EP #81- The Power of Building Community and The Influencer Economy with Patrick Janelle, "AGuyNamedPatrick," Founder of Untitled Secret

(gentle music) - Everybody has their own idea of what an influencer does or is and it's not always positive, right? On the one hand, I think that influence can mean so many different things. It doesn't necessarily mean that you have influence because you have a large social media following and it also doesn't mean that you don't have influence if you don't have social media period, right? - Welcome back to another episode of Everyday Endorphins, which is a podcast that discusses mental health, happiness and finding things that bring you joy and endorphins in life. I'm your host, Stella Stuffinopolis, and this week I have a very special guest who's come onto the podcast, my friend and neighbor, Patrick Janelle. You may know Patrick on Instagram as a guy named Patrick and he is one of the coolest people I've met, honestly. You will learn more as to why I think this as we get into the episode. This week was dedicated to talking about the power of building a community and more so talking broadly about what it's like to be an influencer. Patrick is an influencer. He has really grown his brand alongside the growth of the Instagram platform since really its inception about almost a decade ago now. So Patrick has a really interesting perspective to provide about what it means to be an influencer and maybe how that term has shifted as things have culturally changed over the past decade. And we also talk about Patrick's entrepreneurial spirit as the founder of his own talent agency and how he created a really, really cool social collective called the Spring Street Social Society. We also get into Patrick's tips for healthy living, his favorite workout classes, ways he chooses to stay healthy and happy in New York City and lastly, but not least, of course, what brings Patrick in Dorfins. I am thrilled for you all to hear this episode. Before we get into the interview, I have a brief message from my sponsor, Inker. Hi Patrick. Hi, how are you? I'm doing lovely. Thanks for coming on to the podcast. I'm so happy to be on the podcast. I was said as I entered your apartment that this was the shortest commute to do an interview, just walking down a simple flight of stairs. A flight of stairs. Yeah, I've known you as Stella, my neighbor for so long, but it's only recently that I realized you were Stella, the podcaster. I know. Now yes, now it's Stella, the everyday in Dorfins podcaster. And it's funny because when I first moved into this apartment, my roommates at the time, our fridge was stocked with all these cool drinks. And my roommates were like, oh, our neighbor is this really cool guy, Patrick. He's an influencer and he always is giving us tons of free drinks. And so I was like, who is this Patrick guy? Turns out you're a guy named Patrick. Yep, that's me. Can you start off by sharing a little bit more about how you got into the whole content creation space? Because I know that a guy named Patrick is your brand. It's your Instagram handle. Everyone should go check it out. But what is a guy named Patrick? Well, you know, the funny thing is a guy named Patrick started out years ago. I mean, I'm talking like 15 years ago as my resume website when I was doing graphic design. So I studied graphic design in college, and that's what I was doing professionally during my 20s. When I moved to New York, that was 2011. Instagram was a baby. And I had a couple of friends who were on it. Basically, they were having conversations that I wasn't a part of. And I was like, OK, I need to get on this Instagram thing. But as soon as I did, not long after I moved to New York, it was like this amazing place that was like a creative outlet for me. It was also a way to kind of document my daily activities. And it was like a way to kind of like grow a community, or like have a new community when I didn't have one in New York because I was brand new to the city. And also get like instant feedback on the photos that I was posting. So today, a guy named Patrick is primarily represents my Instagram feed. I also have a newsletter and a website. But it's always been about a slice of life of just me, a guy, a New York city kind of experiencing it. Early days was a lot of coffee content. You still will see some coffee content. But if you scroll back on my feed, you'll just see photos of literally the coffee I was drinking every day before going into the office when I still have my graphic design job. And then now today, it's coffee, it's restaurants, it's drinks, it's a very lifestyle driven content surrounding, I think, living a beautiful life. And I'm really grateful to have a platform that I can be really working hard to seek out these opportunities for myself and then have a place to share them with people who I think are hopefully interested. Well, I love following along with the content, especially a lot of the interior design content that you post, because it's night and day, the difference between our apartments. Here's a so beautifully decorated and organized, and there's such a beautiful element of feng shui. Thank you. I hope for one day I aspire my own apartment to be like. It's interesting because you started out in graphic design. And I know you also worked at Bon Appetit. So you've had a very creative career prior to getting into the whole world of content creation, and becoming an influencer. How would you describe the trajectory of stepping into this part of your career? Because you mentioned the content on your Instagram back in 2014 was probably very different than how it's evolved now. So what has that journey looked like for you? Well, the one thing that I think made it possible for me to really embrace Instagram and that it resonated with me was that it's a visual platform. And I'm a visual artist on many levels, on some level. So I definitely was excited by the fact that this was the thing that I could document, take photos, with the device in my hand and share them with people. But I also wanted to do it in a way where-- I've said a lot in the past that it's one thing to have an experience of something in real life. And then we have new apps now. Be real where you're literally taking a photo of something in the moment. And while I love that really raw connection to something, I've always really tried to think about how can I express this experience that I'm having through an image in a way that gives somebody else the same experience that I'm having, even though they're not here in person. Because sometimes when you show a photo of something, you get all the crap along with it. And I'm all for being real. But it's also about how can I choose the right image, or the right angle, or the specific moment that will then express a larger experience and a larger feeling. So that's how I've always approached Instagram. However, indicating everything that I'm saying, the platform has changed a lot. Other platforms have come up. We now obviously have TikTok. And we have video forward apps. And so on some level, I've also just had to keep up with the times. And there's a version of social media and of this world that I was really attracted to in the beginning that just doesn't exist anymore. And that's life, things change. And we have to roll with the punches and adjust. And sometimes it's harder than others. But one thing for me is that I have been in this space for over a decade now or about a decade. So the things that maybe drew me to it initially are no longer there. But I found other things that are exciting. I mean, for one, I founded an agency in which I represent other social media talent. So even though it's not about creating on the platforms anymore in terms of owning the agency, it's still a way in which I, myself, have evolved and thought of other ways to take my own creative energy, my own entrepreneurial spirit. And find other ways to apply those things. Definitely. And I want to talk more about your talent, agency, and all the other really interesting creative endeavors that you have and are continuing to do a little bit later. But to touch on your point around just being in the space for about a decade now, it's interesting to think about because you've kind of been with it since the inception of Instagram. And before the term influencer even really existed, before it was even coined, or before it became something that became so popular and all these brands now, I feel like looked influencers to promote their products because that's exactly what our generation is looking at, as far as consumer behavior and our preferences. But you had made a really interesting comment last week, chatted around viewing the content that you post to be more editorial on Instagram. Because when I think of the term influencer, a lot of different thoughts run through my mind. And you're also the chairman of the board of the directors of the American Influencer Council. Right. It's a mouthful. And so being a part of an organization like that, I'm sure there's probably a lot of conversations around just the terminology around being an influencer and what it means to influence and have a presence on social media. So throughout these past 10 years and now in this role, how have you-- seen things evolve and where do you hope the influencer space will trend towards? Totally. Yeah, I was doing brand deals on Instagram before the term influencer existed before I knew that this was like an opportunity to make a living. I very quickly realized what the opportunities were and where budgets could live in terms of what brands were willing to spend. So I've definitely seen the space evolve and that's one reason why I was asked to join the American influencer council when it was founded two years ago. And because they're, you know, one of our goals and missions with the AIC is to kind of create some standardizations and some education around the space. Because as you noted, like, it means a lot of different things to different people. It's still a very new field. So how are brands approaching this? How are individuals approaching this? How are all these creators? I mean, we have talent on our roster who two years ago didn't have a following and were second pandemic in their bedroom and now they're like massive on TikTok. So how do you take somebody who doesn't necessarily have any sort of professional history and help them, you know, create, you know, viable business and sustainable business? But you know, yeah, like early on, I never really liked the term influencer. And still we've debated this a lot in the AIC, even though that's like in the title of our organization. Because it does carry so much, you know, everybody has their own idea of what an influencer does or is and it's not always positive, right? So there's definitely this, it's, but it's all semantics at the same time too, right? Like on the one hand, I think that influence can mean so many different things. So influence in and of itself, I think, is maybe not the most sort of like correct term, but at the same time, it's a term that we all use and we understand. I mean, we use the term content creator, you know, which has its own kind of like focus on the actual output and creative creativity behind the content. But you know, that doesn't always get the full picture too. I mean, really what it comes down to and when, you know, referencing this idea of like editorial content, I've always thought about the work that I do and other people in the space, other influencers as being the best corollary is as if it's where we have our own magazine or kind of media company, right? We have all this content that people are coming for because they're entertained, they're inspired, they are educated. And by creating this content that people are drawn to, ultimately you have an audience then who's tuned in and who's listening. Brands want to be in front of audiences who are tuned in to content. And so therefore you can start telling advertisements and you can start, you know, working with those brands to get their messaging in front of your audience. So sure, influence, great content creation, absolutely. Media company, magazine, like all of these things are sort of like one aspect of how I think about the work that I do and the work that I lead in my agency. Yeah, I think that's a really great perspective to have. And when we also talked about that, it made me think about the whole like influencer economy or the term like what it means to be an influencer. It made me think about it differently. And I, like the hesitations I've had in the past is that it seems like some accounts just like blow up for no reason. And all of a sudden there are these influencers that just like all of a sudden become so popular. But maybe their content isn't actually grounded or rooted in something that's educational. It's like purely mindless entertainment, which is all fun and good. But I think the types of content creators that really stand out to me at least are the ones that bring forth more education. And it's actually like rooted in something that is like tangible and something that you can learn from. Like that I feel like is where there's like that really cool intersection between like approaching it with a mindset of like a magazine or like having your own media company. When you're able to like actually provide value in that type of way. Totally. You know, one thing, a couple of ways that I like to think about it are, you know, one, for me specifically I sort of agree with you that I want to be creating content and I also want to work with other creators who are creating content that has some sort of value that has a specific point of view that has some authority behind it, right? But at the same time we live in a world in which, you know, I live in a gay world in which you, you know, a guy can post a thirst trap photo of himself, a thought he photo without a shirt on, wearing his underwear and do that consistently and he's going to have a massive following, right? So we still live in a world in which whatever it is or maybe somebody looks good, something somebody's just funny, but you know, maybe doesn't have anything kind of like to add to a conversation. They're still going to get a following. But then the other thing that I think about is, you know, specifically through the sense of like being able to create a viable business is that content actually going to take anyone anywhere that's going to be valuable for them in terms of, you know, creating a revenue stream. You know, probably not if all of your, all your posting are sort of, you know, thought of a lot of your photos, like their shots, like sure, you may get a few brand deals here and there, but you're not going to appeal to enough advertisers essentially who believe that like the content that you're creating is valuable enough that they want to spend their marketing dollars with you. So it's also sort of like determining like what is the purpose? Sometimes people, this makes people feel really good and valued. I hesitate to claim that anybody who's posting their shot photos is actually creating more validation for themselves. It's a tricky road. But you know, like really what is the goal? And is it just to sort of like you, this is a game that you're, you know, you have a lot of followers. Great. Yeah, like I don't necessarily need to lend too much credence to the content that's being created there. But yeah, we live in a very, you know, diverse landscape of content creators of all types. Yeah. So there's drops are all fun and games, but maybe if you're actually looking to build more of a sustainable business, diversity of content is important. Yeah, definitely or like having that like that authoritative stance on whatever it is you're talking about. Absolutely. And I think another really interesting dynamic within the whole world of content and creation is kind of the paradox around like using social media to promote your own brand and your own personal brand and image when we know that social media and being on our phones is really detrimental to our health and well-being. And oftentimes, like photos online paint a very staged image of our lives. I mean, I know that like my Instagram feed, like everyone is, everyone's Instagram feed is, is like their highlight moment. It's like the highlight reel. And I think it's, it's, I don't know, like what's your perspective on like striking that balance where you're, you know, as an influencer, as a content creator, you're posting constantly on your Instagram feed, for example. But and I know, you know, we've spoken about how you try to keep it as like close to reality as possible to really have that sense of authenticity to your following. But how do you actually strike that balance? Well, you know, I think one of the kind of larger issues here is not just about like what content are you showcasing and is this like an active, an accurate representation of sort of like how you feel. I think there can be some sort of like, you know, suspension between like what we know everybody's real lives are and like what they're portraying. I think, you know, I personally love, as you said, showing the kind of like highlights. I find that I use Instagram stories as a way to show things that are a little bit more raw than like my infeed. So it's about finding like which parts of the platforms you can use. But what I was going to say about this kind of like larger issue is that fundamentally we are creating and building on platforms whose bottom line is depending on us to be on the platforms all the time and to honestly have those feelings of, you know, sort of like desire and, you know, sort of envy. So there you go, the better word for it. FOMO, then like then then what we have so we can keep creating and we want to kind of, you know, kind of keep up with what we're seeing. And there's no like in order for somebody to be super successful on a platform, they have to be posting all the time. Like that's one way to say it. And yet that is the worst thing that you can possibly do for your mental health. Right. Like there's the paradox. Right. And in terms of like we are fundamentally we're screwed because like these platforms, all of them, none of them are dependent upon us using them all the time. And none of them is in their best interest to create ways for us to do so sustainably. Like the idea of taking a week off of posting it all, like gives you anxiety because you know is it going to like mess up with like my algorithm is like whatever. And some people do this successfully, which is I think amazing, but at the same time. especially if your livelihood depends on it. If you've sort of, you know, you've retracted an audience, brands are coming, you're making the money. It, everything feels a little bit like it could be taken away at any moment because you don't actually like own all of it and you don't understand fully how like the algorithm works and how the platform works. So for all of the work that these platforms say that they're doing to support creators, I don't think that they're doing the like most fundamental thing, which is creating a framework to do the creation systemably. It's a good point. That's a really good point. Yeah. And that's why I just, I also have like this newfound respect for people who are content creators full-time because you have to be constantly posting and it's exhausting. I mean, even with maintaining an Instagram account for the podcast and like recently's Dabbling and Tick Talk, it's exhausting to create content all the time. So much work. And like video content as well. It's a lot of work. And if I had it my way, like I would, I would just like not even be on Instagram. But I'm like, well, I can't like the app off my phone because I'm using it at least every Thursday to post about the interviews that I, I host. So it's, it's definitely really challenging. And like as someone who posts quite often, how do you try to take care of your mental health when your part of your job really is to have this really active social media presence? Yeah. I mean, I definitely make decisions about times where I am just going to sort of like, you know, shut it off and not look. There will be, so whether it's like weekends or nights or you know, my schedule is kind of all up in the air. So it may, it may depend and may be totally different. I also have kind of gotten to the point where I know that sometimes not scrolling through my feed, not engaging because I'm not scrolling through my feed and seeing what is out there is not necessarily helpful for my business. But I've started like prioritizing my mental health and saying, well, I'm, you know, I am doing enough to be, you know, driving income. I also have diversified my revenue stream by building a business and having an agency. So I'm sort of like doing other things that then allow me to kind of take a little bit of a step back and have a breather, even knowing, even knowing that that like might be the demise of me on some, you know, someday. So I actually don't feel like I have a great answer, but I've sort of just, I've sort of resigned in the fact that like not always the choices that I make are the best business decisions, but if they're better for my mental health, then that's what I'm going to prioritize sometimes. Yeah. Picking and choosing your battles. Yeah. So I want to transition and talk a little bit more about how you also, aside from the Instagram content creation part of your career, you not only started more recently, I guess, your own talent agency, but prior to that, you found it a really cool community, the Spring Street social society. Yeah. I know. Also a mouthful. And also a mouthful. Can you talk a little bit more about the Spring Street social society and how it evolved over time and how it has led you to where you are now? Yeah. Totally. So Spring Street social society was, it's now defunct, but it was a community that was based off of in-person gatherings that took the form of surprised inner parties and immersive performances and the combination of those things. And it was my way to collaborate with chefs and performers and artists of various types. That actually the growth of Spring Street social society really paralleled my growth on social media because it was while I was still at Bonaparte when I joined Instagram. I also was living in my first apartment in New York. On Spring Street. On Spring Street. A little studio that I shared with my best friend Rebecca. And we, it was a studio that we shared because I convinced her that we would be the like the cool kids on the block if we had a backyard because this apartment had a backyard. So I basically convinced my friend to share a studio with me so we could host parties in my backyard. The barbecues that we had and then at one point, cabaret shows on our deck in this backyard. And when I say like a backyard in Soho, this wasn't like a patio. This was like, I could, I could fit like 60 people in this backyard crammed and a stage and put on a cabaret show. And it was like all enclosed and like I remember one of our events like neighbors were hanging out of the windows like above us kind of like leaning out watching the show down below. It was like really magical and that's when you knew that it was going to just kind of blow up. Well, it was more than knowing that it was going to blow up but just like absolutely loving what I was doing, you know? I think that's really one of the things that has always driven me is like I just get so excited to like do a thing and I won't stop until I'm like, I tell him doing it or it's done. So I'm very driven. I'm not very calculated in terms of like, okay, let me make my list of goals for my future and then like what are my priorities and like pros and cons. I'm like, no, I just stumble upon something and I'm like, oh my god, that's so good. I have to do it. And that was my cabaret show on my backyard. And I was like, it's Spring Street Social Society. I had a creative partner at the time and she and I were putting these things on together and we just kind of kept doing it. And it was like one after the other. So eventually moved it out of the backyard. Eventually set up an actual paid dues-paying membership. Individuals who I'm sure I'm hopefully, you know, some of you are listening out there who are part of the Spring Street community who were just excited to gather for the once a month that we that we offered. And it was always, it was an unusual location. We wouldn't disclose the location until the night before. So you show up, you don't really know what you're getting and we like create this experience that really the goal was always to connect to the city and connect to each other in a way that was magical and surprising. I'm sure these were events that were filled with endorphins. And oh my god, so many endorphins. Because being around people is just such like an exciting like lovely experience and there's actually a fact in positive psychology that the number one predictor of our well-being and satisfaction is the strength of our interpersonal relationships. So having the ability to create a community where people are coming together and doing fun like underground really unique events. Like I'm sure just like the energy in the rooms are just like incredible. Yeah, one thing there were a couple of ways that which I think that played out. One was, you know, you would have these people who were just like really excited to do something that took them out of their normal like social circles and their normal like patterns of life and even entertainment. And so you had strangers who were just like excited to be together in one space. And you sort of like the mutual bond was that you were both you knew that you were both committing to something that you didn't know what you were committing to. Until the day of. Until the day of. And like that's exciting to be like we I see you because you see me because we're here at this crazy thing. What is it? We don't know but like it's gonna be great. So there's that energy and then there's also the energy of creating. I mean I couldn't be like more have more like satisfaction and gratitude for having created something in which people truly would form friendships like sometimes so many events were like two nights instead of one because we needed to like keep it small but like allow access to more people. So we'd repeat the same event two nights. So when like the the tickets would go out we knew that there were certain groups of people who would like become friends through the community who would be on like text chains being like which night are you going to? Which night like we have to like go together. So like were these people that met at previous events? Yeah people. And just became friends. Exactly. And were these member only events? We had there were a there were a range of different events. The kind of like you know capstone events were the the dining events. So those were the ones that were members only because there was so much demand. We had a few other events that were more performance driven or like cocktail driven that sometimes we could allow non-members but by and large it was members and yes they would like meet and then subsequently form relationships. I mean we had a we had an engagement we had a wedding a spring street couple from they met all my they met as members of spring street and then are now married. I was gonna ask like what was what was your favorite event that you guys put on? I mean I feel like that probably must have been high up on your list. Yeah I'm you know I don't know exactly which event they met at I remember them at one speak easy like kind of canodalign but I don't know if that was where they met. What my favorite event we probably ever did. There was so many but one that was sort of early on we actually took over so now where Moynihan station is the old post office? That's where my my office is. Oh like Ann Moynihan station? Well like like it's an MSG or right next MSG right? Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah it's like the post office. Yes yeah yeah. We did an event on like that it was like the second or third floor above where the post office windows are like on a avenue and like the entire building was empty so like it was it was like kind of derelict and falling apart. We did we worked with my friend Zachary Grady because the theater artist to create this immersive theatrical piece which was set in an old post office so we used the space as the infinity. for the story. And Zachary does this incredible thing or has in the past, creates this theatrical landscape in which everybody's wearing headphones and you're put on like multiple tracks. So depending on kind of like which headphones you get, it guides you through the experience in a different way. So people are literally going from like room to room, seeing these actors who are in like 40s or you know, you know, vintage garb who are workers at the post office and seeing this like love story unfold. But with different audio. With different audio. So they're being, they're being led through the through the experience in a different configuration. They're ultimately getting the same story, but being led through in a different configuration. And then in the middle of it was a dinner. So like everybody takes their headphones off and like sits down to this like sumptuous banquet. Everybody's like, wait, who do you think did it? Because it was a murder mystery. That's what it was. Oh, that's captain. Yeah. So then after everybody sits down and does the dinner, we like get everybody puts their headphones back on and it's sort of like the resolution. And I will like, we probably put this on maybe like five nights. I can still feel the chills from how it from how it ended because basically you see you're in like this library space. And everybody's sort of being like then at the end, everybody has like the same audio. So it's kind of happening all at the same time. Everybody is then told to go over, look out the window onto eighth avenue. And you see this woman walk across the street, literally like I'm desiring the street because it's late at night, like a street light shining as she like walks away and kind of looks back. And she's the one who committed the murder and like gets away. But it's like literally a person out in the city walking away into the night. And it's like this incredibly immersive because you feel like you're yeah, you feel like you're and also like having somebody broke break the kind of environment that we were in the theatrical environment and seeing them literally walk out into the the city then kind of like broke you out. You're still in this performance, but it's also now part of New York City. And it's just like my blowing really incredible. I wish I was a member of the society. When did spring when did it end? We closed in 2018 and you know I think something that's very kind of like fitting for I think you know the way you look at things with everyday and girlfriends. Like one of the and sort of what we've talked about a little bit in terms of you know who we're bringing together. We basically realized that in order to make this sustainable there were a couple of different ways, but honestly really the only way was to like increase ticket prices to a place where the only people who would have been able to attend were like super wealthy people who have like nothing else to do but spend a lot of money on entertainment. And while I would be grateful if I were running just a business for like that audience, I was running you know creative endeavor that was very meaningful to me and all of the people I'm sure 75% of the people or 50% of the people who were attending would no longer have been able to attend if I didn't increase the ticket prices. So like what it would create what it would require to create these sort of like immersive performances and not have to just pull in a million favors to get it done. Like we were not spending the money that we otherwise would have had to to produce these things. So it really was like a creative passion project that ran its course and at certain point we were like it's not sustainable anymore. We did what we came to do and and that was it. And then that led you to what you're doing now. And so I think it's a really amazing not only is it amazing that you were able to be so successful with what you were doing before and create an experience where you were getting people to get interested in what you were doing and getting a lot of people to come. Like you mentioned you'd have to do two events every weekend or whenever you were putting them on. So you really created a following and that in it of itself is a huge accomplishment and I think something that I think we can both relate to is feeling nourished and fulfilled when you're giving back to others and like bringing someone else an experience that's enjoyable and that's making them happy and feel fulfilled. So it's like this really beautiful like cyclical feedback loop. And even though in 2018 it retired you've now been able to progress in your career and start your own talent agency. Can you talk a little bit more about that and what you're doing now? Yeah definitely. I mean there was a period so between mid 2018 to the end of 2019 where in some senses there was a kind of like sigh of relief because it was so much work doing these projects. And to your point I really do thrive on like entertaining and hosting and like taking care of people and giving them an experience. I love it and I always will. But I definitely had gone through a period of like five or six years where it was just non-stop. So took a beat, took a breath, and then yeah the way that my mind works is there's always just like something else or like that would be a fun idea. So I had a team member, Mauricio who works with me still. He had worked on Spring Street and its last kind of phase was working with me on a kind of Patrick and all of my like brand development and then we I sort of had this idea with another friend of mine who is a content creator, Elliott Clark apartment bartender who was coming to me with a lot of questions about how to manage his business and I talked to Mauricio and I was like we're doing this for me. I think there's opportunity for us to do this for other people especially you know we've been in this game for so long even at that point. So it was sort of a trial period when we first started working with Elliott but it quickly became apparent that this was an opportunity and a way to apply you know my role of decks and my experience and things that I hadn't learned from other people who've been a part of my team in the past into building something new. So beginning of 2020 is when I serendipityously met another talent manager who was like looking for a new home. She had a few talent with her. I also you know was like ready for like to to really systematize what we were doing and yeah started on title secret as the talent management agency and I mean that was 2020 so it was you know not long after when things like became very scary and very unstable especially when I suddenly went from having one employee to or actually I think Lyle was with me at the time so maybe I had two employees to having you know four employees and then the pandemic hits and I have to go through the PPP loan and like you know all the things but at the same time it honestly couldn't have been like better timing because you know as we've talked about everybody is paying attention to what's happening on their phones and digitally and working with content creators and influencers was the right right time right place because that's where so much of you know advertising and marketing has gone. Yeah and in the pandemic because there was so much time there was a lot of time to like pursue a lot of create creative projects. Sure certainly. So I think like even though it must have been really stressful to I don't know three months later COVID- COVID hits and there's so much that's unpredictable and uncertain about the future oddly enough it kind of almost worked out in a way because with all that time doing nothing where like the entire world was on pause and on shutdown we now had all this time to just be on our phones and like be on social media and then I think tick talk really blew up so I think like like you said kind of like right time right place. I also know that in your newsletter you give out a lot of recommendations on like your favorite spots or like when you're traveling favorite places that you've been to and a variety of other recommendations or like editorial content that's published there but being in New York now for a decade. Yeah so you're true New Yorker. Yeah I just hit my 10-year mark. Congratulations. Being in New York now for so long and are there any spots that you really love that are focused on health and wellness that you frequent like maybe favorite like workout studio or um yeah let's see that's a good question um I am a huge fan of this app called Jim Pass. Have you heard it? Did we talk about it? We talked about it and I it's funny because there are conversations to have my company get Jim Pass and I I wish they had it. Well let me just say I am like a huge evangelist for Jim Pass. I have it for my agency. It's something that like has to come through a corporate benefit um and because I run my own agency I can pay for it for my team and it's actually not that expensive for the owner of the company. So just putting that out there. Yes. Some ammunition. But the one thing the reason I bring it up it's I know a lot of people have heard of ClassPass which is based off of like you know credits. Jim Pass is based off of tiers and you basically get tiered access to various places in city and the reason I love that is I've always loved the way that like fitness and health and wellness has been incorporated into New York City in terms of like so many options for classes and studios and I've done I've written like I think I cycle through things because I love it all but I like I you can't do it all so like sometimes I'm like really on the yoga train sometimes like more recently I've been going to Y7 you know. Y7 is great. Over here close to us in Flatiron um but then when I'm not doing yoga I enjoy going I go to I'm a member of lifetime fitness um also nearby I love doing their classes there they have a beautiful gym um I also love a berries class I love the like adrenaline filled like kind of theatricalized like you know, red light whole thing. I think it's ridiculous and really fun. - Have you been to grit boxing? - I've never been to grit. - Oh my goodness. (laughs) - We should totally go. The problem is grit may not be on gym pass and now I've been like limiting my selection to what's on gym pass. But I'm also happy to pay for a pass. - Yeah, I can try that. - There's a bar at grit. - Really? - That's the whole, like, promise of it. - I didn't know that. Oh, that's the one over on like, 16th or 16th. - It's on 16th, yeah. - Yeah, and so it's, there's like, I think a disco ball. I mean, I've been a few times. But there's lights and it's hybrid, like, hit slash, boxing slash, strength training class. - So fun. - And then after they like, hand you shots. - Oh my gosh, what? - But there's like, it's diluted. And there's like electrolytes in it. I don't know how I feel about like, drinking right after working out. It kind of like defeats the risk. - Oh, I joke, rate about drinking right after working out. - Well, you've a lovely bar in your apartment. So it's sitting, but no grit is like, it's a fun vibe. So I totally agree. Like, I think the diversity of fitness classes in New York is great. I, for whoever like really follows along with my podcast, I'm a yoga fanatic. I'm certified. I'm an instructor. - Well, I need to do an instructor. - I do, I instruct at core power. So shout out, if anyone who's listening is based the New York area, you can come to my class on Sundays at 4 p.m. and Wednesday nights, candle it at 8.30. - Still need to do it. I love core power, it's also a favorite. - Yeah, core power is great. And I like that core power has lots of different types of yoga. There's more vinyasa based, there's more bichram based, there's the yoga sculpt, which is really popular, which incorporates light weights. So there's a lot that you can do there. And I think it's really inviting for people who don't really practice yoga a lot, or have some sort of perception around yoga being one certain way. And I think maybe a yoga sculpt is more attractive 'cause it feels more of a workout. But I totally agree that there's just a diversity of fitness classes. And I guess aside from specific spots in New York, I know that a lot of your content, and I think your way of life is very much oriented around health and wellness, has your perspective around health evolved throughout the course of your life, and if so, how has that developed? - Yeah, I think that, so I grew up in Colorado, which I feel like, by and large, there's a pretty sort of like health-focused kind of environment. There's a lot of like focus on outdoor activity, hiking, biking, walking, swimming, like everything. So I think that I have a kind of like fundamental interest in like more like fitness type activities. But I was never personally, I had never really created like a goal for myself personally in terms of like the types of fitness that I was interested in. One, because I feel like so often, I've never been a huge fan of like the gym fitness culture because I get intimidated by gyms. So like that's always been hard for me. But then again, I do love the fitness that includes like, I live cycling, like things kind of like on my own outside that also include adventure. Sorry, I'm kind of like rambling, but I think what I think what I feel most about my own trajectory is that I have really come to like claim and enjoy and prioritize fitness and wellness more so in my adult life. Specifically fitness, and when it comes to wellness, the way that I think about it is really, I'm like a very like all things in moderation type. I actually don't really do drugs, so I'm like not really like drugs in moderation, but you know, I drink quite a bit, and I love like food that's supposed to be like not the best for you or whatever, and I like love Shake Shack and-- - Unhealthy? - Yeah, I love-- - I love unhealthy food. - I love unhealthy food. Right, and like as long as I'm really, I think actually something that I have thought a lot about and where I'm kind of like taking this is the fact that like, I am a strong believer in like listening to your body, and I think that if you're really in tune then you can understand when like in activity, like truly it will feel, it's either like, it'll feel good to like, you want, you're like driving, you like really want to go for a runner for a bike ride, or you haven't done it in a while, and you're like, you're feeling like, like it's like a really difficult to like get out there and do it, that's also your body like telling you that like you need to though, you know? And also just when it comes like eating food, like I'm all about like, what am I actually craving to eat right now? I then think about what the components of that food are too. And I'm like, oh, I really know that I want something that's like carb-fueled and blah blah blah, and that doesn't mean that it's like, I should or shouldn't have it, but I love being able to identify like what my body needs because of like the amount of activity that I've had or like whatever, I love, I love when my body just like really wants a steak. It's not something I want all the time, but I'm like, I need some red meat right now. Totally, when you have these like intense random cravings, they're kind of like the best thing ever, because I think especially with eating I like the paralysis of choice, like what am I gonna have for dinner tonight? Right. And I'm like, I have no idea what I want, and then I feel dissatisfied, but it's so great when like you have that intense craving and you're like, this is exactly what I want, then you have it and you're like, so fulfilled. And then back to this idea of like moderation, right? It's like all of these things I think can be positive and good as long as you don't overdo it. And then listening to your body doesn't always mean listening to the craving because it's like, if I really know that I'm just like super hungry, anything's gonna sound good, and then I'm gonna go for whatever is like nearest me and that's gonna be like what I'm craving, even though it's gonna make me sick 'cause I just had a pint of ice cream right now. Exactly, oh that's dangerous. Ice cream is like, that's, yeah. But I think it's like, you also have to recognize, well am I stressed and I tired and my thirsty? Like these are all factors that can obviously influence like the decisions that you make or the choices you make around like what you're gonna consume. But also recognizing that listening to your body, listening to your body may look different every day because our bodies are constantly changing and constantly developing and evolving. And so like I think giving yourself the grace to be kind to yourself and kind of recognize that things aren't always like black or white. Like this or that, it's very much like a fluid. - Well, and I know my body obviously or I've tried to tune into it and learn more about it, but I'm sure everybody's body is different. So it's also like being aware of like how your needs might be different from other peoples and also accepting other people's needs, and not sort of comparing yourself in that way. Do you meditate? - I actually don't meditate. I don't have, certainly don't have anything against it, but it's never something that I have felt compelled to do. There have been moments in time when I have meditated through a practice that I'm a part of that somebody's led or something. Who knows, maybe it would be good for me. But I think, I do have a really tough time putting time aside for something that either on, I sort of like don't, that I ascribe less value to or not about value, but less productivity too. And so I think that's probably one reason why I haven't embarked on any meditation practice. I mean, I think in general, if I'm just being honest and candid, I've never really felt the need. I haven't felt that I need a meditation practice and that the ways in which I sort of relax, re-energize, reorient myself in the world happen in different ways and it's not through meditation. But I also say that with like, I'm probably in the future, I'll be like, oh my god, I can't believe I never meditate or something, I don't know. - But I think you raise really valid points because you can find many meditations in so many different activities. You can tap into that flow like stay through other things. And the reason I asked, do you meditate? It's because I think your perspective on health and the way you've been answering these questions comes from this mindfulness-based approach that is often practiced in meditation. So maybe one day you might actually like it. - Yeah, and I think that's something that I've always really, to that point, I've always kind of desired to pursue a more thoughtful approach to thing. And it's funny you say that because I'm even like, well part of the reason that I don't do, I find that so many friends that I have that I feel like they're not a take because it's like the thing to do. And maybe not for them, but I don't know. And then I'm just sort of like, part of my mindfulness is being mindful that I don't need to meditate. (laughing) - That's a great way to put it. I know, I mean, but that's, I have all these thoughts about the wellness industry at large because it's great that there's more awareness around meditating and doing yoga and all these good practices for you, but then it's also like, why is it now the cool thing to meditate? Like why can't you just go do it? Like if you actually wanna do it, just go do it. And even though I speak a lot about the value of meditation and breath work and all of that, I also can feel similarly sometimes or I'm like the thought of like doing nothing for 20 minutes, I'm like, I feel like I'm behind on everything else. But it's like very funny because like I know that if I actually sit down and take those 20 minutes out of my day to just focus on my breath and like kind of like, you know, our mind is a muscle. So exercise that muscle around mindfulness and just sitting through that meditation. I know it will actually make me feel better. But it's like this psychological thing that even after like getting my Certification and taking like various meditation classes in college and like being like an advocate for the practice It's still difficult for me to have a consistent and regular practice. Yeah, and I don't think it makes me a hypocrite Because I know but some people would say yeah, like some people would probably think well, you know You're preaching about this, but you don't actually do it that often But I think it it just goes to show that it is really difficult to incorporate on a day-to-day basis but you can still value meditation and You know incorporate Meditative practices into like your broader philosophy on life or like the way you approach other things in your life Totally so like I feel like I kind of I Feel like I understand where like what you're getting at and I see your perspective Even though you like on like I don't know a spectrum maybe I meditate more frequently than you do, but it doesn't mean that you Like don't see the value right when I think about it like I love cycling and I'm in a period of my life right now where I'm cycling constantly or Quite constantly not as constantly as some other friends, right? But like I'm I love cycling I go on really long rides and it's a really regular part of my life So I love one other people cycle and I like want to encourage them to do it But I'm also fine with people not cycling so it's a similar thing like this is what my body needs This is what I crave. This is what I find value in I don't think that this is the thing that Is going to make anybody else's life better necessarily? It's made my life better and for various reasons and You know all things in moderation and you know sort of like any practice It's sort of like what is your body need and what do you need and what and how do you how are you fulfilled? Yeah, great nuggets of wisdom One question that I ask that I'd love to wrap up this interview with I ask every single guest that comes on to the podcast and I think we kind of touched a little bit on it throughout the course of this interview Everything that you know I discuss here is centered around mental health and happiness and well-being and finding things in life that Really fuel you and ignite you and bring you that sense of joy and endorphins in your day to day So I'd love to hear from you Patrick. What is something that brings you a bit of endorphins every day? The smallest thing that I probably would say I do More than any other activity in my life and do it daily and regularly is have a cup of coffee every morning It's my cortado. I coined the hashtag daily cortado on Instagram like 10 years ago Do you know what a cortado is like I know I was gonna make it up Yeah, not in front of everybody Cortado is essentially I mean it's it's similar to a Cappuccino or latte and that it's espresso and steamed milk But the thing that makes it specific is that it has less milk and it has about the equal proportions of espresso and milk So the only reason that it's important is so you know what it is It's basically a stronger espresso and milk drink so like a stronger capuccino Yeah, yeah, like because the coffee shines through more because there's less milk I feel like I would just prefer the capuccino. Yeah, but I love that free right exactly. It's like what I it's like I love this particular Particular proportion of milk to coffee anyway I only say this because people who know me know that like a cortado is my thing. It's your daily cortado It is my daily cortado and I have since the pandemic had my own espresso machine and I can make it for myself And I can even do a little bit of latte art really yeah, it's like a little a cute little like rosette on top Oh my god, so literally I come down for a day. Oh my gosh. Yeah, you totally should come down Stop by on your way to the office. Yes, I'll make you a daily cortado But I won't make you a daily cappuccino Let's find all do the cortado. Okay, although I have kind of given up coffees This but I've re-incorporated it slowly back into my routine Well, I do you know I I can't spoil water make you tea if you'd like I'm happy I have to do the daily it's special the daily cortado with Patrick and you know for a long time It was about me experiencing different coffee shops in the neighborhood I have made friends with baristas. I still I actually am friends with one of the baristas down on the coffee shop down the block It also provides me a moment in the morning where it's like I actually do take time to be like oh, I'm giving myself a moment to whatever it is do wordle or text a friend or Just sort of like sit there and think and not do anything else. It's a little bit my like meditative moment And they are there's not a lot of times that I give myself always to just sort of like stop and take a break My my daily moment is like that that like really refills me and like and I just like get so excited I get so excited to be like okay I'm gonna like take my shower and get my workout in and a lot because what I really want to do is sit down and have my It gives you something look forward to I think like a few weeks ago. It was like six in the morning and I was leaving to go to a workout class And you had just gone back from berries. Yeah, and like I don't know if you felt this way But I felt like we were sharing this special moment where it was like like no one's really awake Yeah, and like you're already getting you you would just finish your workout I was just about to go but I was like oh my god you finished at 6 a.m Like you're up early, but it's so nice to be up and like you move your body and then like Showered clean and then you have your drink of choice whatever it is Having like that period of time in the morning before you start your day. Yeah, it's so special to me It's one reason why I think why I love morning overnight It's like that exactly what you described and that sort of like special secret that either you have with the world or maybe one other person But it's like nobody else knows what they're missing right now because they're sleeping But I'm seeing the world fresh and new and it's amazing. I think it's easier to do in the summer. Yeah For sure like ask me in like a few months. It's gonna. I don't know if you'll see me It's like the morning in the hallway, but I I love that answer and Coffee also brings people in Dorfins just like the ritual and the taste and I am a coffee fanatic, but as I mentioned I have scaled back and now I'm a match a queen. Okay But like I also love coffee. So I guess I just love both yeah aside from all of that I Really really enjoyed having you as a guest on the podcast Patrick. Thank you for my listeners Follow you so you can go to my website a guy named Patrick calm you can follow me on Instagram @ a guy named Patrick and On my website you can subscribe for my newsletter and Yeah, check out my my Agency talent management and creative services agency untitled secret lovely and Maybe in the future one day there may be a really exclusive dinner party here bring back spring street It's yeah dinner party speak easy. There's definitely gonna be something podcast I'm just kidding. I'm thank you so much. It's been such pleasure having you total pleasure. Thank you for having me Thank you for listening and remember to like rate and review this podcast on whichever listening platform you prefer Don't forget to keep spreading in Dorfins and find things that bring you in Dorfins every day See you next time