Ep. 86: Dr. David Richo — How Triggers Can Free You From Anxiety and Pain

[Music] Welcome to the Think Act to Be Podcast. This is Seth Gilla-Han. I guess this week is Dr. David Rico, who's actually on the podcast before back in 2018, when we talked about mindfulness in relationships. This time we're focusing on his new book, Triggers, How to Stop Reacting and Start Healing. It's a great guide for how to use your emotional reactions when you're triggered as the starting point for identifying and resolving underlying issues. One of the things I love most about Dave's approach is how he doesn't pretend that there's some trick or technique that's going to take away your difficult emotions or make life a breeze. He's honest about the challenges all of us will face and how accepting those challenges is the path toward becoming a full-fledged adult. One thing I especially wanted to draw your attention to in this episode is Dave's encouragement to make a commitment to working on yourself when you're triggered rather than blaming others or assuming the problem is with them. I'm thinking about this a lot more in my own closest relationships since Dave and I spoke, especially in my marriage and trying to remember to be curious about my reactions instead of focusing on my feeling of hurt or injustice or whatever. As Dave and I discuss, there's true freedom to be found in that approach and it lets us let go of so much unnecessary tension in our relationships. So, you know, give it a try yourself. See how it goes. David Rico is a psychotherapist, teacher, workshop leader and writer who works in Santa Barbara and San Francisco. He combines Jungian, poetic and mythic perspectives in his integrative work as he draws on psychological and spiritual traditions including Buddhist and Christian practices. Dave is the author of over 20 books including How to Be an Adult in Relationships, How to Be an Adult in Love and the Five Things we cannot Change. So here's our discussion. Thank you for listening to The Think Act B podcast. I'm speaking with Dr. David Rico. Dave, thank you for joining me again. My pleasure, Seth. Thanks for inviting me. Well, certainly I enjoyed our first conversation while back now you were one of my first podcast guests and I was pleased to hear that you had a new book out called Triggers, How We Can Stop Reacting and Start Healing. So I'm looking forward to talking to you about that today. So maybe I'll start and ask, how do we know when we're triggered? I mean, is it different from just being upset by something? No, it isn't different. Being upset would be an example of being triggered. And basically, it has to do with having a reaction that one you're not in control of and two seems bigger than the event that occurred. And it's usually something to do with fear, anger, or shame if it's negative. And if it's positive, it would be joy or excitement. Or somehow you're animated. Yeah, so it can be positive or negative, it sounds like. Yes, although we use it mostly, I mean in society, we say I'm triggered, we usually mean something negative. Yeah, yeah, that's how I'm used to hearing it used. And so either it's. I mean, it sounds like it's just a. It seems like in some way we're making a bigger deal about something than the situation itself calls for. Is that a fair way to think about a good indicator of it? Yeah. Right. And the reason we're making a bigger deal out of it relates to the word healing in the subtitle of the book. How we can stop reacting and start healing. Because we are picking up on some unfinished business that's still alive and are psyche. And it could go all the way back to childhood. It's kind of a. It's often a. re-simulation of some original trauma. And we're suddenly being forced to look into it, or to feel it again. And of course, one of the essential issues with trauma, let's say you had trauma of being abused in childhood, an essential feature of finding therapeutic help, is that you would. that you would take it slow, that you would broach the question in the memory very gingerly, and you would work with someone in therapy who would help you look into it just at the proper timing that fits for the level of abuse that you went through. But with a trigger, you're suddenly pushed into it. Your nose is rubbed in it. And you weren't ready, and that explains why it feels so destabilizing. And so you're describing me as the subtitle of your book suggests, it's not necessarily a good thing just to avoid our triggers that maybe they have something to teach us. So could you. Is it. the idea seems to be that our triggers can turn into tools. Yes. Yeah, since the triggers point to or re-stimulate the emotional unfinished business, and since healing means processing and resolving past issues, so they don't sit in us like inner demons. And when you use your triggers, it has a kind of trailhead to begin the height into your past and the unfinished business. You find healing because the triggers instigated the journey. And the book is basically about that and about how to do that kind of work. Otherwise, it just uses triggers as a form of blaming. Right. Yeah. In that context, Dave, can you describe the part one and part two reactions to triggers that you write about in the book? So there are two parts to what happens inside you. One is noticing what a big reaction you're having. Hey, why is this bothering me so much? And then secondly, where can this take me in my own work on myself? So I will be able to get past it. It seems like a lot of the time we stop it at the very beginning of part one and just get upset with the person who triggered us. And don't even we don't even recognize it as your provoking something that lives inside of me, but it feels more like the person is just doing something to us. Yeah, and that also happens all over the place in relationships anyway, because something happens that bothers you in what your partner has said or done. And you simply go straight to blaming. And blame is always an indicator that there's something you're not looking at in yourself. One of the main examples of what you're not looking at is grief, because you feel sad about how somebody did something, but instead of going to the grief, which makes us more vulnerable, we go straight to the anger and blaming. And that doesn't really help us. It doesn't help the relationship grow. No, I can certainly relate to too many times going down that path myself and. You know, only after a long argument with a lot of painful feelings realizing like, "Oh, wow, this is really my issue." I'm only being triggered because I have this issue. It's really not. It's not, I can't just point the finger at my spouse. Exactly. And you're willing to say that, it's a great tribute to your own honesty. I think that happened once. Well, let's hope it's just the first time. That's right. And of course, it's difficult for all of us. And I especially put the accents on the difference between true anger and abuse in relationships, because sometimes what we're doing when we think it's anger is abusing someone. And by first of all, sometimes people are abusing us while thinking it's anger. Oh, I have a chart in the book that shows you the difference between anger and abuse. So you encourage us to go beyond simply recognizing when our triggers are false alarms, recognizing when we're reacting to something that's not actually there, maybe that our partners or someone else is doing, and do deeper work on ourselves. And I think it seems like a lot of therapy and self-help stops at the questioning your triggers level. What's the evidence for? If someone says something, you think they're disrespecting you. Is there an alternative explanation? Is it possible you're misreading it? But as I understand it, you're suggesting we go beyond just recognizing, "Oh, I guess I wasn't seeing that right." And again, capitalizing on an opportunity to maybe move to a different place. Can you say something about how we can start moving toward that deeper work? It always begins with seeing your own stuff rather than seeing what you think is wrong in the other person. And when you have made a commitment to look into your own work, what is happening that shows me where I have unfinished business that I need to take care of? Not to give an example of unfinished business. Then you're more likely to gain from your experience rather than turn it into yet another way of distancing yourself from others. So here's a simple example. Your mother would hit you for apparently no reason. But it certainly felt like she was just pleased with you. And she turned it into abuse instead of anger. And you didn't like it. It was humiliating. But there wasn't much she can do about it because you were too young to stand up for yourself fully. So later in life, you notice that you are triggered into fear and trembling whenever you notice that a woman has been displeased by you. And you're wondering why is it that a woman being displeased or angry at me hurls me, triggers me into a big fear reaction. It doesn't happen with men, it only happens with women. You trace this back and you say, "Was there anything about the relationship with mother?" That was something like this. And of course you see right away what it's about. That's what I mean by taking the triggering event out of the hands of the one who triggered you and back into the originator of the trigger because all triggers have an origin. So now I see, this is the person speaking, that I first need to do work on all the leftover feelings that I had toward mother, half toward mother. And that's going to help me not be so triggered. Get to the point where I could say, "It's okay to displease women." One of the givens of life is sometimes I will displease women and the world doesn't fall apart because I did that. It simply leads to a better dialogue. If this woman does not want a dialogue but would rather just stay mad, I need to accept that and let go with love. That's how you work on that particular trigger of being displeased by women. And of course the whole thing could also be used for men. When I displease men I get very scared and you go back to how your father would hit you and you displeased him. So that's why I also suggest noticing which triggers happen over and over again and what's the particular theme that is coming through because that will help you because once you see the origin that will help you see where your own work is. Of course if our purpose is not ever to see what our own work is, I don't have any work I'm perfectly fine. The problem is all with her or him. If that's the approach that we're using then this book is completely useless. Well Dave, I love what you said earlier about if we make a commitment to do that work because making that commitment to me it sounds really challenging and also really freeing because I can't think of times when I feel less free than when I'm caught up in my trigger and blaming someone else. That's such an excellent point. I like that. So this is a form of liberation. Yeah. Yeah, I totally agree. It shows us how under the thumb of others we live our life. How we live our life under the thumb of others. By the way, another perfect example of triggering is authority. Like if I notice that I have problems with authority figures, I don't want to follow their regulations, I don't want to do what they say. I am continually rebellious. I mean, unless of course the authority figures are coming across with recommendations or demands that we consider in our own conscience to be unacceptable, no problem then we're supposed to speak up and speak truth to power. But if you just notice it across the board, my first grade teacher right down to my boss in adult life, I've always been feisty and rebellious toward them, then it's no longer about conscience. It's your triggered by authority and something happened in your first experience of having women set on you most likely by your parents that just didn't shake down in a way that's healthy. So it's time to take a look at that. you to see. describe how we can't really change our trigger reactions on a cerebral level. That's not really where the most important work is done. Why not? The, uh, from the point of view of neuroscience triggers operate in the limbic system. So, uh, it's useless to try to talk yourself out of triggers using your prefrontal cortex because that has gone offline once that amygdala, once that primitive place of fear and rage and so forth has been activated. And that's what a trigger does. It activates you in the more primitive part of your mind. So, that's why somebody trying to talk you out of it or you talking yourself out of it saying, "Oh, it's not that big a deal," is useless because that's not the part that's been spoken to or speaking and it doesn't even have words. So, um, the best way to do this kind of work is when everything is quieted down. It's hard to do when you're in the midst of being triggered. Right. You know, along those lines, you write about how sometimes our triggers are an inside job that we all carry an inner critic with us. And we trigger ourselves. We trigger ourselves. Yeah. So, if we get triggered internally, let's say, uh, our internal voice says, "Oh, you're such an idiot." You suggest that we not reply within opposing opinion. That we not say something like, "No, you're not. You're not an idiot. That's not true." What's a better alternative? And why do you recommend not just kind of countering that opinion? Well, first of all, it creates kind of a dualism and there's already a dualism operating when that inner critic is up on his time, like, trying to put you down. So, I'm recommending that you talk more recently or so we say nicely to your inner critic and try to convert him to Buddhism to the wise principles of loving kindness, short all, mindfulness, and how we do things and see things. And to respond that way instead of just trying to cancel what's said. Secondly, your mind won't even believe the cancellation. Inner critic will always say things. He's the trickster. He knows exactly where to to hit you, how to trigger you. And he always says something that feels like it is true. He doesn't come out of nowhere. I mean, it doesn't work that way. First of all, there is no inner critic. It's all your own mind, but we're just using that metaphor. Somewhere in your own mind, you think, I'm no good. I can't do it. I'm inadequate. I'm inferior. And so, the part of our mind that does not want to succeed will bring up those kinds of statements. And the part of our mind that does want to succeed has to respond in some way that shows that that statement is sometimes true. But it does not have to be true now. So it's not. So let's say the inner critic says, you're inadequate. And the usual recommendation is a firm that you are adequate. Say, no, I'm not inadequate. I'm adequate. I don't recommend that. That's not going to work. What I recommend is yes. There are times when I'm inadequate as are all humans. And this time, I'm choosing to be adequate and I can be. So that's your response. Wow. And what a shift. I mean, that's a, it feels like a very skilled martial arts move that didn't directly resist, but kind of used that momentum against the, I mean, I'm trying to avoid saying the word enemy, but maybe opponent. Yeah. And yeah, martial arts is like a, yeah, it's like a, where you turn the energy away from yourself back to the other person. But at the same time, you accept the part of it that does make sense. Yeah. Yeah. It feels completely disarming. Like a, like a very effective way to get out of that back and forth of your anatomy. No, I'm, no, I'm great. I'm an amazing person. Unless I'm, unless I'm a complete loser. And saying, you know, that, and, and also I like the, the choice they build into that too, that I'm choosing right now to be adequate. Yes. It's, it's yes and choice. Yes and choice. Yes, it's true. Sometimes I'm inadequate as are all people. And at this moment, I choose to be adequate. And I am capable of that. Here it goes. Here I watch. Here, here, I'm going to be adequate. Yeah. And that's such powerful learning to observe ourselves doing, doing exactly that. You know, as, as you and I are talking today, so you're in California, right? Yeah. And I'm in the Northeast of the United States in Pennsylvania. And it's March 23rd of 2020, as we're recording. And that's will probably come out in, probably in April. But we find ourselves at, at such a bizarre time, it seems to me, in situation with, you know, this ongoing coronavirus outbreak and, and the social distancing. And so as I was, you know, thinking about your work and, you know, some of the, the principles and, and techniques, it, it seems to me that I don't know if you think of it as, I don't know if you would think of it as a trigger exactly, but I know so many people on a really feeling overwhelmed with uncertainty and stress and fear and anxiety related to everything that's going on. And, and so I wondered if, if you and I could talk for a bit about applying some of the things we're talking about to those kinds of fears. Yes. First of all, the fear is totally legitimate. Yeah. And so having fears, not a bad sign, it's going to keep you on your toes so that you follow the proper hygiene and recommendations that are being made. And I was watching TV the other day. It was a press conference. And one of the reporters asked Vice President Pence, what do we do about all the fear, you know, that we're having regarding the coronavirus. And he gave what I thought was an excellent answer. He said, don't be afraid be vigilant. And if we could like bring our fear over into vigilance, like I am carefully following all the recommendations that they're making about being home, social distance, washing hands, you know, all the things they recommend, then I'm doing all I can do. And the rest is in the hands of powers beyond me. So, anyway, I see it that way. Yeah. Yeah, I like that. What do you recommend for when, and this is true for me at times, for sure, when I recognize that on the one hand, that I don't have, ultimate control over what happens, and I focus on doing what I can. And that's the biggest feature of the fear, let's not be fooled. The real fear is not about catching the virus. The real fear is something is happening now in this society that I have no control over. That's what you're really afraid of. So, when he says, "Don't be afraid," I mean, I'm interpreting now, I would have that mean, let go of the belief that you're in control, but the vigilance about following all the regulations, plus the distinction I would make. Yeah. Well, now, don't be fooled into thinking you're afraid of the virus. You're afraid of the virus because in this instance, it's the kind of virus that you can't be sure of, that is, can't be in control of. That's why it's scary. Yeah. So, how can we let go of that fear, or how can we be more willing to let go of control that's not ours? Because it seems like it's easy to kind of snatch it back, to try to hold onto it in some way, and be overwhelmed by anxiety. What helps me the most on that is my own other book, which is the five things we cannot change, in which I try to show how to say yes to the fact that we're not in control and to trust that our story will proceed and we will have the skill to handle whatever may happen. And the best prayer for that, of course, is the one used in the 12-step programs about, you know, the serenity to accept what you can't change, the courage to change what you can't change, and wisdom to know the difference. There can't be any knock-em-dead, surefire, promises that it's all going to work out. Isn't that kind of a world? The world in which sometimes things work out, and sometimes they don't work out, and all that matters is that I am open to whatever the reality is, and I'm doing my best with all the courage I can muster to handle it, and I'm letting go of the belief that I can control it. That would be the equivalent of a spiritual victory. Yeah, that would be a very big deal. And it is, I mean, times when I can reach that point of acceptance and a kind of surrender that, again, going back to liberation, holding on to control, it's not ours, is like living in a prison of fear. Yeah. You also note that the universality of fear is the most powerful remedy for fear. Can you describe what that means? The fact that we all feel it. Yeah. And of course, there's two kinds of fear. There's the healthy fear. Like, you hear your on a hike, and you hear a rattle. And you suddenly are triggered into fear. That's your healthy trigger, healthy fear, because now you're going to walk circumspectly, keeping your eye out for this rattle snake. And you're not going to bother him. He's not going to bother you. And everything is moving along. So that would be the healthy fear. Then the unhealthy fear is the phobia, the paranoia, you know, when it goes too far, and it's not really a serving you, because you wind up being unfree in your movements. So that's the person who, who, when you invite him or her to go on a hike with you in the state park, says, "I can't go because there might be a rattle snake." Well, now your fear has prevented you from healthy exercise, and good feeling and life in the world. That's the unhealthy fear. Most of the triggers are about, you know, ultimately inauthentic threats. Well, that's that example of being afraid of the possibility of snakes reminds me of you, you have a section in the book where you talk about how we can exercise compassion for loved one when they're triggered, and it seems irrational to us. Because our tendency, and I have certainly done this plenty of times myself, is to get annoyed at someone for being upset for, quote, unquote, "no reason." So any recommendations for how we can be more compassionate when a loved one's triggered reaction seems overblown? Well, once we start working on our own triggers, we're just automatically, hopefully, compassionate toward others who go through the same thing, and haven't been doing the exercises that help them get through the trigger experience. So that's how doing the work on your own could help you not to help you appreciate how others are feeling. And then, of course, we build compassion anyway when we see that there is no separate self or all linked on this planet with one another and with all beings. And, you know, that we learned from Buddhism. Well, what a nice thing to imagine that as we are working and addressing our own triggers, that that could have at least double benefit in terms of expanding our compassion for others and their triggers. Yes. And, by the way, the same principle of the link, how everything is linked and how all of us are interconnected. It's not only—you don't have to get that only from Buddhism. It's also in Christianity and the beautiful belief in the communion of saints, which refers to how all of us on earth are linked together on this journey toward the divine, and that those who have died are still helping us from the other side. And this is called the communion of saints, the communion of all those who are trying to help each other. It's an ancient belief, even in pagan times, it was believed that the ancient heroes in war and the athletes who won at the games that—who were now dead, that they were helping the participants in the games and the soldiers in battle. So, humans have always felt that we're not here alone, we're in what Martin Luther King called cosmic companionship. And that helps us be compassionate. And thank God for that. Well, Dave, as we're coming up on the end of our time together today, where can I send listeners who want to learn more about you and your work? Well, the book is called Triggers, and it's available at any bookstore or online. And my website, which has all my books and my talks, is davereko.com, D-A-V-E-R-I-C-H-O.com, like Dave Richie, show. And also on that I have some YouTube and yeah that would be a good place to check in for other things that I'm doing. Excellent. I will include those links in the show notes for this episode. But this is clearly meaningful work you're doing. I think managing our fears and yeah strengthening our relationships I think these things are more important now than ever. So Dr. David Rico thank you for talking with me today and for sharing your wisdom with our listeners. Thank you so much for inviting me. If you enjoyed this conversation please share it with someone you know who might find it helpful. It's one of the best ways you can support the podcast. I'd also be grateful if you could leave a rating or review on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen. I'd love to get your feedback. I release new episodes every Wednesday so if you subscribe you'll get the episodes as soon as they're available. If you'd like to become a supporting member please visit Sethkillahan.com/podcast-membership. Your support helps keep the Think Act B podcast ad free. And thank you for listening.