Ep. 73: Sara Horner on the Life & Legacy of James Horner

[Music] Welcome, welcome. A notable welcome to all of you music lovers. To the journey. To the stage. Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome back. Your host. Your host. Our dad. Brian. >> Brian. >> Rear. >> Let's get started. Tell me. >> Welcome, one and all, to Journey to the stage with Brian Frazier. I am so glad that you pulled up a chair to join us today. Anyone who knows me or has listened to Journey to the stage for a while knows how much I love the music of movies. As a child, I was stirred first by the sounds of Star Wars, scored by John Williams, of course, that helped me to understand the importance of the power of a great score. In the late 80s, the scores of Field of Dreams and Glory grabbed my intention. And starting in the early 90s, I became an ardent listener and collector of the works of James Horner. And I would seek out movies that he had scored so I could watch them. When I got married in 1997, the piece The Legend of the Fall was played. On piano as part of the processional, and my wife and I had our first dance to the Ludlow's, a piece that is still very near and dear to me from The Legends of the Fall, of course. I can say that there is no composer who means more to me than the James Horner. In September of this year, I was fortunate enough to be invited by a dear friend to join an online event put on by the American Society of Music, Rangers, and Composers, which used James' score, the Rocketeer, to lead a discussion on the director/composer relationship with director James Johnson as a part of it. Sarah Horner was a part of the panel of that conversation and the event discussion leader Dan Redfield was kind enough to reach out to Sarah on my behalf, and that is how we arrived at where we are today. It's a genuine honor for me to welcome to Journey to the Stage James Horner's wife Sarah Horner. Sarah, welcome. How are you doing? I'm doing well. Thank you very much. Yeah, it's a real treat to have you here. As somebody who has been a fan of James' work for my goodness 30 plus years now, that makes me feel old. This is a chat I've been looking forward to, so I'm super glad that you've made some time so we can connect today. Just a quick note to everybody listening before we get started, I have another episode in honor of James Horner that will feature Ron Hicklen and Sally Stevens. There are two separate episodes with them and they're fascinating careers. But we recorded an episode together where Ron and Sally talk about their work as vocalists and vocal contractors. They're both not retired. But did lots of work with James over many, many of his scores. In that episode, we'll really focus on their experience in the studio with James. And as a teaser, Ron Hicklen tells the story of when they were recording the Apollo 13 soundtrack. And a very important moment when Ron Howard walked out of the recording sound booth and said that that was the greatest moment of his career, which is huge if you think about that. So just a little teaser about that episode, which that will be released. So keep an eye out for that. So Sarah, I'm so curious. Tell us about how you and James met. James and I met. This is kind of hard to believe that we met on a blind date. Did you? That was set up by my mother's neighbor who happened to be best friends with James or good friends. I'm not your best friends. Good friends with James's mother. And I don't know. I thought about this in the years past. She often asked me to go on blind dates with her friends kids. What this was about. I don't know. I think she just felt like she was doing good in the world. These young men should meet this nice young woman. And she would, you know, have no idea. Anyway, she asked if I would go out with her friends son. And he said, yes, I would. And so we went out for a coffee and had a pretty nice time. Nice. How old were you guys in the Iron Man? You were still young. I think I was maybe 21 or something. I had, I had was taking a break from school. I was, I think at that point I was back in college at UCLA. I got my bachelor's in studio arts at UCLA. And James was theoretically finishing up his PhD. What he was actually doing was getting a double TA ship. So he got paid and doing these two, you know, sessions and then spending his time trying to get movie work. Or he was getting interested in getting movie work. But he would what he's his, his racket was, if I could put it that way. Is he finished all his coursework except for you at that point you needed a second European or second language to graduate and get your PhD. So he simply had to take French in order to get his PhD, which he just would sign up for but never go to. And then he wouldn't pass. And so then he would just, you know, do his TA shifts and try to get film work. Did he ever learn French at all? No, I don't think there was. He could, you know, stats both German. So he could speak German. And I don't think that was difficult. One of the neat things that I learned about James's family background was that his dad is also a two time Academy Award winner and for for scene design and had a wonderful career doing design work for films and television. But also for Broadway and really helped the creation of the the turntable type stage design for scene changes that is remarkable. I had no idea and his dad also was did some conducting work too. So I'm so curious with how just tell us a little bit about James's family because I know there's some some stories there. His father was from Vienna grew up in Vienna and was, you know, he was a trained architect. He was a, he played piano. He spoke many languages and he was interested in the arts and ended up working as an actor. I think that's how he started with a max Ryan heart and he happened to be in the United States when the war started heating up in Europe. I don't know the exact year. But he stayed here essentially and and then later was able to help some of his family members get out. So his dad was just a very sophisticated what you would I guess today call a highly cultured man so he he was just I mean for me and I'm a painting student at the time you can imagine. This is I'm also as an added reader as a child so James's father was like the I just can believe anybody got a dad like this. I mean I love my father. He was a wonderful father but yeah James has you could talk about anything you're reading or anything you had seen or I could talk about painters and how do you feel about. You know Paul Clay such and such you could discuss anything in the arts and this man had a library that there was an endless library of books on the arts on theater design and architecture on philosophy. So they would literally sit and listen to music together or play music together and it was like a kind of heaven to me it was like like just the most wonderful thing to happen in my life. Whereas for the family members themselves the sons are all you know rebellious and irritated with their parents and you know appreciative. I mean they just take it for granted but I I now that I'm much older I'm extremely appreciative that I was exposed to that world. And I ended up after James passed away I ended up with his flat in London so I spend a lot of time in Europe and if you're a classical music person if you enjoy listening to it. The audience is there are in the productions the quality of things is so high and the people because Europe smaller people fly around to see things like they'll fly in to see us opera or fly in to listen to something. So it's another it's like another candy store you know aesthetic pleasure. As a painter you've painted marvelously with words that that experience and you'd mentioned a little bit earlier in our pre conversation how James and his dad would play for hand piano talk to us a little bit about that that sounds fascinating. Yeah that's what James grew up with his dad they play for hand piano on their this baby grand bousin torford which I'm now getting refurbished. But that's it. That's what they did for fun. We played tennis on its king and went fishing in my family for fun. So he and his dad would just sit down and do that in the afternoon or when we go visit, they just hang out and do that. It's pretty magical. It was a incredibly magical experience. And the house was this modernist house in the bottom of Rustic Canyon, so the big plate glatt wing glass windows that look out onto Sycamores and this beautiful garden and there's a creek in the backyard and the parents are beautifully dressed and they sit and play piano. And let's listen to this symphony that I just got a new recording. It was really unbelievable. It was very, very lucky. Almost sounds like a movie in and of itself. What a great. I was thinking it's a little garden of the Fitsycontini. Yeah, right. You know, this match post-war world and there were a lot of refugees in Rustic Canyon at that time. Really interesting. Before. Yeah. And a lot of music people live nearby. And a lot of, I know there was another art director that lived up the street that my parents knew. It's also the case that many of the friends of James' parents were friends of my parents. They shared a similar world and we, honestly, I still am friendly with my good friend from elementary school and her mother was a good friend with James' mother. Wow. And I have another friend that I used to be, a little girl I used to babysit. Her mom was the mother that introduced me to James. So it's like a small town in Bratwood, circa 1960. Wow. It sounds beautiful. How fun. I'm, so James grew up really in kind of this classical music. He's trained in that. He's obviously consumed a lot of that, played a lot of that. But I know sometimes people might listen to music that maybe ventures out of that. What, you know, when James would sit down to listen to music, what type of artists or maybe other types of music would he have been drawn to? I think it would be, I would say, was predominantly classical. He would veer off into maybe bracked or, which is really, you know, folk classical music in a sense. But he also, as he got older, became really interested in other genres. I would say more world music is how I put, obviously, Irish music. He was fascinated with, but I, and you wouldn't really know he would spend a lot of time just in his studio. He liked to listen to music and lie on the floor for some reason and put it on and listen to it. So unless you happened upon him doing that, you wouldn't particularly know. And, or if I'd gotten his car, I mean, oddly, he used to listen to the Mexican radio station. He would listen to, yeah, to whatever it was going on. Because I mean, he, I think he himself will describe himself as a colorist. So I think these color worlds of these ethnic alternatives were very inspiring. I would say he was not a huge, I'd say ironic, but he's not a huge fan of any kind of popular American music. Except for maybe older music from the 50s or 60s. But certainly not any rock, what we call rock and roll or anything past that time. To be careful. Well, much of the music from that period is very compositional. There was a lot of orchestration to much of the music from that era. So I could see where he would be, where he would be drawn to that, and the incorporation of strings and other things, which probably, but I'm so fascinated by the fact that he would listen to the Mexican radio stations. And in, in, in one sense, though, I'm not surprised because as a composer who dabbled in very many different types of film, would need to call on some of those colors from time to time that were informed by some of the other things that sounds like he was listening to. So that's, that's not altogether too surprising, but I think it's wonderful, though. I think that's very fascinating. Yeah, just had a classic taste, is what I would say. Yeah. So, you know, when, when James started composing in film, you know, he was like all composers, you don't start on these huge budget films, you kind of work your way up the ranks, and he was working in, he did a lot of work with the Roger Korman films. In fact, I just was noticing that humanoids from the deep and battle beyond the stars, which were some of his earliest works. Those are all being re-released right now. So that's kind of, that's kind of fun. Now as he, obviously over time, became really at the top of the food chain, so to speak, I mean, he was one of the most sought-after composers in Hollywood. You were with him through that entire ascent. What, was that like for you from your perspective to, to, to be there with him and experience that with him as he went from point A to, you know, being at the top? What was that like? You know, I'm frequently asked this question, and I will tell you, it was just my normal life and I kind of didn't notice, to be honest, because like the, he started doing these student films, like at AFI, for instance, and that's, we're in school. We make student projects, you know, it just seemed like something he liked to do, and then at Rogers, at New World Pictures, I, when I graduated school, I went to work there too, and that's just about to young people hanging out, and all those people were under the age of 30, and, you know, Jim Cameron worked on "Battle Beans" in the stars. He was doing this special effects. You do, I think special effects are something, you know. Yeah, yeah, so he was around all the time. We were like a pack of, it was like being in a fraternity or a sorority or a college, you're not, and I wasn't particularly serious. Many people were very serious film graduates, they're trying to bake in the business, and I was just kind of going along to be honest with you. I wasn't that driven, and as James made, worked from picture to picture to picture, his, there was nothing he did that was any different on a daily basis. He would just write this music relentlessly, and he would just socialize with a new set of people, would be a new director, a new producer, a new studio, and I also grew up in this world of West LA where I mean I'd say a good, good number of, not 50%, but definitely more than 25% of my friends' parents worked in the business. The, for instance, the woman who set me up on the date with James, she was an actress, and she, and her husband was a screenwriter, and he was, you know, they wrote things that got award, things so, okay, just without sounding too elitist, like everyone had Academy Awards, and half the people's parents were famous, and they all did something, and it didn't really matter to you as a child in the world. They were either, either like the person's parents, or you thought they were awful. You know what I mean? It's just like, you either like, you didn't really, oh, if this person was, my dad had an insurance business that he ran that was very successful, but, so, you know, nobody cared what your parent did. So if your dad was an Academy Award-winning actor, it just didn't really register as being terribly important. So I think when James was very successful, none of it, I just didn't quite get that it was so extraordinary. It was just your life, though. But you were living. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, it just seemed normal. Yeah, it's interesting, because I was reading a story about, you know, James's big break, quote-unquote, you know, comes in '82 when he's asked to score Star Trek II, the Wrath of Con, and he was brought in by Nicholas Mayer, because they couldn't deform, they couldn't afford Jerry Goldsmith anymore. And the story is that when Mayer came back to produce Star Trek 6, he couldn't afford James Horner anymore. He had grown so much since then that there was kind of a funny cycle to that. So it was kind of interesting. It must have been a lot of fun to see him, you know, to grow, to be the composer that he was. So when I had Sally Stevens on my podcast, she's saying, as I mentioned earlier, she's saying on a lot of his scores. She. She shared in my interview with her that she would go into the control room and see all these incredible toys and trinkets and color and movement and all this stuff. And she thought that that was part of the studio decor. And she thought, "Well, this is really interesting. I've never seen anything like this." And it wasn't until she saw the video tour that you get and I've seen that video and it's wonderful. I'll link it in the podcast notes where you took a camera crew through a tour of James' studio and it's just filled wall-to-wall floor-to-ceiling with these incredible toys and trinkets that he had been collecting. And it was until then that Sally realized, "James was bringing those things in the studio. Those were his things. This is fascinating." So tell us about his collection and his penchant for and desire for these toys and trinkets. Well, he was always a collector but it was Tateo. The studio itself kept the collection of stuff. A story of the studio and I think it tended to grow over time because people must have brought things in. But Lava Lamps was a central piece or things that moved and had lights. And for me, I would say the connection I make a little bit with James is there's something called a snoss-aloon or environment that is. I think that's how you pronounce it. It is, I believe, German but there are special environments made for autistic kids that are relaxing to them. That have many of the same characteristics of the kinds of materials that James would have which is glowing, floating colored lights as a. If you see one of those environments, you can understand that correlation. I think he just found it very relaxing and he worked with the same team, not always everybody exactly the same, but they all would bond around this. There are photographs of him in ridiculous outfits, guys for wearing masks and I don't know the directors would often be controlled to putting on some weird outfits. They would go around a lot and a lot of those special effects directors, they were particularly. I know you know Jim Johnson. I'm trying to think if I got that name right. Joe Johnson's name, but he was like that too. He came out of special effects or a Doug Trumbull. A Doug came out of special effects. He did this movie with Doug that Natalie would brainstorm. Natalie would dive on that movie. But Doug was like that. Like they would. Doug and James went to tractor poles together. These guys, which yeah, they were just like little boys. They were just in rockets and airplanes and they. they. And somehow James would get all the crew would start acting like they're five years old and. [laughter] But very serious when they're working. I mean, his Emily, our daughter, went saying for him on. I think the green chastel Christmas, she was in the children's choir. And she confessed to me here is later that she never actually sang. She just moved her lips. She said because he could hear everything in the room. And if you were slightly off in any way, he would hear it and she was terrified of getting held out. And she was terrified of him. Now, as his child, she would jump all over him and do whatever she wanted to. It was a little girl. But working for him, she said was absolutely terrifying. Because the journey, you know, the V&E's father would come out. Right. Point fingers and be punitive and fall you out. Wonderful story. Yeah. One of the things I've heard from Ron Hicklin, as well as I watched a video of Tommy Tedesco, a studio musician who really was James's guitar player of choice. But he would. they both talked about how if something went wrong, anywhere in the score, even if it was that, you know, bar 150 back to the top. And so the pressure in Tommy talks about this. He's like, I knew I was coming on, you know, bar 129. I needed to be ready. Because if I messed up, I'm going to have a room full of musicians because you've got a full orchestra there who would be looking at me with the scale. Because in he said it was because James wanted the feeling of the musicians playing together and how the music builds on itself. And you can't just pick it up in the middle and start, no, you want what leads up to that to get the full range of feeling that led into that moment. So that I think says a lot about his personality. And I could see maybe where he gets that from his dad. Yeah, he developed his methodology for working and it suited his mind in the way he worked and it produced the results he liked. And his players were subject to that. Well, he was a perfectionist. Ron Hickland described him as a perfectionist. And because of that, people really respected his work ethic. He wanted it to be as perfect as he could get it, which that's what he was hired for. And so you have to respect that. And I think that's true of any, I think artists themselves have a degree of sensory sensitivity, but I would put it that way, or aesthetic refinement that the audience is not going to have. The audience is going to understand generally they'll generally feel something, but they're not, they're not going to be aware that that feeling comes from very specific instruments or qualities that are, are very, very particular to the composer of the players. I'm so curious about the way that James would structure his, his composing. Was he more of a, I'm going to close myself in my studio. You'll, you know, I'll see you for lunch or just kind of walk us through his routine when I know he was always working, but what was his routine like when he was in the midst of a certain kind of work? He was in the midst of scoring something. Yes, he was always working. That's why we never noticed any difference. Right, right. He usually got up very early in the morning, four, eight, really start working. And he was the kind of person that woke up. All systems go to Chipper and the Lert. And it was like unbelievably irritating. It was non-morning people I can understand that. Yes. And because you know that I think you're either an early morning person if you're a musician or you're a late night person. And I really think that the ambient noise level outside, which the rest of us probably don't hear, it's just higher that the airplanes, the traffic, there's just a hum in the background that's bigger during the normal business hours. But we all feel it on a quiet Sunday afternoon that it's quieter outside. So he would work very early and he'd work all day to even come in for lunch. I think he might have come down to the house for lunch. And he'd work till about, I think three or four in the afternoon, depending. This is not if there's some big crunch. Right. Or if he's got to rewrite something. So he'd work and then he'd do phone calls. When he was too tired to actually focus on his work, he would make all his business calls. And then at a certain time of day, he would refuse to take any phone calls because he couldn't handle any, he would just run out of steam and he just couldn't handle any negative news. He would say, no bad news after four. We're out of here. And he hated being interrupted. He could handle one or two interruptions. And I know it as a painter, I would say the same thing. And anybody who's a creative person in their flow, you can regroup once or twice. But by the third time, you're defeated. So he had a, he used to work clogs all the time. And so he would take off his shoes when he entered the studio and they'd sit on the front step of his entry door. And so everybody knew or he'd leave them in the front of the house, appears in the house. So we always knew where he was by where his shoes were. Wow. We live on a big property and so the house was some distance from the studio. And everyone knew not to knock them. I mean, if you knocked on that studio door and you didn't need to do that, you, the shadow fellow compounded you. So nobody bothered him. And of course I totally understand myself. So. And he worked, do you want to say, did he ever take a day off? Let's say, did he ever take a day off? I don't think he ever did. I really might have not worked all day. this, you know, that is really it. Sure, and I would imagine when that type of artist, it must be particularly hard to turn your brain off because you know the pieces that you need to write and you probably have elements and pieces of melody in your head and to lose them is a grave sin. So I would imagine the feeling, the pressure, I need to get this out of my head and onto my instrument or onto paper so I don't lose the little pieces and bits that I have. So I couldn't understand why he would need to continue to work. Yeah, I think he liked it. If you look at his work schedule, he was doing way too many movies at the same time and I don't quite honest with these studios. I think they were exclusive contracts that somehow overlapped. I remember his music editor telling me, he said to James once, "No, we can't do that. You can't be in London on this date because we're going to be in a studio city the day before and James said to him, "Oh, just don't worry about it." And the editor was like, "Oh my God, this is crazy." But he said, "You know, James was right." Because the thing is he was one of those people, if you think about what the way his music was, he could keep a lot of information. It is mind at the same time. He was sort of, you know, like those subot people. So there was so much information going on and I think he was dependent on this complexity to feel calm. It's what I think. Because it got worse as he got older. He's got more and more complicated. And you know, the instrumentation, the variety of music, the more stuff he could have going on, which continued in his hobbies than as his career slowed down, his hobbies became these impossible complicated hobbies. It was exhausting, but not for him. You know, for him it was calming. The complexity was calming. Not so much for me. That's very fascinating. And you know, as where he was, they were such massive films. So I don't know. I would feel so much pressure from that. Okay, I'm working doing a score for James Cameron on this film. He's a sort of avatar. It's such a massive project. I can't imagine feeling the pressure of working on something so monumental, but maybe he had just worked his way up and just was used to it, I guess. Well, I think Jim was difficult to work for because he kept, he was very hands on and kept making last minute changes. And so things have to be rewritten. And you know, when James started writing music, he wrote in the time when you got six weeks to do a score, was all recorded in a studio. It was not digitally yet. If they cut it, they cut physically edited the tape. They literally physically cut things. So the soundtrack would have been the snippets of things that they'd take back together. So the process itself was slower. And he got trained to that process. And once it became where you had to do mockups, I think James really didn't like that because he really essentially did not want the director mucking around in the music. It's just very funny. I mean, Joe Johnson, I think, got a great score out of Jake. You could get a great score out of him as a filmmaker if you left him alone. The more picky you got, the more you got hung up and less magical. It wasn't helpful for the director to be involved too much. And also James, he was very arrogant when he was younger. He got a little more humble as he got older. So he could take in a bit more. But I think some of those director composer relationships were just really, really wonderful for him. I mean, you mentioned Nick Meyer before. And I think working for Nick for James was just a wonderful experience. Nick was really, I would say very nurturing and supportive and kind of got James settled and off in the world. And then some people he would have really unpleasant experiences with. I can never work again for that. And now, sure. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, that's unfortunate. And I can see how, you know, a director would come through. Okay, I want to cut the scene here now. Well, okay, I've composed a piece to fit the original length of that scene that you gave me. And now, you know, before things were digital, now I have to kind of reimagine this or figure out how to shorten it and still say what we want to say musically, but now make it fit a shorter scene. And so you do that again and again and again and again and again and again again with the same film. I can imagine how that would just be come on already. Yeah. Frustrating. Yeah. Also, James, part of the effectiveness of his scores was where he spotted that music. It was done in a certain way. And his, what a lot of even, you know, directors didn't realize that it, whatever his gift was, in many ways, James could get a scene to play with a much deeper emotional resonance. And I could see a film before the score was in and then after a scene before and after. And you're talking about a scene that seems a little clumsy and you're not very connected and you don't know what's going on. You know, okay, that's an okay movie to something that is completely compelling. Right. But the director's thinking it's the melody or it's what they might consider to be the elements that make this score successful or not necessarily the case. And it's a very esoteric body of knowledge to have. So, um, and I think like any artistic, I mean, that's the thing about Hollywood is there's this huge attempt to make it form you lay it because you can make a determined profit. It's profit driven. It's a, it's a, you know, it's a profit making enterprise. But what we all love most about, and is the magic of it. It's the poetic life of Hollywood. It's the way it talks about especially America in this kind of, the idealization of democracy and the narrative stories of the United States and our history and, I mean, the Western, which is romanticized highly romanticized in the accurate version of the West. But, um, so the creative part of filmmaking is what we all really want. The studios need to make money. You know, and I think once the studios became more corporate, I think it's impossible or it's more difficult. And if you think like of a director like Jim Cameron, he is a complete otor. He needs to have control over all the pieces and he puts it all together in his way, in his mind. And if you're this poor studio, the guy, you can't get him in a box and you can't get the money boxed and you can't, you just have to keep spending more and more money and hoping it works out. Yeah. It's like just a big gamble for a studio or something like that. And, um, but those are the films we all really want to go see are the really creative, unique visions that someone has. Yeah, that's really interesting. And then you hear, you know, uh, Joe Johnson talk about his work on rocketeer and a couple of times as you were on that online meeting as well, I, I didn't direct James. He knew what to do. I stayed out of his way. They talked about when they would plot out and you know, when he wanted certain cues to begin, but other than that, he multiple times said, I knew, I knew better. I just needed to let James be James and let him work his magic and what came out with that was a remarkable score that's extraordinarily memorable and fun. And, um, so it's interesting. The, I'm sure James had to navigate working with different types of directors. Those that were very controlling from every little aspect of those are like James, go be James and we will love what you come up with. So quite interesting bookends he must have had to work with. Yeah, I think that directors that would be, he was very childlike in case you didn't realize, but I think Joe at that age was very young himself, mostly what Joe and James would talk about are Volvo car engines because they drove both to cars, no Volvo's. But that's from my memory. But, you know, Joe was, they were, he was a young man. kids, they're young men and they like technicalities and machinery and rockets. So I think those kind of directors would be wonderful for James, a director that's super mature. Adult would be a little more challenging I think for James, but I don't know it's kind of generalizing. With James creating such a large body of work, are there any pieces, maybe any scores in general that you have found particularly meaningful that you've maybe gravitated towards or when you heard them like Bob, this is this one resonates with me in anything like that for you. You know, for me, oddly it's the smaller scores for the smaller things that I don't know why that is, but they're more like him, that's more like who he was as a person. He did to Gillian on her. Oh, on her 37th birthday. Yeah, great score. That was one of my favorite favorite scores. And you know, that little Spitfire grill film and he did another one. Oh, Spitfire grill is so funny. I have all of these CDs. In fact, I remember my wife looking at our CD collection one time. She goes, you have a lot of James Horner CDs. I'm like, I took it as a compliment. Yes, I do. I have both of those on discs still. Yeah, I could get that those little pictures that were moody and which was really kind of his temperament. He himself was sort of always, I mean, he was playful and fun and manic at times. The complicated that he's generally and I see a kind of, you know, a moody guy like a wistful, slightly melancholic temperament. Comes with the artistic mind very often. That's really neat that you look at some of those smaller pictures as some of the most meaningful I think. In many ways, I'm the same way, although like something like Legends or Braveheart which I think you should have gotten a Academy Award for. Those are larger, particularly Braveheart, but I'm with you. Some of the smaller ones, I think Field of Dreams is actually one of his most notoriously beautiful understated but fits the film so well. It's a very intimate score. So that's neat to hear you say that those are a little more like who James was. That's actually very interesting. They're more like him. When you pass away people would say, "Well, you always have the music and my daughter and I would just give them day-garized." Like, it's not the music for us. That's you guys. I mean, it's not that we're not a tad, we prefer the person to the music. But I think that's probably why I like those scores. Is there more like who you was? Yeah. Did you ever join him in the studio when during any of those recording sessions? Yeah. Before my kids were born, I always spent a lot of time in the studio. I spent a lot of time. I would just, I don't know if you've been in a recording studio for a big movie with an orchestra. It's just kind of oddly relaxing. You're in another world and this thing is going on and on and on all the rehearsals and then they do the fun at the takes and there's a little chitchat about it and it's I would just sort of hang out in the studio a lot. I don't know. I was, you know, doing like knitting or something. Yeah, absolutely. You just had, it was just really enjoyable. It's not unlike live act. I mean, when you have a really big orchestra, when there's like the LSO or something, that's like live action where, oh, you know, all the stuff, exciting stuff is going on, but it's also kind of meditative because they just rehearse and rehearse and rehearse this stuff over and over again. It's like a concert. Yeah. It's like in a second concert and I don't know, you know, I was in my school, a little school orchestra and chorus. It's like being in, it's an activity that comes with making music. Yeah. So it's neat. So as someone, you know, who became a fan of James's music before he was receiving so many accolades, it was great to see him be recognized for so much of his work. So, you know, along with awards from film associations like BAFTA and satellite awards and the Chicago Film Association, Saturn Awards, James won six Grammys, two Golden Gloves and of course the biggest of all two Academy Awards. But as you mentioned, behind all of those big awards, all of those big films was one man sitting at a piano. And I think that is such a great way to remember James because it all started with just him and his piano. Yeah. I mean, I know he liked the recognition. He really hated, you know, you go to those awards ceremonies, you don't know who's going to win. Right. And you're dressed up in these black typings. Right. And then you have to go really early, it's an L.A. You have to go with some godly hour and you know, this thing and it's meet all these people and he was a really private person. I mean, very, very private. So already that was a huge, just even if he had to go to it and it wasn't his award that was off, it would be really hard for him. So he just, I think these those award ceremonies were not very pleasant experience, then except for when you win and then it's pleasant for that evening and then you're back to work again or whatever, you know. Okay, I've got to go to work today because I've got deadlines to hit. I can't add a can imagine that now. The Titanic period, that must have been really interesting, you know, as we, as you look back at that, that it's quite unique, it's the fourth highest-selling movie soundtrack of all time in the highest-selling mostly symphonic soundtrack in history. And of course, the culminated with two Academy Awards. What was that time period like for you guys? Because it was really when at that point with, of course, the huge Celine Dion song, James kind of became a household name, people knew who he was. And oftentimes people don't know who the composers of films are because they don't really think about the music generally speaking. But now all of a sudden people knew James Horner, what was that? What was that like for you guys in that period? It actually is not a good experience. I hate to say it. I think people imagine it's this amazing thing. But when that happens, all sorts of people are want to be a friend that you don't realize. That's why they want to be a friend to be a son of how they think you're got this magic to you. And then all sorts of people start to sue you because like out of nowhere, this is, I had a neighbor that was an actor, I discussed it with him. He had the same experience. Once you get over that horizon of kind of fame on a bigger level, then you get noticed places, which wasn't too bad because he didn't have, you know, people wouldn't, he didn't perform so people wouldn't know. But when he'd get made in a setting, it's for a person that's private, it's slightly terrifying to be honest with you. And then I think for him, he just got really, it was like too much grandiosity. And I think it really, it was just a lot emotionally to contend with. And then it goes away over time and then you have the shadow, there's sort of an Oscar shadow where people don't work as much after. And then you start up again. But it's not, I mean, it is, it's wonderful, it's amazing, it's exciting, it's incredibly exciting. And it's fun in many ways. But it's also very intense. So I'm not sure, I think it's a lot to contend with. Yeah, it's a mix of things, things it sounds like. Yeah, it is a mix. You mentioned the idea of an Oscar shadow, I'm not familiar with that, could you explain that? Oh, I think people, it's, there's a, I have to read an article about it maybe a year or so after. But let's say you've just won the award for Best Actress. And now you're up for other movies and other people are perhaps reluctant to hire you because well, if you're not good in the next movie, then clearly it's the director's fault or it's the filmmakers fault. If you're this great and the movie doesn't do well, it's a hard act to follow. I see. For the next set of people making a film. So you know it. It has a, it's complicated and a bit. Sure. And you become then a affiliate and an associate. Do you want the guy that did the Titanic to do? Right. Is that what you want to affiliate with your roomie? So it's a little more complicated than I think people suspect. I think the whole thing is Hollywood is complicated. It is sure. The whole reputation, the whole idea of some of these reputation and then things happen in their life and then they get, it can be positive. People think it's positive, it's good, which it is good. But they can get a negative shadow in their life too and then that drags around them. So it just gets, I think it's just a, I know it sounds like such a great life to be a celebrity or to be successful in Hollywood. But I think it's in many ways is a very uniquely difficult life. I can understand. I can see how you, you're a multi-academy award winner for some of the, well, Titanic. That was the biggest film of all time. And then Avatar, I would imagine that, that would impact the type of projects that came James's way because how could you be a director of a, or producer of a smaller film and think, oh, James Horner, yeah, he's Mr. biggest films in the world score guy. So I would imagine it creates a filter of sorts. I had never thought of this until hearing you talk about it, it would create a filter of the types of things that maybe would come as way. Is that pretty accurate? I think it, in a way, but I think James sought out a lot of, he knew what everything was being made in Hollywood at all times. He kept track of everything that was being made. And so he would try for a while, he worked hard to get these smaller pictures because he wanted to more, interact more intimate scores. And I think, you know, how many chase sequences do you want to write? That wouldn't be something he'd be anxious to do more of. So he was always looking for those sort of more poetic films. And I do think over time he got tired of the whole, I mean, the thing is a composer, like James, he would work on many films in it. A director is going to work on one film for five years, three years. So by the time James is 40, he knows more about post-production in this part of a film than any director he's working with. So it's, I don't know, I think it got a little teed, honestly, I think he got bored with the whole thing. That's an important point. Yeah, understandable. I could see that. And you know, it's a lot like you have these big actors that sometimes will want to return to the stage to get a little closer to the origins of the craft, to get off the grand scale of things and do something that's more intimate, maybe more meaningful, certainly more meaningful to them. So I could understand, I had never thought of that in the world of composition, but it makes a lot of sense. And that's really interesting to hear. Are there any other moments, you know, as you had this long, you know, we're part of James's ascent and everything, you know, obviously Academy Awards big moment, but are there any other moments that maybe have stuck out with you, stayed with you, maybe people that you got to meet or places you got to go because of what James did, anything that has stuck out to you? Yeah, I had it. I ended up having a really great life. I have to say, there were parts that were difficult, but getting to go back and forth between, we spent a lot of time back and forth between the states and London. And then a lot of the people he became friendly with are really, I really enjoyed. And I enjoyed a lot of the, I still to this day really like musicians as, but they tend to be more classical. I know people that aren't classical so much now, but I really like the musicians. I love the people James work with and a lot of the people he works with, I'm still friendly with. I just love having, meeting them and getting together. There's a certain sensibility of these musicians. You know, I had a friend whose husband was a TV composer and she was the one that set to me. Well, you know, musicians are there like a different breed. And I said to her at one point, I said, you are right. And I've worked it out. There are a lot more like dolphins because they're not so, you know, they just think on a different level. And you know, I recently read that the local native, our native indigenous tribe here was the Chumat where we live and part of that California. Their creation myth is that they were, they evolved or they started on the islands off the coast. And then as they, you know, there's this before the ice age ended and is the ice age ended, the waters melted in the seerow. So the islands used to be part of the mainland. But anyway, they, as they flew, they came to the mainland on a rainbow bridge and the ones that didn't get across fell into the water and became dolphins. That's it. To myself. There you have it because classical musicians and James was very much like this. They have a certain sensibility and a certain, they're made a certain way. I am not one. I am not a musician. I don't practice. I played, but I would only play until I could, until there wasn't too much practicing about. But I just, those people, I feel like that, it's like knowing James's father. It's not so much the glamour or the excitement or the specialness of the life. It's the kind of people that were in those worlds were artists and, and they were fortunate that they had, could earn a living and do well. But being able to live wouldn't know other artists and created people. If you're of that mindset yourself is really all that matters. You know, that sort of your people, those are your people. Yeah, it's interesting because it really does all come back to relationships the way we interact with one another. That's what stands, that's what lasts. That's very interesting. At the end of the day, when you're young, it's about accomplishment. A lot of it in success. And then as you get older, that, that part of you, I guess it gets, I don't know, I don't know what happens, but as you get older, you realize it's all ephemeral. It's all ephemeral. You may be Mr. Famous now, but in the 200 years, nobody's going to know who you are. So now if you have the two Academy Awards and your brother's a primary school teacher, you may feel more important than him, but you know, that's in a flicker of time, you will be all the same. That's a great reminder. So we're just about done. I have just a few more questions for you. So I remember watching the video tour of the studio. And I think it towards the end of that video you'd mentioned that at some point you would have to kind of pack those things up. What's the current state of all those items? Well, first of all, I just need to give a shout out to that filmmaker who's a friend in neighbor at mine called Paul Goldsmith. He made that film. He organized the whole thing. It's beautiful. He directed it and the way that film is so touching is because of him. But I know this is sort of crazy. One of James's other interests was minerals specimens, which are naturally occurring minerals on matrix. Let's say it could be a crystal like celestite or a metal, gold or silver. And so he collected all these things and it kind of became a problem at one point. There were a lot of them and they got sent off to the Museum of Natural History in Houston, really. Which is a fantastic museum, by the way, that museum. And so I still have a lot of things there. Those, this is very funny. James was very private and so he has some specimens in their collection there. And they don't have his name on it. But now that he's no longer with us, as punishment for him leaving now. No, just at the level. There's something up with it. Like, perverse, I know. But you know, he was very private. So I said to them, I went to visit him. I said, oh, you can put his name on everything. Go ahead. Put his name on them. And then they said, well, actually we're redoing the museum. We're gonna have fun. five little set ups at both separate rooms. And we could have a James Harner exhibit. I said, "Absolutely." And they could control, was the director of the news, he answers, to me, well, we could have some of those things from the studio. And I said, "Absolutely, what do you want?" (laughing) So, which is, he doesn't realize this, but it's kind of a, I've been, I thought for a long time, the studio is still intact by and large. I've cleaned out a lot of the drawers of stuff, so, but one main room is still pretty much intact. But I cannot keep it that way forever. Something's gonna happen to it. And should it be preserved as if making a museum or something? It's so complicated. So I'm sort of hoping Joel will have this little James Harner world recreation at the Museum of Natural History in London, in Texas, in Houston. - That would be so wonderful. So, I'm wondering, and I asked this question, I had a very young composer on, lives out in your neck of the woods, an artist composer by the name of Trevor Kowalski. And I asked him this question, I'm curious if this is something I've been curious with about a composer with James. Like if he was watching a television show or a movie, and would he or would he hear a cue from another composer? Would he comment on it like, "Ooh, that's a beautiful cue right there." Or, "Do you ever experience anything like that or walk out of a movie?" He said, "Wow, that's a great score." - Doug, he wouldn't listen to anybody else's music. - Oh, really? Okay. - Except for, you know, long ago music, I think he didn't wanna get things mixed in, that, you know, and I also don't ever know how he knew what he knew. He knew a lot of stuff that never understood how he knew it all. He didn't seem to be reading any of the books or studying any of this stuff. I don't know. Now he didn't really, I don't think, I've been, I think when he's younger, he listened to a lot of composers, and he'd be familiar with the style of people's work, but I don't think he would listen too much to anybody else. - Well, last question, sir. How should we remember James? How should we look back and hold him in memory? - Oh, that's a kind of difficult question to answer. - Yeah. - I don't know. Honestly, if you want my honest opinion, I always feel like he's still around. - Yeah. - Yeah. - I just always feel like he's still around. I mean, part of that is honestly, the music plays in all sorts of places. - Mm-hmm. - I mean, it can be really unnerving. I took a hiking trip through the southern part of Japan on something called the Kumano Kudo, which is a pilgrimage hike, and I mean, some remote village somewhere, where there's a shrine in the little hotel they have some music on, and on comes a piece of James's. And you're just like, wow, this is kind of strange. And so it kind of is woven in the tapestry of music, or background music a lot. And you know, he was just always that kind of guy that he was sort of ethereal anyway. So it always seems like he's around. You'd think at this point. - Sure. - And we had been separated for many years when he died. We lived in separate homes. So I, you'd think I'd give it up at this point, but it's just, he was just a very, he had just a really strong presence and personality. I, so I just feel like he's always, I mean, honestly, I'll tell you a story that is, this is the typical story. - Yeah. - He loved engines, let's say. So he loved car engines. And we were told my daughter and I, and she eventually grew up and drove. We only could use shell or chevron gas in our cars. And we're like, oh, okay, why? Go do, ever put that other kind of gas in your car. And it was told to you in a way that you felt like something bad would happen to you. And if you were in a place where you're running out of gas and you couldn't get the right gas, it would be like, you know, it's kind of scary thing to do, but you'd do it. And we both realized we had this thing like after, you know, how long is it even dead? I said, no, I still never use any other kind of gas. And she said, me too. Like we're scared, something battle happened. And it was eventually I realized that it just mattered. He doesn't keep a car more than a one or two years anyway. It's not like it mattered. But it wasn't for the sake of, it was for the sake of the car. You wouldn't harm a beautiful motor by mistreating it. Like the superstition. We're still superstitious about a lot of stuff. And I still haven't gotten rid of, I mean, I gave his papers to UCLA, but that's as far as I've gotten in terms of doing things. It's really, I mean, I need to get more stuff taken care of. But it's-- That would be tough emotionally. I mean, it's just very lucky. I'm just just very lucky to have this share part of my life or a lot of my life with this individual who is so quirky. And very-- It difficult, you know, in real life many times. As I'm sure many composers watch. Sure. But it's us too. Or children. For children. It's just a unique experience. Just a very unique experience. Well, sir, I can't tell you how much I appreciate your time. Thank you a million times for joining me. And as you could tell, James and his music have meant a lot to me and still do. And so it's been a real honor for me to sit down with you and hear these wonderful stories. And really, I think help people to see a side of James that perhaps they hadn't and really could lend some understanding about a lot of his composition and the world he came from. So thank you so much for your time. Oh, no, thank you. It was a pleasure for me. Oh, good. And for everybody listening, thank you for tuning in. And if you've enjoyed this interview with Sarah Horner, please share it with your friends on your socials. Ratings and reviews are always really, really appreciated and very helpful for an any podcast or like myself. Thank you for joining us. And I look forward to walking another stretch or road with you. So keep your bags packed. And join us on our next journey to the stage. And that is wrap. [MUSIC PLAYING] [Music]