EP #63- A Comedian's Craft: The Art of Humor and Endorphins with Ellen Karis, Stand-Up Comedian and Actress

(gentle music) In order to be a standup comic, first of all, it takes an enormous amount of time to find your voice. The one thing about standup is their my words and that I felt like I have, that's the one thing I have control over. Even like an acting, I mean, it's somebody else's words, there's a director, there's production. I mean, it really, to be a standup, it is one of the truest forms of the entrepreneurial spirit. Welcome back to another episode of Everyday in Dorfins. This week I am so thrilled to have Ellen Caris, otherwise known as the Greek Goddess of Comedy. On the podcast, Ellen is a standup comedian having performed all over North America and she has a new special coming out on Dry Bar Comedy. Ellen's also an actress and has appeared on numerous TV shows and movies. She was in Tina Fey's movie Sisters and plays a waitress on the Marvelous Mrs. Maisel for the last three seasons. She also has a weekly podcast called Caris' Comedy Corner available on iTunes and Ellen is also the author of the children's book called Special People, Godparents in the Orthodox Christian Faith that's available on Amazon. In this interview, Ellen shares how she first got into comedy after working in the corporate world for many years. The art of humor writing in her own personal craft. We also talk about the Chris Rock and Will Smith incident at the Oscars this year. Ellen has a very interesting perspective to share on this and the relationship between comedy and our mental health. We discuss the role humor plays in creating relationships and connections with other people and how comedians grapple with their own mental health through the process of writing jokes reflecting on their own life experiences. Being vulnerable on stage and sharing their own experiences in a way that's relatable yet also very entertaining. Super excited for you all to hear this interview. Before we get into it, I have a brief message for my sponsor, Inker. Ellen, it is such a pleasure having you on the podcast. Thank you so much for being here today. Thank you for having me. I am thrilled. We've known each other for quite some time in the Greek community. And I know we spoke about this previously on your podcast. It's just so funny how at least 10, 15 years have passed and we're sitting here today with our own podcast talking about everything related to comedy, the Greek Orthodox faith, everything we've been up to over the past 15 years. I have to tell you, I had such a great time talking to you. I won't even say it was an interview. It was just a great conversation. You are so wise beyond your years. And to see you grow up to be such a fine young lady, your parents, as I mentioned on my podcast, and I'll say on this podcast, I adore. They just were, they're great. They were just so committed to you and just loved you and were proud of you and supportive. And did the parental thing that they needed to do to help you be successful, which most of the time is not easy. So I just loved it and now to see you morph into a professional podcast house, a consultant, a yoga teacher, just in every day, I want to spread good cheer person is really, it's just great. And of course, for people that agree, we'll understand this, for people that are not Greek, might not, but of course other ethnic groups sometimes feel the same way, but there is a connection. So there's a connection with our ethnicity, there's a connection with our church, our religion. So it's great. It's fun, it's good. These are the things that you're grateful for. Thank you. And it's like, I always say it's like Jewish geography. There's just strong Greek geography. There's a tight knit Greek community. It's a deep bond. And thank you. Shout out to Alina and George. Love the parents. I think we have like a five minute, like Alina and George fan club at the beginning of our chat on your podcast. But we're not here today to talk about them, even though I could talk about them forever. We are here today to talk about you and all that you do. And you're so accomplished and successful. And I love that you're a comedian, because I love going to comedy shows. I somehow won like, I don't even like three free tickets, I guess, to the comic strip on the upper east side when I was in high school. Like my dad kept getting phone calls from them, saying like, hey, we can offer you like 15 tickets where you don't have to pay the entry fee. You just have to pay the two drink minimum. So I remember him just being a gas teller, you can take these tickets, bring your friends. And I got like 15 of my friends from high school. We went like two or three times, and we were at the comic strip. And it was just such a fun time. And there's something really special about the experience of being in a crowd, watching people do stand up, tell jokes, being together. It's a really fun energy. And so I think like the viewer perspective is quite different, maybe than the comedian perspective. But I would love for you to share a little bit about how you got into comedy and also what it's like to perform stand up. And you know, you've been doing it for so many years now. Like how has that evolved throughout your lifetime? So the comic strip, funny that that is the club that you mentioned, is the club, the place that I went to to learn how to write comedy the first time. So it's a very special place. I'm a regular there. I love that club. It is the oldest comedy club in New York City. It's got a lot of history. I'm so glad that it is managed to survive all of the challenges that aside from the one that we just went through, the COVID challenge. And then all the other cycles that they've gone through in the last 40 years-- I think it's like 43 years now. It's open. So it's funny that you mentioned that. No coincidence. I went backtrack. I was raised in a typical Greek family, typical traditional. I'm a great people, great people, love them, love everybody, all that, quirky, crazy, quirky, but you love them anyway, of course. And I think I always had in me that performer. I certainly was the type of person that I wanted to make everybody happy. But I did like to just little girl, do my own little thing, dance around, put on music, dolls, the whole bit. I had that part in me. But I also watched a lot of television when I was a kid. Now my parents would have been reported. But back then, it was normal to stick your kid in front of a TV. So my mother could talk on the phone for four hours. And so I know that that was a big influence. And I used to watch I love Lucy reruns with my great grandmother, my great grandmother loved Lucy O'Ball. And so I know that that was a big thing. And then Carol Brunette and Mary Tyler Moore and all these. I wish I knew we're from different generations. So sadly, I can't relate, but I wish I knew. Well, there is YouTube and MTV. And I mean, TV, I think it's what MTV. But anyway, I get it. And you know what? Honestly, the humor to me, I think, is a bit different now. I think that back then, you could be much sillier. I feel sometimes things that are called comedy are like serious. But anyway, we can get to that. We can get to that. So long story short, college, of course, I got an accounting degree. Math was a strong suit of mine. I love business. I had an uncle that was a CPA. I'm like, you did well. I'm like, OK, I want to do that. You know, it's fine. And it was all fine. I did it. No regrets. But just get back to the Greek parents, even if I was able to express myself and say, hey, I want to be an actress comedian, that wasn't going to fly, OK, in our house. OK, you know, Eleni and Tassos were not going to like go for the-- what do you mean you're going to be an actress? So that was never there. And I never said anything about it, ever. And I wouldn't even think about it. Got my CPA, got my MBA in finance, all great, Wall Street, fun time, again, no regrets. And then finally, I remember thinking, all right, I've got my educational degrees, my accolades. This is great. I'm immersed in this. I need something. I need to express myself. And I remember sitting in meetings, business meetings, and you're a little part of this world too, so you know. And people were so dry and were so serious. And I remember, I think that one of the triggers was like, somebody was talking about, I don't know, a journal entry, a report or something. And they were talking about it like somebody. somebody needed a blood transfusion. This is, I mean, I understand you have to have reports and, you know, it's a public company. I get all that. You know, I get all the high level, low level, middle level, I get it. But it was just, it was just like, I don't know if I can keep a straight face anymore and talk about accounts payable. Like, I don't think I could do this anymore. Or I wanna at least do something different. I need a diversion. I wanna write. I've got stories in my head. I've had experiences in life. So I decided to take an improv class at the new school. And I loved it. It was once a week. I mean, I remember just like the teacher saying, pretend like you're putting on mascara. Use your imagination. I mean, just simple things like that. But it was just a part of my brain that got tapped into, that was, it's almost like there was dust on it. I went, and then all of a sudden, like it got clean. You know? So anyway, I did the class. I loved it. I was like, okay, I'm gonna keep going. And I took an acting class. And then in one acting class, morphed into another. I did scene study. I did commercials. At the time, there were soap operas around. I took a soap opera class. All these things that were just so new and exciting. And I did always love theater. I always, I grew up in New York City. I love theater. I love live performances. To me, there was nothing like going into a theater. And I did go see comedy. I wouldn't say I went to a lot of comedy. But at that time, there were a lot of comedians that were doing, had their own sitcoms at that time. So again, long story short, I was studying with this teacher. Her name is Penny Templeton. I will always give her credit for the rest of my life. And I studied for her with her for about two years. And I would say about a year into it. She would have us do, for the class warm up, she would have us do something that was happening in our lives, like improv, something from our life. And at the time, my sister, one of my sisters was getting married. And every week, I would come in and I would talk about my sister's wedding, and the Greek thing, the drama, this and that, who Yaya's got her list of people to invite. The whole thing, it was crazy. And I wasn't even getting married. I would just suck them to the vortex. So I would, you know, act this out. And she would laugh. And then, so a year into studying with her, she said to me, one day she goes, "I hope that you're talking about your Greek family in your standup." And I go, "I don't do standup." And she goes, "This is what she said." She goes, "Get some." Just like that. So I remember that night, I got into the cab, I went home, and I was like, "Oh my God, I stand up." Wow, maybe if I do standup, I can get a sitcom. 'Cause that became my goal. I wanted to get a sitcom. So, and all the standups had sitcoms at that. Roseanne and Jerry Seinfeld and Ray Romano and Kevin James. So I went to the comic strip. I founded in backstage in ad. They were giving a eight week writing class. I went to the class. And it wasn't just me and the comic, whose name is DF Sweetler, who to this day still teaches comedy there. And by the way, looks exactly the same. I'm like, "DF, can I borrow your time machine?" I can't believe it. But anyway, and you know it's interesting. When you learn a new craft, it's so important that some of the things people tell you, that good advice really sticks to you. Like I remember DF saying to me, so it was one of the first things I learned. He goes, "Right, right clean, because you can always make clean dirty. Don't write dirty, because you can't reverse it." One of the first things, and it stuck in my brain. And I remember taking a hosting class, and somebody saying Eddie Brill actually was the instructor there. He used to warm up for Letterman, and he said, "If you perform, and there's just a small audience, don't take it out on everybody else. Don't take it out on the people that came to see you. It's the people that didn't come to see you. You give them a good show, even if it's just two people." So again, like some of these, I'm so grateful for some of these pieces of advice that I got early on. But anyway, that started it. And I'll never forget my first time on stage, five minutes, maybe one joke, maybe 30 seconds was mildly funny. You know, and it just kept going. And I did, I went to open mics. There was a whole thing with, you have to do these bringer shows where you bring your friends. I dragged every single person that I knew over the years. Finally, you have to stop doing that. It's been a really, really long road, but I'm way in it. And I mean, now, the frustration is that I represent myself. And I have to get everything myself. And I feel like the missing piece is really having that good representation, like that good booker to be just like, "Okay, here's your schedule." And I'd be like, "Oh, that's so nice." - Right, wow, Ellen, I have so many questions and comments from this amazing monologue of your journey and your career. So first of all, I think it's really fascinating to see how you went from pursuing accounting and getting your MBA and finance, like very corporate immersed into now fully creative. And I think one, it goes to show that it's really special to be able to do both, like to be in a very corporate environment but also have a creative passion, double threat, triple threat. I think that's so awesome. And it also goes to show that, you know, it's never too late to explore other passions or try out things that maybe kind of like the wake up call, like you said, it was like dust was on your brain and then you just, "Woof, it like, it cleared." Like it's never too late to try things that kind of spark an endorphin or a joy in your life. Like recognizing that throughout the course of your life, there are gonna be so many opportunities you may be presented with. And you might surprise yourself with trying out different things and finding different things to be interested in and that kind of shapes your own story, which I find to be really fascinating and definitely such a role model for me. And I also wanna talk a little bit about the experience of you starting out at the comic strip doing this comedy writing class. I really wanna hear more about this because my sophomore year of college, I took a humor writing class. I was a creative writing minor. And I took this class because I don't consider myself to be very funny. And people definitely laugh like when I say things, but it's always confuse me whether or not they're laughing with me or at me. So I don't think that I'm that funny of a person. And I wanted to take this class because I wanted to figure out well, like how can I actually be funny? Like I can never pick up on sarcasm. That's like one of my fatal flaws. And I just wanted to learn like what is the art of humor writing. And something that really stuck with me was how comedy is really about like the element of surprise. Like that's kind of what gets you going. And to be honest, you know, like it was a difficult class for me because I really had to push myself out of my comfort zone like figuring out how do I actually write something that's funny. Like I had thought about a few experiences in my life that when I look back on it now, like it's hilarious that like there are certain things that I got away with growing up in New York City that I wrote about that I thought was hilarious, but it was so hard to translate like a narrative in my head onto paper and then like present it to a class. Like that was really difficult for me. And it's so funny that, you know, we're talking about humor writing today because I was on a call earlier for work. And we were talking about the concept of like the benign violation theory, which I'm sure you're familiar with, which is, you know, I have a picture of it right now. I'm looking at it. And it's the concept that humor only occurs when three conditions are satisfied. So a situation is a violation. The situation is benign and both perceptions occur simultaneously. And when you're hitting that middle ground, it's like, oh, that's really funny. That's a funny joke. So I don't know if this was something maybe you learned back in the day when you were doing comedy writing or if there's anything else that really stuck out to you when you were learning how to actually write comedy and then transition into performing standup. When I was your age, you know, and younger, I don't think I was funny. I was always animated, but that didn't mean that in school, I was not the class clown people automatically, you know, go to that no way. And I will never forget, I've never said this out loud. When I was a freshman, I moved from the city, I was a city kid and we moved to the suburbs. I went from Greek Perlfield School to a high school that had 2,000 kids. I was the only Greek and there was one person that was half Greek and although he said to me, I was raised Catholic and he walked away from me, really, really snobbly. So with that said, with that said, I don't know what possessed me. I had made a few bunch of good friends to run for treasurer of my class, which is again, hilarious. I went from this little Greek Perlfield School to this huge high school. Anyway, I remember we had to give a speech about a campaign speech and everybody got up, you know, whoever was running for president, that's in that end. There was a girl that ran against me for treasurer and she got up and she grew up there and she was an a student smart and she was very sexy. I mean, even in the ninth grade she had this like, wispy, almost like a Marilyn Monroe voice. She's like, "My hair's a hair, whatever." And then I will never forget I got up there and I was fainted. I didn't even know what to say. I was shaking. I didn't even know what I was saying. And I got, you could hear a pin drop, a pin drop. And I would say, let's say there was 600 kids in my class, I think I got 30 votes and she got the rest. And it was funny because later on, I couldn't even hate her. She turned out to be a really, really nice girl and I really liked her. So I think that helped me get over it, you know what I mean? But I think it stuck with me. And again, I never, I don't think about it that often, but now we're kind of talking about it. And I just kind of, I want to bring it back to like when I was young because I want you to know how this was not me. But again, watching TV, watching those rows, watching the variety shows, watching late night, all that stuff definitely had an influence in me. And actually my dad is very funny. And everybody's little flippant and sarcastic, in their own way. Greeks are funny people for the most part. Some of them don't realize how funny they are. So I didn't know any of that. But I will say for me, and I think in general, in order to be a stand up comic, first of all, it takes an enormous amount of time to find your voice. And to find the writing. And I'm always writing. We're always doing. And all these new jokes start out as not great and you massage it or you cut it. Or at some point, you have to let it go if it's really not working or turn it around. I've twisted so many things. I've had all prem, usually what happens is the jokes start out to be really long. And by the time you're done, it's 10 words. I will say audiences, the attention span of an audience, certainly in today's environment, is that of a mosquito. It's about 30 seconds, maybe 35. So you do have to kind of get to something quickly or whatever you're saying, you better hold that the audience's interest. It better continue to be interesting. As far as writing, the great thing about taking this class, and again, had I not taken the class, none of this would have happened, because I wouldn't have known what to do or anything, was that they do try to help you with a structure. The punchline goes at the end. The funny things in threes. Just, there are certain guidelines and things, again, getting to something quicker. If it's a longer bit, that punchline better be really, really, really funny. Having a thread, the segues. It is a true art form. And I mean, it's like being a chef, putting all these ingredients together. And here I am 20 years later, fast forwarding. So I just did, right before we went on, I just did a Zoom show that set and some of my cadence was different from on Sunday, I did a show for a mother and daughter tea party group in Westchester. And then the set that I did at Broadway Comedy Club on Sunday night had a different rhythm. Some of my jokes are the same. Sometimes I call it "spice it up," which I mean by cursing. We're using naughty words. When I do a Greek show, a Greek show for our churches or a Hellenic organization, those are really clean. It takes a long time, and it also takes a lot of crappy shows and a lot of bombing to get to where you need to go. - Great point because I wanted to ask, what do you do when a joke doesn't land with the audience? Comedians, I think, draw from their own personal experiences when they're writing jokes. It's very much like their own stories and their own life experiences that they're quite self-deprecating about. And that's, I think, what makes it funny. They're trying to relate to the audience in some way or they're trying to make the audience feel like they're relatable. And so if you're being super vulnerable and you share a joke with the audience and it doesn't land, like how do you take that? 'Cause you can't hide from your reaction. It's live, you're in front of an audience, they're watching you. That's really terrifying. So what do you do in that moment? - Standard comedy is you, the audience, and the mic. That's it. So it is the most raw art form. There is. So at this point now, because I consider myself a vet, if something doesn't land, I will either make a joke about the fact that it didn't land and wind up saying something funny about the fact that it wasn't funny, or I'll just move on. Depending on what's my timing, where I wanna go, what I know the next joke is gonna be, that's gonna sort of go back to that one. It really all depends kind of on in the moment. When I was more of an inexperienced comic, when I was five years into it, seven years into it, I just tried not to get rattled and move on. So now, not that I love it, but I don't get rattled. I know that I'm gonna go onto something else or I'm gonna make fun of it or I'm gonna say something or I'm gonna now do a tag for that or something. One of the things a lot of us say is, oh, that was so much funnier in my head. But so it happens, it happens. I'm confident enough to know that my whole set isn't going to be horrible. There's this one blip and I know when I get to something else, it'll be fine. So I'm confident that I'm gonna get out of it. I don't even think about it as much as, obviously, I used to. But you have uncomfortable moments. And certainly I've done so many different comedy shows and so many different venues. I've done places, let me tell you where one of the worst places is, when a restaurant decides, and I won't, of course, do this anymore, or I ask a billion questions before I do it, when a restaurant decides to like throw comedy. So they just have people coming to eat. And then they've got a comedy show, but the people that came to eat didn't come for your comedy show. They came to eat, like, you know, not everything. It's gotta be set up so people know they're coming to see comedy. Because when you force feed it down, people throw, that's like the worst. So I've had, you know, those experiences. But I just kind of want to get back to you and you were saying, you know, funny in this, in that I've been on shows where sometimes people try to mentor teenagers, you know, you know, as comics and stuff. I don't find 15-year-olds, you know, in terms of stand-up funny. They should be performing for their age group, you know, in 20-year-olds, because you just don't have enough life experience. So I think that comics that are like 30, not that there aren't any in their 20s that aren't funny, but, you know, I think it's a type of thing that, you know, you really will hit your stride. Like even if you're doing it in your 20s, it's not going to be until your 30s where it's going to, it's going to like land. I think you have to have life experience. Very, very, very few stand-ups came out of the gate, very funny. The one that comes to mind is Eddie Murphy. I think Eddie Murphy was Eddie Murphy by the time he was 18. You know, that's very, very, very, very unusual. You know, Chris Rock, Chris Rock was very young when he started. But, you know, his first special was when he was like 32-33, but he had been doing it since he's 15. You know, so people don't understand Seinfeld too. Seinfeld didn't get Seinfeld till he was 35. And he had been doing comedy since he was 20. So you got to put in the time. Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, I get a lot of comedians that just pop up on my TikTok on my like, for you, page on TikTok. And they're in their 30s, I would say, are late 20s. And the comedy bits that they're showing up on my feed feels relatable because I think it's to a very specific and targeted audience, like 20-something-year-olds. And so from the, what feels like long life experience I've had, but it's really short when you put it into perspective of like, the entirety of what my life will be. And, you know, their points really resonate. And I think it also has to do with the TikTok algorithm. Spitting out content, it knows I want to see. But in general, I would agree with you. Like the older the comedian, like the more life experience if they've accumulated, better content will arise from that because there's more that they can draw from. I want to make a quick comment because I know you brought up Chris Rock. And obviously, this is a very timely interview. An episode, whoever's listening, hopefully you watch the Oscars. And hopefully, you know what we're referring to when we talk about this. But that was a very heated moment. What happened, where Will Smith slapped almost punched Chris Rock. I know you posted something about this on your Instagram. I don't know if you want to share a little bit on my platform about what happened, your thoughts on that. And just kind of where there may be a fine lot, you know, just tension within like the comedy space. You know, can we talk a little bit about what happened there in that dynamic? Oh, absolutely. I have no problem saying what I think about it because it was so appalling. It was so disgusting. Obviously, like everybody else, I was out at Broadway comedy club, so I didn't watch it live, but I recorded it. Plus, I wanted to see the hosts, Amy, and Wanda are stand-ups. So I definitely wanted to see how they were gonna do and I thought they did great. But, and then I was on the subway, and I'm no, looking on my Instagram, and Facebook, and I was like, "Did you see that? Was that real? Was that?" I came home and actually, I didn't even bother going to, 'cause it was still recording, you know, going to the DVR, so I asked my husband, looked it up and kept up, right up on YouTube. And of course, we kept rewarding, and rewarding. Like, did I just see what I can't believe it? At first, I thought it was fake, and then it was like, "No, no." And then to see Will's face and the cursing, that is very scary. And I felt, first of all, for Chris, you can see after he got smacked, the stunned look on his face, and his brain was just going, like, do I just, you know, like, I think he was just trying to calm himself in his brain, because as a comic, he could have buried him verbally, right then and there. That would have been the end. Will Smith would have left crying, if Chris Rock was able to unleash himself. But the guy kept his composer, big kudos to him. And by what Will did, I felt now, emboldens, obviously not everybody, but there are crazies out there, they're gonna feel like that's gonna be okay. And we're already facing cancel culture, saying something people don't like. Comedy is absolutely subjective. I absolutely get that. I, some people, listen, some people love me, some people can't stand me. I get that, I understand that. Some people think I'm hilarious, I'm so, some people don't. I get that, that's totally fine, that's life. But to have him do, to get up out of his seat, to approach the stage, even approaching the stage, is not a good thing. That's, you know, that's happened. And by the way, for the majority of us that do shows all over, and I do a lot of private stuff as well, and fun razors and all this, I don't know who's in the audience, and, you know, there's no security, there's no one there to protect me. I mean, I'll be completely honest with you. I've been to some clubs, there's no security, there's nobody to be found. So, so that's a whole other thing. I know that there's gonna be copycats, because with everything crappy, there's always these stupid copycats. And even if one comedian gets hurt, that's one too many for that reason. Now, as far as Jada and her jalapesha, and I don't give a crap, okay? I'm so done with her, but honestly, both of them, not that I paid that much attention, but they were always popping up in the news, the marriage, the this, the that. First of all, you cannot be a private person, and then tell everybody every friggin' thing that's going on in your life. That's not private, okay? I like Jennifer Lopez, but she does this, I'm a private person. You're not a private person, okay? You're far from a private, stop saying you're private. You're not private. Jada and Will, just as an aside, like they've just become very weird, you know, that the table talk thing, and then they talked about, you know, she cheated, he cheated, this and that. Aside from the fact that, why are you telling everybody? Who cares? But, so, you kind of put yourself out there, but anyway, they're sitting there, they're in the front row, and he says something, and if you notice, also Chris says, "Jada, I love you," like he didn't go mean, he thought he was making a joke. I'm pretty sure, although I don't know this for sure, the academy generally has to review all of the jokes, so I don't know if that was an improv too thing, or that they said that it was okay. That I don't know, that is definitely a question, and I thought that was gonna really matter that much. And we all saw, he first will laugh, and then he looked at her, and then something triggered him, and he went up there, and let's mention, Will Smith is six four, Chris Rock is like five two, so that's a whole other thing. I don't know how hard, I mean, we all heard the smack in the microphone. I mean, that was really, that was like, that's jarring. I can't even look at this anymore. So my first concern is for my brethren, our safety, and for people that don't, not gonna like a joke, and gonna think that it's okay to just approach the stage. And heckling is one thing, but, and I'll tell you what I do with that too. So listen, I am not a controversial comic. I really just wanna make everybody happy. That's my purpose. But I'm not gonna say, I love going in the audience, and I always like poke fun and make fun. And I have a pretty good gauge in seeing if somebody is annoyed and not. And I'm not this like huge, big, scary person, scary looking person, and I always try to say it with like a wink and stuff. So, so from my own experience, I really haven't had too much. I haven't had really any too much of that. I've had people talking, but I'll just blow through it, because my feeling is, that's not my responsibility to go shush people. That's who's ever running the show. But with that being said, certainly will had every right, not to like the joke, or she had every right, not to like the joke, but that, that's not even national TV. That's international TV. That video is gonna stay there forever and ever and ever. Chris Rock is gonna be fine. He's gonna come up with some material. He's gonna do, I'm not worried about him per se, as a, you know, his career, and all that. Both these guys have more money than you and I will ever see in our lifetime. Even if nobody hires Will Smith again, he's fine. But what should have happened is after the party, you take it outside, hey, you just might, whatever, whatever happens happens, but to do it there, it's just not the way that you do it. I know Tiffany Haddish said something about, oh, that was great, he defended his woman, which I'm very disappointed. I don't know her. She has a great career, God bless, but, but you're, you're a comic, although she's very connected to Will and Jada. And I think she's part of that road trip. So I wish she just didn't say anything, 'cause that like upset me too. It's like, every comic for the most part has, you know, has said that is, it was awful and it was disgusting. And I do not think that Will Smith should get his Oscar taken away. As pissed off as I am, I don't, because he did that work and, you know, I just don't. I just think one thing had nothing to do with the other. What I got out of that is he had a very good feeling that he was going to win the Oscar and he was not gonna miss that moment. And he got his moment. And as a matter of fact, in some ways, it kind of worked in his favor because he was really slaubing. I mean, I'm not quite sure how he would have felt at enough, they not had that, but he was really slaubing and he used it. And the fact that everybody got up, I mean, standing ovation, I mean, okay, that's fine. He got a plow as I get back, like standing ovation, like that really pissed me off. And Will Smith is ego is so big. He speaking of Eddie Murphy, although he's a great comedian, but I remember Eddie Murphy being mad because he didn't get the Oscar for Dream Girls. And if you remember, he left the Oscars after his category. Will Smith is still pissed off that he didn't get he didn't get the Oscar for Ali. I'm totally convinced of that. So he's already has like a chip on his shoulder as it is. It's a shame. Will Smith is very talented. He's got a lot of great work, men in black, pitch. I mean, he's very funny. I can't take that away from him. And I'm not saying his whole body of work should be a race for that, but it was, I want to see Will Smith come out and go, what I did was effed up and don't you dare do that. I regret it. Like I want to see that remorse, but what we see are pictures of him dancing with his Oscar. So it's not good. Yeah, it's clearly you have very strong opinions about this as you should, especially being a comedian. And I think, yeah, the primary issue or I think thing that might scare comedians in the future on top of cancel culture, like you mentioned, is now like their threat for their safety, like a safety concern. That's really scary. And now I feel like comedians are like, okay, how far is too far with my jokes? Like is this gonna really piss off a crowd? Is this really gonna piss off someone in the crowd? Now there's like this precedent, it feels like that's been set from Will's behavior, which is scary. And I agree, I think it was wrong for him to do that. And you mentioned something about Chris Rocks, like demeanor completely changing. Like you could see the wheels returning and he was like, I thought he did a really good job of calming himself in the moment. Like maybe he was just too stunned to do anything, but like that was a really great example of really thinking fast on your feet and doing something like whatever he did to like tap back into like that sympathetic nervous system or I'm always forgetting which one is fighter flight. But tapping into the non fighter flight, the one that calms him down, and just taking a moment to recollect himself and not even really address that and move on. That was really admirable to see. And it's unfortunate that will something triggered in him that just violence erupted. That was just really, really frightening. And I was stunned. My TV went blank. And the audio stopped working 'cause I think the US censored it. And I was like, wait, what's going on? I was watching with my parents. It just was, I Googled immediately, what just happened at the Oscars. And then there were a million Google searches what just happened at the Oscars. So it was very crazy. And thank you for sharing your perspective 'cause I find it very interesting to see, to hear the more elaborate version behind the Instagram post that you shared. But pivoting a little bit away from that whole disastrous event at the Oscars, I wanna talk a little bit more about the relationship between comedy and mental health because like we talked about earlier, comedians draw from their own life experiences. And there's an element of self-deprecating jokes to humor, the ways of just making light of fairly serious situations. And I think that's a way to actually process experiences and move past them. So I'm wondering in your life, where you draw your inspiration from in your comedy and how has this creative endeavor that you've tapped into helped you with your own mental health and to process certain experiences that you've had in your life? - It definitely has allowed me to have a voice for myself and like I said, and not to sound old Pollyanna, but really to make other people happy. And I delved into a standup comedy. I took that class and everything in like 98, 99. And then a couple years later, 9/11 happened. And I was working downtown and I was walking to work when it happened. Right, I was right on that plaza. And not to go into all the details, but obviously all horrendous. And I was, I mean physically I was fine, thank God. And that was, but as, I mean, you don't remember, but for all of us that do, it was just such a dark, dark, dark, dark time. And a year later, I went, nine months later I tried to go back and do some standup. And again, I was still really at a lower level and you know, at a elementary level. And I couldn't do it. And then finally like, I don't know, a year, it was probably like until 2003. And then I went someplace and opened Mike or something. And I'm like, you know what, this is a dream. And I just saw how life was so short. Like, you know, one minute you're walking to work or one minute people are at their desk, the next minute gone. So it was definitely a moment of, - That makes it great. - Like, oh my, we don't know. We don't know what the next minute is going to bring. And it doesn't have to be obviously something of that magnitude. And then I made a commitment to try it, to just give it my all. 'Cause I never wanted to say I didn't try. And that's when I went more full force. And then later on, I joined the writing group. And you know, I was just out. I mean, I had to go out at night, obviously. You know, you meet other comedians. There's no human resources, by the way. I mean, you just gotta go out to clubs and rooms and wherever they're doing comedy and meet other people and talk and did a lot of networking things. And so I definitely think that having had that experience and just other things that I've had, you know, obviously in my own life and, and, you know, deaths and disappointments and whatnot, it definitely helped me because I felt like it was the one thing, even though I complain about how I want to be booked more and stuff, but it's, the one thing about standup is their my words and that I felt like I have, that's the one thing I have control over. Even like in acting, I mean, it's somebody else's words, there's a director, there's production. I mean, it really, to be a standup, it is one of the truest forms of the entrepreneurial spirit 'cause it is your own business, you're selling you, there's no product, you're the product. So there's so much that goes into it. So back to mental health, I mean, I'm not gonna, you know, I haven't had any serious mental health issues, but I certainly have had anxiety. I've had the hyperventilation where I have to like blow into a paper bag, you know, I've had panic attacks. I mean, I know all about that part of it. Full disclosure, you know, went to therapy and it was great and when you find a good therapist, I also had a few that, you know, I mean, if you don't connect, it's never gonna work, but I had a couple of good ones and it was great. And it definitely, you know, just helps you just, you know, think things through and think before you act and sort of think before you say or think before you do things. You know, it's called analysis for a reason. And I realize you can go to the all, you know, to the other extreme and you know, you gotta live in the moment too and have a little fun. So again, it's taken me a long time, but you know, you get a balance. I've made a lot of bad decisions in my life and you know, to forgive yourself for those and not repeat them. And so I definitely think it's helped me. It's helped me because it was something that I really wanted to do. And that when you do something, you really want to do it, it makes you feel good and doesn't matter what it is. I mean, if you like to paint, pain, if you like nature, you know, we, most of us work very hard and traditional jobs and a lot of people are in jobs they don't like, but the money is good and I know I get all that. And if you love your job and it's an office job, that's great too. But you know, you need like other things, you know, you need, you know, you need an outlet, whether it's cooking, whether it's being with your family and doing things. So I think it's definitely helped and but it's comedy. And we can, comedians can be a bit morose. And I am very self-deprecating. And I can, I've definitely gotten very dark, not in a dangerous way, but just in a, you know, like now it's detrimental to me. And again, you know, you gotta like pull yourself out of that, you know, and that's why I think you can't put all your eggs in one basket, you know. I think the best life lived my opinion and my experience is a balanced life, you know, family, friends, fun, work, things that satisfy you, you know. And again, that doesn't mean you're doing a thousand things at one time. My biggest problem in life is the focus because I do have a thousand things going on. And I jump from thing to thing to thing. That's the thing that I've been trying to learn for a long time, trying to write a book, I'm trying to write a play about my great-grandmother, you know. And I just like I jump from thing to thing to thing. But I think it's, I think when you, when you have that and you really feel satisfied. And again, not every show is a great show. Trust me. I have gotten it in the car. I remember doing a bridal shower. It was actually for a Greek woman, mother, that hired me. So it's gotta be like seven years ago. And it was awful. It was awful. And nobody left. They were talking. And it was crazy because the mother was like, my daughter saw you and she thought you were like the funniest thing and she wants you, like her shower. You know, so was that kind of a set up? And the mother was passed and she's like, you, you weren't loud enough and you should have brought a microphone. It was crazy. I got in the car and I, I bought, I bought my eyes out. So, you know, but again, this is life. It's not always going to be rainbows and sunshine, you know. I do, I do do this thing. I'm pretty good at this. Even like when I'm really pissed at somebody, I'm really upset, I really, I try to give myself, especially with the shows, with the shows in particular. I give myself a 24 to 36 hour pity party. I allow myself to have that. I complain, I bitch, I mone, I curse, I give everybody the matty, I do the whole thing. And then it's almost like a cleanse. But I allow myself that. I don't suppress it immediately, because that doesn't work for me. And then I'm pretty good at moving on. You know, like I still remember it, of course, but I don't, it's the dwelling. And it's the sucking of energy from you. I'm glad you put that up because I think I've realized the value of actually just letting yourself experience whatever emotion like you have in that moment. It does you so much better to recognize it, not judge that it's there and just let it be there, feel it, express it, whatever you have to do, and get it out of your system. Like let it come out and then take the time to heal from it and move on, like don't dwell in that. Give yourself whatever it is, 24 to 36, 48 hours. Give yourself that time period, recognize how you're feeling, honor that. Respect the that you're feeling that way, but recognize that feeling's not gonna be permanent, feelings come and go. And the best thing you can do for yourself is to fully feel that, and then recognize, okay, I'm getting this out of my system. Do I need to keep staying in this space right now? Do I need to dwell in this head space? Like I can move past it. And I think it's really healthy to just let that be a therapeutic outlet. Like recently, I had a really stressful experience and I saw someone I didn't wanna see. And I went home that night and I was like, so emotional. And then I just, you know, the next day I was like, okay, I felt that way. I'm not gonna like judge myself or feeling that way 'cause it's normal. And then I'm just gonna move past it. And I think that's a really healthy thing that I would hope so, a healthy thing to do. But, you know, you braised so many great points, Alan, and I'm really fascinated by what you're doing because I am not a comedian in the slightest, nor will I ever tap into comedy 'cause that's not something that I think I would be good at. But you'll be surprised. You'll be surprised. (laughing) With the creative writing part, I think, is it's really where I can connect because for me, creative writing was always very therapeutic. And it was just, it was a way for me to process how I was feeling and it's still something I do to this day, just journaling and it's taken different forms for me. And I think that just the act of getting pen to paper and figuring out how you wanna translate what's in your head to something that's like concrete. In it of itself allows you to realize things you didn't know existed. And I think there's a lot of crossover between that creative process and how you craft a joke and how you perform a joke in front of other people. So it's something really fascinating to me and something that I feel like I can also relate to. But aside from all of that, Ellen, we're kind of coming towards the end of this interview and I feel like I could ask you a million more questions. So we're probably gonna have to do a part two. But the one question I wanted to land on this episode with is something that I ask every single guest that comes onto the show. And it's about happiness, wellness, mental health. And you know, you mentioned throughout this interview that comedy you wanna make other people feel good. You know, it's something that brings you joy and happiness. And I think, you know, there's the science around humor. It reduces pain, it reduces stress. And Dorfens are a natural hormone that reduces pain naturally in our bodies. And comedy and humor, when you get someone to laugh, they feel good. It's an infectious energy. So my question to you is besides comedy, what is something that brings you a bit of joy and endorphins in your day-to-day life? - I love working out, not because it's not a pain. And I gotta take an hour. And but I think it's very important. And whatever you're working out is, whether it's a walk, whether it's a stretch, you know, whether it's weights, whether it's high intensity, I think it's very important that you get. And this is, yeah, I mean, you know, obviously again, I'm older than you are, but I wish I had my working at discipline when I was younger. 'Cause I think just physically, my body soul, it's all connected. And to get your just blood moving, you know, and get that energy going, I think that that definitely does something to you. As far as get happiness, look, I'm like everybody else, you know what I mean? I love to be around friends and family. People family will not fight. But you know what I mean? For your friends and good time and dinners. And I mean, yeah, I'm a little obsessed with food because I'm short and I'm Greek and you know, it doesn't end well sometimes. Everything goes to the bottom, but when I'm sitting and really like not letting go of that, when I'm enjoying that, I love to eat. I mean, you know, it's our DNA. - Me too, and there's so many great Greek restaurants in New York, like they're just a million places that I could go to often. (laughs) - Yeah, no, I mean, so, you know, that, I mean, that, I sound simple. Sometimes it's just the simple stuff. I mean, I love going to the theater, of course. I love seeing a good show. We don't travel as much as I would like. And obviously the last few years kind of put a kibach on that. But, you know, traveling is great, exploring different places. I mean, my challenge with all of this is that unfortunately my mind is always going with, I gotta do this. I gotta do that. I didn't do this. I gotta do that. I gotta reach out to that, you know. So, again, it's all work and process, you know, trying to get better. I'm trying to like give myself a day, or, you know, whether it's a Sunday, or the thing is with stand-up comedy, a lot of Saturdays, I work. But like tomorrow, I'm not. So, I wanted to like give myself the day. You have to allow yourself the day to just let it go, let them to do list go. And whatever's gonna be, you know, is gonna be. Sometimes we're just going to Whole Foods for an hour, you know, it's fun. - Yeah, going to Whole Foods is always fun. Like I never want to leave when I'm at Whole Foods 'cause I want to eat my way through it. And like I also just love grocery shopping oddly. So, there's a million amazing things at Whole Foods. - Well, yeah, no, I totally, and they have like these great looking desserts. But sometimes you're, to me, kicking in your endorphins could be about just like simplicity. Some just something, you know, could be cutting ginger. You know what I mean? I think I do meditate. I meditate every morning. I meditate 20 minutes before I get out of bed. I not create at the one later on in the day, but the one before, 'cause it helps you again, gather your thoughts. I know all this is time, it's like, "Oh, it's got the time for this." You gotta make the time. Even if it's five minutes to just lay in bed with your, but, you know, your vizoron to just close your eyes to just get your thoughts together. It like, you know, gives you a good foundation. But, you know, my thing, I can find the biggest joy in, of course, you know, being on stage, or it could be completing a writing project that I had. I mean, I did this children's book. I mean, when I got the hard copy of this children's book, I have it right here. I have it right next to me. Thank you, thank you. That was a great, you know, that was a great joy to see that, you know, to fruition. I do wanna say one thing, 'cause you have a younger audience. So when you're in your 20s, I know you think you're infallible and you can do this and you can do that. And I'm gonna do something that's gonna sound so mama bear. But, you know, listen, I like a glass of wine like the next person, you know, but there's a lot of substance abuse and there's a lot of stuff going on. And I'm gonna tell you something, kids, all right? I, you know, I see it, it doesn't end well. So that stuff is just poison in your body. I'm not saying again, have a beer, have a glass of wine, have a cocktail, that's all well and good. But I worry, you know, we live in New York City. I smell a lot of, a lot of stuff going on. It's not good, it's not good. It doesn't end well. I'm just telling you right now, you heard it here first. It doesn't end well. So all this to say, you do have to take care of yourself. You have to take care of your body. You gotta eat as well as possible. Not again, not be militant about it. But you gotta do the whole whole whole whole whole. Yeah, I mean, like you said earlier, it's about finding balance. I think it's all about finding balance. And right now is definitely a difficult period of time in your 20s, 'cause there's a million things being thrown at every one of us and trying to find our way and trying to make a name for ourselves and this and that. And it's really overwhelming. And it can be easy to fall into bad habits and bad patterns. But I think it's a great reminder that you share around just really taking care of your body and your mind will go a long ways in life. So let us be reminded by that. Ellen, it was just absolutely so fun having you as a guest on my show. Where can my listeners find you on social media? Instagram and it's hooked into Twitter at Greek Chick Comic. Also Facebook, I have a Facebook page, fan page, Ellen Carous Greek goddess of comedy. You can go to my YouTube page. My website is Ellen Carous.com, ELLE and K-A-R-I-S.com. And I also have my podcast, which you were a guest on last week. And I loved it. It was so great. I got such great feedback. It's called Carous Comedy Corner. If you type in my name and it's on iTunes and all the other platforms, it's also on my website. I've been doing it for seven seasons. That also I love, brings me great joy. Sometimes I have fantastic guests like yourself. Sometimes I do, like last week, I do a rant. So I'll do like a half hour show of just me and I will just rant. I use a lot of saucy words. I say whatever I want. It's my podcast. There's no FCC. And that's it. Those are my thoughts. Well, everyone absolutely has to go check it out and follow along on your social media sites so that people can go and actually see you perform stand up. So that would be a really fun experience. It's something I still need to do. And now I'm super excited for when I get to come and view your stand up shows. Thank you again, Ellen. It was just such a pleasure having you on the podcast. Thank you. [MUSIC PLAYING] Thank you for listening and remember to like, rate, and review this podcast on whichever listening platform you prefer. Don't forget to keep spreading in Dorfins. and find things that bring you endorphins every day. See you next time.