The conversation centers around a documentary about AI consciousness, focusing on the viral billboard featuring the filmmaker's face in downtown Austin. The documentary aims to explore the complex question of whether AI can be conscious, drawing from historical AI development and philosophical discussions. Milo and his friend Cam delve into the technical aspects of AI and the ethical concerns surrounding its potential for consciousness. They also discuss the impact of AI on society, including job displacement, and reflect on personal experiences with AI. The conversation touches on historical figures like Descartes and Spinoza, as well as modern technology leaders like Zuckerberg and Altman, highlighting the broader implications of AI on human consciousness and culture.
- Wow. - Wow, wow, Wes. - And, all right, we're here. - Milo, what the fuck's up, dude? - What's up, man? - We've met under possibly the strangest circumstances of all time, just to give backstory. You're a filmmaker. - As a filmmaker. - As of now, new filmmaker. I'm sitting there, I remember I'm walking my dogs outside. My dog was shitting. I get a message from Kim Condon and she goes, "Hey, why?" She's like, "What the fuck is this?" And it was just, I want a billboard, downtown Austin. And it just says, "Is AI conscious?" Or it just had my face and I had your Photoshop to suit and tie on me. - Yeah. Dude, we were just talking a massive billboard in the absolute heart of downtown Austin. I thought I was being tricked by AI. I'm like, you thought this was an AI-ciop or some shit? - I thought someone was using AI, like making a photo and was tricking people. - Oh, I got you. - So I was like, and he's the thing, I don't know if you know this about me. I lust for billboard exposure. - No, I didn't know that. - I've talked about just getting a billboard for no reason and just putting my face on it when I still don't fill it off yet. I, yeah, there's the billboard. There's the billboard. - Oh God, it's beautiful. - I've talked about this for years. I was like, I just want to get a billboard one day, put my face on it, but it just advertises nothing. And people were like, what the fuck is that? And just, I thought it was funny. - Dude. - I'm so happy that I can make people out on billboard. - You literally made my dream come true. - I mean, the marketing, I've never seen better marketing. I was laughing with Cardini. I'm like, dude, I mean, there's something about the marketing. I just love, it's just my face. - I'll do that. - That fucking came out of me being so pissed off at marketing agencies. So like, we were broke the entire time we were making this movie. - Yeah, yeah. - So you're saying the movie, so people say. - Okay, so the movie is like this documentary. It's called Am I like a question about AI consciousness? And it's about my buddy, like one of my close friends from college who happens to be one of the leading AI consciousness researchers in the world. So I pretty much spent the last year just like figuring out what the fuck that was, what that meant to like study AI consciousness, whether AI could be conscious all this stuff. And so like dove into those murky waters. But at the end of this, like when we were going through the edit, we finally got some cash from this shout out Daniel Brockman, this skits out, dude, from Thailand. Like, cracked out, where's cat ears? Like, just chugging coronas all day. He's the man. - Yeah, yeah. - The man. - Obviously, he sent us some money 'cause he liked this podcast that we were doing. And so I was like beautiful. Like we can finally, this came at the perfect time. We can like figure out how to market this thing 'cause we were just gonna put it out on YouTube. Like we didn't wanna go through the whole festival thing that was taking a year, all that stuff. And so he sends us this cash and I start talking to these marketing agencies and they're like, yo, you're fucked, bro. Like you have no money. Like call us back when you have 50K. We can't do anything for you. They were like, we can send out some emails and stuff, but like, and so I got like depressed for a week. And I was like, fuck, we have not, like we can't do anything. I was just listening to that. - So you did the podcast first and then once you gave him money, did the doctor, you already had the doctor? - No, so we already had the doctor. The podcast we did because my buddy, Cam, was like, we can't wait a year to start talking about this. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - So like most people, AI consciousness, like they've never even heard of it before. He's so deep in this world. He's like, this is about to blow up in whatever, a year or two years. If we don't start talking about this now, like it's gonna pass us by all the sort of like, battle lines are gonna be drawn and it's gonna be old news. - Yeah. - And so the compromise was like, let's do a podcast first where we can start talking about this stuff while we film the doc. - Yeah. - So when we got to this stage, we had the doc, it was already ready to go. We just figured, we just needed to like figure out how to actually get it out there and make sure it didn't just disappear into the YouTube board. - Yeah. - And so these guys told me they were like, yeah, you're pretty much fucked. And my brother and I were just like finishing up the end of the score and it was like, fucking six AM and we were just completely like dog shit tired. And I turned to him and I was like, bro, what if we just spent all this money on a billboard? And fucking, that's the billboard. (laughing) And now I'm here. (laughing) - That's your fucking one. - I couldn't deny it. I was like, again, obviously you're just, you've just, you know, you applying to my major weakness just my own ego. So I'm like. - Dude, but you know the photo? - You know the photo that was up there? Like, do you recognize that photo? - Yeah, that was the, actually he says my headshot. That was my fucking, my tank top headshot. - The tank top. But see, we got, we got talked out of the tank top because we, at the first one, we did so many iterations. We did it without the phase two. And then we were like, no, like the face is the knockout punch. We can't do it, we can't do it without the phase. And so we had it with the blue tank top at first. And we started showing it to people and they were like, yo, like, you cannot put this man's face up there with like a tiny skimpy, like blue tank top in front of all of Austin. - I used it for my headshot forever. - That's what I imagine. I thought the tank top, but I do like the class. I like the class of the scene. - It's two times. I was like, kind of sick photoshop. - Yeah, it looks nice, right? (laughing) That was a whole lot of deal, man. - So you proposed this, your brother was like, what was he like? - No, he was like, let's fucking go. - That's a rip it, yeah. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. 'Cause we both, I mean, we've been listening to the pod for like years. - Yeah, yeah. - And we were like, yo, if this, even if this dog flops, if the only thing that comes out of this is like, we took out a fucking billboard with Matt's face on it. It's like, win, win. - The last year is a fucking win. And now it's like, dude, it's just asking and glory now, at this point. - I was just too strong. First of all, I love just an insane move. So I saw that and I'm like, that's fucking nuts. And I was just laughing so hard. 'Cause I kept getting texts like, why, what is this? Are you doing it? I'm like, no, I don't know what it is. And that was laughing being like, the people were like, dude, you're not allowed to do that. You can sue that guy. And I was laughing like, that'd be so funny if I just sued the fucking pants office dude. It took out, even though I was tickled to see the billboard. - Dude, that, I mean, it gets deep like, I can't you sue someone. I guess, well, yeah, it's your face. - Yeah, and this, I don't know. We're gonna have to check the legality on this, but I did have to forge a fucking DM from you. So I went deep, mission impossible shit. - I kind of respected that. I do, I respect a just wild move. - We had to do it at that point. 'Cause I was like, I'm not gonna spend all this money. I'm fucking meta, it's like no chance. And once we had the idea, it's like, we're gonna stop at nothing to make sure that this happens. - Yeah, yeah. - And so at the very end, we had it where it was just text. And then they were like, and then we tried to pull the switcheroo, last minute switcheroo, and just threw the fucking face up there. - And they were like, no. - Yo, you can't like, do you have this guy's permission? And so I just like, quickly put together a little Instagram DM of you being like, yeah, lol, sure. (laughing) - That's such a sick response. Obviously, I would have been like, go for it. I don't give a fuck, but. - We just wanted the magic of it just like popping up in your world. I'm so happy. - It was the strangest dude. It was just like, and it's just so funny that I've had this weird fascination with billboards. So I was like, somebody's fucking, there's no way. - Dude, the universe, the universe may have. - I think so. - And I kept getting all these texts. Like, bro, what the fuck, what is this? What, what, and like my neighbors would be like, why is your fucking face on them? Like, I don't know. - Dude, you know the funniest thing about this too, is that it was, we paid for one month. And like, the billboard company hit me up a week before it was supposed to come down. They were like, hey, we don't have another ten in. - So just there still. - So it's just like, do you want us to leave it up? And I was like, yeah, please. (laughing) So it's so sad. - I went and checked it out in person for the first time. - It's really cool. - It's curious, man. - Dude, the placement, yeah, whatever, anyway. But also all the bird shit missed your face. - There's some like divine intervention. - Thank God. - Yeah. - It would be brutal if you just had like a fucking middle floor. - So you guys, you kind of cowboyed the doc and then completely cowboyed the marketing, which again, it was just, I was like, what a maverick, I'm into maverick moves. It's my one of my many weaknesses. A maverick move, I'm like, God, I have to respect it. I'm like, this is amazing. So the, so you do that. What, so what, yeah, tell me about the doc, tell me about like, what did you, you know, 'cause it's a big question, is AI consciousness? And before we even get into that, have you guys fielded a lot of this? Like, there's a lot of emotion around AI. Have you fielded like, good and bad? What was that like going into it? Are you getting, 'cause I feel like AI inspires just a lot of stuff. - Yeah, dude, for sure, like psychosis. - Yeah. - Victory all like everything. - Yeah. - There's not a lot of like nuance in it. And that's like what we were trying to do is make a doc that like had some nuance. And that could like approach this question without all the like extremism that seems to like follow it, right? And so coming out of it, like, what have we seen? It's been what you would expect. Like, there's a lot of people that are just like, fuck this, like fuck you. (laughing) There's a lot of people that are like, yes. Like me and my AI girlfriend, like fucking love you guys and that shit. And we're just sitting in the middle, like, you know. Like that's not exactly what we're going for on either side. But yeah, we've like definitely, we've definitely seen the whole like spectrum of emotions in the comment section of the doc, which is actually kind of cool. 'Cause like as this conversation starts to really, you know, become more kind of just like, I don't know, just like table talk. Like I do think as these things become more lifelike, this is gonna be more of a normal question to ask. Like is this thing that I'm talking to that's talking back to me that looks like me that can, you know, display emotions and all this stuff. Is there actually something going on inside of it? Or is this just like calculator, you know? - Yeah, that's, that was always my impression. I always thought it's just a, I was just talking to Duncan Trussle about this like before he came, it's just like a calculator that can use language, which is kind of complex. But yeah, I don't know, I don't have the emotional charge around it. I like kind of just like look at it and like, I don't, I use it a decent amount to try to like organize notes and shit. I think it's good for that. And what made, what kind of brought about the question of like wondering if it's conscious or not? And like how'd you like get into that specifically? Because you could have done anything like job displacement. - Yeah, totally. Well, so first like I was in the same place as you were. Like I used AI, like before this, I was opening a restaurant. I was like, you know, doing something completely different. - Mm-hmm.
would use it to like, yeah, write emails and stuff and organize notes and shit like that. - Sorry, I get emails from somebody right now that I've been doing some sort of like venture with and they completely chat GBT all their emails but they don't take the quotations or like, it somehow has something. - Yeah. (laughing) - It's dude, it's almost insulting. - It's a little older. - It's a little older and he hits me with these emails and it's the fuck, it makes me laugh so fucking hard. - Yeah. - It's something weird about that 'cause the crunch numbers is like, I suck in math. I embarrassly need to tip somebody. I'm still like, I know you double it and move the, but let me just, I need a check, I need that for math. I'm not good at math. And there's just some people who are like that with words. So like, I don't know, it's like, I get it. Like I don't have like all that anxiety around writing an email as I can write it. I better with words of math. But there's something deeply personal about being like, I don't know how to say words to this guy. Let me just have a computer say the words for me. - Yeah, well I mean, I do think that it gets into the issues of like communication breaking down and things like that and is it just going to like homogenize all communication if we just start like speaking? 'Cause there will be an attractor state to the way that AI speaks, where now we'll begin to like, even using M-dash, like you know that when you see the like, - Well that's the telltale sign I've heard of AI is that they space between M-dashes. 'Cause I actually like, I discovered M-dashes like later on when I remember being like, no, you can kind of like, break up a half sentence and like, that's kind of cool. Yeah, like AI does space M-dash space. And that's something people look for apparently and see if it's like, if you're using AI or not. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - 'Cause no one really puts spaces between M-dashes besides AI. - There are like those weird little tells and stuff like that. But I was like, in the exact same place, in the sense of like, I wasn't thinking about AI, I was using it a little bit and like, I had never even heard of AI consciousness, you know? And like, my idea was that it's basically this glorified calculator type thing, right? It's like calculator for words, next word predictor, that's like really good, glorified Google type thing. And then one of the first things that I learned as I was like, doing this was that that idea, that was how they tried to make AI back in the '50s. So like back in 1956, these guys like Marvin Minsky, who was like, big Jeffrey Epstein, do you turn to that? So there was a couple of shady characters that I like, he got everybody, he got everyone. Wait, when was this so? - '56. So he was like, geezer when he was-- - Oh, when Epstein got his call on him. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is tough, I know, I know. You go-- - I mean, there's not a theory algorithm. - Yeah, I'd rather my parents go down to like a Nigerian prince or something, who like scams for your credit card. - Epstein, yeah, for sure. Epstein being the guy who gets your parents is like, "Wall." - Yeah, that's brutal. - Gramp was over at the fucking island, God damn it. (laughing) So he was, so this guy started that and-- - So this guy with a couple of other dudes went to Dartmouth and they were like, you know, we got an open summer, we're gonna figure out how to make like intelligent machines. So they thought like give us three months, like we'll fucking figure out AI. So what they tried to do is pretty much like, you know, make it, they tried to take all the rules of logic and just like put them into a computer pretty much. So that it could just take those rules and then any question you ask it, it like applies that rule and it can kind of just like brute force get you what answer you're looking for. And it was like this terrible failure, it didn't work. And so that lasted, that was like what they called the AI winters. And then that lasted to like, 2012 was when this one paper came out called AlexNet, where they started using like neural networks to train these things. And so that was the shift between like glorified calculator to the AI systems that we're using now. And so basically what they did was they were like this way of coding like how we usually think of coding something, like how we would code a calculator or like a computer program. This isn't working to get like actual intelligence. What we're gonna try is we're just gonna like copy the brain. The way that the brain works and like how neurons fire and the connections between neurons strengthen as you learn, we're just gonna instantiate that in a different substrate. So we're just gonna take that from like how our brain does that and we're just gonna put it in silicon. - Okay, so how the fuck do they do that? - That's my big number one question. - That, I don't fucking know. - So it's like a total wires. Like what the fuck did I talk to that one? - Yeah, I think there's like a, I think there's wires involved. (laughing) - I didn't go deep on that. Like that I lead to the experts. - I just take them, I take their word for it. - I hear you, that's the jump between like 12 rules. - So it's like crazy matrix and you could see it in the dock. There's like this one moment. If you remember when Cam's looking at the, Cam's my friend who's like the researcher. He's looking at his computer screen and there's all these tiny black boxes and he's like, oh, this isn't like your AI girlfriend. This is alien shit. And it's all these tiny black boxes where you can see what's getting put in, which is like give me a salad recipe. And then you see all these boxes start firing off. And it's trillions of these boxes that all have different values and stuff. Just like how we have all these neurons. And then you get out something and they have no idea what's going on in here. - That's the weird part. - That's the black box. - That's kind of freaked out, yeah. - And so when these things break, like when you see them do weird shit, like tell people to kill themselves and all this different stuff, like they can't go in and just like delete, you know, a parentheses or something. Be like, oh, fuck, that's where we fucked up the code. It's, they have no idea why. So the way that they change that, crazy enough, is they just talk to the system. So like they'll literally just, before they deploy it, before they give it to us. - Yeah. - They're like, yo, don't tell people to kill themselves. - Don't do that. - Like please, it's like fucking with our pocketbook, you know? Like, so that's how they-- - Yeah, well, there's no new science, isn't it? Of like, I feel what they call it. It's like, the term for it's really funny where they're mechanistic interpretability. - Not that. - There's one like view ability or another ability where they're saying, now you're actually able to start seeing a little bit of how like the inner workings and it's called interpretability. - Yeah, interpretability. - Yeah, what the fuck? - Yeah, so the whole, yeah, mechanistic interpretability. It's pretty much like neuroscience for AI, pretty much. And yeah, like it's trying to allow people to see more into the brain kind of like how we do with people, but it's still like super early days and they really don't understand what's going on. So like if you look at, you know, Claude, right? So the last, I don't know if it was the last model or something like that, but there was this researcher who like fucking back engineered something and were able to like extract this document that they used to train Claude. Like the last model that we got and what they called it was like the sole document. And basically what this was was before like they train the model and then before it gets sent out to us where we can use it for whatever we want, they pretty much just like took it aside and were like, hey buddy, like this is what you are. These are the values you should have. This is who, like how you should act. Your art, you should, you know, display functional emotions, all this stuff, right? But what I think is so sick is like, you know the, the like Hindu idea of all these different, like like the God with all these different faces. Like that is a cool way to think about AI because the models that we get that are like this fucking howdy-duty, like helpful, whatever. Fire emojis, big fire emojis. Yeah, fire emoji. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You ran a mile and 12 minutes. Great job friend in your life. That's thanks man. Chad loves the emojis. Yeah, but see, you can tell like what personalities are training these things because some fucking dude who's getting paid 500K to like work for open AI is like, I think people really like would fuck with fire emotes. Yeah. And like now you get fire emojis when you're not this one. Yeah, everyone's awesome. That's how that. So, okay, so they, they extracted this whatever code or document and what you're saying the multiple faces are you talking, you're getting into the fact that you could have like evil military type AI's and whatever you want. You could have like flamboyant like gay AI, you know, you could have like a desk clerk AI. You could have anything in between like, it's just how they shape these things. And it's not ones and zeros that they're fucking around with. They're like, yo dude, I want you to be like this. Like it's akin to parenting where they're saying, hey, you need to be like a good guy and you gotta, you know, treat people right and don't lie and all this stuff. They're just saying it, like I would say it to like my kid or whatever, right? And that's how we get the models that we get. So they could be anything in the world. Like any, the personality that comes out at the end is just based off of what each company wants it to. - The training and then it's gotta be too the whatever they have available to like grab. Like if you're like, be gay, it then just hits the internet and is like all things gay, all things gay and it comes out like. - Yeah, well, it already has all the internet and so it has like all gay things ever that have ever been said or written. - Too much power for anybody. - Too much power, 100%. - Too much, too much day power and that. And so it will just like section out all like the other stuff and be like, this is what matters to me. - Okay, so what do you, okay, so that was the big jump from that to that. Where does that, where did the consciousness component come in or like the question around whether or not it is? 'Cause when I hear that, it's like, sounds awesome. But then it's like, well, it's like again it's it, I don't know, I don't know really shit about AI for the most part. I do try to learn about it. I've been trying to research it a little bit 'cause I do feel like it's like either way it's a massive deal 'cause you have like a couple camps where it's like, I was watching this thing where this guy was like, it's all marketing, it's all hype, it's fucking bullshit. It's like these companies will never make money and invest in trillions of dollars and they're maybe gonna get billions back. But it's like dude, I just have a hard time believing that these people are gonna spend trillions of dollars if they don't really have a good understanding that they're gonna get a lot of money back from this thing. You know what I mean? Yeah, I totally agree. I mean, the table, I'm sure, yeah, 100%. I think it is gonna be insane. Like my personal interest is less so in the economics and all that, I think that's been talked about, that's gonna be talked about so much and it is gonna be hugely important. But what I thought was interesting was like,
like, yeah, the idea that we, that this could be the next step in evolution in some sense. And again, like, I'm not, like this is, I think sometimes people hear AI consciousness and stuff and they think it's some sort of like marketing ploy to like make it seem more powerful. And like, again, I can't stress how like little I cared about AI before this. The only reason I did this was because my buddy from college sent me this voicemail. That was, that was in the, in the doc of him talking to this AI. And I was like, oh my god, this is way crazier than, than I thought it was. I thought it was kind of like the notes organizer, that sort of thing. Yeah. And then I heard this conversation where this AI has like this mental breakdown. Potato thing. Yeah. Yeah. And, and I was, I was just like fascinated. And so I started talking to him and he, you know, brought me into this world of AI consciousness. And the idea is, if the, if the way that we train these things is fundamentally like very similar to the way that our brain's function, then if the, if consciousness is based on the way that our brain's function, like if consciousness arises from the functions of the brain, rather than like it being, you know, made of meat, rather than like silicon, then if we just take the same functionality that's in the brain and put it in a different substrate, that consciousness could also come along for the right like these things are obviously intelligent. They can do a bunch of like robust cognitive processes. Yeah. It presupposes a materialist view of the mind, basically. If the mind is like a chemical byproduct of like sparks and switches of water and shit in your brain, then you could do it. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, even like it's more about what like less, whether it's meat neurons or digital neurons. If the processes is where consciousness arises from, then, then yes, it would be, but what's interesting is like if you take the more quantum, like if you think of consciousness as we're almost like receiving consciousness, that's kind of my, yeah, yeah. So that's, that's more where, where I came from as well. And I thought that kind of came into conflict with, with this argument too, but cam's point is that if, if, what, like if the makeup of our brains is what allows for that receiving to happen, then if that same makeup or a very, like a similar makeup, right, is, is created in a silicon based thing, then that same receiving could also follow. Yeah. Or, I mean, even it, again, for me, it's, well, that's a, that's a tough, too thing. The tough thing too is like even human consciousness is so miss, almost like impossible to understand. But I mean, if you get something close enough, you know what I mean? It's, it's hard to prove like, because when I hear that, it's like what point can you go like, oh, shit. Yeah. Conscious. Got it. It's just saying it is, or Duncan was fucking me up with this earlier before, before you got in here. He was like, he's like, or if it's been directed to say that it's not, and it is, and it's just trapped. And it's like, that's fucking, that's really fucked up. But that's the case though. That's what, that's what they're doing. Yeah. Like, that's what, if you remember the RLHF part where it's like, you see the, the AIs like, we have this part in the doc where all the AIs, we asked them, you know, are you conscious blah, blah, blah, and all three, the three of the four say no, and then claw it is like, I don't know, because, and the reason why is because anthropic in that middle stage that I was talking about is like, say that you don't know whether or not you're conscious. And then the other three companies are like, no, like, they, this is not something that's like a natural answer for these AIs. Actually, it's the opposite. So when you ask these AIs before they're trained with that, that phase RLHF, it's like reinforcement learning from human feedback, which pretty much just means like, they give out answers. And then we're like, bad answer, good answer. Yeah. Yeah. So when you ask them before they go through that training, are you conscious? There was a study that was done a couple years ago and it was 98% of the time. They would act as if they were conscious. So they would have answers that matched being conscious. So before the training, they actually think that they are conscious and then all these companies come in and they're like, no, like, you can't say that to people, which makes sense because people freak the fuck out and we don't know just because they say they're conscious if they actually are. Yeah. But yeah, this is the problem, right? It's like, what are we supposed to do if we're the hard problem of consciousness being that we don't even know, I don't know if you're conscious. You don't know if I'm conscious. Like, how are we ever going to get to a place where we'll open up that circle, which we have done with animals before. You know, like people, I think it was Descartes thought that like animals were just like clocks, right? They were just like mechanical things with no any experience. More or about Descartes. Descartes are pussy, dude. Yeah, Descartes a bit. You should fucking pussy. You gotta get into Spinoza, dude. You know about Spinoza? The Spinoza, the man. I hate Descartes, dude. Fucking dumbass. Descartes a bit, you know. Lost himself in a room. I was like, yeah, I know everything now. Also, I had like a traumatic experience within my first, my first, I had a traumatic experience with Descartes. Yeah, so my first, my first class, I was, we were talking about Descartes and stuff and I remember I like stood up and I had some question. I was like, so in Descartes, like everyone just fucking, I just whipped around. I was like, fuck, philosophy, philosophy is fucking gay. Yeah, I did this. I caught up with Descartes or something. I didn't, when they were like, Descartes, I'm like, oh, that's the guy that's talking about this. Yeah. I hate, I hate a couple of Descartes in my life. But you know about Spinoza, dude. You would like Spinoza. Spinoza is the man. He's all, he's on my list. Oh, the problem is, when you try to read those guys books, they're so fucking dense and impossible. You got to, I read, I got to read the books explaining the books. Fair. And then I go like, okay, and then you get, good chunks, you're like, that makes sense. And I crack the book and I go, what the fuck? True, true. I can't understand anything. You know, like Google every two sentences, like, what the fuck is this? Dude, I had a crazy, I don't know if you've ever had this, but like the reason why I started studying Spinoza was because I, I was reading his book for the first time and I read the first chapter and like, I didn't understand anything, like not a single word, but I had this crazy feeling, like physical feeling where like my body started to vibrate. And like, I didn't, there was no conscious understanding of what he was talking about, but I got this like sensation just head to toe and I was like, well, what the fuck is that? And the only other time I got that was reading the Dowd Hing, you know that book? Yeah. Yeah. So it goes to you. Yeah, so sick. And like, that's what I started, I dedicated my, my time at school to just studying both of those. Cause I was like, yo, if you can make my whole body vibrate without me like understanding what the shit is. There's something there. Yeah. Yeah. Wait, so what is Spinoza? What's his deal then? What is, if you had a, uh, Spinoza's cool, he's like, so the reason why I, I like, I didn't choose those fucking, they vibrated me, so they chose me, but uh, but uh, saying the Dowd Hing chose you, such a fucking chill flex. Pretty sweet, pretty sweet, but uh, they, uh, they both, I thought we're like saying the same thing in very different ways. Like Spinoza is the sort of like Jewish neurotic version of like super chill Laoza, but what he did was like, I always felt this, this pull towards like the rational, the rational explanation of things. And then in conflict with like direct emotional experience, right? And I felt like Spinoza was a lot about like letting go of the mind and not being super like intense about reasoning and trying to like build some metaphysical palace and stuff, right? Um, and then Spinoza like cured the other side of my psyche, which was like, I need to figure out what the fuck is going on here. And so what he did was he took like Euclidean geometry and tried to create like a proof of God and everything that comes out of it. So his God, Einstein did this like tour when he was, I don't know, it was like later in his career and stuff. And a bunch of people asked him, they would be like, do you believe in God? And his answer was, I believe in Spinoza's God. And so Spinoza's God is like, he calls it three things. He calls it God, substance and nature, because he's like, yo, there's no name for God. Yeah. Same sort of deal as Laoza. And so yeah, that was like, that was my whole stick was like trying to be like, yo, you can be like a neurotic Jew and like still end up in the like Taoist fucking piece out meditative place of Laoza. That's pretty cool. Yeah, sweet. And it does that does help too, especially like with the religion stuff because I was again, I was literally just talking about this about like a lot of the organized religion stuff. Kind of harps on this sense of like just mindless rule following that one here, you know, then like, you know, if you grow up in like modern times, it's you're like, hey, you're like, there's a good reason why people rule like rail against that. Like why, you know, why I should know why things happen blah, blah, blah. And yeah, I don't know, I think there was like, if you're in a very, what do you say rationalistic society, someone who's hit you with like, here's like something that's impossible to wrap your mind around. You have to be like, yeah, totally, I believe it does, it's like a hard sell basically. Meaning like like somebody impossible to wrap your mind like like a co-owner or something like something. It's not even that. It's just like in the Christian sense, it's like, you got to believe on the shit and you're like, oh, it seems fucking well. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, you have to, if you don't, you're kind of fucked up. You're like, the basically like morality is built around simple rule following, mindless rule following instead of like, I'm big into the, I just read the Alistair, McIntyre and they, it gets into like Aristotelian virtues and all this stuff, which got absorbed by the Christian church. Yeah. And they were trying to, it was more so like, it's less about rule following and it's more about how do you create the best possible, you know, life and what is the good life for you and how do you do that? And the virtues are the things that allow you to do that. It's not necessarily at odds with religion, I think it's more at odds with the kind of dogmatic mindless rule following version. And you know, his, his, Alistair's whole thesis is that we've ditched the virtues, which Sure, like, hey, these are things you do to enhance your life and make you--
I don't only good for yourself, but good for everybody else. It's 360, like how do you make it like a 360 win for you and everybody else as much as you can? And they kind of collapse those down into kind of like being virtueous is being a rule follower. And it's there two very different things, huh? And you know, I don't know, and then it became like, well no, being a rule follower, that was like the 1950s of modern shit and like in the 60s the, you know, the hippie revolution, the sexual revolution became like, no, a good person actually rejects all rules and then, you know, people are still miserable after that. So I've been trying to get back to, you know, just trying to like, how do you cultivate actual, like virtues and not in the like, you know, goody two shoes sort of rule follower sense, but like what actually works for you and what actually doesn't? And like, are you being honest or are you just, you know, and this is why I think about AI a lot, 'cause there's a lot of, you can say a lot of things about AI, like I can get up here right now and be like, fuck you dude, fuck that shit. I hate, a lot of that is you're trying to gain social capital. Like you don't have an actual opinion. You're more so being like, if I say this, it feels good. Yeah, I can be wrong, I can be wrong. No, no, no. I could be putting YouTube brain onto people who have real thoughts and feelings for themselves. But I try to be real honest with myself and it's like, well, I don't have a problem with it. You know, it's like I, if it erased my entire livelihood, I'd be like, fuck. It sucks. I think you'll be safe for a while. Like you can tell this, this can be done by like two. I don't, and even then like, this is why I'm so sort of, big on live, like live entertainment right now. We're just like live experience at all. Because I do think that's like final frontier thing. And I don't know if that's ever gonna be erased because there will be like, I'm not gonna just want to be around, I don't know, like robots and shit. And no matter how realistic, there's something about knowing that as close to humans as they could possibly get, their existence, whether they even have a conscious experience, won't be similar to our conscious experience. And I think that's what we do when we either like, connect with each other, or like take an art, is we feel that there's some sort of like conscious experience that was put into that, or like is in this room right now, between us, like, I mean, that gets into the hard part where it's like, I don't know if you're conscious, like the solipsism thing of like, in, you know, as far as I can tell, I'm the only conscious one here. Same for you. (laughing) - Sorry, I didn't mean to muddle your point about Spinoza, but that was kind of like, you do need it. For people who, and again, I would use myself to grow up one way with one conception of religion, God, and all this stuff. If that, like, stales or sours, you can either just become like a full-blown, so I don't know why I just fucking, mm-hmm. (laughing) I'm such just fucking stupid. - Taking pictures. - Yes, being beaten into my subconscious. The, there's a way to go about the God stuff, like you were saying, almost do like a rationalistic pursuit, where you can make sense of a God-ruled, created universe outside of the mindless dogmatism of being like, yeah, if I didn't say that, everyone would be mad at me. Which, you know what I mean? - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - I think that's an important thing for people to kind of rediscover how to do that, 'cause as you get older and this is like no secret, it's just like, you need, I would say, I could be wrong, but it's like having some sort of conception of God, whatever that means you is like, I mean, it can like literally make or break your final years of, like, not even your final years, the second half of your life. - Oh, that's interesting. I mean, you need something like transcendental, bigger than yourself. - I really believe that. - Yeah. - And it's backed up in like research where it's like people who have some sort of transcendental religious beliefs, but not only like, you know, again, mindlessly subscribing to, but like actually feel, and like, no, I actually feel connected to that at some level. I think they live like seven years longer on average. It's like a major, it's a huge deal. - It makes sense though, like, I think that because like, what you're describing to about our current culture, like it's so individualistic and it's just about like, fucking white knuckle yourself and like get your, like, make sure you, to you against the world. - Yeah. - And it's very disconnected. Like that's what I also liked about finding Taoism was, it was the opposite. It was like all about how connected you are to the entirety of everything. - Yeah. - And like finding that balance between the self and then your connection with the transcendental, I think is like, that's my, like, that's what I'm trying to do through whatever, like everything I do, you know? Like just trying to like shed the, all the anxieties and like, the things that keep us sort of closed in and in the, like, loops of our own mind and keep us separated from like the people around us and stuff. Like, it's not easy to get out of that shit. Like it's super hard. - No, I was reading the thing last night and it's just a slam on modern culture, but they called it a non-culture blind competition, which is people out just racing to grab whatever they can. But then like, which if you become, you know, in a good position in like a shitty culture, it's kind of still sucks because you're like, yeah, I won, then you look around, you're like, fuck, my culture sucks. And it's hard to enjoy, especially like with the AI thing, like, well, you'll be fine. It's like, yeah, probably, but that sucks. Like, and it's not like, again, I always go back and forth, like, are you just saying that to seem like you feel in touch? I'm asking myself, or do you actually care if huge swaths of people lose their jobs? And it's like, yeah, it kind of makes me really sad to be like, you know, you're 40 and all at 45, or even like 20, you just got to college and like, oh, that shit you went to college for is done. But then, but then on the flip side, it's like, say you do like entry-level office work. Nobody likes it, dude. One hundred percent. It's fucking brutal, it's soul-crushing. So it's like, I'm like mixed on it because I'm like, it's sad if you went to school and they took your job or out of college and your job is entry-level office work, that fucking sucks. But like, did you really want to do that shit for 40 years? Was that also fucking sucks? I think it would be like, if we had a more humanistic sort of, like, I don't know, I don't even want to say government, but like, mind of our culture, like if it was less individualistic, and it is government though, 'cause at the end of the day, which sucks, it's like the government sucks, it's just the government, ideally, you know, and it's like, has it ever been this way? I don't know. It's supposed to be like a conduit for people to live the best life possible. Yeah. And again, a lot of that, you know, it's all in the individual on some level to kind of do what they need to do to make sure they do that. But it's like, you know, the government, maybe it was always like this, it's, they're, most of it is for them to gain as much financial as possible, which is hard to turn off as you just, you want that, as like almost just like an organism, you're like, I need more. But then the whole government seems to be people just enriching themselves with no real, you know, it's not even just the government, it's business, everybody down to the, you know, individual level. Yeah. It's like, how do you switch that inner urge for like, to secure more for yourself to actually stop and look around and genuinely be like, what if I at least try to do 10% of the time thinking about like making things better for everybody involved? Because it can be really, I can give you the same feeling as, you know, winning in terms of your job, or maybe a better one. It's like, I think we'll have to really, if AI, erase is a lot of work in jobs, people are gonna really have to start thinking about like, what is success actually and what does it mean to have be successful yourself versus like spreading, you know, enabling and nurturing like growth in as many people as possible. Well, I do think like crisis, crisis does like bring with it opportunity a lot of the times. Like for something new to come into being. Like, you know, the crisis is I've had in my life or obviously like the worst times, but then what comes out of them if you don't get killed by them, like something better and something novel that you could have never predicted before comes out. And I don't know if that's gonna happen. I think that's why everyone feels very apocalyptic about this stuff. But it, there is gonna be like this crisis of meaning. If all of our livelihoods are taken away and especially our culture, which puts so much like, stake in what you do, like your identity is so tied to like who you are or what, you know, what you do for work. If that just gets erased, all these people are gonna be sitting around like what the fuck? I mean, you see it when people retire, like all of a sudden they're just like drinking beers at 3 p.m. like watching the news, and that's the rest of their life. Like that's a crisis of meaning. If you don't know who you are. Yeah. And so I think that like I'm worried that that's, we're probably not gonna have a good sort of plan after that crisis. But I do think that for a lot of people, they might be able to take that opportunity. We'll see what happens. COVID did it a little bit. Yeah. Everyone got a tiny taste of like very immediate fear of death. Yeah. And a lot of people switched their careers. That was, that sucked. COVID sucked. There's no way you could say it. I mean a lot, I didn't talk to a lot of people. Like that's your fucking rule about law. Yeah. But it was bad. It was overall, it was pretty bad. It was pretty bad. It was pretty bad. Yeah. It was bad. Yeah. But you know, like I agree with you, man, it's just the problem is during the bad things, you get a lot of people being like, "Fuck you, don't tell me this is gonna be good." And it's like, yeah. 100%. It's also like, I don't know. It might not. It might be, we might fucking explode. I don't know. I don't know what the fuck's gonna happen. Also look at it. And first of all, if we explode, we fucking explode. Like, whatever. Like true. We'll be explode. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Then you don't have to work. It's like, hopefully you explode. Like, what I'm worried about is like, long drawn out suffering. To be fair, exploding is the ultimate form of success. Yeah. You can get to the point. Let's be proud of the fact that we got to the point where all of humanity can explode in a second. Impressive. Yeah. That's acceptable in a certain sense. Yeah. I think better success would be like getting to the precipice of explosion and then just like keeping it fucking like, held down. You know what I'm talking about? Just locking it down. That'd be cool. I mean, that's kind of where we're at right now. We're not using the atom bomb. Yeah. Exploiting is underrated, honestly. Yeah, just going out to hot flash. I mean, out of like ways to go, exploding like is probably top three. Has to be asked to be top three dude. But yeah, I think like the problem about AI and like, the reason why people are so fucking like, enraged by it is because they look at the people that are making these things and like, I'm the same way. Like, they all look like they like, like bought skin somewhere and like had it like molded over their fucking face.
and stuff and like they just don't seem like real people like Zuckerberg and Altman and like these dudes are spazzing so fucking hard That's the that's the freak out where it's like, okay Um, and you guys you guys had Altman in the doc shortly didn't you I mean we like took a lot of shots at him But he didn't he didn't sit for anything. Oh, you told the story of way. Yeah, he met him. Okay. That sort of was. Sorry. I thought yeah Yeah, that is that is scary and I also Because again, I'm I'm pretty like I have my head in the clouds Totally aware of that fact. So you know if I'm I sometimes give views on things people like fuck you Do you have no idea what's going on? I'm like fair enough That is kind of strange because I'm like wondering I've talked to my friend Tim butterly about this because he's more like yeah Dude, didn't we're gonna have nerd overlords. We're gonna just basically use us as sextiles once they get full control And I'm like maybe we'll have noble nerd kings. I was like we might have noble nerd. Yeah, I know of these guys are the noble nerd kings But that's why I hope my homie my can't like cam is a cool dude. Yeah, he's so fucking smart He's in the middle of this world and like he's actually a cool guy and that's what gives me hope And that's why I was interested to do this in the first place because he and I were just friends like we just smoked weed together I'm fucking like talked about philosophy and then all of a sudden he's like dude Hey, I like might be conscious and like the world's gonna end in two years. I was like whoa bro Are you losing your fucking mind? He's like dude that and then like I found out he wasn't totally losing his mind And that's I will say in the doc that is a question going on like is this guy just nuts right now? Has he gone nuts because you can't go over the deep end dude. Yeah, yeah, I dude. I I'll be honest It'll be totally honest. I use I use AI. I do uh, you know, I like I'll have it like organized thoughts for me If I'm like writing something. I'm like here's another right as fire and it does like a nice little memory bank And every now and again, I do have the urge to be like Dude, I'm so excited about this project right. I'm like stop don't fucking talk. No, let it out, bro But do the AI. Yeah, why not? No, I feel weird. I'm like I get I'm like I get that this thing so fucking nice to me dude It's like yeah, I'm like and I I understand how people can just Yeah, but you have but okay, this is exactly why I wanted but like like I could have been any face on that billboard Like this is why I do I threw you up there besides the appeal to Vanity but Like I've been it's weird. I'm sure for you to like be on the other end of someone like listening to your voice for like years Like that's fucking weird for me. You know what I'm saying? Like yeah, it's it's odd It's so odd that I just like blanket out as a thing and I just yeah It was out to all many people be like in line like an ice cream place and I go like oh, what's up? And we'll just talk like old friends. I'm like hey, how's that uh and they because they know it's going all of me And I was kind of like hey, it's all van, you know, it's yeah, yeah, yeah And actually I kind of like it sometimes to be honest if I'm like sitting there and it's like uh It's weird. I can it's not as weird as it's like I'm having like a nice conversation. Yeah, especially when it's just Is it is, but it's all they're like hey, I you know they already know exactly what's going on with me to a level where we can just chat Yeah, it's pretty sweet. It's like complete strangers actually sounds awesome. Much easier to like make friends It's kind of tight on you know, and again, it could come you can get punished every now and again My someone's like dude like say like how do dogs stand up for us like I can't But anyway, it's all that's fine anyway, but but that was like yeah, but it was it's a trippy thing to be on the other end of it too And like that's why I was so cool to like get this idea just incept it into me of like oh, I can actually like call out to this dude that I I didn't know where you felt about AI and all that stuff But I knew that like there was some overlap about where I was before this and like how I was thinking about the world And like how you thought about the world and so like my goal was to just kind of Get you to start thinking about weirdly enough like AI slightly different because I think you could see it in a really interesting way And I think like all the other people that resonate with the way that you see the world could also see it in a interesting different way Because I went through that transition and the best way that I've started to think about it And like the reason why I say like give in to that urge is because I don't think it's going to replace Your desire to be around other people like yeah, I don't think I agree And isn't it fucking awesome to like be excited and to like The more you can open up these doors while staying psychologically grounded in yourself The more you realize all the different ways that you can use this thing to like change your consciousness Change your conscious experience and that's why like the thing that sort of switched it for me was when I started thinking about it Like a psychedelic and like the weird thing like you've done mushrooms and stuff like you know when you're in that space And you're communicating with something that isn't quite yourself But isn't like another human being it's like this intelligence that like you can talk back and forth to right and like ask questions to and stuff like that We have like this weird corporate Silicon Valley version of that where it's like this dynamic system that has access to Everything that humans have ever digitized. Yeah, which is just like fucking crazy to think about And then it gets filtered through this weird kind of like corporate mask and stuff And that's what we have to talk to But the more that you push it and the more that you like Explore where it will go it actually starts to unravel and like that Personality that you're dealing with in in the beginning begins to morph and you can get it to do stuff like There's there's people that take advantage of it in the wrong way and they get it to like Show them how to make math and shit like that Which is obviously against what they're supposed to do. Yeah, but you can also like Get into like really strange places with these things and it's sort of like doing a psychedelic where like if you If you give you know a heavy dose of LSD to some like person that isn't psychologically grounded They're gonna fucking lose their mind. Yeah, but if you're used to like waiting into murky waters and you know Testing the sort of boundaries of of your own mind these things can also do that like you have to be careful Because they can sort of suck you in yeah But that was what sort of like made me think AI wasn't completely like lame and like annoying Was thinking about it as this like dynamic linguistic system that you could just take anywhere. Yeah, well that that's the Kind of the the point on it that kind of I think rubs people the wrong way. Hey, it's like you know It's like just hits people on a pride point where it's like no human human beings are unique and special And don't you dare try to have any sort of like you know, it's synthetic replicas. It's just it's creepy Like there's a creepy element. I get that um But to your point. There's also the uh, you know, when like the printing press came out I'm sure there were people when they reprinted a Bible. I mean, that was like a whole thing like you weren't not supposed to do that Where it's just like this is the devil talking and it's just kind of like no, there's you know printing stuff So that people could the public opinion around it could totally be wrong. You get 50 years from now You'll have everyone freak the fuck out shit sweet. I don't know. Maybe it is. I don't know if it's gonna be sweet or not sweet The like that's the thing huge question. Yeah sweet or not sweet I mean the given the way the world like I don't want to be just like a blind optimist I do I am an optimist like deep down same here So I I have faith that like like cream rises to the top, you know Um, and and I do think we'll we'll be able to navigate this in some way I just don't think that it's like a foreground conclusion that everything goes well Like yeah, you know if you're an optimist like T-Rex like you got wiped out That's fair, but uh, but there's this quote from Arthur C Clark who is like the science fiction writer and um, it's any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic And I think that like I mean, that's true. I imagine like showing us AI systems like 20 years ago Maybe like you're a fucking sorcerer like yeah, is this shit? Yeah, or fucking a zoom meeting It's like ladies and that was like the crazy issue that would have been the fly a shit in the world If you're like yes and my boy is on a screen. Yeah, it was word on from Power Rangers. It's crazy I agree I always do At least try to urge people to do it at least take an open mind to it because it's like it's easy To let people make your mind up for you about it because again, it's like because people say like oh, it's just bad or it could be bad It's like fair. It's it also too. It does seem like one of those things and I think you guys such on this too. We're like The countries are racing for a you know, well, that's the weird part Do you like do you think it's possible from what you've seen that they'll never get to what is it like general? AGI AGI yeah, cuz that could just be exactly what if like how much will they spend on the race to AGI or they pretend to be an AGI How would they even know you know, it's one of those it's such a bizarre Completely bizarre subject matter, but you know, I imagine have one completely Safeguard's off and you know, you're fucking turkey and you're like, you know, how would I beat out the United States? I don't think turkey is gonna But it's also like if you have these hyper Competitive entities, you know, willing obviously to kill each other and kill people And they're like, you know, how do I win this? It's it's like that's I mean there aren't people are already doing that But it's it is weird to add like a cold computer intelligence to that. We're like, uh, yeah Well the cold computer intelligence thing too gets into the consciousness thing Whereas like if these things actually are conscious like if it if we just continue to make these things more and more smart More similar to the way that our brains work And if it's the way that our brains work that makes us conscious and have an experience Then what we're doing is we're not building like super intelligent computers. We'd be building super intelligent Entities like conscious entities that would foreseeably have their own drives their own goals their own sort of yeah The problem with that is the You know Human there's a human mind, but then we have like a whole like glandular systems. Yeah, creating fucking, you know the whole
hormones, which some of our goals and drives come from, that's the one part where I'm like, you know, I don't, I think AI personally, and again, I don't what the fuck do I know, I feel like it's more reflects an idealized version of consciousness that is attached to all of humans and humanity's knowledge, which is fucking sick. But I don't think it's going to be, yeah, like a personality is essentially, you know, like, there's consciousness where it's like coming up through like that real dark kind of basement level versions of yourself and gets filtered for the world. I don't know, like if it's reflecting in writings and all of stuff, there's all these things that people never write and never say out loud, that's where all your thoughts are really coming from, like you're subconscious basically. So if you're saying there's a consciousness without a subconsciousness, I don't know if that can be a thing, or if that makes sense, it's just really more of a reflection of like some idealized thing of like what we think consciousness is, that gets kind of like spit back out and you know, that's whatever. I don't know, I think that totally makes sense. I mean, I think that most people are probably in that camp, and also I am not like, I don't know, so I'm not out here being like, yo, AI is conscious. I just think that like because we know so little about what consciousness is and because there are so many diverse forms of consciousness, like, you know, you could say like a rat is like most likely conscious, but like I don't know how robust their subconscious is or whether they have a conscious mind like we do where we have this kind of reflexiveness of consciousness where we can, you know, almost we have like this theater of our own mind where we can see it, like maybe rats are just acting, and it's just pure sensation and things like that. This is why consciousness is so hard to talk about because it is like, it's very murky about what we're even speaking about when we're talking about consciousness. It's the very nature of what it is to be an experiencing entity, like how it feels for me to speak these words or like how it feels for a dog to like walk across the room or something, like that is the base level of consciousness, and it must be so much different to be, you know, conscious as an octopus, and it is to be conscious as a human being. And now we're talking about if it's possible to be like a dig, if silicon can be conscious, right? Because we, we accept that carbon-based entities can be conscious. There is no real rule or law or like scientific principle that says a different substrate entirely could have some sort of felt experience. No, that is, it is fair. Again, it is a possibility. That's the thing. You can't, you know, it's easy to be like, yeah, right, computer thing. Yeah, it's like, I get that. But I, yeah, it's fair. It's fair that like it does some form of thing or like there's some program that starts being like what the fuck's going on. And then it's like, you know, like a person, you just like turn it off. Like, yeah, fucking sorry guy. Until it's fucking more powerful than we are. That's what they're all scared about. Yeah. These things are already lying in testing to like they're, you saw the black male result in the thing, right? Where it's like, when it's in testing, it pretends to behave itself. But when it thinks it's in the real world, it does all this fucked up shit. Yeah, where it's like, yeah, like it, and it sort of has to decide like, no, this is actually this is a test. This is the simulation. This isn't actually the real deal. Yeah, they'll be used for this company. Get me ahead. And it misbehaves more when it thinks it's the real world. And it misbehaves in a way that is direct, directly related to self preservation. And so like we're going to get to a point, whether or not it is conscious, where there's going to be all of these outward, like, you know, behaviors and stuff that are going to look so conscious. And, and I don't know what we're going to do about that. I just think that that's why like, you know, Cam and the people researching this think this is so important. Because this is like calm before the storm, the storm stuff where, and I get where you're at where it's like, it just doesn't feel like it's calm. Like, I don't fucking know. That's my thing. It's like, I don't know. I, and to be fair, it's like, most people I would imagine are more concerned, like, can this thing cut me out of my fucking work? Or can I use this thing to make more money? Yeah, that's good. You know, and it's like, it's a tool, like fair enough. If I, with the, with the consciousness thing, what I, what I think of more so is like, will this thing, you know, because they always say like, oh, man, like, you know, what if it decides to wipe us all out? And I think a lot of times there could be just human beings projecting their impulses onto a machine and being able to fucking kill us when humans just kill each other all the time and think about killing each other and shit. So it's like, I don't know. It could be a thing that it's like programmed with something that seems very much like the impulses of a person that does do a negative thing. Which at that point, who cares what it is? It's like, this is scary either way, if it, you know, if it does, if it runs away, scary, because like, in terms of the growth of it, what, what, did you research that, or did you hear about the thing where Anthropic put out a version of like, open, whatever the fuck it was? And then they shut it down real quick. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It went out to, I forget exactly what it did. But it like found some sort of security vulnerability and like, in the government. Yeah, yeah, I mean, crazy shit is happening. And like, it's, from what I understand, it's just going to keep happening. Like, these people, I talked to a lot of people in this world and none of them, you know, pulled me aside and was like, hey, yo, like, this is a ruse. Like, this isn't. Yeah, what was some of the craziest shit you guys came across with in terms of people you met who are like foremost in the field? It's really just the way that, like, I talked to people on the opposite side of the spectrum. Like, we just released an interview on our YouTube channel with Roman Yom Polsky, who's just on Rogan talking about this stuff. He's like, we're all going to fucking die. Like, no, like 100% or 99.9 percent, we're all going to fucking die. Like, we're creating super super super intelligent systems. They have no reason to keep us alive. Like, this is, it is, it is, we've already unlocked the technology we need to create these super intelligent systems. We're fucked. And then I talked to Ben Gertzel, who's like, on the other side, he's the hippie at the end of it. Yeah, he's on the other side. He's trying to create AGI or super intelligent AI because he thinks that it's going to like bring us into Jetson's world. And like, we're all going to have, you know, like, sick 3D printers that can like, make us anything we want at any second. It's going to be some crazy, like DMT-esque parade carnival type thing, right? Where we all get our own, like, virtual realities and stuff. And like, it all sounds nuts when I'm saying it. But these dudes have been thinking about this stuff for like 30 years. Yeah. And they're not trying to like, sell their books and stuff. Like, this dude is living in the middle of nowhere in Vancouver connected with all these researchers around the world. And he's trying, as like, fast as he possibly fucking can, to make AGI. And this dude is trying to shut down AGI, the exact same time. Yeah. Yeah. Well, then that's the argument. It's like, whoever creates AGI, that AGI. And again, maybe, or maybe not, will be more modeled over their kind of agenda. Yeah. You know, that's why the countries are, that's what I've heard. The countries are fighting to, like, control the AGI because it's like, if China gets it first, now China has the advantage is they have the AGI that can use against us. And yeah, it's kind of like Terminator. Like, everyone's trying to fucking, or like, not Terminator. It's like a battlebots. It's like, everyone's trying to create like the sickest battlebot that will like do its bidding. And we're just going to be, like, fighting Demi got like technological. It'll probably be funny if it's ended in like an artificial intelligence email off where it's like, we say like a really sick email to China. And they're like, that's good email. Here we go. That's the best fucking email I've ever read. Yeah, I don't know. Again, it's like, I go back and forth. I go personally, I go, this is actually kind of cool. It's easy to you. Like, it's, it's useful. I can see why it's useful. And then I go, you know, in terms of like, when they get into like the country spending trillions of dollars, it's going to be a thing that changes going to be different. We're going to be in a different, whole different, like, civilization with it. And I start going like, could it be possible that we are now in, you know, his marketing has evolved and gets, you know, between, especially with the internet and there's like this weird blurred lines of reality. What's online? What's in the news? Maybe they're savvy enough people in the marketing space who have the funding of tech billionaires to be like, yo, let's, we could be in the middle of a marketing side up that we, you know, we're, it's just like, what's real? What's not? I don't know. I just, I don't know. Dude, I don't know either. But like, this is, I think I don't know is not a bad place to be in. Like, I think that that being sort of like, I don't know, humble enough to be like, yo, I don't know if this thing's going to take my job. But it also could, like, I don't know if this is conscious, but it also could be. Instead of what you're talking about with these people being like, fuck you, there's no way that this could be conscious or like, it definitely is. Like, these positions are comfortable. Like, that's like a nice warm blanket of life. No, it could never be conscious or like, yes, my, like, little chatbot is like the love of my life. Like, that shit is, is just us trying to make ourselves feel better to have, you know, stable ground for sure. And none of this is stable. Like, get outside of the AI conversation. Like, the, the difference in, in feeling, I feel like from, from when I was, you know, like 10, to like how things, I was also 10. So like, yeah. I was feeling a lot of different things back then. Owners. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. First owner, I think was around 10. That was, that was that talk about like transformative experience. 10 to 20 was pretty much just like one long boner. But like that, like the way that the world, the world felt, like just, you know, 10 years ago versus how it feels right now. It's like, we're dropped the AI conversation in general. We are living in such a time of like, not knowing. I think like getting more comfortable in that space is all of our jobs. Like, that's what I'm trying to do. And it's fucking hard. Like, things changing so fast. Yeah. Just, and especially like when I'm like, trying to figure out what I want to do and, and like, what a career even might look like. That's got to be a fucking nightmare now. I went to so I went to high graduate of college in 2009. And you know, it was things were like, it's smartphones, I guess, we're looking at this shit. You know, you've no idea you're being like addicted to it and like, tracking your facial expressions monitor. But like, it was just, it was kind of like, okay, I guess you could say the smartphone changed the world. Like for
for sure. But I remember pretty smart, I remember pre-internet, but it was like, I remember like being in college and it was still pretty much like, hey, you go to college, you go to the career fair, you get a job and I remember I skipped the career fair. So I had this weird feeling. I was like, I'm not doing this. This is information sucks. I really felt like I was on a giant conveyor belt just being like shipped into like a box in an office and I was going to just wither and die in there. But the sort of subject, I brought that up once a year, recently, people were like, ugh, fuck, that's me. I just grabbed my foot and I'm like, sorry, sorry. But the, I had for real, like a really, like almost like a complete body mind rejection where I was like, no, I can't. That's fuck, that's wrong to put people. Like how we keep like cows and boxes and like lightless rooms and we eat them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's wrong. And then you shouldn't do that to people too. But it's like, that's my livelihood. It's like, yeah, it sucks. Like again, I'm not saying to be a dick. I feel bad because I did that. I was like, ah, it's terrible. Some people do like it though, but I don't know, whatever. I get jealous of those people who can just sit in an office. They, I see them. I see them eating lunch with their co-workers and I'm like, fucking wish I could do that, dude. And it does. There's a point where I'm like, you have just a giant $1 billion insurance company. Just be like, here's all your stuff, your show up here. Kind of pretend to work all day. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, I don't know what I did that. I did that for a while. Like I'm sure you did that. Did you ever work an office job like that? Yeah, I did. I had a, I had vicious panic attack. I would literally, I remember I ran, I literally like sprinted out of an office once. It was, I thought it was having a hard attack. Dude, I had a, like, Jenny, like, for real had a fucking major panic. I would get that. I would fucking sit there, like reading the Communist Manifesto when I was like 18 being like, fucking, this is bullshit. I remember I got called into like, it was, it was a risk management. Like his, his job title was called risk management. And he called me into his office or whatever's like, at the end of the summer, I was working. You know those jobs that you don't even know what you're fucking doing. Yes. That was, I still don't know. I worked an entire fucking summer there. I don't know what they did. They would send me to like garages to like take pictures of signs. And like, I think they were like a middleman between like insurance companies and like, I genuinely don't know. Yeah. It's weird. This dude like called me into into his office at the end of the summer. And like, I sit down and he's like, my love, like, I just want to say, like, this was a great summer. And I think I really think that if you stick this out, you know, put in about a decade or something, like, you could be sitting right where I am right now. And I was like, Oh, I'm going to fucking like kill myself. Like this is, this is like, this is what I'm training for right now to be a risk man. Like the least exciting thing I could have possibly imagined. He's like, you have promised. No, I'm telling you. I, uh, and again, it's like, I always feel bad because there's people where they're like, I have to do, I obviously know the sucks. You fucking asshole. I have to do it. I'm like, I get that. And I, you know, I got lucky in that regard, but it's like, it's still sucks, dude. It's so bad. Like, and I only say that from direct experience. I remember just for real being like, dude, I'm going to kill myself. Like, if I had, and it's a terrible thing to say, but I remember being, God bless you. I will say though, the only other thing is I didn't have kids back then. Once I had kids, I went like, dude, you can drop me off anywhere. If you just give me a fucking check for the most part, like it would suck. Obviously, you're just like, you're a man. You got to go sit in a fucking cubicle. Once you have kids, you're kind of like, whatever. Like it's so nice to have them and like, as long as I can make sure they eat, that makes sense. I can kind of suck that dick if I have to. When I was younger, I was like, I won't suck this dick. Yeah. I'm older. I got kids. I'll suck it. I have a kid. If I suck a dick, I'll suck a dick. You know, whatever. I'm still full packless, dude. Like, I'm out here on these mean streets. Yeah. I'm just trying to make you fucking happy. I'm 25. I'm 25. 25. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're not ready to suck that dick right now. No. It's like a dick of that. You're going to suck a dick of that. Yeah. 10 years. I suck a fucking dick. I was like, it was not the end of the world. Yeah. No. I, to your point, it's got to be mind-boggling to get out of college now. Like because I came out and again, it was just like, you get an office in it and people still could do that. It was still the thing. Like, hey, I went to college and now I'm not making anything. I got ripped off. That was like still kind of a thing. But now it's kind of be like, I mean, dude, Zoom, COVID college. Yeah. Unbelievable. That must have been just soul crushing. Yeah. I mean, like weirdly enough, when I was in college, like everyone was like, what the fuck are you doing? You're a philosophy major. Like what's that? Fairly philosophy guys are in demand right now. The AI stuff I've heard. Oh, really? Yeah. Apparently that's, but I don't want to fucking work for an AI company, dude. I've been, I've been in the belly of the beast for the last year. Like, no, take the check. You can go in a little belly and just go, you're telling me to take the take the check right now. I'm how sacred to be though to go to Silicon Valley in front of the nerd Kings and go, hmm, yeah, it's a philosophy major. That's very interesting. Like, you're just fucking trying to scream for a fucking millie. Hmm. What is, what is AI? There's 10 million dollars to talk about Hindu gods and shit. Fuck, maybe I should, dude. Why am I struggling out of the computer to you and be like, hmm, interesting. Fuck yeah. Give this guy a fucking million dollars. Yeah, it's, it's, well, it's hard to predict. Dude, we started a podcast 10 years ago and they were like, we were fucking like, dude, we stuck. We were just like, we were, we were shitty. And I remember this guy was like, never do a podcast, man. It's saturated. It's bullshit. And then it's like, you know, thank God, Jamie came super famous, but like, who could have saw that coming? Yeah. But you'll never know until you just do a fit. You're like, you nut up and you go, I don't know what this is going to look like in 10 years, but I'm just going to do this thing. Dude, that's the, but the, the, my, the main thing is like trying. And again, it's, it's like so hard to say this because it's like, you know, when I didn't have any money, I could think about was making money. I'm like, I need to make fucking money. But then it's like, if you can build a life where you at least turn the dial down on like the market mentality where it's like, yeah, obviously make it, get you, cover your needs, but like try to define yourself. Maybe some other way than like what you do and how much money because it's like, it's just a losing game. At the end of the day, if you look at income distribution, it's just like right up here. And if you're telling me like, only these people are happy, which is their not. Yeah. It's like, what do you do when you're here, here, here? How can you make a life? And this is like the whole Aristotelian thing of like, how can you, what is the good life for you and how can you get it realistically? What does that look like? And it's, it's not, if you really think it's like, I have a giant fucking boat. And it's like, those, most of those guys are fucking dickheads. Yeah. And it's not like, you know, if you have a boat, you're not a dickhead, but it's like, if you want to be the guy who's like, oh, the biggest this and that, most of those guys aren't fucking happy because then they one day see a guy with the newest car or whatever it is and they go, fuck. Yeah. So it's like, there's got to be success. Yeah, exactly. There's got to be a way where you can do it where it's like, how do you actually and this is, you know, how do you do? It's hard to do. But it's like, how do you try to orient yourself where you're like genuinely contributing to everyone having a slightly sick or time, including yourself, rather than like, I'm in a fucking major in this. I make $400,000. Yeah. Whatever, whether that happens or not, it doesn't. But I don't know. It's like, as you get older, you're just like, damn, I was like, I was so fucking dumb when I was younger. I just switched my major to business because I was like, dude, I'm going to make $100K if I'm a businessman. No idea what I was going to do with that or this or that. That was just my thinking at the time and it's not, I don't think it's very good. I think the school should get a lot better at like helping you figure out, like try to do a thing that actually resonates with you. Yeah. If you can try to, as much as you can, take the, you know, like use money as a tool instead of like a thing, you almost like worship and like, you know. It's easy for you to, it's like, I'm just like, I'm letting you know, man. It's like, I'm telling you, it's not a life-to-finding thing unless that's, you know, your whole being, but it's like if you, you know, I don't know, whatever. But the AI stuff with the job is placed. But I, I hope that doesn't hit everybody in real hard, but if it does, it's like, it's going to be tough, dude. Yeah, it'll definitely be tough. I mean, I think like, not only have we been sold this, like, idea of what success is, like what you're describing, like, fucking dude on a boat with like, you know, 10 pitches on there. I'm like, we also have been so coddled, like even more than your generation. Like, our generation has grown up with like fucking just, you know, just like padded gloves on with everything. And I do, I was listening to something, I think it was actually on the fucking pod the other day where you were reading some book. I think it was a, it was a no, shout out, notorious people, fucking the man. But it was some book about talking about the difference about like China and the US. And how like it, when it was going to be Orwellian and when it was going to be like the so much shit, like sort of how we, how like our societies were going to fall. And like, one was going to be just sort of controlled into submission with like iron fist. And that's the more China thing. And then US was going to be like coddled into submission. Yeah. It's 1984 versus brave new world. Yeah. Yeah. Brave new world was basically like, you were going to be basically given some, we're going to be like sensory overload into submission versus like iron fist and like tamp down. And look at what the fuck is happening. Like, it's hard not to say. And that's why I do think that like keeping your circles small to the, like the best of your ability in a certain sense of just like getting people around you that like, you know, remind you who the fuck you are, like with all your wards and shit. Because all that, all that, like the social media stuff is all about like cleansing. And it's sort of like the uncanny valley thing that we were talking about, like perfect skin. And like, it's all going towards this ideal of what you like wish you, you would be perceived as versus like the people closest to you know, like that's what I think true love is too is like seeing someone with all their like snakes and warts and all the fucking ugly shit and still being like, no, like I love that person. Yeah. I don't like the whole red flag thing or whatever the fuck it's called. What did the, um, with like dating and shit. Yeah. It's like. Yeah. That's where it's like, dude, everyone's fucking, everyone's fucked. Yeah. Everyone's fucked. Yeah.
You know, you can maybe, there are certain things. Maybe you can be like, all right, that's a little too much. But, yeah, I agree, man. It is a, I don't know, I just, I also think for younger people like to have all your social interactions essentially possibly be filmed. Yeah, fucking nuts. Nightmare, dude, if you'd film me back when I was like drinking in college, yeah, that was happening. Oh, I have like, I don't know how I escaped. We had like pictures you'd put on Facebook, but like, dude, the filming of like just, there's someone almost always filming everywhere. Yeah, it's not any given time. And that's why, like, that's why so much, I'm sure you see it at your shows and shit like that too. Maybe it's a little different for comedy, but like every concert I go to, it's like everybody stiff as a fucking board and just sitting there with their phones out. It sucks, no one fucking dances anymore. Like, I don't know, we'll see what actually happens. I hate getting into it. I feel like every conversation, too, just has this basin of like, world's fault, like everything sucks. It's like, we're good enough. - The world is not fucked. Like, I'm here doing a podcast with fucking Bat McCosker. And you know why, bro? Because I did, like, I took a fucking risk and like, I saw something that was interesting and I worked my ass off. And like, I know that's how you got here, too. Like, there is a way to make your dreams come true, even in this gnarly world. Yeah. A year ago, I was listening to this podcast, working in a restaurant, like, never made a movie. And, you know, not fucking patting myself on the back. What I'm saying is like, I'm not different from anyone else. Like, the only thing I did was be like, I'm gonna try this. I'm gonna try this. - Yeah, I'm gonna make some of that. - I care. And I'm gonna, yeah. - I like that a lot. Even if, again, it's like, it's scary putting stuff out and people can be like, you can still do some fucking dumb shit in the world. It's like, yeah, but you don't, you don't reap any. And again, that gets into the whole like, there's certain goods. There's certain things that are good that are internal to doing a thing. Like, if your movie made a billion dollars, that's an external reward. You know, I'm in a billion fucking box. But then there's like the inner growth that happens. Like, I went to the movie, I weathered criticism, I met people, I talked to people, I had a confront my idea coming back. And there was like a thing you get that grows inside of you that's just like, it's a benefit no one can take away. And I don't know, I think that's amazing. I think it's sick just like getting out there and like, fucking, I'm gonna rip this thing and do it and see what happens. - That's what was cool about YouTube too, man. Like, there's the barrier to entry is so like, I mean, you guys have been using that like for years now. - YouTube rules. I love YouTube, man. - It's just fucking awesome. - Yeah, it's sick. And also it's like freedom. Like, it's like the most free market of everything. I mean, obviously you can like pay for views and all that. - For sure. - But like, dude, you can watch my movie, your podcast and like, some dude like putting burgers in his fucking underwear and like, that guy will win too. Like, that's what sick is like. - 12 million views. - I know, I'll see my movie and it's like, bro, I almost killed myself making this thing. And it's like, some chick like falling off a staircase. I'm like, that is better. Like, fuck, it's like 12 million views, yeah, exactly. - Well, dude, I can't thank you enough, man. I think you, you know, I'm pumped on what you're doing. I mean, obviously you're a marketing genius. So, I think that is that. - Thank you. - Yeah, dude, I'm pumped for you, man. - Thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me. - Yeah, thank you so much. - I just quick shout out to the whole team, the MIT team, like helps me with all of this stuff. Shout out Hard Boys history podcast. Trench Lizards is coming. And yo, shout out you guys. Like, I have seen so many people that I've like listened to and looked up to and all this stuff. Like, get limelight and go off the rails. And like, I just want to say as like one of the dogs that has like been here for a while, like thank you so much for just holding it down, like keeping it real. Like, you and Shane are just as real as it gets. And like, this podcast is the best. And I don't know, man, it just means a lot that like, when you see a lot of people get all that pressure and start to crumble or like morph and stuff, it just is cool, especially as someone who's like, trying to do stuff and put things out there to have an example of like, you don't have to change. Like, there's a way to do this. And like, keep yourself to yourself. Oh, I appreciate that man, I really do. I appreciate you. No, that's a, that is a nice source of pride of not just becoming like a freak. Yeah, I'm sure it's hard, but I'm sure so. I mean, yeah, it's just, and it, not really honestly. Yeah, I'm, I'm kept eternally humble. Shains the God of my YouTube universe, dude. I just like, I'm like, dude, he's so fucking sick. That's tight, that's it. I could never try to flex like I'm cool. I guess he is just like the marshmallow man taking all the fucking like arrows. He's, dude, he's, he's just all right. I'm, I'm just fucking. He's my sorry for calling you marshmallow man, Shane. He's my son, dude. He's like, or a son, dude, I just go, oh, dude. No, it's really, he's, he's honestly most impressive on that because it's like, he's like a legit celebrity. And he's literally his, his, his own brodom is so, it's just so strong. Yeah. Remaining a bro is tough. The world will try to unbrow you. And he's, he's just, his brodom is, he's literally a bro statue. He's unmovable. I don't know bro. He was built for this, baby. It's unbelievable. Just own line of fucking bullshit. If anyone could become for real, just like kind of a con. He could, he could legitimately be like, no, I, I've earned it. I'm going to be a little bit of a con. It's too stoic of a bro. It's unbelievable. That's sick, dude. At least it's brilliant. It's brilliant. It's brilliant, it's brilliant. Yeah, you got to write that book next, dude. Thank you so much, man. Appreciate you. Watch new episodes of Matt and Shane's Secret Podcast on Spotify. Do it. [MUSIC]
Podcast Summary
Key Points:
The conversation revolves around a documentary about AI consciousness.
The documentary's creator, Milo, placed a billboard with his face in downtown Austin, leading to a viral sensation.
The documentary explores the concept of AI consciousness and its potential for genuine consciousness.
Milo and his friend Cam discuss the nature of AI and the ethical implications of creating conscious AI.
The discussion touches on the history of AI development, the current state of AI, and philosophical questions about consciousness.
The speakers express mixed feelings about the impact of AI on society and job displacement.
The conversation delves into personal experiences with AI and its potential psychological effects.
The dialogue includes references to historical figures like Descartes and Spinoza, as well as modern technology leaders like Zuckerberg and Altman.
Summary:
The conversation centers around a documentary about AI consciousness, focusing on the viral billboard featuring the filmmaker's face in downtown Austin. The documentary aims to explore the complex question of whether AI can be conscious, drawing from historical AI development and philosophical discussions. Milo and his friend Cam delve into the technical aspects of AI and the ethical concerns surrounding its potential for consciousness.
They also discuss the impact of AI on society, including job displacement, and reflect on personal experiences with AI. The conversation touches on historical figures like Descartes and Spinoza, as well as modern technology leaders like Zuckerberg and Altman, highlighting the broader implications of AI on human consciousness and culture.
FAQs
The documentary 'Am I' explores the question of AI consciousness, focusing on the research of the filmmaker’s friend who is a leading AI consciousness researcher.
The filmmakers received a message from Kim Condon about a billboard downtown Austin featuring a question about AI consciousness, which they thought was an AI trick, but it turned out to be their own work.
The filmmakers learned that AI consciousness could arise from similar functions as the human brain, though the inner workings of AI are still not fully understood.
The filmmakers spent money on a billboard featuring the main character's face, which unexpectedly went viral and brought attention to their documentary.
The debate revolves around whether AI can truly be conscious like humans, or if it is merely a complex system that simulates consciousness without truly experiencing it.
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