EP #84- The Paradox of Loneliness and Celebrating Innovation in the Alcohol-Free Space with Julia Bainbridge, James Beard Award-nominated Writer, Good Drinks Author

(gentle music) I learned a lot about the merits of loneliness through talking to people on the show. So we shouldn't be in this binary mode of trying to cure loneliness in order to be socially cemented to others, but it's necessary to go through these seasons of loneliness, these thresholds of deep loneliness even at crucial stages, 'cause otherwise we wouldn't change. And I would say that's true, from some of the examples on the show that loneliness kind of told people where to go after that. Welcome back to another episode of Every Day in Dorfens, a mental health podcast that discusses all the ways you can find joy, happiness, and endorphins in life. This is Stella Stéphanopoulos, your host, and this week I am thrilled to have Julia Bainbridge as a guest on the show. A few months ago, Julian and I sat down virtually to chat about her work in the non-alcohol space as a writer. She's the author of Good Drinks, which provides alcohol for recipes and celebrates all the innovation that's happening in the non-alcohol community. She's also a recipient of the Research Society on Alcoholisms Media Award. She was listed as one of Food and Wines magazine, 25 first-ever game changers for being a pivotal voice and normalizing not drinking alcohol. And she also is the host of a podcast called The Lonely Hour to explore social disconnection and other forms of loneliness. Julia is a force to reckon with. It was such an honor to get to speak with her on the podcast. And in this episode, we talk about the non-alcohol space, loneliness, connection, as it pertains to our health, our well-being, and finding those endorphins in life. Before I get into it, I have a brief message from my sponsor, Inker. And if you like what you hear, make sure to like, rate, and review this podcast wherever you listen to your shows. (gentle music) - Hi, Julia. Thank you so much for coming on to Everyday Endorphins. - Thank you for having me. - I am thrilled to have you here. You are, I think really a Renaissance woman. Like, you do it all. You publish the book. You're in grad school. You also have a podcast, which I know is no longer currently being produced, but you really do it all. So it's an honor for me to get to be with you virtually here today. And I'm so excited to get into this conversation on the non-alcohol space, on loneliness, on mental health. So again, just really thrilled to have you here. - Happy to be here. And thank you for being generous with how you categorize, how I've approached my professional life as Renaissance woman, because it also could be taken as just very befuddled and confused about what to do. (laughing) - Well, I think there's a lot to be said in that. Because as you do more things in your life, or as you progress throughout your career, and find different interests and different passions, I think they all kind of seamlessly weave together. When in retrospect, it makes sense, but while you're going through that process, maybe it feels like you're doing just a bunch of different things that don't necessarily connect, but when you look back on it, it's more apparent that it's all kind of part of your story, and it all makes sense. - 65-year-old me will report back on that. (laughing) - We'll check in that. - And we'll look at this. - I'd love to start off by talking about your book, Good Drinks. Can you share more about what inspired you to write Good Drinks? Where did that inspiration develop? And how you really got involved with the non-alcohol of space? - Yeah, I mean, I. - It started with my reckoning with my own relationship with alcohol, and then also being somebody who wrote about food, and these things coming together serendipitously in a way that was able to capitalize on what was happening. I mean, I think so better explain that. I first removed alcohol from my life. I guess this is around 2015, and I say first removed because it has not been a straight line, but I really started reckoning again with my relationship to alcohol around that time. And serendipitously, that was when something was happening. Like alcohol-free cocktails were starting to be taken more seriously. Our tenders were kind of pushing against the just unbalanced therapy juice, mucktail, quote unquote, right? Like the imagination of the drinks world was moving beyond the Shirley Temple. And for somebody who wrote about food and drinks, and so whose job required her to, in part, be dining out and picking up on what's going on in bars and restaurants, it was impossible not to notice, right? Like beverage menu real estate was being given the alcohol-free drinks. Those drinks were being given names, just like the cocktails were, which I think shows a level of care and intention. And it was exciting. Like I'm lucky that my alcohol used to sort her, which is how I came to stop drinking, didn't present in a way that made it hard for me to be in those spaces where alcohol was also present. I could really just enjoy this burgeoning part of the hospitality world. So the book, I almost struggle with saying I wrote it, like it really rests on the work of professional bartenders who were the ones really thinking about and developing these beverages. And I feel very lucky that they allowed me to capitalize, again, on that newfound energy and take a snapshot of what alcohol-free drinking was looking like around the country at that time by giving me their recipes. So I just sort of, it was a journalistic endeavor in a way. I got in my car drove across the country a couple times. I really wanted to cast a wide net and meet with people on the ground. Of course, interesting stuff was going on in New York in LA, but I mean, there's talent everywhere. And I wanted to taste it. And so that's how the book was put together. So I put together the book. I don't know if I wrote it. That's incredible. Can you share more about if someone has good drinks in their apartment? If you were to open good drinks, what can you expect to find in the book? So you can find what you won't find. Maybe it was a bad way to try to sell it, but you won't find a book that shows you how to use a lot of the products that are on market right now, because the manuscript for the book was filed at a time when Seedlip was really the only product that was accessible here in the States. The UK, other areas of the world, are a little bit ahead of us in this realm. So what you will find are recipes for people who like to cook and like to tinker and like to roll their sleeves up and sort of put work into their drinks, which I think is appropriate. These are proper drinks. And it requires proper steps to get there. But otherwise, I mean, you'll find a range. I walk you through not only difficulty level so that you can maybe pick something that's level two on a Tuesday when you don't want to do what I just said in terms of rolling your sleeves up and steeping a bunch of different citrus peels and tea for hours to get some kind of DIY base spirit that you then mix with something else. And also just a range of flavors, a range of styles, it's really meant to allow you to start with your mood and what you're craving. And you can find that in the book. It's nice that there's a variety of different types of drinks you can choose from. And you can choose the difficulty level, depending on how elaborate you want to get with crafting this non-alcoholic cocktail. And to speak more about the non-alcohol space, I personally find it to be really fascinating. I've had former guests on the show that are in the non-alcoholic space, Lily Geiger from Philia. We did an event, I'm at Spirit It Away here in New York, a tasting of Philia and a live interview. And it was really incredible to get to have people come together to talk about the sober, curious community. It's something that I'm still learning a lot more about, really this distinction between the alcohol space versus the non-alcohol space. And I've seen a lot in the media around low-no alcohol. And I think that's a way to try to infuse the two. But do you see the alcohol versus the non-alcohol industry as being mutually exclusive or is there an opportunity for those two to overlap and have some sort of synergies and intersections? The ability to have a non-alcohol versus an alcoholic cocktail in the same room in the same social setting. This is complicated. I think there is a place for, say, alcohol-free bars because there are certainly people who are triggered in environments where alcohol's present. And those spaces should exist. Or I'm glad they do, I don't know about should, but I'm glad that people like Laura Lai from Listen Bar and others are creating those spaces. But look, of course, there's room for overlap. I think my particular stance, again, because I'm lucky to be comfortable in those spaces, even though I'm someone who has not called used disorder is not really to segregate drinkers and non-drinkers. If I were going to agitate for something, it's for better options at existing bars and restaurants. But yeah, I mean, there's certainly room for overlap. I think plenty of people are interested in moderation, whether or not they have complicated relationships with alcohol. And then there are others who don't struggle with alcohol used disorders who have removed alcohol their lives completely, even if it's just for a little while, like a dry month, for example. And yet, they're still interested in good drinks and in what's happening in the culinary world. And this is certainly something that's happening, as you know, because you've talked to people who are in it. I will get on my soapbox a little here and say, I do think we should be careful not to lump together the sober curious and those in recovery. One day, I hope the distinction will not matter. You know, perhaps the paradigm will shift to the point that this isn't a thing. Drink, don't drink, whatever, like no need for a label or a dedicated dry month. But while I appreciate that some people are choosing a sober lifestyle, I think it's still important to remember that sobriety has likely been painful for those with substance use disorders. You know, they make a hard decision every day to stay the course. They usually have to engage in multiple forms of treatment. I mean, we can get into that. I mean, I believe in the biopsychosocial model of addiction, right? So you have to kind of address all those areas. It's a lot of work is the point. And as long as we have a stigma around substance use disorders, which I don't think you can argue we don't still even though things are definitely improving, I think we have to acknowledge that sobriety has been hard one for many people. And, you know, I just think we should be a little careful. I don't know if that was actually exactly your question, but that's what comes up for me. And certainly, as I see this conversation swelling and people entering the market in terms of creating products, this is maybe a little shady, but I think we should be more careful about co-opting the language used in the recovery community in order to sell alcohol free products. I mean, that's a great answer. And a perspective that I don't think I actually have given a lot of thought about. So I appreciate hearing that. You'd mentioned this term, the biopsychosocial model of addiction. Can you talk a little bit more about that and perhaps maybe your own experience with going through recovery with, you know, substance, is it substance abuse disorder or substance use disorder? Yeah, and some people say substance abuse. I mean, some people also, by the way, who, you know, have severe alcohol use disorder, very much identify as alcoholics, and that label helps them. But I do think I know kind of the field is moving away from that term because there is some stigma around it. It can be perceived as a very black and white thing, when in fact, that's not how alcohol use disorder works. There's a spectrum. If you look in the DSM, right, like our big book of mental disorders, it is actually a spectrum that is, you know, what science believes. And I just think people think alcoholic or not, right? Like, get up, shaky, and needing to drink in the morning before work. And if it's not that, then I'm fine. But problematic drinking looks a lot of different ways, you know? Yes, yes, it's not necessarily this black or white picture of what it looks like to be engaging with alcohol in an unhealthy way. It can, similar to, I would say, honestly, eating disorders, you know, they, you don't have to look a certain way to have a eating disorder and having, having an eating disorder doesn't look the same for everyone. So I think it's a similar pair. Yes. And I think, you know, this is a little, I'll get back to your question about psychosocial, but I do think this is interesting. My feeling is that like, it's not unusual to develop some kind of drinking problem, like at least for a little while. I mean, alcohol is a drug. It is a highly addictive substance. So I think looked at that way, even alcohol use disorder could be thought of as unremarkable, right? Like it's painful, but not rare. And I'm looking the, yeah, the fifth and most current DSM, it defines alcohol use disorder as having mild moderate and severe classification. So anyone who meets any two out of 11 criteria during the same 12-month period would receive a diagnosis of alcohol use disorder and then it severity depends on the number of criteria met from there. But examples of those criteria had times when you ended up drinking more or longer than you needed. More than once gotten into situations while or after drinking that increased your chances of getting hurt, driving swimming, using machinery on safe sex, had to drink much more than you once did to get the effect you want or found that your usual number of drinks had much less effect than before. I mean, I'd venture to say that many people who consume alcohol regularly have experienced one of these as a result. And maybe even other more subtle negative consequences, such as difficulty sleeping. I'm not saying that that means they suffer from alcohol use disorder, right? The threshold is two of those criteria. But my point is that at least some of us have had a brush with the destructive side of alcohol. Hopefully that's useful. Absolutely. I mean, it's true because when you think about even like American college culture, it's binge drinking. It's binge drinking. And you could argue honestly that there's a lot of high functioning not to use the term alcoholic slightly, but a lot of functioning alcoholics in college where you're constantly drinking Thursday, Friday, Saturday night, maybe even more. I mean, it's horrible and it's in that environment, it's considered okay. It's considered the norm. But when you remove yourself from that and you graduate college and you recognize, oh, my drinking habits are actually not healthy. Like it's not sustainable and it's really not good for you. I think there, yeah, there's a lot to be said just around being reflective on how you actually engage with alcohol. Yeah, so that cultural piece you're talking about would be like the social part of this model, right? So this multi-dimensional phenomenon in which like biologic, psychological and sociocultural factors interact to produce illness is sort of maybe a derivative way to talk about or maybe a reductive way to talk about it. But like that's generally what the bio psychosocial model is about. And that model for many illnesses or that way, but we're talking about alcohol use disorder in this context. And it's interesting you bring up campus culture, you know, I mean, I think people, especially recently have, you know, I think Malcolm Gladwell's a polarizing, you know, figure, but in one of his recent books, exam in the Brock Turner case and, you know, just campus sexual assaults and alcohol, the culture of, you know, heavy drinking, binge drinking, and the intersection there. And something that I maybe just haven't done my due diligence to find, but I feel like, I don't know, without getting too heavy, like something I feel like is missing from the conversation about maybe sober curiosity is me too. And that that pushed a lot of people into waking up and looking at their behavior. And I don't think it would be surprising to, you know, acknowledge that alcohol is often present, you know, or some form of intoxicant is often present where sexual assault happens too. And yeah, I'm a little trepidacious about like getting into this topic in a big way, but thinking about behavior on campus just sparked something in me. Yeah, absolutely. And there's no doubt that there is absolutely a relationship between the two. And because more often than not, every single sexual assault case or instance usually involves alcohol. So, of course, there is some sort of relationship there. And we don't necessarily need to touch on that, but I'm glad that you bring it up because I don't think it should be something that's overlooked. Going back more to engaging with alcohol, maybe in a healthier way, you were interviewed in Gloria magazine. And in that interview, you shared that you're not anti alcohol. And that alcohol can actually trigger the endorphin system that lowers anxiety. And that that quote stuck out to me, obviously, because the show is about endorphins. And so it was interesting to hear that there are some effects that alcohol can produce in your body that actually can create at least some sort of level of happiness. Maybe that's, you know, through the act of lowering your anxiety levels. So, can you talk maybe a little bit more about this and offer advice for how we can engage with alcohol in a healthy way? Like, if you don't suffer from alcohol use disorder and you prefer to drink, but you want to engage with the substance in a healthier way, what are some ways that we can do so? So, those are good questions. I feel like there's going to be the bulk of our conversation. I have a lot to say about it, which is, I guess, the second part of your question, I'll address first, and I'll address it by saying, like, I won't really answer it. I mean, I think, but I'll explain why. I mean, I think I won't offer advice for how to engage with alcohol in a healthy way, because I'm not a scientist and I'm not a medical professional. nor am I someone who works in the recovery field. Also, I imagine there's room for different definitions of what is healthy. Sure, there are reports like what was it earlier this year. Global burden of diseases, a study, I think, that showed that no amount of alcohol is safe. Despite the health guidelines in many places espousing benefits associated with consuming up to two drinks a day. But I don't know. There are plenty of intoxicants we consume that physically harm us slightly that are poisonous to our systems essentially, but that are not fatal when managed. I think alcohol in particular is deeply tied to our culture and history. So, so I those are the reasons I'm not exactly anti alcohol. I think, you know, this is maybe more than you asked for around one piece of this question. But I just as far as the guidance thing, I don't feel comfortable, you know, offering advice for how other people can engage with alcohol in a healthy way when I'm not steeped in that topic as a professional. I think, you know, another soapbox I'll step on for a moment is that like, there are way too many people offering their opinions out there way too many people acting as coaches when they have no training way too many people on Instagram who believe they have some kind of guidance to give and I find it irresponsible at best and potentially quite dangerous. I think for those who came to sobriety because of a struggle without alcohol use disorder, again, achieving and maintaining their sobriety is certainly commendable. It takes a lot of hard work, but that doesn't make you an expert on treatment. And, you know, is there some wisdom gained in one person's personal recovery process that might be useful for others? Sure. But, you know, building a business around it or giving my two cents about it on a podcast that's meant to go out for public consumption, that's tricky. So, I hope you're not disappointed. I'm not. I think that's a great answer, actually. And I really like the point that you brought up around. There's too many people on Instagram on social media that are claiming to be experts about certain fields that they potentially don't really have that expertise in. And I agree, I think it can be quite dangerous when these claims or pieces of advice or offerings are not really grounded in studies or actual fact. So, it can be a bit tricky. Yeah, I mean, it's very easy to make yourself look like an expert if you want to by using, you know, the right imagery and hashtags and buzzwords and whatever else it is. There are certainly people out there who are legitimate and have training. And so, I don't want to be completely shady. But I guess my work has been to track and celebrate innovation in the realm of alcohol free drinks. And yes, to normalize this kind of drinking, I have here and there written about renegotiating one's relationship to alcohol. But that's all based on reporting and speaking to people who are experts, which, you know, I guess brings me to the other part of your question. And I'm very interested to know what you know about, you know, alcohol and endorphins, if anything. But what I know about how alcohol operates based on the science is that drinking alcohol leads to endorphin release in those reward centers of the brain, like areas that feel that produce feelings of pleasure. And that can lead to lower anxiety. And ultimately, this is why I think we talk about alcohol as a social aid, right? Or as social lubricants. Some people say. But it helps us let our hair down, so to speak. And as we were talking about earlier, maybe way too much. But when I spoke to Dr. George Coobe, who's the director of the NIA, the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism, which, you know, it's interesting. They have alcoholism in their title and they are thinking about changing that. They've certainly moved away from using the word alcoholic and a lot of their literature. And it's a little tricky when you already have a well-known acronym or title of your whole department. Right. At this point, like rebranding my paper. A bit tricky. I spoke to him last year. And the way he put it was that alcohol is a great emotional pain reliever in the moment. Right. Like people drink to loosen up and relax after work. And alcohol does that. For some of the reasons I mentioned earlier and I'm sure many, you know, others. The problem is that you remember that proximal reinforcement. Like you don't remember the hangover later. And so you can keep turning to alcohol to give you those rewards without remembering the negative consequences that also come from drinking. In terms of that anti alcohol, you know, my stance is like for those people who have a healthy relationship with it, enjoy. Like we just we we cannot forget that alcohol is also a highly addictive substance and not everyone can manage it. And I. I am all about the popularity of dry January and sober October and other, you know, dry months. I do think the argument could be made that it shows just how difficult it is to consume alcohol in a healthy way. And with ease on a regular basis, as we talked about before, but with the DSM like it's not abnormal to develop some kind of drinking problem. And I think that's perhaps why dry January, you know, is such a welcome is so popular right is such a welcome pause. What you would mention from interviewing that doctor speaking to the director of the NIA, about alcohol giving into like the immediate gratification. Like you if you have that immediate feeling of lowering your anxiety levels, getting in those endorphins, feeling a bit more at ease. Happier that sense of you know it being a social lubricant. I think that's where the danger comes in because as it's our human nature to to gravitate towards like the quick fix the easy solution. And that it's really like the hard work is the delayed gratification, but that really I believe that's where true fulfillment and happiness enjoy comes in. And so I think like without call for example, where gets to be tricky is if you're constantly looking towards the substance as a social lubricant like, oh, I need a drink to have a conversation with this person to go up and speak to this person in a social setting. And I think it stems from maybe like a lot of social anxiety and when you get to the core of it like those are the issues or you know the areas that you want to address to give you that sense of delayed gratification later on like if you can engage in a social situation without feeling the need to gravitate towards a substance. And that is going to set you you know better off in the long term because you're not giving into those quick fixes and I think you know abstracting away from alcohol it's just a principle of life that I tried to I tried to reflected my own belief system and in my own practices around not necessarily taking like the easy path but going through a bit more of like the challenging instances to get that sense of delayed gratification. Yeah, I mean that's part of the hard work of recovery too right that's the social piece like alcohol is everywhere it's so normalized in our culture. And so it takes a lot of work to find new ways of sure taking care of yourself of feeling pleasure but also of feeling comfortable if you're someone who deals with social anxiety and social situations right. But yeah, I'm certainly not saying that alcohol you know should be used as medicine to help you be social when you're not but I'm just acknowledging what the what the actual substance does do for people in their brains and and so why over time it's it is so connected to social life. Exactly and I think understanding more of like the science behind it like the way it affects you biologically and in your brain is something that people can kind of hold on to it's it's something a bit more tangible to hold on to and doctor Hubertman he's a he's a researcher and at Stanford and he's why no we need to be to other I'm obsessed with him and he is a drink has really interesting personal story. Do you know his personal background? No, I don't actually I follow along his podcast but I don't know his personal story. Oh, he came to this late he was like I'm not going to spoil it for you or any of your listeners else you know but but look into his his story he's been on some podcasts talking about his life growing up and how he ultimately came to science but it's a very unconventional path. Well, I have my my research to do clearly but I do love his podcast and he had recently posted something on Instagram about really like the negative effects of alcohol and I think this post went viral because I saw it like across my entire Instagram stories and my feeds and it was kind of along the lines of of alcohol being like the one drug that if you don't do it people are like wait why why aren't you drinking. And he was also just talking really about like the negative effects of alcohol so I thought that was interesting and just also very timely too because it was a post I had seen recently and I think an episode he had recently produced for a show. Yeah, I've heard that line a lot I think the first time I heard it was Holly Whitaker. But like that alcohol is the only drug you have to justify not taking exactly yes yeah perfectly powerful way to drive it home yeah switching gears a little bit but still very interrelated you also have a podcast on loneliness called the lonely hour and. I find it to be really interesting. I was listening a bit earlier this morning about the episodes that you've produced and the goal with the show to make loneliness a bit less taboo. So can you share a little bit more about how you started with producing the lonely hour and really what you aim to share with your listeners? - Yeah, I mean, I certainly don't believe I single-handedly through my small podcast can make (laughs) loneliness less taboo. And it may, you know, but that was driving, you know, the mission and it's interesting, well, maybe I'll get into this later, but I do think we're more comfortable with using that word now that we've all been through this experience of COVID in a way that we certainly weren't before. And there are reasons for why we, you know, there are reasons why are deep into our, you know, just humans forever, the way we have survived is impacts. I think, you know, there are reasons people who are smarter than I have studied for why loneliness is taboo, but I also think it's, it's part of the human condition, you know, I think. So this paradox of, you know, loneliness is endemic to being human and yet it's taboo in our culture. So I, I was 2016 I launched the show, it was called the Lonely Hour and yeah, it was a mission to desigmatiase loneliness. And that also partly just came out of yes, what I was observing in culture at large from the, you know, writings of a lot of people who are, who study culture and, you know, philosophers like Alan de Bauton, who had been thinking about this for decades before. I grew interested in it, but I just think I had never heard a friend use that word. That's pretty profound that, you know, the first time, so this is before I launched the podcast, but it's part of the fodder, right? It's sort of like led me towards wanting to launch it. And I guess endeavor to try to desigmatiase it, but I remember, I think I was 30, you know, I'd lived 30 years of life until a friend in New York got a dog, like a tiny toy dog. And it was so not her style. And also, I just like, it was perplexed by this move because she also just wasn't really an animal person, didn't grow up that way. And so, you know, I met the dog, we had a lovely little time in the park, and then at one point I said, so, so like, why did you get a dog? And she just turned to me and said, Julia, I'm just so lonely. And it hit like a ton of bricks because we maybe use all kinds of other words to try to talk about when we're feeling depressed or down or isolated, but no one had ever really just thrown the dart right in the center of the board that way. To use very mixed metaphors. So, yeah, I think that was part of what was knocking in my brain along with all kinds of other things. But I, yeah, I was like, you know, could I show how normal, entirely normal loneliness is through storytelling? Can I also, you know, can it be joyful? Can there be humor in the mix as well? This is how life is. That's what's true to life. And it turned out, you know, yes, there could. And I think it was really important to me to keep loneliness outside of the problem box. You know, I can't count on two hands, the number of journalists who reached out to me asking for tips for combating loneliness. They clearly did not listen to the show. I think, you know, and I get it. Like we're part of a problem solving oriented culture. Those journalists wanted my help figuring out how to fix loneliness, but I cannot do that. And I will not try. So, you know, I also should point out that I'm referring to in every day kind of loneliness, if you will, I think acceptance of that loneliness as a part of the human experience does not mean that chronic loneliness, which I'm, you know, still understanding, is an issue or that fraying social bonds don't need attention. And that's part of the reason why the project is no more or is at least on pause, the mission is sort of undergoing a change. - Yeah, I mean, that's exciting because also COVID, I'm sure shifted a lot around the conversation or around loneliness. And I think it's important. I think you were also getting that this, like addressing the distinction between like isolation and social isolation versus like that everyday loneliness that you describe. And really the paradox here for me at least is loneliness is like you mentioned part of the human condition. It's something that everyone experiences. But at the same time, there's research that shows that loneliness or at least maybe chronic loneliness is a driver for anxiety and depression and can really make you feel unhappy yet it is just part of our human experience. And something that I've noticed in particular amongst people my age, like young adults, people in their 20s in particular, especially living in New York City, is how difficult it is to be alone with themselves. Like no one wants to just be alone with themselves at this age. Like I find that a lot of people experience difficulty with just being alone. And it's difficult because sometimes I even have these challenges too. Like I personally love spending time alone. Like I'm an only child, so I kind of just grew up in that environment where it was just myself and my parents. - Oh, how to do it. - Yeah. (laughs) - You know how to do it. And I do love my me time and I love just having a day for myself. But then I also notice that sometimes I'm kind of on social overdrive. And then the minute I'm like, I don't have a plan. I have this feeling of loneliness that sinks into me and it's really difficult to get out of. So I think even for myself, it's something I still can struggle with sometimes is finding, navigating that. But I'm curious to hear your perspective. Why is it an age thing or is it a generational thing? Like why is it so hard for 20-something-year-olds, particularly in New York, to not feel lonely? - Thank you for sharing that. I have a lot of thoughts about it and they're all still forming. And I'll just, I'll throw a lot at you that I've learned and we'll see how it lands. (laughs) Does that sound good? - That's perfect. I think it's more of a dialogue here because maybe there was less of a specific question I had, but more so just in the nature of kind of my experience and what I've seen my peers and friends also struggle with. - For sure, and that was part of, you know, when we talk about, I think I don't know how you put it, but sort of like getting out of that loneliness, right? I, something, you know, or squashing it when you're feeling it, right? Like it's something we don't want to sit in. I think it would do us well. And we're talking about loneliness here, not a lone time or solitude and we'll get into that. But when I'm talking about loneliness, which is the feeling you describe, right, which is this sad feeling, not wanting to be alone when you are. I learned a lot about the merits of loneliness through talking to people on the show. One of the most profound guests, David White, who's a poet and philosopher, talks about loneliness as a doorway. He says, you know, quite often a difficult and vulnerable doorway, the one you don't want to go through, but, but, you know, he thinks of loneliness in this kind of seasonal way, like it's going to come into your life at times and that, it's a kind of clearing of the space. It brings us down to this foundational understanding of what we want, right? I think he would say, you know, try to see it as a foundation for understanding yourself and then from stepping off of that. So we shouldn't be in this binary mode of trying to cure loneliness in order to be socially cemented to others, but it's necessary to go through these seasons of loneliness, these thresholds of deep loneliness even at crucial stages, you know, because otherwise we wouldn't change. And I would say that's true, you know, from some of the examples on the show that that loneliness kind of told people where to go after that. That doesn't mean like wallowing in it. And I'm just saying, maybe we, it can help us learn to embrace it a little more when it arrives. - Yeah. - Will, it will. - I think there's a difference also between wallowing and something and embracing it. When you wallow, I think it's the, it's the self-pity. It's the victim mindset. That's, that can be quite dangerous. When you, you get into those negative thought patterns because you can then start to have these like self-prepetuating ideas about yourself that just can kind of keep you going down that rabbit hole even deeper. But rather than like wallowing in that loneliness, you can, you can make something a bit more productive out of it and recognize that these feelings do ebb and flow. Like as is life, there are great, there are good moments and there are less good moments. Not necessarily bad, but just not as elevated as your happiest self in a specific time. And it's recognizing that it is kind of like this necessary step to achieving the next thing. I mean, when I think about my own experiences with loneliness, the times that I felt most lonely, few months later, like greatness emerges. It's kind of like the phoenix, like metaphor. And so I think there's a lot of beauty in that. But it can be difficult to recognize that when you are in like the depths of loneliness. So from the guests that you've had on your show or from your own experiences, what can someone do to have a more positive forward-looking mindset to help them move through that experience? Well, very few, it's hard. And I think, you know, David is able to talk about things this way because he's seasoned in terms of just his life, right? He's older. He's lived more of it. And I think you just, with more time and more observation of your life, you're able to kind of maybe recognize that loneliness when it's coming in and sort of deal with it differently than you might have otherwise. I also want to address what you were talking about about like your age group and loneliness. I think like, you know, you're certainly, I mean, one thing I think of is like all the stimuli we have, the content coming at us, social media, you know, there's a lot of work that's been done on this, a lot of work that will continue to be done on this. But I, you know, it's understandable that given how much we're inputting all the time, we get uncomfortable when we don't have it, which is unfortunate because boredom is important to creativity. And I would point you towards Manusha Marodi, who's done a lot of great work on that. But so maybe we can embrace boredom too, which yeah. But, you know, even before the pandemic arrived and certainly, you know, and I'll talk about the pandemic in a sec, but like, you know, more and more people around me in the years leading up to the show were joining the economy of freelancers, right? And gig workers were certainly seeing that now with the not so quiet quitting. I guess the great resignation, people leaving, so it's, you know, then hard to sort of work on your own and get used to that. So, you know, there's that more people living alone than ever before in human history. Arbiters of meaning changing, you know, union, church, club memberships, all on decline. What's replacing them? Like, we are hardwired to be social and to, you know, get a sense of meaning through how we function as part of a community and a larger organism. So, we have a lot of geographic mobility, cool, but I think we really learn, yearn, for that community and for a sense, a daily sense of mattering to other people. I think we belong to little today is maybe the point and that's dangerous. I think, again, for humans who are really wired for connection. And I think without getting too political, I mean, I think in the US we're seeing, you know, just how dangerous it can be. I think a unit with our extreme political polarization and I don't want to get too political and potentially alienate any of your conservative listeners if they exist. But, you know, I think it could be argued that loneliness was one of the factors that gave us a Trump presidency. You know, writer, I think, Hannah Rant would say that loneliness is the defining condition of totalitarianism. So, I digress. You know, then, so we talked about what was happening leading up to 2016 during which time you were at what in college or, you know, you were young. I was in high school. Okay. So that's all part of what you're feeling, right? Your generation is feeling, I'm sure. And then, because, so, because, SIGNA, BBC, Kaiser, they all published revealing loneliness studies. This was a year in to my making the show. So 2017, I'm not saying there's any connection there tonight. Anything to do, obviously, this study took a very long time to put together, but clearly they was perfect timing. Yeah, people are also taking note of what was happening culturally and dug in deeper and then at that time came out with some of the results of that study. And, you know, I am concerned about the ways in which COVID might worsen what Vivek Murthy, our surgeon general, refers to as the social recession. And he's certainly in 2017 also called it loneliness and epidemic. So yeah, what we're facing now, and, you know, on top of all of that, right, like we are in a global pandemic that forces us into isolation. So this is certainly not the everyday kind of loneliness I said to examine on the show. So, you know, and I think the show the way I used to make it still has value, but there are more urgent concerns. And then in my first year of school, I was serving for smigrants, right? So refugees, asylum survivors, who've human trafficking. So that unmooring, you know, that, that, against their will, leaving, you know, off their homes and the trauma they're carrying is a whole other thing too, right? The loneliness that I saw a lot of newcomers to this country who, you know, especially in New York City, can you imagine? I mean, can you imagine like coming here, not speaking the language, trying to ride the subway, all of it is just so isolating as you see everybody else moving around you swiftly and quickly. So I don't know, I thought I'd tell over the place, but those are some things that are coming up coming up. I think, yeah, I don't know, what are your thoughts on all that as I throw them there? No, I, it's, it's a lot and I mean, clearly, you've done the podcast for so long. And I know I take all the place. You're taking a break right now at the podcast, but it's just really amazing to hear how much you've taken away through the episodes that you've done, you know, through your own examination of like this cultural understanding of loneliness and then also maybe your own experience and looking at how certain factors like the election for example, and then also, you know, moving into 2020 with COVID has shifted the way in which we engage with loneliness. And, you know, I, I think this is something that I would even challenge my listeners to take a more critical eye towards because like I mentioned earlier, a lot of my listeners, my audience is primarily young adults, people in their 20s, mid 20s, late 20s. And it's, it's such an interesting time because so much is happening. And I think like the beginning of this, of this time is, is very challenging because it's like the initial transition, like graduating from school. Someone once told me that, and I love this, um, this saying, but the minute you that you graduate college, you're living life in like three dimension, you could go any which way you choose. There's no more predefined milestones that you need to hit. You can really create that path. And so I think the uncertainty can be very difficult. Um, the moving to a different city, learning how to make friends, you know, without necessarily having a lot of common ground between other people. Um, you know, there's a lot of change in transition. And I think when you're moving through times that are highly transitional and, and filled with a lot of change, there, I'm sure there is like some sort of relationship with loneliness, like experiencing loneliness when you're ebbing and throwing through times of uncertainty. And so, you know, I would challenge my listeners to and change, you know, part of why change can be so hard is you're unwinding yourself from a familiar routine and a routine that might have made you feel connected to something, um, and trying to establish a new one. Exactly. And I think it's really about giving yourself the grace to recognize how you feel, but not let that fully like encompass you, not let that be your everyday experience. Um, yeah, because it's, it's, it can be difficult like we talked about earlier when you kind of fall into that rabbit hole. Um, and like you mentioned also, you know, we're inherently social beings. We, have this desire, this longing to be connected. So perhaps maybe a healthier mindset to adopt or rather a mindset to adopt that could help embrace this feeling of loneliness is recognize that it is like a collective feeling. It's a universal feeling. So you can lean into that and know that you're not alone in that experience. Yeah, we are alone together. Yeah, I think, you know, something that I'll, I'll, I guess I want to go back for a second to explain why my thoughts are all over the place. I will say that like, um, that I think because I attach myself to this topic of loneliness and at least before the pandemic hit, you know, if you Google like lonely, low people who were doing work on loneliness, like they're not that many, I mean, many of them are in the academic field. And then there's like me who, you know, if a journalist who saw the sigma loneliness report wants to find someone who will give good quote on the topic. They're like, oh, she's in media. She knows how to speak. She knows how to give good quote. She's into loneliness. Let's go for her, right? And I'm lucky that there was, you know, attention around me in the show that, but that's, you know, ultimately led to people being interested in a book. And I was like, yo, I'm not an expert. Like I am a student along with my listeners, along with the guests who come on my show. And I certainly don't have enough thoughts to fill hundreds of pages. I do think with this degree that I'm pursuing now and some years of practice that there could be. I am interested in this topic. I think we're only going to continue to kind of feel the form of isolation and loneliness that I do think is problematic and not the one that is. I think it's just part of the human experience for some time. And so I'm wondering in the short term, how can I help individuals better manage that through therapy, but maybe in the long term there is some work to do on it when I am an expert in decades. And so some of those many thoughts were coming from my toying around and doing some research and starting to pull together various threads and think about what would that work be ultimately. But I guess I mean a good way maybe to kind of transition out and and a good nugget from again David White who I think is just like my intellectual idol at this point is being alone is simply a state. Right. Like that's an objective state about how many people you have around you at a given time loneliness is a feeling. And I would describe it in some of the ways we have already right I think a sense of being on board unanchored not belonging. And I think the worry that you're not going to be seen by anyone in the way you want to is bound up in there. But you can feel lonely when you're alone and you can also feel lonely when you're surrounded by people you know proximity as you know from. Living in the you are all your life right I think that the loneliness that you can feel when you're surrounded by other people is actually more isolating at times than the lonely the loneliness that you feel when you are actually physically alone. It's funny when I asked people in the first season of the show when it was a bit of a different format. It changed as my thoughts on all this you got more sophisticated. And I used to have a series of questions I would ask everyone and one of those was when was the loneliness you felt in your life. And the examples people gave me were all times when they were around other people. And that's just a thread that I saw after reflecting on them. Which is profound. It is I think because in theory you wouldn't think that you're feeling lonely when you're around other people people are meant to bring you happiness and then foster that social connection and bond. But if you do recognize that you are feeling lonely around a specific individual or in a specific social setting. That's that's really powerful to take note of because I think often it it lends itself towards. Probably something deeper that's not being addressed. And I know that right now you're in grad school. So. And I believe you're you're in your second year of grad school. I'm in social work school on the clinical track. So so yes ultimately will be a psychotherapist. And I think that's just an incredible like next step in your career path because. It bridges together all of your passions like from what we talked about earlier in this interview the non alcoholic space. Now transitioning into loneliness. Culturally what you know impacts our feelings of loneliness and if I think becoming a psychotherapist is such an amazing way to give back to people to bring all of your learnings together and help others feel empowered to. And I think that's the biggest version of their lives that they can like the healthiest and the happiest version of of the lives that they can. And so I think it's very inspiring and just very excited for you in the next adventure of yours. Thanks. I mean I do believe loneliness is at the root of of you know so so much. That ails us you know I think. And I think that's depression obviously there are many other things in the mix there but that's something that's really echoing again Vivek Murphy who is our former and current surgeon general but who who in the time between those two stints. And so I think that's really a great way to get together I mean coming away from his first like tour as surgeon general he was like well the thing the thread I see among all the people I was privileged to talk to all over the country about what else them is loneliness. And that is going to be the focus of a lot of his work ongoing and so I'm just maybe I'm just a Vivek Murphy hype girl and I'm doing that way. I think maybe a way to underscore the pleasure of solitude right which is which is I think you know loneliness as we've been talking about I would say is like a is is negative right it's a sad feeling it has to do with perception right because you can feel lonely around other people like we said the perception that you know your your social relationships are inadequate in light of your preferences right so. And to define solitude is something more positive it's something we seek right does that feel right to you yes and there's this I'm sure you're familiar with the book man search for meaning by Victor Frankle he talks a lot about the importance of solitude and it's something I've given a lot of thought to over the past few years so I would agree that solitude is like a good good thing it's it's it's something that is actually productive and can also help. Deep in your relationship to yourself which is incredibly important yeah I mean not that not that you know anything good has to be productive but but. Yeah I mean I think I there's a pleasure I think in solitude or me at least and that's found in fostering my relationship with myself with great books with nature with the things in my home sometimes and I think there's another nugget and if I was going to leave on any. Note it would be this one I'm just I'm just regurgitating a lot of David white thoughts here but I think that's another thing he taught me this addresses some of the difficulties we have today and also and how to take more pleasure in solitude both so he was saying you know I think I think one of the difficulties of today is that we put all our eggs in one basket in that you know we try to hold the conversation he talks about the conversational nature of reality all the time you know so it's you know we feel connected when we feel connected to other humans right so it's so. It's right so it's about this this conversation through human forms and yet you know throughout our evolution as human beings we've we've always held this conversation with a multiplicity of qualities like the blue and the sky or the red and the sunset in the evening right or the movement of leaves he said at the very top of a silent wood he is a poet we have to remember. So he's coming through so you know his point is it's he found it kind of strange that we've defined the fact that we're you know that we say we're alone when we're just not in conversation with another human being he'd say you're not alone actually you're just not paying attention to all of these other sort of friendships and relationships that could be engaged in all around you so. I think he would say one of the reasons we've gotten lonely today is we forgotten we can have those friendships and he talked about it was like I was in New York in the spring I was in Central Park it was that first day when spring really showed itself right and you you know I guess anywhere we see you know people emerge right like New York and had terrible weather suddenly that first day of beautiful spring and hundreds of people. You know just like streaming into the park and they were just brought alive by that first day it was a Sunday so you know they could take time but you know he was like you could see this happening you could see this seeking for another form of friendship you know the sky the smell of the blossoms in the park how your body feels in the sun so you know he'd say we do well to reestablish these friendships. I think that's a great quote and excerpt to land on and definitely gives me something to think about and also is very related to the final question that I have for you it's a question that I ask every guest that comes on to the show very thematic with everyday endorphins finding joy and the pleasures and the small things in life so my question to you Julia is what is something that brings you a bit of endorphins every day. I think that's coming to mind is not as poetic as actually what David was talking about sex like I I feel really grateful that sex is not difficult for me I mean you have to remember I'm in I'm in social work school I'm I'm thinking a lot about trauma and you know unfortunately. You know I'm just seeing a lot of what people go through you know I think for me look you know there are so many barriers like to accessing that pleasure especially for women maybe even especially for women who grow up at a certain time I feel really lucky that I have an experience trauma in that area and that this this kind of play I mean how much do we play as adults you know this is a really area where we play with other people and it's something that's fun that you know of course can. Can physically feel good but also can make me feel really connected to another person so you know there are many other things like dancing and laughing with friends but. But sex is the first thing that comes to mind I love that answer. It's not an answer I've had on the show. So you're the first one to say that sex is something that brings them to work in. It is quite the obvious answer. I have been wanting to interview a sex therapist, so I think that could be a great part to follow up to your answer to what brings you in Dorfins, because there's a lot to be said about the relationship between pleasure and happiness, and there's just a lot of interesting work out there that talks about that. So thank you for giving my listeners such a fun answer to listen to. Not for nothing I think that I'm starting to think that within the air, if I have a specialty in the therapeutic world, it will be couples and sex. So, you know, I'm excited to see everything that you're going to continue to achieve, and I'm a huge fan of your work, and just getting to have this opportunity today has been absolutely incredible. Julia, where can my listeners find you on social media? Where can they follow along with your with everything that you do? Well, thank you for having me. I hope I didn't bumble too much, and there was something that people can walk away with. You can find me at Julia Bainbridge everywhere, really. JuliaBainbridge.com is, you know, my online portfolio of work. Julia Bainbridge on Twitter on Instagram. Pretty straightforward. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you for listening, and remember to like, rate, and review this podcast on whichever listening platform you prefer. Don't forget to keep spreading endorsements, and find things that bring you endorsements every day. See you next time.