Ep 7. Lance Hodgson, from semi-professional soccer to VP of marketing at Sitemate. It's all about intentionality, and consistency.

Welcome to Calling Operator. Hot cars are always picked to operate us in some of Australia's biggest startups. So now how they got there and what their impact is. Connecting to Lance Hodgson, VP of Marketing at Sightmet. Hi Lance and welcome to the podcast. Hey Maloma, happy to be here. So to just start off, the first question I'd like to ask is where did you grow up? Yeah, I grew up in Perth, so I was to Australia. So yeah, I spent the first kind of 11, 18 years of my life in Perth and then yeah, I had it headed overseas from there and overseas. Where did you head to? So into the UK first, so actually you pursued soccer when I was younger. So went out, went out there when I was, yeah, I think it was 17 initially and then moved out there when I was 18. And then, yeah, stayed there for a couple of years, played for a decent club there. And then got off of some scholarships actually, it took like a couple of years, yeah, ended up going out there and then went about four or five years in the year after before heading back to ours. So your scholarships were for soccer to go to the US and what we studying when you're over there. Yeah, so I went, I actually didn't end up going on a scholarship. It was kind of interesting because I went to go pursue soccer and studies. But the schools that I kind of couldn't go on to were in different locations to the girl that I met while I was there in California, which is my now wife. So yeah, basically ended up going to California and just focusing on studies really and working as well. So yeah, study, study business marketing. Nice. Yeah, that's interesting. I think most people I've spoken to have who have attempted to go to the US on a sports scholarship, have ended up not taking the sports scholarship for whatever reason. Yeah, I think it's one of those things. It's a good entry point and it gets you thinking about kind of optionality, which I think is interesting. And yeah, I was an interesting junk show in my life where we may, I was like, do I pursue your soccer now? And continue down that path or do I do something a little different? And yeah, for me, it was kind of kind of became clear the direction that I wanted ahead. And luckily, it aligned with the post of the life and stuff like that, which was handy. Yeah, for sure. And was soccer sort of like, was that a childhood thing that you were really into? Yeah, I, yeah, definitely grew up loving soccer. It was my whole life for quite a while. So yeah, up until I was probably 18, 19. And yeah, definitely wanted the dream career for sure. So but then when it, when it became like, do I want to be 25, 28, 30, like playing in, you know, even, even like good divisions, but not necessarily like full-time pro and, you know, highlights and premier leg and stuff like that, it kind of become well, yeah, do you then go all in on that when, you know, you come out of that with the 35 years old and you don't have, you know, the great behind you and experience in or do you go down that path and then yeah, builds, you know, build a little bit of a career and just focus on home. Yeah, it was, it was kind of just like in the road and just made the, the conscious decision to go down that. Yeah, no fair. And question as well, like was moving overseas from Perth something that you would have thought of without the soccer element, or do you think? Like for me, studying overseas was something that I just never, I don't know why I just never was not like it wasn't something that I thought was an option really. It's good question. I don't, I don't know to be honest. Like I, I really thought about it because I just went to the UK for soccer, but I, I guess I can't imagine having stayed in Perth after I was kind of 17, 18. So I think I would have gone somewhere or done something. I actually just can't even invigorate my felt. Feel there. So maybe a specific one, but yeah, can't even come and see my face. That was that was one of the, I did speak to your wife and she sort of told me the whole story about how you guys met and how you sort of abducted her. Nice word for it. But you did mention how you left home at 17, which I think is kind of an interesting, it's an interesting part of your history because a 17 year old is, you know, a very young person to be not just leaving home, but moving very far away from everything you've ever known and how you got there. So then you were studying, so studying marketing and business in California. Yeah. And was the marketing because you're in California was the discussion around startups or was the discussion you're going to go into a multi corporate or a big consumer brand and was that kind of the skew on how you were being taught? It wasn't they didn't really kind of like pigeonhole and any main was not general in real business being for the most like when even when I said to think about work experience like that was. Yeah, it wasn't even really directed to the audience. It was going to be an amazing. Right. You've got actually ended up working for the Hollywood studio, which is kind of like classic in that being California. But yeah, like there was no real direction like I just kind of fell into that and didn't even think that they weren't even on the radar at all, even being in California because wasn't in Northern California. Obviously, Southern California, the startup scene is still still good and decent, but not, you know, not simply just go and not seen in any way like that. So yeah, just basically when a Hollywood studios and then from there, but no, wasn't wasn't really invited by anything to do with the studies specifically. And so how long ago are we talking just like roughly 10 10 years ago? Yeah, probably 10 years ago. Yeah, I think I knew I did when I was 40. And I'm 31. So I guess seven, seven, eight and I'm 10 years ago around that. Yeah, yeah. It's always interesting to put that in context right because like the sellup saying even in the US has changed a lot, but I mean, particularly has here as well. So then Universal Studios, what were you doing there? We just do it celebrities was it imagining like a coming of age story set in Hollywood. So I worked for CBS media is initially mostly mostly television and yeah, Matt, Matt hates the celebs, which was, it's really interesting. Right. I mean, I'm kind of funny and being there, but yeah, I met a bunch. And yeah, that was cool. I was basically I actually wanted to continue exhausting initially, so procurement basically and worked the, the person who kind of like chose me to intern there. She, she knew I had a marketing kind of lens. So like I was doing analysis on the marketing spend in terms of their procurement side. So that was kind of kind of involved. And then we did some events and stuff like that, which was kind of like the first marketing stuff I did in that regard. And then, you know, after CBS, I went to Sony pictures television, I'm a picture studio. And yeah, basically there I was doing kind of graphic design, e-tops, so helping with like billboard design and a lot of their kind of digital assets and yeah, building it kind of email marketing, templates and imagery and stuff. Yeah, did that for a couple of years before, before heading into the startup. And was all of that with like the design and the sort of, I guess we'd call it like early stage email automation, right? Was that all something that you'd learned in your degree or was that kind of a self-taught? Yeah. So I think yeah, like the degree was definitely foundational for sure. Like I definitely, it definitely formed my thinking, but almost everything that on my I was spending in terms of marketing, just being self-taught. Yeah, I think I've noticed that with most marketers as well. Yeah, I mean, there's really no other way to do it, I think. You kind of just have to, and that that was my, I was my thinking around going into startups. It's like get on the ground floor where you can actually do all of the marketing stuff. And then you have to learn, right? If you're doing it and you're doing it all, you have to learn it. So that was, that was my thinking basically. So yeah, let's talk about how you kind of made that transition that. So obviously early life was very soccer. And I mean, I think there's a lot of like guys at the moment around how athletes make incredible startup of red. So we can delve into that. But how did you kind of make that switch from essentially sort of media, let's say, like a media organizations into that startup world? Yeah. So after doing it for a couple of years, like I enjoyed working at this. It was, but it was kind of hard to see where to go next. We're kind of like, you know, I can kind of say in what I'm doing or like a quote, coordinator role or something like that. But I didn't say like it clear. And I guess like a rapid, uh, ladder. So yeah, like I kind of just was looking around and yeah, came across a few startups. Then I was actually interesting. The application was really interesting because more detailed and like they, oh, questions about like why I've been involved with this. Like because they were asking why do you want to work for us? Not what interests you. Not working for us. And I was like, oh, this is interesting. Like I can actually write about why I want to be involved and like, I pray myself in that way rather than you know, resume and just going into the most entry level position and stuff like that. So yeah, it was super lucky to be honest to fall into the startup. I did it and end up being a rocket ship. That was already a rocket ship when I joined. But yeah, it was also because when in it like a really great stage, but also exposed to really smart people. So it was the perfect and the entry point into startups. And what was that? What was that organization or company? Yeah. So they, when I joined, they were called the my bar majority. I was in the ad tech platform. And then I've changed their name twice. So while I was there, why the company called gimbal and then took on the name gimbal, which was interesting, but the spin off out of quality. I think, so it was kind of like had the big brand. So yeah, we took on an M name and then yeah, they've changed, I think they've had they can change three times, but now they're, now they're infillion and still add tech. And so I think. - Cool. And again, so add tech, so that would have been like early stages of Mar tech and the early stages of kind of those buzzwords. So interesting place to be too, right? 'Cause that helps build on those foundational skills that you already talking about learning. - Yeah, I think the most interesting thing was it was like very kind of like harder driven and like making decisions was kind of really oriented around that. And positioning was super interesting, making it such a complex landscape, like tech. So you've got so many players and like it's actually kind of hard to articulate where you sit in the ecosystem. So it really helped kind of me understand, okay, you know, how do you position yourself? How do you differentiate yourself? Not just, you know, on a marketing website, but also in Dex, things like that. Like how do you talking about how your company is different when it looks super similar to a lot of other add tech platforms? So yeah, I think inadvertently it, you know, it's helpful and was helpful in a number of ways. - And you think inadvertently that also sort of set you down the path? I mean, were you at this point definitely going to be in marketing regardless of kind of what industry? Like that was your, that was your section? - I think so. Yeah, I've always loved writing. I feel like the most writing oriented business function is pretty much marketing. So that was one of the main reasons. So yeah, and once I got into it, I loved the blend of design, writing, strategy, back on stuff. So yeah, once I was like, oh, yeah, this is actually pretty sweet. Like I'm not going to do anything else. - So moving on from that, I wanted to touch on the communication thing, because this was something that your wife said, you are a master communicator when it comes to both written and verbal, which scared me as a podcast interviewer, likely. But you know, talking about writing as well, and particularly this is a bit of a side topic, but you know, you scared of chat GPT. - No, I actually had a conversation and like a Christmassy, I did another part of the day. And yeah, it kind of, I don't know. I think so many things in like the start off and text base that just like, where else? And kind of just distractions. Like, isn't it important? Like, yes, well, we'll see, you know, what it kind of develops into. But yes, nothing worked in Abtech as well pretty quickly. Like, you know, oh, this new tech, and like, okay, what does it actually mean? What does it mean? Yeah, it's good, but like, I don't know, like the way I think about it is, it's like, if you ask a person that and they came up with that, that act, like you wouldn't be that impressed. And that's essentially what it's trying to do is to replace humans. So it's kind of like, well, until it's more impressive than a human being. So it's interesting, but no, until we're more productized that I don't think that enters into the kind of like, main thinking. - And then before I ask this question, do you want to give a quick intro as to your current role and where you are and what's that made for those who don't know? - Yeah, so, yeah, so I might as the software company started as Sydney and globally distributed and and all stuff where to build world companies like maybe industrial company, or oil and gas, I think, for sure, and forestry, marine, and anything along those sides. - In a nutshell, stuff where broadly speaking would put in like the project management type bucket. So yeah, this design specifically to those companies. And then in terms of what I do, yeah, VP of marketing, a bit of the company feel like four or a half years. So yeah, started early and then, yeah, if you see kind of own the marketing culture, but a bunch of others still as well from the early days. So you're looking to upload some of that stuff, see? - I think that's a common theme for anyone that's been listening to this podcast is that, particularly when you enter at that early stage, your role is slightly, I don't say irrelevant, but it's definitely not the only thing that you're gonna be doing every day. - No, and I was an SDR like two years of my time at Flatmate. - I've had a head of marketing. So yeah, you kind of do what's required, right? If you believe, if you believe in the company and the mission, then like putting it in the companies and making it work is, you know, it's worth it. - And that's also another interesting point, right? Like I think a lot of the time, this idea of joining a startup can be sort of romanticized. And I know why? Because I think when you're personally a part of buildings, I think it is one of the most, like, insanely incredible feelings in the world. But I think you kind of hit a point there, which is like you also have to really believe in the company. Because it's not a job, right? Like it's kind of, it exists between a job and a lifestyle. - Totally, yeah. Like I like, and yeah, at the moment Elon Musk is doing some kind of stuff. But in terms of like the way he thinks about work, life balance, I like it. 'Cause, you know, do you see them as this operation? Like if you enjoy your work, then what is the difference? Yeah, to me, to me, you have to believe in it. To do some of the hard-grab, for sure. Like otherwise, it's just like, if you don't see a lot at the end of the tunnel and you don't see it getting to where you want it to get, then it's harder to do some of that elbow grease. - Yeah, and also to like, sometimes be comfortable with the fact that you don't have those processes. I've noticed people that come in from super corporate backgrounds, which I think is great. And I think it just takes a little bit more time to break that line of thinking. But you have to be, you have to be really into it. You're not leaving it five every day. And not in a hustle, culture, work all the time way, but just in a way that if you're building something, you're thinking about it. - Yeah, totally great. And I think that can even be romantic. It's like the working, working days of hours and stuff like that. And yeah, we've just been through phases, I think, it's like, like, having to always work a lot. I've always worked on it, not at least. But yeah, having to always work too much. But yeah, it's great, is it, right? With different things that happen. So yeah, I think you've just got to be more flexible and you can't expect to just like, check out in the same way that you can, like, work for it. - Yeah, exactly. And I think that's also, there's probably just certain personality types, right? Like, I love that up and down of being, like, it's really busy right now. So I am switched on probably more than I should be. But in those times where it's not, I'm chilling. Like, we're doing the work, we're having fun, we're getting it done. We're always doing our best. It's always like, you know when to put the brakes on and when to accelerate because you have to view yourself as almost like a resource and make sure that you're refilling the car. - Yeah, and Evan flow is interesting. That I think is what is interesting about startups is that there is, it is dynamic, it changes a lot. So yeah, totally agree. I think that you have to be, have to be kind of invested at the level that, yeah, you're gonna enjoy that type of area. - So the question I was about to ask you too is, so you're in site-mate, which, yeah, so software for the built-in world, I think is kind of the tag line that we're gonna use in this particular. - Sounds good. You should be able to be in my company. You mentioned that, you know, you started in that tech space. So you've had a really good appreciation for that data driven metrics, way of working, but then you're also right up, which means that you are quite the sort of creative, and I think with sport as well, right, you're quite creative type of. So how do you bring that balance of creativity and data and metrics? And do you only ever operate in the sense of this says it's gonna do expires a site trusted or do you have that kind of gut feeling tuition marketing way of working as well? - So yeah, definitely an aspect of gut instinct, for sure. I think that a lot of it is just, yeah, it's just a blend. The creative stuff usually comes first, which I think is kind of the easiest part of it as well. Like, you do the thing, which is like semi-created, and then you, then you score the things, which is how to do it. So the flow is kind of natural, right? And it like makes sense. It's like, you know, do the kind of thing establish something and then measure it. So to me, it's just closing the loop on the creative thing, 'cause as a relatively logical person, I kind of imagine just creating and being like, oh no, it's going into the idea. So yeah, to me, it's closing the loop on what I created, right? It's like, okay, well, what did that do basically? - Yeah, that's interesting, 'cause I've played with people I've played with before, they sort of talked about your pragmatism and how you're a very kind of driven person, but it's a very pragmatic answer to a lot of things. This is how it works, so that's why we do it. - Yeah, I think it's annoying for a lot of people. I don't know, it's just the one thing, I get the view, the world, I actually think I become more like that as well. I don't know why, maybe I can slightly a little bit and I even found when I spent up style scores, I became more like a logic driven, which is kind of interesting. I was like started to see the world in that way. So yeah, who did that? - So kind of talking not so much specifically about site mate, but I guess about your journey. Like what has been your biggest learning or hurdle about who you are and how, and obviously I think it's pretty fair to say that most of us work is what, 75, 80% of our lives. So it has an impact on you. How do you think that these roles and moving into startups and working with software and being that pragmatic market? How do you think that's kind of changed you or shaped you? - I don't know that it was changed me. I think it like augments you. It becomes a part of you in some ways, but an interesting thing is I'm not actually a very identity driven person. So I don't see myself like working in the startup realm. You know, I don't, that's just not part of my identity. Even being a marketer is not really part of my identity. Like my identity is really fluid. So I just kind of like take what I've learned and don't think too much about it and you just kind of come with it. I've been told that you're very good at separating your personal life and your work life, which I think is actually kind of an interesting nugget because I think a lot of people in this space sometimes their personality kind of becomes their work life a little bit. And I see why back to what we were talking about before, which is you have to really believe in it and in order to do that like slog, you really need to kind of be I guess all in. But how do you how do you kick those things separate like how do you have lands who can be lands and then have lands who is really great at these jobs but I think I've always just been part mentalized parts of my life, you know from when I was younger like I think it's the identity thing mostly I even when I played soccer I played a lot soccer but like that wasn't like who I thought of myself as to like to me I can part mentalize it because I don't care but there's not a lot of a lot I think I'm really true to who I am across you know across the the different kind of Iranian but yeah I think it's quite easy and like to me it is interesting with people because like I don't know it's some people love sharing who they are and talking about themselves a more of the and it's not going to be across like this in the podcast because I'm talking but I'm definitely more of a listener than a talk out as well so I think I don't think I really come across in that that wrong away I think people why I just kind of you know that's question essentially which then you're not really talking like yourself because you're asking questions but then I don't go into work and talk about my family because I don't really want to talk about myself I want to talk about other people because that's more interesting to me than yeah and myself. I tell like I get that I will just tell everyone that I've made lots to talk about himself so he's not doing it. I think it's an interesting thing that you kind of put forward because that staying true to yourself I think it's it's really good advice. And so kind of taking that how would you describe how you operate in the workplace you're obviously to a stage where I think you really know who you are and probably a lot of people are listening to this getting there or on that journey so how do you how you operate? Yeah I think it comes back how you have grown up and you're interested in stuff like that at least why I think about myself when I played soccer and four is I used to really break down every aspect of an activity like I was you know I was always thinking about well this is just like a bunch of opponents that gather from the way they now come right it. If you're if you're tendin bowling then you can break it down and you know walking up to the line like it may you know all of those things so I think I'm just similar at work it's just break it down into components then and ways to think about it and then just kind of go from there like if you understand the piece then it's quite easy to improve it's like understand it and think about it first and then like you actually don't need to make too much your little like to just improve because it's like I know well now I know how to break it down so now I can just like improve each of the aspect. And is that an aid or was that taught? Does that something that you because I mean to me the way you're talking is it makes sense right that you work in a sort of engineering heavy area because that's like a very methodical way of looking at challenges or problem solving. Yeah I think it's I think it's partly personality and definitely has been I think for the emphasize like working with sidelight and partly specifically I'll see you know I think the other and the aspect to me about how I operate knows all the stem largely from what and like the way I get out like which is just consistency like all I think about with most things is and it's a great example like pen and pencil and write it's really about consistent. Yes it does quality matter of cool like you know to the inputs matter yeah of course the one if you looked at the driving force behind almost anything and any like a look at a bird but at any company doing really well any individual doing well like it's it's once better consistent. I think that's a very interesting point too because oftentimes we hear stories about you know I'm going to use two of the biggest examples like Canva have made all this money and you know dominating globally at last year and have made all this money and dominantly and I think often we think about Canva and at last year and today without realizing that these companies have been around for a really long time and to go back to your point the real thing there is consistency right like everything can be done well if you just keep trying and to your point breaking it down understanding well why did that go badly. Totally yeah and and being intentional and consistent like I think that's the combination that's like if you're consistent and intentional then the outcomes that you have to be really good conflict if you if you learn how you're in control about how to improve and there's a there's a term in sport like deliberate practice which is change my pull and I actually did do it in a bit when I used my sport and then like someone put a label on it I was like oh what's once full and if anything is that it's like breaking everything down and then like practicing each element and then like you can both move into like a gang like the gang then then the outcomes are are usually good so now I think I think Pam and Ella passing through great examples and only people use the point now because the soar down and the line but hundreds and it was just it was just consistency and getting intentional about like the vision and then having a clear car you know to that vision but without that consistency you know you don't get anywhere on that path. And diving into that intentionality thing as well I think I hear people talking about being intentional a lot especially in their space if you were talking to your younger self how do you describe using intentionally or being intentional in a way that is that was the example that I was thinking of actually yeah so I think in most of it's like I guess you could probably use the word or pull like interchangeably because I see a lot of people early in that careers and they kind of let that happen so they get it into a role and then they you know they like do a good job or a decent job or an average job but they're not thinking about like what they want to do next they're not being intentional about like creating the inputs and the types of outcomes that will like get them to the next step or a different direction right if you want to change direction then you should be intentional about what you're doing outside of work or what you're doing in your role or how you're talking to your managers or whatever and so much of it is just like having clarity yeah I think as well like being intentional and having clarity around what you do like when I went into startup I pretty much think my head was like okay that's like my thing intern you can't market in coordinators so quickly so just try to be good intern as you and Charlie that was kind of the next there from coordinator like you know learn from a good marketing manager right what is that kind of like learning up about a few channels to be able to manage and then it was like okay now I need to go to like a really early stage startup so that I can be lifted kind of with the startup in my career and then you can become the head of marketing like you know pretty easily if the company grows because you know everything because you're on the ground floor and then that just you know turned into head of marketing and then walk away you know maybe not luckily but you know so I might went on to you know they're good I could company for a half-life years later and said you know now my title is is the pay of marketing yeah that for me was very intentional like I that's how I store it involving I think there's a good point along that road to though right it's not just about title jumping right the other thing that you kind of mentioned there was learning that's number one you there's no point in being a VP of marketing if you don't know what you talk you're gonna get found out very quickly so it's learning at that junior stage where you're where you're afforded mistakes and then pushing yourself into early stage where you then the buck is on you and you have to figure it out yeah and then you need to be in touch at all about your strengths of weight and growth yeah right and that's the thing there and it's like it just be intentional about bolstering your weakness there's basically I'm using your strengths and then I see other things like just double down on the things that you're good at and they ring I see you never recognize what that week at so like you know be intentional about improving those things and then you know six months a year later you'll wave them up if you were and then you know the title such as half of the price just not the lack of being intentional about improving basically so like going back to that working on your weaknesses things because I think that's a really interesting point as well would you say that there's been points in your career where you've been like I really need to learn to XYZ and gone out and just done 100% all the time but I mean I'm super thankful that we live in native Google because otherwise it would be I would do marketing before the internet that's what I want out of anything like yeah it's it's it's currently the domain tape and imagine that but now to me there's no it's not ever perfect I don't even understand that because all of the relation that you need is is that your fingertips sorry yeah I think one of one of my good friends actually talked about it a bit and he says that's not really two things they drop people we're like doing the things that like you do all should do all right and I just fear and like I think and I think it's pretty true like you're either kind of be out of putting yourself in an environment where you're out of your depth which is probably like cool but like you know also good to do that or you know or you're lazy if it goes so do you think you know but but if you can get beyond those two things then that to me is like no level of just like you can get beyond your amazingness then the rest is pretty pretty cool and that kind of goes back to that idea that you choose your luck and it's not you know we talk about luck a lot but and you even just said it before right then I was lucky enough but it's not luck you you've worked out it and you've been consistent intentional and it's led to a result because very much like any kind of marketing strategy. If you know what you want to achieve up front, you understand what you need to do to achieve it, and then you measure the success of that thing and then redo it again and chances are, you're going to it's going to work. Yeah, like Polunkas was so dreamed of, you know, I don't have to listen to, and there's how I built this, the bone gals, and he always asks me to the founders, and how much of your duty was to do with black contestants, how it worked, and consistent with the stats, and I always love and grant the title of the people who put a lot of like big journey onto luck. And I think it's just like maybe it's probably been Australian or you know, whatever, but I don't know, I still think, I still think you do need, you do need a lot. And I think putting it on luck is like all kind of a good thing because then what you do is you do everything that you can, and then understand that the other stuff is out, it's out of your control. So it's kind of like, okay, I won't flex it, I'm not going to work, I'll just do everything that I can, I'm like, you can't, that's the outcome, just blame that on luck. If it doesn't work yet. Yeah, and then you obviously take the successes as hard work and persistence, but you can just say, well, bad timing. No, or not, right? Or yeah, or that was luck as well. I think the interesting thing, yeah, I think sometimes you have to look at yourself from the outsiders and you're like an object within the world. And then if you do you're in your, you're in my fear and stuff because like, you're kind of just a player. And it's like, okay, well, like if something goes right, like, you're like good for once, if something goes wrong, that's a shag, man. You know, figure that feeling. It's like, it's that kind of thing. Plans invented meta in his head using, I also think luck is an interesting topic in all of this because I also believe that there's a certain amount of luck just in our circumstances, right? You were born as someone who was good at sport and in a country that was wealthy and you were born with a good brain. And I think, I think about this a lot all the time as well. People like you and I were born lucky because we, we do fit into the way that our world is like we fit into that kind of commercial capitalist mentality. The things that you and I are good at are very useful in society. It's like that isn't currently helpful. But if you're born in 2020 and you're an incredible bootmaker, like what are the chances that you're even going to find that? Yeah, zero. And that's only made like, you can never not put hate song what. Yeah. That's kind of what I'm getting at. It's like, it's like such a big pace because yeah, even to me, like, personality is just luck. You're born with your place and it's funny because I always say people are like morning routines and stuff and like I've always made a morning person and I don't really have like a morning routine, but I always wake up early and I actually think it's a massive advantage. Yeah. But I never like tried to do it. Like I didn't, you know, I think it's kind of this lucky that like I wake up early in the morning. You know, I say there's all of the factors to me that's just how we could be cranked. So I mean, you've just kind of got along with that. And then okay, so moving kind of on if you want to give yourself some advice early on in your career, when you are more junior and I think, you know, usually this can go across different. It doesn't just have to be marketing advice, right? One of the things that you either wish you had done better or feel in hindsight were massively important to your growth. Yeah, I think I think if I were to go, I would like reinforce some of the thoughts that I thought were maybe true. And I didn't know it would true. So like it took a while to kind of like, you know, see them play out. Like as an example earlier in the conversation, we talked about like being your spell and I had a conversation with that some early in my career about that. And I was like, I was so sure like, now you can be yourself from these successful like, but I couldn't say that with any sense because I didn't have the career. For out, so it was like this weird position to be in and she, you know, she was like, you know, you need to alter your own personality slightly. And I just, I think it's true. And so I think if I went back, I would say those things, you know, it would help just like eliminate a lot of kind of things out. So there's a time that stuff that you learn as you go. But I think like first principle, the stuff is over years like now, it's like a term. But I think yeah, mostly thinking in those ways is super helpful. And one of the, for myself is like the basics of what matter more, more than anything else. I don't think there's, I think there's, you know, too much to it. It's just three things pretty well. They can just turn back about it. So it's less good like, but yeah, if I was to go back, it would be like, it's a little less complex than you think. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, another thing we kind of touched on before, over like knowing your strengths and know your weaknesses. One thing that I've noticed and has been sort of like reaffirmed for doing this podcast is your confidence and your, your credibility is more when you're really honest about what you're shit at. And I think like, that's another thing, right? Like be yourself and also work, yeah, work hard, do the things, try how I experiment, set goals, be intentional, all of that. But, you know, where there are things that you are just not naturally great at. Also, just be honest about that and pull in someone who's better. 100% and like, even with things that you're good at, like, I think, you need to be honest about the things that you get out. Like this, this weird thing, I think with people where like they don't meet or like, don't pray what they do. And like, to me, that's super weird. You know, whatever else is good at and you're living with yourself every single day. Like, obviously no way you sit relative to the people, like, why aren't you just great, honest? I think that I hope you agree with this. But I think one of the most important things about being in marketing is that openness to always learn new things and kind of change the way you think can beat that up. Because, you know, as you know, like markets change and especially as you're jumping around between different businesses from AdTech to, you know, SaaS products for the bit, well, you have to be able to kind of question your own biases. So how do you a question your envisage and and be like, how do you measure your own personal growth? Yeah, I think kind of, unlike the change and stuff like that, I don't know. I think probably one of my strengths is that I don't change that much. And again, I think that's just like, no, being scarily, you know, I know kind of changing your attention or the time like, again, it's being consistent and intentional, like, if you believe this core thing is going to be a thing, then like why did you do that? So I think that's a strength in marketing when it's probably underrated. Like I think we know sales marketing people, a lot of product people, once the next thing we need to do that, it's like, well, have out to the thing that, like, you know, you know, all these other massive, simple companies that are already there, like, you know, others, AI and stuff, but what about sales? What? Have you there still been software? You know, so to me, I think that's kind of a strength. How do you define that line though? Some of the, you know, some of the most exciting new ideas that we all held as incredible have probably come from being a bit scarily, right? From being like, "Reshaal." How can I fix it? So how do you define that line? Or maybe another question is, do you see yourself purely as an operator? Yeah, I think so more than an inventor for sure. Like, do I see myself as wanting to create something entirely, or like invent something, or do I see myself as going in day to day and like building something? It's definitely the lot of for sure. So yeah, 100% like you need, you need to think it's like that, right? That's 100% true, and they start amazing companies, they're amazing technologies, and so you need those, but in many eyes, without the operators, like those ideas, like, obviously nothing. So my role is to be strong, and like me, that's, you know, as important, I see the idea for sure. Yeah, I mean, that's what this whole podcast is about, so I'm glad we got that sound, but, but no, I've always agreed, like I think, you know, we build up the idea of the founder or the creative or the inventor a lot, and I know why, because we all find those stories amazing and aspirational and credible, right? But you and I both know that once you're in a company, if you don't have the cogs that are turning the wheel, if everyone in the meeting is the person that's like, I've come in here with a great idea, but doesn't want to do the work, then great ideas are basically what was they saying? A strategy without execution is just hallucination. So if you don't have the people that are actually going to turn it into execution, you're literally talking to yourself. Yeah, totally, and I think I think that, yeah, that the idea is, and it's interesting even with some of the new technologies, we might save your life on execution to your ideas being more important. A lot of the groundwork done by what, I mean, stuff like that, which would be interesting. But yeah, to me, like, and that's why I was, you know, so became on the your subject matter is because yeah, I do, I do think that overriders are a bit, well, naturally invisible, right? And like, the thing is most of them, I think don't mind being invisible for the most part, which is probably part of the problem. Well, it takes someone else to surface them, right? I think that's the interesting thing as well. It's like, you know, yes, you know, it's sometimes the best operator as well. So, you know, in that way, you know, like, then 100% right, they deserve all the credibility, but 100% for my research, it's the overriders are definitely like two invisible. given the impact they have. No, I would agree. I also think that a lot of times particularly people have spoken to a lot of operators of generalists and it seems to be irrespective of roles. So whether you're a marketer or a product person, it's been really eye-opening to see that, you know, you're talking about jumping into a sales role or jumping into a marketing role and I'm sure that there's been loads of other roles that you've done under that VP of marketing and breller. But I think that's another thing that often gets kind of missed is that you need those people in businesses, particularly in some environments that can do different things and are interested in trying different things. So I think it comes back to that finding people that are interested in learning over. For sure. And I think like good operators, I mean the main thing that probably different jokes of them is they find interest and my curiosity in potentially the mundane stuff. It's not like they may not be the sexy thing, but like you can find sexy stuff about sale phones, you know, and like the way that they're seeing up like you know, interesting and engaging. You just have to hang your attitude of them. But I think that's the other thing is like the idea in Chopin's betray, which is you know found there and that kind of thing. But there's also ideas within every single function and every single stage, you know, I'll do this as well and you and operate. It's often like driving those. Like we do this right away, tweak it. That sometimes is more impact, you know, than the idea right? It might be like, fly check. It's not a war. You know what I mean? So not often doesn't get seen either. Like he's an invention. What about the person that had the idea to you know, yeah, and then actually have that. Yeah, and I think that I think that is a really good point to write because a lot of the time I especially younger people I notice that they're an operator, but you know, loftily somewhere along the line, they'd like to start something one day, which is great. And I think it's about to do that. But at the same time, you are right. Like you have so much control in a business. If you are a operator who works really hard has proven, you know, they work in salt, probably your pool in the organization or your ability to impact change in the organization is greater than some people to buy out. I think so. And the cool thing is that if you're an operator, you can control your idea. Yeah. So like I do say, you know, let's do this. So like this thing, like you know, I'd be and you're making it look like you're good. Yeah, because you're in control and you're going to actually do it. Yeah. And like most of it, if we agree, I think you know, it's mostly about execution, then if you can execute well, and so you make your own ideas, like it's about, I guess, like confirming whether you ideas are good. And like only an operator can do that, right? They can think about something, do the thing. And then say like, oh, that was, you know, I've been idea or not. Yeah, I've been thinking about this idea of internal currency, a lot right. Like, you know how there are people in businesses that will say, Lance, we need to do X, where's there? And I want you to go and execute this idea that I've come up with because I'm the idea person in this particular function. And you go, yeah, no worries. And you walk away and you do a really good. And then that credibility becomes like a currency intern. And then so when you go, I have a really great idea because you've got this currency of well, Lance is really good at executing things. So his idea sounds good. Like let's see what happened. And then you said you've got all of the resources and all of the ability to just go and smash that out of the park, which just mean not not from a role perspective, but just from a person of growth perspective, you start being able to impact change early in the stage of the business. I think so. And the one I look at ideas is anyone can have a good idea. And and the interesting thing to me is that was one thing that I got earlier micro a sit down and I could like feel like I have a decent idea. And that's one thing we really encourage us. I make like put a point on the table. And you're in your role as well. So you think you should have the best ideas. Right. Because you're like doing it every day. So yeah, I think that I think that I tried to just set the idea based on the idea rather than where the idea is coming from. I like the idea. It's separate from the past. So I should be seeing as that right. I guess what the best of that is like if it's a good idea. It's a good idea. Yeah, I think you need to take secure this right now. But yeah, I think I think I can come from anywhere. And again, that's a product of your upbringing. You know, that's my diversity. That's at the stage event. What because just creates ideas. Yeah, I think yeah, I mean, that is something that we're getting better up as a world or society. So then going back to I want to kind of zone in quickly on how you like to manage your teams as someone who likes to control the process. Like how do you let go of that control and help each other? That's a good question. It's always hard. But not really. Like it's hard and someone really wants it from and then it's so badly to give it up. I'm always trying to get step away at some night. Like it's like, oh, you want this thing like as long as you can, you know, I do it and I'm not that I'm like, have it. Sort of like getting to that state is sometimes challenging of this like, but yeah, I think I think the way I tried to manage is. It's just in the way of trying to make everyone as good at that. And what that's possible. I'm like, what can I do to help them? Like, right? Like how can I? There's still or I'm in them. And these are the years. Most of the time I find that the most impact I feel like I have that least is actually just talking about like general direction. You know, it's because most people do the day to day of most jobs, especially in software companies, like they're not that complicated. Like what makes you good is like being loaded a that, you know, I'm thinking about it and you're carrying about it and stuff like that. So to me, my job is often just like that side of it. It's like, you know, if nothing, then I understand where we're going and like, you know, where they're going and stuff like that. Yeah, the just because what probably my biggest criticism of startups to be honest, coming from a background. I mean, I like I'm working advertising at the moment and I came from an advertising background and an interesting thing about advertising is it has that sort of startup mentality, unlike culture, if you will. But what I will give them a lot of credit for is that as you rise, you are taught how to manage people. And I think my biggest criticism of startups is a lot of the time people put into management roles because they really good at their jobs. But managing people, as you know, is one of the most difficult things you will ever do aside from your job. And so I think that's a really great answer because that learning that you need to help people figure out what they're good at is more important than managing people or telling people how to do the job. Yeah, and I sort of noticed like I didn't see myself as an editor in the traditional sense like, yeah, I kind of, I just want to help the person, you know, become good at the thing that they're the company to do stuff like how, how can I do that? I'll pretty much do that. That's basically the way I look at obviously that's super general right and obvious, but I don't think that many managers do it. Like I think a little bit of managers are being managers like conventional wisdom like I'll do one on one's and we'll talk about this thing. I'll teach according to this label, you know, stuff like that. Yeah, I think I think if you look at it again in like relatively simple to it, it makes it easier. And I think the people can see then that you're trying to help them as well. No, it's a good. The common theme is like there's all these titles and labels and stuff in the world, but like if you strip it back, like what are you actually just trying to achieve? And if you strip all that stuff away, then like it's actually pretty simple. Like your job is to make these people better at their job. So you know, like it's not about again being a manager or like a title and stuff like that. I just think labels and stuff. It's like all learning so many people. And again, it makes them not themselves. Like now you're this thing. So like acts like this. And you got there because you acted in a way that you think so like you should continue to like them that they know I largely obviously like not complete. So we're gonna wrap up soon that I wanted to ask the couple of questions I want to get to the first one is just who's an operator that you've worked with who or you're not even the you worked with who you know who you just think is a kind of force in the Australian ecosystem. And I know you don't really see yourself as like a set up tech row and I know you're not hitting up the events every week. But I'm sure you met people in your life that you've just been like wow, like your powerhouse. Yeah, definitely not defending all of the events. Yeah, that's that's making a few definitely a few you at well, and then several companies the biggest fourths in terms of like operator. I met in Australia because this is without a doubt. And the interesting thing is looking back, yeah, looking back on the type of operators and and even just like leaders I gravitate towards and this one says as well, like I love way of managing. Yeah, like I love people who can do the thing that they talk about. Yeah, to me is like really important. And outside may we kind of have that culture all of us are operators like Tim CTO is the operator for you. some operator, you know, armored operator. And I gravitate towards people like that. And that's kind of like my career. Like even when I think about early days, it was people who, yeah, they could be in whatever role, but they could do the thing that they were involved with better than, you know, better than anyone. So, yeah, I've learned hate from hate, specifically. And yeah, I think, the interesting thing about like being inspired by people is, if I need, especially when you're doing it, because you can like pick the things that you like about people and kind of bolt them on to your arsenal as well as you go. So, yeah, you can say, oh, well, hardly, it's like such an amazing operator in all these ways. And like, you know, bolt that on, like, you know, he showed me how to do that. And then, you know, threatened from previous people, they bolt on a bunch of staff. And then you end up, you know, hopefully being like a mega person or something at the end. That is true. I think I am a product of all of the amazing people that I've worked with. And then the next one is, what are some, and I don't want to be too prescriptive about this. It's not necessarily like, what's your favorite marketing resource. But what are the resources that you think have really helped shape how you operate? Yeah, there's been, I'm always been like, I guess the writing thing like, I like reading when I only read nonfiction. Only read nonfiction. Yeah. Just in general, you don't ever, don't ever dally with the dealing with the fiction. I read fiction. And then I just started to like, I've started to want to be in the real world. And not in not in fantasy world. Like, I wanted to think about the real world. So, yeah, so, yeah, definitely, definitely like reading. I have a bit of a philosophy on, I guess, consuming content and self and resources. And that's like, I think the only need to consume so much content, a data specific on a topic or a set yet before you kind of understand the patterns well enough to move on. So that's largely how how I would go about resources is whatever your interest is, whatever your next step is in your career. Like, consume a bunch of content about that thing. But only to the point where you kind of start to notice that it feels like semi-repetitive, because you've heard it before or most. And that happens with books, I'll break books about specific topic in them. And kind of, so that's the settings you've all kind of saved me. And I kind of understand the patterns now. So, like, you've kind of gone far enough in that thing to establish the patterns and be able to talk about it and think about it and stuff like that. And then move on to the next topic. And that way, I think you really need your knowledge. And then you get really diverse set of the interests understanding what perspective then. Yeah, it's some moments each, you know, each topic that you've kind of invested in early days. So the only podcast or, yeah, because books you can't continue or something, doesn't do. The only podcast I've listened to every episode is actually free economics. And it's just because like, it's different. Yeah. Never been ever to pattern that because they always talk about something that's no different. Right. So I've never found, like, a point of like, oh, this podcast like fell the same as that previous one, because it's always so different. Is there one marketing resource or book that you think is actually where? She. Yeah, it's salt. Like, I tend to agree with you what you said earlier. I genuinely believe that marketing is one of the oldest professions in the world. And it doesn't really need to be talked with that much. Yeah. The, the best marketing of all that I think by a significant distance is Seth Godin. And obviously, a lot of people are wearing accept Godin. And I think it's because he talks about marketing in like a traditional sense. And like, and a human sense, like not all tactics, those strategies that help people think. This is how I perceive all of them. And I like that, you know, which chance of a route of what we can give an experience. Which I think is interesting. So yeah, I'd say Seth Godin from a marketing standpoint. I have one question which is nothing to do with your work life or anything. I just really need to ask you about it. I want to know about the five foods in a year experience. Oh, yeah, that was a good one. I've heard, I've heard like, the context for everyone listening. Lance is a bit of a personal journeyman. He likes to go on personal journeys. I'm intentioned to know a lot of the time. But yeah, I guess like doing activities and stuff, you end up in some private situations as well. Yeah, actually picked up a couple of stomach problems in pan. And then I think it is, I mean, it is a disease. Come to the end, feel like the soft and jobless. So it's like swelling up the yourself against. Yeah. So it was kind of it was weird journey because it took ages to like even figure out what it was. I had like chest pains and a sore throat and stuff like that. And then basically there was two parts that I could take one was, you know, medicine, which was kind of seen as the conventional part. And then actually my matter suggested that I go to a naturopath. And like I never really thought about that. I was like, sounds kind of, sounds kind of cookie. But then I went and you know, they said, well, you know, you basically screwed up your, your gut microbiome. So you need like rebuild it. And the only way to do that is to basically go back to like super, you know, non-inflammatory foods. So like, basically go right and everything and then do like an elimination diet. But from almost nothing. So there was a point at which I was eating rice and sweet potato and that was actually it. And then I slowly, I literally ingradiant off the ingredient. And so it took like a year and a half to do it. And I loved it. I loved the journey. And it's got weird. It was, yeah, it was, it was so interesting because I think that's what also keeps me engaged is like, me probably won't allow that. It's like, it's the journey. I've been at the everyday progress that you feel. And it was so interesting because I'd actually, I'd had a food in and that was the progress. I still feel, you know, I still feel like, okay, I'm like progress. And so this like super tight feedback loop that I had that I had on on myself and now it's feeling. And yeah, like it turns out, you know, after all of it, like I, you know, I self-problem. I haven't feel practically fine now. And then I solved that problem. And yeah, long through it. And I'm, um, created a new journey from myself. So yeah, a bit of a sucker. I'm just trying that thing. I think that's really interesting. It's a really lovely kind of why I like startups is because I like the feedback loop and I like to feel my progress is. Well, it's got the chance to say the same thing. And like that's why I love sport. Yeah, but the same sport. Yeah, this constant feedback loop on improvement. Yeah. And it's like it's super fulfilling. So and I actually was playing it into my thinking you're adding in the resources because I read four or five books about foods and like information and stuff like that. And to me, it was so my life because I'd been my whole life never even like I hate relatively healthy, but I'd never even really thought about it as a thing. One final question. And this one is really to be interpreted however you want. But what's your kind of vision for the future? I really have one. I think, yeah, it's interesting like I think I actually would, yeah, I've been thinking a bit about it with a couple of things that are going on. And my destructive on it is in the short term, and the stone change as far as we as people think they will. So like, you know, YouTube, you comes out and everyone's like, oh, the world's changing so fast. And like, you know, it's ending and all this stuff. And then it's like, probably not. Like, probably will look pretty similar. So but what I do think is that like people underestimate what it will look like probably in like 15 or 20 years as an example. And the reason for that is I think it's more increment changes that compound like could be rapidly. So like, what do I think you want to look like in a couple of years? Like, I think it'll be remarkably similar. But I think it'll be pretty different. And we're in, it's like, we're thinking it's better, it's possible to even think about what that will be. It's like without coming it out. And yeah, I'm thinking about like, you know, the days out there, I think it's sad to predict. So I don't, I try not to think about it too much. It's kind of like, yeah, live in, live in the moment. And yeah, I do the best you can. Yeah, nice. I think there's been like a lot of really interesting tips and very insightful bits as to what makes up plants from sight met. So I just want to close up by saying thank you so much for coming on. Thanks, thanks for having me. And that's it for today. Today's episode was recorded and edited by me, your host for Lemon Utin. The original music composition by Steven Schatten and photography by Philip Lemiserie. Thanks for staying and we'll see you next time. [BLANK_AUDIO]