EP 7: The Anatomy of a High-Converting SaaS Landing Page

Creating a high converting landing page isn't easy. From design to copy, there are a lot of factors involved. In this episode, I talk to Oliver Kenyon, co-founder and CEO of Landing Page Guys, a marketing agency that helps e-commerce and SaaS companies skyrocket their conversions and increase sales through high converting landing pages. They do around 60 to 100 projects per month, so yeah, he knows what he's talking about. Oliver breaks down the anatomy of a successful landing page that you can refer to while creating your own. I'm Deb and this is episode 7 of the SaaS Content and Scale. Let's dive in. This is SaaS Content at Scale, the podcast that uncovers actionable strategies to scale up your acquisition and retention campaigns through content marketing. Stay tuned as Deb interviews the top SaaS content marketers across the globe to help you grow your business. Let's get started. Oliver, welcome to the show. Thank you, so no need to be here. I really appreciate that. I've been doing. Yeah, I'm good. I'm hot. It's a rare occasion in the UK where it's actually quite warm. The sun isn't shining, but it's very humid. I've got my flashlight on me and you probably see that I've got a bit of a sunburn on the weekend. Yeah, yeah. I didn't know that UK was this hot at this time of the year. It's like India where I'm from. Were you from in the UK? Were you beast? Bristol, just outside of Bristol. So kind of southwest. So yeah, on the border of England and Wales, but yeah, Bristol based. So it's a nice place to live, the southwest of England is cool. Yeah, I know. There's beaches and all that stuff. Exactly. We have a lovely little beach. I mean, you say beaches and it depends where people in the world are listening to this and they'll probably think wow, Oliver's so lucky he lives on a beach. Let me say right now, it's not different. It's exactly like people do. It's the edge of the edge of the land where there's a very nice I mean, there's still is where I'm from. There still is like a nice beach and we're very lucky, but it's not like the Bahamas, right? It's not like it's called the San Lucis. It's No, no, no, no, no, no. It's not like a tattoo beach. Yeah, it's more rocks and muddieses, but it's all good. It's still a feature edge there. We've got fish and chips and ice cream, so what more could you want? Of course. So great. Talking a little bit about your business landing beach guys, what do you do there and how you help SaaS companies and other companies from other industries with the landing beaches and preposterate optimisation? Yeah, sure. Yeah, no, of course. We started this business about seven years ago. Myself and my co-founder Andy. And for the first kind of five years or so, I would say it was what you would, you and I were probably called a lifestyle business. Okay, so for those of people who don't know what a lifestyle business is, it means it fits around your lifestyle. It means you can go and do what you want, as long as you have Wi-Fi connection. You can run this business. We were outsourcing everything. Me and Andy were doing 95% of the work, so we were doing sales, customer care, prospecting, like everything. And then we sat down about two years ago and said to ourselves, do we want to do this for another five years or do we want to build what I would call a real real business, with an office, a premises, a culture, a family, a group of internal team and stuff. And that's what we started to do two years ago. So we're at seven-year-old startup, I say, because although we've been going seven years, I feel like we're now in the kind of, I hate that phrase, but like a startup stage. And we've gone from two employees to 30 plus in the last 12 to 18 months. We now design, develop and integrate between like 60 and 100 pages per month. Typically, 90% of that now is in the e-commerce space and 80% of that is in the Shopify platform. So we shop for five partners, we're WordPress partners, we're sticky.io partners, we connective partners, we partners with all the top CRMs. And yeah, we basically design, develop and integrate landing pages now. I hate San cliche, but there's hundreds, if not millions of design development agencies out there who can build websites and that's great. Where we differ is instead of just making them look good, we make sure they perform. So we have what's called our conversion principles and hope that I can share a few of these with you on the call. But conversion principles that we have internally, that are designers and developers and team have to take off before they deliver the project to a client. And it's basically all the tiny little geeky things that make your pages convert normally. People just don't even think about. Brilliant, brilliant. Yeah, so totally agree with that part. I myself am a conversion copywriter and there are multiple aspects to it. Where, okay, first of all, let me clear this out. Most people think that copywriting is when just writing English, which is not the case. So anyone, you know, if you go to a copywriting job, they would just go and send me anyone who's writing English, they would just call them server copywriter, which is not the case. So similarly, anyone who knows how to do website of the web design. Exactly. It's a web design. Yeah, exactly. So totally agree with that. Only for you have work with multiple SaaS companies as well. Aside from e-commerce, I also get it to SaaS and DEC, which is like growing industry right now. So since we're going to lean on SaaS here, can you talk to me about the top five differences or three differences, whatever it is? Between SaaS, between a SaaS landing page or a SaaS conversion optimization for a landing page, and between everyone else, like e-commerce or anything, you know, just an agency page or whatever. Absolutely. So typically speaking, I can give you like a really blunt answer and just say, there's no differences, but that would be stupid. The principles that I'm applying to any kind of land page, whether it's SaaS, whether it's e-commerce, whether it's lead gen, whether it's an editorial, pre-sale content heavy, advert editorial, a website, a brochure site, conversion principles apply to any of those pages. And what would be really useful if I kind of went over some top ones in a minute that anyone could apply to their SaaS pages. However, you're right. There are differences between your kind of standard e-con page and your SaaS page. And nine times at a 10, it's just that they have to be a little bit more what we kind of call like explaining. So they need to go into detail with what you do. Now, you can probably talk to me better than I can about the kind of content and copy side because you said you're a SaaS copywriter. But it's very, very true that that is a that's testament when it comes to SaaS pages. So things like showing the benefits to the consumer are so, so important. Now, as a product owner, I've been SaaS companies before. I've been a software's before we built a landing page builder. I own an agency. I have my own products. As an owner of a product or company or a SaaS, you typically want to show share with your audiences all your shiny objects. It's always like my SaaS can do this better than the competitor. Now, that's great in a secondary status. But primarily, what you need to lead with on a SaaS page is the actual benefit of that shiny object. And this is where people get confused. And this is where a lot of SaaS companies go wrong. They'll say, for example, they'll say, let's take a landing page builder, for example, just because it's close to what we do. They'll say, for example, there's so many landing page builders out there and not none of them are that good to be honest with you. But they'll say things like, you know, lightning fast pages. Now, that is a feature of the product. The feature of the landing page builder is that you have lightning fast pages. That's not a benefit to the consumer. The benefit to consumer is that page speed is so important when it comes to converting a consumer if they're buying a product. So that's the benefit. And that's where you have to lead. You don't lead with the technology behind the lightning fast pages. You lead with why those pages are going to actually benefit me as a consumer. And that tends to be the thing that people get wrong with these kind of SaaS pages. I'll give you a couple more examples sticking to the landing page builders. The feature may be that we have a million free stock images. That's still a feature. That's not a benefit to me. The benefit is that I can have free images whenever I want. It's like, I don't have to go find images or buy images. That's the benefit. And when it comes to the kind of content play or your layout of your landing page, yes, you should follow things like the A to principle, which hopefully we can go into detail with, but you should always lead with your benefits. It's very cliche. I'm sure you've tell it to your comments all the time, but it's features tell benefits. So it's the benefit that you want to pick out more instead of those shiny objects that is very easy to talk to about. I get it. Like as a product owner, I want to just hang on my shiny objects in front of people. But it's not what consumers want to hear. So I challenge anyone who's listening to this or watching this video to look at their sales page right now and have a look if they're talking about features first or benefits first. Now you don't really have to do too much to switch them because all you need to do is switch that headline that says like Lightning Fast Pages to quicker pages make you more money. That's the benefit of the Lightning Fast Pages. So look at your headlines, look at your layout of your page and just flip those features into benefit driven content and that will help you a long thing and that's a big thing that people get wrong on such pages. So, I mean, I'm just like nodding my head like an idiot throughout whatever you said right now. Okay, I'm going to name this episode features tell benefit tell. I hope so. Good, it's awesome. I just, another one again is very cliché but with the copy side is, is that you need to market the problem and sell the solution and a lot of SaaS companies can really do this well. So they typically as a SaaS owner, you will know what the pain points of your customer are. So you will know that, again, page builders, you will know that people can't, you know, you can't get a quick page out. Or let's let's pick something else but you know, you will, you will know why you built the software but you tend to, you tend to just market the solution first and foremost because you're so proud of your features but you forget that you need to tell people why they're here and why they're in pain and then present them with that solution. So that's another thing. I think it's really important just to lay things out correctly, especially on the software. Yeah, that is one. And second is your page. I really should tell a story, basically, you start with the benefits but what happens is a lot of times I've seen, SaaS companies, they write the headline and the sub headline and the CTA is amazing, right? Okay, I'm hooked on. But once I get to the next, you know, next fold of the page, then the stupidity starts. It's all the features. Yeah, I mean, there's a disconnect. Problem is that there's a disconnect, right? I don't have a problem with shiny objects. That's fine, keep it there. But why would you make a disconnect with, you know, with the first fold to the second fold, right? So those are the things I want to cover today is basically, you know, how to exactly, you know, write a good landing page or how to create a good landing page, right? It's only sure. Create is designed and everything. So, yeah, through the anatomy of an amazing SaaS landing page, what do you exactly do if you don't mind sharing what exactly do it? Of course. Yeah, yeah, no, I'm here to offer some real valuable tips. So of course, one thing I will quickly mention as well, another big mistake before we get into the anatomy that we see on SaaS as well is that SaaS companies aren't typically always, and I'm not going to say that they're not as typically as versed to paid media as say an affiliate marketer or an internet marketer is. And they'll typically think, you know, we buy Facebook ads, we send them to a homepage of our website or our software, and it's going to convert. And again, it doesn't work. It's the same as, well, it might work, but not as well. It's the same as you owning a product and you have a store and you sending Facebook called media to a store. It's not going to convert as well as building a direct response or direct to consumer sales page or landing page, like a dedicated page on paid media, cold media is going to convert way better even for your SaaS. So it's pulling out your SaaS from your website and creating a one page that walks people through this journey that I'm about to share with you is going to convert way way better than just sending them to your website. So let's talk about the anatomy of a kind of quote on quote off, perfect landing page. First and foremost, it needs to be directly with consumer so it needs to be taken out of your website. You shouldn't have multiple navigational links. You shouldn't be able to click everywhere, have five, six pages worth of content. It should be typically one direct response sales page that walks the consumer through the journey. Now they don't know they're going through that journey, but if we break down the anatomy, all I will say is go and research the Aida principle. Okay, so I'm going to I'm not going to do the actual principle justice on this video, but I'll tell you how you should be laying your pages out. Now Aida stands for if you don't know stands for attention, interest, desire, action, and the best way I haven't got one in front of me, the best way for me to explain this is if you imagine an A4 piece of paper, this is your landing page, fold that paper in half and then half again. So you've got four quarters, right, lengthways down your page. Now I'm not saying that every single section of the Aida principle has to be the same dimension. It doesn't have to be the same size, but this is the way you should split your landing pages up. And we'll start from the top. Okay, so the top is action, sorry, attention. So the first thing above the fold is attention. Now people who don't know what above the fold is you should, but it's just basically the bit that you land on when you land on the landing page or website, the bit that loads first and foremost. Now, importantly above the fold in that attention section of that A4 piece of paper or that landing page, about four to five crucial elements. Now walk you through them. One is a very clear value proposition. So we have to get across with a nice headline sub headline exactly what the benefit of your software, I'm going to talk about software because we're on a set into what the benefit of your software is to the consumer. So put yourself in a mind of consumer. Why are people clicking your cold ads? Why are people clicking an ad in on a blog post, whatever it may be, a cold email, whatever, like why are people there? What's the pain point and what's the solution you're fixing? Okay, so clear value proposition is crucial. We then typically do bullet point text. So again, this is a mistake people make. They'll do like a long form paragraph of text above the fold. And people just don't read it. It's boring. Hit them with hard, hard factual bullet points. Three to five even, sorry, odd numbers convert better. Don't ask me why. So three to five bullet points of benefits of that software. Then you need social proof. That is so crucial. So how do we do social proof? Typically speaking, it's like five gold stars, you know, just copy the Amazon way five gold stars and then put something like rated 4.9 out of five on Cater or whatever it may be by a heart, you know, a thousand plus happy customers or let's say you're doing, you've got an SEO software by a thousand plus SEO Kings or something like that, you know, make it descriptive. So you need social proof. Also, you need a testimonial by that social proof. So you need a picture of a person, a real person. None of this no stock images, no models, you want, is authentic as possible. Someone taking a selfie on their phone. That's perfect. With a one word quote, oh, sorry, one paragraph quote. So we've gone a clear value proposition. We've got bullet points. We've got social proof in the form of testimony on some gold stars. We need a a picture typically of the kind of software or the product. So whether that's like a with sass it works quite well if you've got like an iMac or a desktop or something with the dashboard or whatever the benefit is on the screen or something like that. And then we need a clear call to action. So when we talk about call to actions, just keep it simple, stupid. So whether like people, this is another thing sass does do quite badly is they confuse their messaging with their call to actions. So I've been on so many pages whereby it's like booking a demo, get started now, see our pricing, learn more, request a call back fill in this form. Like no, what is the one thing you want people to do? Keep it stupid, simple. What is the one thing? So whether that's like speak to your sales team, if you sell more like okay, so I'm going to open us up to our company as an agency, we sell more landing pages by getting on a phone call just because we can then educate the person, we can do a discovery call for 10 minutes and they instantly get it, right? Our landing pages aren't cheap. We're very, very good at what we do, we get results, but we know we have to like educate that person talk it through with them. And normally within 10, 15 minutes, if people know of us and they're on that level, they kind of get it and they want to buy it straight away. So everything in our sales pipeline and everything on our form points towards a call. So it's just filling this form and we get on the call straight away, you're into a calendar booking form, that's it because we know it does. We don't confuse it with like a big button that says call us now or learn more of this, this and this. So that's the same on your software. If you know that getting people on demos converts better than call calls or buy now, then just get people on demos. That should be your call to action, booking a free demo now or booking it in a time that's convenient to you. So above the fold, that's crucial. Headline, subheadline, bullet points, value proposition with the headline. We've got the social proof with the testimonial, we've got pitch to the image and we've got a call to action. Feel free by the way to interrupt. Because I tend to just speak like crazy if you've got any questions or any. No worries. So all this stuff, right? So there are like four to five elements as you mentioned. Yes. The stuff would go in the above the fold. But I want the fold. I don't think, I mean, okay, to be honest, I don't think it will fit in one screen, right? It should very easy. It should very easy fit. So you should, if you imagine one screen here, got a thing of which way the camera is facing, but let's say if I'm looking at my screen, top left, you have headline, bullet points and testimonial, top right, you have an image and then you have a call to action and you've done it. Okay. That itself, or right, or yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Centralize everything. It's just left and right. It's like two columns. And then people will always ask, okay, well, how about mobile? How do I get those things above the fold on mobile? If you go to, I'm not plugging us, but if you go to our YouTube video, I've just done a video about mobile, but our YouTube channel, sorry, just search for landing page guys on YouTube. But the most important thing on mobile are those five elements, but you can easily get them in by, for example, with the social proof, you don't need the full testimonial, you just need the five gold stars with like rated 4.9 out of 5 by a thousand dollars. That can fit on one. little line and then everything comes below that. So that's the attention section. Now we go on to that second piece of the A4 paper, second part of the anonymous page, second part of the consumer journey. Now this is where, when we knew we were talking about the kind of benefits over features, this is where you go into that. So typically speaking, this is the interest section, sorry, Aida, attention, interest. So in this section we need to peak the consumer's interest. How do we do it? The best way of doing that is telling people how easily it is to get your software and use it and the benefit of them doing so. So normally we do that with like a, again, let's take SEO software, for example, you know, build better backlinks in three simple steps. One, request a demo. Two, we find out what works for you. Three, we build the backlinks in your SEO ranking skyrockets. Like it's one, two, three. So you clear visible one, two, three, with some, you want me want to do some like illustrations alongside them. But it's like, is it just steps are benefits? Like our steps, which will tell the benefits? I mean, yes, it's so sorry, yeah, that's the top. So that's that would be the next section on your landing page. It would be the kind of like getting, this is how easy it is to do it. So one is like getting touch. Two is, we'll work out how we work with you. And three is that's the benefit. And then below that in the intersection, you then go into the benefits of using your software. So that's when you can go into like your product screenshots, you know, screenshots of your dashboard, what they are and again, deal away from being very feature heavy. Speak on us. What do you feel like? What if there is no, you know, what if there is no peer steps, right? Beer one to three four five steps. It's a very complicated enterprise software. Let's take for example, sales force. So there still would be because you still, you still need to step one, book in a call with them. Still step two is discovery and they come back to with a proposal for whatever they want to do on your business. And then step three is still implementation and new benefit fitting from that implementation. So like anything can be a one, two, three, it's like it's typically it's getting touched with us with the time that suits. We agree on how we move forward. We move forward and you benefit. It doesn't matter if it's a demo, it doesn't matter if it's a buy now, it doesn't matter what software it is, like typically that's that's the the easiest way to lay it out. Any game you mean example with HubSpot, let's say, let's say we're talking about HubSpot, TRM4 sales, other sales hub, right? Yeah, so on the example, step one step, step three. So so on the sales side for HubSpot, for example, on the CRM, it would be like step one, book in a call with ourselves representatives whenever it suits you. So you have to like the language has to be like when it suits you, when it's convenient to you. Step two, after our discovery call ourselves team will get back to you with what we see is best for your company. Step three, implement our solutions and you'll be making way more money saving more time and be laid back and we'll take it all for you. You know, what's the benefit? What is the benefit of HubSpot? Is that it's easier. It's making me more money. It's saving me time. That's the benefit of using HubSpot. I was thinking something different. I was thinking like how do you use the product in three steps because that is. You need to remove the the connotation of the consumer doing any legwork. Like it's more like this is how you get into our software and this is how it benefits you. So obviously for a premium product it would be I think to sign up for the product, be your account, get value. Absolutely. What is that value? What is that value? Right, basically rank your keywords faster. It's something that rank your keywords faster is a feature but what's the benefit of ranking your keywords faster? So it's like make more money from your keywords. Make more money from your landing page. There you go from your keywords or from your yeah exactly. So it's like you just need to get into your mindset of your consumer. Why are they on how are they going to benefit from your software? How do they do it and how do they get the benefit? One, two, three, fine. Then you can go more into the kind of benefit stuff whereby you can use icons or you can use screenshots of the software. You can talk about let's go SEO, you know, SEO, you know, easily rank your keywords. Okay, so then you can show how they do it on the software and you can go more into the kind of benefits and then under that you're not saying stay away from features like you may then want to do a little section on the features, the shiny objects but always, always leave with those benefits first. So that's the interest section. Section number three. So again, they're not equal sections but they're equal split on the page. So you've got attention, interest and then section three is desire. Desire is social proof. So this is slightly different again when it comes to SaaS pages. You want case studies. You want to let everyone know that you worked with Google and Airbnb and this is what we did for Uber and this is what we did for this company. It doesn't even have to be an enterprise company. It could just be me or you. Your average Joe who have used a software and 10x our business, if you can get people on a video even better. Any sort of refutable companies that use you put them there but also for SaaS, if reputable companies use your business, put it in that attention section just beneath the attention and above the interest. So a little strip, like you said, it says something like brands. It is exactly. It is exactly brands we skyrocketed their SEO rankings for whatever. Get descriptive, get clever, we're wording. But desire is all about that desire. It's making me desire your product because other people have used it and had success. So testimonials, case studies, videos, social proof, everything in that desire section. And then we move on to that very, very bottom section which is a action. What is the one clearest cool to action? I want someone to take not what they want to take what I want them to take as a company because it's going to make us more money to move forward. Not learn more cool now, book in a cool, here's a form, here's a buy now button, here's some pricing. No, it's like if demos work, book in a demo now. That's it. So you can support that with all your social proof and stuff again. But that's the basically the anatomy of any sales page, but obviously catering towards more towards the satisfied thing. Brilliant. Brilliant. Okay, so AIDA, that's typically the formula. Pretty much everyone uses for even copyrighting if I use that. Do you only recommend to use AIDA or do you guys also use stuff like bass, BAS or there are a few other of the other stuff. So why does AIDA go better than typically speaking just from our data, that's what's always worked. It just works well because when you're selling something, it's that whole psychology behind like, okay, you've got my attention. Now you're going to peak my interest, then you're going to make me desire it and then I'm going to take that one call to action. And it just typically from our data and for our seven years in the business, it is just what really works time and time again. We've even had like, you've mentioned you are a member, obviously, we've interacted inside our Facebook group and we've had you probably see it. We have people all the time who just watch our videos, implement the AIDA principle. They don't, you know, not saying hire us, you don't have to pay us to do it. But like, just rejig things on their page and reword it a few things and they've like seen two x convergent rates just because it's naturally what people, I mean, normally we work with paid media, so cold traffic, like Facebook ads, Google ads, native, whatever that may be. And that is typically what will work if someone's just clicking an app and they come to your language page. Okay, cool. All right, so do you do you see this across industries or do you only see the assess, right? Is it across across any industries? Yeah, it can be applicable to any website, any type of page, any industry. Yeah, I would follow this methodology for pretty much anything. Obviously, it changes if, say, for example, VSL works a lot better or you need to get someone on a webinar, but even then, like even on our lead gem pages or webinar pages, we're still following that principle as far as layout. There is other elements and other things that you do need on your landing page, which I'd love to share. Yeah, talk to me over the design of the landing page, exactly. So, yeah, so, I mean, mostly we are talking about the copy bar and how we should write about it. So how is a design? How does design, first of all, affect landing pages, you know, conversion it because there's a there's a running debate as you how much a copy affects conversion. That's how much design affects a conversion. I think it's both because with crappy design, your page won't convert either way, I would just flip the cross. So, break me if I'm wrong or I would agree copy and copy and design works equally as well. However, what we've just described on half an hour of this call is design and copy. You couldn't just have plain text laid out in that order and it would convert. It needs to be designed well as well. When it comes to design, obviously, most people already have like a style guide, especially if you have a software already. You have like a style guide already for your brand. But all I would say is, again, I use it all the time, but kiss so keep it super simple. Like, just don't overcomplicate things. Like, I love stuff that's on like plain backgrounds. Nicely laid out with correct amount of padding. But it's more about those elements that are on the page and the layout of the page than aesthetically kind of what it looks like. Yeah, can you actually break it down a bit further? Like what is an aesthetic design? Because I keep hearing different opinions about that. I'm currently confused. So as opposed to aesthetic design versus what versus. Versus let's say a heavy design. So I'll give you an example. Salesforce has a very heavy design. If you go to the website, you'd feel overwhelmed. Like there's so many things happening at the same time. On the contrary, if you go to buy Brexit website or the homebale is on a pitch.com, which is like a basic Japanese beautiful content. Right? Yes. How are the different. So I feel like again, I'm no position to pick apart Salesforce has come video website. However, what I feel what works better for us is if you have a. I mean, typically I'm always I'm always favorable of basic design. So like minimalistic pipe drive type, base camp type designs. Who else does this well? Asana does it all the kind of CMS is those kind of companies do it all really really well. CRM's. What's the what's it called the inner to the sorry designer feedback tool. They do it really well as well. Oh, yeah. And then you're a. There's another one in the eye. In vision. In vision. There you go. In vision do it very well as well. And they've got a great, great design aesthetics. But typically, like I say, that I believe the more simple, the less clutter, the better. But when it comes to a website, that's very different to a landing page. So people coming to you from organic type and traffic. And you're a website. You need kind of those. You need the added bulk because you need. To. That was actually the expression. That was actually additional pages like again, but. And again, I'm not doing this to plug us. But if you go to our website. Our organic site. We get lots of the one organic traffic. Yeah, actually. Yeah. Thank you. Our actual actual landing page where you land on is more like a sales page. And if any of the links in an obligation, they just link down to sections of that one page. That's the psychology of keeping them on one page. However, obviously in our footer, we then have additional links to, you know, on page, and you gem page, our blog, which is what our education section. Where we, we obviously can rank and get traffic for. But an organic site is very, very, very different thing to a cold traffic sales page or landing page as such. However, they can still follow like our website still follows the age of principle. It's still walked people through the journey and we still practice what we've breached on there. But we've got the additional pages at the bottom. We're just hoping really that the page has done a well enough job that they don't even think or go to those pages. You know, that's fine if they come from those pages and then go to our home page or form brilliant. But we're hoping if people are landing on a sales page and we've got the maps and stuff that show this works. Typically speaking, they don't get further than that bottom action section with the form because well our page has done a good enough job. So, yeah, this is this one one thing I wanted to discuss about that's also an existing debate, right. Two questions to it like a party, but we, but is how, how is it home page different than a landing page when I'm talking about it? I'm talking about it, I'm saying, how do you write the copy different? How do you design the page differently? And second, can a home page also double back as a landing page? Because there's a like a huge debate on it like how the people say no, how the people say yes, cheer that up. Clear that out is if you want my opinion if you're doing paid media. So again, I hate to interfere back to it. But if you're paying for clicks, if you're, whether it's an email campaign, Facebook, Google, Native, pop, whatever. If you're paying for clicks, a landing page is still going to convert way, way better than a website. Okay, that's fact. That's fact. It always converts better. Now, people say can a home page double up as a landing page or should it be laid out the same as a landing page? Yes, just look at our site. Again, if you go to our site and I'm not trying to get people to our site, but we have navigational links in our header. If you click on any of them, they don't go to additional pages. They just link down to those sections. Now the reason for that that it's called parallax design. The reason for that is we don't want to distract the user away from the page. The biggest mistake we see, like, even I'm still I'm still shot like a kind of still see it on like big websites corporate websites is when they have like social links. They'll have like Facebook icons and Instagram icons above the fold in their header. Now, typically what happens nine times that 10 is people click them and then 20 minutes later, they're like looking at pictures of their neighbor playing tennis in the garden. And they do just pay for that click. Right. Exactly. Like you've just paid for that click. So the psychology behind the right response still is still the same to me on the website as it is on a landing page. Now, however, I'm not adverse to people having additional pages on their website because they need it Google needs it helps your service like it's a good thing. But organic traffic is way, way different to paid media. So if you want my opinion, yes, you can kind of murder to and the principles stay the same across both of them. However, you should, if you can afford it, have a corporate website for organic traffic and a landing page for paid traffic. And that's it straight line through the middle. Is there any like, you know, like proper difference between normal page or a language type in the way you write the copy or is it like it follows the same principle. It's basically all the same. That's absolutely in our opinion. It should always follow the conversion principles, the aid of principle. Again, just look at our site, for example, we follow it to a tea like we will walk people through that consumer journey, our landing page, our website converts very, very well. And that's because of that. I'm looking at your website. I have a question. This is like a disorder of curiosity. Right. Your first CTA says get started now. And when I click on get started now, I come to the bottom form, which says start your project. Right. Ideally speaking, when you mentioned in the beginning of the poll, it would be like a schedule discovery called right. So why not mention that. Our data shows we tested this basically. So if you tested it, that's great. So our data shows that people like to book in a call. I'm sorry, like to fill out a form and then they get the email to book in a call. So we've just read on all our sales pipeline from the back end. So for one, the lead gets submitted. Everything centers around a call. So as soon as you fill in that form, you get an email straight away from your sales rep that says, hey, it's Greg or hey, it's Liza who it's all of whoever it may be. Here's my can really link booking a call now. I can't wait to discover your call. However, we've tested data whereby we've just had a call booking link on the page instead of a form like no form and it doesn't convert anywhere near as well. So the data that we've tested shows that people like to submit a form and then commit to a call. They're more likely to do that than just commit to a call straight away. So our call to action is get started now, you know, get in touch with us, but bang straight away. There's an email automation that goes get something on the call. And if they don't respond within two days, we send them another email. Hey, it's Greg just following up. Let's get that call booked in. Can't wait to speak to you if they don't follow up if they don't book in a call with another two days, bang another email. Hey, it's just wondering, you know, you still on my pipeline. Would you like to book a call. Here's a link went a time that's convenient to you. Let's get it booked in. And this is all automated. And if they don't do it a third time, they then go into our mail template list and we put like a lead nurturing list that just 10, 20 emails that I'm constantly adding to, which is just value. It's just here's some case study, here's some testimonials. Here's how you can do the stuff that we do. You don't have to use us. If you want to save time and money and want to use the experts book in a call. So everything now revolves around booking that call. It's just on the front end, we get people to opt in because it just works better than just saying. Awesome. So that's a nice segue into my next question query, whatever you call it. It's basically my query is like, how do you a test Atlantic page, right? So they're like tools and stuff, but tools and stuff will only enable you to, you know, just run the experiment. But ideally the strategy behind a testing page is very different. What changes do you make, whether you change the color or design or entirety of thing, you walk me through your testing strategy for Atlantic page. And what kind of results have you seen if possible for us. So one thing to say about this is budget comes into play. So yes, you've just mentioned the software is available. There's also companies available that will do your testing for you. So there's a difference between if you have budget, I would say go in maybe speak to someone like convert car. If you need an intro, by the way, you might as well give you a PRP intro. And then you can do a job also VW as a software is the best out there, however, it is very expensive. I think the minimum charge is like two K a month now. We've been working with them since it was like $20 a month. So it's an expensive SaaS, but it's a great SaaS. Now, as far as actual technique, whether or not you're using them or all doing it yourself. So, take into account when it comes to testing. First and foremost, there's different testing. So there's split testing and then there's more. multi-variate testing and AB testing. AB testing is typically split testing, I would say. Well, AB testing kind of speaks to both, but split testing is whereby you've got two completely different landing pages. So let's say, for example, landing page guys, we do variation costing, so we include split testing, if you want, like we will give you a price for one landing page, and then a completely different, aesthetically looking landing page for you to split your traffic between. Now sometimes people will buy five different split tests if they have the budget, and they'll be fully aware that four of them, they're probably never going to use again. But you can't always pinpoint the exact page from day one, so it's quite good to get more than one page if you've got the budget. So first and foremost, I would start with split testing. That's where you've got like a few different pages, if you're going to afford it, of course. And you drive traffic at a few different pages, and there's a clear winner, normally there's a clear winner. It's like this page will convert at 6%, this one's 3, this one's 2, okay, let's get rid of them for now. Let's focus on the one that wins. Then we look into AB or multivariate testing. Now again, if you're doing this yourself, the biggest mistake that we see is that people overcomplicate it. They think, okay, I'm going to create 10 different variations on my page, then I'm going to test the button color, the image, the price point, the call to action, and some of the content. And they do it all, like on all these different variations, and they're like, shucks and traffic at it, and they're like, oh, that one converts better. And we're like, okay, well, how, why does it convert better? And they're like, oh, I'm not sure. I don't know which one convert, why it convert better. So the best thing you can do when it comes to AB or multivariate testing is start small. So I would almost always recommend that above the fold is the most important element of testing straight away. So start with just the color of a button. Create 10 variations of your page with different colors. Split the traffic and see which ones are clear with it. Is it a black button? Is it a white, a red, a green, orange, whatever? Which ever one it is is a very, very clear test. Because what happens when you have more than one test is your data just gets skewed. That's a very, very clear test that you can take your data from, okay? Pink button converts best. That then becomes your baseline. Now we're going to test the pink button with five different headlines. So copy your landing page five different times. Split test the headline. To the best landing page builder, the all in one landing page, just save the time and money with this landing page builder, build the best converting landing pages with this builder, whatever split test five different, sorry, AB test or multivariate test five different headlines. Then you'll get the data of which one converts best with that pink button. Then go on to the cool to action text on the button. By the way, if you're not using emojis, it sounds ridiculous, but if you're not using emojis on your buttons, do it. This pointing emoji converts best. It will add to your click through rates. We've been doing it for two years. We've been telling people. Yeah, you have it. You still have it on your visual India. Yeah, exactly. You'll see a huge uplift. And then split test your text on your buttons. So the more, the more emotive text, the better. So stuff like, okay, so let's say for SAS, so like get started now. Book my free demo. Show me the magic. Tell me how it works. Like these kind of more descriptive text. You can probably testament to this. We'll convert way better with the emoji on the button. So split test five different cool to action text. Then set that as a baseline and go again. So the best way of doing it is just keeping those tests small. Then you have very clear data points of what worked and what didn't. Record everything down in a chart, in a spreadsheet, or use something like VW or Google Optimize or Optimize or something. But you can do it yourself just by creating two bits. If you're using something like Shopify, they make it a bitch to claim pages. I don't know why. It's pretty easy. It's pretty easy and WordPress or Stafford HTML, of course, but Shopify made it hard. OK, so the idea is that start with split testing, like two different variations are like different variations. Like completely different looking pages. Like completely different. Every color, copy, everything is different. Even the testimonials and everything is different. Select the best one, best converting. Then come two multi-variate testing, where you change one element at a time. One element at a time. Yeah. So have you ever seen folks do multi-variate testing with more than one element at a time? And that has worked well. Is that possible? We, all we've ever known, like all we've ever taught, is to keep it simple. So just one at a time, because then you get a clear indication of what works. I mean, there's no harm in building up that baseline and then just creating a few duplicates that just mashed everything up and hoping that something will work. But I can pretty much confidently say that it won't work better than what you have as your baseline if you just do like one or two elements at a time. Otherwise, you just don't have that data. There's just nothing to go up. Brilliant. OK, so I think I'm kind of done with the questions. Before we get to the rapid fire, there are three questions there. Would you like to share any other piece of advice for SAS landing page creators or quantum monitors? Basically, any copywriter or quantum monitor is in charge of creating the landing pages. Shall we go to the chat? Sure. Sure. No. To sum up what we've kind of discussed in this talk is if you're doing paid media, build out a landing page, don't send traffic to your website. It's going to convert better. Keep your messaging simple. Keep your call to action simple. What's the one biggest thing you want to achieve from that customer or that click? Follow the A to principle. Emerge is on button's work. Social proof is crucial. Trust is crucial as well. So like companies we work with, if you've won awards, what you rated on different SAS platforms, trust pilot, that kind of stuff, capter or whatever it may be. That's crucial. Put that above the fold. And yet, page feed is really important as well. So if you can optimize your pages for load speed, do that as well. But yeah, hopefully there's been enough in this that people can really start building their pages out better. Awesome. I hope so too. All right. So let's get onto the rapid five questions. The first one is, tell me your favorite book that is not related to content marketing business or sales. Key person of an influence by-- I always forget his name. Thanks, Steve. Daniel Prisny. Key person of influence. So KPI by Daniel Prisny. It's an amazing book. So it talks about how to stand out in your audience, how to have your thousand true fans, how to be that go-to person for everything in your business. All right. So one for the activity that you would give to Mark Deer is a Mark Deer is in general. That works well. Exercise, hit training is everything. So every morning, 6.30, I do a 20 minute hit. It gets me ready for the day. Bulletproof tea is good as well, but yeah, hit training. And then I have a break in the afternoon where I exercise it again. So my life involves around exercise and not because I'm obsessed with exercise and not because I look physically. I don't have a six pack or anything like that. I enjoy my food and drink more than anything. But it's more about how it makes me feel than how it makes me look. Of course, it's a benefit of being slim and stuff as well. I like that. It's how it makes me feel. If you ever feel sluggish, if you're ever in a rut, if you ever feel knackered, go and do a 20 minute hit. Just go on YouTube, Google 20 minute hit exercise. All you need is a space of a mat. Like you don't even need any gym equipment. It's just anyone can do it anywhere. If you're in a hotel, if you're away, you can just Google low impact hit. And you don't even make any noise. It's amazing. Love it. Brilliant. I need to start doing that. Yeah. Good. Every morning, you can start from doing it. Hit and then a cold shower. And you'll be a different person. I promise. Brilliant. I can do that. OK. So one non-marketing tool that you can't live without? Non-marketing. OK. So for me, it's going to have to be notes of a native app on your iPhone. Notes is everything to me. I live my life of notes. So the way our business runs-- we're actually moving over to Monday, but our business runs on Trello. So we have any given time, about 350 active clients on Trello, different Trello boards. So I have personally-- I have my own personal Trello board with all my businesses, all my interests, all my goals and everything listed out. But then I pull it off the Trello onto my phone, the most important things that I want to achieve that day or week onto my notes on my phone. And then I just live off notes. So everything-- In the second person to mention that, do that. So whether it's personal business, I break every business down into a section, and then personal at the top investment second. And I just list out the different things that I want to achieve for that week, not forever. Because then it gets too clogged up. I keep that in Trello. So I look at that once every two weeks. And then I pull the data off, put it on my notes, and then I attack my notes every single day. How do you manage 350 clients with just 30 of clients? We have a team. No, still, it's less, right? You think we have 30 to 40 staff. So yeah, we have account managers. They're responsible for ex-metaclants. And to be fair, we probably have about half of those are active at any time, because people laugh like they go on holiday, or they forget all the product, or they get put on the back burner, or they're waiting for consent from their CEO. And then the other 150 come in. So each account manager will manage-- So dating. I have to get that one. Yeah, it's like-- - Really? - Really? - We're busy, put it that way. (laughs) - Yeah, I can definitely agree to that. All right, Oliver, thanks for being on the show. It's been a pleasure and it's like amazing tips on how to build a landing page, especially for SAS. The AID principal, couldn't get more from you. Thanks a lot. - Not a problem, it's been great. I really appreciate it. - Okay, that's it, you see it. - Cheers, thank you. (upbeat music) - Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed today's episode, please head over to iTunes and leave us a rating and review. This does help us get this podcast out to more amazing marketer's like yourself. Thanks again for listening and we will see you in the next episode. (upbeat music) [BLANK_AUDIO]