Ep. 902: The Pros, Cons, and Complications of Data Centers

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People are always writing in, asking about why don't we cover this more? We should do it. Part of the problem is I was trying to find the perfect person to do it. So I just want someone that can look at this, at the data center debate from an informed perspective, from an even perspective, someone that's not trying to drive a particular narrative or that's in the pocket of a certain set of interests. Like someone to take a journal, a holistic look at what is going on with data centers. And she's here, Anne Davis Vaughn. Anne was a longtime Wall Street Journal energy and finance reporter. Then she became an investment analyst, which is basically where you do investigative reporting on companies. That's right. I was an investigative reporter for portfolio managers. Got it. So if they wanted to make an investment, you'd go dig up the dirt or the good stuff. You'd dig up the best version of the truth you can find. Best version of the truth you can find. And now, Anne, Anne has re-entered journalism and is writing a book, which likely will be called Gigawatt. And it is about the AI industrial boom, how it is reshaping the energy industry, the industrial landscape, and the American heartland. She currently writes, this is where I found Anne. She currently writes a column for the information. So it's information.com The information.com? The information.com. Friends would send me your columns. And she writes a column on AI infrastructure for the information.com. That's a publication based out of Silicon Valley. And what I liked about it, about your writing when I would read it, is it was very refreshing to hear someone looking at the issue that I felt hadn't already arrived at all the answers. I was just asking questions and also taking, as we're going to get into, taking a lot of measurements, measurements of water, measurements of energy, measurements of footprint, and putting those measurements sort of into context and comparing them to things that people might understand. So rather than hearing about some kind of wattage, comparing that to other industrial applications, other things that we're all familiar with, so you start to form a relative picture. So thank you for coming on. And thank you for sharing a bunch of your reporting, especially because you're doing this before your book comes out, which is good of you. Yeah, well, thank you. I'm excited to be here. I'm excited about your podcast and having come from the Blue Ridge Mountains and love the outdoors. It's a big part of sorting through what's happening today. Got it, great. Can you start out by, this is kind of a dumb question, but I want to do it. Can you start out by telling people in 2026, when they see data center in a headline in the newspaper, okay, what exactly are they talking about? It's a dumb question to say, what is a data center today? Well, I'll tell you what it is not. It is not clouds in the sky. The data center is referred to as a cloud. It's like the, I think it's one of the best marketing decisions tech has ever made for itself. It's to call it a cloud. It's to call data centers a cloud. Yeah, yeah. These are- Like it's in the cloud. It's in the cloud. And this cloud is really an industrial complex. And so it's an industrial scale facility that kind of pre-AI, when we just thought of it as the cloud, that holds our entire digital lives. And that means everything that, you know, we waste our time on and everything that is vital to, to our society. So, you know, how you save your pictures, how you stream your movies, how you listen to your podcasts, how you get money out of the ATM, you know, how your payroll gets paid, how, you know, life-saving machines stay on and scan your body and track data. It's all that. And the, you know, cloud data centers have been a pretty big part of the digital landscape. Since, you know, kind of the mid 2000s. A lot of companies used to have basically their own data rooms, computer rooms, and they'd have servers that were in a closet. And eventually some of those got bigger. And of course, since, you know, for decades, we've had government supercomputers that were far bigger than that. But this idea of a data center that started to grow commercially came with the rise of the internet. And so I think that these buildings, you know, would serve a variety of different customers. And the notion of these big tech software companies becoming cloud giants really meant that Google, Microsoft, Amazon, they began to build buildings with rows, hallways of chips and servers and all the equipment that keeps them at this Goldilocks, you know, environment. And so I think that, you know, that's a really big part of what's going on. And I think that, you know, I think that's a really big part of what's going on in the digital world right now. And I think that's a really big part of what's going on in the digital world right now. - What does low latency mean? - Low latency means quick. Like, you know, when you remember the days when you would try to watch a video and it would say buffering, buffering. - Sure, yeah, yeah, yeah. - Yeah, that's low latency. And so you need instantaneous data for something life-saving, like, you know, an emergency response system. Traders want instantaneous data. We get upset if we can't, you know, if a text doesn't come through right away. There are certain businesses that really are mission critical, and that need to be near a city. So a lot of data centers got built in smaller fashion before the AI age, and especially Northern Virginia, near Washington, Washington, D.C., and then some big cities like Dallas, Chicago, Phoenix, out on the West Coast and both the Silicon Valley area and then up in the Pacific Northwest near Seattle. Was it really that proximity in those days, which is just like yesterday, that proximity to user groups was important, like physical proximity to big populations of people? Yes, because there's a limit to how quickly data, you know, will travel on fiber. And we're talking, you know, just nanoseconds. We're not talking, you know, we're really unwilling to wait for a few seconds for something to come through. So they were built under that, you know, premise that giant amounts of fiber got built in the dot-com era. There was a whole bunch. Most of it left, you know, didn't get used. And then we kind of built into that in the 2000s and in the 2010s. And when COVID happened, people started using online digital resources like crazy and even more continued to be built. And so then when ChatGPT and AI as a new paradigm kind of really came on the scene around 2022, there. began. to be the conception of a whole other kind of scale of data center. So AI data centers are bigger, more power-hungry, more resource-hungry, really because AI models operate on a scaling phenomenon. And so the idea is that it's not just a building with a whole bunch of different companies siloed computing taking place. But instead, it is one big. one big campus where all the chips are connected to all the other chips, and they're all talking to each other, and it's like one big brain. And the more powerful models that have been trained have operated on this concept. And so we're building even bigger ones now, and they operate altogether big. That means bigger footprint for these data centers, more industrial equipment to bring them the electricity and to cool them. And that's why they are basically factories. And all the time that we've been like, well, let me re-approach that. Maybe you can correct me on the timeline, but at what point, was it a year ago? Was it 18 months ago? At what point was it that all of a sudden this debate about data centers and the environmental impact of data centers exploded? Yeah. So you probably have a different view of it because you follow this and report on it, but try to like, in your mind. Think of just a normal, concerned citizen who reads a few newspapers in the morning. Like, help me remember, when was it that all of a sudden it was just like, the issue? It was the issue around the end of 2025 and early 2026. Okay. So it was recent. Yeah. Because what struck me is, where was the argument about data centers prior to that? Was there one? Yes, there was. There was. And if you go back, you will find some pushback from a few years ago. I think that the scale just had not hit people. And so this AI boom has gone through several stages. And at first, it was just like, what is this AI thing? What is ChatGPT? It's going to change everything. And then there was this stage, when I was actually still working as an investment analyst, where everyone was saying, how much power are we going to need? And where is it going to go? And, you know, the financial and energy and tech types were mobilizing. And everyone was saying, can we really use this much power? Then there was, like, maybe in the fall of last year, an absolute panic over whether AI was a bubble. And whether we're spending too much. Because at that stage, everyone was really focused on how much the tech guys were going to be spending. And, you know, every quarter. And how they had gone from just being so cash-rich to spending, you know, a great deal of their cash flow. And so, all during that time, the, you know, wildcatters that were trying to put AI together and find places to put it, were going to communities and starting to make plans for data centers. And individual communities were having meetings. And saying, what do we think about this? But the populace in general is not super engaged on, you know, their local community level. There's, we've kind of turned polarized and less local news to consume anyway in the digital age, sadly. And, you know, people have, you know, whatever they're concerned about on the national level. And all of a sudden, these campuses. These campuses started to get constructed. And people started to say, wait a minute. Like, I didn't know this was happening. And, well, you know, some of this may have been done just like any kind of industrial real estate project might have been in the past. Where people go to the local zoning authorities. They say, hey, we're with this company. We want to buy this land. Can we put this application in? You know, normally the public is not watching every move on that front. Yeah. But all of a sudden, there was this collective realization that there had been a kind of rush out into the middle of the country. Because these data centers were on a totally different scale than the cloud data centers. And we're going to need to go places where there was enough land or where there was enough power. Where there was some headroom in, you know, whether it was water, the grid. But that is, it kind of started to reach a fever pitch. I would say I noticed it on a trip to Wisconsin in early February, where the backlash had grown just exponentially. Yeah, yeah. I want to do a thing where you give me, you can pick, or you can do neither, or we can play a game to figure out who does it. Like, I want to do the positives just before we get into some of the details. I want to do the positives and negatives. You can take both of them. I can take both. You can take one. You can do both. You can sell me on the hysterical view. I don't want to load it too much. You can sell me on, like, why this is upsetting to people. And you can sell me on why it's exciting to some. Right? Or we can split the job up. It's up to you. Well, okay. So the worries are that data centers are going to destroy our environment. They're going to, you know, destroy our health. That they'll drain Lake Michigan. They'll, you know. Raise the temperature above the buildings and into our neighborhoods. They'll poison the water supply. They'll spike our power bills. They'll only take subsidies and not give anything back to, you know, local communities. And that it's all happening in secret. So I think that's part of the panic. That's the vibe I get. That's the vibe I get of the panic. Yeah. Yeah. And not to even mention that it's existential to humanity. And it could destroy humanity. Oh, I think that's. Not a small concern either. Yeah. Because that's a certain thing is it'd be in looking at water consumption, energy consumption footprint. There's also just, it's fueled by a general apprehension. And it'd be like, so that it can take my job. Yeah. Right. Yeah. I got to give up all that. I got to give up clean water. I got to give up all this stuff. I got to accept this eyesore into my community so that then this can take my friend's jobs. That's right. And my own. And my future, my children's future jobs. Yeah. And I don't think that the tech industry has done itself any favors by, you know, carrying out a narrative that is, you know, potentially quite exaggerated in that view. But, you know, candidly, we all have a lot to learn as time unfolds. So, yeah, I mean, you ask, like, how do you separate or figure out what is truth and what is crazy? And what is rational to worry about? Yeah. And I guess I would start with what is rational to worry about? It is very rational to worry about, you know, to fear change and uncertainty. And we are facing an incredible turning point. We're in the early days of the AI revolution, and there's incredible fear and uncertainty, and that's rational. And I think it's rational to love your community and to love the character of your community. And, you know, especially if you've, you know, even if there's been some economic decline, you've kind of made peace with that or you kind of love where you're from and you kind of enjoy a little bit of the peace that has come with some of the economic decline in your region and the natural beauty instead making, you know, like coming to grips with it. that looking complete. is-- I think that's very rational. Like, some of the scale of what I'm talking about in rural communities, we are talking about, in the end, a campus that I sometimes think of it as like, you know, five pentagons, like, landing in the field -across from your house. - Yeah. These are huge campuses. Some of them-- You can give it to me in Walmarts. Yeah, like, uh, well, I'll get-- Uh, it's many more than Walmart super campuses. Like, uh, a metacampus in Louisiana is, um, five miles, uh, long and one mile wide. Are you kidding? And so, I've driven the perimeters of these. That'd be a concrete slab, five miles? No, not a concrete-- It's many buildings. So, it's many buildings with-- with land in between. And when they're finished, they will have some grass, and they will have some parking lots, and they will have-- But the footprint of that thing is different. -It's five miles by a mile. - Yeah, that particular campus. It's-- it's the footprint. It's-- It's the footprint of a large municipal airport. Yes, it's not dissimilar from an airport. And so, it is rational to say, "Wait, this scale, um, is-- is truly-- it feels nuts to me." And, um, and-- and, you know, the-- the-- the truth is that the landscape has changed through many years of other industrial revolution, railroads have, you know, criss-crossed and-- and, you know, may-- maybe some thought at the time scarred the landscape, and we got used to those. -We have airports. Highways. -Oh, yeah, someone like today -was proposing the railroad infrastructure. -Highways. as a new concept, you'd never get it done. You'd never get it done today. They're like, "Hey, I got an idea." -That's right. -I'm gonna run, you know, we're gonna run these continuous lines all across the country in eminent domain, everything. Yeah, you'd never get it through. I'm gonna put poles up with wires all over every single-- -in America. -Every street will have -a pole with wires. -Yeah. And people will be like, "No way, you're not doing that." Yeah. So, I mean, I think it's-- it's-- it's rational to, you know, uh, and it's-- it's-- it's understandable, too, that people see, um, technology and these-- they see data centers as the embodiment of how tech has changed our lives. -Yeah. Yeah. -And, you know, for the worse, perhaps. Um, and they-- they sort of see it for the worse, and-- and, of course, tech has also changed our lives for the better. And so, um, I guess I would say, what is-- what is not rational is to not look at, um, and do this with some common sense and-- and put context around it. -So, you know, one piece of context, right? - Yeah. Like, well, look, we now have airports that are these giant pieces of land that we all depend on. Um, the truth is, we do all depend on data centers, um, every single day. Our lives are, you know, as dependent on energy as they are on digital. And now, uh, AI and-- and energy are completely intertwined, and they pull in all kinds of other resources, and we're grappling with that, and-- in real time, in a hurry. The tech industry's in a big hurry, and that's another part of people's unease, -is-- is how fast this is unfolding. -Fast, yeah. The fall hunting season is finally upon us. I love this time of year. Me and my kids got trips coming up for pronghorn, deer, more deer, cow elk. We got all kind of stuff coming up. We're about ready to trade out summer sleeping bags for cold weather down, pack up a food bin and a cooler, and we'll throw in a couple of Mountain Dews for a little reward and boost after those long mountain marches. There's nothing better. It's my favorite time of year to spend time with my family. Born in the foothills of Tennessee, Mountain Dew was made for a damn good time outdoors. The bold taste you know and love has proud American roots dating back to 1948. 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Let's talk about some of the specifics, some of the specific impacts. We start with water? Yeah, sure. What amount of water-- what amount of water are we talking about? I mean, let's look at it-- you know, there's another question I got prior to that because that just kind of sets this whole thing up. When we talk about what's going to happen, what is a comfortable timeline? 10 years, we have no idea, right? So there's sort of like what's proposed right now, what's in process right now. So if I say to you, how much water are data centers going to use, what date are we looking at? Like, what date is it fair to look at? Is it like right now? Is it two years from now? People use 2030 as the sort of guidepost. OK, so when we're talking about-- it's just for people to-- a reminder here, we're in 2026. When we're talking about how much water, how much footprint, we're sort of looking at reasonable projections about four years from now. Is that cool? Yeah. OK, so when I read articles talking about data centers and resistance to data centers and things, one of the big issues that comes up is where is all this water coming from? And that winds up being like relevant-- it's relevant to all Americans because we all rely on abundant, clean water. It's relevant to agriculture, obviously, because food. And then in a sort of niche way, it's very-- relevant to me as a fisherman and an outdoorsman. Like, the fact that our country, as wealthy as it is and as populous as it is, still has this abundance of clean water full of fish relative to other places around the world, that's like of tremendous value. So when I hear of something that might threaten that, I get anxious. How do we look at the water issue here? Yeah, so I think-- a couple of caveats that I'm not a water scientist. And I'm also in the process, as I work on this book, of interrogating this topic from every angle that I can and striving to figure out the best version of the truth so that we can all talk apples to apples. And so I've attempted-- recently did a column on water for the information and have attempted to do that. So I've done that for the book, as well, sort of saying, what-- how much water, you know, does this industry really consume and has that changed? So it has changed, actually. The data centers are getting bigger, but they're getting more water efficient. So let's put kind of water, broadly speaking, in perspective so that this is kind of a rough exercise. There are many resources that folks have like helped me think through this are drawing from okay okay but um so we don't get alarmed by contextless numbers you hear something like um billions of gallons of water being used a year and that sounds astonishingly large sure but in fact big industries including agriculture are using trillions of gallons in here so the other thing you hear is kind of glib is you'll do you'll do a search right you do like a thing on chat gpt and then people be like well there goes a gallon of water yeah yeah but you hear it but you don't really no one knows what that shouldn't say no one most people don't really know what they're saying yeah okay so let's start big and we'll kind of telescope you know out and then go go in a little bit so there's like you know if you maybe you can keep a number in your head of like fresh water consumption in in the us in the like 30 trillion gallons a year range and um well that's what that's what we're using yeah um and you know and and um 30 trillion 30 trillion gallons a year and um single crops in the united states use as much as 3 trillion gallons a year okay so corn or alfalfa like for for livestock um and a third of the corn uh you know harvest is going to ethanol so so this these are just single crops and so agriculture irrigation for agriculture does consume something like um you know the like 70 of our fresh water okay so we're already using a lot of our fresh water for irrigated crops and so corn like three trillion gallons a year you're not an almond lover well no no i eat almond now and then but you know the country's not going to without alfalfa and be able to feed cattle right it's not going to happen yeah we might get along with that for ethanol and livestock feed and other things it's not going to happen but it's like i don't mean to hack on the almond people like i like almond joy as much as the next guy i'm just saying like i don't like almond joy as much as the next guy but i'm just saying like the almond thing seems uh i don't know i don't want to hack on the farmers yeah it just seems like we don't need to pick on them because there's there's plenty of examples of dairy farming dairy farming is is enormously water consumptive and about um an estimated like 93 percent of the water footprint of dairy farming is actually just to feed cows um or you know basically to raise crops but dairy's got to blow dairy's got to blow almonds out of the water that's like a nice not quite a pun but yeah i you know i think it's it's it's way up there i guess it like the statistic that i came to arm with is that a gallon of milk and this is from the u.s dairy industry's like sustainability reports a gallon of milk takes 144 gallons of water to produce really and a pound of cheese takes 164 gallons of water so how come when you take a sip like when i put a little half and half in my coffee no one goes like well there goes three gallons of water i think that we have normalized we love our farms we love our food oh yeah i love farms we you know we like farms fields blowing in the breeze and um yeah no one complains about having a farm field across the road yeah that's a selling point you know and a lot of people will say and i had a farmer say this to me who sold a very large chunk of land to meta you know i hear over and over nobody can eat a data center he's like well these are you know his words not mine but he's like don't tell that to me when you know uh we have seven million acres of um sorry when we're using you know yeah seven million acres in just in illinois or 30 30 million acres of cor of corn that is harvested is going to ethanol so we're not eating ethanol we shouldn't be eating ethanol yeah that's like on the land use front i think that that's a little bit of a i don't know how widespread it is but i would say with people not adjacent to agriculture i would say when you're driving when you're in the in the upper midwest and you're driving through corn monocultures i think that i think that most people most urban people feel that they are in a food production landscape yeah and they don't view it that they're they are in a production they are in a fuel and energy production landscape yeah and it'd be like it's like i don't even want to equate it to an oil field because it's it's soil it could be repurposed for other things right it's not developed it's not under concrete it can be used you could grow different crops there next year if you wanted to but it's it's energy yeah you're looking at energy production so that's some of the ag let's take like lawn irrigation and golf courses okay all lawn irrigation in the united states also equates to about 3 trillion a year and golf courses um use about a half a trillion gallons of water a year um you get into like individual like the the golf course you take all the water used by americans to water their grass or gardens and that and that's three trillion and that golf courses are sucking up a half trillion yeah so like golf courses there's a difference between consumptive water use and water that is used yeah we got returned to its sources yeah we can talk about that just i want to tell listeners yeah we'll get into this because of course the amount of water on earth is a constant so we need to talk about when you say that you're using water what does it mean yeah like just to give one example at our fish shack we pull water out of a creek it runs through our fish shack but goes back into the creek yes i mean so it's like we're just detaining it for a minute and putting it right back where it came from at the same temperature in like measured in quartz but i'm saying it's like so you'd be like are we using water like when i turn the hose on am i using water because that water is flowing right back into where i got it from so we'll get into that a little bit like like when the data center's using water how are they using it yeah why can't they put it back where they found it we'll talk about this a little bit your fish shack let's now zoom into a much higher industrial scale which would be a power plant um is doing something similar to your fish shack it is uh withdrawing a pretty large amount of water from water sources like lakes and rivers but approximately 90 to 90 percent five percent of the water gets returned to its source okay now not always still gets counted as usage though it's counted as usage but not but you know it's kind of not always but it's still counted as usage though it's counted as usage but not but you know it's still counted as usage though it's counted as usage but not but you know it's still counted as usage though it's counted as usage but not but you know it's still counted as usage but not but you know it's still counted as usage though it's counted as usage but not but if you really think of consumption it's not all like you know maybe water is considered if you really think of consumption it's not all like you know maybe water is considered consumed and this is where you want to go to maybe water is considered consumed and this is where you want to go to an expert but like generally speaking consumed and this is where you want to go to an expert but like generally speaking when it evaporates and it doesn't it's It's not directly replenished. That's the number I'm interested in where you've moved it. I don't want to get too in the weeds on this, but like once you evaporate it and put it in the cloud cover, you're moving it to different drainages. You're moving it to different basins, and you're redistributing water rather than you're keeping it in a closed circuit system. That's right. But anyways, keep hitting me with the relative on water. Let's look at the electric sector, though. But it still uses around 45 trillion gallons annually, the power sector, to cool thermal power. So thermal power would be like coal plants, natural gas plants, and nuclear plants, as opposed to like solar or hydroelectric. But only about 5% of that is fully consumed, and it's returned to its source. There are regulations around this, but none of us like to think of warm water going into a pristine ecosystem. So there's regulation around this, and there's ways that it is dealt with. From a fishing perspective, which is how I look at many things in life, a hot water discharge is a blessing and a curse. Because a hot water discharge could be the best fishing place in the world. It could also be what destroys. A body of water. Yeah. By changing the water temperature. So it's like, it's a funny, you know, like many anglers, especially in the Great Lakes area, have like a complicated relationship with hot water discharges, you know? Yeah, I know. Because you go there in February and the fish are like, the fish are just there, right? And you're like, it's kind of like you're cheating. They're there for the hot water discharge. And then at other times of the year, it makes the water too damn warm, you know? Right, yeah. And it changes the fishing conditions and you can't fish at all. Yeah. So people have a, there's like, in my world, there's a, there's a, like, a lot of people that are fishing. A complicated relationship with those things. But yeah, they're putting it back. They're putting it back where they got it from, but it's just a lot hotter. Yeah. Yeah. So the electric sector, this is where you really want to focus when you're thinking about data centers. So members of the data center industry have made significant strides in changing how they do water out of necessity. So AI runs hotter than traditional computing. Okay. It's, it takes. a lot more electricity, and it puts it into much more denser racks of like you know a tightly tightly networked chips and servers and and memory and all this um stuff and so they're they've now learned to do what's called closed loop cooling literally they'll run um a a cooling liquid which you know can include water and glycol in you know over chips and and in these tiny tubes that get into bigger tubes and you know eventually also need to go up to a or out to a big set of equipment that cools that water and then it sends it all back to do it all over again um when today's really advanced ai data centers get built they get filled up with a pretty small amount of water like for example a microsoft facility in wisconsin was filled um i think it's a handful of swimming pools worth of water it's about what a car wash would use in a year oh um , not not too much when you people have forgotten how much water other industrial things you know factories steel mill you know like any any industrial plant uses water right so um chip foundries use a giant amount of water so um on a relative basis the data center guys will sometimes say we're we're hardly using any water but there is a trade-off that they um you know i think would be smart to to just upfront acknowledge because the the closed-loop cooling is using a lot of new advanced equipment um and existing technologies that we've known about that basically are very energy intensive and so that means they draw more power to do that and that means that if they are using the output of a thermal power plant that is up the road that thermal power plant is using a lot of water to you know cool its facilities and make the power and so it we're kind of trading one problem for another yeah yeah they're dropping off on water used to pick but then they need energy to cool the water yeah then they yeah then they need energy and that needs to be cooled at the power plant so the much bigger offenders in um the water for the digital economy are electric power plants and actually chip foundries um are extremely water intensive and they use ultra pure water um and it takes you know a large you know kind of extra amount of water to get it fully pure and to do that and and some of it is consumptive and um so there are some water treatment and um you know technology companies that have done some really interesting studies um you know xylem's done one that i wrote about in my last column just showing uh it's if you kind of if you can visualize like these two layers of giant mountains of water use and and they they are semiconductor plants and power plants and there's kind of a ribbon on the top which is data centers huh so with all those hit a couple of those again like hit me with with uh the water use of agriculture yeah or like the total water use hit me with a couple then tell me in 2030 what are we looking at crops single crops big big crops in the u.s might be three trillion gallons a year of water direct water use of data centers um has been estimated at roughly 18 billion gallons so remember a billion is a thousand less order of magnitude a thousand less than a trillion so three trillion of for a single crop um u.s data center use 18 billion we're talking way way smaller that's 20 percent projection like a quarter of a percent um and so it's just important to kind of keep some of that in perspective because um if even the data center footprint of on-site plus the amount consumed in the electric sector you take how much power they're using you have to haircut it because not all power is thermal power um and you also have to haircut it because it's not just as we said all consumed um and it's still like we're talking one percent of fresh water um even maybe by 2030 um the data centers might be using um in a you know a more consumptive fashion is it safe to say that it's um that a part of the concern is it's like it's it's it's added mortality on water meaning we're we're used to we're comfortable with how much water we're using for energy how much water we're using for agriculture and we've just become numb to it we just we just look at it like it's just like how it comes to it and so when someone comes and says i'm gonna draw yeah blank billion gallons it is an added stressor for sure but but in the context of the um and i know you're not you know and you know i know you're not looking at this from from an apologist's perspective but it's just very interesting to hear from a relative sense of other industries what we're talking about because the impression one would get the impression one would get is that we're talking about a level of water like an unprecedented level of water yeah well then we should also talk about why people are alarmed and um well first i'll tell you something that's really depressing which is about uh it depends on the estimate but like 18 to 30 percent of municipal water system water is getting wasted completely because of leaks leaky pipes old infrastructure water utilities are typically like owned by municipalities they they are um underfunded and they didn't have great technology today it exists to kind of monitor and figure out where leaks are um and so even as we use more water for industrial um purposes for data centers um we're we're leaving so much of it you know like where we can't access it like it's just falling out of our water system yeah so that's tough the other problem is that a lot of digital infrastructure is going to water stressed places and so in individual places it's a bigger incremental stress on the system it's a very big incremental what is the what is the rationale well maybe we should do that one next is the the physical footprint but go out on water we'll talk about physical footprint next yeah so um well you know the um you've seen a lot of chip plants locate in the you know southwest uh in the phoenix area a lot of data centers are there too and um when when i have been traveling the country looking at the ai boom and where the next generation of digital infrastructure is getting built it's getting built in the middle of the country effectively so and some of them are in water stressed areas so we kind of think of the american wetlands as a water stressed area and we kind of think of the american wetlands as a water stressed area so we kind of think of the american wetlands as a water stressed area so we kind of think of the american wetlands as a water stressed area so we kind of think of the american wetlands as a water stressed area so we kind of think of the american wetlands as a water stressed area so we kind of think of the american wetlands as a water stressed area so we kind of think of the think of the american wetlands as a water stressed area so we kind of think of the american west and the sort of more desert water stressed area so we kind of think of the american west and the sort of more desert landscape as water stress so the american west and the sort of more desert landscape as water stress so the colorado river basin yeah um for Colorado river basin yeah um for Colorado river basin yeah um for sure is a is a area of significant water sure is a is a area of significant water sure is a is a area of significant water stress um the ogallala water stress um the ogallala water stress um the ogallala water uh aquifer which goes from south dakota uh aquifer which goes from south dakota uh aquifer which goes from south dakota down to texas yeah basically it's another down to texas yeah basically it's another down to texas yeah basically it's another depleted and depleted and depleted and you know in both cases you know in both cases you know in both cases there have been alarms sounded about there have been alarms sounded about there have been alarms sounded about water before the ai boom and in these water before the ai boom and in these water before the ai boom and in these regions but they're they're um regions but they're they're um regions but they're they're um for a variety of different reasons good for a variety of different reasons good for a variety of different reasons good places to places to places to build ai data center campuses build ai data center campuses build ai data center campuses the fall hunting season is finally upon honest i love this time of year me and my kids got trips coming up for pronghorn deer more deer cow elk we got all kind of stuff coming up we're about ready to trade out summer sleeping bags for cold weather down pack up a food bin and a cooler and we'll throw in a couple mountain dues for a little reward and boost after those long mountain marches there's nothing better it's my favorite time of year to spend time with my family born in the foothills of tennessee mountain dew was made for a damn good time outdoors the bold taste you know and love has proud american roots dating back to 1948 mark your best fall memories with the crisp refreshing citrus kick of mountain dew from 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They like reimagined folding knives. G10 scales with a 3D milled micro texture, titanium hardware, a custom deep carry clip with flathead screws set flush. That's the name of the blade. The wait is over and I've been waiting a long time to get one of these suckers. It's dropping extremely soon, so make sure you sign up for email and SMS to be the first to know. That's mkc.com. At this point, if I carry in my mind from just being a concerned citizen, if I carry in my mind an idea that water consumption is a major implication of AI infrastructure, and then someone tells me that data centers, that people are building data centers and they're tending toward the Colorado Basin, the Aguilala Aquifer, so like the American Great Plains, the Southwest, and I have the water thing in my mind, I'm like, that seems ridiculous. But is it, are they going, are data centers now going, where it makes sense to put a data center, or are they going where they're welcome? Like when they look at, when they look at like, where should we try, right? Is it, they won't put up a fuss, let's go there, water be damned. Or are they like, no, for all these reasons of infrastructure, this is the place to be. Yeah, so water is a factor in where they go. And there are data centers being placed in areas with, with plentiful water, too. I just got- They don't want it either, though, but anyways, go on. Well, you know, water is less, it's less of a footprint than the energy that these facilities- We're going to talk about energy, too. But they're going to different spots. So for example, you know, they're going to the Mississippi River Delta. Okay. And Alabama, sorry, really in Mississippi and Louisiana. Okay. Okay. Why? Like, let's take that one, for instance. Okay, so water availability is a draw to go there, right? And I literally was driving a week and a half ago through Louisiana past, you know, bayous where the tree trunks are basically swimming in water, right? There's water everywhere. Yeah. And, and it's, you know, a farmer said to me that, you know, this water, this aquifer will not, you know, does not have a drain, drain the, the, you know, the water supply risk. Now, that does not mean that water is not precious everywhere, right? And so Texas is getting an enormous number of these new data centers and water scarcity is a big issue in Texas. And, you know, in, like, there's a new study out of the University of Texas that, um, looks at both the direct water use, which, as I've said, is getting better data centers, and the indirect water use from power, which is getting worse, um, in some ways. It depends on what, what we end up putting in as the power source, right? If we don't build coal plants, you know, that's a whole lot better for the water supply. Got it. Um, but the Texas could end up, um, having, you know, right now it's only, data centers are only 0.4% of water. But growing water needs for AI could, um, bump up just in Texas, the water, um, used directly and indirectly from, from AI to as much as 5%. And that would be, you know, that would exceed that of livestock and mining, um, it would still be well short of irrigated farming, but there are places that are water stressed, um, where, you know, it is not trivial, the, the, the buildup of, of what we're trying to do. And, uh, what the tech industry is, is intending. Yeah. And then the other thing in Texas is you have a, you have an exploding human population. Yeah. So when, when, when urban planners are thinking about water consumption into the future, and you're talking about an industry going from 0.4 to 5%, that's like meaningful water. But like, but to, to that question of when, when these entities that build data centers survey the country, why are they picking? Why are they picking it? The very biggest factor is power. So we have an aging power grid. And while we have lost some power users because we have deindustrialized, we have a grid that has not kept up with the progress of the economy. And now needs, both because of extreme weather and just general age, needs a lot of investment. And the power grid just cannot handle gigawatt scale power just anywhere. So what is a gigawatt? A gigawatt is as much power as the whole city of San Francisco or Denver consumes. In how much time? It's a capacity figure. You can also look at energy as a per hour. Oh, yeah, I see. I understand what you're saying. But you need plants capable of producing this much, a gigawatt. So a plant would, you're saying like an AI data center, an AI campus, data center campus, would feasibly use the same amount of power that is being used in Denver? Correct. Or more. There are multiple. And that's like the residents, the businesses, the manufacturing? The whole community. Yeah, the whole community. And as going to this concentrated place, yeah, it's a big landmass, but we're talking a few thousand acres where that much power could be going into a single place. So it's, the scale of it is quite. So selecting areas where there's the possibility of getting and moving that amount of power. Yeah. And that has, it's not like, you know, just because there are power lines going through a property or just because there's a power plant, a nuclear power plant in the vicinity that is available. So then you get to things like power congestion and the ability to pull a large amount of power to a single location. And so it becomes this really complicated matrix of factors that. Are bringing people places. So it's, you know, can the power, are there, are there pockets of power that are accessible? Does the, the community or the state make it easy to build? Is there water? This is not the very first concern though. Is there fiber? Fiber is easier to lay, but, you know, we also had a glut of fiber that was laid in the, you know, in the dot com days. So, you know. There, these are some of the concerns, you know, others are, are, um, land value. Um, and so you will now see data center developments going up. It it's at, in, you know, virtually everywhere. Um, are they, are they actually looking for land? Like when, when you factor all this in, are they, are, are they actually looking for land deals? Like the, the cost of the land matters to them? Yeah. The cost of the land matters. Um, places where. Data centers are quite saturated, um, like Northern Virginia, the, you know, the land values have, have approached, you know, in the millions of per acre and, um, you, you can't really even get a campus that's that big. And so, you know, AI starts with these big training campuses that are big, but eventually, uh, and not too long from now, we are going to hear a lot more about, um, how do you fill in the, um, smaller, but, you know, state of the art data centers to do what is called inference, which is basically the thing that makes money, which is finding the answers to your questions, you know, querying the model and getting back the answer, like, which could be, you know, driving your autonomous car through a town, your, a data center is going to do that for you. Um, it could be, you know, figuring out the cure for, you know, uh, a rare disease, the data center will do that for you. Um, do you have little kids? I have, uh, three older kids, they're teenagers and one's in her twenties. Isn't it weird that you run around yelling at them about leaving the lights on? Yeah. What you should do. you should yell at them about not looking stuff up on the internet yeah you should be like don't look pancake recipes up on the internet you can look it up in a cookbook well i did also leave the lights on in your room it's inconsequential right it's just it's insane there are calculators that show you you asked about like just to go back to the water thing for a minute does a chat gpt query really use a bottle of water yeah i don't even know i hear all the numbers but i don't know what there was a study that said so there are also um data points that um indicate a far smaller amount like a a teaspoon two teaspoons um and i'm i'm not the expert to fully you know parse that out but the one thing that i could i could say with some confidence is that computing is getting more efficient even ai computing every day it's this you know it's this quandary that the the industry you know has they can't find enough power water land they can't you know get enough of their computing into these places so everybody in the whole value chain is like innovating trying to do it with less and so i wouldn't be surprised if you know there are there are big advances and um and and perhaps these newer estimates of what a chat gpt search does use in water are taking into account some of that efficiency um but you're going to have the problem right now is that there are wildly different estimates and plenty of them are scary numbers that have no context around them they they haven't been compared to anything else yeah that's that's the that's the problem you run into before we started record we were having we were talking and you had mentioned um you'd mentioned that there's become like a sort of red state blue state divide on data center placement yeah well except it's now become bipartisan against it's become bipartisan against yeah yeah like like let's talk a little about because just on this on this idea of physical placement right there's a there's a big i think that there's generally like a nimby or not in my backyard component to this where most of the fights you see about data centers from my perspective you may have a different perspective most of the fights you see about data centers are localized meaning one's going in near you one's going near you in wisconsin one's going in near you in michigan one's going in near you in montana and all of a sudden it gets real right and and then you want to talk about what does this mean water uses here what does this mean energy use here what does it mean for just the the visual quality of the landscape here i'm sure there are crusades on a national sense but i'm more familiar with the localized fights right as you've looked at this what have you found about the mentalities or like the the communities that are wanted the communities that don't like what sort of differentiates them is it is it ideology like political ideology what is it you know a friendly town versus an antagonistic town well i i it's a political ideology but i think it's a political ideology because it's a political ideology and i'm not sure if it's a political ideology but i think it's a political ideology because it's a political ideology but i think it's a political ideology because it's a political ideology and i think it's a political ideology and i think it's a political ideology and i think it's a political ideology you know their their ability to imagine what the future could be hold for them um possibly economically um so the northern virginia has a very heavy concentration of data centers today and it takes 25 percent of power use in virginia now goes to data centers and it's mostly concentrated whole state um and people in northern virginia um have have benefited economically from the the tax revenue okay so uh data centers don't employ as many people um especially the older data centers they uh therefore don't bring um a big burden on hospitals schools roads ambulance all that stuff yeah they're like ghost town once they're built they're like ghost towns right the cloud data centers employed you know it could be like 20 people although the bigger ai data centers are going to employ hundreds of people um some of them even say in the four figures but um but the so some of these places have have had um a huge influx of tax revenue they've improved their schools northern virginia fits that um even so it gets to a certain point where people you know are living with with these development right up in their backyard in some cases nice homes and a big data center right behind and um and they're starting to say no more they're starting to worry about backup power doesn't run all the time but it has to test and then if there's a power outage that's going to burn diesel diesel is one of the worst things that you can burn for air pollution um and health and um and so northern virginia is an example of a community that works welcomed data centers you know kind of prospered with them and and is starting to hit a breaking point um oh the mood's starting to sour the mood has started to uh get much tougher and uh there's gonna have to be a conversation even so even in northern virginia the actual land use of data centers um by uh just square footage is uh the campuses themselves are still less than three percent of the land and um loudon county than the most data center populated county um and if you and if you just looked at the buildings it was less than you know one percent of the land and that is the data center capital but that's like but that's it's not nothing because when you think about that that's a weird way to think about landscape that you're saying a percent of a county yeah is under a data center i think i would want to know what percent of the county is under a house because i mean like i don't even know what to make of that you know what i mean it's like it's like the point you made about that you hear these numbers but without context it's hard to understand like i don't think that i don't hear that a percent of a county sits underneath the data center i don't hear that and think that's not much yeah yeah but but i don't know but again i don't know what percent's under schools i don't know what percent is under homes right right but it feels to me like a ton there are you know certainly denser urban environments this becomes a real concern with with you know so many resources and water flow and everything so um the communities that um you know some communities that have welcome data centers are are still experiencing backlash and i think it's because it's just such a profound change um but there are parts of the country that also have economic um synergies i guess you could say with with this um type of an industry they have factories that can and and are um producing the equipment that goes inside they've got a workforce of electrical and mechanical and trades craft workers um who have been underemployed for a long time and um and that starts to kind of work together like there are there are some several areas in the rust belt that um the economic development authorities have you know either recruited data centers or were open to data centers coming the the workforce especially like organized unions are very in favor of it and then um other residents who live in the midst of farmland are not in favor of it yeah and so i think it's really important for us to think about that because i think it's important for us to think about that because i think it's important for us to think about that because i think it's important for us to think about that because i think it's important for us to think about that because i think it's important for us to think about that because i think it's important for us to think about that because i think it's important for us to think about that because i think it's important for us to think about that because i think it's important for us to think about that because i think it's important for us to think about that because i think it's important for us to think about that because i think it's important for us to think about that because i think it's important for us to think about that because i think it's important for us to think about that because i think it's important Yeah. I want to hit you with two ideas. One is you had mentioned that it used to be that like blue states or left-leaning states were antagonistic to data centers. Just speaking very generally, right-leaning states were more welcoming to data centers. But you had said that it is becoming that you're finding resistance in right-leaning states. We always talk about this thing. You've heard of this like horseshoe deal where like the right and left kind of come together. Yeah. The radical right and the radical left come together at the bottom of the horseshoe. That's who's against them. Yeah. It's these two different sides. Yeah. But they like, they almost meet. They almost meet. What is the sort of, what is the right-leaning, what is the emerging right-leaning argument against data centers? Is it like antagonism to bigotry? Is it like antagonism to big tech? It's partially antagonism to big tech. You know, they're spying on my life. They, you know, are driving our young people, you know, the wrong direction. It's partially property rights. I will not have my property, you know, seized for a transmission line that, you know, sends power to, you know, Elon Musk's, you know, or Sam Altman's data center. Yeah. So they. get rich off my land or whatever that's right and it's their way of life I will tell you that when you go to some of those communities, though, people will acknowledge a mixed feeling because some of them have sold their – you don't even have to have sold a big piece of property inside the data center to possibly have your property value, you know, a potential gain. Like, maybe they want to lay down equipment in a yard, and you've got a few acres where you could do that that's nearby, or you decided that you want to run a food truck and, you know, go sell to the workers, or, you know, there's – there are a variety of – maybe your land was used to build worker housing, like a man camp. So, is it generally – are data centers generally raising property levels? I think there's such a land rush right now, and once – and these are such big construction projects that I think in many cases, the properties near these projects do experience, you know, rising property value. Yeah, because picture what we're talking about. They're putting in a municipal wastewater treatment plant. Yeah. Okay. Compare that to, like, a landfill coming to town. Yeah, that's going to be, like, good for some. Yeah. But the people – The people around that are going to be, like, that's going to tank my home value. Right. Right. So, with – in the data center landscape, when it comes to land ownership and land use, in the data center landscape, I could see if they're coming in, they're going to – they need this, you know, whatever, many – you know, they need five square miles, ten square miles of land, that the impact – that the people that own those properties are going to see perhaps a little gold rush. Yeah. But what is the conversation? But what is the conversation about people that are outside of the footprint? Yeah, it's tough. I mean – What are they seeing? They hate the – well, everybody hates traffic. Yeah. Bipartisan rage against the traffic. And that lasts for several years in these big, big projects. Like, people bring that up way before global warming. They bring it up way before – Traffic. You know, traffic. Traffic. Dust. Traffic. You know, so, you know, they were giving free car washes out in Wisconsin near the Port Washington. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. data center. No, really? Maybe people appreciated it. It's a pretty small, you know, it's a small token of something, but you know. Seriously. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Because it was, it's going to be dusty and dirty for a really long time. There had been a lot of people that just did not want to accept that free car wash. My God, man. But you do go to places where this has been underway for at least a year and there are hotels being redone. There are new restaurants that have come in. There are, and you know, like that's the case in Louisiana and that's 30 minutes away from the data center site. So it's a choice. Some revitalization, some investment that's not totally tied to the data center. That's right. And the, you know, like these are, they're criticized as temporary. They're called temporary jobs, but often these projects last for a few years, longer than many people hold jobs. And, and then they're, they, they tend to cluster like, you know, a good, you know, environment where people think they can get business done. They can build more come. So then it turns out that there are a lot of projects and a lot of people kind of moving from one to the other and, and their supervisors and their, you know, will rent apartments, you know, a lot of this is like, it's not just like a femoral activity. It generates general economic activity. Yeah. But you know, that there's, but I've also knocked on the door of houses that like, um, the guy wasn't home, but he was, he was sitting across from a new RV camp that was gonna, and he just had a little ranch house and flat as far as the, I could see in Texas, you know, Abilene and across the street was being placed. A 3000 RV camp, you know, with telephone, not telephone of contractors poles. They were, they were basically putting in water and power poles on an expansive land that was extremely, uh, flat, broad, huge three, imagine how 3000 recreational vehicles. So this is where the workers would come. And so all of a sudden what was an empty field in front of him was almost looked like, you know, a future airport or something. I, well, he wasn't there that day when I knocked on his door, but I'm telling you, he might have had a really different view. And so like there are some growing pains and, um, and some real, real concerns about growth. Me and my kids got trips coming up for pronghorn deer, more deer, cow elk. We got all kinds of stuff coming up. We're about ready to trade out summer sleeping bags for cold weather down, pack up a food bin and a cooler. And we'll throw in a couple of Mountain Dews for a little reward and boost after those long mountain marches. Born in the foothills of Tennessee Mountain Dew was made for a damn good time outdoors. The bold taste, you know, and love has proud American roots dating back to 1948. Get out there and enjoy the outdoors of Mountain Dew and American original tasting great since 48. Moultrie cellular trail cameras help you locate pattern and harvest your target buck. Moultrie helps you get more eyes in the woods. So you don't miss any movement. Moultrie shows you when he moves, where he beds and where to hang your stand. The Edge Force Solar makes setup a breeze with built-in memory. No SD card required. Edge Force Solar comes with a fully integrated solar panel built in, delivering true set and forget power. Now go notch your tag. You guys have heard me talk all about Montana Knife Company for a few years now on the podcast. Hands down, these are my absolute favorite hunting knives. Every blade they make is a high performance durable tool that you can rely on whether you're butchering, hunting, working on the farm, out in the field, doing chores, whatever. And I've got a massive update for you. People have been asking for this forever. MKC finally did it. I've been asking it forever. The wait is over. They're the first folding knife. It's going to be dropping very soon. I'm telling you right now, these things are going to sell out fast. If you aren't ready the moment they go live, you're probably going to miss out. So here's what you need to do. Get over to MKC.com right now. Make sure you sign up for their email and text message notifications so you get the alert the exact second the knife drops. Montana Knife Company, working knives for working people. That's MKC.com. I can't wait to check out one of these folders. On the power front, can you tell me again in Northern Virginia, the power increase for data centers again? Well, it's 25% of power in the state goes to data centers. Okay. And probably growing. So however they're generating electricity, however they're generating power. It's not like, I mean, to a point you probably go and just turn the dial up. Right. And then you're like, oh, I'm going to go and turn the dial up. Right. And make more. Yeah. But I imagine when you're talking about a 25% increase in power, you need to start looking at make like it's more than just cranking up what you got going on. Meaning if you're running hydroelectric, you know, you got turbines one through 13 running and you just kick 14 and 15 and 16 on to make up for the heavy use. There's a point at which that doesn't work anymore. And you need new ways. Yes. Like you need new power, new power production. But I mean, one thing that is, you know, a very hot topic of conversation that would be good for everybody is something called grid utilization, which we all as a, as a society contribute to shared resources. And the power grid is one of those. And, um, we are not utilizing the, the grid that we've already paid. For to the extent that we could be, but technology is only now helping us understand how far up that, you know, level of headroom you could really go safely. And so there's all these new technologies and, and, um, utilities, utilities are starting to be open to it. to say, hey, yes, we do need to build more power, but turns out the grid is only, you know, actually we're only using 30 to 50% of the power that we've already built on a given day because we overbuilt it for those days of peak power demand. And our ability as a human mind to do the simulations, to figure out how far you could push it just didn't go that far. So we just built a lot. We bought a lot of extra. I understand. Like, let's say you're in a, let's say you're in a town, you live in a coastal community. That's a very popular summer destination. Yeah. And when it's awful, you know, I was recently on really hot. Yeah. I was recently on an Island and there's this little community on this Island. And someone told me, you know, people live here year round. So there's 10 residents here around in the summer. There are 400 residents. Okay. So picture a town like that. And then picture the hottest day in the summer when everyone's like, like turning on AC. I see your point where it's capable of that. Yes. But then come here in February when there's, you know, nobody here. So yeah, presumably there's infrastructure. That's not completely utilized. I hadn't really, I never thought of that before. Yeah. And like the utility industry really needed somebody to wake it up, you know, or to push it because they are not incentivized to utilities have this perverse way of getting paid. Um, it's just, it's an incentive that got put in when we created monopoly utilities in the dawn of the electric age and they make more money by spending more money. Um, basically they go to a utility commission and say, uh, we need power for reliability purposes. I want to build a new thing, a new power plant, a new line, a new, and, um, they get a guaranteed rate of return if it is approved, um, to compensate them for, you know, the capital that is needed for that. And so we all pay that. We all pay the cost of what it was to build plus an added rate of return. And sometimes, uh, you could argue that they didn't need to build that brand new thing. They, they should learn how to use what we've got. And so the tech industry is looking at they're in such a hurry and, and they've, they've realized there are certain inefficiencies in the way the system is built and they have the money and the motivation to shake up the system and say, well, hang on. Yes, I, I, you know, I will, if I don't offer to pay my full share on all this new infrastructure, I know I will not have the social license to build and I will be vilified. But at the same time, this, let me fund, you know, these pilot projects or let me add these sensors to lines because we could, we could be determining how far we could push this. And I'm also willing to spend my own money to put batteries, behind the meter and other systems. So when everybody is at that 400 person seaside resort and, and that state is, you know, hurting for electricity, I'd disappear from the grid. So, so much of this is happening. Yeah. That's interesting. People don't see it. Why are you, why are you seeing art? Like not you, like, why do you see articles where it's that they're going to be building like, you know, nuclear plants to power data centers? I mean, it's, it's, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it literally requires all of it. So, so you do expect, like, even though you could find there's efficiencies to be found in energy production and that when we're generating electricity and running it through the grid and it's not being tapped and it just, you know, isn't being stored in batteries, whatever there is going to be in our 2030 outlook, there will need to be like net new generation. And you can ask, like, can, can we stop this from happening? And I, I, I'm not sure that we can. I think money finds a way when it's trying to, you know, get to a goal. So I think we will build quite a bit of additional generation. In what form? Utilizing the grid we have right now is just a faster way to do it. Yeah, I understand. Built. So we are, we are revitalizing old nuclear plants that have, you know, were built 50 years ago. Yeah. We are putting in newer, more efficient forms of power generation, both, you know, solar and batteries, as well as, you know, newer generations of gas plants, which is not necessarily a popular thing, but is going to happen. And there's all kinds of other really interesting things happening in the energy industry. We are applying a set of pioneers in that came from the oil and gas industry in fracking are using those techniques to reimagine geothermal power so that you can, you don't have to go where there are pockets of steam already in the earth. You can go to a location and inject water, create steam, create the steam that spins the turbine, send that water back down in a closed loop. And again, like more water efficient and, and the better you get at it, the more you do it, the lower your costs are. There's a company called Fervo that is kind of the darling of new geothermal. That's incredible. It's like, it's like that. I'm not familiar with that concept, but it's basically you're making a steam engine, but you're using, instead of burning coal to heat the water, you're, you're using the earth's thermal heat. That's exactly right. Really? And you're using techniques and workers who came from, an industry that, you know, either, you know, needs the work or needs to be transitioned into a cleaner form, but have the skills. And so that's been a popular thing and that's, you know, here we are in Montana. Some of the interesting projects on that are near you. There's some work being done in Utah and in Nevada and I, and there's work on this, you know, enhanced geothermal in Texas. There's, there's a lot going on on that. So you have to get the cost down, but they're actually making a lot of money. They're making great progress getting the cost down. Wouldn't it be interesting if it'd be interesting if unexpected upside amid all the downsides and unexpected upside is just like this, this sort of like American ideal that, you know, need driving innovation. Yeah. I mean, that's a big theme in the book that I'm working on. That you're going to get these certain, like you're going to, like for a while you had this certain, these certain types of brains chasing renewables. Right. But now you have like a whole different class and category of humans that are like looking at energy. Right. It'd be, it'd be just like, it'd be kind of an, it'd be like a weird irony if, if that sector, if, if that sector figured out maximizing renewables. That's right. And I think we'll end up. Okay. So not to scare you or your, you know, viewers here, but I think we're, like I said earlier, we're at the beginning of, of this more of an industrial revolution that is, is catalyzed by AI. We think today of energy demand for things like chat bot prompts, but we're going into an era of physical AI where all of this high performance computing is going to be used to. So, you know, we're going to have to, you know, guide cars, guide robots in factories, um, make, uh, you know, whether you like it or not, um, weaponry autonomous, uh, you know, change the way industrial automation makes things so that we possibly can make factories viable again. Um, a lot of that demand and a lot of that, uh, you know, just activity. To make that happen is just barely beginning. And so we may, um, end up just creating more energy, um, generation to feed more applications of AI than we can imagine today. Um, and so that's where it gets a little scary. You think about the ramp up and how, you know, this could change everything. It can bring positives and it can bring negatives. And, um, I think, you know, one of the things that I'm trying to do is, is look at what each side wishes the other would acknowledge about both the promise and the, and the peril of what is facing us. How would you put that? Like, like how would you put those two questions? Um, if you had to answer them, you know, if, if you imagine the brightest minds, like the brightest, most rational minds in the, in the. anti-data center movement and you say that i and they're saying to the and they're saying to the industry i wish you would acknowledge right and on the flip side what is the what is the thing you found yeah well i i would say um what uh the energy industry would say i wish we would all acknowledge is that the modern world runs on energy and you can draw a an upward line of uh you know prosperity and energy that it's pretty much um aligned um the more energy i society consumes, the higher its quality of life. - Okay. - Um. And replacing what we-- Modern life has become really convenient. So you don't even really see the power plant. -You just plug your phone in. - Sure, yeah. Modern life has become so convenient, you don't really understand how we get water. You just turn the faucet on. You just, um, order, you know, stuff from Amazon. You just assume that, you know, steel is coming from somewhere to build your buildings. - Yeah. - You know, it's all industrial. It's, um, and we assume these days that solar is just really cheap, and batteries are just getting better. They are. They-- And they're improving. But they, too, have an environmental and industrial footprint. I mean, you've gotta, um, you know, you've gotta convert raw materials to make the products. - Mm-hmm. - Um, they need to be recycled. They need to be recycled eventually, too. Um, modern life is-- is industrial. And so, I think that that is what, you know, in some ways, the-- the, you know, guys who have been in industry building physical things want everyone to understand. And they want people to understand that, um, what we've done so far has made a dent in-- you know, to make a greener world and planet has improved. Um, you know, we've-- we've improved emissions, um, by introducing green energy. Uh, and we need to do a lot more of it. But we also, um, you know, we have a long way to go to, uh, decarbonize the world. And it's going to take a lot of new technology, new-- new thinking, um, some adaptation. And-- and so, I would say that, you know, on the-- on the energy side, they're saying, like, "The world needs more energy because we prosper with more energy." -Yeah. -More energy, you know, um, is part of just progress of civilization. But we need-- we need lower emissions. We need cleaner water. We need all those things, too. You feel like the industry is asking for lower emissions and cleaner water? I mean, I feel like the industry is largely-- I mean, you know, I mean, let's be frank, man. No, I mean, I'm not just speaking the industry. I mean, the industry has largely given up on the-- the green energy conversation. I mean, like, the-- the dry-- like, the main driving factors, like the administ-- the-- the-- the administration, big tech, I mean, this isn't a concern of theirs anymore. Um. It's so 2023, right? It is so 2023. I think that, uh, it's-- it-- it could come full circle again with some of the innovation that we're seeing. The-- the tech companies are still-- still standing by goals that now look increasingly impossible to meet in terms of net zero by 2030. And look at the direction that they're going. Um. Yeah, whenever you see, like, a-- like, a 2050 or whatever, everyone's like, "Come on." And so then, you know, on the other side, that's where, um, the, you know, advocates for, uh, climate action, for the environment, um, for health are saying, you know, "You need to acknowledge your-- your full life cycle footprint." And, um, communities need to, uh, hear everything transparently that you are-- are coming into a community and-- and going to do. And there's a lot that, um, there's a lot of dialogue that, you know, is kind of hard to have when the two sides are-- are at odds. But, uh, I would say, you know, the environmental, um, groups are saying, "Look, uh, you-- like, don't, um, don't de-emphasize, like, you know, the truth is, you know, if you're backing up your data center with diesel, you know, that creates air pollution for the community. If we're all using shared water and you are adding incremental water demand, um, this is an issue for the community. If you are removing virgin land and-- and wild-- and wild places, you know, um, we ought to have a say on it." And so, it is a natural kind of back and forth that is happening right now. And it is concerning that, you know, there's-- there's a lot of money on the-- the pro-development side. And, um, so, you know, that's where I'm-- I'm trying to kind of watch and see, you know, how is this, uh, happening? There's, uh, you know, maybe it's a-- it's a-- the voice is not as loud, but there are voices within tech companies, um, within-- even guys who-- who have been in the field developing data centers who say, "Look, um, we need to get to a place--" Communities have a lot of leverage now to ask for more. They've now realized, like, "Hey, we're, you know, we're kind of a unicorn here. We've got a-- a big-- pot of, you know, uh, available power or water or what have you. And, um, maybe our community is open to doing business with you, but, you know, we-- we don't want to give, you know, tax incentives that-- like we used to, to-- They realize they might have more leverage than they thought. More leverage, yeah. You know, we used to give these certain breaks to low-margin industrial users that, you know, were-- were trying to afford to build a big car plant. It's such a really different, um, community, you know, of potential, um, users of the land that are coming in now. And not only that, they-- they do have technologies that can actually improve the community. So not only can they give money for a new firehouse or fix the, you know, um, give money for schools, um, they could use, you know, use high-performance computing and, um, help the community figure out, you know, and-- and they are doing this. They're, you know, there are good partnerships happening with-- with water, where they're saying, "If we come in, let-- let us spend tens of millions of dollars in your community to-- to help shore up your leaky water system." -Yeah. -And in exchange, you know, that will help us replenish more water than we're actually using at our data center. Um, so there-- there are things like that. There's a, um, there's a-- a guy who is kind of known as the sort of conscience of the data center industry, -Christian Belotti. - Okay. And I-- I've gotten to know him. He was at Microsoft. He-- he-- he's basically coined some metrics, um, about how efficient a data center could be. - Okay. -And then the, um, the latter part of his career at Microsoft, he did a lot of R&D into community-positive data centers. And he's now independent and working, um, you know, as an advisor in a lot of ways. And, you know, he says that, uh, his industry needs to-- to think about what would make a community want the data center. -Yeah. -He said-- and-- and tells-- and tells his peers, "Until you're willing to live next to that data center, um, then you haven't finished doing your job." And you want it to be, like, "Please, in my backyard." And there are some-- some really interesting, um, ways that he's seen infrastructure get developed, like, um, he-- he often will cite a, um, like, a-- a-- a-- a plant, a water desalination plant, the difference between one that was done in Australia and one that was done in Singapore, and the one that was done, you know, more community-positive way. You know, it's got, like, a roof of grass and has, um, you know, all these different ways that it recycles the water that flows in the community. Um, he's gone to places that, you know, our farming community, and small, simple things, like, we-- we will plant trees that improve the pollination in-- in your community -for your agriculture. -Okay, yeah. Like, this industry is willing to do some of those things if you ask for them, um, but, you know, there's a big difference between a large company that's coming in, trying to get permission, social license to-- to operate, and then there's a lot of other, um, you know, just private developers that are, um, looking for, you know, something to develop fast and flip quick. -And so-- -Yeah. We're about ready to trade out summer sleeping bags for cold weather down, pack up a food bin and a cooler, and we'll throw in a couple mountain dews for a little reward and boost after those long mountain marches. The first step to a successful harvesting is locating your target buck. No SD card required. I'm holding in my hot little hand here the first-ever folding knife from Montana Knife Company. This is a rock-solid clip. It's not the kind of clip that you're going to use a couple times and it bends and get all loose. The blade goes back into the mill after he's done folding. After heat treatment for its most critical surfaces. That's mkc.com. I feel like they've done a poor job. Well, I mean, it's kind of universally accepted. They've done a very poor job of their social management of the issue, for sure. And I think it's because on one hand of pushing the radical amount of change, and then also thinking that they were going to do the data center move in a lot of communities quietly. Yeah. You know, and I understand the approach you're making. Because I think that a lot of times people, there's an expectation that towns, villages, communities, whatever, are going to sort of like bait the hook to bring them in. And if the tide turns enough, it's going to flip that. And rather than saying, oh, we'll give you these tax breaks, we'll give you this land, we'll give you all these incentives, that you'd play that political game enough to the point where it's like, well, why don't you tell me? What you're going to do for me? Right. And maybe that switch will, you know, maybe that switch will happen. And there's so much need that it'll push that negotiating process in a totally different direction. I think that that's happening now. I think that there's, you know, communities are understanding that. The ones, like, ironically, that, you know, got started first. And are probably going to be the most economically viable because they got started first. You know, they kind of came into being in a little earlier place where there is real competition between states for big economic projects. And so I've been traveling all over the country. A lot of places, like, literally for a decade, they were looking for a car manufacturing plant and had assembled a big mega project site. And couldn't, they were like second and third. And fourth in the list. And they lost it again and again and again. And when data centers came along, you know, there's a rival and they know who their rivals are. And they know, you know, maybe it's Wisconsin versus Indiana. Maybe it's Louisiana versus, you know, Mississippi. And so they didn't want to lose it. And they offered incentives, which in retrospect, maybe they needed them at the time. Or they certainly, you know, were intending to bring business, economic prosperity to their state. But there's a lot of things when we look with hindsight later at this era. Like they maybe made some bad deals. Hey, maybe we should have done it this way instead. Are you seeing that when you talk to people? Yeah, I mean, I've talked with mayors who say, boy, I would have asked for even more had I realized how much leverage I have. Yeah. And, um. The, you know, and some things are getting retraded. You know, Microsoft came to a community in Indiana and said, we'd actually like to give you a better financial deal. And it has to do with the way that they've structured taxes. And it gave a lot more money to the school system right away. Okay. And they just came back and said, this is more in keeping with what we're doing now. So it's kind of a give and take. But what we're going up to is data center backlash has gotten worse. I think part of it is, you know, people have facts about their town and fears that it's just really hard to separate the truth from the noise. And sometimes the truth is not good either. And so we're going to have an election cycle where it is. I just wrote a column about this where, you know, I was talking with a political consultant. Who said, you know, if you are running a governor's race, he was speaking of a specific state, but I think it's broader than that. And you're a Republican or a Democrat, you have to be, you can't really be for AI data centers, or you have to be demanding, you know, a new, a new policy on how the power gets done or how, you know, it works. Man, that's funny you mentioned that. For me, for me to get behind, a politician, a state level politician, if their, if their deal was, if their sort of, if their take on it was, I'm going to do everything in my power to bring data centers to our state. Um, in my mind, they're out. Yeah. It doesn't need to be that they're going to do everything in their power to prevent it, but they would have to like articulate a level of skepticism. Um, and the level of negotiating prowess about how this was going to go down. And then if it happens, it's going to be good for us. Like I would, I would have to hear it. So it doesn't surprise me to hear that just across the country, you have to be like, um, I don't know what the best word for it. You have to be like, maybe at least a data center skeptic, you know, because really the thing that like, the thing that makes me pay attention to is, is, and it sounds, it sounds trite. Like, I don't want to look at it. Yeah. I don't want to look at it. You know, when I look out, I like to see things, um, like, like green. How God made it. Wildlife habitat. You know what I mean? Like, I, like, I don't like to, I don't want to look out and see it. And so it would take a lot. And there's a sense that like, there's a sense that even if there's tons of resistance, I'm not, I'm not going to see, I'm not going to see it in my laptop. Yeah. Do you follow me? Like there could be like, it's never gonna be like, I'm going to, I'm never going to try to use Google, you know, drive. Right. And, and realize, ah, there's no, I just didn't know it'll resolve itself. Right. And so the, the resistance part of it, like the resistance, the data center part of it never feels real to me. Like it's going to cost me. Yeah. And so maybe that's a paradigm shift that will need to happen where people start seeing like some way that like, if we resist this all the time, we're going to lose out on a global scale and we're going to lose out on some geopolitical scale, but I think that people would have to see it first because there's plenty of people that hate data centers that are probably organizing their anti-data center activities with cloud computing. And using social media algorithms to elevate. I mean, not probably. Yeah. They definitely are the anti-data center movement is driven by data centers. So, but Americans are comfortable with that kind of Americans are comfortable. With that kind of hypocrisy. They are. And we, we do face, you know, some, some risks, you know, in the, uh, as we think about where the world could go, uh, you know, we're, it has become very difficult to, uh, build infrastructure in this country and we're in desperate need of a better power grid where, uh, depending on which side of the, you know, um, political alley you walk. down, we're in desperate need of more transmission, and we're in desperate need of more natural gas pipelines, both of which are considered, quote, linear infrastructure. You know, they go through people's land. One is buried, so maybe, well, neither one are easy to get through, okay? And so we're at a moment where there's maybe some bipartisan discussion about whether we make that easier. From what I've seen of some polls, like, people do find, like, the threat of China and AI-enabled warfare to still be abstract. And, you know, if they're, like, in a community where it was pastoral, maybe it was pastoral because the factories closed and they, you know, just became cornfields again. But they see their community first and don't want it to change. With so much else. And so the truth is that China has built a grid that's, you know, triple our size. Now, they've been powering manufacturing all this time that we've been doing less manufacturing, right? So their grid is super modern. It is capable of ramping up for whatever it may be, economic, wartime. They've got a grid that is quite capable, and they've got a burgeoning advantage. So, you know, we're not talking cheap toys and furniture. We're talking, you know, batteries, automated factories. We're talking, you know, all the different elements of green energy that, you know, require solar panels, but robotics, all of this advanced manufacturing. Now, there's an effort to bring it back here. Guess what? That uses, you know, more energy and that, you know, will have an additional industrial footprint besides data centers. And they will use data centers to run them. That's, man, that's the thing I always think about is, I used to work on this theory and I never got it worked out good. It was kind of like an environmental nationalism, and it's full of holes. But this environmental nationalism I envisioned would be that, as immature as it might sound, it would be this idea that our play, our play would be to, you know, harness resources, like environmental degradation that other nations are comfortable doing. Yeah. And that we would reap the benefits of that, but leave our stuff clean and pristine. I never got all the details worked out, but I was, I was trying to envision. Haven't we done that? We do do that. We do do that. And I, and it would, we do, we do that to quite a degree and it would be the thing that was brought up all the time when people were, I was talking about your heartburn on your kids. Yeah. To turn the lights off and be like all these things in the U.S. around being efficient with energy and, and clean coal and all this. And you look, but you're like, but there's still India. No, we've out for sure. There's still China. It'd be like, you can do all this stuff. It doesn't matter. Cause there's these things you can't control that are out there. And so in some way we benefit from it. But I think that if you looked and said like, sure, man, maybe in China, they don't have a movement of people that has the freedom and liberty. And autonomy to resist the government, right. To resist industry industry is king. The government is king human, like citizens have no voice. They get steamrolled their stuff all gets turned in to data centers. Right. Um, up until the point when we're like up until the point where we're fighting a war with China. And if we're fighting a war with China, even if it's a proxy war through Taiwan or whatever, we're fighting a war with China. And then we say to ourselves, man. Um, we shouldn't have just let it be that they were doing it all and we weren't doing it because now we're at odds, you know? And it's, it's a, like, I don't know. It's a tricky one. It's a tricky one. When I imagine a, you know, a natural, beautiful landscape with clean air, clean water and like healthy wildlife populations and like, you know, just a place you love to be. And love to look out versus this distant threat that we're, that we're going to get bested by another country in a way that is going to ultimately impede our freedom. And I think that you have to, you know, and, and looking at all this, it's like a, it's a really complicated gamble everybody has to make. Yeah. And you, you ask, well, can, you know, is there a way to do that? Um, and have fewer regrets. And so, you know, I just wrote about this. Uh, you know, I just wrote about this, uh, event I attended, um, where a bunch of Silicon Valley founders had, had rushed to Detroit for, you know, the sole purpose of discussing and, and showing how we can re-industrialize America using their technology, right? Making factories, uh, you know, and, and industrial bases work differently, using technology to make critical, medical processing cleaner, um, and bringing it here. Because if, if we're a society that knows what's going on, we're a society that no longer makes things and just a service economy, and we're dependent on the powers that do make things, um, that doesn't leave us in a very good position. And, um, but what you love and what we all love, wild America and the, the, you know, scenery just outside of this podcast studio is, you know, it is what our country, um, makes is what makes our country so majestic. And so what are some attempts to have industry and, and progress and think more about the natural landscape? And there, there are models that are starting to emerge, um, that, you know, make better, um, choices. There are, uh, AI data centers that are being built in, you know, desert prairie in Texas that will primarily be run. off the grid on solar and batteries with some natural gas power to kind of ferment when it's not sunny or windy, if there's wind. And, um, some of-- you know, it's using some kind of flexible gas power that uses less water. Um, does that mean that that's, you know, the way you can do it everywhere? No. Like, you need-- certain regions allow you to reimagine an industrial factory, like a data center, -which really is an industrial factory. - Yeah. Um, other places, you know, you might have water, but you, um, you know, don't have the power. And maybe people-- and to build it, you know, you can't put a burden on people. What I found so interesting is, like, we've got the richest industry in the world trying to take from the power system. And it's also the case that there are people living in dire conditions. Who can't run their dialysis machine or their asthma machine, and they can't afford their power bill. Like, we're sharing that same, you know-- Yeah. Uh, Mark Zuckerberg is sharing that system with that human being who needs, um, you know, whose very subsistence depends on being able to afford their power bill. So, um, are there some ways that we can all fit ourselves onto the planet together? Like, you would like to hope so. And you know that there will be mistakes along the way. But, um, back to your point about the way the country, um, allows us to be messy and free and, you know, do what we want with our property rights. It is a different way to arrive at the answer than to have it be centrally planned from the Chinese Communist Party. -Yeah. -And so, uh, and it's the way our country is-- This is how it's unfolding. It's where we have opposition, we have proponents. Um, they're both trying to make each other more honest. Uh, hopefully they will. Um, that's America, I guess. Yeah, yeah. Um, if you had to crystal ball it, when you look at this kind of closing question for you, if you have to crystal ball it, when we first started talking, we talked about that 2030 projection. -Yeah. -Right? Um, will opposition, if you crystal balled it, will opposition to data centers block that projection? Or do you think that it's like, it's like, where there's a will, there's a way? Like, it'll happen, it'll happen, and it might move, but, but that's gonna happen? Uh, I think it's gonna happen more in certain regions of the country than others. -Um, so-- -So we'll shift where it happens, -but it will happen. -We'll shift where it happens. Where it's allowed to happen, um, there will be some of these projects built where people weren't, aren't happy with it, and I think that could, uh, make it a less happy outcome. Um, but, uh, so I think, you know, for example, you'll end up seeing more of it come to Texas. You're, you're already seeing that now. Um, not because Texas is rolling over, actually. Texas is an interesting case because they are, uh, they have their own grid, their own grid sheriffs, you know, they've been very strict, saying, "Here's how we want it to happen." Um, and, um, but they've always been more of a pro-development state. -Yeah. -Um, but I think, you know, think it's going to take a few years for the mess and the dust of building to clear. And some, some places may seem like white elephants and others, uh, we may just get used to them and then start to take them for granted. Like we have other aspects of our industrial and digital life already or our energy supply already. And, um, it's, uh, it's up to, you know, all the innovators to try to do it with a better footprint so that we don't regret it. I oftentimes try to explain to my kids the Y2K phenomenon. The panic that wasn't. Meaning there's things that like history's full of this. American history's full of this. There's things like this that come and it's like, so shocking. Yeah. And then later people look and, um, later generations and the previous generations have to explain like, no, you don't understand, man. This was like a, when this happened, this was a big deal. It was a big deal. And they're just like, huh? Right. Like all the, like picture, picture what we were going through in the forties and fifties with, with, with nuclear energy. Yeah. Um, and nuclear armament. Yeah. I'm building the plants in the seventies. My kids will like, they will never understand the amount of soul searching and the amount of public debate. Right. The careers that were won and lost the books that were written about, is this the, is this the right move? Should we go down this path? They would just, it'll just be that that's what it that's how the world is. Yeah. There were debates like that about, you know, coal mining, and, you know, the early oil boom, a lot of it was up in Pennsylvania and it definitely changed the landscape. Um, and, um, to some degree benefited the cities closer to the coast, but it also, you know, created communities that, uh, of laborers and, um, points of pride that led to the steel age. Um, and I mentioned that, that, that it's a NIMBY fight. It almost like accentuates, you know, it almost, it almost makes it why it needs to be a NIMBY fight would be that a citizen says, I accept that it's coming. This is all inevitable. The only thing I can really do here is I can make it that it's not right there. Like that's the only, you know, if I can do that, if I can make it not across the road from my house, I accept the rest and that'll be my fight. Yeah. You know, and it'll probably be how this continues to play out. So like, I get it. You're all going to do it. Don't do it right there. And who will be happier? It's an interesting question. The ones that don't get any of it, the ones that get way too much of it. Um, you know, it's, uh, it comes with trade-offs. Yeah. That was the thing I was going to ask you about, but then I thought it'd just be such wild speculation is I was going to ask you about, do you think that some of the cities, states, whatever, that make it prohibitive to build data centers that in 10 years, 20 years, they're going to, um, look at it like how Portland, when Portland made hard drugs legal. And then a while later they were like, my God, can you believe that was the dumbest thing we've ever done? Right. That, that down the road states, cities will be like, dude, we shouldn't have driven those people away. Now look at all the cities that are going to be like, dude, we shouldn't all the prosperity that these other, these other cities are having. And we like screwed ourselves. And now, you know, I don't know. I think it could be a big contrast, um, between the communities that did and the communities that didn't. Um, and I think you're going to have different people either feeling regret or satisfaction. Like anyone whose job it is to, um, figure out how you're really could use that tax revenue kicks in, you know, there have been tax breaks. Don't get me wrong, but you know, some of those start to, um, uh, you know, expire. And then the property value of these data centers could be enormous. Um, if you listen to tech and what they think they can make off of them, um, then you realize that the tax base of some of these communities could go up hundreds of percent, you know, by multiples. And, um, and that pays for a lot, um, including helping communities that are struggling. Yeah. The human mind doesn't really work that way though. If down the road, you're like, you're closing a school. No, one's going to say like, damn it. We should have let the data center come. People's heads don't work that way. Yeah. Well, uh, and Davis Vaughn, um, thanks for coming on the show. People that want to follow this as it plays out and it's happening so fast. There's so much going on all the time. Um, and does a column at the information.com every two weeks, you have a column every two weeks. It's behind a paywall, but it's worth it. No. Um, I, I, and, and have really enjoyed your reporting on it. I appreciate you coming down. Um, and I posted on LinkedIn, so you can always get the gist of what I'm writing. Oh, perfect. Okay. So, and Davis Vaughn, last name V A U G H N and look forward to V A U G H A N. What did I just say? Yeah. Oh, I spelled it wrong. I'm sorry. It's spelled. It's V A U G H A N. Oh, I'm sorry. Um, V A U G H A N. Is this pronounced Vaughn though? Vaughn. Okay. I didn't screw that up. Great. And looked for the, uh, look for the book, which will hopefully probably be titled gigawatt. And again, it's a book about the AI industrial boom and how it is reshaping the energy industry, the industrial landscape in the American heartland. Thanks for coming on. Thank you so much for having me, Steven. Oh, Nate Mason's back there flagging me. The TRCP deal. Just hang tight a minute. This has nothing to do with AI. Uh, every year we do, we do our TRCP, our TRCP Turkey hunt giveaway, where we raise money for the Theodore Roosevelt conservation partnership. Giannis, we've been doing this many years now. Giannis and I take a, it's a raffle. We take the winner and a guest and we take them on a Turkey hunt. We cover airfare lodging. Last year, we brought in a buddy of mine. Who's a professional chef to cook. We cover all turkey tag, everything. We take you Turkey hunting two days, three nights. Um, we have a great time. We've got a super good spot lined up for next spring. We took our guys there this spring. Everybody got their turkeys the first day. It's a great time. If you want to do it, go to trcp.org. Look for the summer fundraiser. And, and again, all the expenses are covered. So when you buy raffle tickets, every dime of that raffle ticket goes to TRCP and TRCP. TRCP's slogan is guaranteeing Americans quality places to hunt and fish. So, uh, support TRCP enter the raffle for the Turkey hunt giveaway hosted by me and Giannis Putilis, uh, the Latvian Eagle. Thanks everyone. The new dual threat pro SD climber is the ultimate companion for both bow and rifle hunters. 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