EP#9- Flow, Mindfulness, and Making Purposeful Decisions with Julia Colangelo, LCSW, Therapist, and Flow Researcher

(gentle music) - Hi everyone, welcome back to Everyday Endorphins. This week's episode discusses flow, which is very tied into mindfulness, but a bit different, and how to live a purposeful life, which is a pretty loaded question and topic, but I am so fortunate to have been able to sit down with Julia Kalangelo, who is my guest for this week's episode, to talk all about her research and flow and mindfulness and how to make better choices. Julia received her master's degree in clinical social work at Columbia University, and then also went on to receive a doctorate of social work at the University of Pennsylvania, where her dissertation focused on flow and mindfulness strategies for happiness, burnout prevention and innovation. She's currently a therapist based out in New York City, and also in Hawaii where she is able to surf, she has her own podcast called Flow Surfers, where she discusses topics of flow and how it's related to surfing. So I'm not gonna keep rambling on because I do wanna get into the interview, but before we do so, I wanna give a brief shout out to Inker, which is the app I used to record these episodes, and also if you love coffee, you can use the code Endorphins to receive 10% off of your order from strive. (gentle music) - Hi, Julia. Thank you so much for coming on to Everyday Endorphins today. How have you been doing? - Oh, I'm so excited to be here. Thank you so much for having me, Stella. Things are going well, you know, at the time of this recording, there's a feeling of hope, and I'm certainly, I'm certainly rolling with that right now. - Yeah, for sure. I mean, now we've had some time to digest the results of the election, and I think that's created a very hopeful environment. I feel very similarly just happy with how things turned out at the moment. - I feel the same way, and I know that we're gonna be talking about mindfulness and flow, and I think it's such a relevant topic for the end of year into moving into a whole new year. And a lot of us are looking at this time as a new beginning, and as a time of not only personal hope, but sort of like community growth and hope, and I'm excited to dive into this. - Yeah, and also today, I think we found out that there's this new vaccine that seems to be 90% effective. I know it's still very much up in the air, and nothing's really been confirmed at the moment, but I agree with you. I think we're moving into the new year, feeling a bit more hopeful about all the current states of the world. So I think our conversation around flow and mindfulness is incredibly timely and very relevant at this present moment. So I'd love to start off by talking a little bit about what exactly is flow, and how is that different from being in a more mindful state? - That's a great question. And I get asked this a lot, which is why I always encourage anyone who's listening to think about flow as really adapting it into your own language. So for some of us, the more formal definition, it was a term coined by Mihai Chiq sent Mihai, who's been researching flow for over 50 years out of the University of Chicago. It's the optimal state of your performance. So we think of flow as maybe peak performance or this optimal state of being. Maybe we feel flow or we experience it when we're totally in the zone, totally immersed or like hyperproductive in whatever it is that we're doing a task at hand, maybe reading something, creating something, and we lose sense of time and place. And what's really exciting in some of the research is that when we think of flow, we used to think of the brain when we talk about endorphins, all using every part of the brain, and that's how we were able to be fully immersed. But what research has found is that we only use a very specific part of our brain when we are in a flow state, when we're in that moment of optimal performance. And that means that we have those experiences of self-doubt slip away. We're no longer worried about what other people are thinking. We're not judging ourselves. And we're able to really deeply align and connect with exactly what it is that we're doing in that given moment, which is why many of us want those endorphins. We want more flow states in daily life. And this differs from mindfulness, which is the state of being with what is just as it is. Now both are phenomenal experiences. I like to always encourage everyone to experience mindfulness. And then if they're looking to experience sort of a next level of enhanced, again, natural organic experience of that optimal level, maybe enhanced creativity, more productivity. Again, in a very aligned, personalized, customized way, that's when you want to access flow. Yeah. And it seems like flow is more of that heightened state of awareness, similar to mindfulness, but you're really engaged in an activity very focused, kind of like all the other background noise fades away. I think for me personally, the closest I've experienced flow is probably when I used to play the violin growing up. And sometimes when I was in the middle of a piece, I feel like I would just be so focused on the music that everything just came very naturally. And there was less of a conscience thought associated with the activity that I was doing. So would you say that when you're in this flow-like state, people are just able to really be fully engaged in the activity that they're doing, and without any background distractions or anxieties or stresses kind of popping up around the periphery? That's exactly right. And that's why we want it, right? We don't, we prefer not to be in distressing states where our own self-doubt creeps in and tells us those negative beliefs of that we're not good enough, that someone's doing it better, that we're missing out on certain opportunities. And we were able to really access flow when we are honoring exactly who we are. And then there's a specific combination of elements that we need to access flow states. And I like to always reference the flow channel, which means that we are combining time and a certain level of skill. And then how it moves from just doing an activity for a certain amount of time is that we're always slightly and very intentionally increasing the level of challenge. So that's how we don't achieve flow. It's not something we cross off of our bucket list. It's something that we're constantly stretching our own capacity to be more connected to what we're good at, what we want to challenge ourselves with. And then we are, again, always able to sort of keep leveling up and that enhances our self-esteem. It shows us that we can overcome challenges that we face in our daily lives. And it makes us feel really connected to our deeper purpose and our meaning in life. Because whatever we're good at, we're trying to constantly sort of get better at. And usually that getting better, at least in the work that I do, it means that then we're able to have a positive impact on the world because we're getting more focused and really able to deliver whatever services or products in a more meaningful and just more connected and aligned way. Yeah, and I love how you mentioned that when you're in a flow-like state, it's not as if it's necessarily coming easy to you. You have to constantly challenge yourself, push yourself beyond what you think may be possible. And it's in that working through the challenge where you can achieve that optimal level of performance. I think bringing it back to my violin example, I remember that it was in the moments where I was really struggling with a certain part of a piece or I was really trying to work through that one section. Like almost instantaneously, if I was really focused on it, it kind of just came to me. And it was in that feeling where you're lost in that moment, all of the sudden, you take a step back and you're like, "Oh wow, I just accomplished that." Like that feeling of confidence that you're describing. Yes, and that's the critical juncture that we want to lean into and we want to explore more. Now, all of us would probably love to live in flow every single moment of every single day to experience these heightened flow states. Our nervous system can't sustain that day in and day out because it's this hyper aroused state in our brains, right? Where we're working on overdrive and we're optimizing our own skill set and we're confident. Now, what is possible, and this is a lot of the work that I do and the research that I enjoy on flow and mindfulness, is having less extreme highs and lows of flow states, more gradual waves, and this is often defined as unified flow or flow consciousness. And this is where flow really becomes an integral part of who we are as a person of how we relate to the world, of how we connect with people around us, of how we define meaning and engage in anything that's happening in our communities, in our personal identities, in any interaction, and it's this sort of awakeness. And that's how I tied so closely into mindfulness strategies, because when we combine both, that really allows that sort of, you know, sinking into our purpose and knowing that every choice we're making is an alignment with the direction that we want to go in. And this is where intentional action comes in and making, you know, the importance of making choices that actually align with our values, and not with, I think, you know, in our 20s and 30s, it's very easy to fall into the sheds of, you know, well, I should make this choice to do this in my career or in a relationship. And when you integrate these flow and mindfulness strategies, instead, you're able to really pause and make sure that you're living in your alignment, which will be different whoever you are, customized to every single person. Yeah. So, how can we strive to have more flow like mindfulness, like states in our day to day being, and, you know, abstracting away from the extremities of feeling very high flow like state, and then kind of more at a low point, how can we try to find more opportunities in our day to day life to practice flow so that we can be in better alignment with our values and our beliefs and our actions? Such a great question. I think that it comes down to looking at opportunities in daily life, those micro opportunities that you can say yes to that might challenge you a little, might, might stretch you even just 5% out of your comfort zone to engage in a different sort of, sort of reality, sort of opportunity to connect and start saying yes to those things that are a little outside of your comfort zone. And then of course, boundaries certainly help in accessing flow and mindfulness saying no to things that pull you out of flow, setting those boundaries a bit firmer, and that's where sort of these interpersonal skills can be really helpful. So a lot of us think, well, exercise movement might bring, might trigger flow or mindfulness, but not if it's a complicated process of two hours start to finish, your flow state will be lost in that, you know, complex routine and getting ready and amping yourself up, actually exercising and having the recovery period. So we want to be really intentional and one tool that I suggest is simply starting with your values and identifying your values and then looking at how your values impact your daily choices currently and if there's congruency. Are your daily values, you know, lining up with how you're living your life, with who you're talking to, who's on your top text messages, who you're following on social media. Is there alignment? If there is great, there's misalignment, be kind to yourself and notice that you can make a few tweaks to trigger more flow and really piecing apart what you've been able to utilize that has triggered flow in the past. So this is a big obstacle for a lot of people and they're like, how do I start doing this? Start by being your own best researcher. When, like you give that great example of playing the violin for me, it's surfing. It's like I can really research and piece apart any element that triggers flow when I'm about to surf. Whether it's wiping out or catching the biggest wave of my life, both trigger flow for me and both remind me of my purpose and my place in this world, right? Sort of as part of something so much bigger than me that I'm just doing these microactions to take good action, contribute in a positive way, leave a better mark on the world in my greatest hopes and dreams. That's at least my hope. I mean, I love so many of the points that you bring up. I mean, one of which being for you surfing is where you can really tap into that flow like state and it seems that, you know, what I'm hearing is that when you want to have a more sustained flow like energy or awareness in your day to day life, it's really about researching or tapping into or discovering those moments where you are able to access flow and really understanding what that experience is like and then digesting that and turning it into more so like a mindset, like a childlike curiosity in your day to day living, really viewing everything as more so an opportunity really getting excited about all that is offered in the world. And hopefully by having that type of mindset, you're able to be a bit more in tune to the values that you do hold and seeing if there's alignment or misalignment. And this ties in so well to how to make decisions throughout your life, right? So when you are aligned with your values, when you are regularly checking in intuitively to where you're at, right? Yeah, that sort of gut check of like, am I doing what I want to be doing? Is this a should? Am I feeling pressure to get a certain job or go to a certain school or do a masters or you know, follow in this expected trajectory? When you are regularly tuning into that, then you will be really flexing the muscle of making intentional decisions. And this helps prevent. I joke a lot of the time that a lot of the coaching that I do and straddle at life strategy work is based on saving people from a midlife crisis because I help them make better decisions to save them all that time of ending up down a path that has nothing to do with who they are in their real independence in their total, again, individualized self. And we want to prevent that because that ends up with a lot of miserable, unhappy people in their, you know, forties, fifties, third days even. And or even late twenties, I've seen it. I know it's sort of a quarter life crisis, but it can feel like an already amplified midlife crisis at that age. And so when we got checked, what we're doing at every stage of life and in all those interactions, life becomes more fulfilling. We can experience joy in those daily interactions. We're awake to opportunities. I like to say you're, you know, a lot of, a lot of people will get the biggest opportunities from saying yes to something so micro in daily life. You know, pre-COVID, it would be, you know, someone that you interact with at a coffee shop that could open a whole door of opportunities. Or for me, this happens a lot. Someone liking or connecting to me on Instagram or me with something that they've shared blossoms an entire personal or professional relationship that opens up opportunities, opens up an opportunity to really connect with another person in a meaningful way to support another person. But we have to be awake to making these choices. And then those experiences lead to that total flow, right? That unified flow experience where we can really be connected with who we're meant to be. I love how you're really talking about making these smaller changes on a day-to-day basis. These like micro steps or micro habits. And the question, like, what is my purpose or how fulfilling meaningful life is very daunting and stressful and like very theoretical and philosophical. And it can just, especially, you know, in your early 20s, you called student recent graduate, whatever it may be. I feel like that's a question we're all striving to answer. And that period of time in your life is so critical to figuring out, you know, what is your purpose? What brings you joy and happiness and what actions help you derive meaning out of your life? And it seems like if you're able to be a bit more awake as you're saying and be a bit more aware in the present moment in the day-to-day, just doing really small things every day can help to awaken the senses or at the very least bring a different perspective. So you have a bit more clarity about what your purpose may be. And I think this also might even tie into like a piffinies because I feel like, you know, it's not like you wake up one day and you're like, okay, my purpose is to do XYZ. I mean, I also think purpose isn't necessarily doing one specific action. It's probably a bit more symbolic, like, let's say your dream is to be a doctor. You're not going to say, oh, my purpose in life is to be a doctor and maybe my purpose is to help people or to be selfless and that manifests itself in practicing medicine or something like that. So I think it's really interesting that you bring up the point about tapping into smaller flow-like states every day and trusting that by doing so, you're able to have a greater sense of clarity where you can really understand your value system and see where certain actions may align or not align and tapping into that and also recognizing if they're not aligning understanding why they're not. not aligning, making changes that might help to better bring the two together. You touched on so many great points and when we notice those misalignments, that's when we just turn up the volume on our self-compassion. And that's why I don't, I don't ever suggest flow without mindfulness because you're always going to have to return to that mindful practice of connecting with your breath, with wherever your feet are, especially in times like these. A lot of people previously, a couple of years ago, some of my clients made it have said, "Well, I need to really have a wake up call. My purpose is to move abroad." So they could just do that on a, on right, the next day, hop on a flight. That's not possible or safe right now. And so I want to just encourage any of you listening that you can make just as significant changes from exactly where you are. It always comes down to being exactly where your feet are, connecting with your purpose in daily interactions, integrating positive self-talk, integrating different exercises that again, align with your values. And the more you practice this now, it can be five minutes a day. I like to encourage having a wall of those, those values. And so you do a finity mapping of your values, right, having them really in your face in a loving way. So that any decision you're making, you kind of got to check it and bring it back and say, "Okay, yeah, this is all lines with where I want to go." And again, the preventative nature, I come from a mental health background. I'm a doctor of social work and I've worked as a social worker for 10 years as well. In addition to the coaching and strategy work and the writing that I do. And so much of what we do within the mental health field is aimed at being preventative. Why? Because it saves lives, right? It enhances and increases life expectancy. The same with this emotional reaction, even if you're not someone who's in therapy or is struggling with any mental health need. The underlying emphasis that you need to live with some sense of at least fulfillment and ideally, you know, joy and euphoria and elation, right, to speak to everyday endorphins, that need, you need to start this work sooner. And then the purpose unfolds in front of you. You don't have to take as much initiative or put an emphasis on that because it will unfold as you're taking these daily micro actions in your 20s and 30s. And beyond for that matter. Yeah. And I mean, I feel like it's so much easier said than done to objectively look at your value system, let's say you do the affinity value mapping exercise than you also think about your actions and see where there is alignment or where there is an alignment. I feel like it's so much easier said than done to just say, okay, well, I behaved in this way, but it doesn't align with my value. So I'm going to make a different choice. And sometimes I feel like making the right choice is even harder than making the choice that's more convenient or easier or habitual. So do you have any recommendations or advice on some strategies that might ease the challenge of being more in tune to what is actually right for you to do, what is the right choice for you to make? Such great questions. So I have a free workbook that for visual learners, you can download for free. Dr. Julia Kalangelo.com/choice. You can check that out for a visual learner. That's how I am in my 30s. I definitely need tools in front of me in addition to podcasts. So research tells us that it takes between 18 to 254 days for us to develop a new habit. And that's the same with decision making. So what I would suggest for the top strategies are consistent accountability. That can be in a friend, it can be in a roommate, it can be in a partner, it can be with your journal if you are a private person. It can be with your Google reminders that you schedule a reminder each day to check in with and do sort of like a gut check with your values. They can separately or additionally be with someone like a therapist, a coach, someone, maybe a professor, maybe someone in your life that's been a mentor that you can have ongoing accountability with. I encourage those that are in their 20s to develop if you can. And I have this still, and I'm not in college and I've been in college for a while. I have peer support groups that are not necessarily the most consistent accountability, but they're something. And that something is better than nothing to make sure that I'm staying on track with my goals and my decision making aligns with who I'm meant to be and who I am in my core. And when you establish those sorts of routines, and I'm speaking, you know, it can be a monthly peer support on Zoom. It can be a quarterly or it can be something weekly or biweekly depending on what the peers agree, agree works for everyone. And you just check in and you set some intentions. You hold yourself accountable. Maybe you take hot seat opportunities to kind of like drill down on each other about like, you know, if you're stretching each other, each other's capacity and really pushing yourselves towards your goals, you can run it however you'd like, but that sort of accountability is not only fun, but it really engages our senses to bring back to your early point in connecting with our community. Another strategy I like to encourage is kind of race against yourself. And so if you want to enhance your own focus on your purpose and creating alignment and decision making, you can do something like time tracking. And kind of like, you know, really kind of measure yourself against yourself and try to amp things up and become more focused and productive moving towards your goals. And there are so many other tools that I encourage you to explore, but those are great places to start, especially when you're in this emerging stage of sort of emerging adulthood and trying to figure it out without figuring it out too much and still wanting to have fun and certainly establish community that will be with you for the long run. Definitely. And I also feel like everything that we're talking about is so introspective and requires you to really sit with yourself, to really take a step back and do things by yourself, whether it's go to a, safely now, I guess, go to a cafe and maybe sit down and write or read or tap into something that maybe exercises more of a creative muscle that inspires you to develop those smaller, low-like states in your day to day. And it's funny because we've all been in quarantine for the former part of the year and Sears has been really weird in general. Very big change of pace. And we've been stuck at home and forced to spend a lot of times with our self and I mean, in college, I'm usually, I'm used to being around so many people at once, whether it's passing faces on campus, being in classrooms, going out, going to friends, apartments, whatever it may be, I feel like I was constantly around people and energized by others around me. And as much as I miss that because I really do, I also think that quarantine has made me a bit more of a hermit. I have to. Yeah. I've also really appreciated having more alone time because it's kind of forced me to be a bit more introspective and I think a lot of people and sometimes even myself included like have struggled with just sitting with yourself and being alone. And I think it's so important to first get really comfortable with that before you can even begin to identify how your values are aligning with your actions and behaviors and adopting a different type of perspective around flow and mindfulness and meditation. I completely agree and anyone who's listening tried to be kind to yourself if you're saying, oh no, the last eight months, I didn't optimize my time. There's never a race. This is a lifelong journey. And to speak to your earlier point about stepping into purpose and there's a reason why there's the term purpose driven life because it's not, I've got my purpose down and now I'm set. It's always, there's always going to be a natural evolution and you want to lean into that and that will actually trigger more flow and more creativity, which is actually that's that intuitive play that we want as adults. We want to feel that freedom, that flexibility, that overall flow and that creates more joy in any experience that we're having in our lives. And I think that often people ask me that I did always know I wanted to be a therapist and a professor and research this and yes and no. And that's a good thing because even though I am very, I love my career, I love the work that I do with researching and writing and coaching and strategy and speaking pre-COVID And I love that there is so much, I mean, my 30s, there is so much I don't know and I won't know until the next stage of life. And I'm open to that. And that's exciting and invigorating and that feeling of having that eagerness and curiosity, childlike curiosity in my 30s is how I know I'll prevent the midlife crisis that so many of us dread and we've maybe witnessed other people go through in our lives. And so if you're in your 20s, getting really curious about saying, you know, this truth for you right now in your 20s will have a different evolution in your 30s. And that's a good thing. And don't look at that as a crisis or something you have to fix. Look at it as an exciting opportunity where you get to make some new decisions and pivots and evolutions that you get to lean into and learn from and probably have more fun and make more positive change, right? So this is all a good, just sort of like setting of the stage for the rest of your life. This work doesn't end and yes, it can be tiring sometimes. But most of all, it's energizing and the residual impacts are we serve more people? We do more good. We leave a better mark on the world. And there's not much better of a reward that we can ask for. Yeah. And I love, you know, going back to your earlier point about having a purpose-driven life and understanding that your purpose is constantly evolving. I love that idea of how things are constantly changing and that's okay. I used to be so stressed and afraid of the fact that things are bound to always change in life. And that's the one thing that's constant that happens in life is just the recurrence of change. And as a child, like if I ever thought to myself, oh, what's my purpose? I think a lot of children ask these very philosophical questions and don't really know how to make meaning of it. Oh, what's my purpose? What am I going to be when I grow up? I always thought I was going to be one thing. But as you've just mentioned, these chapters that you experience throughout your life, external circumstances change. And that's going to inevitably impact the way in which your purpose may transform. So instead of shying away from it or feeling really anxious about it, more so lean in instead and get excited about the opportunity that comes with the change occurring in your purpose. And I think being a tune to understanding the way that change is impacting your life can only fuel a greater desire to lean into the change of that purpose and get really excited about it. And that's why community is important, right? Creating your accountability pod or leaning in with supports that you know have your back so that they're along for those waves of highs and lows that are very natural as we're sort of doing things that are outside of our comfort zone and stretching our own capacity. So lean into those people or those places or those things. It can be pets. It can be anything and have fun with it. And I think that as you challenge yourself, as you test out, activating more flow more often and in different creative ways, you'll find what feels best for you. And then when you want more of it, you just turn the volume up and replicate it. It's sort of just again being your own researcher and being entrusting your skills and strengths. That's what ultimately will lead to more flow more often. And so trust that. Your uniqueness is what we want to optimize and also probably what's going to help make the world a better place altogether. Thank you for that. That's so beautiful. And I feel like we all need a constant reminder of everything that you've just described this early evening. And I'm so happy to have you on the podcast today. Your research is really incredible in all the work that you do in the coaching therapy, mental health, social work field is really inspiring. So I'm really happy we were able to reconnect on this podcast. And one last question that I have for you that I ask every single guest that comes onto the show is revolved around endorphins and happiness and really taps into the name of my podcast. What is one thing that brings you endorphins every day? Oh, looking at my daughter and her intuitive play and just looking at her connect with the moment with no self doubt. It's just nothing brings me more happiness. That's so beautiful. She's the best. She's a super awesome toddler. You're just like kids are, it's very fun to observe children because they really don't have like any concept, your like understanding of the way the world actually is. And like I've even found myself at times wishing that I was like nine years old again because things are just so much easier. I mean, I guess that ties into the idea of like is ignorance bliss. I don't know, but children, they see things in a very opportunistic way and it's really beautiful. Like once you're older and you have a bit more wisdom and years under your belt to see that and really be so excited for the younger generation or your child or the youth as well. And I think that that's, you know, I'll be I'm writing more about this now, but my challenge for the for the current, you know, generations of 20s and 30s is that and beyond for that matter, it is not too late to relearn how to be like my toddler daughter who is happy and connected to her purpose and aligned. It will take work. And so using some of the strategies that we talked about today and taking this seriously, like this is, this is something that will dictate the rest of your life. And so if you want to be like that, you know, my amazing two year old that is active and happy and aligned in every way, you can be. It takes daily practice and flexing that muscle and connecting with people of similar perspectives and hopefulness, but also realism and again, flexing that muscle to activate more flow and mindfulness. And I'll also say because I love my clients that the second thing that gives me endorphins are my clients who are change makers and leaders and people that are taking things seriously to create more positive change in the world and are optimizing their strengths and skills boldly, right? It's it's so easy for anyone to blend in. And that is the easiest way to not access flow is by playing by the rules and blending into what everyone else is doing because of the sheds. The more you step into your unique purpose and purposeful direction, you will, the game changes and you will really optimize who you're meant to be. And that's when major opportunities can come. Yeah. You're knocking on your knocking on your door. It's always in the small wins as always in the small wins. You got that right. Well, thank you so much. Thank you so much, Stella. And if anyone ever has any questions, you can feel free to contact me. I'm at Dr. Julia Colangelo on every social media and my website. And if you want that pre-workbook, I made it for all of you. It's Dr. Julia Colangelo.com/choice. And I always like to say, may you find flow and ease and surf the waves of life. Good luck, everyone. Thank you. [MUSIC]