EP 9 - The Storyteller: Narcissist's Playbook

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If you're enjoying this independent podcast, I'd really appreciate it. If you could take a few moments to do a review, like, share and subscribe. And if you'd like to see extra content and show your support, head to the Patreon. The link is in the show notes. A trigger warning before we begin, this episode covers the topic of suicide. It's the morning after my return from Macedonia. I'd barely slept. And I ended up listening to the entire interview with Sam in the middle of the night because we hadn't had time to do so during the day. And I needed to edit down the interview in preparation for my call later in the day. So the woman who was abused by Sam Vaktin for seven years could hear the essential parts. We began the day with more filming of Richard and I for the documentary. I hadn't had time to think about the task ahead. I anticipated it would be a huge deal for his victim to hear his almost confessional interview and then the confrontation. But what I hadn't expected was my reaction to seeing her physical response in the video screen. We'd gone back and forth and whether or not we would identify her, which she was happy to do. But it would mean withholding some of her horrific experiences with Sam. So we decided it was more important to hear the full horror story and we protect our identity to shelter children and family. They've already been badly affected by this and going public is a huge step with long-lasting consequences. At the time of the filming, we thought she would be shown. So she's dressed impeccably, make up and here done and she remained remarkably composed at times. But when I let her hear the section during which Sam talks about the impact of a narcissist on their victims and how it's almost impossible to put into words, you could see on her face the shock at him perfectly describing what he did to her. I then let her hear the entire confrontation. - Do you know that you've done wrong to these women? - I'm sorry, but we have agreed not to discuss my private life. And of course, I. - That's a confession. That's a confession. He doesn't want to discuss it. He's confessing what he did. - Explain to me is that you would know that you've done wrong when people are saying "Hey, I don't know. "Hey, I don't know. "I would have known. "I don't know, of course." - So, if we were to look through the documents and photographs of you, that you've had sexual relationships. - We have no personal relationship. - It's not. - It's not your private life, motherfucker. It's not your private life. We all came for your professional help. - At the point where I asked Sam, if he knows what he's done to these women, and if there's anything he'd want to say to them, her composure breaks. She puts her shaking head in her hands and covers her face. As I see the myriad of emotions on the screen in front of me, it breaks me, and an unexpected tsunami of tears follow my cheeks. I can't think of a circumstance in which your victim has witnessed an unwitting confession and then not an denial, just a refusal to say anything. I'm going to let you hear our conversation as I stop the playback, and I apologize in advance for my emotional state. It just hit me like a truck that I was witnessing live time. Vindication of someone who's been gaslit, shamed, humiliated, threatened, and abused for years. - This is the one I gave them the most. - I'm gonna stop there. - You're emotional, and I'm emotional 'cause I didn't expect to react that way. - Much, you know? I was asked a couple of days ago, I was having a podcast with one girl and she asked me, when were you the most happy, the most happy moments in your life? I said, well, when my two kids were born, and I can definitely tell you, that's the third, the happiest day of my life, really, thank you. - I wish I could, okay. - I wish I can hug you too. You know, I can't even imagine what you felt, knowing who he is, knowing what he's doing, and being so firm, being so calm, and being so professional. This is really, I mean, I think your name should be put in the history of journalism forever because the way you're performing your job, it's so, really, thank you, really, really, thank you. And you realize he can fast everything. He couldn't deny anything, you know? He knows exactly that you, that you, oh god. - I've never felt like this before, 'cause I've never been able to experience this, you know? - It's amazing, really. I can't find the right words because it's quite a long time. I don't speak English, you know, on regular basis. And I'm just so, you know, I'm so grateful, this gratitude is so profound. You had the guards to confront him. You had, and to confront him in such a professional way, it's in such a strong way. And he becomes so miserable, so disgusting, the way he is actually, everything crumbles, all his superman coat, all his defenses, everything, because we can never stand the fight with the truth. And it's our to truth what you confronted him with. - Yeah. And, you know, it took every bit of strength for me to, I had to, you know, pretend and compartmentalize to be able to do the interview, but I knew everything he was saying before it was gold, it was dynamite, it was the ammunition to put the nail in the car. - You're my hero, you're my hero. You're so beautiful, you're so fragile, and you're so strong at the same time, you are. - But you are my hero, because you're speaking out, and I know how hard it is to come up against someone who, you know, he has a such a public profile. He is on television shows, he is followers all over the world, believing what he says, and for you to stand up against him, you know, you are the David against the gullithe with your bravery and your stone, and I was just there speaking on your behalf, that was it, you're the brave one. - Thank you, thank you really very much for holding my hand and for really being who you are, really, thank you. - Oh, thank you. - You are, I like to feel that way of it. - I like to feel that way of it. - You are the woman, really, thank you. - Watching you, you know, my career, my subject of who I speak for, they're all dead, they've been killed physically, and to see you a survivor, and that's what you are, your survivor, of one of the worst predators I have ever come across in my long career, and to see you reacting to, and what all we can do right now for justice is for me to see those words to him, and to see you reacting that way. It just means everything, you know? It means everything in your struggle, 'cause you're still here, and you did everything you could to try and kill you. And you're still here, that just means so much, and I want you to stop him from hurting other women. - You know, I was February 2000, 92 was really, really, really tough, and the way he tried was so elaborate. I remember I was having COVID, I was almost dying, you know, remember he called me. Do you want me to describe you in details what will happen to you in ICU and ventilation? I said, "Look, no, please, just don't do that." He would continue to, you know, torture me, in all the possible ways. And when he finally, when he finally, you know, performed his art act of this discard, that was a very close friend of mine who basically helped me to survive, because I remember during his discard phase, he kept repeating, "Hey, Bambi, he called me Bambi." He said, "Hey, Bambi, don't push me away, "there is no another same vacuum to save you." If you want to survive, there is only me, so hold my hand and follow my lead. And I would tell him just to leave me alone too, you know. He would continue to torture me day by day. And then when he performed his other act of discard, I remember there was this very dear person to me, a very good friend of mine. We know each other for 22, even more years. I don't know why I decided to call him. He would be on the phone with me 24/7 helping me, listening to me. And I remember I said, "Look, I don't have the strength to survive this. I have the apartment on the twenty floor. I was thinking one day just to end it all, but the most important thing for me was to calculate the time so that my daughter comes back from school and she doesn't see my body on the ground. And I remember I called him, I said, "Look, that's it. I can't anymore. I can't cope with this." When I look back, when I realize what happened to me, when I realize all this, I simply can't tolerate this anymore. It's way too much for me. I just don't want my daughter to see me. And the most beautiful thing is that myself will never remember me because he was so small. He was only three years old back then. And even that, I don't think would stop me because the trauma he used was so damn profound. I really honestly, I don't know how I survived, and I'm thinking I survived to see women like you who can believe, who can trust, who can help to fight this evil because evil is doomed anyway, it's doomed because what he does is so extremely dark, it's so extremely horrible, it's so extremely cruel, he's extremely cruel man, accidentally cruel man. One of the most cruel person I have ever known, in documentaries, in movies, in books, I mean why he does is so cruel? And remembering me back then, in February, when it you, and listening to you now, I can't even believe it's like a dream, it's surrealistic that we are here now. Thank you very much for your existence, thank you very much for exist. Thank you Mark, thank you Scott, thank you guys for your bravery to expose this horrible, horrible things people like him are doing because it's even difficult to call them people because what he does, it's so inhuman. It was my honor and privilege, honor and privilege of my life to do that for you, and I didn't even know you, to know you now, it's huge and thanks to these guys for trusting me to do it and I just had a very small part to play at the end, you know, the fact that still have mother, it's thanks to people like you because good hearted people, kind people, loving people, they will prevail, because otherwise the world would stop existing long, long ago, thank you, thank you to all of you really guys, you are, you are my heroes. We will talk again very soon, thank you, thank you, I've got to go blow my nose, I've got snorkeling hands, you're amazing and I know that must be so hard to listen to. I could blame my exhaustion and many other things, looking back I'm embarrassed I got so upset, but I later reflected with Mark in my interview with him which took place a week after filming was completed and when we'd had time to decompress, that the impact of our roles as storytellers, witnesses, and having experienced the wrath of narcissists in our own lives, it was a floodgate waiting to burst, being believed is one thing, but vindication is another. Yeah no, I thought I thought it was interesting because yeah how emotionally you were with her, it was almost like it seemed like a release of so much and I think what's profound about this for maybe both you and I is this represents more than just this, like it represents things about our lives and things about things we've been through. And I'll never forget, I just kept on, I was telling our other producer Lynn just how absolutely fascinating and I don't know the right words for when you told she's the first live victim you've ever spoken to, that you've only ever dealt with victims that are dead, I was stunned at that. So yeah I kept on thinking like this is not just about you but for me as well, this is bigger than it's sort of a metaphor for so many things in our life, you know. You're absolutely right and I was completely taken by surprise and I could not stop it. I think it's a bit unprofessional for me to cry although I'm human and I have cried when the guilty verdict came through in that case I was so attached to and there's been a few other moments but I've never and I think that was an out volcano of repressed emotion and what I was witnessing was on her face silently because she was crying but she wasn't really saying anything, I was seeing for the first time justice, vindication and the thing this woman has been screaming into an abyss for with unable to get her voice out when she's being strangled and that's what I was seeing and I was crying for her, I was crying for other women, I was crying for every victim, I was crying for myself, I was crying for you as the filmmaker, like oh shit and I know that this is one tiny step towards justice, this is not but for her to hear her abuser through his own actions and whatever vindicate her is huge, huge when you've been a victim of such extreme gaslighting, you know. Yeah, no it's so true, I mean because the thing you want desperately is you want desperately to be believed and I mean I remember from me the frustrating thing in 2017 was going to so many FBI officers and so many police officers and you know the DEA and you know police intelligence and the police in different countries and just nobody understood, nobody seemed to get it and I'd explain it again and again and then I would say to them I would bring lawyers in to explain the case and they just wouldn't get it and I was like what the fuck is wrong with these people so when finally I got a call from the FBI in the Eastern District of New York and they basically said we know you've been trying, we apologize but we're here, you know and I was just I sort of ripping them an asshole and they said just so you know we're not the same division, we're different division and it was such a feeling of like god, god finally we heard and then as I connected all the victims to the FBI all the victims were feeling like oh my god finally somebody's understanding so I could really relate to how she felt and to how you were feeling about how she felt as well because it's like oh I know what this feels like, you know. I had this moment the other day where I thought why am I waiting for my next vacation to enjoy life. I don't need a week off just a day to rest and recharge would be amazing. I booked a one day pass at the four seasons hotel in Spa Nashville and I'm like wow why am I just learning about resort pass. I may have only been 15 minutes from home but it felt like a whole different world. I'm Brella Drink, my favorite book, lunch brought right to me and I'm thinking this is exactly what I needed. It's a great deal. Andy and Anna here from your new favourite podcast, no such thing as a fish. Yes we are two of the four hosts of the podcast that stuffs fascinating amazing weird mad facts into your ears on a weekly basis. You got any good facts Andy? Yes how about this one. And eaters have evolved on 12 separate occasions. Wow. Mysterious, wonderful. The world really wants them to exist. What about this one? When a Ronald Reagan left office, he left a note on the White House lawn for the squirrels warning them to beware of George Bush's dogs. So there you go. If you like fascinating facts and much more besides, we are no such thing as a fish. Victims being believed is such a key thing whether that ends up ending up in a quarter or not. important thing is that someone knows and with my My own situation with stalking had female community police officers who came to my home the first time and they said we believe you, we understand this is a crime and then they named the crime which I hadn't even been able to name, but then unfortunately got passed on to male PC and it all went horribly, horribly wrong, you know, wherever. So I really do understand the challenges there and I think what we now face with this is how on earth do we and we need to get it comes down to one human being in a law enforcement job who gets it, who understands and that one person saying this is legitimate will lead to, you know, the expansion because having sought advice from a police officer, a retired police are very experienced, he's worked with international cases, he said this is how these people get away with it because our world has become the internet, we do not have a police force that looks after the internet in different countries and a huge amount of crime is being committed that way, be it fraud or abuse or, you know, pornography. But you know, the one thing I'll tell you that should give people hope is that when we all finally sat down with the FBI and the prosecutors, they said to us that they said basically you go into the New York Times was the best thing you could have done, it was the right thing you did, you know, because that's what blew it up, you know, and so in some ways sometimes okay, if law enforcement don't do it, all right, so let's do newspaper articles, you know, let's do podcasts, let's do films because at that point law enforcement, people start saying to law enforcement like what the fuck's your problem and they get embarrassed and then they do something. I don't like the term trial by media because I think there's some trial by medias that are done with misinformation, et cetera, et cetera. I think this is storytelling and truth telling and we let the audience judge and if that puts pressure on the right people in their day to day jobs and that's what we, I mean this is basically what the police officer said to me, he said, step one is making people aware and the awareness will shut him down online and that will shut down the supply and hopefully the once you're within his clutches right now will be woken up or have a bit of a slap in the face of, oh, hold on a sec here, that is the key thing. You'll hear more about the challenges of the path to justice later, but at the point of returning to the UK we believed Sam might be fearful of a knock at the door and maybe he'd not yet join the dots between Mark and myself. He's a prolific poster on social media and there'd been nothing since the confrontation. However, as the crew were packing up, Mark noticed a new post on Sam's YouTube which seemed direct it does and he was doing exactly what we expected, it's a post about a group of people going after an alleged evil perpetrator which he calls gang stalking. His long and repetitive and at times he's reading from a script, here's a tester. Victimhood gang stalking is a relatively new phenomenon which could be data back safely to the rise of social justice movements such as me too. In victimhood gang stalking, people who self identify as victims, people whose victim hood constitutes their entire identity, these people group together collude and collaborate against someone who is ostensibly the perpetrator, the evil one. It's a morality play of all good angelic people versus all bad evil doers. Sex stalking is described in the literature overwhelmingly as a kind of delusional disorder. It is sometimes conflated as I said with social justice activism with victimhood and walk movements such as me too, when gangs of activists and alleged victims, alleged self imputed victims, target individuals cast as evil perpetrators. There also grandiose reactions and oscasticulation which have to do with the arcane language of the group, the secret knowledge within the group, including the knowledge of anticipated actions that the group is initiating internally and that are to be inflicted on the victim or the target by surprise, taking the victim by surprise is a very empowering experience. It's intoxicating, there is a power inebriation within the group. Discrediting all gang stalking claims as delusional or paranoid is wrong. Indeed in most cases, people who claim that they are being gang stalked are or suffer from mental health issues, but on some occasions it is still a real phenomenon denied by a clueless and I would even say arrogant academic establishment, targeted individuals to exist and I am one of them. He goes on to talk about flying monkeys, conspiracies and suggests members of the gang stalking mob are in fact narcissists, psychopaths or thrill seekers. You've heard mention already about Sam using his YouTube as a direct communication tool to intended targets, this was most definitely intended for us. It didn't bother me because I know how ridiculous it is and he's acting out exactly what he said would happen if exposed, but for his victims, past and current, the impact of targeted videos is very damaging as Mark and I discussed in our interview. What people don't know is that the YouTube channel is part of his weapon, it is a tool and there is no random subject on there, probably every single video is directed at an audience of one, yes, it's true because I learned that because as I was talking to the woman they would text me and say this video here, this timestamp, that's the nickname he used for me, all these different nicknames which you know about as well now and then he's directed some things towards me as well, sometimes towards the production and I got like oh yeah, there it is, there it is but I'm very aware of not to react to anything, at some point I think that he will go even more ballistic against us, I imagine a smear campaign that's quite legendary in some ways in terms of YouTube, I also don't think he's going to be able to, I don't know how YouTube will allow that channel to continue once everything comes out, I think he's going to lose that and Richard actually said, you know, in the interviews we did recently in Scotland, Richard said that Sam's not actually equipped to deal with what's coming and I think that's probably true because they do, they get away with everything for so long, like we're neary, got away with everything for so long, he was in a state of utter shock when the police came to get him in Mexico and put him in a car, he was in such shock, I mean he turned into a complete baby, he was hiding in a closet, you know all the bravado gone, there's a certain point that these people, they live in a fantasy world so when reality catches up with them, they do kind of like implode, which is pretty much what he said in the interview with me, which is that this might be the one moment that they are faced with reality, they cannot be in the fantasy, everything falls apart and it's that one single moment where it's like, uh oh, I've been, I've been found out and actually recognising within themselves that, there's just, yeah, um, yeah, the victims sort of labour on about this point but I think it's just, it's such a key thing for people to get it, for those who are listening that are just want to sort of slightly jump on the victim, shaming and bleaming, what would you say to them about having some compassion for the victims and it's not as simple as they went to have therapy, the therapist said I should have sex with you to make you better and they agreed, that is not what happened. No, no, you know, I think the thing that I always try and do with people is try to have them find a time in their life when they felt x, y, and z, and I was thinking as you said that I thought, you know, is there ever been a time in your audience's life where they felt so utterly lost and so unhinged and so desperate? Everybody's had that. And imagine in that moment, somebody comes to you and says, I think I can help and hear the steps to help. And you've tried everything and they seem reasonable and they seem kind and you're like, okay, and then you start to engage in it and you start to feel better. This is a thing people don't understand. It's not all hell. There is this thing called love bombing. They're like, in the case of my cult leader, there was valuable stuff we got. Otherwise, we would never have stayed. They hook you with the things that will help you and you start feeling better and then comes the other shoe drops. And then there's all these hooks and all these issues and all these things. But you feel like, well, they haven't lied to me and it's helped and it's worked. So maybe I should just try this. And you start to feel worse and worse and worse. But you are lead yourself to believe because you've been told it's going to get a little hard before it gets better. And you go, okay, I mean, it's like anything like learning to ride a bike or learning to jujitsu or karate or everything. There's a period of time. It's so frustrating and you think, yeah, that makes sense. That's how reality works. It gets worse before it gets better. And before you know it, you're utterly trapped. And it's sort of like they've excavated you out of you and you don't have the ability anymore to resist. You don't have the boundaries anymore. It's not even like you can say to yourself, well, I need to have more boundaries. You don't even know what boundaries are. You're like the equivalent of you've taken a drug and you're so fucking unhinged and far from your actual self, you have no ability to know what's up and down. They always figure out what it is that you need, what it is that you yearn for. And they always give it to you. Sam has talked about this in great length, this co-idealization. They idealize the target. They make the target feel more seen and more heard than at any other time in their life. And what he talks about, he says, what I do is I give them the love they wanted from their mother but never got. How is that not intoxicating? You know, that's intoxicating. You know, even if you did have good love or bad love, everybody, you know, yearns for that feeling of being wrapped up in someone's arms and taking care of so completely and so seen and so heard. And they know how to find that, you know? And I've never met anybody that can really resist it. Now, once you understand, oh, that, you know, if they come on too strong and too loving into everything and I feel the sense of elation, that's a warning sign. That's a different level of understanding. But that's usually after you've been completely fucked over. That's when you go, like, this good feeling I'm having, I have suspicions, you know? But you don't have it at first. You first have to get really, really messed over before you develop the ability to analyze your own feelings and thoughts about, you know, any interaction with somebody. You have explained that so well, so well. And thank you for doing that because I think it's really important. What was going through my mind when you were talking there was just like imagining someone who's starving, starving. And this good Samaritan turns up, I have shelter, I have food come with me. And what you don't realize is the food that you're eating is poisoned. It's a heroine. So this food is nourishing you. It's whatever, but you're also addicted to it. And it's killing you. And you have no idea. And the boundary pushing normalizing, this is a word that I, you know, use, use a lot with, with my work. When they push boundaries, they've got a way of saying, no, but this is our new normal. So you accept things that you never, ever would have. And again, the self-sealing crime of when, when the, when the person wakes up, the shame, the embarrassment, the fear of judgment, the immediate need to try and go into such great detail with the evidence to explain, understand me, understand me, understand me. I thought it was very interesting. I, I think it was the first thing that said after she was introduced to me on that video call, the first thing, I love do you believe me, because that is an, and I get it. I get it. And as I said to her, my, the crime couldn't not, not the same, a crime couldn't committed against me by a stalker. I was as innocent of victim as one could be in terms of I didn't invite this person into my life. I happened to buy house next door. And even then I had to explain myself and give evidence and proof of what because even people who know me, you love me, they're all too busy in their own life school. Oh, but it's just that. It's just this or you just need to do that. They don't understand the intricacies. So understanding Sam, and understanding him through his own words of him talking in general, but he's very much talking about himself. It's like someone, it's like a colleague coming back from the lunch break. How is your lunch break? Yeah, I killed a few people, you know, chopped up the bodies, put it in the thing. You're like, oh, yeah, okay. But they really did do that. And I know, well, yeah, told you. And that is kind of, that isn't a way as blatant as Sam is being with his behavior, or sorry, in his, in his, it's so interlinked. He is what he teaches. He teaches what he is. He uses what he teaches to get the victims. They believe him to be the messiah of this area of expertise. And they're like, oh, if we can just understand that man that I was in love with that was destroying me or my, my parents or my whatever, this person can save me, not realizing they're far worse, potentially than the original offender. Yes. No, it's, it's so true. That's the, that's the rub, right? Is that he really does have insight. And that's the thing, you know, I mean, I mean, I mean, I've been studying a bunch of different cults and cult leaders. And there's, there's good stuff in the material. You know, there's, there's good, you learn good stuff. You, you do cool stuff. This whole black and white thing of like, it's all bad. Yeah. The good is used as a lure for the bad, but there is still good stuff. But you know, my general feeling is when anybody leaves, it's, okay, just make it all bad. It's better to make it all bad because then at least you can stay away from it. And later, maybe years later, you can think about what are the things I learned, but too early and you sort of get hooked back in. You've got to have that period of cold turkey to just catch your breath. You can't heal to, you've had time for that. You know, the fight, flight freeze to pass. Yeah. Also, you know, the six women I've spoken to, the level of paranoia that they have, the, you know, one moment they would be like, I think, thank God you're going to tell the story in the next minute they would just turn on me. And I understand. In fact, I remember talking to a number of psychologists, like, I can't tell you what it is. I mean, the situation, you know, and the victims have turned against me. And then I go, yeah, that's normal. But I remember as well, you know, when we were fighting, you know, in the cult, when we're outside, left the cult, we're fighting like a lot of the victims will turning on each other. There's all the stuff that happens because you're so dysregulated. You have so much paranoia. And the other thing is, I noticed with some of the victims, they thought he had, that Sam had almost supernatural abilities to understand things. And I would say he doesn't. He's like a computer. He doesn't have anything beyond just like, you know, a certain amount of logic, perhaps, but he doesn't have any special abilities. He's not tapping his phones. You know, he's not like, he hasn't, like, got into your computers. He hasn't done any of that. He can't do it. He's incapable. Because I had to be convinced of some of that. Now, in the case, in my case, Reneerie did hire private investigators who did hack phones and did do that shit. But I had to be shown by one of the very first people I spoke to, like, this man does not have supernatural abilities. You must disabuse yourself of the notion that he has some special power. He has nothing. I had to be like, talk down so that my fear could go down. And what Sam's done to these women is put them in such fear. And with some of them, put them in a state of like, I don't want anymore to look at this. I don't, I don't want to talk about this. I'm done. I just leave me alone, you know, like they try to bury it. I don't need a week off. Just a day to rest and recharge would be amazing. I booked a one day pass at the four seasons hotel in Spa Nashville. And I'm like, wow, why am I just learning about ResortPass? I'm Brella Drink, my favorite book, lunch brought right to me, and I'm thinking this is exactly what I needed. It's a great deal. (upbeat music) Andy and Anna here from your new favorite podcast, no such thing as a fish. Yes, we are two of the four hosts of the podcast that stuffs fascinating, amazing, weird, mad facts into your ears on a weekly basis. You got any good facts, Andy? Yes, how about this one? Antietas have evolved on 12 separate occasions. Wow. What about this one? When Ronald Reagan left office, he left a note on the White House lawn for the squirrels warning them to be aware of George Bush's dogs. So there you go. They want the men in black pen to erase it from their memory. I mean, that's how I felt when I went through my own situation with a narcissist, which was in a relationship. I just, I, and again, that was part of the thing with all the other victims of him, is that when I reached out to one to try and say, hold on to this guy, good or bad, or can you just give me a steer here? But she was too trumped as she never replied to me. I tried again, many, you know, a long time later to actually a family member of hers, who then was like, no, she can't even, I'm like, oh, wow, I wish I'd note that. Then, which is so clever. And again, whether it's romantic or a therapist or whatever role a cult leader, they're very clever in making that one individual feel like they are more important than all the others. And then there's a competition for that person's affection. And I recently was listened to a message from one victim who's further on in the healing journey to another victim who was still in it. And it was so blunt and brilliant. And she said, you are not special. You are just one of many of his. And that's a really key thing. Because the hook that gets you back in again, but hold on, there was this connection. No one ever understood me as well as him. Da, da, da, da, da, da, da. And it's like, no, he's not special. And you are not special to him. You're just one of many. And as you say, he notes the information. I mean, what his brain does very cleverly is, ah, they have a mother issue, they have a father issue, they have a whatever. I'm gonna lean into that. I'm gonna, you know, and then it all gets twisted again. So I think we've covered that quite well. Can you, can you tell me the, um, I just say one thing quickly that I think, just as an advice piece I was thinking, you know, if you're with somebody, I'm saying this to the audience. If you're with somebody and you feel like, the way you feel it, the way you feel with them is you're the only person that exists run, run. It's not true. It's a great feeling. It's the on-ramp terrible things, you know. And I understand that people do really do have soul connections and really do have moments where they like feel like, you know, the only two people that exist in the world and they are very beautiful moments like that. But if you just met somebody and they're attentive to you in such a way that you feel like you're the only person that exists, that's probably not good. That's very good advice to run. Anyone who puts their entire life on another person is not healthy of mind and it's just not true. That's brilliant, brilliant advice. And I think, yeah, I hope that people, you know, the final point of the film I think will be is we have to learn by educating ourselves. And, you know, your whole, the film, a big, big piece is the word narcissism, it gets thrown around. People don't really understand. There's a big difference between someone being selfish and being an asshole and being a, you know, a little bit self-serving. Then someone who is purely using other human beings to benefit them while deriving huge pleasure at utterly destroying them. And that, there's no sympathy. I mean, Sam, in the interview again, says, you should have absolutely no sympathy for narcissists, even if they were abused as children, even if they're whatever you could. I made a note of that because I thought, oh, that would be good in the cut. - I want to know how you felt when I called you. - When you called, 'cause I was just no tell just waiting, and I thought it was gonna be another hour, hour, or an hour and a half, and then suddenly you called, and I was like, hold shit, it's over? Like, what happened? And then I was scrambling for like fine ways to record. And so when you started telling me what happened, first of all, I was so relieved that he was like, out of the room, because I wasn't sure what happened, and also the whole fact that we had to change the location from exterior to interior worried me. So I felt enormously relieved, and then I felt really surprised to hear you tell the story, 'cause I was thinking, I assumed, as we all did, that probably he would react to someone like he had reacted in the past, which is just sort of to scream at somebody. And when you told me he didn't, I was like, that's interesting. And I was really fascinated as you told me the way he responded, and that's when I began realizing, oh, a couple of things. I think he was in shock, that was the one thought I had. And the other thought I had was, yeah, he was so surprised, he didn't even know how to calibrate to it. And I think that he's learned enough now to maybe withhold, to not be so impulsive, to kind of sit in his hands and not be so impulsive, because I do know the last few months he has felt afraid. When we finally sat down and watched the footage, you know, you meet Richard and Scott, that's when I think both Richard and I came to the conclusion, oh, Sam's actually very angry. And he came to it because he's been around Sam, and I came to it because I've been around Reneerie, and I saw the same thing occur, and I thought, oh, he's really, he's shocked. He's angry, he's trying to maintain composure, like there's so much going on. And in some ways, it's so interesting because this is what I like about it so much, 'cause we were thinking, oh, we're gonna get the explosion. I think what I like about it is you see the attempt to cover up, because what most of these people do is that. What most of them do, you see this with politicians, you see people like being interviewed on television, that have just made some horrendous decision, horrendous. And they're asked the question, and they're just very blankly respond in such a way, like, what? Well, I guess it can't be that bad, because they don't seem to be having an upset about it, and like, no, no, no, no, no. They just don't have the same, they don't feel the same way you do. So I thought it was very interesting because it shows the level of duplicity and deception that goes on, especially when you then just refer back to what he said for the last 10 minutes, 'cause the last 10 minutes before that, he's literally talking about what happens internally, and now he's pretending none of that's happening, but it is. And the fact that he actually agrees, 'cause when he walks out the door, he says, I'm not saying this, this is not the exact words, but something like, I'm not saying that this isn't true, something like that, and I thought, "My the fucker, he just admitted it." Like, if that is shown in court, like, "Okay, Mr. Vakten, what did you mean exactly?" To what is true, you know? So, but I was very relieved, and then I was a super relieved when you got back to, 'cause we ran through a lot of variations in our mind. Of course, there was the worst possibility that he would try to do something to you, which is why we wanted you out there so fast. I'm happy that none of that happened. I was very surprised, and I will say the awkwardness is so painful to watch, like it's painful. Painful, because if I imagined myself in his position, I would be mortified with embarrassment. And the fact that his wife is handing you a book, like it's almost like she's not computing what's happening. You know? That is interesting. - I was also in shock at his response, because what my take is, and I know we'll maybe delve more into this in future bit, I thought he wants this interview, to keep going, he just wants to say, "Let's ignore this horrible yucky thing "that you might have just brought up." And I think it wasn't till I said, I've seen the documents, hundreds of documents, and photographs. Now, he will know by photographs, I'm meaning explicit ones of him, where there is no doubt what is going on there and how inappropriate it was. - No, I was enjoying those photographs. - No, I don't want to see them ever again, quite frankly, and no one should see them, but it was, I think he just so desperately wanted what I was representing. and maybe a bit but but I do agree watching it back and then with Richard and I've watched it again since and I noticed this also when he has his little breakdown with you guys, he drinks, I think he uses that to give himself a moment, he's masking his face, he's hiding it and it's giving him a few seconds of an action where he's not having to display something because he bends down and drinks the water when he's having his upset moment with you guys when he cries. Yes, that's true, I hadn't thought of that, that's true, that's true and the thing is just picking up what you're saying is like I think what's going on, this is how delusionally is that he wants so badly this moment in the sun that he almost wants to erase what just happened, that there's a level of delusion as opposed to most people with like full set of fucking brain ability intact would be like I need to just leave, like I need to leave, like I'm found out, I just when I watched him think say like oh well we can continue to talk about other things that they're like you don't understand what's going on here do you, like you don't get it, it took a while for the penny to drop and it was awkward, it was painful and I've never had a scenario like that in my career where I've literally gone through the list of all the bad things and I, but I mean so people might think I sound calm, my heart was beating out of my body, I was shaking and it took me every bit of strength in my body, my mind to try and keep calm and I know that I just sound like you know I was trying so hard to stay steady and be slow what I'm saying so I you know and I know that I don't say it perfectly and I, there's other words in language I wish I'd used and a particular accusation which I forgot which was pretty serious one which is you know basically trying to persuade people to kill themselves, yeah, yeah that'll come out, that'll be, that'll be in the film though so it's okay, and but what I, what I got the point of was it was so surreal, like we're all just, he took so long to leave and then I'm actually embarrassed because I shook his hand and I'm like but he was, he was so desperately trying to keep the kind of facade of you know any smile he meant it was really nice to meet you and you know whatever you've done is unethical but I wish you a safe journey and if you do want to talk to me again it was, I think it was so, I'll tell you though when I saw you, when I saw you shake his hand I thought well that's interesting because what it shows is you have no malice towards him, there's no malice, like it feels like you, you went to do a job and you were doing a job there's no like, I hate you, there's none of that you know which is good. I actually say and I didn't get to finish my sentence with him I was trying to say to him this is really hard for me because I've enjoyed this conversation you are fascinating it's hard for me to then, you know, accuse you, I had a similar weird etiquette moment of this murder case and an 82 year old man who committed the crime when he was in his thirties and I tried to know when he was in his sixties he was behind me and it was a big heavy court door and I held the door because the other option was I slammed it in an old man's face and I, this guy physically committed the most horrific crime, like you know, bludgeoned bludgeoned a woman to death and just the awfulness, one of the worst crime scene photographs I've ever seen in my life and I realized he's behind me and kept it open and I think he even said thank you and I'm like the politeness overcomes of, you know, it's just fascinating you know, Lydia's like, well, I still give her the book, I'm just still, it was just weird but yeah, I guess I think it would be unprofessional of me to have started, you know, shouting at him and saying, you know, the things I really feel but also I was very much having to quell, I had to quell my true feelings and the true feelings really came out with when we spoke to him and I, yes, I didn't expect that. The final day of filming was an emotional roller coaster as I just touched on at the end there. The buildup was over many months but the buildup within me was over decades. As I lay in bed that night, after the crew finally left for the airport, I recorded this to capture my thoughts. Well, it's over, well, over for now. The crew have gone and it's going to take me a long time to decompress, to process everything. Yeah, I, I, I'm still, I mean, the adrenaline and everything and I was really shocked by my reaction to my conversation with today. I had not expected for that level of emotion but I also hadn't really had time to think about gosh, what must, or what would it be like for her to hear what happened. It was just the audio she, she hasn't seen it yet, that's to come. And what, which we all go through in detail. And we just have time to do it today because it's seen as 2.5 hours long. But to see her emotion, to see her, the impact that this has had on her to, and I think what she felt was just completely not of indication. And, yeah, I'm not very good at accepting praise and I do feel that my ball has been, you know, very small compared to what she's gone through. She's loved it, she survived it, you know, and she's had the bravery to stand up against them by coming out and being public, which is not easy for her to do believe me, it's caused some issues in her personal life. And, you know, it's a very difficult scenario to be in. But I just, for a woman I have not met yet, the feelings I have for are pretty strong and I just feel so much for her, I can't find the words yet. But the time this is hard, we're seeing. I'm sure the backstory which I have not yet done will have been played off me learning of her full story. So this is a bit unusual for me to do this story back to front, but we just couldn't risk even with her. We knew that she wouldn't tell him, but just for her not to have the burden of that knowledge is important. So, yeah, I'm doing some washing and vacuuming my house and, you know, my own life just seems so insignificant when you're working on something like this and, you know, these things are huge or huge and affects a lot of people. And there really is an honour and privilege to be, to have been one of the cogs in a wheel of, you know, a lot of people who care, a lot of people who've been an effort, a lot of people who've shared their stories and, yeah, again, I've got to, I haven't yet interviewed any of them, it's to come. So I've got a busy schedule ahead of me and, yeah, this will be a going back in time moment. I wonder how I'll feel in higher of many months, time. I just don't know, but I'll take today's a big one. This voiceover I'm recording now is three months on from the night the crew left. I've been working on this completely isolated, long, long hours every day. It's taken over my life like I predicted. My brain is consumed by it. I have great difficulty switching off. I've carried out many more interviews and edited around 20 episodes with more to do. There is so much you've yet to hear, including the start of the story. The real beginning of the tale of the woman nicknamed Bambi and how she was slowly led into a trap. In the next episode of The Narcissist Playbook, how Sam Vaknen set the trap by falsely diagnosing his patient with borderline personality disorder. He told me, "Oh look, you are extrinsic. You are extremely extremely sick. You need help. You need to prolong it. Dame Diff they did and Dame Diff they didn't. The prison, the victims couldn't escape." He has double binding you about everything. And it works. It does work because it's really cutting your brain into pieces. And Sam's wife, Lydia, plays her part in the lure. And suddenly, quite all of a sudden, Lydia stood up, took the chair, through the chair, at him, started to shout, "Curse, you know, like fuck, you, you son of a bitch." He was so out of the blue, I couldn't understand what was happening. The storyteller, Narcissus Playbook, is written, produced, and edited by me, Isla Troquere. And it's the fourth in the storyteller series. This is an independent production, and I rely on you, the listeners, to help spread the word by showing your support. It doesn't cost anything, just a few clicks, to like, share, subscribe, and review. And soon there'll be extra content available on my Patreon for the price of a cup of coffee, reading analysis, evidence, regular videos, and more. Thank you for listening. If you've been affected by Narcissus Stick Abuse, there are links for support in the show notes. I had this moment the other day where I thought, "Why am I waiting for my next vacation to enjoy life?" I don't need a week off, just a day to rest and recharge would be amazing. There are hundreds of hotel resort pools, spas, and private beaches that you can be enjoying today without spending the night. Why am I just learning about ResortPass? I'm Breladrink, my favorite book, lunch brought right to me, and I'm thinking this is exactly what I needed. It's a great deal. Go to ResortPass.com/janna and use my code Jana to get $20 off when you spend $100. That's code Jana at ResortPass.com/janna. Andy and Anna here from your new favorite podcast, no such thing as a fish. Yes, we are two of the four hosts of the podcast that's stuff's fascinating, amazing, weird, mad facts into your ears on a weekly basis. Antieters have evolved on 12 separate occasions. Wow. What about this one? When a Ronald Reagan left office, he left a note on the White House lawn for the squirrels warning them to be aware of George Bush's dogs. So there you go. If you like fascinating facts and much more besides, we are no such thing as a fish.