EP #67- The Psychology of Attachment Styles with Marni Low, NYS Licensed Therapist

[MUSIC] If we come back to this idea of attachment and relationships and these bonds and that this longing and the desire for close relationships, we think what gets really important is understanding our patterns. And sometimes that we can have unhealthy behaviors that get in the way of these close bonds and relationships. Welcome back to another episode of Everyday Endorphins. And happy May, it's the start of mental health awareness month, which I think should be a good reminder to prioritize our mental health and our well-being. This is something that I think that we should be constantly working towards, but I love that there is a month dedicated to celebrating mental health awareness. So let May be a reminder that these are things that we should continuously strive to do and incorporate in our day to day life. Prioritizing things that bring us joy and happiness and continuously working to destigmatize the conversation around mental health. In honor of this month and in celebrating mental health, I wanted to bring on a therapist to talk about our attachment styles. And so I am so excited to have Marney Lo, who is a New York State licensed marriage and family therapist, onto the podcast to discuss the psychology of attachment theory. As we know, our interpersonal relationships are the number one predictor of our happiness and well-being. And our relationships are developed largely in part of how we develop our attachments to other people. And that greatly varies person to person. And the way that we build these attachments, I've come to learn through Marney and my own life experiences are largely built upon the way that we were raised and socialized and the experiences that we've had growing up. So I really enjoyed this conversation with Marney on the different types of attachment styles, how we can use our knowledge around attachment theory to better understand the way that we make decisions, our patterns of behavior, how to recognize toxic patterns of behavior and change them. And the way that our attachment styles can influence the way we form our relationships and how our attachment styles can also contribute to the roles that we play in our relationships. I'm super excited for you guys to hear this interview. Before we get into it, remember to like, rate, and review this podcast on whichever listening platform you prefer. Hi, Marney. Thank you so much for coming on to the podcast. Hi, Stella. How are you? Thank you for having me. I am so excited to have you on as a guest today. As I've gotten to know you better and we've gotten to chat more, I've learned so much around different things that you do in the therapy space and also what we're here to talk about today around, you know, attachment and understanding our attachment styles in a way that can help us better understand the way that we engage in our relationship. So I am so thrilled to have you here today and would love to start off with you talking a little bit about, you know, who you are, how you got into therapy, you know, the focus that you take in your therapy practice, just to set the scene a little bit for my listeners. Thank you for having me again. I have been in the therapy field for about 20 years. I have been in private practice for the last eight years. And prior to that, I worked in nonprofits. I ran supportive housing programs in the Bronx. I worked for child protective services. I worked in Australia for several years talking about the coexisting issues between substance abuse and mental health. I've worked in an abortion clinic. I've worked in East New York. So I've kind of been around. I now find myself in private practice. My kind of niche is working in perinatal mood disorders and pregnancy related issues at large. And that is, you know, a big portion of my practice, but the other part of my practice, which I focus a lot on is young adults and adults and working on relationships, life issues, as you mentioned, attachment. It's like the hot word these days. And it really is important. And I think that it's like the emotional bonds with another person that we've always have had in some form or another throughout our whole lives. And in many of my sessions, you know, whether it's dating or in a marriage or in an open relationship or whatever kind of dynamic, platonic or romantic, these different attachments to each other come up. So we talk about it all the time. And it's really important and it's really crucial to our, I think, our happiness and how we can move and exist through the world. It's interesting because you had said to me that our attachment styles can actually be very fluid and everything that we've learned up until like the present moment, like our childhood, our environment, everything that we've been surrounded by directly influences our attachment style and our behavior. And, you know, it's, it's a product of kind of everything we've been exposed to. So I thought that was a really interesting point. But before we dive a little bit deeper there, I'd love for you to share a little bit more about what attachment style and attachment theory is more generally. Just some, you know, basic principles to kind of orient my listeners around what exactly we're going to be talking about today when we, when we refer to the terminology attachment styles. So I want to be really broad in it in the way that I talk about it in the way I approach it. There are kind of three, sometimes four attachment styles that we, that we kind of set a framework for. And that's secure attachment, right? That's where we like feel comfortable with intimate intimacy and closeness, often warm. We can like be in a relationship and also be really independent. We feel, you know, like good to kind of go off and then come back to that secure base. And again, this could be romantic or platonic. We have avoidant, which is like we want to minimize closeness and intimacy because it can feel too overwhelming. Maybe we feel as if our independence is being taken away. But there's like a, you know, kind of this tendency to avoid that closeness, that even though, you know, as humans, right, like we are wired for connection. There's this longing for something. So we kind of want it, but there's something that has happened or gone on in our previous relationships or patterns that it may feel like too overwhelming or too scary, and it becomes a defense. The avoidance becomes a defense. And then is there is an anxious attachment, which is like kind of preoccupied with the relationship. I feel like a good example. It's like is let's say you're in a relationship with someone or you're dating someone and you're preoccupied. Like you send their text message. You're waiting for the text message to come back. Are they going to message me? You look at your phone all the time, right? Like you may have some physiological responses activated in you. And then when they do message you, all the sudden you're like nervous system comes in again. You can like exist back in your world. You're not preoccupied anymore. You can totally be present. And then, you know, say then there's a next next next text message or you went on a date. Like, are they going to call me? Are they going to call me? There's that whole preoccupation again and this anxious attachment that comes out, right? And I'm using the dating space of kind of giving that example, but like that happens in all sorts of relationships. And then there's one where it's like a disorganized attachment where it's like we both want the closeness and also avoid it at the same time. And it can be pretty chaotic. That is kind of less common, at least seeing the self-menal out of trauma in that. So those are kind of like the attachment styles that are kind of most talked about in like, you know, in all research that's been done and practicing psychologists and therapists. It sounds like the secure attachment style is probably the healthiest. Like, there's there's no anxiousness and there's no avoidance where you're using your like this avoiding like avoiding the other person as like a defense mechanism. Like, it seems like we're trying to exist at the secure attachment style. And from what you just described, like, I'm listening to that and I'm thinking, oh my god, I guess I'm kind of like the anxious attachment person because what in relationships, whether they be romantic or platonic, if like, I don't get a text message back or if I don't get, you know, response to something, I'm wondering why isn't this person responding to me or what's going on? And I mean, I'm not always like that, but those are definitely thoughts that I think can preoccupy my mind. But what's empowering is that we know that there's a lot of nuance around attachment style and that attachment styles can change. So can you speak to that a little bit more? You know, what are those nuances and how can our attachment styles evolve over time? So I might just kind of take a moment and share how I look at things and how I practice. I was trained in Marriage and Family Therapy in California, which uses like a really systemic approach to therapy in its teaching. So for an example, you may come to me in my therapy practice and here you are as individual. Maybe you've come to me because you have like a work stress, like just random. You have a work stress, right? And I know that you're sitting there and that at that moment is like the most pressing thing, right? That is like why you called me. But you come into my office and I know, right? Because we're dynamic people and we have big lives that you're sitting in front of me. And there's so many systems like kind of bubbling around you, right? One could be relationships. So both friendships, romantic relationships. If you have any siblings, what is your job? What are the dynamics with co-workers? Tell me about your family. What about religion? What about school? What was your childhood like? Where do you live? Where did you live? Where do you want to live? There's so many what kind of traumas may you have had. What kind of amazing experiences have you had? I think that therapy is oftentimes, right? The precipice of coming is something bad is happening, right? But actually therapy is such an amazing place where you can come and tell me the most wonderful experience you just had. I'm like, how good does that feel in your body? We can internalize that, right? That can only help for our own self-confidence, our self-worth. And also that internalizes into a secure base of our own self. So then in relationship to someone else, we may feel more secure. So that anxious attachment of waiting for someone, am I worthy? Did they like me? Did I say the wrong thing? All those insecurities don't come up. Or maybe can be quieter. So in my approach that's systematic, I am always thinking about the now. But I'm also curious about the past. So what are these past relationships? What are the relationships like with your mom? What are the relationships like with your dad? Is there a grandparent, an or uncle, or someone who's so meaningful to you that you had a really secure relationship with? Maybe you didn't have a secure relationship with your mom, right? Maybe you didn't have a secure relationship with your dad. Or it was different between one parent and the other. All of these historical relationship bonds that are foundational to who we are and how we relate with each other in the world plays such a role in that text message coming through. It's like-- And normally we wouldn't think about that, too. We're not thinking, oh, because I have this specific type of relationship with, let's say, a grandparent. It has some sort of weight or influence on my present day actions. Like that's not at the forefront of our minds. But it's so interesting to kind of inquire within and think about how our own relationships with other people and our previous experiences, a lot of which, especially in childhood, we just can't control. Like they kind of happen to us. How much that shapes our own present experience, like so much that's out of our control. Like consequently then shapes what's in our control in the present moment as we get older, as we have more agency, and more consciousness and awareness. Absolutely. And I think that's where your question comes in around our attachment styles and our attachment relationships can change. And I believe that they can, because you're right. You don't have control as a baby or as a young child around how your parent interacted with you. But as that child, and even now we still have a longing for those relationships. There is a deep longing for connection, a deep longing for connectedness. It's kind of like we're often activated, not by the present, by the past. And so that's where those historical feelings and relationships that are so deep in our bodies, our bodies remember what that feels like, and that's what's being activated. And so in the ways in which you're talking about how do we change those relationships, or how do we can we change our attachment styles? A secure attached relationship is the best you can do. There's mutual love, mutual respect, a connectedness, a closeness, a loving bond. And everyone defines love differently. But that feeling, that like, you can sink your teeth in, that makes you feel warm, that makes you feel good, that makes you feel like I'm safe. And it's such a beautiful feeling. And I'm not saying that it comes so easily, but that's what we aspire to have. But here's the thing. So let's say one person may be securely attached. Let's say one partner had some idealed childhood where there's a total secure bond, or they'd done a lot of work, and their own selves to be able to be secure in a relationship. Now, then the other partner, let's say, has an anxious attachment. It's kind of like, may have always been looking for that longing to be met, or that attachment need, to be met by a parent or a caregiver or lover, whoever it might have been in the past. And maybe it never was. So there's already deep in our body this anxiety, or this kind of even unconscious knowing, just this feeling that they're not going to call back, or I'm not good enough, or my needs aren't going to be met. And so that's when the text message is, you're always looking at your phone, and the preoccupation comes in. But somebody who's securely attached is going to continue to show up for you. They're going to call when they said they were going to call. They're going to text when they said they were going to text. They're going to do that thing they said they're going to do because they're reliable, and they're carrying, and they're compassionate, and they're all those things that I just mentioned. And so over time, the more that we can believe that what they say they're going to do, they've actually done, and can start to trust that because they've shown up every time they're reliable, that hopefully the anxiety will quiet down and be replaced with security, with more confidence in the relationship, which then hopefully can also translate into the confidence within the self that I am worthy, that they're going to show up for me, that we're going to do that thing that I'm loveable, that I'm worthy. So other people and other experiences can also shape and transform our own attachment styles. Depending on maybe the people you surround yourself with or the experiences that you have, I love the point that you brought up around like that bodily unconscious intuition that we have, how our bodies hold on to these narratives, and the narratives that we create in our head that are so closely aligned to certain feelings that are stored in our bodies, those can be activated and triggered subconsciously, depending on certain experiences that we have. And I think it really speaks to how our body does store these emotions. And for those who don't know, whoever's listening, I am a certified yoga teacher. And last summer when I went to get my certification, I learned a lot about how the body does hold on to emotion. More so than we think, and like yoga is such a beautiful practice, because it can help us link our breath with our movement and kind of tap into whatever's stored there. But I'm really curious to hear from like a therapy perspective. How can people understand where those emotions are stored in their bodies and start to release that? How do you see that as a therapist? And how do you advise your clients as to how to unlock those areas in their body where there is some sort of tension or emotion that's being stored? That's not serving them. Yeah, I mean, I think that that is like the million dollar question in many ways, right? Like there's so much emphasis now in some spaces about how we want to teach our children, right, about emotions and how we can name them and like this development of emotional intelligence and awareness or entuneness, which is so important. And I think that like a lot of us have missed that. So that is like the most million dollar question because it's hard to know we're feeling sometimes, right? And I think that we can kind of go back to our past where let's say, you know, you were sad growing up and a parent or somebody was like, oh, you're fine. You know, instead of being like, I see that you're crying. Can you tell me what's happening for you? Are you feeling this? Are you feeling that? Like what does that mean? What's going on for you? Like how does that make you feel? So we can start, there's such a lack of those conversations, right? In my practice, that exists all the time. Even the most emotionally entuned person sometimes, right? We're like, we're kind of associating like a feeling with the body. And so if somebody is in my office or when I'm working with someone and there's a really strong emotion that's coming up, right? Maybe it's sadness, maybe it's frustration, maybe it's anger, maybe it's shame. I'll say, "Tell me what's happening in your body. What are you feeling in your body right now?" And they may say, "I'm feeling in my chest. I feel like I can't. I feel really heavy. I feel like I can't breathe." And so we'll be able to set associate, "Okay, well, you just told me you're feeling a lot of shame." You're feeling telling me that, you know, when this thing that had happened to you when you were, you know, at work the other day, left you feeling so bad, and that you're feeling it in your chest. And so then they're able to identify what's happening in their body and being able to name the feeling at the same time, which is really, really grounding and really helpful, right? Because I think that sometimes we can become so dysregulated when we feel something where we don't know how to feel it. We don't know how to name it, right? It's like, "Oh, I just feel like I'm spinning." Right? Okay, well, okay, let's take a deep breath. You feel like you're spinning. So even as I just did this now, I'm like, "Okay." So in right now, I feel like in the top of my stomach, the bottom of my diaphragm, maybe like a little bit like a butterfly. Right? And I probably can associate that with like being on the podcast, right? Like, even though, even though, you know, like here I am talking about the thing that like fills me up so much, right? Like, there's this feeling happening for me. But when we're so dysregulated and we're like, "Feel like we're spinning," and we can't identify what is going on with us, it feels really out of control. And so if we're able to like come back to our body, even if we don't know what is a word of feeling, but then can be like, "Oh, getting that feeling like in my chest again." Oh, I know the last time I felt that, you know, I was feeling like, "You know, I had all that shame around this thing." And then I know that the biggest antidote for shame is compassion. So like, "How can I give myself a little love there?" And maybe then I can let go of some of it. So it's kind of like using our body as cues. And once you're able to tag a bodily sensation to an emotion, the next time you feel that bodily sensation, you can say, "Oh, I guess I'm actually feeling this way." Like, I can name it now. And the fact that I can name it means I can do something about it. Totally. And so then think about if we're talking about historical insecurities or like how our past shape our present, that those feelings are often not what's really going on presently. Like it may have been that feeling of that shame, but that might be more often than not, it might not be new. That's this old feeling. But we're triggered because it's in our body and we're reminded of something. We can be reminded of an interaction we had with an ex-partner. It can be reminded of the thing that happened in high school, feeling like I was never chosen in high school. Right? So like, that's a good one. Feeling like I was never chosen in high school. I was never the one that like people wanted. I was always like the friend, et cetera, et cetera. So like, why would I assume now that this guy or girl or whoever, whatever kind of relationship we're in, is going to want me now? I was told as a child that I'd never be wanted or I wasn't good enough or, you know, whatever negative kind of self-talk that was internalized. You know, why would I believe that that's true now? That someone would want me, that I am worth it. And so we want to, like some of the goals here is to, like, unwind those patterns. And then in relationships, right? Because if we're coming from it from our past, that might not be helpful. Like, we don't need it now. We don't always need it now. Sure. Like, maybe we need to protect ourselves. Maybe we've been hurt a ton of times. So like, maybe I am going to be a little bit avoided because it's scary. But the person across me, if they're secure attached, right? They can continue to say, I'm going to be here. I'm going to be here. You want to go out? This is going to be in friendships, too, right? It doesn't have to be romantic. But if we're able to kind of understand our past and how it may be playing out now, we may be more successful in relationships, right? And I mean, again, I mean that in like platonic relationship, work relationships, romantic. The thoughts that we have that are just kind of, you know, our mental narratives that are kind of deep rooted and developed from past experiences, those arise maybe from like the bodily feeling we have that we then associate with an emotion and then the thought comes into play. But these thoughts, I think, can also self-perpetuate and also kind of like self-inflict more pain in suffering on to us. Because once you have that thought, then I think it like reaffirms the negative emotional experience that we have. And then in turn, we can also feel that in our bodies. So to kind of break that cycle, like once we have that awareness, how do we break the cycle of self-perpetuating negative thoughts that can make us feel even more worse? Well, I think that there's a ton of ways to do it. I think we can do it individually, which is always really important, right? Like we need to kind of start with ourselves and work on that, right? And do the work in therapy, where, or, you know, in your own world, whatever that might look like, to actively shift those patterns and negative thought processes. So that can be like, let's say the kind of the baseline narrative tips to a negative place of, I'm never going to be chosen. Well, we can change that thought by saying, well, let's just speed that thought, right? Like what would make you think that you would never be chosen? Well, then my next question that is usually, well, how much do you believe that's true? And then I might get, we might get into a conversation around a specific incident that happened, or something that happened in childhood, or something more present, right? And then I think that's the kind of path of the relationship, or an apparent relationship, that makes you feel like you're not good enough, or that you're not worthy. And so we want to really just, we want to understand that. We want to figure that out. We want to shift that narrative, right? I've like again, again, how much do you believe that really to be true? I mean, the likelihood, typically, right? And some of it might not be. We can shift that cognitive thought into a more positive one. Like, of course I'm worthy, right? I have all these great qualities. I have all these wonderful friendships. I'm really good at this thing. Right? Like I had this great relationship. This is one situation or one incident in like actually a very secure relationship that has left me feeling bad, which is going to happen, right? Like we make people that we love feel bad sometimes. Maybe we don't always mean it, but it's going to happen. And that's also real life. Exactly. And you would mention something earlier in this conversation around going to therapy, but not necessarily when they're in a rough spot. And I think there's a lot of value to that, because I think we often turn to support either through therapy or whatever avenue that you know, you people seek support, like when we're feeling really down, like when we're feeling like the world is spinning or like we don't have a sense of control. But, you know, I would advocate that it's important to still seek out that kind of support, even when things are going good for you. So you can start to strengthen those new pathways in your brain to kind of rewire those thoughts so that if they're already baseline strength, and when you're in like a quote unquote, good place, they'll be even more present for you when you need them the most. So as a therapist, you know, do you see people come to you more often when they really are struggling and they need help or do people kind of enter the world of therapy when they feel like things are actually going fine in their lives and they just want that extra level of support? I would say that there's a mix. There's usually like a precipice for somebody to make that first call. And then from there, there is the understanding of the value of therapy and when you're not in crisis, what can be done for yourself and the support that it can provide for you and the space where it's just like, there is somebody that I can be any one to anyone, right? Like I'm kind of a vessel. Like I'm here sitting across from you and like, I become what it is that they need. And I can engage with them from a therapeutic obviously standpoint, but I can be there in any way that they need. Like I've had people just come and sleep. That's what they needed to do. And it was therapeutic like beyond. And that's just like one example. When you're not in crisis, there is so much exploring that can be done. I don't think that people need to be in therapy forever unless they need to be in therapy forever. But I think that there is a time when they might not need it anymore. And I think that not everything in life needs to be pathologized, which I think we have a tendency to do. Sometimes anxiety isn't bad. Sometimes we're going to feel sad. And a lot of that makes sense. If we come back to this idea of attachment and relationships and these bonds and this longing and the desire for close relationships, we think what gets really important is understanding our patterns and sometimes that we can have unhealthy behaviors that get in the way of these close bonds and relationships. I'm really glad you bring that up because another question I wanted to ask you is, how can you spot when a coping mechanism or an attachment style or certain behavior that you exhibit is actually quite unhealthy? Because I think sometimes we can get so caught up in it because it's so habitual. We don't realize that it's either self-sabotage or it's actually perpetuating a really unhealthy cycle to be in. I think you're right. And sometimes it's hard to know what that is, right? Or when it's happening and there's usually a crisis that happens, right? Which is again, what lands someone in my office and that's usually a good time, right? Maybe there's a conflict with a friend or multiple conflicts with multiple friends or relationships that never seem to work out or aren't fulfilling or they're like high conflict or maybe there's some unhealthy reliance on each other in some way. And so I think that it's hard to know until there's an incident or event that allows a person to stand back and say, what the fuck is going on? And then be able to kind of work through that and figure that out. And you know, oftentimes those relationships aren't just in romantic relationships, but they're mirrored in other relationships. You know, I think that oftentimes how someone engages with me, right, is probably a window into. I mean, it's going to be different obviously because I'm just a different dynamic, but like that it's a mirror to how relationships are outside of this room. Yeah, I mean, especially beyond romantic relationships, you can think about the relationships you have with your friends, how those change over time, the relationships with your family. I mean, a lot of my listeners are around my age, like young adult early to mid 20s and the 20s is a period of time where your relationships are changing rapidly and people are kind of coming in and out of your life. And then there are some people that are constant and, you know, I think there's definitely struggles around how do I maintain these relationships and friendships that I've built in college now that I'm not at school anymore and how do I build new relationships working and living in a new city. And there's so much going on, especially, you know, because of the pandemic, I think my grade and the grade above me were kind of like forced to move back into their family homes. And it's a really hard dynamic to do that when you're like an adult and you were in college for four years, and you have your freedom and your own life. And then you move back in with your parents and like psychologically, it does something to you. I know it definitely did something to me where I felt so lucky to like have, you know, a safe place to be and to be with loving, loving family and to have a roof over my head and have the ability to stay at home and save money and like do something that was smart financially for myself. But even having those fortunes, it was still really challenging because I think it made me re-engage with my, with reflecting on the relationship that I have with my parents. For better, you know, for better or for worse, recognizing how that's evolved over time and you know, how relationships with parents also change when you're not a kid anymore. I think that's like a really hard pill to swallow because there's so much that I think kind of just surfaces like randomly. And you don't even realize that it's there and then boom, like one day you're kind of faced with, oh my god, like this is why my parents made that choice or this is, you know, the how they behave and it actually says a lot about the way I behave. I think there's a lot to be said there around recognizing how relationships can evolve over time and like the role that you play in that. Yeah, I mean, as I hear you talk the word that comes to me which has like always been my favorite word for whatever reason since I was in grad school is the idea of differentiation which is like becoming your own individual self in the context of your nuclear family. And it's like it's a it's a hard thing because you're figuring out like, you know, we're always kind of boundary pushing and we're always in some way pushing against that boundary of the parent slash now adult child relationship, right? It's hard. It's a really big transitional period because you're saying like, wait, I'm an adult. Like I can do this thing. I have a job and they're saying, well, we're still your parents and they know that you're now an adult. But there is a dynamic that has been established for a really long time. We all roles in our families, right? We all have different roles whether we have siblings or no siblings or multiple siblings. We all play some kind of role. Are we the pacifier? Are we the jokester? Are we the one who causes the trouble? Right? Are we like who who are we in each of these systems? And it's hard to break away from those jobs, right? Or those roles that we have. And that continues to get harder as you continue to kind of come into your adulthood. Because you want to differentiate, right? That's the goal is that you can go off and be independent. You can come home and you can be safe, right? As I hear you, the really secure attachment, right? You have a secure base. And although there's difficulties, there's difficulties in like that dynamic of, oh my God, do I need to be home? My men have dinner with them. I kind of want to go see my friends. I meant to do something else, right? What's my expectation here? But that secure relationship, that secure bond, that the emotional base that's what I'm looking for, that secure base allows you to like kind of go on and fly and be free. What a cool feeling, how special it is. And also, you know, something that came to my thoughts as you were speaking is how there is I think this concept of like individuation and differentiation, whatever you want to call it, especially even in close friendships that were built like in high school and in college. Like as more time passes, we start to realize how a lot of people do change or like their circumstances change. And I think that can also shape the nature of that friendship or relationship. And something that I think a lot of young adults struggle with in a particular is, well, how do I hold on to these friendships? And am I holding on to them because I want to continue the relationship because I've been friends with them forever? Or am I holding on to it because like I actually care for this person and I know that they are a true friend and they'll stay in my life forever. And I think that's also a really hard thing to navigate because let's say you've had a friendship that you were really, really close with. And in a way, that was like a really codependent relationship. Like you guys were super close and did everything together and like this person, maybe you considered your best friend, but then over time, maybe things happen where you recognized, oh, this person may not be the healthiest person for me, but maybe there's still that desire to keep the relationship because it feels right. Like they're still your best friend or they're still someone that's prominent in your life. And when we're faced with those situations, how can we start to reflect on the nature of the like the evolution of that relationship and how maybe our attachment style within that relationship may or may not have shifted over time? I think you just answered this question that you had before about how do we know if the patterns in relationships are healthier? And as I'm hearing, right, in the example that you're using is exactly what we were been talking about is identifying that like, you know, maybe this relationship isn't making me feel so good all the time. How come every time I leave hanging out with this person, I kind of feel like a bit shit, right, or frustrated or like let down whatever it might be? They think that we're like in their condes. I don't mean assessment as in like, we're scrutinizing, we're bad or us being negative, but in a constant awareness of like, what are these interactions like? How are they like fulfilling me or not fulfilling me? And you're right, like, friendship shift over time, as we shift over time, as our interests may be different, as people may move away from each other, both physically and emotionally or in like, how they just move through the world. And I think that it's hard and it can be painful and there's a grief to them. There's a grief to some of these relationships, even if believing them is ultimately for the better and maybe for both of you, maybe for just you. But there is a grief there, right? It's a breakup. There can be heartbreak in that. And I think that it's, you know, again, not to be a total realist, but like, it's going to happen. And it doesn't, as I say that with ease, I know it's not easy. Exactly. I mean, many of these things are in, but life is always filled with challenges. And I think if we just lived in a very easy life, there would be no growth and no learning. So these are things that we just constantly have to recognize and reconcile and work through. But, you know, as we're talking today around attachments and relationships and building more self-awareness and understanding, you know, how we can identify emotions when they arise and how they arise, it seems like all of this is very related to our happiness and our general well-being. And so, you know, my question here is, what role do you see happiness and, you know, our ability to understand our attachment style and where our emotions arise within us play? Like, how do they intersect and how is this understanding of our emotions and of our attachment styles? How does that kind of influence our own happiness and well-being? Well, you know, I think that there's this part that might be worth mentioning where if we think about ourselves in relationship to others, we're kind of always in a bit of a dance, right? Each interaction is a little bit of a dance and it can flow and sometimes we may step on each other's speed. You know, sometimes it might be like, we're a party in all night and it's really awesome. But there's like this part and also the identifying of like, if I'm in a relationship, maybe this is a friendship where I'm activated by something someone said or by a behavior or an action, that part of knowing like, what activated me? What was my response? So like, if let's say I felt, I felt hurt and my reaction to feeling hurt is anger. Maybe I throw something. The anger then leads my friend or my partner, whoever it is, to kind of withdraw to avoid me because they're like, I'm looking at this. If I'm sticking with just our side, right? And you're saying, okay, well, how do we identify? Well, that's a really clear behavior that probably wasn't my finest moment where I'm able to say, oh my god, like, what just happened? Why did I get so mad? And then may I be able to take another moment? I got really mad because I felt like when so and so said this to me, I felt criticized or I felt judged or I felt hurt and that was my reaction. So if we have to identify like our reaction and why we respond in certain ways, that can often help kind of like calm the need for like more of a more conflict. We can have a resolution if there was conflict. And that also plays a part in continuing to identify a secure relationship or establish a secure relationship, friendship, platonic, doesn't matter. And then therefore, right? Like if we're feeling more secure and we're feeling more connected, we're feeling the love, then we're just going to be happier. Right? Like if we're always walking around being like, you know, my god, are they going to call or preoccupied? Or I've done this wrong, I did something bad. Work, we're almost like we're robbing ourselves of happiness because a lot of things that, you know, there is a physiological kind of component and biological components to some of these things and feelings that may be happening too. But in many, many cases, we're able to identify those things, be more aware of that. And we're going to be happier. Exactly. It just sounds like we need to start with building that awareness and taking the time to work on ourselves. And when I say that I mean, it's a constant process and it's something that we're always going to have to do because I think every life experience is a learning to prepare you for the next one. So if you can engage with everything that happens to you as something that's just going to prepare you for the next best thing, then you can kind of start to redefine or take a step back and think about how you engage in certain situations with the knowledge that it's all learning opportunity and it will bring you to the next best thing. And you see things in that way and also start to see every experience as like, hey, like what can I learn from this about myself, about other people, about the beliefs that I have, the perspective that I have on the world. How can I use this to my benefit so that I can just lead a happier life, like just kind of fast track myself to happiness. And it seems like the way to do so is to find security within yourself, like to find that feeling of security first within yourself, you know, first and foremost. Yes, I think that that's a really important place to start. I think where it can become more challenging and this is part of our awareness of kind of taking that breath and having our feet on the ground and being able to deregulate like our nervous system for a moment is that in many of these cases, we're so used to being in a certain kind of state of mind or way in which we engage or move through the world. Because we like we talked about we've had to do certain things as protective measures or we've been hurt in the past or, you know, and on the opposite side of that, like we're just so open it like you just bring in all the love. And we're so we're so in it that it's hard sometimes to see outside ourselves until like I said, like that thing can that thing happens right or it can be brought to our attention in some way of what might be happening for us. And so like until we can really put your feet on the ground and take that deep breath because all of these behaviors are typically informative of something else right or have been established or developed for a specific reason or so in it that we're it's like hard to even know we're doing it. And I think that that can be like the really challenging part. Sometimes we don't even know that we're engaging in the world the way we are that might be hurtful for someone. And then it's like life is the wake up call. So even if it might feel painful in the moment, it's actually saying to you, hey, like it's time to reevaluate the way that you're engaging with the world and and use this as an opportunity to see what you can do differently to see how you can improve and actually find greater happiness within yourself. Speaking of which my final question for you is something that I ask every guest that comes on to the podcast is directly related to happiness and endorphins and how you find joy in your day to day life. And so what I'm wondering is what is something that brings you a bit of endorphins every day. And I'm really good pair of vintage jeans is a good one. That was like the first thing that came to my mind when I read that when I read that question. The ocean that that's not every day I love doing what I do. I love talking about the brain I love talking about relationships. I love helping to shift patterns. I love helping people who are in, you know, the reproductive stage of their lives and before that and the, the whole narrative gives me a lot of endorphins. I'm really good at learning that gives me endorphins, hoping that I'm establishing some kind of secure attachment. So many, so many things bring endorphins and that's you know why I love asking this question because some people answer just one thing other people have a whole laundry list of things that bring them endorphins and their day to day life. I'm really refreshing to hear from other people about what lights them up and it's also a good reminder to focus on the things that bring you that joy and sense of fulfillment and happiness. I definitely can relate to the vintage jeans and to the ocean. I know you're a very fashionable person. So please give me any recommendations for great, the rift and vintage stores because I am on the hunt for a new pair of jeans. But the ocean is something I'm absolutely looking forward to this summer. I, I love being near water. So, and I think that's a very calming part of nature for me as well. and just a calming place to be that really makes me feel happy and full of that and orphan high. So thank you, Marney, so much for sharing your perspectives today and helping to educate myself and my listeners about attachment theory and attachment styles and how we can engage with ourselves and our relationships with a bit more of a critical and compassionate eye. It's been so lovely having you. Where can my listeners find you on social media and online? It's been wonderful being here. You can find me at [email protected] or marneylow.com is my website. I am not huge on social media but I do have a Instagram and it's Marney Low, M-A-R-N-I-L-O-W, but I do not use it very often. So it is best to find me by sending an email a little bit old school. It's probably better that you're not super big on social media because as we know it is not the best for our mental health. Correct. It is not my favorite place to be. Well everyone you heard what Marney said you can shoot an email finder on her website. Thank you so much Marney. It was a pleasure having you as a guest. Thank you. It's lovely being here. Thank you for listening and remember to like, rate and review this podcast on whichever listening platform you prefer. Don't forget to keep spreading endorphins and find things that bring you endorphins every day. See you next time.