're there's enough whales now we're going to go whaling um like who do you pick up the phone you know i mean like who do you call right when you want to go get a whale well i mean for for tribal nations our first call you know our main contact in the federal government is department of interior the bureau of indian affairs yeah so it's their responsibility to to advocate for for those rights for us in the federal government yeah they're our trustee is what we say and and then from interior you know the whaling falls under department of commerce so you know through noah national marine fisheries and and those regulations you know were set up you know by different federal acts like the marine mammal protection act so in 72 that marine mammal protection act was passed and the gray whales were listed you know as an endangered species you know they were listed as endangered species as well you know the esa comes into play and so when in the 90s when the population was recovering so well you know you're getting some pretty high um you know at least record numbers in in in our lifetime you know near 30 000 whales okay in the 90s and and so it was proposed to be delisted you know that that was the trigger for us that's what did it yes i got you yeah the delisting of the eastern north pacific gray whale population was was our trigger to resume i see our our treaty right got it yeah but why this is probably it's ultra complicated question if if you have an agreement as if you have an agreement as a sovereign nation you have agreement with the government right and you have certain levels of autonomy would it have like were you being were you guys being nice by bringing it up like why couldn't it be that just one day you just went and did it no you're you're right on that that was a discussion of leadership at that time yeah actually daniel's uh father you're my older brother you know he was he was part of those discussions as as well as his grandfather oh really ben johnson the former chairman internal discussions internal discussions about that you know should what prevents us from just going it's in our treaty it's not listed you know but yeah we i would say we were being nice and we you know we met with the federal government and you know the federal government has these international agreements in place right they they work with the international whaling commission they're a member of it and so they wanted us to be a part of that process like the alaskan eskimos on on the north slope yeah so so we we agreed to do that you know we went and advocated for a quota worked with the alaskan eskimos and the chukokans in russia to to get an aboriginal subsistence whaling quota through the international whaling commission and what kind of quarter were you looking for one well they do it over over multiple years so i see yeah so so it was like um at that time it was it was up to five whales and in any given year over a you know like a five six year period okay yeah and you guys hit enormous resistance absolutely yes where in that first go around back in the 90s was was the was government resistance or social resistance there was strongest i think the social resistance was strongest but that translates into government resistance right you know a see yeah you know things get you know where's the political temperature of my constituents if you're politician in dc and and how much do i want to support this issue okay right so those things come into play but um it was pretty bad for um you know these guys when they were when they were younger in school you know there were um our community was getting threatened you know physically threatened bomb threats in our in our school by who though you know there were uh it's mainly your um animal welfare groups yeah so though but as i'm saying so the organizations were doing this was it like like greenpeace or what were the organizations that were coming after you or was it just like crackpot individuals there was a lot of crackpot individuals but there was one organization uh sea shepherd society oh yeah yeah yeah that that was the main one that that um you know they're they're very aggressive and and you know they'd send their ships into our harbor that we have and get on the loudspeaker and you know just start putting insults out there to our community really yeah yeah we had to get a federal restraining order on them and did you really and the coast guard enforced that and eventually kept them away but yeah it wasn't good for a while they were coming into your bay into your harbor yes in a ship i mean obviously yes uh-huh and and you guys you guys never you guys it didn't ever blow into like fist fights and brawls and stuff you know there was some very very close uh i guess encounters yeah there was it might have been some rock throwing and okay things of that nature the community got fed up with them right yeah so your morning workout your muscle recovery the moment you're doing something intentional for your performance with the addition of creatineine and more ag1 pro makes it easier than ever to maximize your results ag1 is great especially if you travel a lot and your diet on the road doesn't always match up to what you uh feel like you should be doing for yourself and even especially like in backcountry situations because it's just lightweight easy to carry and really fills out your nutrition plan and if you're already taking creatine separately or juggling multiple supplements to cover your bases ag1 pro brings it together in one simple routine you're 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Was it around the idea of resuming whaling or was it pretty much unanimous within the McCall? Was it like, this is our right, this is what we're going to go do, the population is strong enough to support limited harvest? Or was it a fight amongst you guys? No, it was heavily supported. Okay. I mean, we have a need statement, you know, 80, I think in the 90s, it was like 84, 85% of the community wants to go back and do this. So overwhelming. Overwhelming, yeah. In our need statements we've done, we have to do those for the international whaling quota that we get. And that's just gone up since then. But, you know, there were people that didn't want to go back to it. And we just worked through that. Did you, I mean, that turned into, I followed that whole thing. I forgot a lot of the details now, but I remember being very interested in it. And it turned into, I mean, it turned into a media spectacle. Like everybody had an opinion about it, right? It kind of like, maybe not for you guys, but for the, in the normal, in the normal, like if you're just a dude that followed the news, the main thing that was reported was like, was the social fight, right? It became a news story about this, this dispute. That seemed to over, probably maybe not from your community, but that seemed to over, the coverage of, of the, of the news. That seemed to over, probably maybe not from your community, but that seemed to over, probably maybe not from your community. That seemed to over, probably maybe not from your community, but that seemed to over, probably maybe not from your community, but that seemed to over, probably maybe not from your community, but that seemed to over, probably maybe not from your community, but that seemed to over, probably maybe not from your community. That seemed to over, probably maybe not from your community, but that seemed to over, probably maybe not from your community, but that seemed to over, probably maybe not from your community, but that seemed to over, probably maybe not from your community. with the, you know, ceiling and, and, know other other marine mammals yeah so they they got a harpoon into it and it's got a detachable head on it or somehow it's connected to a line the first piece yeah yeah or the valve whatever you call it yeah that gets into it and then there's a float system yep so it starts paying out and then there's a buoy tender that's sitting to the right of the harpooner and he's clipping on buoys while they're slowing down you have to be one uh the crew has to be in unison you know so to turn the canoe into the right direction and get heading forward so the line don't pay out you know too fast you have a line tender buoy tender how much line um it depends about you know 270 feet or so or more and you're clipping buoys on as it goes clipping buoys as it goes yeah is that thing at risk of sinking definitely yeah so the more buoys the better so so it's not just to slow it down but to keep it from sinking keep it from sinking yes got it should chat about the seal skin float system oh yeah the old floats were made out of seal skins yeah um they were skinned in such a way where you could turn them inside out and and inflate them uh-huh um yeah they're big you know big floats some of them were you know six feet or more so and when this was happening there's how many people are observing this the actual hunt yeah uh the 99 hunt or yeah the 99 hunt oh there's hundreds of people uh you know outside the zone the coast guard set a a zone for oh they said yeah a perimeter so your people could be in the perimeter but other people had to stay out of the perimeter our canoe and our our uh chase boat so yeah how far was it how far how far out to sea are you when this is happening how far from your how far from your reservation are you uh we're you know they migrate past our front door so so you just hunt close to home we hunt close to home yeah we could also hunt you know out further at sea if we're going after different if we went after different species so okay and you're and you're not do they draw like does the government draw a line and say these waters are okay um they did do a restricted zone right for but to harvest a whaling yeah yeah like let's say you wanted to take off like you you would never go take off and be like oh hey we're gonna go whale up um we're gonna go whale up in alaska and try that out right yeah that they had to specify in some way where you can go well that that's a really really great question and um i got a couple answers for that actually okay there's uh so for the 99 hunt yes there was a defined hunt area okay uh we agreed to stay out of the uh straight awanda fuca and just on the pacific ocean okay the tribe has a usual and a custom fishing area yeah that's adjudicated that went to the supreme court from that stevens treaty from that stevens treaty so so we have a defined area but that's only for fishing we do not have a defined area for whaling and the court was very specific about that because we in in that court case we we brought forward our whaling and sealing activities as part of that and the government said we're here to just talk about fishing your usual and accustomed fishing area we we acknowledge that you you've gone 80 to 100 miles offshore for whaling but we're not going to allow that evidence as part of that case why did they want to punt on that question all right well i think it's a limit uh to limit us really it's to limit oh because they're like let's talk about the local stuff let's not talk about the far out stuff yeah because they wanted they wanted to shrink that zone they wanted to put us in the box because before that case yeah people we fished from california all the way up to the bering sea under okay under our treaty you know yeah like people just take off correct and go on see sea journeys i'm imagining yeah and and now we're put in the box i got you but they never fixed the whaling box yeah there's no whaling box right now so when but in 99 when they made a whaling box they didn't it wasn't as big as the fishing box no huh and in our current permit yeah you know we we have an agreed-upon area as well which is essentially on the pacific ocean you know out outside of the strait of wanda fuca and and then you know there's a national marine sanctuary that's out there now so there's areas of other marine mammals you know the haul out areas for seals and sea lions and things like that that we you know we agree to um transit in a responsible manner while we're hunting you know so you've agreed to stay out of the sanctuaries not not out of the sanctuary okay not out of it no no the sanctuary is is within our waters i got you yeah so we we fish and exercise our treaty in the sanctuary got it and they're they're they've been a good partner and they support that oh okay yeah um the 99 hunt happens it's now 2026. what why was there not a 2000 hunt a 2001 hunt a 2002 hunt like what happened there was okay and you know daniel can oh there wasn't maybe talk about those those hunts um but in um in 2002 you know i believe there was a injunction put on our whaling yeah um the federal government was sued over their uh you know how they put together the nipa for our whale hunt and that they didn't didn't do a thorough job and that wasn't so that was in 2002 that they came in and said they they blocked it or something correct yeah but did you got did you guys have the desire to continue like would you have continued if that injunction hadn't happened was the desire there that you'd do an annual whale hunt absolutely yeah why did you pay attention to i'm not criticizing but like when the injunction came what was the decision to abide by it rule of law you know okay it's it's uh you know i think we you know our our leadership and our macaw people you know believe in that you know we have our own laws that we pass as well yeah around those and things yeah things that we agreed to and so um it's i don't know that whole that's i can get into that more if you want but i mean there's really a lot to say around around that you mean around internal debates about how do we negotiate and engage with the government yeah i mean we don't need to spend tons of time on it but you've exercised where you've generally been i mean i know this but you've generally been trying to work within the constraints of the regulatory bodies in the federal government right and haven't stepped outside of that like haven't gone the vigilante would be the right word but haven't gone your own way on it well you know we we did have a we had a group of macaws that got frustrated with the process okay at one point yeah um but you know so in 2002 you know i think there was an injunction um and court case uh anderson versus evans court case that took place and um you know that basically that case basically decided that the marine mammal protection act applies to the macaw tribe okay which we to this day we disagree with that you know we think we don't think that's the correct ruling but we're stuck with it i got you um and so under the marine mammal protection act it requires you to get a waiver to to take a marine mammal yeah in our case whaling and and then after a waiver the government has to issue a permit so in 2004 we submitted doc documents to to start that application process for a waiver under the marine mammal protection act and we've been in that process ever since got it yeah got it in the meantime have gray whales stayed off the were gray whales delisted and stayed off the list yes yes so no one's put them back on the endangered species list no can you guys explain to me i wasn't even aware of this till nate told me you guys get gray whales from ship strikes like you'll be you'll take you is this true that you'll take possession of gray whales that are that are killed and from from getting hit by boats or tangled in nets or something like that yes yes we we have um how does that play out we have a process with national marine fisheries to um you know to obtain those for our use you know we basically submit a request for this incidental take you know because of whatever that mortality event was we're whether it's a ship strike or some entanglement or, and, um, and then we have our own marine mammal biologists that, that works with the tribe as well. So when that happens, you know, we decide if we want to utilize that whale and, you know, and then we tow it to our shores and, you know, we check the health of it, see how fresh it is. If, you know, is it, is it, is it something that's, that's fresh enough? Is the whale healthy, you know, is it something that we can you know harvest the blubber and the meat for for consumption yeah or um you know or do we you know just butcher it up and utilize some of the other parts whether it's the bones the vertebrae you know the baleen you know that okay and is it your job to go fetch it yes not mine specifically but but yeah but the macaw people right so so how does it how does because this has to happen fast right so how does it come to you like you know let's say a cruise ship hits a whale right bam they hit a whale it's crippled it's dying like the phone rings like like how does this play out that just like that it does someone calls someone calls you know people know uh that macaws are whalers in that area and um you know there's a whole reporting system for those sort of things so when those reports happen you know sometimes that call comes from a federal government official say hey we got this report yeah there's this whale located off a tattoo island or wherever and and you know so we go check it out got it you send your own boats out and your own agency guys or whatever out and check it out yeah you know what i saw a long time ago have you ever heard of you know cook inlet and turning an arm yes in alaska so we're way up turning an arm going salmon fishing and that thing gets flooded on these huge tide swings and beluga's coming there when the salmon are running beluga's come up into this long i don't know it's like a like a like an arm like a fjord kind of thing and it's at low tide it's a mud flat for the most part now high tide it's enough water for a beluga whale we're way up in that arm 20 miles up in that arm because it was 20 mile river and there's these belugas in there and we're talking about me my brother talking about how do they get out of there we're like they must have a channel or something that we can't see and we just go about our business fishing well the next day in the newspaper is those whales that we are commenting on like wondering how they're going to get out of that little pool they're in are dead and it was and i don't know what tribe did it but they i mean they rushed out there and got them all butchered and hauled out of there like quick you know and i always remember being kind of impressed by that like what a haul that was you know but just utilized them all when you think they normally lay there and rot yeah we've we try to utilize everything on that whale and when those unfortunate things happen yeah we don't want those things to go to waste if we get them in time how is it divided up like something like that happens i mean it's a huge haul food let's say you get one it's like uber like mega fresh or you kill one and it's real fresh did you in your view does every macaw have a right to some of it anyone that wants it has a right to it or does it play out differently yeah i think eventually yeah we'd like to be that i mean there's um harpooner usually has you know can can get what he wants okay but yeah it gets divided amongst uh the uh crew and then that goes to their families so i see yeah what's the most coveted part um there's parts that we do ceremonies with um oh it's the most coveted yeah i got it but what about just for regular everyday consumption what part is the best my favorites of skin and blubber i i absolutely love that yeah tastes like the ocean yeah we i've had some of that yeah i've had some of that from bowheads and it's amazing it's yeah it's that's i you can't beat that in my book no these guys might have that's one thing you can imagine like picture like sushi restaurants like high-end sushi restaurants and stuff where people want to try interesting things that item when they you know like cut it with it's like almost like that french fry shape with a little bit of skin on it yeah that item would be the most popular thing in the world if people got turned on to that it was amazing we ate some right here oh nice yeah okay yeah no that's good stuff yeah what about the meat the actual meat yeah i like the meat too i mean what's it like porpoise tastes like pork yeah no seal i mean it's it's got its own taste uh but i mean like put it like with stuff that i'd be familiar with or can't you even draw i can't draw a comparison i got it it's just it's just different it's like ocean elk yeah it's super it's super lean the meat itself is super lean it's super there's a lot of blood in it okay but dark yeah it's real dark you you can throw it on a smoker you can fry it up like a steak you can do you could braise it i mean there's what what parts like i'm just imagine it's not like filet in the fish like like you're you're what would be like how do you describe the parts of it you know like let's say you're doing the elk you'd be okay we got the back straps right do you know i mean you got your grind pile you got your ribs you know i mean like when you're doing a whale is it that there's parts that are good for this parts that are good for that i mean i think you separate naturally separate into blubber you have your blubber and skin and then you have your meat and so you kind of think of it as like um if you've seen some of the pictures from 99 or some of the other things where they're butchering in sections and you get it you know you take the section and and you kind of have this big blob of meat that has a ton of blubbers a ton of meat and you know it's enough for you know plenty of your family if you were to cook it up for six eight ten people and yeah and are our guys freezing it like freezing it up yeah especially with the the last kind of ship strike whales that were healthy they were divided up and and passed around the community and people froze the blubber people froze some of the meat and then obviously everybody took advantage of tasting it eating it right away rendering the oil smoking some of the meat and it's cool because you see it you know shared around the community yeah and it's just a it's it's really cool tell me a way tell me a couple ways one might fix the meat like cook the meat jerky oh it's like whale jerk is yeah jerky that was the best jerky i've ever had um really yeah uh a guy that used to be on the whaling commission god rest his soul gary ray he he made whale jerky and it it was really good it was really good it was really good and it it was really it was the best drink i ever had huh just sliced it thin dried it air dried it yeah or smoked it i mean smoke yeah he had a you know traditional smokehouse and he smoked it up in there on those strips in there here he gave me some i tried it and i was like oh like i didn't want to put it down yeah but he also makes the best salmon candied salmon yeah also he knows what's up with making the dry products he was he was like yeah he was really good at all that stuff is there any such thing like do you guys uh do you guys grind do you guys make grind meat from deer and elk and stuff would anybody ever grind up whale meat i don't think anybody's thought of it to make like a whale burger it would be like that kind of meat it's interesting too because of the you know how um you know you have your your elk towel you have your own elk fat it binds really well yeah it's interesting too because of the you know how um you know you have your your elk towel you have your elk fan binds really well yeah um keep your grinder cold you grind your well yeah um keep your grinder cold you grind your meat add your fat it stays really well i meat add your fat it stays really well i imagine whale blubber oh would melt imagine whale blubber oh would melt such a lower temperature yeah and so i such a lower temperature yeah and so i i mean i imagine your patty would kind of i mean i imagine your patty would kind of fall apart no i could imagine that fall apart no i could imagine that because if everybody was to get like because if everybody was to get like distributed distributed from a whale you'd get about seven pounds from a whale you'd get about seven pounds of meat and then about one point just of meat and then about one point just about two pounds of blubber about two pounds of blubber you mean if you're if your whole tribe yeah all the tribal membership shared a whale whale it'd be seven pounds a piece it'd be seven pounds a piece that divides it out pretty good yeah that divides it out pretty good yeah your morning workout your muscle your morning workout your muscle your morning workout your muscle recovery the moment you're doing recovery the moment you're doing recovery the moment you're doing something intentional for your something intentional for your something intentional for your performance with the addition of performance with the addition of performance with the addition of creatine and more ag1 pro makes it creatine and more ag1 pro makes it creatine and more ag1 pro makes it easier than ever to maximize your easier than ever to maximize your easier than ever 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pay deposit account builder card activity is reported to credit bureaus unless you opt out results may vary and aren't guaranteed debit card transactions are not reported one progress services llc and mls id 2460509 see onepay.com forward slash licenses how is that oil is it stored as a liquid or a solid or how's it stored usually stored as a liquid so usually it's rendered real slow uh rendered down sometimes some people especially with seal they'll smoke like a cold smoke or they'll smoke at first but they'll render it down into oil smoke the yeah like the blubber the blubber and then you get a smoky oil oh really but you generally now people render that oil down into a like a mason jar like the salmon that's out there yeah and you can keep it like that for it's a bit like ever honey and cinnamon that don't really go bad i got you yeah i got you you could freeze it you can freeze the whale oil yeah um i spent some time with some tupac eskimo guys and they would have seal oil and i remember we would dip fish in it just like were you eating frozen raw frozen fish like little chunks of like actually frozen fish dipped in the seal oil and when you taste it man it would be like the real peppery like i can't even describe it like peppery like olive oil do you mean like a like a not a burn but you know what i'm saying there's like a pepper to it yeah bold what what how do you describe that whale oil is it mild is it like kind of grabs you when you taste it depends on who it is i mean it's pretty normal like yeah it's pretty mild for us yeah kind of everybody's kind of used to it but if you handed it to someone and they're like oh my god i'm gonna eat it and they're like oh my god i'm gonna eat it some kid like i don't like some kid that never had any kind of that stuff would that kid be like oh that's good or the kid be like man that is wild taste it's probably tastes like um like omegas okay your fish oil so okay so it's got like it's got that a little bit of it's got that fish oil taste to it and how do you how are you using it you're dipping meat in it yeah i mean you could use it a ton of different ways i'm sure there's still ways to expand that that palette now that you know once we get back into the mix but i mean generally like you said dipping fish or even bread or different things with with your dinner do you ever oil a pan with it i haven't but i mean you there's no reason you couldn't i don't know what you could cook with i don't know what the smoke temp is to be honest oh because it's rendered really low temperature i see it's super low temperature or you'll burn it i got right so you'll get a real like dark amber like you'll see first timers making uh like rendering whale oil and it's like real dark and you kind of get the the older folks who are like oh they know how to keep it clean and clear so it's like whiskey colored or something well so like generally it's like uh like light olive oil even lighter than that oh is that right clear oh okay it's not i mean it's not on the wild picture of being like honey no it's not like water but the like the smoked seal oil kind of a little closer to like an olive oil color yeah but generally it's like the clearer the better it's like you did a good job rendering it if it's nice and clean it's like you did a good job rendering it if it's nice and clean and clear is there a um does your commute does your community have a is is there a communal area where stuff gets done or do people would it be that hundreds of people would go home and all render oil on their own or do you have a big spot where you just render all the oil collectively and then hand it out well generally when the whale gets you know gets pulled up right you know drop elk it's there it's in that spot but we pull up the whale and it kind of gets distributed there and that's where the time is you know everybody's hustling to make sure it's taking care of business and then you know wherever you take that your portion you know probably similar to an elk you go home and okay clean it up make sure it's nice and good and then you take your section of the part and then you plan to do your oil got it that's that's your own business in your own area like it's cut up in a in a way where people that want some get some but then if you got your chunk of meat you go home and deal with your chunk of meat i got but not to say there can't be you know i'm sure like those are some of the things that that are really kind of frustrating to notice is you see other tribes and other places have these communal ceremonies of like they're celebrating um the uh teaching their like kids how to process these different animals and for us to not even let alone not only be not able to whale but not able to even engage in those ceremonies to physically show and show our younger kids how to do this kind of stuff you know and so the tribe's doing really well at you know hey the process of making paddles never died never will processes of you know making harpoons like we have our cultural and research center that has an incredible um display of of all of the all the technology for whaling and all of those you know there's folks who are well detailed and and you know making your harpoons and and teaching your kids to and and family how to do those things but for us to not be able to kind of you know it's kind of like that box at your end you think about being able to have those kind of ceremonies we're like hey macaws coming together like macadas but for just us to teach generations how to do this process and to get better at it how to handle the stuff yeah you mentioned porpoise you guys is you guys hunt seal and porpoise yeah and that's that's that's less like that's just kind of that's that's less like regulatory stuff involved in that there's regulations around that there's it's incidental take permits that we um get issued you know we work with uh um national marine fishery service again and our marine mammal biologists you know if we do any any type of incidental take what does incidental take mean gets caught up in fishing gear through oh i got you okay so that would be how you'd wind up with one right i got you yeah and then we there's a reporting system that we have to report that if you have if you have a porpoise what is that porpoise good for would you use it exactly how you use a whale pretty similar blubber skin meat yeah oil they actually do have back straps i've heard it's very good yeah same very good tasting you've heard that i've heard that but you haven't tried it but it's good steve it's word is where it is this can be good where it is it's great all right so i want to get into the time i want to get back to this timeline more and try to get like where the where the situation stands right now so the injunction goes in 2000 2001 what was it 2002 2002 2002 the federal government in all its forms no uh u.s whatever all the agencies it comes down we don't need to get into the details but basically it comes down hey there's an injunction the macaw you're done whaling 2002 but now you're talking about whaling again like you're getting ready to go you want to get everything squared away to go what what happened this time around so in 2004 we made an application for a waiver to uh um to go whaling under the remammal protection act and there's no process for it so we had to work with the government to develop that process as we went oh and then you had to ask them let's say a fellow wanted a waiver what would the waiver need to look like right and you got a legal team i mean you got lawyers we do like you just got lawyers getting paid to do this kind of stuff yes huh yes we do yeah and and so we've been in that process you know since 2004 since we first put in that We've had to reboot it a few times and so are they just, do they just kind of slow walking? it like yes they stall it yes but i mean for years for years yeah there's um you know you're you're looking at you know a lot of the um both scientific and the biological information you know with with the whale population and and so in the uh um you know in that process the government you know like anybody can sue the federal government right so that's their real concern it's like they don't want to get sued and lose so they're so the slow walking is so that they're thorough on their end no i understand and and yeah that's an area and it can withstand a challenging court i got you yeah so that's that's part of the part of why it's been delayed so long we think it's unreasonable um you know and now uh we went uh we were finally issued a waiver um in 2018 i believe is that the right year 2024 the waiver for the june the waiver or we applied for the waiver in 18 maybe it was what was that we had the 2400 page environmental impact statement that's that's what came out yeah so yeah anyway that you guys generated a 2400 page environmental impact statement no no uh no it did no it did yeah an environmental impact statement about what would happen if you got a whale right yes so once that was done then we would be able to apply for the waiver granted the waiver and then goes to the permit system oh here's what i'm here's where i'm a little bit confused but go ahead but i'll tell you what's confusing me okay so there's a alj administrative law judge hearing on on this and and you know we had to basically go through this court process bring in tell the government how we're going to do the hunt how we're going to manage it and bring in our cultural experts and all those you know daniel testified in that and and the judge recommended that we be granted the waiver okay that's what i was i was trying to get at earlier and in that timeline and then you know we're finally granted that waiver in in 2024 and then in march of 2025 we applied for a permit you know we're we're granted the waiver now you got to get a permit for how many whales so it's for um 20 up to 25 whales over a 10-year period okay yeah so okay that's what i was confused about okay is i was like if you look at just the pop population demographics of whales which i don't understand well but i gather these are long-lived low fecundity creatures but there are thousands of them so in my mind i'm like how could any serious person argue that harvesting a whale a year is going to have a population level impact when you factor in that you have this mortality happening from cruise ships you have mortality happening from entanglements you have mortality happening from strandings and then someone would say but if you get one that's gonna that's gonna tank the gray whale population now we agree with you 100 percent that seems like a heart that seems like such a weird it's like they're dying all over the place we're talking about oh whale but i guess if you're looking at 2.5 whales a year if you had said one whale a year would it have been a different conversation or would it have been all the same bs it probably would have been all the same bs it wouldn't have changed i don't think it would have changed anything you know i think i think our our opponents our adversaries on this you know they're absolutists they're absolutists and and so got you we're um the way we we propose to to do the hunt is um you know the most we could most whales we could take in any any year under this waiver is two okay you know because you can't take a half a whale right yeah so you can't take a half a whale and it's only one per hunt season so there's the hunt season that we're applying for is a um summer fall hunt starts july 1st goes through october 31st so you got like an opening day and everything yeah yeah yeah you guys you guys like white people you got like opening days and and if uh you know if we harvest a whale then that's done that permit for that period is done yeah and we have to do it again and we have to do it again and we have to do it again have to wait um for we can't go the very next year in that hunt period we got to wait until the following year oh took to go we we can also apply for a permit for a separate hunt season which is a winter spring goes from december to through may i got you and we could harvest a whale during that as well but once we harvest that whale then that that hunt period's done yeah so there's we wouldn't get more than two a year under under how it's structured right now and right now we're not proposing to go in that in that winter spring hunt you know it's it's more dangerous the whales are farther offshore um so it's it's more ideal to go in the summer summer fall hunt period what kind of ground are these gray whales covering like like what's their northern range and southern range because when they come by you they're coming through right right yeah they're coming through the eastern north pacifics that we're targeting um you know they go from baja california to the sakhalin islands uh you know way up i don't know sakhalin uh it's way up in the bering strait russia oh really yeah yes yeah that's her that's her feeding range so these seasons is your it's um it's it's different swings of a migration right like one i'm just assuming like one one is that they're sort of generally moving south and one they're generally moving north correct yeah i got you and that summer season they're generally moving north right now they're moving south to go down to the baja to have their calves and you know breeding huh and then they may now they are yeah so right now they're going past us they're feeding and you know slowly making their way down there and they have their calves and then the the male whale start making it up and the females make it up after them with their calves slowly okay oh when you um if you imagine the ideal whale is it a male or female male can you tell there is a way um you want to you want to explain how you you tell how a female is in the mail go ahead so um you have to stick your arm in them and if it goes a certain direction that's a male or a female but yeah but that's dead checking them yeah that's you can't live check them it's a little harder okay so there's not like it wouldn't be that um we have an observer that like a specialist um a marine specialist that identifies if it's a male or a female for us you know where we strike it because we can't strike a female we have to go after males oh okay that's okay yeah so it would be out of the question to kill a female with a calf yeah that's correct that's not gonna happen happen got it and you're targeting males yeah i see and whether we get get it or not those same whales we have the shared quota basically so if we don't get them it goes into their quota those two wheels that we're not getting oh that tribe okay uh yeah where are they located chakotkin they're russians hold me your quota goes to the russians okay yeah there's seriously yeah during the uh in when i explain and we we first agreed to be part of this international process yeah federal government wanted us to do that we said okay and so we went and did it um there's a there's a whaling quota you know given globally to whaling nations and that right through this process well there's an already established quota for for these gray whales that was mainly being taken by the chakotkins and up in russia and so when we first uh started working to get our international quota what we were asking for the chakotkins um you know we were able to build relationships with them and they they supported us and they were willing to give up part of their quota so that we was that right so that we can continue our whaling so it's an agreement so did you have to send some ambassadors up to meet with these guys yes yes and and talk this out and and talk it out and and spend time with them during their whaling activities and huh yeah and you guys were generally well received by them yes yes do they have the same arguments with the russian government not all right do they have the same level in negotiating with the russians like what are their treaties like i'm i'm unsure yeah i want i wonder if they have all the layers of government or if they just do their own thing or what that's like dealing with the russian government yeah i haven't been there myself um it's pretty remote more remote than we are so so i imagine they don't have to deal with them quite as much yeah not as much yeah yeah um we keep getting into the timeline leaving the timeline but we're like what are you waiting on right now you're not going to whale this summer or you might well it's it's still possible this summer it's still possible yeah it's still possible you know we're we're at the end of coming up on the end of july you know what there's the whales are still present you know that's that's kind of the factor you know the whales got to be there but yeah when they decide to leave you know then then they're gone yeah um but we're waiting on the secretary of commerce to um to sign the permit you're waiting on howard lutnick correct to sign the permit yes that's so really he's got to sign it he does or he's got to delegate someone to sign it and what what what's his what's his thinking we don't know we haven't been able to talk to him directly on this issue we've requested it we've requested government to government consultation on this which you know normally those are honored by the federal government um but these guys don't want to hear you out not too early to say not howard himself yet um but his uh yeah his deputies his deputies we've talked with them they're super supportive they've been great oh i got you all right so there's no resistance there no we don't and so it's it's a little puzzling for us frustrating for sure but like you mean like the receptive they're not dismissive but then there's not the signature yet right right and i would say it's even more than receptive i'd say they're supportive supportive yeah okay so let's say i mean is it is there a possibility that tomorrow someone emails you over like a sick how does it happen like one day someone signs it and then there it is yes so we have a uh a pending permit application i've actually signed my part of it already for 2025 and 2027 was it a docusign no was it digital no it wasn't a paper document there's a paper document yeah and and we we've well our understanding last year was that we were we're both going to sign this and it would be effective august 1st of 2025 okay and we're preparing for that moment we're working with uh with our media teams and you know going to be prepared for any whether it's pushback or you know people will want to tell the story right you know it's going to get some coverage and yeah so we were i mean we were just weeks away two weeks away from what we thought you know being issued our first permit last year last year and and then nothing happened and and we yeah it just went radio silence and that's under the trump administration yeah that's what's real puzzling about it i mean you know these these types of things something you know you know hunting and outdoor type stuff and you know those things uh seem right up this administration's alley right you know they seem to be supportive yeah like stripping regulations yeah less regulation those sort of things so yeah we're not sure what what's going on but this is you you might want to not even answer this and i would probably i wouldn't but i'll ask anyway just because of what you just said is it possible to say something like this is it possible to say that that that who's better friends to the macaw like generally republicans or democrats or is that not a possible you can't answer it no i've answered that question uh a number of times and and uh i think both of them have their they have their points of that's what i think they have their points of where the friendship ends right um you know in general you know and this is a pure generality is that you know democrats will support our treaty right up until the point it it starts conflicting with um labor and jobs oh you know republicans they'll support our treaty right up into the point it starts affecting industry oh so like the eight like the age-old conflicts you just like find your own indian way into the age-old conflicts but here's the thing between democrats and republicans yeah yeah here's the thing is that that uh our treaty rights should be non-partisan yeah if it was a well-written treaty you'd that it would be yeah that it would be debatable so but i mean as you know i mean documents don't always anticipate every development right but what's funny about not what's funny what's interesting about treat like we look at the u.s constitution right so the founding fathers didn't come in and be like they didn't make a big passage about ai right so then you got to get down the road and you got to say well how would they have looked at this issue based on what we know about how they looked at other issues how might they look at like an ai issue okay but but what what's and you know way better me but if you look at tribal treaties it literally contemplates hunting fishing landmarks things that that they're really clear about i agree yes i mean it's like you can't get any more clear like you guys are cool to go hunting and fishing here right so it's not like it's like it's like you're contemplating ai you're contemplating like a very concrete specific activity so that people find so many things to debate about it is that you know i understand the complexities but it's just it's different because it's not abstract it's like your fa your your father's argued this out they did yeah and brought up like hey we need we eat this is what we eat we need to be able to get our food here's the deal you know it's a situation where you're like arguing about it which i understand it's complicated especially something like whales well we're not even arguing right now yeah we're just waiting wait 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credit bureaus unless you opt out results may vary and aren't guaranteed debit card transactions are not reported one progress services llc and mls id 2460509 see onepay.com forward slash licenses if if you all of a sudden get the permit you also get the signature Do you got a team, you know, you don't call it, do you got a crew? Is there a crew ready to roll? They got the gear straight. They got the plan put together. Yeah, we have, I mean, we got some additional training that will have to be done, you know, cause you know, to be able to go tomorrow, you know, that, that, you know, if we get the permit signed tomorrow, there isn't a team that's going to launch tomorrow. I see. Yeah. Yeah. How do you get to be, who selects the crew? Our whaling commission. Okay. So you can't just freelance it. No. Two dudes can't just be like, hell, I'm going like that. Wouldn't fly. No, it doesn't. Okay. No, it has the, it goes through the tribe, the whaling commission. Yes. Got it. And, and how do you apply to be like, if you want to be on crew, what do you got to do? Who's on the crew? Yeah. So the, the way the, the whaling commission handles, um, that kind of stuff is essentially, uh, the, you know, you, you're interested in being a captain. Okay. You're responsible for the crew. So the captain is the one who will apply for the permit and the council, um, the tribal council's ultimate authority that signs the permit for the, the crew. So if you're going to be a captain, you, you know, you gather your crew, you do everything you need to do, say, you know, like you're doing for a, a hunt for whatever you're going to pick your guys. And this is what we're going to do. This is the plan. Train up, whatever. But the captains, you know, selects his crew, make sure they, they got everything going and he's going to be the one to take the crew out and to actually do the, do the hunt. So that captain goes to the commission and gets the okay. What if you had eight captains? Well, so the commission will select the captains, the captains will select their crew and the commission will make a recommendation to the council of, of, you know, who should gather the permit. And based on who's, you know, who's ready there, there might be one captain that's ready. There might be eight. And we've even talked about, um, doing things like, um, you know, having multiple crews and, and, you know, not your first hunts, not always successful can be, you know, but it's not always. And so we've talked about having different crews hunting at different times. Um, that requires a, a, a couple of different technicalities, um, you know, tribal hunt observers hunting, both communication to make sure you're not. Uh-huh. Doubling up, but, um, there's a lot of, of different ways that, that we've discussed internally on how to handle and on how to handle, you know, multiple crews, multiple captains and. Got it. And, um, even having, uh, the positions of the whalers just kind of, um, trained up in multiple positions so that, you know, people get sick or people get hurt or, you know, you can swap around and you can move. And so. What would be the attributes of a captain? He's coming out of what is, is he, is he, is he probably. A commercial fisherman? Is he probably a fisherman? I mean, I'll, I'll hand that one over to Daniel, but I, I imagine he's gotta be well versed in the sea and. Yeah. Yeah. Well versed in the sea, um, knowing the history, um, actually knowing, um, the whales. Okay. Personally spending time, you know, on the water, you know, observing whales, um, knowing positions in the canoe, um, how to make the harpoons, paddles, all that, all those things. So. Got it. So they gotta be invested. That'd be invested. They gotta be invested in it. Yes. And have a reasonable claim to why they should be doing it. Yes. For sure. Got it. So if someone comes up with like a crackpot idea, they're going to get weed, they're going to get weeded out. They're going to get weeded out for sure. Yeah. How, how big is the commission? 20. About 24. Oh, no kidding. Are they all tribal? They're all, um, either heads or, um, descendants of like traditional heads of families. And so that's, that's what I wanted to get into a little bit. But it's like, traditionally you're brought up as a whaler, captain or leader because it's central to the, like I said, the society of the tribe. And so it's like, it's not, Hey, we're going to go shoot an elk. We're going to go grab our permit. But like, it's a lifestyle. Okay. Right. The, the training, the mindset, even just who you are as a person, if you're going to be a captain, you're, you're already set apart. I understand. And you're, you're brought up in a way, like you're a leader. You're a, you know, take care of your family. You know, like you said, spent time in the ocean, spent time in the sea, you know, whales breathing patterns, fluke, fluke prints. Like you kind of know. I see. You know, you're going to be. Yeah. Like they've been prepared for this their whole life. Yeah. Is there a clan system with the Makah? Do you guys, are you guys from different clans? So the tribe has five traditional villages. Okay. And the five traditional villages are kind of what make up the reservation now. So we have Ozette, we have Sueyaz, we have Wayach, Dia, and Baheda. So those are the five villages that kind of make up the tribe. Now, but as far as clans go, everybody kind of, you know, where you come from, you know, what family you come from, what village you come from. Okay. And you kind of. So people might associate, it's like a step down from Makah would be that you'd associate by village. And family, village and family. Village and family. You kind of tie your family, you know, where your village, everybody knows who comes from what village for the most part. And that's just part of the, how the oral history has continued to transpire is everybody understands who's family. Who comes from who. And that kind of gets into our, our potlatch system of, you know, and all, and in the whaling commission, the different, there'd be representation from all the villages. Yeah. And multiple, multiple families from multiple people from all villages and they come together. It's a heads of, it's a heads of family type structure. Heads of family. Heads of family rather than clan. It's, you know, we, that's how we associate each village would have so many heads of family that would be part of. That village's governance of, of their village and, and, and, you know, they're different number of seats per village. And that was up to the village to decide how many, I got it, how many seats they wanted filled as heads of family. On these whaling decisions and captain selection and, and when to, when to push on it and try to do it and when to not, is it, is it contentious or do you guys usually hit a consensus? We don't disagree on anything, Steve. No, never. No, it's, it, it can get contentious. There can be, yeah. Certainly. Does it, do you settle it, do you settle by vote or do you hash it out until there's a consensus? Well, I think there's attempt to reach consensus, but you know, at the end there is a voting mechanism. Okay. Yeah. So just any, any sort of issue would be eventually might be resolved by a vote. Yes. Yeah. I got you. So what will happen? Let's say in two years, so you, you'd got this relationship with the commerce department under Howard Lutnick right now. Let's say in two years, um, it's a new administration at that point. Are you like, Oh my God, now we got to start all the way over again. Or is it, is there a chance that it would be smooth? Well, it, there definitely be the concern that we got to reboot the waiver process. You know, that, that would, you know, that would be concerning, but, um, or the permitting process, sorry. You know, we've, we've already been granted the waiver, you know, that can't be walked back, but you know, we need a permit. So yeah, I don't know. I don't know what administration change would do. We've been through a lot of them. Yeah. Yeah. Who was president when Stevens was the negotiating all those treaties? Oh, Buchanan. You've been through a few administrations. Yeah. Hey, here's what, here's what I wanted to ask. Oh, sorry. Uh, Lupe, um, we've been having a lot of conversations, you know, we, a lot of fish and game. Um, and some of the guys work here fish a lot and we've been having all these conversations about like PFAS chemicals and fish health warnings and fish. If you had to rate, like, you know, in our, in our world. In our world, it would be that, um, you know, like tuna, that's a questionable fish for heavy metals, contamination, our own state. It has now advisories about PFAS chemicals and freshwater fish here is, uh, how, how much are you seeing this stuff in, in, in whale and whale fat? Cause I mean, they're like a mega accumulator, you know, just for listeners to understand. I mean, it's, it's picture that picture that there's a fish that a small fish that eats plankton. He's not accumulating a bunch of heavy metals, but let's say there's a fish that eats fish that eats fish. So every fish he eats, he's absorbing all the things that not just that they ate, but that what they ate, ate right. And you get to be where you have these certain fish. Fish that are loaded because they're accumulating. They're just eating fish. They ate fish. So as a whale, um, is a whale like a, a, a bioaccumulator of environmental toxins? There, there's not much data on it. I mean, what I, what I have found was they, they have done some studies on some whales that whether they were, um, you know, ship strikes or beach themselves. and I believe they detected levels. in the blubber, they didn't find it. I think there was like maybe 20 whales, but a lot of them were inconclusive and they, they didn't find any in the liver. It sounded like, and then like the red meat, there wasn't as much, but I mean, you know, you could see the tribes that have, have been eating whale for all these years and you know, it is medicine. And I mean, the, even the government is getting back to like food is medicine, you know, like turn the triangle upside down, now red meat's at the top. Oh yeah, man. And you know, it normalizes glucose metabolism, you know, whale meat, it's been shown to do that. You can see that in the, in the tribes that are still eating it, you know, on a daily basis. And it's, it's their main fat source, you know? Yeah. And you can see in those where the health related diseases are not as large as, you know, say like a colostomy. Yeah. Or like a lot of the, the tribes, you know, that got hit with like, you know, the commodities, you remember them, you know? No, no, no. So commodities, you know, it was a. Oh yeah. The food commodity. Yeah, yeah, yeah, like Western, like Western foods, you know, introduced into our diet. Yeah. Once we laid down our harpoons, you know, 12 years before anybody else started to, you know, knowing we were going to get back to it, but still, you know, traditionally eating all of our, our foods and. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Which even there's, we had elders that were, you know, they were probably around when we had our last couple of hunts in the twenties and they lived to be in their hundreds. Oh, they were enjoying good long lives on that diet. He could speak more on that as well, but you know, the, I think it was like with the gray whale on the few of the villages up there, because it, they get about, I think they're, they have six or seven. 16,000 people that they get whale distributed to, and they get about, I think it's 107 pounds of gray whale meat and 26% of them, I think it was, they said it was their main food, like their main fatty food. So is that right? Yeah. I mean, and so even us reintroducing. So yeah, that's wild. There's like people whose main, like that's their main, a main meat would be whale meat. Yeah. Um, and. And even for us, you know, introducing it back into our diet, which has been missing since the twenties, since we stopped and you can, you can see the, you know, diabetes and whatever else, you know, the health related diseases are pretty rampant and, you know, and then even with those, you know, those microplastics and everything in the food that I believe it is something that will need to be studied more once we're, if we're whaling on a regular basis, I'm sure it's something we're going to be able to study, you know, to see if it, if it is higher because they are eating fish, eating fish, eating fish. Yeah. But then you got the question too, of, of like relative to like, let's say they do have some chemical contamination. It's like relative to what, cause then you got to ask yourself, I don't know, is the other stuff that everybody's eating. So great. Yeah. There's, you know, there's a lot of focus on wild fish, you know, I'm like, I don't know. Are they checking everything? Like, have you. Have you gone to the grocery store and checked all that stuff? Like is wild fish really worse than all the junk that's in the grocery store? It's definitely better than farm fish. Yeah. It's like, it winds up being like this totally relative thing, but there's all this focus on contaminations and fish. I'm like, I'd have to see the data on all the junk that normal people eat. Well, now it's getting into lab grown, lab grown meat, but I don't think no one's making lab grown whale meat. Don't quote me. I don't think our, our test we did on the mercury for gray whales are, I don't think it was much. That'd be interesting if they're kind of low. Yeah. Cause one thing they're not doing is they're not eating, um, they're not eating big fish, right? But like tuna, big tuna eats small tuna. They're, they're eating bio, like tuna are eating bio-accumulators and a lot of times a tuna's eating a fish that's eating a fish that eats fish. So it's just different, but you can picture with a whale eating a lot of short lived plankton feeders that maybe they don't get loaded up. Yeah. And if you eat, like, say you eat whale meat and blubber and then cut out all the processed stuff, is the whale meat with chemicals and toxins better than a diet of processed food with chemicals, with chemicals and toxins. That's, that's kind of what I was getting at. Yeah. Do you got, let me ask you a question. This is just on, on the behalf of non, non-natives. You know, a thing we always argue about, man, is whether it's okay to call you guys Indians or not. Give me your take on this, like, like, like just for listeners sake, like a dude, like here's a dude like me, a dude like me. And I say, you guys are Indians. Well, just for people out there who want to do the right thing, but they get confused. What does that mean to you? Steve say quidditch jug quidditch jug. Yeah. See, so is it offensive or not offensive? We're not too uptight about that. Okay. Most people don't. Most, most of our people, you know, it's for us, we say, yeah, you can call us Indians at our treaty. It's the Indians of Cape flattery in there. Yeah. But you might not like that treaty. Well, I'm not asking, I'm gonna ask this to be cute. I'm like, it's like an honest thing. No, there's not a month goes by. I'm not, I'm not kidding you. There's not a month goes by that. I don't have a conversation with someone. Yeah. About the appropriateness. Sure. Of native, like native American. First nations, native Alaskan, you know what I mean? Like, like the appropriateness of it, and maybe it's offensive that I'm even asking, but I'm gonna ask anyway, cuz there's people, there's like people that wanna do that. There's people that wanna be respectful, but there's a lot of mixed signals and feelings. I remember asking earlier, I said, Chupac Eskimo, I asked a Chupac Eskimo. I said, man, you know, a lot of people like in our culture, a lot of people say that they shouldn't say that. And he goes, if I'm not at Eskimo, I don't know. I don't know what I am. That's right. Cuz he goes, I'm a Chupac Eskimo. I don't know what they told you back home, but that's what I am. No, and that, you know, that's how we are. Any English word is the wrong word, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I, that's, that's my take on it. It's like, you know, you, you tried to say quidditch, that's what we call ourselves. Yeah. You know, but any English word is the wrong word, but I don't stress about it. But there's some of you learned to live with and learned not to live with. Yeah, I think it's more, it's more in the, you know, to me, it's, it's more, how are you saying it? Right. Yeah. You know, it's, how are you saying it? How are you using it? How are you saying it? You know. That, that's what I would, that's what I, that's how I kind of have imagined it. Yeah. Is, is, is in that way. But I, but maybe am I, am I right to say that the best thing, like, I can't say your word, but if I just said he's macaw. That's fine. Yeah. I'm not like, well, I'm not, that's what someone else called me. Yeah. Like that's respect. That's respect. That, that shows respect. If I say that, it doesn't show a lack of respect. Correct. It doesn't show a lack of respect. Yeah. If, and if I say native American, that's cool. That's cool too. All right. All right. Yeah. You know, like a good example, the Washington Redskins. Yeah. It wasn't the, wasn't the family of the chief of the head that they used on their helmet for that Redskins that got rid of it. It was. Those other groups. What do you mean? Like it wasn't, so that, that picture was actually from a chief in that area. Oh, they didn't have a problem with it. They didn't. No. Yeah. Huh. There's probably a hundred stories like that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um. Our high school mascot is the Red Devils. Your high school mascot? Yes. Still now? Still now. Yeah. Do you, do you find that that's a problem? No. No. That's interesting. Yeah. But there's gotta be a lot of it. A lot of it's like you said, who, where it's coming from. Right. You know, who's saying it, where it's coming from. Yeah. I would like to see a mascot that. The Whalers did. With our own name. Yeah. Or with your own name. Yeah. You know, in our language. Yeah. There's a, there's a tribe near us that, that did that. And, uh, but finding one that's easy. Easy to say in, in Quidditch language is, is tough, you know, that, so there's a school mascot Chitwins, you know, it's a, it's a tribal. Okay. Tribal community. And you know, that just means bear. Got it. It's like, it's like easy to say anybody can say it and, and it's a great mascot. Can, can, can any of you guys give me a sense of what your language sounds like? Just, I mean, just say something, whatever. I don't know. Anything that. Just that guy. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Anything that. I don't know. I don't know. Anything that. I don't know. Anything that. I don't know. Anything that. Anything that. I don't know. Anything that. I don't know. Anything that. okay so um if i if like you go up you got like um um the haida simshan would those have been would there have been cultural similarities uh or just very different they're pretty different yeah yeah so we're just just south of haida we had um yeah i guess our northern northern end prince rupert we had ties in with them okay well haida guay kind of got different that's a different way at different people yeah yeah people yeah if you guys get this thing signed this paper signed would you ever would you consider photocopying me a photocopy that sending me that the permit the permit yeah with like uh this all like a permit i just want to frame it hang it in the studio yeah with a photocopy of your signed permit i'm sure you yeah we're like you're waiting no a photocopy of your whale tag yeah we could do that just some kind of i'd like to have i just like to see a document for you i'd like to see it now i want just i want a photocopy from you guys i don't want it i don't want to have to go through legal yeah just a document that's sort of like is like what what a whale permit looks like all right i'd like to see a whale permit they probably don't have like little date things you notch out and stuff on them no no i'd like to see one and i wish you guys i don't know man not i don't know i hope you guys permit comes in thank you yeah i hope your permit comes in it's just like to me it feels to me it feels like there's not a situation where there's not a situation one where sort of the general commercial fishing fleet is going to re-engage in whaling and there's going to be like a resource battle about it you know i mean you guys got a claim to it it's not a thing that's going to get overblown there's a limited number of there's a limited number of groups that that have it be that's part of their tradition it's such a small harvest it just seems like it's like it's doing it seems like it's doing enormous good it's doing enormous good for your community and it's not doing any harm to other it's not doing any harm to other communities you know what i'm saying yeah no we we're not doing any harm to other communities we agree it's just like it's like it's kind of like a it's it's not you know you say like a win win it's or win it's like a win nothing like it doesn't mean like it doesn't impact my life right it's not i just feel like it's not my business i think it's like if it does you guys good and you want to do it it's not going to tank the gray whale population if you guys are getting whale every year yeah it's like a it's it's it's it just doesn't feel like my business you know what i mean i think it's i think it's important to mention also that it's it's ceremonial and subsistence it's not for the tribe's pleasure it's not for um anything other than it's who we are as a people yeah and getting back to that and it's not about going out to do it just because we can it's it's central to the tribe yeah so that's the importance so when it comes to respect as far as you know names and what to call everybody like as far as respect goes like i would like to see people understand and get to know who the tribes are like you want to know macaw go learn about macaw yeah um you know joshua reed um dr josh reed has a really great book called the sea is my country oh really did extensive research not only at macaw but um across other tribes too to get their perspective of macaw oh really and it's it's incredible is my country yeah and so i haven't even heard of that one it's yeah it's incredible and so we'll get you copy but it's it's good so if i mean if you want that that book that book resonates with your understanding of stuff yes yes yeah it's you know i'm saying because sometimes you'll read books that come from observers yeah but then the people being observed are like that like that's not how we understand it to be yeah no josh was a great partner um he really came in on behalf of the people of macaw and you know was able to tell the story the way it happened you know what's pretty funny is there's this there's this french dude named jacques cartier and he goes over to the he lands over in on the canadian coast north of maine goes up the st lawrence river in the late 1500s and he meets these he meets the these people called the static hondens they're like a saint lawrence iroquois iroquois and um he's like he's got this passage in his journal where he's like here's what's up with their religion you really like man i just don't think they would describe their religion that way that's funny he's like they think this this and this and that's it uh you know it'd be like if someone it'd be like it's as bad as if someone said hey i went you know i went to america there's christians they think that when god gets mad he floods their planet that's about you know that's about the main bit that's it he's like so there's that explained yeah there's a there's a story in in that book that josh did that really you know puts it in perspective what the ocean meant to us and means to us today but captain mirrors when he was you know doing his uh exploring and and trading came into our area and, you know, met with, you know, our head chief, I guess, and, um, to get safe passage through that area. Cause, cause he was, he was meeting with other tribes coming down Vancouver Island from the North South. And they was like, you're going to be entering Macaw waters and, you know, they're, you want to make sure you get their permission. So he had a meeting and was trying to get, get permission and, you know, trade trading some things to, you know, there's like an exchange, uh, exchange of goods there to get that safe passage. Well, he tried to low ball us, right. He didn't want to pay what he paid other tribes for safe passage. And we knew it. And so we didn't let him pass and he was looking for furs, you know, as that was part of his, he's trying to gather up furs in the Northwest. And, and so, you know, our, our, uh, people stayed out on, you know, in their canoes and basically kept his ship from transiting the Strait of Juan de Fuca, entering the Strait of Juan de Fuca for several weeks. And then, and while that was being done, we sent another contingency to go up the Strait of Juan de Fuca and Puget Sound and, and buy up all the furs. And then we let them pass. The price went up when he had to come back and deal with us. Right. So there's another, I don't want, I don't know why Cartier is on my mind, but there's nothing like that with this Cartier dude is he kept, he gets the mouth of St. Lawrence and he builds this giant cross. And, um, they write like God saved the King or something on there. And they pray there and the local, the local Indians come up and they're like, what's going on with the cross? And he explains to them like everything you see, everything you see. Is our land. And he punts on it. He tells them, no, this is just showing people where to cut in. It's a, it's a navigational marker. And that's how he explains it. His journal is like, no, no, you got me all wrong. It just shows you where to turn left. Cause he didn't want to get into it. Well, man, I appreciate you guys coming on. It means a lot. You'd come out and talk about all this. Yeah. Thank we, we, uh, we're happy to, you know, get that education out there. You know, we, we, we have a part of our culture and, and, and part of who we are is we're not able to realize that right now. And, and, you know, there's, we want to be whole, you know, understood. We want to carry on what we asked for in our treaty. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, and it's important. It changes. Whaling changes lives in our community. Um, for the better. It makes our community better. I can tell it's true. Well, the guys, thank you all for doing this. Appreciate it. And thank you for the gift. Yeah. You bet. These guys brought me some sockeye salmon jarred up. It's beautiful. McCall gold, McCall gold. You don't have to share, you know, that's, I'm glad you brought that up. Cause I might've felt conflicted later. I might've, I might've wanted to slip, fill a Nate jar here, man, but thanks a lot. 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