Ep 620 - In Defense of Sunlight (feat. Rowan Jacobsen)

- Wow, wow, wow, Wes. - Hey, welcome to Matt and Shane's secret podcast. I'm here today with Rowan Jacobson. What's up, man? How you doing? - I'm doing great. - I'm here to be here. - I've been awaiting this. If you guys don't know, I have a little booking service that, you know, throw me guest ideas. I saw the sunlight book and I was like, I gotta talk to you. I happen to be deep in a, what is it called? Helio therapy, you call it? Just getting the sunlight. Yeah, I'm a big sunlight guy right now. As you can see in my nose, I'm like, I have, I'm bad with it though. I have, this is like three days of sunburn on sunburn. So I just keep going deeper and deeper into it and I'll be fine. But yeah, I'm a huge proponent of sunlight, man. It's the best because I was telling you, I grew up on the east coast, northeast. And just those winners would crush me, man. When I read the beginning of your book, when you're saying how you're just like, you know, you're in Vermont and you're just like, no matter what you do in the winter up there, you literally don't feel the sun touch your skin. And it just makes me like, I really do get like, oh, thinking about it. And yeah, ever since I've been down here these hot summers, I'm like still having complained. People are like, oh, it's too hot. I'm like, you have no idea what the lack of light feels like, man, it's horrible. I think about it 'cause yeah, like you say, those winners, they're crushing, especially after a while. And yeah, down here, you're like, wow, you could just be cruising around in shirts and shorts and a t-shirt, like most of the year, essentially, right? Yeah. So that makes huge difference. All year round, if you're a fat white guy, a fat white guy's, or a teenager. (laughing) I mean, even in Vermont, you see the teenagers waiting in the bus stop. It's like 10 degrees below zero and they're in their shorts. Like, they're not in their shorts. That is, yeah, that is kind of weird. Or they, they're, I noticed with teenagers, they're either, it's that shorts when it's freezing or it's like a hoodie when it's hot. And you're like, what's the, what do you guys, tell you guys doing? But, you know, I guess, so what they do. So yeah, how long? So okay, give me the whole thing. Like you, what is your background? 'Cause I've watched interviews with you. I would say you're Dr. Smart. You sound Dr. Smart, but I don't see the MD or Peter. So what is your background? I'm, yeah, no, I'm like a word guy. I've been, like, made my living as a writer for, yeah, like 25, 30 years. Like, starting but publishing. And then I did a little bit of ghost writing. And then at some point, I was like, I'm sick of this. Like, I don't wanna fix other people's words. I just, maybe we'll just do my own words. Yeah. I feel like ghost writings dastardly. It's like, I'm a big co-author guy. Someone's gonna help you with your book. Yeah, hit him with the co-author. There's no shame. I would feel so weird, which is funny 'cause I would, like, in school cheat on all my tests. But like writing a book, the ghost writing thing freaks me out. I don't like it, man. It's like just, just give that person creative. They ghost write or hire them as an editor. Something, but the ghost writer thing is, I get the PBGB's around that. I, yeah, totally. And sometimes I did get credited as a co-author. That's sometimes, sometimes they didn't want my name anywhere on there. Right. We won't name names. Yeah, I can't name those names. No, JK Rowan. No. You wrote the Harry Potter. I wrote them all, actually, like, now the world knows. But no, yeah, so that seems like that would be frustrating where you're like, "Damn, I did the thing." It was actually, you know, like, as a beginning writer, it was actually the perfect first step because your ego was not in it. Yeah. You were not gonna get recognized as a thing. So in terms of just like practicing, you're writing, it was like playing, you know? That sounds, yeah. So in retrospect, I realized that was a good way to start because I was like, "Oh, this is fun. "No one's gonna know whether I screw it up or get it right." True. But then at some point, after a while, you're like, I think I know how to do this. I just want to do it for myself. Yeah. That's cool. And that started, what was your like, so it was more so just the writing? What did you naturally gravitate towards initially in terms of like, you know? Subject, yeah. Yeah, so there's almost random. I was living in Vermont and I happened to get a gig as an editor for this like cult foodie magazine called The Art of Eating. This was like, early 2000s. And it was like, it was like this, a one man show by this one guy who was this like super personicity gourmet. And he was doing this really in-depth food writing. So I worked for the magazine, started writing for the magazine. Then I got an idea out of that to do a book about oysters. It was like, I saw that you wrote a book on oysters, dude. Can you please just break it down? What do you know about it? I was a really stupid one of the, one of the experts on oysters for sure. So I wrote the first book that kind of like helped trigger that oyster revolution in the early teeth. Texas is coming on really strong with oysters. Dude, yeah, I just had oysters the other night. I love them. Yeah, me too, I mean, yeah. So how did you, that's such a sick thing to write a book about 'cause I don't even know what they are, like, I know they're like a little weird little label. I'm still not sure what they are, 20 years later. So what do you, what's like to just, can you just blow my mind with a couple oyster facts? Yeah, not to put you on the spot, but I would just love stuff to bust out next time I crack into some oyster. Well, I mean, they're live when you eat them. No, dude, fuck. Like, then what are you talking about? Are they really? Yeah, so if the, if an oyster is holding its shell shut, if the oyster shell is shut, the oyster is the one holding its shut. And it's like holding on. Shell clamp down, it's like, you know, like, I hope, I hope this goes better than I think it's gonna go. It's just like waiting to get back in the water or whatever. So then you shut it, right? When you are overcoming the oyster's resistance, like its muscles are pulling that thing close and you're cutting through its muscle to take off that shell. And so you just hurt it and it's, you know, it can, it's gone through the tunnel. It can see the light, right? But it's not, it hasn't gotten the light yet. (laughing) So the tunnel's just your mouth. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like, it turns out it's the wrong tunnel. But if you, if you, like guys who are really good shutters, you'll see like, you know, they're like surgeons almost and they don't hurt the oyster too much 'cause they take off that shell. You can see the oyster's heart beating and as it goes down. What? Yeah. Hold on. So oysters, okay. So even when they're out of water, so they're not like a fish where they can only breathe underwater. Like, they are, but they can hang on for a really long time. Like a super long time. What? And they have to be pretty fresh to eat. They have to be. Yeah, you don't want to eat a dead oyster, for sure. I mean, if you just cooked it, it's fine. No, no, I want that thing. I want to see it hard. I'm gonna try to feel it on my tongue next time. Well, I do think that's part of the pleasure in it. Like, you see people, you know, you know, like a pile of oysters appears on the table and people go nuts. Oh, yeah. And I think it's partly because they didn't realize it, but it's because they're eating. They're getting this like live chi, you know? And it's like, it's getting them a little excited. It's like the poor man's a dreamy crumb. (laughing) I always say I'm a middle class, working. (laughing) He used to be the poor man. Yeah, I know. It's almost the lobsters. Yeah, lobsters were just like, literally they served him in prison. Right. I know. Well, they were picking a lot of dead ones too, and tossing them in there. I'm sure it wasn't very good lobster. That's okay. So they're okay, sorry. I mean, that's what an over-delivered on an oyster fact. That's-- Yeah, that was my best play. I didn't know they were alive. I thought they were long dead. No, they're still okay. And if they die, if their shell's open, you don't want to-- No, no, no. Yeah, you'd get your trash. Oh, wow. Well, yeah, that's, wow. So I'll just, I'll save the rest for the oyster book. That's amazing. They're fucking alive, I didn't know that. Yeah. And they are delicious. They taste different from every body of water, because they're basically concentrating that body of water. Oh, wow. And then there's the aphrodisiac component. I've heard that as well. That's just because you're eating a living thing and nothing's hotter than that, so-- You're also pounding the booze with that, but it doesn't hurt, right? I've always thought that was probably part of it. Yeah. God, I can't wait to tell my mom. I'm going to let her eat it next time and say, you know, things alive. This episode is brought to you by PricePix. I think I'm going to get into soccer this summer with PricePix. They're offering everything from group stage winners to gold scored. And I'm hyped to watch the USA teach these other countries about real football and win money while doing it. Other than the US nominate in official, quote unquote, Matt and Shane's Secret Podcast player or team that we're rooting for this summer. Oh, Sean, who you thinking about? But you're the big-- So crazy. What's this? What do you think? There was that name we were all saying earlier. We're talking about, we're all going-- Who? Puelessage. Puelessage, dude. So Pueless, Puelessage. So fucking good. Do you love that guy? He's the quote unquote official M&S podcast player. There's two people here. Hershey, Pennsylvania. Is he really? Hell, yeah. We're rooting for you. The biggest summer of soccer is on-- Now, it's time to lock in yours on PricePix. America's number one sports picks app. The biggest summer of soccer is on. And with PricePix, you can make lineup picks, all tournament long while rooting for your favorite teams from all around the world. Stack game winners from soccer, basketball and baseball on top of my player picks for even bigger payouts. Make your picks for all these events and more this summer on PricePix. Download the PricePix app today and use code drenched to get $50 in lineups after you play your first $5 lineup. Yes, $50 when you play your first five. Visit the PricePix Promo's Board for more info. PricePix, America's number one sports picks app. That's amazing. So, back to the sunlight. Okay, so that makes sense. You're more so following curiosities around the natural world. So after that, I got a reputation as a food writer. So that all the magazines were coming to me. It always happens that way. I've talked to a decent amount of people who are like, I don't know, I was just kind of like doing my thing. You know, a lot of writers especially. You'll do a history book now. People are like, "Oh, you're a historian." You're like, "Yeah, sure," or whatever. So you're thinking of a food writer? So you get a pigeonhole. And if you're going to give me a pigeonhole, that was a pretty good one. It's not bad, actually. Yeah, like better than being like the proctology writer. Yeah, yeah. So I did it for a long time. But I was always folding a lot of science into my food writing. Because I was interested in, you know, what is this thing that you're eating? Where does it come from? And what makes it taste good? So then at some point, I started to think, you're doing more straight up signs, right? - Okay, and that's how you, and then I remember the beginning of the book, you talking, you just started noticing, and this is how I guess you got interested in the whole sunlight as like a medicine thing, you're just feeling a little just like slacken down in those east coast. - For sure, like middle age, you start, like you know, when you're younger, you can sort of like, you don't notice anything. - Yeah, I'm 40, I'm 40. My oyster shell is being ripped open by time right now as we speak, but yeah, I know what you mean. - So yeah, I started to definitely notice saying summer's good, winter's bad, and I live in Vermont, so long, long hard winners. And then, yeah, I was actually doing a science fellowship at MIT, this was like 2017, 2018, and this study came out, or I came across this study, they had realized that when sun hits skin, it actually triggers a release of endorphins in the brain, like natural opiates in the brain, and that's why people kind of get addicted to sunlight, that's why it feels good. And like the dermatologist, he did the study, we're like, this is why people are addicted, this is the problem that people love it so much, that's why we can't break them or their sun habits, and they're like, we should treat this as like a drug addiction sunlight. I was like, or it means that if our bodies are rewarding us for sunlight, there's a reason in evolutionary terms that that came to be, right? Like, people are seeking out sunlight did well in some way. - Yeah, and that's the funniest thing about the whole sunlight as like a thing to be avoided. It really does get back to the dermatologist. It's very funny to see dermatologists, they do kind of get crushed in the sun debate, 'cause they have been making a whole living out of being like, don't let that stuff touch your skin. - They do, and to their credit, like their job is to prevent skin cancer, so if that's your only thing you're trying to do, tell people to stay out of the sun, and also it covers your ass. - I have nothing against dermatologists. When I have a weird rash shirt, you know, a wart, I'm glad they're there to freeze it off me or whatever. - Yeah, I told you. - I will say, I would say kind of sneaky about it, you don't think when you go to dermatologists, that there's any chance they're gonna see you naked, and there's basically a hundred percent chance they're gonna see you. When you go to dermatologists, they'll be like, you get a wart and like, you want a full body skin, I'm like, that sounds good, and I'm like, oh yeah, my skin's all over my full body, and I'm like, oh my God, it's just weird, I didn't know, you know, whatever, anyway. But the, yeah, I mean, it is, luckily for me, I don't know if this is good or bad, but a lot of stuff, I remember hearing like, oh, you gotta stay out of the sun, I remember just my whole life being, that sounds dumb, like I'm not. I would, that's crazy, 'cause I know too, if I'm in the sun, I'm getting sunlight, I have like weird food allergies, that stuff kind of lessens, like my whole body functions thousand percent better. - That's interesting. - So that is, so one of the big things sunlight does is it just tells your immune system to relax a little bit, to chill out. So all those things that are like the immune system overreacting, like which is what allergies are, they get chilled out by sunlight. - Yeah, 'cause I noticed that, you know, where I was like, even like if I get to hang over in the middle of winter, it's like so brutal. Whereas if I'm like kind of in a sun-drenched environment, it's like, if I, I don't really drink that much, but if I do, I've noticed like the hangovers, like shortened air, I just, I feel I need less sleep, I eat less, it's like, yeah. That's why I was like, dude, I'm not whatever, you know, especially with, I didn't really skin cancer. Like it's 98% of them, or 98% of the time, it's pretty harmless. - Yeah, so there's good, there's different kinds, there's melanoma, and then there's what they call the BCCs and the SCCs, which is squamous cell carcinoma and basal cell carcinoma. And yeah, like 98% are those, the BCCs and the SCCs, that's why everyone you know tends to get and, they just get cut off. - Yeah. - They don't tend to have long-term health benefits. I mean, health effects if you cut 'em off relatively soon. Melanoma is the bad one, but it's really uncommon. - Yeah, it's only two percent. - Yeah, it's just a common- - What does melanoma do? - Melanoma can get invasive, and then you get, that's when you get cancer that spreads to one of your turn organs. - That's bad. - That's the bad one. - But that one's not associated with regular doses of sunlight, actually. It's associated with burns, and especially burns in childhood, which means we're all screwed. - Yeah, fine, that's the bad news. - Wait, how do they associate that? Who hasn't been burnt by the sun and childhood? - I know, right? Well, people with darker skin for one. - True. - And they have almost no risk for melanoma. - See, I've heard that, I've heard that people darker skin do have a risk. Not melanoma, maybe it's a lesser skin cancer. Very low rates of all those skin cancers. They can still get them. So I think what dermatologists are trying to do is, like some people who have dark skin think they can't get skin cancer. And so then something pops up and they don't get it checked. So when they do get it checked, it tends to be at a later stage, because of the sense that I don't have to worry about it. - True, true. - So they've tried really hard to make sure that even people with dark skin do worry about it, which is good, but they truly don't have a lot to worry about. It's the rates are like 100 times lower. - Okay, so it's truly lower. What about, I mean, is there a world in which dermatologists can start isolating melanin and just give everyone melanin? Just a little bit, no, I wouldn't pick out, but just like, yeah. - Yeah, melanin is good, melanin is awesome. - I know, I was reading the amazing molecule. - I know, I was reading the book and I was like, God damn it man, I'm trying to activate mine right now. This is the dentist I've ever been. - So that's what I was gonna say. Like, you know, 10 minutes a day, 15 minutes a day, you will start to make a little more melanin and also it'll move. Like from the bottom of your skin, it'll move up to the top to be, you know, there's supposed to be like little, like, sun. - Oh, it's there to kind of like, all right, if it gets to here, I'll step in. - It's the parasol at the beach, kind of. - Whoa. That was the one thing from the book that kind of blew my mind when you were talking about the little, there's like little microbes all over your skin, that kind of just like eat sunlight and just kind of get powered off it. And then if you get a lot of sunlight, you make more of these microbes 'cause I guess it's like better conditions for them. No, I had no idea about that. - Yeah, the skin microbiomes are really important. And you know, like, we've heard about the gut microbes that are, can be good for us or bad depending on which ones we have, but the skin ones and the gut ones are like talking to each other every day. - Really? - Yeah, and they're like, you know, they're running more of the agenda than you would think. - I know, that's definitely, you know, if you're paranoid about that kind of stuff, it's not good news, you're covered in tiny little bugs. Although the fact that they're. - No, they're good, they're mostly good. - They're the good, they're eating sunlight and fucking protect me, that's pretty cool. There's a, there's tannin' injections that you can get. - Yeah, but it's gonna give me, I want the real stuff. I don't want it. - It'll make you darker, but it increases your chances of getting skin cancer. - Yeah, yeah. - Really? - Yeah. - Yeah, so I, yeah. - That makes sense actually. - That's what you're gonna want to get, honestly. - That's crazy. - Right, the same people who are staying out of the sun for their health are then like, plugging themselves at the half time. - Oh, why? - Yeah, yeah. - Ah, I've heard the whole like, like genuinely, I get it, I can't, I'm pretty fair skinned. So I can't have that much sunlight. And I kind of a little over-indulge a little bit, but the whole thing of like, stay out of it altogether, gives me the creeps, man, I've seen. And I actually like, I'm sure you know Brian Johnson, right? - Mm-hmm. - Health guy. I like his stuff, I like that he shares all the things. I can't get with him on sunlight, man. And whole like, carrying umbrella, like genuinely, vamp life, stay out of the sun as much as you can. It's like, it's like, sickly, I don't know. It's really weird. - Yeah, it's funny. He had a post last week where, you know, where he listed like, here's, you know, for life, here's my 50 things or whatever. And one of them was that, exactly. - Yeah. - And all the experts I know in the sun field were like, can you work on Brian Johnson? He's like, he's not up to speed on this one. - Yeah, I mean, it does seem like he's open to following research, which is cool, but he's like, really, really anti-sun, so. - He is, and he's, because he's getting the wrong information, like he's relying on, like, the dermatologist of the world to supply him. If he, you know, if he put chat GPT on the job, he could solve that. - True. - I mean, seriously, those, right now, we're in this like, weird little stage, I think, where those AI's, they haven't been bought yet, I feel like, by any company. They'll give you the straight dope. - And they've read friggin' everything. - Yeah. - So just put, you can put them on the job on this stuff, and they'll like call up, like the key papers for it. - Yeah, no, I, that is kind of cool. They, I use them for stuff when I'm like, I'll just get an idea where I'm like, I'm pretty sure this is how it goes, and I'll be like, well, let me double check, 'cause I, I'm like sensitive to caffeine, so I tried it for some reason. I don't know, this was out of spite. I tried to prove that like, coffee's actually bad for you. So I'm like, really feeding me things. Like, come on, man, give me my argument, and it was just like, no, it's actually good for you. See, right now, they're pretty solid. I mean, I, you gotta feel like, money will eventually be able to buy their things. - I thought about that before. I'm like, this is not gonna last very long. - Just like the early days of the internet was, it truly was like, this like, like, Wild West, where you could just, you know, there weren't companies that were sort of managing an authority. - Yeah, no, yeah, really. - I was, I was even like, well, you know, I was trying to point to the whole thing where alcohol was like, remember when it was like drinking, I'd have a drink a day, and it's good for you. And it's like, complete, not true whatsoever. I was like, well, a lot of the studies on coffee are probably done by coffee company, kind of like research bodies. And it was just like, yeah, not really, man. Like, some are for sure, but there's a lot of independent signs on coffee, and I was like, damn. It's actually just good for you. So I tried to ruin it for billions of people who enjoy coffee, but it turns out it's actually great. So, yeah, so on me. So yeah, where do we stand now in terms of like, just a quick run through of life. Like, some of the science of sunlight being good for you, how to get it and actually all that stuff. - So basically what happened is like 10, 15 years ago, researchers started noticing that people who were naturally exposed to more sunlight had better lifespans and lower rates of like all the classic chronic diseases. So cancers other than skin cancer, heart attack strokes, all the big stuff with lower in people who were getting more sunlight. And they didn't know why, but now they've looked into that and they're starting to get a sense of why that is. And I kind of put it into like three buckets. So one is stuff we make with the energy from sunlight, like vitamin D, and nitric oxide, which is another chemical made in the skin, with sunlight that lowers blood pressure. And blood pressure, huge killer, five blood pressure. So if you're lowering blood pressure, a few points, like globally, that's gonna be huge. - Yeah, that's huge. Nitric oxide, these are sold at GNC, 'cause you would take it and it would like make your veins. - It dilates blood vessel. Viagra is based on nitric oxide. - That's pretty sick. - So sun, you know, it might be nature's viagra too, a little bit. But there's definitely as I can attest to that. - So there was a crazy study. They shown light on mice and then track their sexual behavior. The mice you got the sunlight had bigger balls, and we're considered sexier by the other mice. - Really? - Which they measure in terms of like squeaking and sniffing. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - But anyway, so yeah, there is actually some like, a little hint that sunlight might actually make you a little sexier. - Well, there's this stuff about it again. I just get all my stuff off like Instagram and stuff, but I have heard that if you're like, the sun hits your chest for whatever, you know, however many minutes a day you produce, produce more testosterone, all this stuff. - But yeah, that's interesting. I haven't seen, but it could be. - Probably true, man. - Well, vitamin D apparently is a big precursor for production at testosterone. - Well, then for sure. - Yeah, that makes sense. - That's pretty crazy, but that's, so it just started with people noticing little things. And then-- - Anti-inflammation is the other huge one, I think. - Yeah. - Basically, the sun, when you hit your skin, it triggers a little bit of inflammation like redness, right? Like because it is, it's like a challenge to the body. It's like the body has to deal with it. So the body produces all these different repair compounds, anti-inflammatory compounds, fixes all the damage. And then basically it sends signals to the immune system, saying, don't freak out, we got this. This is just normal daily life on the savanna planes of Africa or whatever. And so basically that, the response to the slight challenge of sunlight triggers a strong healing response by the body, which goes beyond the skin and actually keeps everything else kind of calm and running smoothly. - That makes sense to go check on the other things while they're out, they're like, all right, let's go. - Yeah. - It's like, you call the fire department. - Yeah, let's go look around. - Yeah, right. - They're like, what else can we fix while we're here? - Nice. And then the funny thing too, that I, or something I noticed from the book was this was like, kind of accepted as of like, this is kind of what you did back during, what is it, cholera, or not cholera? - Tuberculosis. - Tuberculosis. - Tuberculosis. - Totally. - Yeah. - And what was the other one? - Tuberculosis and there's another. - So, the, like, so those two diseases got super bad in the industrial revolution. Tuberculosis because everyone was living in packed, dirty cities, right? So they were all, the germs were just spreading much easier. Rickets is caused by lack of sunlight because lack of sunlight means lack of vitamin D. And vitamin D is what gets calcium into your bones to make them strong. So kids in the industrial revolution, like when kids were on farms, they got tons of sunlight. - Yeah. - Rickets wasn't a thing. Suddenly, rickets pops up late 1800s 'cause the kids are either working in factories or like living in like tenement, or like blocks. - Yeah. - In like places like London. They're never seeing the sun. The cities are also choked with cold, cold smoke. So suddenly all the kids are getting rickets. And they figured out that sunlight could cure the rickets and could also cure like the skin form of tuberculosis. So then it was kind of this like beautiful era in like the 20s and 30s when like, everyone was sending their kids up to the alps to like ski in their underwear and the snow. - Yeah. - To prevent tuberculosis. - Yeah, I heard you talking about that and even the teacher would sit out there. I was, that's like-- - Yeah, there's awesome photos. It's like a West Anderson film. - That's really funny. It's like, severn in their undies, chill, I'm getting light. - Yeah. - Yeah, that's a, that's pretty cool. And the other thing too that I saw that I was kind of shocked by was like, it's not even like you don't even have to be in that much direct sunlight. It's like if you had, you can be fully covered with clothes. All the lights still gonna penetrate through your clothes. If you know that, you're gonna get a bunch of like, stuff from basically just being outside. Like the one that really blew my mind was like, sitting under a tree, if you're in the shade, the light hits the leaves and you're getting now like green light or something. - Yeah, yeah. - So there's two, yeah. So infrared, which is part of the spectrum that we can't see, it's like beyond red. So our eyes can't detect it, but it's, you know, it's photons of energy just like all the other visible light. It goes through clothing really easily, you know, like visible light goes through glass. And it goes through tissue pretty easily too. So about 50% of the sunlight is infrared. And it'll go through your clothing and then into your body. And it'll kind of like those photons will bounce around like bill your balls in your body. And then eventually get absorbed. And they kind of like, they make, they help you produce energy more efficiently going to your mitochondria. So yeah, so when you're getting on that infrared, it's just kind of like making your metabolism work a little better, it's, it's giving you free energy. - Yeah. - You get a little bit less wear and tear trying to make energy from your food. And plants don't like infrared. Like for photosynthesis, they just want blue and red light. So they bounce green, which is why they're the green to us. And they bounce infrared. So anytime you're surrounded by plants, by green leaves or grass, that's a bunch of green photons and infrared photons. - Bounce it off of it. - Yeah, bouncing off the plants and into you. So you're getting like a double dose. You're getting it from the sun, and then you're getting it from the plants. So if you're in the shade, you're not getting too much UV 'cause you're out of the sun, but you're getting tons of green and infrared. And green is good too. They're like doing some research at two places, Harvard and University of Arizona right now, 'cause they found out accidentally that green light released migraines and other like pain, what, and anxiety. So yeah, you can buy green lights to treat your migraines now. - That's crazy, I didn't know that. - Yeah, yeah. So that's gonna be one of the next. Like red light therapy is really big right now. - I've seen that stuff now. - So green is gonna be next. - Little green. Really you're saying, also just go outside. - Just go outside. - Yeah, you just go outside. - What? - I have in my red light, my green light here, and actually, fuck yeah, I'm getting some green right now. - You got a little green light there. - Green LED, I'm getting some green LED. What do you, have you ever looked into the whole sun-eater guys who claimed to like not need food, but can just kind of stare at the sun, early morning? - Yeah, so there's a bunch of those dudes in Mexico at the new beach down there. Zipa Lita, I think it's called. - Yeah. - So I have a friend who's like a mess gallon porter. He's like, dude, you gotta go hang out with the-- - That's awesome, actually. - With the sun-eater. 'Cause yeah, there's these guys who are just like, like in the sun all day, and they're like, I haven't eaten in years. Like, I don't know if I believe them, but-- - Yeah, that's one of those. I'm always kinda like, I can't really prove it. So I'm not gonna hang out here for another year. - But I totally wanna find out. So I wanna find out what their deal is. I do have sort of like, when time frees up, I wanna go. - Go check 'em out. - I'm hanging with the sun-eaters. - And there's just dudes that are just standing naked on the beach who claim not to have eaten. - Yeah, fuck, that's kinda cool. I mean, I'd be impressive if you could do it for three days. That's pretty impressive. But yeah, I've heard that too a long time ago that if you look at the sun when it, before it hurts your eyes. - Right. - You kinda catch it in the morning, catch it as it goes down. They claim they get all the energy they need. I don't know, who knows. Plants do it. They don't walk away. It might be sun and cannabis. Let's give 'em all the energy. - True. - Yeah. - True. So the one thing I liked as well, 'cause I'm a big fan of like, this is the part where you have like a little light primer in the book. - Yeah. - Yeah. Whenever I get into like just the physics on photons and lights and all that stuff, it's honestly like the coolest, not even just cool. It's like beautiful when you read about that. Almost on like a spiritual level when you're like, damn, this has been thought out or so. I don't know how, personally, it's like, it's hard to kind of argue against, you know, kind of intelligent design when you read about, just the way light works. Like it's insane. Like, I know, well, I'll be curious to get the, you know, again, just razzle dazzle me with some light facts, but the one that I have that I had recently was that, I didn't realize sun, so there's like the, whatever, hydrogen fusion or whatever, in the sun, particle fusion in the sun. - Yeah. - The light that's on earth is trapped in the sun's core for like a hundred, roughly a hundred thousand years. - Yeah. - And it just like steps down, 'cause otherwise the gamma would just destroy us. - Exactly. - But it's stepped down for anywhere from like 15,000 to 100,000 years, and then once it's ready, you know, it just beams in eight seconds. - Yeah. - It's fucked, it's crazy. That's amazing. - Yeah, yeah, I didn't realize any of that until I got into the book either, but the light is just pure energy. Energy without matter, without mass. - I mean, for that alone is fucked up. It's like, if you really get it. into what is a spirit, it's literally that. - I do think, and you've seen so many religions, basically I've used light as a metaphor for spirit, and you do start to think it's not, maybe it's not actually a metaphor at all, right? Maybe light is that divine force. - Yeah. - 'Cause time does not exist for light, which is, it gets really cosmic. - Really? - Yeah, so this is Einstein. Like, you know, like if, as we speed up, closer and closer to the speed of light, time slows down, right? They've established that. Like the faster you move, the slower time moves for you. If you could actually make it to the speed of light, which is never good, but time would stop. And for light, time doesn't exist. It's everywhere at once that it has ever been. And it's only when it hits matter and gets absorbed into matter, that it kind of falls into time, right? - So fucking serious. - So it seems like, yeah, so that's crazy. - So if light can't do anything on its own, right? Like, it's pure energy. It doesn't really interact with anything. It's like the silver surfer. - Yeah. - Just curious as to the universe. Then when it hits matter, then suddenly it's in time, and it could have cause and effect, and that energy can start to do stuff. So then you start to think of Earth as like this sort of like experiment where light from the sun is like being captured and doing stuff. - Yeah, that's pretty wild. I was doing the, you know, I have a little kid, so I'm constantly doing like, "Yeah, what color does this make if you mix this?" And it seemed so dumb, but I was like genuinely mind blown when I was like, what color is it green make? And I was like, I don't know, red and yellow. Or no, blue and yellow. And then I was just like, damn, sunlight and water makes green for plants. And I was just like, what are we guys? - Just give me a second. - This is actually kind of cool. - But yeah, the light stuff is really amazing when you get into the physics of the photons, just like packets of energy, just moving faster than we can even conceive. It's literally moving faster than time, which is like. - Faster than time. That's a good way of putting it. - It's crazy. And then you get, you know, it just like goes into your skin and your body's like nice and you know, it's, for me that kind of stuff really, I think butters is a, you know, spiritual world view as opposed to one where it's like, just all meaningless photons bouncing or whenever particles and I just, I'm allergic to that world view so. - Yeah, no, the material view is, like it was kind of like right in front of them and they missed it. - Yeah. - But cause yeah, the light, the all the energy that makes us alive, like everything that makes us not pile a mud. - Yeah. - It was light, was sunlight that came to earth, got captured by a plant. And then either we got it directly from the plant or we got it from the thing that got it from the plant. - Yeah. - But it's all sunlight like passing through, you know? - It's fucking awesome. And so in this book, you know, you're basically, I guess trying to balance out the pervasive fear of sunlight. I see it a lot too. And again, what I like about this isn't like, cause there's the opposite thing where it's like, just go outside and just bake in the sun 24, which I've tried and it's just, that's not the move. I, again, my face hurts if I put anything on it, it's still burning. But it's like, the message really is like, sunlight's not bad for you. - Don't pick out on it. But also like if you're just outside, even, you know, protected or never, you're still absorbing its benefits, you know? You don't have to have it like kind of radiating, kind of right into your skin all the time. - Totally, yeah. And I actually think that whole like lying out on the beach for hours thing isn't good for anyone, even if you are wearing sunblock. Like you're just getting, you're gonna get too many, too much energy, too many photons of energy that your molecules can't handle. It makes a lot of free radicals in the body. But yeah, the daily doses, really good. And basically hiding indoors all the time. Clearly really bad. The science is like very clear. So that's, that was kind of where it started for me is because we had sort of gotten to this extreme place where the recommendations are never let unprotected sun touch your body. Use sunblock, three or six five days a year, even if you're indoors, even if you're, you know, it's mid-winter, like that's crazy. - That's insane. - It's genuinely insane. I feel like if you're not getting burnt, you're good. That's like in the winter, I'm not getting sunburned. I don't need sunscreen. - Yeah, and that's what a bunch of the experts have said to me. And I kind of, you know, tend to say like, and make sure you don't get anywhere near burnt because it's easy to think, you know, I'm good. And then the end of the day you're like, ooh. - Yeah, I'm a little big. - Yeah, that's trust me. That's it's every single day. But it's nice to know now that if I wear, you know, one of those long sleeve lightweight shirts, I'm still out getting my daily dose. That was my big thing. I was like, man, there's something about me. I always feel defeated. If I see people with a pool with like the long sleeve pool shirt, big brim hat, and I'm just kind of like, pussy. (laughing) But now I know you're still getting all the benefits. - Sorry, or some of the benefits. - Not the UV, but the rest, yeah. - Well, how much do you say you're saying if I got like 10 minutes of UV a day, I'm good? - In Texas? - Yeah, I'd say, I mean, y'all are blessed with some good photons. - Yeah. - So that's all I need is 10, dude, I've been over doing it, like crazy, I've been doing like an hour. - In winter? - An hour is probably good. - No, summer, it's like yesterday. - So an hour and a lot of it's not here. - Okay. - Your UV index is probably like 10. - Yeah, so you only really need, and that's, the timing seems to be a thing. People have heard this before, but it's like, you have to go out, morning is like the best time, while as it's like the sun's kind of coming up. - Yeah, especially for somewhere like here that you've got a lot of light to work with. Yeah, like an hour midday would probably be too much this time of year, but an hour in the morning is just right. - Yeah, okay, nice, that's it. 'Cause I have a garden in my backyard, and a lot of times it'll be like, these plants are full sun, and I put them out in my backyard. It's like, I've learned that full sun doesn't always mean Texas, full sun, and like it'll, it'll, it'll will, some of like plants that say to be sun lovers, you know, so. - Yeah. - Yeah. - So that's pretty, so what do you do personally? How is like writing and researching all this stuff kind of affected you, or were you kind of on the sun path before that? - I was, you know, instinctively, I was like, I definitely feel better, like on a cellular level when I'm getting a fair amount of light in my day. But then, what's that, like unfortunately, I was writing a lot of this book in winter in Vermont, and I was kind of like, oh my god. - So you were all in fun. - I'm destroying myself, it's stuck in my office. So I'm trying to figure that part of it out right now. Like summer, perfect where I live. Winner, I'm not gonna be able to get the UV that I need for sure. So I do, I head south. - Yeah. - There's also these, I think what's, there's a new sort of like a generation of light devices coming out that are designed to give you a dose of UV safely. - Mm-hmm. - And I think that's gonna be part of the solution for a lot of people who just like, you know, go to the Caribbean all winter. - Yeah, just to basically just stand under that thing for like 10 minutes or whatever. - Yeah, in 10 minutes, it's even less than that. But yeah, their FDA cleared, first ones are just coming out now. So yeah, I think honestly, like, people are gonna think about their light diet the way they think about their food diet now in some ways. They're gonna like be a little more intentional about what they surround themselves with. - Well, that's what I'm always, again, for me, it's always about like, what's the quickest and easiest and like, freest thing you can do? 'Cause there's so many gadgets and gizmos and, you know, people are always looking for something, you know, people feel like, I don't feel good. What do I, you just pull up your phone? You're like, yeah, you know, whatever, this powder and whatever. But the, yeah, that's why I like the sun stuff so much 'cause it like, it really, really works. Like, I can personally attest to it. - Yeah, and it's free. - It's free, yeah, it's free for everybody. It's widely, widely abundant and free. I, yesterday, talked to, it was actually the opposite. This is kind of a fire in ice week. I talked to an ice swimmer. - Oh, yeah. - Yeah, I, Chris Ballard wrote the book, wrote a book on ice swimming and all that stuff. And, yeah. Yeah, it's like, one of the, just again, cold water, pretty easy to come across. You can just ice get a couple bags of ice start on the bathtub and sun. And it's like, those two things alone, it's like, they really set you up, like, you know, they, and then just walk or run. You're kind of good. - But it's actually the same thing. Like, all that stuff, you know, hormesis is the term they use, like the exercise, bros use. But any, any of those things that are, you know, a test for the body, a doable test. - Yeah. - Where the body's like, I gotta, I gotta raise my game a little bit. - Yeah. - That's a really good long term. Like, I kind of think probably what makes for a really good long term aging has more to do with how good your body is at dealing with, like, little bit of damage and fixing it. Then, like, any particular, like, new trainer supplement in your body. - Yeah, I think so too, man. I, you know, just, again, for me, the big thing is just getting outside, being active, just at least for 30, 40 minutes a day. Like, I've, I've, 'cause I've done both. I've done it where I've been an indoor creature for, like, 90% of the day. And I feel wretched. Like, mentally, I feel horrible, and then, you know, so that's been my big thing of, like, trying to avoid becoming, like, human veal. That's, like, that's what it's like. - Oh, I might steal that for you. - Yeah. - Hey, man, take it. (laughs) - This episode is brought to you by BetterHelp. Summer is a lot of fun, but it can be a lot. Summer's fun, but it can be a lot, Matt, or it can be a lot. Well, Matt, tell me, what's one thing this summer that you have a lot going on and what did you do? Did you enjoy being that busy or did you prefer more relaxed, itinerary? I enjoy the business a little bit, but I would like some more relaxed. You need to relax more. That's what I always say about you. People ask me, they say, "What's it like living with a man?" I said, "I got it. Which the guy would fucking relax?" Too much of a busy body. Yeah. I got so much going up here. You do. It's true. The police radio never turns off. True. Yeah. We do have to get you a scanner. Oh, man. Actually, you would have fun with the scanner. Yeah. Yeah. I think so. You could go to crimes and progress. I would do it. I'd be feared in the city. The criminals, the bad guys would go, "Shit, it's Lamar." Yeah. This is the leverage. He's coming. He's gonna get the leverage and get low on him, fire out. So if you're feeling overwhelmed, try better help. They're one of the biggest online therapy platforms and pretty highly rated too. They can connect you with a professional therapist who can help you understand what you need to truly enjoy your summer. You don't have to say yes to everything this summer, find support in therapy, sign up and get 10% off better health.com/mssp. That's [email protected]/mssp. Now let's get back to the show. Guys, real quick. Oh my God. 626, 627. I'll be the star dome comedy club Birmingham, Alabama. That's huge. That's major. Please come. That is June 26th, 27th, the weekend after this weekend. After Father's Day, I'll be in Birmingham, Alabama. And then August 7th, I'll be in August 7th, August 8th, San Jose, California. The San Jose improv, August 7th, August 8th. And then 813, 814, that's August 13th and 14th, I'll be the Spokane comedy club, Spokane and Washington. I'll be back for, I believe the second or third time. Yeah. Geez. Yes. Come, please come see me. I'm gonna be in Virginia next week, Alexandria, Virginia, the 24th, Charlotte, 12th, Virginia, the 25th, Cosis Cabern Club, and Newport News, the 28th and on the 27th, I'll be in Columbia, South Carolina. So please come out the no-shows and you know where I'll be on June 23rd? I'll do them. Not this. Yes. Here in Austin, Texas at the Creek and the Cave. Yes. Pain is in the mail. Drew. Yeah. But yeah, I've gotten to that point many times in my life and it's just, God, I feel terrible. And there's just something about, you know, especially when you're structuring your time and day and like, what am I doing? Why am I doing it? It's like, there is, especially the older I get, it's like just getting outside every day is, it's like important. You really, really need to do it, otherwise you get kind of cut off from like what the world actually is. Yeah. You get stuck into like the internet and your house and, you know, all your bullshit and it's like, it kind of, I get freaked out about how real I should say or how do I say this. The internet is like a substitute for actual physical reality. I feel like it's getting more and more kind of pervasive or we're putting more importance on the internet and it's like just the world basically outside. Yeah. This is the thing I think about all the time. Yeah. It kind of freaks me out. Yeah. We're transforming into something different than we used to be. Dude, I, you know, I get a hard wake up, I get hard wake up calls with it all the time because like, you know, I'm on line. I do a lot of stuff online. I'm always promoting stuff. And then there's like, there's like, you have part of your identity on the internet and you're going, what do people think about me and you go? Okay, mostly negative fucking. And like, so you're like really pulling in, you're like, you know, some like, I find myself trying to like mitigate this playing this like game layered on top of my actual life. And it just gets like so stressful with the whole point is every now and again, I'll be like, oh yeah, it doesn't matter. Like that, yeah, stuff genuinely doesn't matter in terms of like, you know, I have a family and I, you know, I, there's like real physical beings around me, but you're like clouded by this kind of just, you know, digital kind of thing. And it's just man, I, the more, the less I kind of engage with it, the gently, like the better I feel. And it helps to be like, I'm just going to go outside and do this, I'm going to do that. And it's like, it's like a spider web, you know, I mean, I mean, not to trap you. Yeah. It's very bad, man. I don't know. It's very bad. And the worst part is I feel like the internet gives you almost like, it almost puts everybody, how do I say this? Like before, like, you know, if you were in the 80s and 70s and you were, you were, you know, a construction worker, there was no part of you that even considered that you could one day be famous for some, it was just wasn't, you're like, no, I'll never, that's not a thing. You have to be an entertainer. The internet, I feel like it's throwing every single person into the game where it's like, hey, man, yeah, you know as man, you could, and I just, I do feel like it has not good effects. I have funny, just in the past 12 hours, funny experience with all that. So my book came out yesterday, a huge wave of media attention, like suddenly, like interview requests are pouring down on me. So I said to my friend of mine, who's like pretty website savvy, I was like, can you tweak my one website? It looks a little crappier right now, could you just tweak it for me and make it look a little better? Um, at 1 a.m. last night, I got a text from her, she's like, I broke your website. It's like, I can't fix it. I'm so sorry. It's down. Apparently, like some recovery link went to some administrator email, I don't, we don't know who it. So I was like, okay, like the day that my website is going to get the most hits ever, it's down. So I was like yesterday, this was the day at 1 a.m. like a few hours ago, I'm like, okay. This is a good test of your zannability, right? It is, man. That's the, you just say zannability, yeah, zannability is a highly overrated skill, man. You really need it to be like, well, fuck. Yeah. All right. What are we going to do now? I'm not there because there is this part of your mind that's like, it's almost like delicious when you're like, yeah, get the fucking freak out right now and you're like, you have to be like, not even going down that path. Yeah. But so as you were saying, it's like, okay. It wasn't that important after all, you know? Yeah. So what did you get to fix? No, it's down. I'm just ignoring. I can't do anything about it. That's the thing, man. Yeah, you really can't. It's like shit. I mean, shit. Yeah, that must have been really stressful. All that 1 a.m. Like, okay. There goes the sleep for the night. Well, fuck. I'm sorry to hear that. But again, it's one of those things where, I don't know, it'll get fixed and then it is what it is. I did my last comedy special. I had two shows on Friday, two shows Saturday and I was going to just, you know, see which was the best show at all four. You have a lot of chances to get it right, basically. So I had four chances to do it. First night shows were good, but I was like, I didn't feel like that was the one Saturday. I'm like, all right, I got two more chances, feeling good about it. That morning, yeah, was that morning of the show Saturday, I had to film something for the intro. It was kind of like camera rig thing, all of me, it was like a POV and I leaned forward too fast and the camera put it, like literally cut my head, it was bleeding for hours. But then the problem was, now I couldn't splice. If I had like a great, if I had like a good take from one, so those two others were rendered mute where I was like, I can't use these. So now, and then I remember there was just like a bunch of people there just put it on makeup on my head, camera, a different light and they went back and forth maybe 15 times. It was like a collective freak out for an hour and a half. Maybe for us about to go on and I just remember being like, guys, just stop. It's okay. I appreciate you working hard, but like it is what it is. It's like, we're just going to deal with it and figure it out. Let's all just stop freaking out and just move on because you can really get caught in that like anxiety freak out loop. We could have stayed in it up until the minute I walked out on stage. I remember just being like, fuck it guys. Let's just do it. Who cares? Who cares? Yeah. And it went great. It was fine. And I'm freeing to be like, it's just like, I was like, that's what I, whenever I try to take anything remotely serious, I tend to get reminders just from like circumstance where it's just kind of like, dude, shut up, just go do your thing. So that was a, I remember just kind of laughing and being like, of course I fucking smacked my head on a camera today. This is kind of more, this is what I do. Yeah. A friend of mine who's a photographer for the New York Times. So he's had a pretty good career, but at some point he's kind of like, this is, who cares, right? You see, as the thing he says, whenever anything comes up, he's like, just remember, we are animals and we made this all up. That's a great one. He comes in handy. He comes in handy. I'm really dumb. That's a, damn, that's amazing actually. That's really good. I'm going to use that on my wife. Right. So you can backfire on you. Yeah. Which he freaks out. Like, we are just animals. We're making it all up. Let's do it. Animals do, babe. So what, um, so what's next for you, man, are you, you're on, you're on the big, you're on the book tour, moving around, what do you, what do you got on the horizon? What are you, what are you thinking about doing? So I am a couple of things. I'm trying to decide which way to go. I'm waiting for a sign, right? Um, so one of them is kind of what we're talking about. Like, the more you think about, like, then you start to think about energy and you start thinking about us as you rather than just like piles of molecules, we're basically like this flow of energy, like, like a standing wave of energy. Yeah. And it does have like the spiritual aspect to it. And there's some really interesting new science coming out around that. It's like hard science, but I think there could be a really fun, just like easy mainstream book about that concept. So you're going. I'm quantum, you're thinking. - Exactly, yeah. - Now's the time. - I was thinking the title could be "Quantum Me," right? (laughs) And I think it just experiments, self-experiment, like. - I mean, I'm no stranger to like the, just a lot of different spirituality books and stuff, and a lot of them tend to just dabble. A lot of 'em, they borrow from quantum elements to be like, hey, you know. - That would mean, we could be two places at once, you know, and you're like, what the fuck, you're serious? - Totally, the entanglement stuff, like that. You can apply that to so many different things in life. - So you've been sneakily researching quantum, basically just quantum, is it more just like, your body as a non-physical, or energy, whatever. - It is, it's all quantum mechanics, 'cause like, down to that basic subatomic level, it's all about electrons and photons interacting. And, you know, for the physicists, they figured this out a hundred years ago, that like, energy and matter are like two sides of the same coin. Biologists, like, learned this yesterday, it seems. Like, they missed it for a hundred years, but now they're like, oh, we need to think about magnetism and energy, and how all these things like, change the stuff that we are. So, it's hard stuff, but it's, but that's why I think there's, like, the light version of it would be, could be a really good book. - That is cool. - Yeah. But then the other thing, when you're, you know, a bit of a contrarian, you write a contrarian book, and everyone's like, you're an idiot, you're so wrong, and you're like, it might be wrong, but it might not be wrong. - Yeah. - And then you try to figure out, how do I know if I'm wrong or not? So anyway, I think it'd be really fun to write a book, and this would be, I'd book, I think, 99% audience would be dudes. It would be the title. - You're in the right place, right? - This is a very dude, that'd be fun. - When you are right and everyone else is wrong, right? That would be the title. - That's great. - I think a field guide to unrecognized genius, but it would be tongue-in-cheek. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Here's how to know if you are genius or if you're just entirely wrong. - How would you summarize that thing? 'Cause there's a lot of people who have been right, a lot of other people, like a lot of the advanced, like germ theories, the biggest one. - Or one of the biggest ones. - Yeah, no, that's one of the best examples. - The guy died in insane asylum. - So many of them, they got it right. No one ever recognized them. So yeah, and they often just kill themselves. - Shit on them, like actively shit on them to the point where they end up killing themselves. The God, who's the guy, a girdle, the mathematician, starved himself to death. He apparently, and I still, I've tried to read about it a million times, but he proved that math, the axioms, mathematics, were founded upon, contradicted the mathematics himself, which just like, they wanted, they wanted math to be this like concrete physical reality that like, they wanted to take it almost away from like, they didn't want anything kind of like, airy about it. Like, no, this is a hard physical science and he kind of, out of nowhere, it was like, yeah, no, it's not improved using their own axioms. And then they were like, fuck you dude, and you just say starved himself to death. He was like, but apparently everyone's like, nah, fuck, he was right. - It sucks to be the guy who's right, but totally ostracized for it. - Yeah. - Couldn't be worse. But anyway, so yeah. So part of it would be looking at all those examples through history, and like, can we recognize a pattern so we can start getting better at recognizing these people? - Yeah. - And then the flip side would be like, how do we tell when you're full of shit? Like, how do you tell when you're full of shit? - Well, the fun flip side is just going through the, there's, I mean, there's got to be no shortage of people who are like, I got this and then it's just turned out they're 1 million percent, which is really fun. Yeah. - And we're almost always wrong, right? - So that's the thing. How do you, so is there a better or faster way of figuring out? - Figure not you're wrong. - Yeah. And except for that one time when you actually did get it right. - Yeah, the problem too is that, 'cause I've seen, I forget where I was watching, but I was watching, not even a debate. People were just like talking one of those YouTube videos where they kind of reference that whole thing about how like everything we know now will be wrong for the most part and how do we kind of accelerate that or factor that in and it's like, you really can't. You just have to like wait to definitely know you're wrong, I bet you're right. - See, so that's what I'm wondering, is there a better algorithm? - Yeah. - Also, it'd just be fun, like all, you know, your uncle who is certain that he's always always right. - Yeah. - It's a good gift for the uncle. - Yeah, that would be, that actually, just a title alone. They'll probably be like, yep, put it down. - It's basically a beach read for dudes, right? - Yeah, I remember, I mean, it's slightly related, but I grew up doing construction, like a lot of family construction businesses. And I remember my job this one time was like, I had to run a tamper and compact dirt and gravel. I think he was like a 97% compaction rate. That's what I needed. So I'm going over like 93, 92, 95. And a lot of my uncles are just, you know, done construction for a long time. So like there's a thing with construction workers and engineers where construction workers will be like, you don't know shit man, like they do it every time. Like he's fucking, you know, you couldn't possibly use your book smarts to like, you know, your blueprints are wrong. There's always going back and forth. So it's just this young kid, he was the engineer, probably intern. And he's just, he had, every time I would compact it, he had to stick this probe down into it and measure the compaction rate. I remember my uncle just stood over from the whole time and be like, so dumb. What are you doing? And it was kind of just like going back and forth. And eventually, I remember him be like, you're never going to get 97. Just like, I know for a fact, you're never going to be 97. And then I remember I ran the tamper like backwards across the thing and then we ended up getting 97. And he was just like, that thing's dumb, right? But there's, the point is that, yeah, as you get older, there's a, I would say, almost the sexual pleasure in being right. I'm telling you, dude, all of my, my dads, if you talk to my dads or any of my uncles, huge chance they're going to hit you with a story about a time they were right. And the other guy was wrong. And it's just, it's just a five-minute story where in the end, like, yeah, so yeah, I was fucking right, so. - Absolutely, it's a guy thing. - It is. - It's awesome. - Telling a story about a time you were right is so funny. It's such an insane premise. - Right, right. But yeah, so yeah, you just, you want to be the one who bucked all the idiots and got proven, like, instinctually right somehow. But it's, those people are rarer than-- - You had to be alive for it. That's the thing that kills me. I always read about these guys at, like, I always think of Emerson. He was out in the woods just writing about stuff. And I was like, what a fucking dumbass. Like, this is a worse guy ever. And then it just, just 200 years later or whatever, they're like, this guy's a genius. - And almost all the, like, the geniuses are told they're wrong. So it's like, how can we spot those guys faster? - I don't think you can, 'cause I feel like once you even start looking for it, and you're like, yeah, it'll just be more, it'll just be more group think and then it'll be a fake genius. - So group think, basically, it's like, I hate group think. - Yeah. - I absolutely fucking hate it. And you see it everywhere. You see scientific institutions or some of the worst examples of group think. - Yeah. - No, it's really bad. I mean, I luckily, it was like a cool experience. I don't know if I really did anything with it, but I got to go back to school in my 30s. I went back, I got a Master's in Social Work, which was like, you know, I would say Savior, 50 grand, whatever. (laughs) It's just, dude, I do it. I do it. Anyone, you can go get one, anyone can get one. You can go get a Master's in Social Work, it'd be basic, it's whatever. But I remember just as an adult going back to school and really seeing those dynamics at play in terms of group think, where it's like, it'd be a question that you could literally say anything, and they'd be like, huh, I've never considered, like, it wasn't like biology, they're like wrong. And I just, no one would raise their hands ever, like ever. And then to be like, just to, there were certain, you know, things that if you said, the place would spaz, and like, I just watched in real time, people just be like, I'm just gonna just agree, and just get along. And yeah, it's kind of terrifying when you think about it. I would say 85% of people, it might be even 90, would just be like, I don't even, don't even bother me with thinking, I just want everyone to be cool. And I'm just gonna just sit back and chill and tell people dictate what's going on for me. - And the internet and AI, it becomes harder to be an outlier. Like, it'll find, the group will find you now. Like, it's harder to escape the group than it used to be. - Yeah, I can see that. - So did those social work skills? So do you use those for standup, for interviews? Do you use those in your daily life? Was it useful that way? - You know what it was useful for? - Yeah, I had, I was like about to have a kid right when I went to social work school. And I got like there, while there I got definitive proof that you're not supposed to leave your kid in the crib to cry it out. That's like that common folk was. I'm like, let him cry it out, they'll be fine. They're like, that's bad, it doesn't work. And just like, definitely don't hit your kids if you can help it. And I remember just being like, all right, those are two actually decent facts that I have, you know, on the record, 'cause you hear it all the time. They're like, they'll be fine, let him cry it out. And you know, if I had to tap into my collective wisdom of like family and friends, they'd be like, yeah, it's totally fine. And I remember at school, they're like, no, that's just the baby giving up. And you're like, fuck, that's so sad. Goddamn, that's so sad. I mean, I remember that. I remember those sleepless nights being like, we can't let him cry it out. - Same here, like it is hard to hear that, like. - Hello. - Every instinct to your body is like, go rescue that kid. - Yeah. - And you can do like two minutes or here and there, when they're just like, let him do it, it's just like, yeah, it's not good, not a good thing. So I got that from it. - Let me hear that. - Thank you. And then I also, for me, it was just cool where I was like, it's just like a personal thing where I remember being like, oh, this is like, this is a master's part. I thought I was gonna be around like literal geniuses 'cause I was like, master, this is like a step away from doctors and like doctors, you know. And it was, for me, it was kind of like a peep behind the curtain where I was like, okay, academia is not the, you know, But there's a lot of smart people, obviously, in different fields, doing a lot of and even in that field, I'm sure. But I remember thinking like, "Oh, it's like a self-limiting belief kind of thing," where I was like, "I couldn't possibly hang around." I was thinking it was like, I don't know. I just thought people would be brutally and beyond belief. And it's like, "No, a lot of these people at the top of certain things are. There's some very, very smart people, but a lot of them are just pretty normal too." For me, it was kind of like, "Oh, you can do anything." Yeah, I've had that experience a few times, too. I kind of feel like the process of maturing adulthood is just getting to each stage and going, like, "Oh, everyone here is just as dumb as I am, right?" So I may as well do this stuff because it's like. That was the thing that you just summed up my answer. I was like, "Okay, everyone's pretty fucking dumb, too. That's good." I thought I was. Right. I thought I was going to be around like perfect people. And then I was just like, "Yeah, I know. This is nice." So I was like, "Oh, nope. I'm not here either." It's every rock I lift. I go, "Yeah. I have a bunch of idiots. More idiots. Great." Yeah. So. But no, man, I'm excited for you. I can't wait. I'm going to finish this. I cracked into it last night. And I highly recommend In Defense of Sunlight. It's, again, I like the cold water stuff, too. I'm big on the cold, and it's, you know, almost like. People can watch it online and go, "Oh, more stuff about it." It's like, just try it. That's the big thing. It's like, actually try it. It's super simple. I think to put into place. And I don't know. There's no downside. It's like, "Go outside." Now, for me, it's like, I can be outside in the shade, and I'm thinking about little green photons hitting my skin. Amazing. I'm going, "Yeah. I am fucking peaceful now. This stuff works." And so, I think this is a great book. I appreciate you writing it. Is there anything else you have to say, any more razzle dazzle facts or insights? I mean, they've always their shit. Kill me. I can't wait. I can't wait to talk about that. All right. This is a terrible thing to leave everyone with, but let's just look at a bunch of studies showing that citrus consumption raises your risk of skin cancer. Okay. Hold on. I saw that. There was in the attached emails. I thought they were talking points. I've read it. I'm like, "I can't understand the goddamn stuff." So, they were saying citrus. Yeah. What? Yeah. I skimmed it being like, he's probably just saying citrus is good for you. So, citrus is linked to skin cancer. It's linked to skin cancer by multiple studies. So, what do you take from that? I eat fewer grape fruits these days. Really? This is what I take from it. What? It's the combination. Yeah. If I'm going to know, I'm going to get a bunch of sun. I won't eat like a grapefruit. Dude, I just plan on a lime and lemon tree and comequats. There's this thing called margarita burn that like people are well known, like people go, you know, they go to the tropics and pound the margaritas and then they get extra fried the next day. What? From all the citrus. Yeah. But then if you don't have this vitamin C, you get scurvy. Well, right. Right. You don't get scurvy. Okay. But you're saying you definitely won't get scurvy. That's good. But they're saying vitamin C, Ken with sun, Ken. It's not the vitamin C. It's this thing called sorelands that are in the citrus. Oh. Fuck. Yeah. That sucks. I think I think a little is fine, but don't pound that whole bag of oranges, maybe. I'm dude. I'll be honest, I'm not worried about skin cancer. I'm really not. I just doesn't seem like that big of a deal. Not many people die of skin cancer. That's what I'm saying. Like you get all the other cancers or you die so much more frequently. Yeah. Cullen cancer, breast cancer. Bad. Those are bad. Lung cancer. The biggie. That'd be terrible. Yeah. My dad had skin cancer. They just like blasted his face with lasers. Yeah. They were calling him Michael Jackson for a while. Yeah. I mean, it's not. It's no fun. We shouldn't. It wasn't fun. He's downplaying it. I gotta determine. Yeah. You don't like me. I'm going to fucking downplay it. I get white spots on me every now and again. I go, yeah, photon. So it gives a shit. Let him fucking in there. I'll heal it up. I always tell myself five times I need to love a cure for that. I'll be fine. I need to. Well, dude, I hope your website gets back in order and I appreciate the inside of that thing of just this brand. We made all this stuff up. That's my new mantra honestly. That's amazing. Well, thanks for having me. This was it. Thank you for coming around. Appreciate you. All right. 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