EP #91- On Overcoming Self Doubt, Redefining Success, and Celebrating a Night Off Drinking with Elizabeth Gascogine, Founder of Absence of Proof

(gentle music) - Succeeding will not bring you joy unless you are prioritizing your mental health. Like I was the most successful that I had been in my current project and I was the most unhappy that I've been in years. And it was because I was not prioritizing anything that simply brought me joy. Like I wasn't doing anything just for the heck of it. - Welcome back to another episode of Every Day in Dorfins, a mental health podcast that focuses on the importance of finding joy and happiness and daily living. I'm your host, Stella Stuffinapolis and I am so excited to share the last episode of 2022. And I couldn't think of a more perfect guest to have come onto the podcast to wrap up this year. She is someone that I met only a few months ago, but it feels like I've known her for years and it's been so incredible to see the amazing community that she's built just over the past few months. Elizabeth Gascoin is the founder of Absence of Proof, which is a non-alcoholic bar pop-up and online shop. And since August of 2022, just over the past few months, she's hosted so many amazing events centered around a night off of drinking. She's been featured in publications like Guest of a Guest, The Gothamist, Edible Manhattan, and many more. And in this interview, Elizabeth and I talk about the founder's journey, how she started absence of proof, why she's so passionate about the non-alcoholic space and building a community there, how she deals with criticism online and on social media, practices for overcoming self-doubt and reframing negative thoughts, and ultimately what brings Elizabeth a bit of joy and happiness and endorphins in daily living. I'm so thrilled for you all to hear this episode and it is definitely a very special one that I saved to release at the end of the year, especially as we move into 2023, thinking about trying to practice healthier habits, such as limiting or alcohol consumption, definitely lots of food for thought there, but with that, before we get into the interview, I have a brief message from my sponsor, Inker. - Hi, Elizabeth. - Hi, Stella. - Thank you so much for coming onto the podcast. - It's an absolute honor. Like we have been waiting months and months. - It's honestly crazy when I think about May, I think is when we first met, like six months ago or something, and to give my listeners context to how we met and how our paths came together, we were both auditioning for teaching, a teaching position at CorePower, and I think it was just fate. We're like the world brought us together and we sat down, started talking, and ever since that day, it's been so incredible from my perspective to see everything that you've built and that you're continuing to grow with absence of proof. So I am just thrilled to get to chat more about that this afternoon. - Yeah, well, the feeling is definitely mutual. I've been looking forward to being worthy of coming on every day in the ordinance for months, so I'm so excited to be here. - Well, let's get into it. So what got you interested in the whole non-alcohol space and non-alcohol community? Like I know a little bit of your personal story, but can you share a bit more about what got you interested in that particular part of wellness for my listeners? - Yeah, no. So I, I mean, I love all things wellness. As you said, you know, we're both very into yoga. I think the non-alcohol space in particular I'm very passionate about based on my own history with alcohol. I got sober for the first time when I was 19, and I had a very unhealthy relationship with drugs and alcohol in my teenage and early adulthood. And so that was a really important step for me, and I quit drinking and doing pretty much everything else for three years. And I felt like in those three years, my life completely transformed. And my life finally became an alignment with what I wanted it to look like. You know, I had gotten my job that I had always wanted. I felt like I had had, I finally had healthy relationships and healthy friendships. I reintroduced alcohol after those three years because I felt like I had achieved what I was trying to achieve with sobriety. That is like getting in a stable place, et cetera. And so I reintroduced alcohol and moderation. And I felt like I could actually have a like a healthy relationship with alcohol. I didn't feel like I was binge drinking. It wasn't destructive to my relationships. But earlier this year, I just felt like it's not destructive, but what is it adding? And like, I guess my goal is I want to be spending every minute that I can doing something additive to my life and like that's making me a better person or a healthier person. And I just didn't feel like alcohol was doing either of those things. Yeah. So you were 19 when you decided to give it up. Correct. Was it difficult to come to that decision and actually execute on not drinking for three years? Like, for example, I gave a coffee for like almost a year. And it was hard at the beginning, then it got easier. And now I've like rebounded. So how did you stick to better habits and like actually choose to not drink as much or just cut out drinking entirely? Yeah. I think two different answers for both periods when I cut out drinking. When I was 19, that was really hard. Because one, I felt like I had like an emotional dependency on getting intoxicated because I was dealing with a lot of things that I, a lot of like traumas that I hadn't worked through yet. So I really felt like I was using alcohol and weed as a coping mechanism. And so that was hard because I was dealing with that. And also you're dealing with the social pressures of your in college. And in college, like everybody's partying all the time. So I felt like really like an outcast. I felt like I didn't really connect with my peers. So that was very challenging. And initially I was like, I'm just going to stop drinking for a year and see what happens. And then in that year, I just noticed so many things in my life get so much better. So I was like, what if I do another year and another year? And then after three years, my life was really I had everything I ever wanted. So anyway, short answer is yes, it was challenging the first time. This time I feel like it's not very different. I mean, one of the reasons I created absence of proof was because I didn't want my social life to look different when I stopped drinking than when I was drinking. But I don't feel the social pressure that I really used to. I feel like all my friends and family are super supportive. You're not going to be like, I don't like you because you don't drink alcohol. You know, like it's just I would never associate with people that were judged. Judging like that. There might be some people on TikTok who think that, but we'll get there later. We'll get there later. In college, I completely resonate with that point around. They're being pressured in a school environment to drink because everything social is revolved around. Drinking, alcohol consumption. But I think when you graduate in your young adulthood, working, for example, being in a city like New York, I think the narrative is less so, oh, it's not cool to not drink, but just so happens to be that every single social situation is revolving around alcohol. So even if you choose to not drink, it doesn't feel like there are necessarily spaces where it's okay to just not have a drink or sober spaces where there just is an alcohol being served. So that's why I think what you're building is so creative. And there's such a need for this because I think there's a bit of a difference between college drinking culture and cultural nuances to drinking at a younger age versus what it's like to engage with alcohol when you're a young adult living in a city like New York. Absolutely. I think that you hit the nail on the head. I think now in our age range, it's less about, you're not cool if you don't drink in the way that it can be in high school or college. And more about all of your activities revolve around it. What are you gonna do on a Friday night if you're not drinking? It's kind of like-- You're not gonna like go to the park. And not like the winter. It's freezing. Exactly. And even when you do go to a park, it's like, well, who's bringing the wine? Yeah, it's true. And I think what's been cool about options of proof is like, I'm not even trying to eliminate that ritual. Like I'm just substituting it with something that's not alcoholic. So like, I'll bring a bottle of non-alcoholic wine and I'll still have that ritual of chilling in the park with my friends. Or being at a party or something like that and still having a nice cocktail, but there's just no alcohol in it. So you're not getting the negative consequences. But I do feel like you're still getting the placebo effect of being out and that kind of energy and all of that. I really like that you said the word ritual because when I was trying to eliminate coffee, it was so difficult for me because not only did I like the taste but what I really loved was the morning routine, like the ritual around waking up, having my cup of coffee, getting started with my day. And until I found a substitute that I liked, which at the time was matcha. And I still do, but things have changed. (laughs) Speaking, you know, back a year ago, I started just really like matcha. And what I found was that it was a great substitute for keeping the ritual alive. And so it doesn't really matter like what you're substituting. It's really about like the feeling around the community, the ritual aspect. And so I really, I just, I really resonated with like that terminology that you use 'cause I think there's a lot of parallels between other behavior changes that can be made in life and the alcohol specific ones that we're talking about today. - Absolutely. I think like when I think of, I don't know, I'm not single anymore, but when I was dating in New York, like I felt like cheers in your having nice glass of wine, like automatically made the evening more intimate or more romantic and like, it didn't feel like you're at like a lunch or something, you know, and now that I don't have that, like I've replaced those things with non-alcoholic wines or making a really nice cocktail. And I can still have those rituals with my partner and feel like it's like fancy or date night or something like that without alcohol. So yeah. - I wanna talk a little bit more about how you actually started doing your residencies at Cobra Coffee. So I had the privilege of knowing you pre-absence of proof and I got to see a little bit of like the behind the scenes of everything that went into developing the drinks, figuring out the venue, just kind of like all the details that went into putting on so many successful events. Whereas a lot of people on TikTok probably encountered you for the first time is this person in New York that's creating this community where it's like totally okay and acceptable to not have an alcoholic drink. So for people that are just introduced to your profile or who are just listening to this, can you talk a little bit more about the behind the scenes and really like the inception of building this brand? - Oh my gosh, it's crazy to think about, 'cause we didn't meet before it all started. Yeah, I mean, I think it was just, this is so cliche, but it was every single day, I was like, I'm just gonna do one thing that gets me closer to the school. And my original goal was to open an alcoholic bar in New York. So originally, I was gonna rent out this pop-up space for like a week and build out like this whole proof of concept bar and basically just hope people should like show it up and then take that to investors. And then I was telling that to my partner who is like a numbers guy and he was like, no, no, no, we're not doing that. Like we think smaller first, I guess. So that's really a lesson that I took away from it. So anyway, so I was like, okay, what is like one small step that I can do? And I was like, okay, first we need drinks. So I gotta figure out how to make a cocktail. So I would just Google like all the classic cocktails and then I would go to Spirit It Away and talk to me here in Douglas and all of the amazing people in our industry that we know and love. Shout out. Shout out, duck really. I mean, I just cannot give enough shout outs to people in this industry. Everyone has been so supportive and helpful. And I remember like me here breaking down like, okay, it's not a one-to-one ratio. Like you don't need one ounce of rum in a regular cocktail to one ounce of something else. Like you need to play around with it. So learning the drinks was a big first step. I think the second step was finding a venue. And in New York, that's really, really hard. And these are really expensive. So I kind of emailed a bunch of people, no response. They were like, who is this girl trying to throw a mocktail party? Or it was like crazy expensive. I know one coffee shop quoted me like 10 grand for the night or something. And I was like, I would have known some a lot of mocktails to rent out 10 grand for the night. But I got introduced through a friend to the owners of Cobra Coffee who could not be more helpful, kind, supportive, again, not enough kind words in the world to describe the relationship that I have with them. And they were like, let's do it. Like they were like, this sounds like a really cool concept. They all drink. They didn't really understand it first, I will say. But I was like, I think we can, I wanted to sell them on it. So we got there and through the first event. And they were like, oh my god. And there's like 200 people here. This is insane. And then from there, just grew. And we got better every time. So massive success, the first event, which I was so upset that I had to miss because I was traveling. But you launched your first pop up at the end of August, I believe. And yeah, I think August 5th. Yes. So you launched your first pop up at the beginning of August. Then you came back again in September, which I was so thrilled to be a part of. And then you launched these residencies in them throughout the month of October. So can you talk a little bit about the strategy that you had around continuing to come back to Cobraik? And I know we're in the month of November now. So can you share a little bit about upcoming popups that you're hosting and what you're thinking about through the end of the year? Yeah. I mean, really every single event is like testing and learning for me. So as you've seen, I'm sure anyone who's listening, who's been to an event, seeing it changes every time. The menu changes. That was all very strategic. I want to put on the absolute best events that I can. And so I'm going to change things every time to see what people resonate with, what's the customer feedback. And so a lot of people were like, we want you to open a permanent location or we want to have popups every weekend. So I was like, OK, let's test that and see what happens. And that's what the residency was in October was every weekend. And it was amazing. I mean, I kept showing up, which I was honestly really scared was not going to happen. So it was a really great learning experience. I think we really honed in on the drinks. And then in November, I'm taking a little bit of step back from the in-person events to try to build some of the other aspects of the business that I'm really excited about that'll hopefully allow non-alcoholic products to be recipes to be with people that are not just in New York. So that's what I'll say about that. So I'm excited. And then we're also doing a friendsgiving event, which will just be really special because the absence of proof community-- this again, so cheesy-- but I really think that the people that I've met through this has been the most incredible part. Yeah. And when you're creating a community where like-minded people can come together, it's such an incredible energy. From the events that I've gone to, I've gotten to meet so many interesting people who, I think, fall along the spectrum of the sober curiosity movement, which I really like. Because personally, I don't consider myself to be completely sober. I do drink alcohol, but what I love about the community that you're building is that there is a space for non-alcoholic options. Because I think in maybe my routine, or if I'm going to have a night out, maybe I'll mix some of the drinks that night as alcoholic and others as non-alcoholic. That way, it's just like a healthier alternative. Or if I really don't want to drink that night, then I know I can just rely on the non-alcoholic products. And I think creating a space where that's fine, and that's like, OK, has allowed me to meet so many interesting people who are kind of on a similar wavelength. It's been really exciting for me to see, but aside from the amazing community that you're building, not only through these events, but also through your presence on TikTok, which is really even incredible to see, would have been some of the videos or, I guess, pieces of content that I've really resonated with people. How do you feel like you've been utilizing that platform to really draw an audience in and get people to come to your events? It's a great question. So I started up TikTok just making mocktail videos, and they got 100 views, like, max 100 views. And I was talking to our mutual friend, Garrett, who Garrett from Goldies. He has a great, great non-alcoholic drink brand as well. And he was like, you got to tell your story. You got to be vulnerable and actually tell people who you are. People don't want to just follow you for your mocktails. They want to see who is this person behind this brand. And so I started getting more vulnerable and being like, look, this is how I'm building this. These are the friends and family tastings that I'm trying. These are the drinks that don't work. This is me really upset because I'm feeling like a failure. These are the things that people really go through trying to build something new. And those are the videos that started to really pop off and get a lot of engagement. And also really started to build the community. And that's when people started to reach out to me and be like, hey, I love what you're doing. How do I get involved? So yeah, I think just being vulnerable on social media, which is not always easy. I remember in July-- yeah, I think it was in July-- I had hosted an event at Spirit It Away. So shout out Douglas again, tasting with Philia. Shout out Philia, which is a great non-alcohol product. And that was really cool to get to do a live interview and tasting. And it was so awesome to have you there. Because I know you got to create a video and that performed really well on your platform too. So I think it is like proving a concept. People are craving this in-person interaction or like a community where people can come together and not drink. But I want to hone in a little bit more on this point around being vulnerable on social media. I know we've talked a lot offline about dealing with criticism, dealing with negative comments. And it can be really challenging. So how do you try to keep a level head throughout all of the noise that can occur around you? It's really hard, I know, because we're personal friends. So you know. And anyone that's close to me in my life has seen it over the last month. But I am very-- I feel like naturally very private. I didn't even have social media before this. And anyone that's like my friend will laugh because I've deleted social media like 15 times my life. I'll download it and be like, here's a picture of me and my friends. And then I'll get anxious and delete it. Like I really hate social media. I know that in order to have people show up to my events and build this community, it's something that I have to do. So it's kind of like a sacrifice I'm willing to make. But I don't like getting told that I'm stupid and dumb. Every day in my life, that's not something that I would naturally want to expose myself to. And in the real world, that doesn't happen. People don't really walk down the street and be like, you're a stupid viewer. But-- I would hope not. They have no problem saying that to you on social media. So I am a sensitive person. So to keep with vulnerability, it's not easy to take the hate. But I have leaned on my friends and my boyfriend and people that know me. And they're like, OK, but you're not stupid. So that's the fact. You know who you are. And this person is just projecting whatever they're going through, which makes me sad for that person. Because I just could never-- it could never be me. I could never just go on social media and see somebody trying to build something and be like, you're stupid. That just doesn't make sense to me. But-- Yeah. I wonder what the motivation is behind those negative comments. I think-- and I actually posted a tick talk about this, just out of curiosity asking, why do we think that people are so triggered by people not drinking? And alcohol, I think, is a particularly sensitive topic for people. And they get very defensive over their own alcohol relationship. And so when they see somebody that has a different relationship with alcohol and who's very open about talking about it, I think they feel like that person is coming for them or judging them, or they feel like I'm saying the alcohol is bad or wrong, or you're an alcoholic, which is nothing that I'm saying. But I think that it can-- maybe if you're insecure about your own relationship with alcohol, you can take it that way. So I think that's where a lot of the comments come where it's like, oh, you're boring. Which is not true. I can attest to that. Yeah, I mean, it's definitely really difficult to take such targeted criticism. And I think the strategy that you mentioned, what I'm hearing, is learning to have more positive self-talk is super important. Because our minds are so powerful. And the way that you think about yourself and the beliefs that you bring into your head will directly impact your environment and really like what comes into reality. So if you keep thinking to yourself negative thoughts, it's going to create a reality that you're probably not going to want to be it around in because you're going to bring that into existence. So I think it really takes a concerted effort to tell yourself, no, like I'm not dumb. Like there's a bigger goal around this. But how do you make yourself believe it? Because I think that's actually one of the hardest parts. Like speaking from my own experience, thankfully I haven't gotten like a lot of hate on TikTok because I'm nowhere near as big as you are on TikTok. But I oftentimes I think can get in my own head because I'm like, am I doing this the right way? Like is there a right way to do this? Am I on the right path? And I think is both like solo founders because we're both really, so one woman show on both our ends. And it can be really easy to kind of get into that pigeonhole perspective. So for you, like how, how have you engaged in more positive self-talk, but then also done it in a way to like make yourself believe it? Yeah, it's a really great question. And I think it's a daily struggle, honestly. I think one thing that I've been talking a lot to my therapist about is like you, you're not affected by the comments or criticisms that you don't believe. Like if someone was to say like Elizabeth, you are, I don't even know, short or something, not that that's a criticism at it. But like if someone was to say something that was objectively not true, I'd be like, well, you're not like, okay, you're just not bothered. Yeah, I know you're literally confused. But when someone calls me dumb and I'm sobbing about it, well then hey, maybe that's a message to me that that actually hit a chord and then I might actually believe that about myself. So what I've been trying to do is look at these comments and the ones that affect me figure out, okay, maybe this isn't about this person, but maybe this is bringing up a belief that I have about myself and then we can address that. So then I can actually take that to my therapist or whatever other mechanism as I have for self improvement. And it becomes an actionable problem rather than I'm just going to take hate. It's like, okay, no, this is something that I can actually control. Because as soon as I no longer believe that I'm done and we're stupid, someone calling me dumb or stupid, it's going to have the same reaction of like, okay, you're just not correct. So that's what I'm trying to work on. And I think strategies for that and all credit to my therapist. But she has this exercise where you write down the limiting belief you have about yourself. So let's say it's, I'm dumb. And then you think about actual factual evidence that disproves that belief. So you come up with a whole list of things that prove that you're not done. Like if I was dumb, could I create this company? Could I do the things that I've achieved? And I don't think so. So it's cool to have those things that remind you that what you believe about yourself is not always true. It's so important to have like a physical reminder too. Something that I've tried to do is write down like on my notes app or in a notebook, a list of just the small and big wins that I feel like I've achieved over the past two years with even launching the podcast. And it's so helpful to revisit that when I'm thinking thoughts that aren't super productive, honestly. Like it's really helpful to go back and say, wait, but I did this and I got this many people to come to an event when I'm feeling a bit down about myself. And I think for me, and maybe I don't know if this is a similar experience for you, but a lot of the negative thoughts that I tend to have around being in this more entrepreneurial space is the minute my mindset shifts to the comparison mindset. I don't know if that's something that you can relate to. I'm sure it is because I think honestly it's human nature. Like everyone is, you know, victim to comparing themselves to others, but it's the minute that I stack up my metrics or my accomplishments against someone else's who is more successful than me. That's when it starts to get to be really stressful. And that's when I have to whip out the little book of like, okay, I did all this, but have you encountered those feelings of feeling bad about yourself or what you're trying to build when you compare yourself to others? Oh my gosh, every day, every day. I mean, I think the quote, like comparison is the thief of joy could not be more spot on. Like it's just a losing game because even if we were sitting here, billionaires, like unless you are the most billionaire of the billionaires, you still have someone to compare yourself. And then even if you were that, there's other pillars of your life that maybe not as fulfilling as other people's. I have really been trying to be intentional about not comparing myself to other people, but instead comparing myself to myself a year ago, two years ago. And when I do that, I'm pretty, pretty badass. So it's like, and I just want to spend as much of my life in feeling good as I possibly can. And as soon as you compare, that's just gone. Like you just feel awful. And I just don't want that. So I just have been so careful about, you know, am I a better person than I was yesterday? Is absence approved more successful than it was yesterday? And going off of that? Yeah, like small steps too. And I really like that point about just comparing yourself to yourself because it takes away all the external noise and distractions and stress honestly. And I think it also speaks of this idea that it really is just about your own path. Like you're meant to kind of move through every motion that you do. And I think once you can adopt that mindset, whether it be like if you're in an entrepreneurial pursuit and you want to start something or you just graduated school and you're like starting your first job or you're trying to progress through your job, if you can turn the conversation inward, I think that's super important. Like to your point around just looking back at yourself a year ago and thinking, am I more successful now or am I happier now? Half of that point on happiness and mental health, which is largely what we're discussing, how do you find the small moments in life that bring you joy? I mean, it's a great question. I think one thing that I really learned from October was like succeeding will not bring you joy unless you are prioritizing your mental health. So and it was because I was not prioritizing anything that simply brought me joy. Like I was just doing things that were productive or I was viewing as like the metrics or whatever. And so this month I've been really intentional about like yoga every day. That really brings me a lot of joy. Seeing my friends not to like talk about work but to just hang out. Like I just want to hear about like Stella's life and like just detach from all of it because I feel like if you don't, it's really easy to get in a negative head space. Totally. And then it also feels like it's becoming your like absolute identity. Like if all you're doing is talking about like one specific thing. Yeah. And like I'm obsessed with Mark Taylor. It's like like when did that happen? I don't know. Like June. Like literally and then it's like, yeah, I mean it's important to you. Like I also try to do that as well. Like not have to make everything about endorphins. It's becoming my buzzword. Even though that's obviously the name of the show. Yeah. I think that's super important. And in a place like New York too, that's just so busy and hectic and stressful. What are some strategies that you've taken over the past few years because I know you've been in New York for some time now? How have you tried to find a bit of calmness amidst the chaos that is New York City? Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean I think one is my community. Like my people are my people and that feels like very safe and like home to me is like my chosen family in New York. And so like having a dinner party with my friends or you know anything like that is really where I find that calm because it makes the New York like loneliness not feel so lonely. And then yeah, yoga is super important. Meditation is super important. Like all the things you know that we preach are very actually important to do. And then also I just think like trying not to lose those like rose colored glasses or like hard eyes around New York. Like I spent my entire like dreaming of living here and like it's pretty crazy to have made it. Like like 16 year old me can't believe that this is my life. And so I think when I start to complain about how crazy New York is or how expensive New York is or anything like that, it's like no this is what you wanted. So like be happy that you're here and then I think I can step out of my apartment and be much more positive and happy about the craziness and the hustle and the city and all of that because that's what I wanted it. We made it. So yeah, I mean that's like a point I resonate with the expense of this. That can definitely get to you. But it's also really cool to have like some sort of reflective exercise. Be like every so often every few months like to sit down and think about how your younger self would feel about your present self. And I think that's actually just came to mind. I think that's a really creative strategy to focus the conversation less on like success and seeking happiness and success from like outward things but bringing it back more inwards because it's in positive psychology which really talks about like the pursuit of happiness and positive well-being. There's so many different theories around like what makes people happy. And when you're so like focused on a certain outcome or a goal or a really ambitious person as many positives as that brings to someone's personality and their being, I think there's also a lot of detriment that come with with that when you're super ambitious because it's easy to get hung up on like chasing happiness outside of yourself. Like how can you try to bring that more within you? - Yeah, it's a really good question, I think really hard. I think our guy Gary Vee, who we both shout out Gary Vee. But he says to never look at the metrics, like the Instagram followers or things, and his whole thing is social media and he's like don't look at, just keep making content. Like just keep doing the input and then the output will follow, which I think is a lot easier said than done. But what I've been really trying to do is instead of set goals based on output, based on Instagram followers or ticket sales or any of these things that like, really I can't control, is rather to make the goal the input. So my goal is to post X amount of times on social media. My goal is to throw as many events. If no one shows up, at least I threw the event. And that really, it's just much more empowering. It's like, okay, well I know I can control that. And you can't fail that way, which is pretty cool too. So it's like, well, five zero Instagram followers, at least I'm feeling like, you know. - Time to pivot into motivational speaking Elizabeth. That's the next, that's the next pursuit for you. - Yes, someday, I guess I am looking at this camera. - You're natural. - Earlier I know that you talked a little bit about some more upcoming goals with absence of proof. But moving into the new year, do you see yourself continuing to put on more events? More like community building types of activities? - Absolutely. I think one thing that's been super awesome about the social media community is how many people know about absence of proof that are not based in New York. And how many people are like, come to LA, come to Florida, come to, you know, wherever. So I'm like, okay. So without giving away too much, my goal is to bring the community as many places as I can. Again, one woman's show over here, but hopefully that will not always be the case. And yeah, and then I think also like, you know, community is super important, but I would also love to have something that maybe brings the community together in a better way, or could even connect people across cities. So I don't know what that looks like yet, but my goal is to take what I've learned in New York and hopefully expand that to their places. - Yeah, it's the experimentation phase. - It really is, like, I don't know what I'm doing. - It's excited to lean into it. And I have to give you so much credit because you do know what you're doing clearly. I think just even that comment, like it goes back to what we were just talking about around like self-doubt and getting in your head about certain things. So even if you're doing the work to reframe yourself talk, like of course it's natural to feel self-doubt or insecure about what you're trying to pursue or the outcome of it, but I really love your comment around like really being intentional about the input and giving it your all, like giving it your best because when you measure that, there's no way you can fail. If you know that you really put everything and you're all into that. I also know that you have a full time job. So how do you balance the two? - It's a good question. I wish I had a good answer. Besides just working 24/7 and not sleeping. That's not like the mental health thing. I think I have looked at this chapter as working chapter of my life or maybe not working, maybe becoming more curious about what I wanna do in the long term. I've always wanted to own my own business and I've always had a lot of fear around doing that and a lot of self-doubt. And I feel like I'm finally to place in my life where I've gone to handle around those things. I mean, they're still always present, but I'm now in a place where I can look at those and I can see them and I say, okay, you can stay, but I'm gonna do this thing anyway. And so the reality is we live in one of the most expensive cities in the world. As many people on TikTok say that I'm a trust fund baby, unfortunately. I am not a trust fund baby. (laughing) I do pay my own rent and so I do, and I'm super grateful for my day job. Like I really like my day job. I have amazing coworkers. Like this is no hate to anything that I do, but the reality is you have to pay your rent, you know? And so right now absence of proof does not bring in the type of money that I would need to sustain and that's okay. And again, we're in the like learning phase of like, is absence something that I want to grow as a bigger business or as something I wanted to keep as experimental and fun and all of those things. So in the short term right now, I'm just knowing that I'm working a lot and being okay with that and trying to view it as I don't have to work, but I get to work because we are going into incredibly uncertain economic times and a lot of people don't have the privilege of a day job. And so when I find myself complaining about how much I'm working, like yes that's valid, like my feelings are valid, et cetera, but like I'm incredibly lucky to live in the city and to be able to pay my bills. So yeah, it's hard. - And puts into perspective too. I mean, some advice that I've been given is that you shouldn't leave your day job unless your side hustle can support you or beyond. And so I think really like the founder's story is, it's often the narrative is that person is also working a day job and pursuing something on the side. So it's not uncommon essentially. And it does have its challenges for sure, but it's also great that what your full time day job is is something that you do enjoy. And that's granted you a lot of opportunities. And I think there's also a lot of synergies between perhaps like what you do outside of absence of proof and what you're building with absence of proof. And for my own personal experience, I feel similarly with my day job, how it's afforded me a lot of opportunities to grow the podcast. And then what I've learned with podcasts is also helped me do well in my day to day. So I think also viewing those two things as synergistic rather than like completely separate parts of your life or things that are competing for your time. If you can find a way to bring the two together in harmony, I think is also the sweet spot. But I completely resonate with needing to pay your bills. So of course, hold on to my day pursuits because sometimes there's things you gotta do. You gotta do. Absolutely. And I think always having like you're keeping your options open too. Like I love what I'm building with absence of proof. But I don't know if it's going to be what I end up building or if I'm going to start a different company or you know, there's so much unknown. And I hate to be a GaryVee big fan. He basically gives me all my life advice. But he says, the bigger at the ambition, the slower you should go, which I really like. Because I think we get in this culture of I need to be successful now. I need to grow and sell and exit now. I need to, you know, all these things and we're fed this like Forbes 30 under 30, which is amazing for all those people. But the story that like if you're not successful by 25, you're done, which is so insane and so not how the actual world is. And so even with absence, like every part of me is like, go full time, like give it your all, put all your money, all your savings into this. And I have to slow myself down and be like, OK, maybe someday. But right now, you're building something consistent. You're learning from every event. And it's better to do that than just go all in and not have the opportunity to learn in a slow controlled environment. Yeah. So now that's great advice. And it's funny to me because I didn't really know GaryVee was this like big motivational speaker until you started sending me his content. My first introduction to him was when I was trying to learn about NFTs last summer, like unsuccessfully honestly. Because again, like with that in particular, like you really need to devote your time and energy to like learning about the whole crypto space and NFTs. But I saw GaryVee is like the NFT guy. Little did I know he could spit out all these great pieces of advice and facts on bettering yourself. And it's just such a thrill to get to see everything that you're building, be a part of the community. I'm so happy that the world has brought us together. And not only do I consider you such a great personal friend, but it's a source of inspiration and admiration for everything that you're doing. I really do think that shines through in this interview. So I'm really looking forward to everything that you're going to continue to build and grow. But before I let you go, my signature question for you, something that I ask every guest that comes onto the podcast, what is something that brings you a bit of endorphins every day? I think the biggest thing that brings me endorphins is building things and watching things that I have built grow. And that's just like the biggest joy ever. Simple and sweet. I was practicing. I was like, how do I sum this up into the awesome ending of Stella's podcast? But no, I mean, it's been an absolute honor to be here. I am equally an admiration of you. You know that. So thank you for having me, seriously. And yeah, I'm excited for all this to come for both of us. Stay tuned, everyone. And if my listeners want to follow along with what you're building and what you're growing, where can they follow your social media, your profiles? Where can they find you online? Yes. Well, I have been told that an email list is important. So I now have that. If you go to absenceprev.com, you can sign up for my email list there or just follow on Instagram. everybody else does absence of proof, and then absence of proof on TikTok, if you want the unhinged content. - Amazing, I'll link all of that in the bio as well. And with that, thank you, again Elizabeth, it was such a pleasure having you as a guest. - Thanks, Stella. (upbeat music) - Thanks for listening to this episode of Everyday Endorphins. If you liked what you heard, make sure to like, rate, and review this podcast on whichever platform you prefer. You can also follow along the Everyday Endorphins Instagram account to stay up to date with episodes, future events, and all things related to mental health, well-being, and happiness. Don't forget to keep spreading endorphins and find things in life that bring you joy every day. Until next time. (upbeat music)