EP #73- Brain Food: The Basics of Nutritional Psychiatry with Elizabeth Gunner, Registered Dietitian

(gentle music) The gut brain connection is a few different, you know, things that we could talk about, but it mainly in the literature, they talk about the vagus nerve, which is just the nerve that runs from your brain to your gut. And so that's essentially, you know, the connection there, is just a communication pathway between what's happening in our GI system, what we've been eating, what we've been consuming in our brain. Welcome back to another episode of Every Day in Dorphins. This week's topic is really fascinating to me because I find that when I take note of the foods I'm consuming and the different types of food I'm eating, I start to notice how it can really have an impact on not only my physical health, but more so my mental health and how I'm feeling and my mood. Little did I know there was a term that describes the science behind how our food can impact our brain chemistry and our mental health. And that is nutritional psychiatry. I'm so thrilled to have Elizabeth Gunner come onto the podcast this week to talk all about what nutritional psychiatry is and what types of food we can eat to best support our gut brain connection. Liz is a registered dietician. She studied nutritional science at Cornell University and she will be attending the School of Public Health at Harvard this coming fall. She has her own blog, she's a health and food equity advocate, and she's been featured on news channels like Fox to discuss all topics related to nutrition. Hopefully there's a lot you can take away from this episode, so I'm so excited for you all to hear it, but before we get into it, make sure to like, rate, and review this podcast on whichever listening platform you prefer. Hi, Elizabeth, thank you so much for coming on to the podcast. Yeah, I'm so excited, thanks for having me. I am so fascinated by the connection between our mental health and the food that we consume. And I did not know that there was a term that basically describes that relationship, which is called nutritional psychiatry. So I would love for you to start off by talking a little bit about what that turn means with your background in nutrition, being a registered dietician, and now working at cerebral. I know we've connected offline about this intricate connection between the foods we consume and how we feel. So I'd love for you to start off by just talking a little bit about that relationship and how this term nutritional psychiatry came to be. Yeah, nutritional psychiatry was new to me too. I think I found out a couple of years ago or something. And it got me really interested because I've had obviously my own mental health issues, struggles, trials, tribulations, like I feel like most people have. And being a registered dietician, I'm inherently interested in nutrition and how that affects our body. But I think recently the research in the literature has really been delving into how nutrients affect our brain and our brain chemistry. And so that's essentially what nutritional psychiatry is. It's how do the nutrients in our food affect the brain chemistry that is currently going on? And how can we help support a better and better functioning brain chemistry, depending on what mental health issue you're going through food? So-- and it's a combination, too. Like some people-- you know, schizophrenia and different worse severe mental illnesses definitely still need to medicate. But there's some illnesses that can benefit a lot from your nutrition like anxiety, depression, things like that. And these are common mental illnesses that people experience hundreds of millions of people are experiencing every single day. So that's essentially what it is. This is just nutrients and how that affects our brain. I think that's really fascinating. And especially when we look at certain mental illnesses like anxiety and depression, I know that when I'm feeling anxious, I tend to crave a lot of sugar and like sweets and dessert. And so I find myself constantly going to the freezer and looking for ice cream. Like that is my vice or chocolate or both. And then it's like when I'm constantly consuming these really sugary foods, I think in the moment it makes me feel really great. But then I start to feel really not great about myself. And I start to feel really heavy in my body and sluggish. And then because I start to feel that way, and then I have this gill, I'm like, oh, I'm going to go reach back for more ice cream or chocolate or whatever the sugar craving may be. And it can be this really toxic cycle. And it's odd because you think, oh, if I'm going to go and have these foods, it's actually going to make me feel better. So you feel like you're doing something, quote, unquote, good for your mental health. But actually what's happening is that these types of foods that you're putting into your body already in a heightened state of stress and anxiety are actually worsening your mental health. And I think sugar in particular is really interesting, too, because there's a lot of research out there about how sugar is even more addictive than cocaine, or maybe on par with cocaine. Yeah, there's this book that I just recently read. That's the real actually provided for me, which was really nice. But it's called, this is your brain on food, I believe. And this is like a Harvard trained-- I think she went to Harvard Medical School for a psychiatry, if I'm remembering correctly. And there's a quote in a book that I just sent to my pod at 3.0 yesterday actually. So this is funny that we're having this conversation. But essentially the quote goes something like this. It says that when there's trauma and when there's angst and when there's unbalanced in your brain, and it's essentially on fire, all it wants is comfort in some form. And quick, easy, simple carbs, quick, comfort food. That's just kind of easy to eat. Even snack foods, if you think of just something with minimal ease, is comforting. And actually, I was just speaking to a client today. And I was like, I want you to try to dissect how that's serving you. Because I feel like so many times we think, OK, I'm eating this. And it's so bad for me. And I'm coping this way and blah, blah. But you're doing it for a reason. You're doing it because this mentality of either eating and comfort food or for you, eating ice cream chocolate, it's serving you in some way. So how is it serving you? Is it providing you comfort? Is it making you feel more secure? Like, what is that service? And can you get that service from another thing? Or do you want to keep getting it from that coping mechanism that you're currently doing? And that's the beauty of life is we have freedom of choice and we can change. So just kind of diving into what's serving you? Why am I doing what I'm doing? And slowing down and being more mindful of that, because I feel like we just live in autopilot 24/7. Totally. I completely agree. I feel like I'm always operating on autopilot. And that's horrible because all I do on this podcast is preach about being mindful and being in the present moment. And of course, it's so much harder to take your own advice. But I think it's sort of that we just need this constant reminder about how to tap back into the present moment. And I love that you brought up this concept around being more mindful because I know there's this phrase around mindful eating, like mindful consumption. I'm sure you're familiar with that term. And I'd love for you to talk maybe a little bit more about mindful practices around eating and how that can help you engage with foods that maybe people go to when seeking comfort in a healthier way. I like to think of mindful eating as just becoming fully attentive and aware with the food that you're eating. So whether that's a salad or a candy bar, it doesn't matter. As long as you're sitting with that food and you're fully attentive to it. So what does that mean? That means being fully attentive to the smell, the texture, if it's something that you can hold, the taste, of course, the aroma, the environment that you're in when you're eating, whatever you're eating. And then also the taste as it changes. Like how does a texture change when you bite into it versus when you chew it versus when you swallow it? Like really immersing yourself in the experience of eating and allowing yourself the full pleasure of eating. So that's essentially what mindful eating is. It's taking a step back. It's slowing down and it's paying attention to all the environmental and cues and of food while eating. And essentially what that can do is a few different things. First, it helps you to be more satisfied with the food that you're eating. Because if you're sitting down and you're eating, let's say a dark chocolate bar or something, if you're really sitting there, I think of like a dev commercial when the girl is like slowly eating the chocolate and making it look so good. That's kind of what it is. It's like you're sitting down. You're really immersing yourself in that experience and you're like enjoying it. You're sitting there and you're enjoying whatever it is that you're eating. Versus just like scarfing it down, not even remembering, how many chocolate pieces you had and turning on an Netflix show and not really even paying attention to it. Those are two totally different things. And oftentimes you're going to feel more satisfied when you're being fully attentive and when you're sitting down with the food, you're actually, along your self-time to enjoy whatever it is that you're eating versus like I said, the latter, which is what most of us do, which is on our phone, on social media, on TV, whatever, and eating and not really paying attention. Just kind of mindlessly putting things in our body. So it's going to allow you to be more satisfied and feel like, OK, I had what I wanted. Especially if it's dessert because we're craving that dessert for a reason. And so allowing yourself to actually enjoy it is super important. So that's the first thing. Secondly, it allows us to, again, to have that mindful practice. So almost like you know in yoga, meditation, we're sitting down and we're really paying attention all the things, all of the cues, and slowing down and being present in the moment instead of thinking of what you had yesterday and thinking of what your boss wants you to do today. And having the internal chatter instead just quieting that and just living in the present and slowing down. So it allows you to form a mindfulness practice within everything that you do, whether that's meditation, yoga, or eating. So just kind of making it all kind of, synchronized together. And then it also just helps you to form a healthier relationship with food. Because you're sitting down, you're mindful eating your food, maybe you're even having it with friends. Maybe you're sitting down at a table with your friends and there's, I don't know, light music in the background, the candle burning, and you're having great conversation, you're laughing, and you're really present and attentive with your food and with the people around you. Like that's such a more pleasurable experience in my mind than in my car, scarfing down a protein bar, in traffic, having road rage, you know, like those are just totally different eating environments and ways of looking at in a consuming food. And one just seems a bit more like helpful for your overall mind and body versus the other, if that makes sense. That anecdote that you shared around just being in a car and like scarfing down a protein bar was so vivid in my mind because it just reminded me of so many times when I was in college and I felt really rushed around dinner time in particular. Like I didn't feel like I ever had time to sit down and just like fully enjoy my dinner because I had to rush to an event at night or I had to go study or I had to go to the gym or I had to go home and shower and get ready for something out like there was just always so many things happening and it never really allowed me to like slow down and sit back and like enjoy the meals I was having. And it's funny because when I went abroad, when COVID hit, so I was really supposed to be abroad for this semester but then of course COVID hit and was sent home March of 2020. But when I was there for the short time being, I remember every single night my roommate and I who I'm still really good friends with to this day, we would cook together and we would sit down and we would just enjoy our meal, like our dinner meal. And it was such a nice change of pace from the semester prior when I was like so stressed in doing a million different things and like life was really hectic and I never really felt like I had the luxury to sit down and enjoy what I was eating and then come spring when I was studying abroad in Scotland and I could cook and I could just sit and take an hour and a half, maybe two hours every night to really just enjoy my meal and the company I was sharing it with, like that was so special and I think it really helped me to cultivate more of a mindful eating practice. I also think that with mindful eating, you, since you're eating more slowly, you know when to stop, like you know when your hunger cues are gone and your full cues are like there and it's signaling to you, I'm actually full now, I don't need another serving or I don't need to go back for some more dessert. So I think that's also like a benefit, I would say, of like mindful eating as well. - No, I definitely agree. It reminds me of a tool that we use sometimes in intuitive eating called the Hunger Impolone's Tracker or Hunger Impolone's Scale, where essentially it's just a scale and one would be I'm starving, 10 or 5, whatever the scale is on would mean. I'm so stuff, I'm almost nauseated and being in between that scale. So not getting way too hungry where you're you know starving and then you over consume but also not stuffing yourself so full every single time. Another thing I was gonna ask you when you told that story is, did you notice better digestion and like less bloating and what else do you notice when you were having that more mindful cooking practice with your roommate? - That's a great question. To be honest, it's been now almost I guess two years since that semester. So I haven't really thought a lot about that time in a while but I do think that my digestion was a bit better because I was just eating more slowly and I was actually sitting down to enjoy the food rather than just feeling rushed and scarfing it down and also cooking definitely is a healthier option and I definitely think that cooking more instead of eating out a ton helped with that. But I haven't thought about it really that recently. So I can't say for certain that my digestion was like completely on track but I do think also, it was definitely kind of like an adjustment like my body was adjusting to be in a different place and just being in a different environment. I also was like really sick on and off while I was abroad which when I think about it now, I'm like was this COVID? I don't know. It probably wasn't like who knows but I think a lot of changes were just happening in that time period but in terms of like my digestion, I do think that by engaging with those more mindful eating practices it did help like my body. So and you know it's something maybe I could even try today or encourage my listeners to do is if you're like at home or you're in like a pretty stable and steady environment, maybe try doing this practice and see how your digestion changes 'cause I think you know a lot of people also suffer from like IBS and other gut issues and I think mindful eating could actually be a really simple and easy way to kind of help mitigate those issues that a lot of young people face. Definitely and slowing down and chewing your food too can help with the digestion. That's why I was asking about that 'cause yeah, I see a lot of people implement mindful eating they're like wow my digestion is so good, I'm not as bloated, I don't feel as nauseous after meals. Like I feel so much better and I'm like yeah, because you're slowing down and you're chewing it and you know you're being present. So it's as simple as that which we often overlook but it's a great reminder. I wanna go a little bit back to this concept around like the foods that we consume and how that actually affects our mental health because when we think about eating with other people it's you know an activity you can do with your loved ones, with your friends and there's a lot of joy and pleasure and happiness that comes out of sharing a meal with someone that you care about. And I think that's where you know these positive effects on our mental health can come into play when eating with other people but with nutritional psychiatry what's really interesting is that there's actual like certain foods that can turn on certain receptors in our body and in our brain and actually increase our levels of happiness and feelings of satisfaction just by the foods that we consume and what we choose to put into our body. And I know that there is a lot of literature around the gut brain connection and how a lot of serotonin lies like the production of serotonin lies in our gut. So with that being said, I'd love for you to talk a little bit more about like this gut brain connection and then how nutritional psychiatry kind of comes into play there. - Yeah it's so crazy because our body is so connected and I don't think that people realize that. Like what's happening in your toes even probably is somehow affecting your body and I'm sure yours down the line will some literature will come out on that you know. So everything in your body is communicating and we're highly sophisticated in how we function. I think that people forget that sometimes like it's crazy even us talking right now is a huge, you know if I were to explain it scientifically it would be like a long laundry list of reactions that I might take me like 20 minutes to explain and how I'm even communicating with you. So there's a lot of different you know, complex systems that our body has and some are not really that well understood even still. The gut brain connection is a few different you know things that we could talk about but it mainly in the literature they talk about the vagus nerve which is just the nerve that runs from your brain to your gut and essentially it shows a communication pathway. So different neurotransmitters from your gut will go up to your brain and say hey, this is what's going on in your gut in your brain the different neurotransmitters will go down to your gut and say hey, this is what's going on in your brain. So they communicate and it makes sense. Like it makes sense that our body would communicate with each other and make sure everything's okay. And so that's essentially you know, the connection there is just a communication pathway between what's happening in our GI system, what we've been eating, what we've been consuming in our brain and you can even think about things like hunger for example. There's different hormones like growl and leptin these you know different things that make us either feel hungry or make us feel full and satisfied and these hormones are produced you know with the communication of our gut with our brain. Like how would our brain know to say hey, stop eating or hey, I'm hungry. If it didn't have any communication with our gut in our stomach and things like that. And then yeah, for serotonin, the literature is a little bit sparse with that. Definitely there is a lot of serotonin produced in your gut. How much of it is utilized in the brain? I think is a little bit unclear at least from what I've seen and this has been a few months as I've looked into the literature. So you know how science is always changing, which is a good thing. But that doesn't mean that even if there's none of the serotonin in your gut is utilized in your brain that doesn't mean that it doesn't have another purpose. Like maybe the purpose is even bigger than bringing serotonin to your brain, I don't know. But yeah, so how can we keep a healthy gut is really what people should be focusing on. And I think that recent years the gut brain connection healthy gut has been way more trendy and cool, which is awesome. But essentially it's all the things you typically hear. So it's whole foods, plant-based foods with tons of fiber and fiber kind of acts like a broom, sweeten out all the stuff in your gut and getting it out when it needs to be out, keeping you regular, things like that. And then also it has a ton of nutrients, which also serve with a ton of different metabolic reactions within your body, from anything from creating ATP energy to like, you know, having a muscle contraction to providing, I don't know, glucose for your brain to think and talk, things like that. So just really important things, you know, live in life. So having a healthy gut that can actually process into those nutrients and distribute them is important. So just focusing on more whole plant-based foods, lean proteins, really important. Another few key nutrients that I was looking into was omega-3 fatty acids. So these are anti-inflammatory. So there's a ton of different kinds of fats. There's pro-inflammatory fatty acids, omega-6, and there's anti-inflammatory fatty acids, omega-3. We need both of them, so it's not that inflammation is bad. It's inflammation is good, actually, to some extent. But we're just getting way too much omega-6 versus omega-3. And really what the literature seems to be indicating is that it's a ratio that matters. So the ratio of omega-3 to omega-6, we actually need more omega-6 in the ratio than omega-3, but right now our ratio is way off. I think it's supposed to be, don't quote me, but I think right now it's like 26 to 1 when it should be like 3 to 1 or something. So 26 omega-6 versus 1 omega-3 when it should be really 3 or something omega-6 to 1 omega-3. Now again, since 2018, since I've been in college, I think that's what the ratio was, but definitely a fact-track me on that. But the narrative still stands is that we're getting just too much inflammation. So assuming more anti-inflammatory stuff could help too. And when we think about omega-3, I immediately think of salmon, for example. Are there any other specific foods that have a ton of omega-3 that are really good for us to consume that are anti-inflammatory and getting the right fatty acids in our body? Salmon is 100% one of the best sources of omega-3, any oily fish really. So could even be tuna as well, so salmon, tuna. People that have plant-based diets that don't consume seafood can consume things like flax seeds, chia seeds, pumpkin seeds, walnuts, so the nuts and seeds. Anything that you think is like fatty that has that more omega-3 substance in it would be beneficial. So even if you don't want to consume salmon, or you don't like salmon, you can get it from other sources. You can also take a omega-3 supplement if you don't like any of those options. But I would be worried because some of the omega-3 supplements have on the outside a capsule is coated with omega-6, which I don't know what the deal is with that. So just being careful with supplements, they're always a little tricky the supplement industry. So yeah, interesting. Go to a trusted doctor to find the correct omega-3 supplements is the moral of the story. And flax seeds are great because they're high in fiber. That's been something that's been recommended to me, like having flax seeds, pumpkin seeds. I love chia seeds. I love making chia seed pudding. It's one of my favorite recipes to make. And it's super easy. You can be really creative with it and just throw a ton of things in there. And I personally love the consistency. I think it's fun to eat. Not everyone loves it, but I think it's really fun. I like it too. I actually have a chia seed pudding recipe on my blog if anyone wants to go visit that. But you can find it anywhere. I mean, you don't have to go to my blog. You can just Google it. But I just love making chia seed pudding and having it for breakfast. It's just quick, easy, nice, get my omega-3s in. So are there any other types of recipes or foods that you would recommend for my listeners to enhance their mood and to actually kind of restore that serotonin production in their body. And just types of foods or recipes that people can make, things that people can eat that are actually eating in positive mental health. Yeah. Yeah. So other than the omega-3, which we talked about and it has the neuroprotective properties also helps prevent neurodegeneration. So really great. Other things, it just depends on what kind of mental thing you're going through for a stress, for example. Maybe you want to amp up on the antioxidants, which antioxidants help to fight these things called free radicals, which helps stress out our bodies even more. And so, antioxidants can be found in fruits and vegetables, dark leafy greens, even dark chocolate, which is a thumbs up for me because I love dark chocolate. So when you're stressed having those items, could be a good option. Again, this is going to vary per person, but as a general recommendation, could be a good option. Another kind of thing that I read in the literature is that low levels of DHA, which is a type of omega-3. So there's EPA, there's DHA, with in omega-3. And lower levels of that actually have been shown to lower the levels of melatonin production. So if you're having insomnia or if you're having anxiety related to insomnia, maybe you have a deficiency of DHA. So there's these different nutrients that cause these reactions that we don't really think about. So that could be a good insomnia thing or something to put into your supplement regimen. If you're having insomnia, magnesium is another good thing for sleep. Magnesium in general, I think most people are pretty deficient in. So finding a good source of magnesium, those darkly-beak greens have magnesium in there, all the plant foods. But also you could do a magnesium soak. So if you like bubble glass, you can put some magnesium in there. I really like doing that. Where can you buy that like a magnesium soak, salts, or whatever they are? Because that sounds great. So I-- OK, so I have-- I'm going to shout out one of my friends, her name's April Disher. She has a podcast called Better Health. And she had a person on who makes her own magnesium soak. And she explains all-- she's like the magnesium goat like guru. I think she lives in Colorado. But she has her own brand of magnesium. I actually haven't tried it yet. But April has tried it. And she's like, I felt so much more relaxed and I slept better afterwards. So I almost think of it. I mean, I haven't done it. But I've almost think of it as-- I don't know if you've ever been in one of those float tanks, but I absolutely love them. I love float tanks. I went a few times in college and it like-- oh my god. They're at first it's a little scary because it's sensory deprivation, right? You're like in this pod. It's pitch black. You can't see anything. You can't hear anything. You're like in an enclosed space. And you feel like you're going to-- I don't know. It's just very-- it's a very uncomfortable sensation at first, especially because you're-- it's so salty you're just able to float. And normally like you don't want to put your head back in the water because you think you made drown. But you can because it's so salty. But it is such a powerful practice and really restorative for your body, helps ease anxiety. I stand by floats. I love it. And I haven't done it in a while. And I need to get back. OK, let's do it again. I'm in New York. There's this place in Brooklyn that I absolutely love. And I think I have a discount there right now because I went so many times and they were like, here's a discount. I'm like thanks. But that's kind of what I imagine it as like-- once I do a flow, I sleep like a baby. I go home and I pass out. I always do it in the evening. And it really helps with my anxiety as well. So kind of think of it as like one of those types of things where you put it in your bath maybe at night. And it helps you to fall asleep and stay asleep at night. Again, I haven't done it yet. But just for what I've heard, it seems to be something that's helpful. Another vitamin that we mostly are all deficient, especially if you're in New York, or those non-sunny regions is vitamin D. So vitamin D, obviously we do get through direct sunlight, but it's also in foods. So salmon is a good source of vitamin D again. So I guess that's a recurring theme here. But there's other foods that have it too. There's fortified foods that have vitamin D things like that. And you can take a vitamin D supplement. I take one in the winters. So that is a supplement that I would probably just recommend especially in the winter time. Ageoaks are another form of vitamin D and mushrooms, by the way. And mushrooms also have selenium. And so do Brazil nuts, yes. Which is another nutrient that helps with our mental well-being, helps to sleep better, function better, decrease our stress, things like that. And then other than that, as far as the foods go, the last thing I did want to mention is fermented foods. So these have been up and coming, have been cool. I feel like in trendy nowadays with our kimchi and our salads and sour crowd. I've always been a huge sour crowd fan myself. Pickles, which again, I'm a huge fan of pickles. So all these foods are great for me. Key for anything fermented can really help with your gut. But also just help with that replenishing your gut with those good healthy bite grobes. And then the pre-boughts from the fibers that you're eating are going to help those microbes to grow and stay healthy and have something to eat. So just having all of those components and really having a more helpful eating habit that you actually enjoy eating too, that's key. So that you'll stick with it. Can help with anxiety, depression, insomnia, and all these environmental health issues that we've been seeing recently. What I find really fascinating is two things. Firstly, the fact that our food and what we consume can really affect so many different pillars of mental health. You are mentioning sleep, anxiety, energy levels, our alertness levels, like it's not just. It's not just how our food affects our focus. Like it can affect so many other things and sleep is an incredibly important just because it's such a restorative process. So I find that to be really fascinating and then also just in this conversation, like I didn't know that Sam and also had high levels of vitamin D. Like I always thought it just was very saturated with omega three, which is great, but it never fails to amaze me how so many different types of foods, especially plant-based ones, contain so many different types of nutrients and vitamins and it's kind of like you're killing 20 birds with one stone by eating these different types of foods because they contain, they're so rich in just nutrients that are good for your body. And I'm wondering, you know, how can people take this information and actually use it to their advantage? Are there certain steps that people can take after hearing all of this and understanding all the different nutrients that are present in these different foods and, you know, take this information and then actually apply it to their lives and use food more as like fuel for them and actually as medicine than just something that you mindlessly grab and consume and then continue on with your life. - I think that people can do a few things. I think when they're listening to this, a few different things will probably pop up for them. Like they might say, "Oh, I do that. I shove down a protein bar in my car, whatever." So I think just being aware of yourself, what you do, what you could maybe work on, what you wanna improve. So that's the first step in anything. It's just gaining more self-awareness. Secondly is thinking of foods that you actually enjoy consuming that you think or that you haven't tried before and that you wanna try and making an active effort to go out to try those foods build that plate for yourself. That cute little leak trick that people can do is just kinda look at their plate and see. Like, is it a rainbow? Do I see so many different colors of different vegetables and different proteins? Like am I switching up my protein sources, my vegetable sources and getting all the variety of colors in my diet or am I sticking with the same things over and over and over? If you're sticking with the same things over and over, you're most likely missing out on a lot of the micro nutrients and the different plant foods and even differently meats, fats, things like that. So just kind of taking the inventory of what you're eating and then being able to adjust it accordingly. And I think that that can be hard, especially when people are busy and it can be overwhelming and that's why, like speaking with a dietitian is a really good place to start where they can give you small, manageable goals to achieve and work with you step-by-step, maybe even give you a meal plan to really get you on track and to take all that time that you would have to think into things away. But for those that can afford a dietitian or that don't have time or whatever the barrier is for them, just kind of taking inventory of what they're eating and then trying to get more variety in their diet, I think is really important. So that's the first thing and then just switching up everything. So if you always eat chicken, for example, maybe try salmon, shrimp, lentils, beans are another thing that's great for mental health, that's why I do that. And these sort of beans, lentils, maybe putting those in your diet sometime and exposing yourself to some of the micronutrients and different fibers that are in those. So just always kind of switching up, if you always have a rugla, maybe try spinach and kale and romaine. If you always have red bell peppers, maybe try orange and green and yellow bell peppers. So the different colors, the different things, those are important because different colors are going to indicate different micronutrients. That's what really makes them have that color. So there's anthocyanins, those are more purple and blue. There's tomatoes have really good prostate cancer, antioxidant, and then blinking on the name, it starts with an L. But yeah, the point is that every single food has a different micronutrient profile that's going to help you in different ways. And I like how you mentioned Stella that this seems like it can apply to many different things and it can. And that's a good thing is that eating a whole food plant-based diet can help you with so many different things, whether it's increased mental wellbeing and helping yourself mentally, or if it's getting your body to fight off certain disease or whatever it can be applied to so many different things, it's really just making yourself more helpful. But I think when it comes to mental health, definitely, looking at the diet and looking at what you're eating is important, but then also doing those lifestyle things. So meditation, mindfulness, all the lifestyle things can also have a huge impact on how you're feeling mentally every day. I agree, and I think if you approach these different practices simultaneously, alongside each other, you'll kind of get the most bang for your buck. I think you'll start to yield the most positive results when you're making these different food changes alongside trying to create a more consistent meditation or mindfulness practice. Like if you're kind of doing these things alongside together, I think that's what can really help improve your mental functioning, your cognitive functioning, your sense of wellbeing. And again, of course, like you mentioned earlier, there are certain mental illnesses, like maybe schizophrenia or personality disorders or bipolar, like things that maybe are more intense on the mental health spectrum that you may need to seek medication, specific medication for, even depression and anxiety if you're medicated for that. These are still things that you can control and incorporate alongside that form of treatment. And I think that's kind of empowering at the end of the day 'cause you have the choice to make these healthier lifestyle decisions and you can control what you put into your body. So might as well actually take an active role in that and fuel yourself with nutrients and vitamins that are actually going to make you strong and healthy and increase your longevity. So that's why I think this field is really fascinating and as someone who is a registered dietitian, do you see the nutrition field kind of moving more towards this shift in discussing nutritional psychiatry and discussing how our food really does impact our mental health? - I hope so because I think that there's a lot to be discovered. There's a lot to learn. There's a lot to do research on and for me as kind of science and that's really exciting. And it can help people like at the end of the day implementing some of these things can really, really help. So I definitely see it in words, upwards motion of nutritional psychiatry especially with people becoming more vulnerable and more willing to say, hey, I see a therapist, hey, I have mental health issues and just willing to have that open dialogue about it. I think they're more willing to reach out and they're more willing to look into these different alternative ways of treating themselves and helping their mental wellbeing and just their overall bodies wellbeing, physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually. There's so many different ways that we can define wellbeing but really taking care of all those tenants that surround our wellbeing I think is definitely going to be an upwards trend if not it already is. I mean, even with COVID and everything that's been highlighting that's one of the silver linings within COVID is that it did highlight the importance of our health from the beginning and preventing things, what preventative medicine, that's a huge thing that that I've been learning for years and years and years and I'm like, I love preventative medicine but then it's hard to get people to get on board with that because they're like, I don't have an illness to take care of. Why do I need to prevent it? And it's like, well, because there's a potential that you could get this in the future and not saying that you will, but just being more preventative about what might happen in the future, what you're predisposed to, things like that. And I think we like short-term gratification and we don't like to do things for the long term. And I think that that's shifting a little bit too. So that's nice. I can totally relate to that sentiment around short-term gratification. I've talked a lot actually about this concept of delayed gratification with a friend and how it's really difficult to make choices in the present so that you know you'll benefit in the future because that's the harder option. The easier option is just succumbing to what's quick and easy and feels good in the moment. But it's exciting to see kind of this trend towards opening up that conversation around how food affects our mental health and how we can actually take the learnings away from nutritional psychiatry and apply it into our own life. And something that also just really is interesting to me is how so many diseases that we have present day are come out of lifestyle choices. Like so many illnesses are lifestyle diseases. And so many of these diseases that we face can be prevented like you mentioned. Like it is important to be proactive and not necessarily reactive when situations arise. And so I think it's like what can we do to be our healthiest selves every single day? Like what are small actions we can take every day to be as healthy as possible, however you define health to be. And like you mentioned earlier, I think there's tons of different definitions around well-being and wellness. And especially as someone who is in the field of being a doctor. how has your perception and definition of well-being and health evolved over time? - That's a great question because it's definitely evolved. I think when I first started getting into nutrition, I thought health was eating whole foods only and almost like clean eating, I would say I was on board with that. No processed foods, nothing like that, totally against that. And then it evolved into more of a less boundaries around food, not thinking of food as good and bad, think of everything as neutral. And more of the mental and psychiatry around food, social behavioral determinants, and things like that, around food and eating and our food systems, just bigger picture than just so small scale that I was thinking in the beginning. I think that it also has changed as far as health and well-being for me on a spiritual level as well, for sure. Implementing things like meditation, yoga, I believe in God, so things like praying, things like that. I've taken more time to really devote myself to those practices, and I do think that they benefit me personally. And for everybody, I think that's a little bit different for some people. I don't know if it will help them. So just kind of taking what helps you in leaving what doesn't. And thinking of how this holistic and not thinking of it as select moments in time, like if you eat an ice cream, that's not the end of everything. It's okay. Like, we should eat ice cream, in my opinion, I think it's okay and that you should allow yourself to have different foods. If you're having that over and over again on a daily basis and you're doing it from a place of self-hatred and coping, then maybe you should rethink that action and maybe you should unravel why that's helping you in that way. And if you could potentially shift it towards a healthier habit. So really, I think that my definition of health has broadened significantly as I keep learning more and more about it, and become more holistic in the way that I view health and well-being and less regimented than when I first began. Learning about nutrition, for sure. I love that. You are practically like an Ayurvedic practitioner by saying that no food is good or bad, everything is neutral, because that's essentially what the Ayurvedic practice is. And I know we've talked about that offline and we both share that interest in understanding Ayurveda a bit more. Yeah. What you sent me, I was so interested in, and I actually sent to my pot. I was like, have you guys heard of, because I like Ayurvedic yoga, too. I think that that's like a nice yoga practice as well. So, yeah, definitely, I hadn't read that in there, but I could see how it's just more lenient and just more, I don't know, holistic, you know, about it. Yeah, because the concept around nothing is good versus bad, everything is neutral, figuring out what works for you. And I think it also kind of taps into this trend now of personalized wellness, because people want things that are personalized to them and customized to them. And it also makes sense because health is not a one-size-fits-all equation. What works for you might be someone else's poison and vice versa. So, it's really about finding that intuition and awareness and leaning into that and accepting that. And it's obviously much easier, something done, especially if you've had a history of disordered eating or disordered behavior around food and eating. So, I mean, that could be a conversation entirely, like a separate conversation. But I am so happy to hear that your perception of health is kind of evolved in this way and that it's always ever changing because that's something I truly believe as well. And it's a message I want to promote on this platform is giving my listeners a chance to feel empowered to have the ability to take care of themselves and get excited and doing so. Because there's so many different ways from nutritional psychiatry to developing a different habit and to letting go of an old habit. Like there's so many different ways to bolster your own sense of health and well-being and happiness. And tying into happiness, which is the theme of this podcast. My final question to you, Elizabeth, is what is something that brings you a bit of endorphins every day? I am a creative soul, like from the get. So, anything creative, like definitely I love art. I'm in Miami right now and they have great art districts and just are in general. So, I've been enjoying that. Even, you know, the graffiti and murals, I love just like I could stare at them forever. I also love painting and drawing. I love fashion. I love textiles and tear design. I like singing, playing a tar, like anything like that. So, anything creative, 100% brings me an endorphin. And then I would say other than that, it's just all that self-care stuff. So, whether that's enjoying company with friends, you know, my inner circle is really supportive and just amissing people that I love to talk to. So, that really brings me a lot of joy and happiness. And people that, you know, motivate me to do better and to be better and to, you know, have awesome, semi-leading conversations like the one that we're having today. Just different things like that. I think bring me endorphins. And then there's a little things too, you know, essential oils. I like red light therapy, float tanks, you know, meditators. And I know there's so many cool things out there that you can, that falls under wellness and self-care. So many cool practices to try out. But I agree with you, like tapping into that creativity and surrounding yourself with people that uplift you and inspire you. That is the ultimate source of endorphins, enjoy and happiness. I would agree. Yep, that's the endorphin. I don't even know. Stairwayed endorphin. Trinian, the endorphin high. You got the endorphin high. Well, thank you so much, Elizabeth. It's been a pleasure having you on the podcast. Where can my followers find you on social media? So you can follow me. My personal Instagram is Elizabeth Gunner. And then my nutrition one is at the biodiversity diet. If you go to www.illiswithgunner.com, you can find everything there. So just go there if you want to find me. Amazing. Thank you so much. Of course. Thank you. (Music) Thank you for listening and remember to like, rate and review this podcast on whichever listening platform you prefer. Don't forget to keep spreading endorphins and find things that bring you endorphins every day. See you next time. (Music) [BLANK_AUDIO]