Ep. 7 - Aaron Shust on the Difference Between a Dream and a Calling

Just because you have a dream, it would be dangerous to call that dream you're calling. And until it becomes a reality, you can't call it your assignment. And part of the maturing process, as followers of Jesus, is to trust that God's got a plan that will be executed, otherwise I'm not sure he deserves the title, God. I'm winning singer songwriter, and my friend Aaron Shoest, welcome in. Sam Hart, good to be here, my friend. I've been looking forward to this one, dude. Likewise. Usually, we're hanging out over pizza, though. Well, I mean, I'm just trying to pass on the love that's been shared with me, starting with this little place in Atlanta called Antico, that then spread out in the Nashville. It's called Desanos. So if you're in Nashville, you got to hit Desanos. And you got to get the San Janeiro pizza. You know what, Nashville is becoming a place, Sam, or more and more people want to come and visit. You know, I meet people all the time, like, oh, Nashville's on my bucket list. I got to come see Nashville. I don't know why they want to, but when they do come, they should visit. Are we sponsored by Desanos? Is this episode sponsored by. I hope we get some free merch after this. Right. But yeah, I can vouch for it. Desanos is awesome. Folks have said the same thing to me, like, oh, I love Nashville. We're going there this summer, whatever. It's interesting because this, it's a place where, you know, I've been, I've been coming and visiting to work for over 20 years. And for the past eight years, been living here. I joke, but I'm dead serious. I said a long time ago. It wasn't like two God and a prayer. I think I knew better than that. But how many times in passing did I say, yeah, I'll work in Nashville, but I'll never live there. And I think it's because I felt like I was, when I was coming to visit to work, it felt like one big office. And I didn't want to live in the office. I want to be able to quote unquote, go home every once in a while. And so I jokingly say that if you want to, if you want to move to Nashville, just announce before God that you will never live in Nashville, and chances are he'll move you there. But man, it's been wonderful living here. But it's the place where we, you know, it's the place where we get our groceries. It's the place where our kids go to school, where we go to church, where we get work done. So to me, it doesn't have this mysterious shine, but it's home. It's where my family is, so I love it. Well, for those listening that don't know much about your story, I was hoping you could give a recap of just, you know, where you grew up and how you got into music and a little bit of that journey that got you to where you are now. Yeah, totally. I call Pittsburgh my home town. I was born in Chicago. My dad worked for American Airlines. And he was, he was stationed in Chicago for 10 years. That's where I was born. But just, I think like a year and a couple months into my life, we moved back to Pittsburgh where he was raised. A little town outside Pittsburgh called Alequipa. And it's pretty much known for football and some good Italian food. But that's where I was from. And we went to this tiny little church where my mom was in charge of the music. Everything from, you know, what the choir was going to sing on any given Sunday, special music, what the offer Tory was going to be. And then planning the big, I think there was two contadas. You know, that word, like, like, big musical numbers, big specials. One would be at the end of the summer. And then one would be at the end of one would be Christmas. I guess there might have been an Easter one as well. The kids, the kids at the end of summer performance. That's what it was because we would practice all summer long. Because my mom was doing the adults choir. So anyhow, just music, music, music, church, church, church. So I think the first time she put me up on stage to sing a solo, I was four years old on the Sunday night. Don't even really remember doing it. I remember, I remember the song because I sang that song a number of times over the years. But those two things, church and music together were a big part of who I was. I went to public school. I always felt a little out of my depth. I went to summer camps was the place, like, church camps where I felt the most comfortable. Like, I could be me. Like, I'm surrounded by a couple hundred other kids who also believe that Jesus is the Lord. And then when music and worship would happen during those summer camp moments, that was just like, this is incredible. The idea that, you know, we're now, we're not just singing hymns, which I love now, but I thought we're antiquated old school stuff. But now we're singing these, you know, these choruses, like, shine, Jesus shine. Like, we're talking like late 80s, early 90s songs, right? And I loved it. So I went to school. I went to college and to Koa Falls College, a private Christian school in Northeast Georgia. That's what brought me south for the first time. I was, I was tired of being cold. So I moved, moved to the south and got a degree in music education. So I'd be able basically to teach high school chorus. But I always had this dream since I was 13 and I saw Michael W. Smith on TV, on Cornerstone Television, they played music videos. Performing, which I guess was his live set, which I think was the big, is that the same thing as the big picture tour. It was around like the early 80s. And there's Chris Rodriguez playing that pink strata caster and Michael W. Smith playing a keyboard and singing these songs. Like, I had the cassettes. I knew these songs. I'm like, this is incredible. Like, this is a job. You can actually write songs and sing songs about Jesus that sound like this. Like, sign me up. Let's do that. And so that was, that was my pipe dream from a, from childhood. So then fast forwarding the, my college, my degree choices, performance, which was going to be opera. And I don't have a vibrato, by the way. It's just, it's just flat. Unless I, like, we've recorded together every once in a while. You're like, dude, I think I just heard vibrato. It's like, it's an anomaly. Like the, yeah, that's because I was back here shaking my head. That's why. So like, that's hilarious. Being an opera major. Like, I remember asking my vocal coach my very first day as a freshman. I'm 17 years old. I went early asking him like, how? Here I am on college now. Tell me what's the secret? How, how does, how does one achieve vibrato? And he look, he looked mystified. Like, he just didn't understand. He was like, if you do it correctly, it just happens. Like, well, that's not going to help. So I still don't know how to do that. But it's interesting. Like, if we're going to make this my story somewhat practical. Like, I'm taking these steps that I felt were wise. Like, let's get a degree in music education. But there's still this dream in the back of my mind. I would love to write songs that are Column Pop, Column Rock, whatever. That are, but not like, not a hundle or a Bach. But they were writing what was pop music for their time, right? It was one of the right songs and music that was current for today that had lyrics that pointed to the depth and the beauty and the power of the love of God as found in Scripture. That was, and maybe I couldn't have verbalized that. I just wanted to write Jesus' music. And so that was my hobby. That's what I did late at night. I'd go into the practice rooms and I would do an hour of my scales and work on the songs that I had to perform from my piano minor that I had to perform before my professor the next week. But then I would turn the lights off. I'd literally just make the room as dark as possible. And I would just play. I would just write. And I would try to play a song that I heard in the radio. Like, I remember learning Amy Grant's Breath of Heaven from her Christmas album. That's that beautiful B minor is a beautiful piano part. Like, I'm going to figure this out. I'm not going to buy the sheet music. It's probably wrong anyhow. I'm going to figure this out. And that's, that's where this love of songwriting honestly began in college, trying to write songs about that felt journalistic to me. Like, let's just write songs as if I were going to write in my journal. What's the, what would this prayer sound like? Put a little band together after I graduated state in town. Got the, got the bug to make band music and write songs that talked about God, whether it was, it wasn't very worshipful yet. It was more like I said, the good journal with prayer journals. But it wasn't working out. Nobody was interested. No one was signing me. And then I met a girl and I wanted, I wanted her parents to give me permission to marry her. So I got a real job at a church in Atlanta. I was actually, as a worship leader, but I wasn't going in to be hired as a worship leader. I was looking for a position as an arranger to like arrange other music for the band and for the orchestra. That was going to be my job. I was going to sit in a cave in the basement and just arrange the sheet music for the band. That tracks dude. Like having worked with you. You're one of the most, I don't know, music theory oriented. Or just saying that I would work with. No, not overly beautifully analytical. Thank you. You're very intentional, very thoughtful and I also love the gleam in your eye. How you nerd out about it. Just like, oh, and then we can do these harmonies that do this. And I'm like, that's jazz and I love it. It's fun to get creative. That sounds like such a general statement. It's fun to push the envelope too far. Sometimes you pull it back to sanity and sometimes you leave it and you realize it wasn't too far. You can always dial it back if you need to for whatever reason. But very rarely do I think, that's too much. Absolutely. I love that about you, dude. I love that you're willing to just have fun and play and splash paint all over the canvas. Yeah, right? Yeah. Here's a crazy idea. I'm just tossing spaghetti. If it sticks, it sticks. If it falls, let it fall. But the church didn't hire me for that. They actually took, and this guy took me out for sushi. And he said, well, we've been interviewing this other guy. And he's really good. As a matter of fact, he's better than you. We're going to hire him. But we like the way you lead worship. So we like to hire you as a worship leader. Really? So that season brought in like me writing songs that felt more worshipful. Because I had a captive audience every Sunday that wasn't gathering to see me. I'd love to believe they were gathering to meet with God. But they were there. And I was on stage with a microphone. And we started singing songs about, not just about God, but to God. There's the difference. And I'm like, that, this is, this is pretty spectacular. What if I could write songs to God that we could sing together? And that, that, again, a new challenge. that eventually led to an album that eventually led to 10 more. Yeah, man, and it's so interesting here you say that because I think people would know you for songs like My Savior, My God, ever be, and to hear you talk about you started writing Monday through Saturday songs, so to speak. Journal songs. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, have you gone back to that at all and do you still write those types of songs? I do. And I think throughout the course of my 10 albums and a couple singles and whatnot in between, this would be an interesting study for me. It probably wouldn't be interesting to anybody else, but I'd be really curious to know what percentage I would classify as, I mean, you said Monday through Saturday songs as opposed to Sunday songs. I like that. What are the, what are the journalistic songs that are, I mean, journalistic like what I would write in my journal. Here's my journal. This is my prayer journal. I've kept a prayer journal since 1993. It always felt weird to, I've never had a dear diary journal not writing to myself. It's been like an ongoing conversation with God. And I might write down things that he knows, but like me today I did this and Daniel said this, my son, and then this happened and where this happened. And then the first half of every page, and I try to just do one page per entry, whenever I sit down to journal, I try to keep it limited to one page. Like let's say what I need to say. It's kind of like with a song, let's, can we keep it under five minutes, please? Maybe three and a half, preferably. If it takes you nine minutes to say something, maybe you're not saying it is accurately as you could. So it's a discipline to keep it down to one page. But the first half of each page might be reminding my future self what just happened. And then the second half might be more like, so God, I need your wisdom in this. And it's really just a prayer asking God for his insight and his help and what I'm feeling what I'm emotionally going through. And it's cool to look back and be like, oh man, I forgot this was happening. And God met me there, you know? Yeah. I mean, I just reached over and I grabbed my journal and I've told you this before, but in the last year, less than a year, maybe it has become such a daily like, they're close to daily lifeline for me. And you're one of the handful of people that encouraged me to start journaling. You probably remember that, but you started talking about it one day during probably one of our sessions or something. So I started journaling, dude, and it's, I used to hate it. I used to hate it because it just felt sort of like I was documenting something I'd rather just live than document it or whatever. But it's become something that when I don't do it, I feel it. Just a way to process. Yeah, it is, it's a way to process in real time. And I've also experienced enough reflection, retroactive visiting of former journals to know how beneficial that is and to be reminded of how God's provided in moments where, I mean, if I'm going to be honest about what's happening, it's going to come with some fear. And I'm saying things like, God, I don't know how, how are we going to make ends meet this month? God, I don't know that so and so has been sick and bad for this long. What's going on? Like, we're back in the hospital again, like all of this, you know, in the fear that might come out in the, in the pages, and I can look back and be like, man, God, God met us there. God, God delivered. That was, that was a tragic event. And yet God is still on his throne and maybe I couldn't feel it then, but I know it now. Or even more so, like maybe sometimes I'm very bold in my prayer as my God, please make this happen and it didn't happen. And I can look back later and be like, oh, I'm so glad that didn't happen. I was praying for it to happen, but God didn't answer because he knew better. He knew better. But it had it been answered the way I was praying. The outcome wouldn't have been as beautiful or as glorious as he knew it would be. So that it's a constant reminder to look back. That's good, man. Well, one thing I wanted to ask you about is something that you mentioned a while back and you were talking about the difference between this concept of calling and assignments. And I wanted to ask you more about that. What do you mean? Like to you? What's the difference between the two? It's just a word, but the distinction is dramatic. And I remember reading a book, I wish I could remember the title of it. I'm scanning my bookshelf behind the screen right here to see if it's on it. I'm not seeing it. But Fred Hartley, a pastor in the Christian missionary alliance, Fred Hartley III, I went to school with his son, Fred Hartley IV, but he wrote a book and I brought this topic up to some people who I know know him and who have worked with him like, oh, yeah, Fred loves to talk about the difference between calling and assignment, and let me take a step back. How many times have I said or heard someone else say, like, well, this is just, it's not my calling. Or my calling is to be a singer or my calling is to be a songwriter or my calling is to be an artist. And I, he differentiates it by saying, no, and I don't want to put words in his mouth. He says it better. And I don't want to misquote him or so I'll, I'll, I'll tell you what is found its way into my soul years later, I see calling as followers of Jesus for all of us to maybe be one and the same. We are called sons of God, I think a John 112 to all who did believe him to all who, to all who did receive him to all who believed in his name. He gave the right to be called the children of God, okay? So that's just, that's a, that's status. That's who we are. There's a, there's a calling to go and make disciples, right? Of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. That could be a calling to love our neighbor, to love God with all of our heart, soul, mind, and strength, and love our neighbors as ourself. This is, this is a calling, Jesus said, if you love me, you'll obey my commandments. You could say that's, that's a calling. What's the assignment might, might be how you do that in a given season. So loving your neighbor is going to potentially very, yeah, you could say, you know, people ask Jesus, well, who is my neighbor? This guy, that guy, and basically he tells a story that shows that everybody is our neighbor, but quite literally the people in my neighborhood. And when I change neighborhoods because I move across town or across the country, my assignment has changed. That's a real practical obvious example of that. A job is going to change from, from one season to another, your assignment can change. So I'm in an assignment season right now as an artist who writes songs, record songs, sing songs, goes out around the world and plays them and, and, and now we've got social media. That's, that's an assignment that even when I'm not in a certain given town, I can reach people across the planet through social media. That's part of my assignment. And that can change, you know, my, my assignment as a singer, songwriter would change if I stopped recording albums and stopped performing, it might change into something else. Let's say I've become a professor at a college and I teach music. Now my assignment has changed, but my calling could remain the same. Dude, you know what I love about that is I think there's going to be people that maybe struggle with even listening to a podcast called Christian Music Maker because maybe they're a Christian, but, and I think even as I've talked about this with folks, sometimes they're like, okay, well, not really interested in being a part of Christian music. And sometimes I have to be like, yes, I don't mean necessarily Christian music as in the genre or whatever, talking to Christians who make music, right? And so what I love about what you just said is I think a lot of times in the Christian and worship music world, there's this preoccupation with the idea of calling like I feel called to do this thing. And then sometimes people can spend a whole lifetime chasing an idea in their head about what that calling is supposed to look like. And so what I love about what you're saying is you could be a Christian who has an assignment to be a Christian who makes music for Christians primarily in the Christian music, quote, unquote industry or community, or you could be a Christian who makes music and you're never on a Christian music stage. You're on a music stage just as a whatever kind of artist that makes mainstream just general music. That's not for a Christian audience. And what you're saying has the same exact power for both. And I love that. I love that. It makes me wonder whether or not the word dream needs to be added into this equation of calling an assignment and dream. Let me clarify, we've got a calling to love God and love our neighbors and ourselves. Let's start with that in its simplest form. We can have a dream like I had a dream when I was 13, I would love to do this just because you have a dream. It would be dangerous to call that dream you're calling. And until it becomes a reality, you can't call it your assignment unless you're going to say, all right, I'm going to work my tail off to achieve this dream. You know, I mean, I've got I've got high school age kids that are working to achieve their dreams of what college, et cetera is going to look like and they may or may not achieve those dreams. And part of the maturing process as followers of Jesus is to trust that God's got a plan that will be that will be executed. Otherwise, I'm not sure he deserves the title God. It will be executed. And we can get into maybe on a different episode, we can get into all that good stuff. That's juicy. Right. But there's such peace. I mean, I've been singing for a long time in, I'm not skilled to understand what God has willed or what God has planned. I only know at his right hand, stands one who is my savior. And I take such comfort in that it doesn't get me off. hook from trying and from working. I think of the the parable of the wicked servant who buried the talent whenever the master was away. No one thought he was wicked until the master came back and said, "You wicked servant, you could have at least put it in the bank and give me some interest." Don't want to bury. We don't want to bury our talents. Just trusting that God has our best in mind. Not just his best, our best in mind. If you've raised kids, as we both have, we know there's seasons, and those seasons change as well, and they develop where they don't understand why they're not supposed to touch the stove. We do, they don't. They have to trust us. They don't understand why you shouldn't play in the street. They don't understand why you shouldn't take the car and drive out past midnight. They don't understand why you shouldn't speed. They don't, you know, like we do. And until they often learn the hard way, they don't. And so with that same analogy, our father, my goodness, I mean, Isaiah 55, God's ways are higher than our ways, his thoughts are higher than our thoughts. That's an understatement, right? Like his ways are so much higher, we can't even come close to comprehending. So when something doesn't happen and we shake our fists at the sky, why God, why would you allow this to happen? We don't understand. I'd like to believe that our glorified minds one day will. But it's all the trust and patience. And yeah, so pursue those dreams. But until you do, you've got an assignment in your lap right now, you've got something that God's giving you to do right now. So be faithful in that, right? It's been my experience that there's this interesting dance between, like you said, the calling for every believer, the dreams in my heart, are they my dreams or God's dreams? And then the assignment, like you said, being faithful where I am, and yet that dream, putting a seed of future assignments in front of me, like this vision. And then the new conversation there is how do I walk hand in hand with him in the process of figuring that out between this assignment, that possible assignment, and how I get from one to the other. I find it's just about being with him, you know, just being in his presence. It's easy, though, to have this whole narrative happening in my head that doesn't include him about that dream and about the future, you know. How has that been for you? That's an ongoing thing. It just happened an hour ago before you and I got on. I was walking around and I pace when I'm thinking. I'm just walking through. I mean, everybody's at work and at school, like at the whole house to myself. I'm just pacing through the house. And I'm just, I'm thinking about what we could talk about and what what the direction that I was pretty sure we were going to go. And I stopped myself and I realized, Aaron, you're flirting with rehearsing answers. This is not what I need right now. What I need to do is go up into my room, shut the door and get on my face and say, God, speak through me. God, prepare my heart. Like we, we just worked on a song authority. Second verse talks about it straight from Scripture. And the very end of Mark 1, it says that Jesus got up really early in the morning while it was still dark. And he, and he went away and he found a desolate place and there he prayed to his father. I recently, of the past couple of years, been, been maybe confronted as the right word, confronted with his notion that Jesus, who often said, I only do what the father tells me to do. I only say what the father tells me to say. And then you have these stories of him often going out and finding these desolate places where he's, I always say he leaves his cell phone at Peter's house and leaves and finds some quiet space to connect with his father, maybe because he was getting marching orders for the day. Right? Like what, what is it that you would have me do to, I mean, I'm not sure if your viewers are into chosen people seem to love it or hate it. I love it. And I, one of my favorite things is is how Jesus will often like find himself in a situation where either like he realizes, oh, this is, this is the encounter that I knew was coming today. I do believe that he was in constant communication with his father. And sometimes very specifically. So there's the, there's the walking through the day and just like the shooting out the prayer, God, give me wisdom. But then there's, there's the deeper times where I'm going to set a time and a place that I'm not going to break. Have you heard the story of when Billy Graham received a phone call at his house from a president? I think it might have been Reagan. I can't remember who it was. But his wife Ruth answered the phone and it was probably not the president on the line. It's probably the president's assistant. Like, you know, hey, you know, we have the president of the United States on the phone from Mr. Billy Graham. And Ruth answered the phone and said, I'm sorry, he's not available right now. And the assistant said, I'm sorry, I'm not sure if you understood. This is the president of the United States on the phone for Billy Graham. And Ruth was like, I'm not sure you understand. Billy is praying to the king of the universe and he's not available right now. Like, that's always stuck with me. There's, there's something about great ending the time. And my goodness, if we can't even protect our time with the Lord from our Instagram stream, what's going to happen when the president of the United States calls? We're going to we're going to say, thank you, God, drop everything we're doing and take the phone call. But, but Billy knew better. He protected his time. And one of, he says that one of his regrets in life as he aged was that he didn't spend more time in the word and in prayer. Billy Graham said that. If that's the case, that's the case for all of us. Yeah, man, desolate places. Is that what you said? Yeah, that's a, that's a translation. I couldn't tell you which one it is, but it's like, what would be another translation? It's, it's all over the Gospels, a quiet place or a solitary place. It's basically like where there are no distractions, desolate place. This is a little bit artsy and whatever, but I feel like desolate could be a great metaphor where we could choose it, you know, we think of the way you're using it, like getting away to be with him. But then there's times and seasons where we don't choose it and we find ourselves in a desolate place. It can be a beautiful place or it can be a dry, lonely, hard, depressing place. And it's funny. I think we find ourselves in both all throughout our lives. Mark chapter one. I mean, the very, oh, here we go. Lonely spot is another one. This is the complete Jewish Bible and CJBM looking at lonely spot. Very early in the morning, while it was still dark, Yeshua got up, left one away to a lonely spot and stayed there praying. You know, you mentioned dry, dry and like a desolate, a dry and lonely place. Yeah, lonely spot. There was, there's a value in that. I mean, I, I'll say this, like, when I think of desolate, it carries a negative connotation to me as I think of like, oh, you know, what would the, the post apocalyptic scene in some movie would be like, oh, it's just desolate. Or, you know, some like the desert or planes, but like in the Jewish culture, there was such a, there was such a high view of intentionally finding literally desert wilderness places. And the scenes just lived in the desert. They built their little commune because they believed it was so important. As modeled throughout the Bible, it's, you know, Abraham and Moses and all of Israel and David and John the Baptist and Jesus. These are, these are people who were are documented as like intentionally going into the wilderness for seasons to say, I'm going to go where there's nothing. The extreme lack of distraction for the purpose, not of losing weight, not of getting a tan, but for connecting with the king of the universe. Think of times in my life, I mean, back in 2016, I went through a time when I was leading worship at this multi-site church, we had five services a weekend just at the campus I was at. And during that season, yeah, it's a lot. During that season, I kind of went through a desolate wilderness in my life. And it was hard. It was tough. It took me, it took me a while, months to get through it and figure out how overworking and a lot of other things. And I think somebody listening is tracking with us in terms of, oh, yeah, I can make time for myself. And we, you know, when you grew up in the church or whatever, we're used to the idea of quiet time, devotional time, study time, pursuing the Lord, like we even talked about journaling and prayer and all that, our devotional life. Sure. And then there's times when we don't choose these seasons. It's funny though, I look back and I found the Lord in a way that I never would have if I didn't go through that. In fact, at the risk of oversharing, I'll just mention I felt like I was becoming almost like an agnostic or an atheist. I was struggling with my faith at a very deep level. And I remember getting up one morning to lead worship all day on a Sunday and looking at myself in the mirror and thinking, you're a fraud. You're about to go up on a platform and do what you're paid to do what you know how to do. Lead people to a throne you don't even know if you believe exists. And then I felt just this awful tension. So I had to just, you know, I had to, like thank God, I had a great mentor who was just kind of shepherding me through that. Rich, if you're listening, I love you, dude, I appreciate you so much for that time. But somebody listening is going through that right now. And I just want to knowing you and you've been doing this for, you know, at least a couple decades now. Have you been through seasons like that? And what does it look like for you? And what's helped you stay mentally and emotionally healthy through the highs and lows of just life in general, but ministry and career and traveling all the time and all that stuff. Yeah, man. Thanks for sharing that. I'm glad you did share that because I think that that is going to resonate with a lot of people and it resonates with me absolutely have I walked through those those seasons of of desolation that were that were not the good desolate places. I haven't done this recently but I've gone into seasons where I want to take 40 days off of social media. I'm going to basically put myself through a fast of sorts. This is a reminder God I want you more I want you more how often do I find myself saying that God I want you more I want you unless I cut something out. It's just a reminder to me to say how bad do you want God how bad do you want the wisdom how badly do you want his spirit do you want chocolate more there's that there's those moments where you choose desolation then there's those moments where you just choose to walk away from God and the result is a desolate spirit you know a broken spirit. This past week I was leading I wasn't leading worship was a concert in out of fundraiser in Los Angeles but I got there early got in the night before and so early the next morning I was having breakfast with the whole group. And I popped in for a little bit of the morning session and there was a worship leader leading and played a couple songs that I was familiar with and played a couple songs that I wasn't familiar with and he. There was a line and some of you listen you might know this but one of the lines had something to do with like it was kind of poetically describing the resurrection and then it said the line like he took a breath and everything changed. And I'm singing this and I was actually I wasn't singing I was just listening because I didn't know the song so I'm looking at the words in the screen the music sounded incredible and I'm like man he came back to life and everything changed and I felt like a fraud in that moment. I felt like man not everything changed I still resonate with Paul like what a wretched man I am who will save me from this body of death. The things I want to do I don't think I don't want to do I do what in the world and I had this Isaiah six moment thinking about this is the here I am send me but before the here I am moment you know Isaiah has this vision where he all the sudden sees himself before the king. And he's like his immediate response is woe is me which basically means I'm going to die like woe is me I'm a man of unclean lips. I don't know from a people of unclean lips and I've seen the king I don't think he had a foul mouth I think in comparison to the god of creation the holy one he realized how by comparison his mouth is just filthy right. Compared to holiness and yet God cleansed him and then God called him which is interesting when you think that God called him into this vision first he had a reckon he had a realization Isaiah had a realization of his unworthiness God cleansed him with the coal and the lips of the unworthiness and then he called him who will go for us whom shall I send and that's that's when the here I am moment happens I felt like in that moment the spirit kind of whispered to my spirit. Your status changed you know everything changed but I haven't changed God forgive me woe is me I haven't changed is that your status is changed you're now you're a child of God you're my son right used to be a sinner now you're a saint used to be an outsider now you're an insider used to be a slave now you're a son that's changed everything's changed everything's changed. It's such love and acceptance in spite of my unworthiness and I think how many times have we to get back to what you're saying I mean how many times do I have to take the stage knowing that I'm a man of unclean lips from a people of unclean lips. It's thing and going through seasons of I don't know desolation in that sense and if so like what's an example of that and how do you get through that typically. Well the thing about writing and the thing about creation creativity at all is that it doesn't it doesn't at least for me it doesn't come on command so whenever I finish a song or even like I mean I'm working on something right now where I've got a chorus that I'm pretty jazzed about like this is good but I zero clue where a verse could be or what it could be so there's that sense of the blank canvas so just because I have a chorus that I'm excited about like this might be it. So thank goodness for collaboration I might sit down with somebody like you could help me with this but there's always that fear like the imposter syndrome like you were saying earlier like I don't belong here this this is not they're going to find out that I've been undeservedly on stage for 20 years of plus you know since I was for I shouldn't be doing this like and I because I we all have our insecurities. So you still have imposter syndrome now. Oh yeah even more so think because I mean take it back 20 years ago when I just started in the public eye at least which was what odd thing like I said I've been singing on stage since I was for. This is the guy who has no vibrato everyone who's listening to this podcast probably knows but it's the little wiggle that that it's a really odd thing in music to me because I don't have it but I do find it to be very pleasant when people have a vibrato if it's too fast if it's too fast. If it's too slow that might be a different opinion but it's that little wiggle that I don't even know why it happens that when it's the right speed we find it to be very pleasant and we might not even know why but we say things like that person has a great voice well I don't have that you know so that's something that's always been a point of insecurity for me. But year number one 2005 when I released my first album there's always that chance that I'm going to be a you know just around for one year like I remember Aaron but I've been doing this for 20 years so there's a sense of like wow wow if I get if I get found out what's that even mean it's it's based on nothing it's just based on on object fear which I say does not come from the Lord there's good fear like fearing the Lord and saying kind of like Isaiah. He feared the Lord he wasn't like what's up what's up dog he was like woe is me I'm a man of unclean lips and I've seen the King that's fear that's respect that's healthy. And then there's just fear that doesn't fit that category and I believe that comes from the enemy he wants to stymie us he knows I heard a pasture one time given example of the fishers of men example that Jesus gave that Satan knows that if we have been caught by Jesus we're in his net that we're his and as you know what I'm doing. And as Jesus says in John 10 no one can snatch us away from the father like in his grasp where where his but if we as fish can be put in the freezer Satan can put us in the freezer and take us out of the game. Then his mission is accomplished and I often think like man I feel like I've been in the freezer God forgive me give me out of the freezer Rich Mullens talks about it's better to be loved by God than to be used by God because you know Pontius pilot was used the Roman centurion was used Herod was used Judas was used it's it's it's a good thing to be loved by God if we can be content there. Dude I love the reference to the rich that's all I did in 2019 my wife and I were had every reason to stay in in California speaking of assignment versus calling we felt this possible assignment shift to Nashville and so we started praying we were asking mentors like are we stupid talk us out of this and all of a sudden God started bringing all these things into our lives that had to do with Nashville like without us trying and one of them was one day. And one of them was one day we stumbled across the rag and muffin movie it's just an Amazon probably still in the back closets of Amazon somewhere yes and it was incredible looks something about it just you know just set our hearts on fire like man we so resonate with his ministry oriented reason for doing music. He had this John the Baptist spirit about him that was just kind of like I am this is this is me I'm going to be me but it's not in the selfish sense like I feel like he existed for the glory of God in my opinion like he wanted to write songs for the glory of God and but he the dude wore t shirts and grew his hair long and was barefoot and had radio jeans he didn't care like he didn't care like he was the epitome of you probably a locust in his spare time and wild honey and camel hair like John the Baptist like he just didn't he didn't fit the mold and that's what you're wearing wearing a t shirt and you have a long hair are you wearing shoes are you barefoot I'm barefoot I'm about to fall off my chair see there's a little bit of mollons on myself I do drive a Jeep as well I don't I don't play the dulcimer though so that's well you're one of the artists that I like that that one of your songs your next song could have dulcimer dulcimer I put dulcimer on on the the Psalms album Psalm 23's got a little Rich Mullins nod with some dulcimer at the beginning that record is so good if you're listening to this and you haven't heard that album it's just good it's just good it's awesome and I couldn't say that I didn't I wasn't part of writing or producing any of it I was saying if his tree that one was incredible as well you made the you made the cover of that one that beautiful cover you did that's right you did I actually met a guy this past week he was on that worship team that was that was in that story I was just telling he's like hey so I forget how he worded this it was kind of funny he said I just he said this past this past good Friday I performed I played your Isaiah 53 I'm like I've never met anybody who actually played that song and told me about it it. He said it was it was pretty cool, man, it gives it it's the first day. Aaron Schoost's song I ever heard, I played it. And then he said, then I heard that you were coming this week, 'cause I got to tell him that I played as a 53. So, and that was just a song. Talk about like a holy discontent. I just, I just knew in the back of my heart, I need to write a song that's straight from Isaiah 53. And I knew, I mean, I wasn't random. Like, I knew what it was. I knew that it was the, you know, he was wounded because of our sins, that the suffering servant song. But I didn't know what it was gonna sound like. I didn't know, I just, I didn't know I didn't have a melody. I just knew that, and it kind of nagged on my heart for about a month until I finally came into this room and shut the door and just started playing through different chords and melodies and progressions. It's so gorgeous, dude. So gorgeous. And Nathan, Knuckles, did he produce it? The Knuckles, yeah. And there was, we got the Duke player from Israel and Shy Soul is a singer who sang on it. Just, she came up with some harmonies that Nathan was like, yeah, I never would have thought to recommend those harmonies to her, but she, they sound right. Like she made it sound right. That about to play cello. And so it's a gorgeous, gorgeous song. Yeah, man, hauntingly beautiful. Bro, before we moved on from what you were sharing about the imposter syndrome, somebody's listening to this and they feel like maybe it's something like you about the vibrato thing. But they're just like, well, kind of like Moses God, but I don't talk good or whatever. And it's a good example. They have this fire in them almost like, and I've felt this in my life before when it's like the thing that I feel like I can't get away from. It's in front of me whether I choose it or not almost. And this podcast has felt like that, you know, where it's like, if I get to my deathbed and I haven't done this yet, I'll be so gripped, you know. Right, yeah. That sort of thing. And so somebody out there feels that way as a artist or as a songwriter. How would you mentor them? How would you speak to them? There is something to be said for developing your craft. And I think it's hugely important. So we have our limitations. And I always wanted to be an electric guitar player who could shred. And either I didn't try hard enough or take the right lessons or have the right teacher, but I cannot shred, not even close. I can't, I mean, if I can play acoustic guitar consistently and keep my strings in tune and maybe learn an interesting little voicing with my left hand every once in a while, then that's a success. I don't know. We have our limitations, but there is something to be said for strengthening our weaknesses, you could say. So we have the ability to take vocal lessons. We have our ability to the songwriter study. Like I have a notebook somewhere on here where I actually went through one year and wrote out chord charts for like, I don't know, maybe 20 Beatles songs. I would just hear a song. They're like, that's an interesting song. And I would listen to it and I would try to figure out that like I could have looked it up online, but that's not doing the work. So there's something to be said about doing the work. And I'm learning now these chord progression ideas from studying others, whether they're masters or not, studying songs that I admire and be like, what in the world is this? Oh, that's a one to a minor four. Oh, this is a one to a flat six. Oh, this is interesting. They change keys in the second section. How did they change keys and then still come back? I don't know, it's a mystery. Let's figure it out, let's learn. So there's something about embracing what you're, the opposite end of that spectrum is like, this is like God made you how he made you. So my voice is going to sound like it sounds, but I can listen back to it. There was a season in my earlier recordings where I would notice that I was singing in the back of my throat. So it would become a swallowed and darker back there when I would sing. I'm being extreme right now, hopefully. But it was darker. And it took a producer Ed Cash, who recognized it. And he said, hey man, can you sing a little forward? I was a vocal major in college. I actually knew with that man, I wanted to resonate it in the front of my, I wanted to feel the buzz in my nose as opposed to the back of my throat. So I started thinking about how it could be more bright and bring it forward and not let it resonate in the back of my voice. He was like, dude, that's so much better. And I added that to my list of things. Okay, I need to do that for now on. Nathan Knuckles always talked about like, hey, when you sing, you want to, you want to kind of, almost like, especially in the first verse, you want to like whisper, like you're telling a story. So when you're singing, whatever the lyric is, don't just come out like this, start like this and enunciate, let me hear those consonances. And like you're excited, like you're holding, so he's giving me notes like that. And I try to add it to my list of things to remember. So you have to have an open spirit. I've told you this before and you do a great job with it, Sam. Every time I find myself in a room with a new producer, I'm like, rake me over the coals, man. When I'm singing this, I'm laying this vocal down, I want to sound as great as I could possibly sound. And then I'm hoping that in post, you make me sound even, even better, but you have to have a teachable spirit, a teachable spirit to learn, hone your craft. But also know that like, I am not going to sound like Chris Tomman, I am not going to sound like David Crowder. I have to sound like me. - I wonder if there's something to be said for just doing it scared, not loving your voice yet. Because I mean, on one hand, I don't want to live in a universe where Aaron Shoes became a shredder. I actually happen to be a huge fan of your non-vibrato voice, which you definitely do vibrato when you're not trying, which is awesome, I love it. But somebody out there just is comparing themselves to, you know, I don't know, Noah Con or Del or you name it, and just feeling like, I guess I can't do the thing that I feel called do because I'm not that, you know, and what would you say to that person? - The world needs your voice, you know? And sometimes it takes hearing somebody who does remind you of you to give you permission to know like, I can do it. Talk about the shredding thing. I grew up in the 80s where everybody that I listened to, the hair bands and the rock and roll, they were singing in the stratosphere. They were singing an octave higher than anything I could do. So I took a moment, I'm not sure what it was exactly, it might have been like Nirvana. The first time I heard smells like teen spirit, I'm like, oh, I could sing in that range, you know? It's low, how is this guy singing low? How is this cool? 'Cause everything I knew of low was either Neil Diamond or Barry White or like the old stuff, but like now in the 80s, I guess you have to sing high. And that concept right there, you have to sing like this, you have to sing like that is stifling and stymying. So yeah, do what you do scared, absolutely. Songwriting, one of the first songs I wrote, no, the first song I wrote on my first album was just a 17 second prayer, give me words to speak. Don't let my spirit sleep, I can't think of anything worth saying. End of track, that was it. And because I had spent a whole year trying to write songs for the church like we talked about earlier, trying to write songs that could be vertical worship songs of Sunday songs, I couldn't think of anything worth saying. So one day I prayed that. It's like, God, give me words to speak. I can't think of anything worth saying. And one of those moments, one of those few moments in my life where I felt again, like the spirit of God whispered to my spirit, then write about that. Write from your insecurities, write from your fears, do it. And so I'm like, okay, then let's start here. Give me words to speak. And don't let my spirit sleep because that's a nice one. That wasn't part of my prayer. And then it eventually became a song in the second album that I completed. But I had to step into the fear. And I'm telling you, man, I'm not saying this is an equation that will always work, but it's been my experience. It was my experience that once I stepped into the fear the songs began to flow. - Wow. I think of a song like My Savior, My God. What was that experience writing that? - That came from an old hymn. I had a purpose. I had a sphere of influence. I had an audience. The purpose was we need to do some hymns at this Presbyterian church, where there's a high value on hymns. And we started digging through hymnoles for gems. It's digging for lyrics that no one sings for reasons we don't know, because the melody is antiquated, because it never got popular. It wasn't as cool as great as I faithfulness, whatever. But there's gotta be some buried treasure that we can find. And then once we find it, we'll just put a new melody on top of it and go for it. And we'll sing these great theological truths in church on Sunday. And I found this title that caught my mind. I'm not skilled to understand like what a strange title. And then I started reading as I've already quoted it. And I was going through a season of questioning theology and young 20s, mid 20s, like at this Presbyterian, I knew I wasn't Ray's Presbyterian, and there were just some things that were said that I'm thinking God would never do that. And when I brought it up to people, not in a slanderous way, but like why are we saying that God would do this? And like, well, if you read here in the book of whatever, it says that God absolutely did that and took credit for it, couldn't it say gracious? And that's why when I say my theology was being challenged, it was stuff like that. Like I was putting God in a box that apparently he didn't fit in. And so it was comforting to say I'm not skilled to understand. But to go back to the songwriting angle of your question, like my goal there was to just make it as simple as possible. Certainly not as brilliance as possible. Let's make this melody so accessible that people are going to get this in the first try. That was my goal. And we say, saying the verses of that song for a year and a half at our church before I wrote it at the chorus, sitting at a red light in the way home like that we need because if you think of it like melodically it's in the key of D it just kind of stays really low in the vocal range at least for guys you know I'm not skilled to understand that he would leave his place on high the word high was actually the highest note in the whole song I never thought of that that and then it just kind of like you know settled back down again I wish we could sing something that was just like an aesthetic and fist pumping and repeating and simple and something like that would be cool and so you know I could get into that as I was sitting at this red light realizing that I was doing my savior lives my savior loves and then I wrote my god he was my god he is I'm like oh I could get lives and loves and flip him around and it'll rhyme with was and is not to be cool and the light turn green like this is got to work we got him exactly so it was a bit of a Frankenstein moment like let's get this old him with a new melody we've been singing for a year and a half let's see if I can put this put this chorus in it there's no bridge to the song and just and let's see if it works let's find a common key in a common tempo and see if we can make it work and so that was a talk about a craft I mean that's not the normal way to write a song over the course of a year and a half and I think that's the I think that's the lesson when people ask me like hey I really want to be a singer can you tell me what I should do how should I do this I'm like man it's different for everybody but God's giving you a sphere of influence right now you've got to cater to it you've got to tend to it you got to feed your sheep I love that man and not dream about what you'd like to do in the future you've you've got something right now that you've got to be faithful to take care of so instead of shepherding the Madison Square Garden in your head right upper the fifty or five hundred or five thousand right in front of you four five or five yeah yeah totally totally which sometimes it's just our wife and kids or man I tell you what if if we're if we're skipping that step then we're already off to a bad start you know maybe is worship leaders in general or maybe even more so as dudes in specific it's it's it's so easy and tempting to put all of our chips into our career and what we do and and forsake the family and and I and I don't just mean quality time quantity time like man if if the church is guilty of of one thing it can really tap its its employees of time away from family and and just and personal time and I mean between all the hours in in the day and rehearsals at night and in five services on the weekend like you did there's little time for anything else and family suffer because of that we've got to keep our you know we've got to put our foot down at some point in time say no I've got I've got for me it was it was ER this is before even DVR's existed ER was on TV on Thursday nights and like men if rehearsal went long I missed quality time with my wife watching ER on Thursday nights you know it wasn't streaming it was on and then it was over like I got to make it home that's hilarious and so that was I mean that was a real practical way to say no we've got it we got to finish this we got to finish this we got a technique because it's not about ER I didn't care about the plot it was about quality time with my family yeah that takes me back man ER for us when we were first married it was house doctor house oh yeah that's great show all these medical dramas I know right I like us I think a lot of people that have been in the worship leader worship staff context gets what you're saying but how does that family work life balance career balance thing happen when you're a recording artist on tour hundreds of days a year and live in the bus life how have you navigated that outside the walls of the church I forget what year it was 2012 maybe where I did a 28 day run in a row it was a bus it was a bus run it was a west coast run where you kind of start and you know I think we flew to Texas caught the bus and went out through Arizona it all sounds exciting when it's in the future and then when it's happening you're like okay like grateful for my job grateful for the ministry opportunity Lord do some do some miracles tonight touch some hearts and then let's do the same thing again tomorrow and and yeah every once in a while you get to see a cactus and then everyone saw you see a palm tree and I would say dressing rooms and parking lots that's pretty much what we see on the road and 28 days was was rough I think there was one day off in an Oregon where I or like a three day run where I could have gone home but I think I had my band with me and my band they weren't going to go home because of finances and I think I felt bad it's kind of like a Uriah moment like I'm not going to go home when my men are sleeping in the field so that was my reason to stay out but like I had little kids and at the end of 28 days it was so hard we made a policy of no more than 12 days and if something comes up after 12 days then I will stare out on my wife and I will sit down and have a conversation about whether or not we should do this and and had the opportunity really soon at a really great opportunity pop up on my calendar on day 13 we based on just just a principle of the first time that this came up we just we declined it was a good opportunity and oh my goodness what could have what could have come the doors that could have flown open had I said yes to this opportunity it doesn't matter we have to trust God that the right things are going to happen and maybe the absolute right thing to do that day was to go home and hug my kids and hug my wife that's huge man so I think you have to make those you have to make those policies and then you have to stick to them that's on that's on the grand scale of when it comes to the road and I mean I've got said now that I've said that if you if people wanted to creep on my upcoming calendar you'll see that this coming October I've got a I've got a long stretch that that goes past the 12 days and we discussed it we we knew this was going to be the case and we talked about what should I say no to this should I say yes to this and it's it's my wife it's never I'll tell you this much it's never me telling my wife I need to do this you need to you need to let me do this it's always the other way around it's my wife saying you need to say yes to this we're going to be okay we're going to be okay you need to say yes to this this is important you need to do it or it's her saying no no no come home good man I mean there's an undertone of what I hear you saying and it's this concept of Sabbath and it's interesting I feel like maybe five six years ago there was this book by John Mark Comer called the ruthless elimination of hurry that a lot of people have yeah talked about and I read it and I feel like it was really hopeful to our family and but there's also and I don't know if you've talked much about this I think you have and a lot of people who know you and and keep up with you would know that you know that you've been a student of messianic Jewish tradition where Judaism and Christianity kind of merge and so with that perspective and anything you want to comment on in that regards great but with that perspective what is Sabbath meant for you and your family once it Israel for the first time in 2016 it was a quick little shotgun four and a half day red carpet experience it was fast but I came back knowing like I mean listen how I've had a Bible in my possessions or two since I was a kid went to Bible school like I know the maps in the back but to walk to walk in those places it's like if you grew up with a I don't know picket state a map of Florida on your on your wall and then the first day you go as an adult you're like oh my goodness there is a big lake in the middle of the bottom just like the map I'm looking at it's crazy Orlando isn't there there really is a Disney World here oh my goodness there is Cape Canaveral it's actually here even more so with walking through Israel like the places that are on the map they're actually there and when you read the stories that Jesus went here and went there and it's actually there you know Mount Carmel where Elijah it's actually there you can stand up there it's it's crazy but I came back like with with the bug knowing that I wanted to go back but also knowing that I didn't want to be a perpetual tourist I wanted it to be deeper I wanted it to be about the people so I started developing relationships and somebody outside that that growing circle of friendships in Israel bought me a book my first year and and it was a it was called Mudhouse Sabbath if anybody wants to look it up short little maybe a hundred pages tiny little tiny little book written by a growing Laura winner who was raised Jewish but found herself in a very Christian environment in Virginia and going to church with Christians and just a regular evangelical Protestant church and loving it but noting that there were a lot of things in practice in in Jewish tradition that the Christian church would really benefit from if they observed if they incorporated it into their normal rhythms and that's what this little book was about just a couple of those rhythms and the first chapter was Sabbath so I got this as a Christmas gift so I sat down on my chair on December 27th whatever and just you know in this restful feeling of Christmas break and I cracked this book open and that I wish I had it right here I'd read to the first page she actually quotes a friend of hers that talks about observing the Sabbath and the feeling the rush and the race of Friday afternoon to beat the sunset and like hurrying to the market to grab the vegetables and to come home and and sweep the floors and clear off the table and grab a quick shower and then she describes after all the hurry and the hustle and bustle she'd have a little flower placed in the middle of the dining room table and the sun would get low enough that it would come in through the the blinds and make the shadows over that flower and all and that was her signal and her heart to know to exhale because rest had finally come, because God had given a command. It's the fourth commandment to observe the Sabbath and to keep it holy and it comes with a blessing. And I just, I felt it. I felt it. I'm like, I don't know what this is, but I want it. I want it. And I remember going to Israel, we actually landed on Saturday and talk about a country that was asleep. I mean, everyone was just resting. Like, nothing was open. Everyone was just chilling. And then the next day, it's like the horns started honking and the phone started ringing all at once. Like in a movie. And I just, it's a discipline that we've incorporated into our lives. And it's interesting because like, the verses I just opened up to one in Isaiah 56, where happy is the person who does this. Anyone who grasps it firmly, talking about observing justice and doing what is right. Anyone who keeps Sabbath and does not profane it, keeps himself from doing evil. And you just skipped down a couple of verses. It talks about the foreign or God talking here. The foreigners who joined themselves to the Lord who served him, who loved the name of the Lord, to be his workers who keep the Sabbath and not profane it. Blessed, you know, happy are they. God told Adam to rest on the seventh day. Adam wasn't Jewish. You know, the Jews came along 2,000 years later with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. And then you have to get onto, you know, with Moses. But you know, it was a command over 2,000 years later, but from Genesis chapter one, some would say it's chapter two verse one, but on some accounts it's the last verse of chapter one. God's saying, you know, he rested on the seventh day and this was a pattern that he was starting. And it wasn't like Adam had the choice to be like, oh, excuse me, would you be okay if I observed Thursday? You know, so there's something about resting and God forces upon our bodies, rest the need for rest every single day. It's called sleep. You know, we have to have these rhythms of rest. And God gave us the gift of resting once a week. So to the best of our ability in closing, my family has enjoyed, thoroughly enjoyed Friday night sundown, to Saturday night sundown, to the best of our ability and not working. Not doing anything, it's saying, God, we trust you with our future. We trust you with our provision. We trust you with our time. We're gonna take a break. We're gonna rest. You guys do it right, man. I've interacted with you multiple times where it's like Friday, getting towards close in time right before, before sunset. And it's, I love the prep. And it just seems like you guys enjoy relationship and food and celebration and rest, yeah. Even if, listen, we don't talk about fasting. Don't let your right hand left hand, the whole giving and fasting, whatever. Isn't that a song? We don't talk about Bruno. We don't talk about fasting. But when we do fast, we break fast on Shabbat. It's a celebration and that is a Jewish tradition. So that's not a biblical mandate, but sitting at the feet of Jewish people, especially those who follow Jesus as the Messiah. I'll leave you with this. So I could talk about Shabbat for hours. We talk about being Christians following Jesus and following not only what Jesus said to do, but what Jesus did and what Jesus practiced. And Jesus kept the Sabbath. Jesus was Jewish. I'll go so far as to say, Jesus is Jewish. So my being a Christian means that I have a Jewish rabbi. And that opens doors and that opens ideas. Yeah, it does. Interesting. That we're currently walking through. Dude, that's so good, man. I know for us, we've, I mentioned that John Mark Comer book and there was another book that what I was still, you know, before I was full-time as a producer and songwriter and back when I was leading worship at a church, a pastor gave me a book by a guy named Pete Scazaro. I think that's how you say his name. Pete Scazaro or Pete Scazaro. Yeah, it's called the emotionally healthy leader. And there was a whole section on that about the concept of Sabbath biblically. And this was before I really had interacted with any of the things. I mean, being friends with you, we've learned a lot. And I mean, you gave us the book by Don Pinto. And you, actually my wife has a Jewish study Bible, mainly because of a conversation you guys had. Yes, yes. But even before all that, Pete's book was where first kind of, I don't know what it is. It was after that burnout time I mentioned where it was kind of like just an oasis in the desert. So what I needed to hear was like, I have permission to just shut my phone off one day a week and just enjoy my family and rest and relax and recharge. I would say guilt for us, guilt free permission because God endorses this so heavily, right? Yeah, it struck me as more of a gift than a command. Totally, yeah, absolutely. So we started doing a version of it. And it's not as colorful and amazing as you guys do it. For us, it's kind of it's a lot more informal. And not long after that, someone gave me the John Mark Comer book and that whole book is about that basically. So we just started awkwardly falling into it and it's become a lifeline every single week. Yeah, I would say you do it well. You do it well. I think you absolutely, in my opinion, you guys absolutely execute the part of the Sabbath. You know, just it's almost like a tie that's a percentage to say, okay, one day a week, I'm not working. Well said. Yeah. So yes, it's supposed to rejuvenate you. I mean, I don't have, I think I can speak for my family. This doesn't come up. This sentence anymore, I need a vacation. Like we feel rest that we've got a day. I mean, I'm always thinking today's Wednesday, we got a couple more days until the end of the week. Vacation. Vacation, one day vacation at home. I got special PJs that I pull out just for Shabbat. We do grab onto some of the traditions that exist in the Jewish world, but I believe it's a principle that God endorses. Mm. Yeah. I mean, even just from a, you know, from a non-traditional standpoint, just practically and creatively, you know, we've all read that creativity comes from the margins in our lives and I've found that to be true. I don't think that especially from what I learned about myself after that 2016 season of burnout, I would, I think I would just be a different person doing different things than I do if we didn't have that. My kids look forward to it. In fact, they hold us to it. If there's ever any time when we're just kind of, you know, it's only happened a few times, but just I just have to do this one thing or even housework and that kind of stuff. Or even conversations. What we find that the biggest temptation is to have the stressful planning problem solving conversations during Shabbat and what, what talk about, to me, it's such a huge active worship to say, God, I have got to figure this out. But today, I'm going to place this in your hands and I'm going to rest in your sovereign control and your good will and your love for me. And I'm going to rest and we're not going to talk about this. We're not going to talk about how this needs to get figured out. We're going to, we're going to bench it until sunset tomorrow night and then we'll tackle it and then we'll figure out what needs and then we'll book the flight, then we'll cancel the flight, then we'll whatever. But in the meanwhile, God, I'm giving this to you. To me, that is such a, that's, that's an active worship. Unlike other things that, I'll say it's way deeper than me singing a song with words that somebody else wrote. To me, that's, that's brass tax right there. Like, I am, I'm giving this to you. - Yeah, man, I mean, what we first started talking about this, you connected it to provision and, you know, his provision and there's a trust thing there. There's a trust thing, like, do we really believe that? It doesn't seem like it's that hard, but those of us, especially in the entrepreneur space or single-income family space or, you know, when you're having to get up and work and hustle or you don't eat, it's easy to get into that mindset of, there's always more to do. - Right, and if that mindset can trickle into the other six days of the week, when you are working, when it is time to work, but I mean, you get a chance to practice that acquiescence every Saturday to say, I'm giving it to you. So now, when Tuesday rolls around and you, and you start to feel that pressure, that stress, weigh in on you, how is this gonna work? How is this gonna, how are we gonna pay, how the bills? How is this gonna, you remember, oh yeah, a couple of days ago, remember when I just gave it all over to the Lord, and I said, I'm gonna be at peace with this? Well, today I do need to work, but I still, I'm still given this to you. This is still in your hands. I still acknowledge you as provider, which that changes the perspective. I was able to change my thinking, which is actual definition of repent, to repent, to repents, rethink. Change my thinking about the idea, like when I work, it's not because I'm earning money, I'm earning provision, I'm not creating income, the Lord is my provider, and when I work, I'm serving the king, I'm executing my assignment within my calling, like I'm doing that, and then the Lord provides. So, you know, it's the question of, I'm not, wording this as well as I'd like to. But what leads to what? The Lord provides and he's going to provide for everything. Jesus talks about this sermon on the Mount. Look at the flowers of the field. Look at the birds of the year. Do they sow? Do they reap? Do they spend? God takes care of them. How much more important are you? So when I do work, when I write songs, whenever I post, whenever I'm doing what needs to be done, whenever I'm typing in lyrics and sending them off and I'm doing the actual measurable work, I'm not creating income. I'm not earning. And this is just a mental thing that helps me function. It gets the Lord who provides. Dude, that's so good. Man, we've covered a lot of ground. This has been great. I have one more question for you before we sign off and I'll let you get back to your day. If you could mentor your younger self, say your 18-year-old self or even your 30-year-old self, what would you say? Oh, man. I think it's that it's everything I hoped would be true when I was 18 and 30. I mean, it's interesting because those are two pivotal moments where there's a transition period and things were changing and the future was unclear. And I can look back now and say, you might have even believed that the future was wrong. It might have seemed that the future as it was going to unfold would be unfortunate and that you were going to have to settle. But I'm looking back now and saying this is exactly, this is exactly where God wanted you. And even when things appeared to be really, really unfortunate, I can tell you now that it might not be what you wanted it to look like. But it's exactly, it's exactly where God wanted you to be. And that's exactly where you want to be. So I think it's faith. You know, I think that's, I think it just boils down to faith. Trust, man, trust in the Hebrew that the word for faith and trust is one and the same. So I always made fun of Hollywood for saying things like have faith. I just got to have faith, man, have faith. I was yelled at TV screen to have faith in what? Have faith, you know, trusting that God's will is perfect. Was it the 18-year-old or the 30-year-old that thought you might be a shredder, a guitar player? 18-year-old for sure. But that was after five years of failed guitar lessons. I think I knew by then it wouldn't get to happen. But I mean, I walked into so many seasons of the unknown where I was being called to the plate to use a baseball term. Like, and I'm like, no, no, no, I can't, I can't hit. I really can't. This is not what I do. And like, well, we need, we need you to pinch it right now. We need you. And we think you can do it. Come on, man, we believe in you. And I'm like, this is not what I do. I play ping pong. Like, I'm in the wrong sport. This is not right. And I would step into a new season of doing a thing like, like leading worship because there was a need. And someone pointed the finger at me and said, we need you to do this. And I'm like, you got the wrong guy. Talk about another Moses moment. Like, not what I do. I'm a piano minor. I play classical music. Like, yeah, we think it is. And we have a need. And you can do it. And I step into a fear and trembling. And it becomes my new reality, my new assignment for a season. And then there's a new thing that that feels frightening. And I can, I can point to the first time I decided to write a song about God's promises to the Jewish people that I'm like, this is outside of my wheelhouse right here. Like, this is not what I write about. But with fear and trembling, I wrote it and I released it. And it's opened up doors of ministry opportunity that I couldn't have fathomed. Yeah. Was that Zion? Yeah, Zion. I would say Zion. I think it's my sloppy Pittsburgh. In Hebrew, it's C-On. I remember when I was recording it. I called my friend Haim in Israel. I'm like, hey, what's the proper pronunciation of Zion? Is it Zion or is it Zion? He was like, it's Zion. Okay. So I'm way off anyhow. We'll just stick to the American pronunciation of it. But it means like the pinpoint. God, God shows it. God shows that to be the place where his eye never looks away from. And where he says that he will reign forever. They're pretty recent, right? Like in the scope of your career. 2018. 2018. Yeah. Right. So, I mean, that's come, that's eight years now. But now out of the, that's crazy to think. From 2005 to the 15, 10 years, 13 years into my career, I recorded that song. It seems like a long time ago. Yeah, you can't imagine your current music career without Zion, right? No, it's, it gets played every time. And it's, when I play it in front of a predominantly Jewish, or at least a Jewish sympathetic audience, they, they embrace these, these words. Because it's, it's the promise. I've heard it said, when God makes a promise, you can bank on it. When God says something twice in the Bible, he doubly means it. We need to pay attention to it. Well, this promise is repeated 64 times in the, in the whole of the Bible first, first to actually, I was going to say first to Abraham, but it's in Deuteronomy as well. So basically saying, I'm going to make you a great nation. Yeah, well, Abraham would have been in Genesis. So it starts in Genesis 12. I'm going to make you a great nation. I'm going to bless you. I'm going to scatter you to the ends of the earth. But in the last days, I'm going to bring you back again to the land and to my heart. That's the, that's the general gist of the promise that's repeated 64 times. That's the gist of the song Zion. And man, if we're going to, like, if, as a Christian, the idea that God would make a promise to the Jewish people and then change his mind, which is a popular opinion. It's a popular theology that God would change his mind and say, I'm going to transfer my blessings from Israel. Now I'm going to transfer them to Gentile Christianity. If that's what God does, if that's what his character is to change his mind like that, what's to prevent him from changing his mind again, transferring the blessings away from the Gentile church and just giving it to somebody else. And we don't believe this is who God is. When God makes a promise, his promise is irrevocable. As Paul warns us to believe that God's promises and his call are irrevocable. Has God rejected his children? Has God rejected Israel? By no means. That's Romans 11. People think, oh, you, you're, you're writing Jewish music now. Like, no, no, it's just biblical. Just, just writing from the Bible. That's it. Just taking it, I'm taking it literally. I'd rather be accused of taking his word literally as opposed to be like, oh, I thought you were being figurative about that one. I didn't really believe you meant that that you were being poetic. Man. Well, that 18 year old Aaron that we're talking about probably would never have imagined that a few years later, you'd be writing songs like Stein. Yeah. Not days before, I wouldn't have known that, right? I mean, I was 42 years old when I wrote that right here in this room on this desk. I had all my Bibles just spread out. I wrote the chorus on a, on a plane in the middle of the night. I still have the recording. You can hear a guy snoring in the background. Like, just, I'm just singing, bring you back home, I bring you back home, oh, my children. Wow. But then I just spread out all the Bibles, like, all the translations I could across the desk. I'm like, okay, this is the story that I want to tell. It starts with Genesis 12. Let's start with Genesis 12. How do we write a verse about Genesis 12? But I love it. It's so good at those epic narratives, those storytelling songs that are rooted in scripture, man. Rooted in scripture. That's what that's the goal. That's the goal. I love that. Man, well, it's pretty cool that that 18-year-old girl to become the errandshoost. And it's pretty cool that you made time to join us today, bro. It's very kind. I love it. And until we get pizza again, may it be so? Yes. God bless you, man. God bless your audience. And in this work that God's placed in your lap to do, you're taking, you're taking the scary bull by the horns and you're running with it. And I applaud you for it. Anything I never do, man. You know I'm here. I appreciate it. Appreciate it. Love you, dude. Love you, dude. Have a good one. You too.