EP #62- Wim Hof Breathing and Psychedelic Experiences with Avi Greenberg, Corporate Wellness Advisor

[MUSIC] Any acute high stress, cold exposure, you know, for me, jujitsu, it changes the way you breathe. So in order for you to sort of like reap or receive the benefits from a cold practice, you have to slowly breathing down, you have to calm your breathing down. Welcome back to another episode of Everyday Endorphins. This week I am thrilled to have Avi Greenberg come onto the podcast to talk all about everything related to the power of breath work, his own experience taking psychedelics, his health and wellness journey, what he's doing now as a corporate wellness advisor, and certified Wim Hof instructor and more. In this interview, we really get into Avi's own health journey. So what prompted him to go to Peru and do a psychedelic trip with Ayahuasca, how he prepared himself for that physically, emotionally, mentally, and then eventually how he became really passionate about Wim Hof and what the Wim Hof method is, the power of submerging yourself into the cold, how he can regulate our breath, and the way that our breath can actually impact our own physical, mental, and emotional health. Avi has a really interesting story and lots of incredible pieces of wisdom to share, so I'm super excited for you guys to hear this interview. Before we get into it, I have a brief message from my sponsor, Inker. Hi, Avi, thank you so much for coming onto the podcast. My pleasure, thanks for having me Stella. It feels like just yesterday, I mean, it wasn't that long ago when Gigi and I got to do that amazing breath work session with you. We did it at 8 in the morning and it ate in the morning Eastern time. You were up at like 6 am. 6 am. Talk about the early bird catching the worm, but it was such an amazing way to start my day. And I felt so refreshed going into work later that morning at like 9 am. I felt so calm and composed and it was just an amazing opportunity to get to do that session with you. I was really thrilled when Gigi said she was bringing a friend in. And then when we met in the session and we had a chance to talk, I was excited just to have someone that had some experience with Pranayama. Obviously the yoga background coming into it helps. It's a nice foundation and then to do a conscious breath work session, you know, for me that's my practice. So that's what I teach, but I have also a background with yoga. And yeah, it's just, it's cool dynamic. I think starting your day with breath work or Pranayama or yoga practice, I think it just sets the tone for the rest of the day. So I love doing the sessions with Gigi first and foremost, but then when she brings a friend like you to come on, it's always an honor for me to share the practice that I love that sort of change my life with others that are exploring wellness in different modalities. Yeah, let's get into that. So how did you develop a passion for breath work, meditation, how did the practice of breath work change your life and alter your perspective on health and wellness? Yeah, I started about six years ago living in Miami Beach at the time. I was in a full-on rut. I read somewhere that you, most people deal with like six or seven bouts of depression in their lives. I was definitely within one of my bouts, you know, maybe more, maybe less than six or seven, but I was definitely struggling. And I found this Vistok similar to a lot of people on Wim Hof. I thought, you know what, this guy's onto something. And I didn't really do much with it at the time when I first saw it. But then I decided I was actually going to go to Peru to the Amazon to sit with Iowaska or to have an experience with Iowaska. And through my therapist, you know, we were talking about it. And my therapist didn't say, hey, I've done Iowaska, you should do it too. My therapist actually was someone who had done Vapassana. And he found Vapassana at a time when he needed it. And I think he knew I had something inside of me that needed more than what I was going through and what I was dealing with. So when I told him that I was interested in Iowaska, he said, well, you should do some research on it and find the right place. And if it speaks to you and it's the thing to do, then do it. I did find the place. I read a book called The Test Piles Guide to Iowaska, a handbook. And within that handbook, there was a retreat center in the Amazon in Peru that resonated with me just kind of the way I described it. Then I did some research online. I went on these Reddit pages and I started doing digging, digging, digging. And then finally I got the courage to reach out to the facility. And I spoke to someone at the facility and they said, all right, you know, like, you're going to need to get your act together before you come to the jungle. You can't come here and expect that this plant is going to heal you. Like, you can't come here and be a wreck. You have to be. Well, you need to be like in that right head space, like I heard before doing psychedelics. Like, you need to have the right set in setting. So the right mindset and the right setting, you know, environment in which you're going to engage with those drugs. I mean, Michael Paul and obviously, right, a lot about psychedelics. And there's a lot of research now, especially on the benefits of microdosing with psychedelics to help with chronic depression, anxiety. And so basically your therapist had suggested they look into this. This could be of use to you. And you did a lot of research. You researched a lot. And then before the facility took you in, they were like, you actually have to get your head a bit more straight to feel like you can get those benefits. So what took you to the next step? Like, how did you actually begin to work on yourself and then decide, okay, I'm now ready to actually do this IOSCA trip in person. So they told me I needed a breathwork practice. They said you need to get a meditation or a breathwork practice. And I tried to meditate for years and different times. And I never, they always say like, you know, your mind will quiet or your mind might not quiet. It never happened for me. I was always feeling like nothing would slow down. I remember watching this Wim Hof by stock. And I said, you know what? I'm going to try that breathing method because that seems pretty intense. And I'm an intense guy. And maybe this, this ice man, his, his breathing method might, might work for me. And if I can do that and I can do the cold, I'll be ready for Peru. So I wanted something drastic and I downloaded the app. And at the time you had to pay for the app and it was pretty basic. They just had Wim Hof in a video saying, breathe in, breathe out. Like, let it go. Faster, move the air. You know, and all his, whoing and high and, and I downloaded the app. And I started doing it every day. I woke up in the morning because I was really scared to go to the jungle and try this medicine. And I knew I was messed up and I knew I needed help to kind of get my life on the right path. So I said, that's it. I'm going to do this exercise is this breath work every day. Not knowing if I should use my nose or my mouth. I just breathe through my mouth because my nose was chronically congested. And I started there. And I just literally would force myself out of bed in my sunny Miami Beach apartment, you know, facing east, facing towards the ocean, you know, the sunrise right in my living room. And I'd lie on my couch and I'd basically hyperventilate because I didn't know the difference. And I just, and then something would happen Stella within the breath holes, which maybe you felt in our session with Gigi, I would feel a sense of tranquility, peace and euphoria within those extended breath holes. And I knew something was shifting there. And I didn't know the science behind the method at the time. I didn't know physiologically what was happening, you know, the chemistry of my blood. I knew nothing. I just knew something in my brain, the tension and the stress that I was holding onto, something was releasing there. And then I would take that first breath back in. I think of it almost like as your recovery breath after that long hold. And then I felt an even deeper sense of calm and peace in those moments. And I would do three rounds every day. I found a health club in Miami, the standard in Miami Beach. The standard in Miami Beach had a homom with a sauna, a steam and a cold plunge by the pool. And I started going every day and I forced myself to go every day. And I had no idea how to do the cold. The app never told you how you handled the cold. So I went in and the first five times I got in freaked out and got out. So was this for like a month, like how long did you prepare yourself before you went to Peru? So I agreed. I said I was going to go. I had to call with the center in August and I was never forget. And this was this was the shape I was in. I was overweight. I was smoking cigarettes at the time. And I remember being on the phone with him smoking a cigarette. My leg was trembling, you know, from fear and anxiety and stress. And it was in August that I said I was going to go in September. I put my deposit and the trip was booked for end of January, the last four or five days of January into February. And it was five ceremonies and six nights ending in January, starting in February. So I gave myself basically was at four or four or five months, ramp up time to get ready. So September, I started the breath protocols. October, I joined the standard. I started to do in the cold training in October. October, November, December, December, I started to feel better. December, I felt like the shift had taken place. I changed my diet based on what I read in the book. So I cut out all pork, all red meat. I stopped eating sugar. And I mean, when I say, I stopped eating sugar. I didn't even eat fruit for like two months. - Wow. I mean, that sugar is everywhere. I mean, if there's the debate like, you know, natural sugar, that's a quite restrictive diet and that's quite intense. And if it, you know, if it works for you, that's awesome. But I'm sure like you kind of had to go all or nothing at that point. Like it was a big shift. - That's how I kind of am. I was going all or nothing. There's also, you know, you're supposed to go celibate. So I was, you know, at the time my wife and I were long distance, we weren't married. We were just dating in our first year. We, you know, I told her, you know, when I see you, nothing. So we were completely celibate for that period of time. Also, you know, I had an addiction to marijuana too. So I, that was really the big sort of like, the big sort of boulder I was holding onto is this 20 plus year addiction in marijuana. So I had to stop that. And that was hard for me because I had not given that up at any point in time in my adult life from high school. - You know, that's interesting. You bring that up because the things that we like latch on to that were like addicted to or were just constantly craving all the time, it, I think it's more as like an escapism. So maybe be like beneath the addiction, there was probably something there. I don't want to speak for you because I don't fully know the experience, but I can imagine that maybe there was something beneath that that was kind of fueling that desire to keep smoking either cigarettes, marijuana, whatever it was. And, yeah. - In escape, right? And so it's kind of like, maybe through this breath work and the intense meditations and the change of diet and really just trying to like turn your life around, you were in a way addressing those subtleties that were basically like the foundation to why you were engaging in those behaviors that were ultimately kind of self-destructive. So you're, it's kind of like the self-healing process that you went through. - Yeah, and I had to basically confront that escape, that escapism, that numbing, that sort of like disconnection with reality to numb myself. I wasn't just numbing myself with the marijuana, I was numbing myself with food, I was numbing myself on my couch watching TV every night, stoned, like this black, I considered it like a black hole, like I would basically, and I was productive, like I had really good jobs, I was successful at my jobs, I'd come home from work and all I wanted to do is disconnect and shut down that part of my brain. And basically disconnect with the TV, with Pa and just completely wash away whatever sort of emotional trauma I was trying to avoid. And the breathing, the breathwork, the cold, it forces you to sort of confront that part of your life. And you have to kind of sit with that and observe it and be aware of it. And just like, all right, there's definitely something you're avoiding here, what are you avoiding? And I had to work out myself for those three, four months leading the Peru because that stuff was gonna come to a head in the jungle, like whether or not I wanted to deal with it, it was gonna be something I had to confront in the jungle. So I confronted it for the three to four months leading up to it. And it put me in the right mindset and the right mental, emotional, physical place to go to the jungle and sit with it and process it and be able to sort of acknowledge what I was avoiding and why I was avoiding it. And I was ready. I actually got myself into one of the best shapes of my life. I was working for an anti-aging medical practice at the time, oddly enough, and was able to measure my body fat composition, I was measuring my skeletal muscle mat. I was doing a blood work regularly, like every three, four weeks, looking at my hormone, panel, my testosterone, my estrogen, my cortisol, all these levels and these biomarkers that were kind of subpar before this journey started, all moved to this very normal, like above normal levels. And a lot of the doctors said you couldn't do these things naturally, they were trying to kind of push their hormone protocols on clients and patients. And I said I was going natural, I wasn't gonna take any of their protocols, I was gonna figure this out. I was strict with the cold, I was doing 20 minute cold plunges every day, I was doing 20 to 30 minute sauna prior to the cold and post cold. And I was cleaned up my diet, I stopped all the substances, I wasn't a really big drinker, but I wasn't drinking either. My sleep changed dramatically, I went from no dreams, no deep REM sleep for, I don't know how many years to full on lucid psychedelic dreams, because I had stopped dreaming, you know. - Sleeping is like incredibly important. It's the time where our bodies can actually restore and our brains can restore. You know, I think it's awesome that throughout that journey you were also utilizing science as feedback, as like biofeedback to really see like the physiological changes that were occurring. And I want to get a little bit more into that, but before I ask a question on that, I find it so ironic how you mentioned that at the time you were really successful in your job and you liked your job and you were like accomplishing all these things, but at the end of the day, all you wanted to do was go home, disconnect and engage in those vices. Like you needed that escapism and it's kind of like the sad irony because it kind of, it goes to show that no matter how, quote unquote successful someone may look on the outside, that can't necessarily dictate how you feel on the inside or really like other things that are going on. So, you know, you may seem as if you have it all together, but behind closed doors, like even if you have the desirable job and you're living in the desirable city and you're with the desirable person, like even if you feel like you're checking off all those boxes, you could still be like wrecked on the inside, which is heartbreaking to think about. - Yeah, and I think a lot of people struggle with that and quick correction there, I was good at my job. I actually did not like my job and I didn't like, and we talked about this separately on a call. Like most of my jobs, I didn't, like I maybe liked in the first six months, first, you know, maybe not even a year, like most of the times like first four or five months and then I would always eventually become dissolution with them. And I always felt like I was not living up to my full potential. And that was part of going to Peru, was to figure out like that was kind of like, they give you, they tell you to come with sort of intention. And I, my intention was one to heal myself, but then two, to also figure out what my purpose was, like what am I supposed to be doing? Because no matter what job I take, whether I'm chasing the six, seven figure salary or I'm chasing the accolades at work or the president's club or this or that, like it never filled me up. And it never felt like this is what you're supposed to be doing. And until I've done, you know, and I've had some fun jobs, like I've had some really cool experiences. I mean, started a fashion line with my sister and we had really great success selling to like really big stores like Demon Markis or Ben Alfitters, head celebrities wearing our clothes, you know, I helped start, you know, a Miami office for this anti-aging medical practice. I worked in other startups in the health and wellness field, you know, so I had a lot of fun jobs on the outside, like you're saying, but on the inside, it never felt like this is what I'm supposed to be doing. This is my purpose. This feels like I'm, I'm where I'm supposed to be. And that's, it just kind of never resonated with me that in that deep way. It was always like I was chasing the paycheck or I was chasing the status. And it never, it never sat well with me on some level. - It's so valuable that you bring that up because a majority of my listeners are post-grad. And like, you know, our 20s, it's the time in which we're trying to figure all that out. And it can seem kind of scary to think that we may go through different types of jobs and different roles at different organizations that on paper, same amazing, but what if they don't actually like fulfill you or it bring you that sense of purpose? You know, would you say that throughout those different experiences that you had all served some sort of purpose to ultimately lead you to realizing, okay, like I need to make a pivot or these are things I actually don't feel energized by. Let me go and figure out what does bring me that joy in those endorphins. - Totally. And also like sometimes you need to try things out to know this isn't the right thing for me. This isn't the right relationship. This isn't the right job for me. Like you have to cross things off the list. Otherwise you'll never know. So sometimes you have to take those risks or take those jobs that you think are gonna fulfill you. And once you learn that maybe it doesn't take all the boxes or it doesn't get you excited to get up in the morning, maybe then you're like, all right, well then let's go to the next thing. And I was always good at that. Like and I don't know if that's a skill or not, but if I wasn't in a relationship that fulfilled me or made me feel like this is the right thing or a job that did the same where I felt like I was having the struggle to get up going in the morning. I wasn't long for that. That's something I've been able to do well in my life is if this wasn't the right move or this wasn't the right situation, we're gonna have to figure out the next way. And I was okay with starting over. And I think a lot of times people fear that that taking a step backwards. But I always found like if I take a step backwards now, I might take three steps forward in a year or two from now. And I mean even stopping what I was doing right before this current thing that I'm doing now, I mean I was working in tech. I had the six figure job that I'd always kind of lusted at. I was in Chelsea, I was living in this great apartment. I walked to work every day, I was friends with the CEO. Like I was hitting my quota every month. I was selling to big companies like Google, Facebook, and I had big deals lined up down the pipe. And I gave it all up to basically do something that I didn't know if it were not, whether or not it was gonna be successful. I didn't know if I was gonna, be able to sustain making it work and listen to it. All, I don't like everything happens for a reason. I like things happen and you adapt and you shift and you make it work. If I had stayed, I would have been let go. The pandemic, everyone at my company basically got let go and I stuck it out. I was able to land corporate clients, private clients, and figure out how to make this work. I think you touched on it earlier, too. The skills I'd learned throughout all the jobs that weren't the right fit still helped me today. Like, they're still part of who I am and what I offered today. Like, the relationships I've built, the people I've spoken to, just the colleagues I've had, all those different experiences and things. I mean, you know, it's kind of like you become a stronger version of yourself by having a number of different skill sets and having a different ability through those different processes. It's easy to get bogged down and experiences that don't make you feel good. Like, when you're unhappy at a certain point in your life, but I think to your point, it's so important to recognize that there's still strength in that. Like, there's still good in that because it brings you to like that next phase of your life. And people are very, you know, oftentimes like super risk averse. Like, it's scary to take that risk and not knowing how the outcome is going to shape out. It's scary for me to think about taking a step back because I don't know if that's going to bring me three steps forward. And I think it's important to cultivate some sort of skills where you can like have the confidence to do that because at the end of the day, you know, you have to recognize that sometimes you do need to take a step back to progress. Like, there's no other way to get forward unless you adjust in that way, which is it's hard to remind yourself that and it's something I'm trying to work on. But I'm so glad that you bring that up because I think especially right now when we're going through a lot of like transitionary phases in our lives, it can feel really difficult. Like you're being pulled in one direction and the other and not knowing if you're like on that right track, but just recognizing that throughout the course of your life, like you're going to be pulled one way and another and you have to just adapt to that. So I love that you bring that up. You know, I also wanted to touch on the point that you made around like preparing yourself for this ayahuasca trip in Peru. So when you had spent like those four or five months doing all the things that you had to do around like breathwork and cold baths and meditation, like really being disciplined in those, let's say, like non substance oriented practices. And then when you went to Peru and you actually did this ayahuasca trip for about five days, or like the five day experience while you were there, would you say that the actual psychedelics were maybe more powerful than the work that you were able to do pre-psychedelics or how did those two experiences compare in terms of like changing your physical and mental health? Yeah, that's a good question. And it's, they say often that the ayahuasca, the medicine starts to work once you agree to go. Like once you start and you commit to going, that's when the medicine starts to work. And in my case, I guess it did because of fear and that trepidation of going and getting rocked by the medicine, motivated me to get my act together. And I think there was actually a point, it was the night before I was going to fly to Peru. And I was going alone. Like my partner wasn't going to come with me. I didn't even ask any friends or any family like I was going alone. And I remember the night before I was going to fly out, I went to the standard my last night doing the cold and the hot and I was with my buddy Jim and he, he was like my, my, you know, my big support other than my partner during that whole process. And we run into this, this yoga instructor who, and he tells the yoga instructor, oh, my friend, obviously he's going to go to Peru, da, da, da, da, he goes, oh, we'll be careful. And he like put his hand on my chest, you know, it can be very dang. You kind of like got my head a little bit with it. And I remember that night. And I've been sleeping amazing. Like the best nights of sleep I'd ever have. I remember waking up the night before the flight in the middle of the night, which I hadn't done in months. I had sleep, sleep in the whole night through every night and all of a sudden I wake up in the middle of the night and I think I was, oh my God, you're going to be in the jungle in two days drinking this medicine alone. Like what are you nuts? Like all of a sudden, like, because I was like so, I was like Rocky mode, like Rocky for training in the mountains, like so mentally physically prepared. I was like, I was like shredded up. I was like in really good shape. And I was like, what are you doing? Like, just go to Poland and go meet Wim and like, because I was all in on the Wim Hof method at that point, I changed my life. So I was like, maybe I should just cancel this Peru thing and go to Poland and do the Wim Hof, like mountain climb thing. Anyway, I decided to go and honestly, the finite experiences in the ceremony are just part of the healing. The healing starts before you go and you're doing the prep. The healing is obviously during the ceremonies and there was a lot of breakthroughs for me there. But afterwards is when, to me, the real healing and work happens. I was journaling every day. I stayed with my practices, my breathing practices. I stayed with my cold and my heat practices. I kept my diets going and I just continued to heal and I continued to have like, I had a big emotional block. Like, I wouldn't let myself cry for all those years of numbing and I just kind of forced this like lodged ball down my throat just to block that like cry from coming out. And when I came back, I just, I would weep like at different things like in movies, reading back my journal, talking to my therapist, talking to my partner. I would just like lose it and it was like years and years of holding back tears, they came and they were, they needed to continue to calm because I had like not allowed myself that emotion. I had forced myself from, you know, childhood stuff and divorce parents and the whole deal to like not go there. And that healing needed to happen afterwards too. So it happened before, during and after and it continues to happen and I actually told myself when I got back, well, you're going to go every year back to the jungle and you're going to do this reset for yourself and I haven't been back in six years. You know, I wish I could go back. I wish I actually, this is the first, I'd say maybe it's like the pandemic or becoming a new father. I've had the urge to go back recently for the first time in like five years. It's something that I feel like you can't do regularly because it's so intense, but I can imagine like after having that kind of experience craving that at another point in your life. Yeah, a reset, like a total deep dive, like an audit of who you are at your core and what you're doing and what your purpose is and where you're going with it and how your relationships because there was a lot of purging that happens and everyone thinks the purge, especially like our Western sort of modern minds like, oh, did you, did you throw up? Did you do this? You know, honestly, the purge is like a lot of other things. A lot of things that you don't think about and when you come back, you purge. Like you find relationships that don't work for you and you cut them out and you say, you know what? This person's kind of been like an energy vampire from me and emotional vampire. Like, we're not doing this anymore. You stop. I love the term. It's true. An emotional vampire. I mean, yeah, people can really suck the life out of you and it's, you know, it's interesting like so much in our lives. We don't like bring attention to and when we just bury it subconsciously, like the minute you can unlock that, it's like the floodgates are open. I mean, I have not done anything remotely like an ayahuasca experience, but I did go get my yoga certification last summer and I thought it was going to be an experience where like I would just learn how to teach yoga. I thought it was going to be very practical and yes, there was definitely that element to it. Something I did not expect was like the amount of emotional baggage I had like released that I didn't even know I had and that was crazy. Like that was freaky for me to even think about like how much stuff I had kind of just like swapped under the rug without even thinking about and then like, you know, we would do certain yoga poses or we would, you know, do these like long yoga classes every day and through like holding a posture and like linking breath with movement and that, you know, as I've really developed that yoga practice, sometimes I would just like tear up like maybe the sounds kind of crazy, but like, you know, we learn about how emotions are stored in our bodies and then once you really experience that, you recognize like, wow, like we, just the way in which we like carry ourselves to like our mannerisms, the way that we walk, the way we carry our, our posture, especially our posture, just the way that you present yourself is this like blueprint kind of of things that are invisible that just kind of create your story that you don't even recognize are there. And so I can totally get, yeah, what you're saying. There's a lot of physical patterns between like people that have like, it's called Dorsal Vagal where they have this like bump in the back of their neck and they kind of like inch forward and it's like this emotional trauma that they carry in their body. And I mean, the amount of people that have lower back pain and, you know, there's a book called The Mind Body Prescription by Dr. John Sarno and it's like all and the body keeps score. There's a lot of literature out there and you know, my yoga teacher, my like, my one true love yoga teacher, Paolo Hudson, who's based in New York, he talked, you tell me about these yoga retreats that, you know, similar to what you're saying where people would go and they would sit in an ecopada raja carpatasana and pigeon pose and just ball and just lose it. Yeah, because the hips literally when you're like, and I'm pigeon pose. The hips, the so as all of it totally and I knew he wanted me to do like he would, we would always joke about that position and I said that like, true. traditional name like in honor of him because he always he just has the most beautiful voice and Pronunciation and he would say it and I like there'd be times where like he would I know he knows I was holding Emotions like the purge that I had I needed more like I still that's why probably the craving to go back But our bodies carry a lot and there are definitely ways to release it through Plant medicine movement breath work even in New York when I was living there. I would take a class I took the ones at the New York dance company called Gaga. It's a movement class where basically it's this This class where you just move in like these emotional ways and you kind of like real people release in the class Because you're you're allowing your body to move in ways that are primal and that are instinctual and it's just It's just free-formed dance class, you know in breath work too. I mean I've had a lot of people over the years really Lose it and let go in those breathing sessions. I recently did a big workshop in in Mexico for These CEOs from Wadla Haran and it was 63 CEOs for this YPO chapter and YPO's young president's organization It's pretty much like the heavy hitters within a city and Guadla Haran is you know a lot of heavy hitters 63 of them and there's two women there two women the rest men and this one woman During the breathing we had a sound healer doing sound and I was leading the breathing this one of these CEOs went Really deep and I could tell I was guiding them in the breathing come on and let's keep it going move Move the air through and she just kept breathing harder and harder and harder and she just pumped and It was like a waterfall. She could not stop crying for 20 25 30 minutes and it was just I mean it was a huge release and she was carrying a lot and You know luckily there's a really good sound healer there this woman Alessandra who came to help me And she held her and she just held her and consoled her for another 20 minutes after because all the men wanted to jump into the ice baths Right after the breathing and you know, it's hard to kind of manage 63 people at that time So she just held her and consoled her but that that kind of emotion really happens often in breath work Because you go to that state. I think that just shows the power of The breath and like when you actually bring your attention to it what it can do for you and so Going off of that I know earlier you spoke about how you're you know Wim Hof instructor and at that time you were really following the Wim Hof method So for my listeners who maybe aren't familiar with who Wim Hof is can you give a little bit of an overview of Who Wim Hof is like what the method is and what that specific type of breath work looks like? Wim Hof he's Dutch. He's from the Netherlands. He basically has sort of popularized a ancient practice of Tumo breathing so it's a it's an advanced style of breathing where you You breathe in a hard and fast way either through the nose or through the mouth though if you're new to the practice you should breathe through the nose and Basically you're up regulating your breathing so you're breathing in a high fast way and Within those breathing exercises you get into these deep sort of psychedelic or translike states But also something happens to your body's bio biochemistry where you're getting an increase in red blood cells You're increasing your adrenaline you're increasing your cortisol So your body's getting to this sort of ramped up state and then on the back end of that sort of hyperventilation You go into these deep long breath holes and in those breath holes Your body relaxes the body temperature changes heart rate changes blood saturation of oxygen in your lungs changes Basically your body just kind of goes into this kind of really deeply interesting state and Wim Hof popularized the method because he started breaking world records so this breathing technique He modernized but then he also brought in the cold So he started doing these feats like swimming under 80 meters of frozen ice water till his retina froze He climbed Mount Kilimanjaro in record time in his shorts with no aid of you know oxygen He ran a marathon through the desert with no water. I don't know how someone can do that Like I just I don't know if that's healthy for you. I mean he's clearly alive and is fine But he's alive. I mean he's alive. He's alive. It's not necessarily I don't know that it's healthy long term I think to get the notoriety that he's gotten and to get the scientists interested to study him and to perform tests that have popularized the method that was helpful Maybe he has done some some damage in some places like I know when he ran barefoot through the snow You know, he got really bad frostbite and almost had to lose his foot You know like I said he froze he froze his retina swimming under ice frozen water There's a safe way to do these practices and I think a lot of people get into these practices seeing the extreme stunts and The you know for example also the endotoxin study out of the Radboud Institute in the Netherlands They injected Wim Hof with variation of the coli virus and he was able to utilize the breathing technique that upregulated breathing to suppress His his basically basically sickness within his body So he used this breathing to boost his adrenaline to boost his cortisol and to create this Immune response that stopped him from getting sick then he trained other people to do the same thing because they thought maybe he was an anomaly so That really put him on the map the Guinness Book of World Records feeds put him on the map his kids are the reason why he has This following because they are the ones that run the business Wim Hof is like you know in a lot of ways kind of like a child and has a phone that's cracked and he doesn't do his own social media Like I'm not trying to like let let let the secret out of the bag if anyone's ever hung out with Wim He's like a kid like he's doesn't he's not in it for notoriety or or for money He wears the same t-shirt for a week and when it gets dirty and he spills like you know chocolate ice cream on it He flips it inside out. He's very low maintenance He's very low maintenance You know I had a friend who got certified the year before I did and told me he didn't even have a wallet He just carried like everything in an envelope like he just he just not he's not of like the modern world Right he's on a whole other level and he's got no No filter. He just kind of operates in this other place and I think that's I think that's the draw I think that's why people really gravitate towards them because they see this euphoric energy that has no Inhibitions no fear no worry of social pressures or cues I mean his kids told me that they used to get made fun of because he's they had the crazy dad who showed to pick him up and like You know barefoot you know at school, you know in the winter time so like it didn't it wasn't cool until it became cool for them You know like it was probably a hindrance and then all the sudden it became the thing or the trend when people started to see like the value of Of what he was preaching and you know if I'm understanding it correctly You're putting yourself in this like hyperventilative state through those intense like quick Inhales exhales, but then you do the breath holds and so you're countering that in a way which I find interesting because when you're inducing like an Hyperventilation through your breathing that causes anxiety and stress but then when you're holding your breath You're like actually in some sort of euphoric state I know earlier you mentioned that when you do the breath holds you feel the sense of calmness and peace and when I did the breath work with you a few weeks ago at first it was kind of like I was panicking. I was like am I gonna like I felt like I was drowning or I Had it held my breath for that long really ever and it was stressful and scary and I started to feel a little lightheaded but then as we did more of the practice it actually felt really calming and then I was like oh I can actually hold my breath through longer than I thought I could and I think once you hit that then those effects start to kick in where it's Really meditative really like when you're doing those breath holds so what happens You know and and specifically to you when you're doing the breathing and we you know when I when I do these zoom sessions or I work with people one on one We almost never hyperventilate because it is scary. It is dangerous in some sense for for certain people to do that and I used to do it and I used to hate it. I used to hate like Like that's how I used to do it because that's what I thought was right But I've learned since studying other breath practitioners and not and reading other literature Like the oxygen advantage or you know a lot of stuff from from Brian McKenzie and and a lot of the other people out there that are that are Really knowledgeable within this field is you have to Be calm and gentle with your breathing. You have to be slow with your breathing So when we do we do with jeez we start slow we do do breath holds at the beginning to Help you connect to your CO2 tolerance. So when you breathe in your breathing oxygen your lungs convert that oxygen to CO2 It's called the bor effect when you exhale you're releasing carbon dioxide which is CO2 CO2 is your stimulus to breathe so CO2 is the reason that we breathe 23 25,000 times per day you can go Minutes without breathing oxygen. It's fine your body can do that for a little bit CO2 on the other hand is something that's saying breathe breathe breathe breathe breathe all day long So for example if you wanted to test this you could take a big breath in You can hold your breath and when you start to get uncomfortable you could release just a little bit of air or CO2 to and you can continue to hold your breath. So that shows you that your body is trying to get rid of that CO2 in order to be comfortable to breathe. So with that in mind, CO2 being your stimulus to breathe, when you do whim-hoff breathing, what you are doing in essence is you are dumping CO2. You're releasing CO2 at a fast or slow rate, but you're releasing CO2 so you're going whew, whew, whew, whew, whew, whew, whew, whew, whew, whew, whew, whew, whew, and you're getting rid of that CO2. Your body is becoming more alkaline in that state because CO2 is acidic, oxygen is more alkaline. So you're becoming more alkaline because you're releasing this CO2, your pH balance is moving up, and then you can hold your breath for longer because you have a CO2 deficiency because there's less CO2 in your system. Your body is not getting that stimulus or that notification to breathe because there's no CO2 in there. So your body wants to breathe based off of CO2 in it. So by doing the prep breathing, the in, out, in, out, in, out, I'm basically releasing all this CO2 and putting my body into this very sort of alkaline state, whether you do it fast or slow, you can still go to that state, and then you can go into a deep long breath hold, which then will induce the mammalian dive reflex, which calms your body down. So the mammalian dive reflex is when you hold your breath, your heart rate starts to slow down because your body goes into this kind of deeply calm state. I'm leading a retreat in March for freediving, and I'm not a freediver, but we're working with professional freedivers, marine biologists that are going to take us to these cenotes in Mexico. And the first thing you learned with freediving is CO2 is good for you because CO2 is telling you to get your head above water and go back up to the surface and breathe. You do not want to have a CO2 deficiency in the water. Likewise, with the Wim Hof method, you do not want to do Wim Hof breathing in the cold, because you need CO2 to tell you to keep your head above water and not have an episode or pass out in the water, because you could can get layheaded. So the breathing in Wim Hof method and the cold exposure with water are two completely separate sides of the method. The breathing is supposedly done to prep your body to go into the cold later on. You don't do them both simultaneously. You separate them and there's a third pillar in the Wim Hof method. So it's the breathing, it's the cold exposure, and then it's mindset. And the mindset is kind of like the part that everyone doesn't really think about because you can't really show mindset on like social media, but mindset is actually probably like the secret sauce if you want to call it that because mindset is the thing that tells you to do the breathing, tells you to get into the cold and calm yourself down. It's just the kind of like the way you carry yourself with the cold with the breathing. Wim Hof breathing is this way to sort of create an alert state in your body, but it also creates a very calm state. So in a lot of ways, you could think of it like flow state, which is this marriage or mixture of parasympathetic and sympathetic. So you know, a lot of the CEO types, the professional athletes that I work with, they love flow state because it's like this dialed in focused, hyper focused, but calm state where you can get a lot done. You're creative and you're in the zone and you're it's like things are just kind of flowing naturally and it's your achieving that optimal level of you know, of output because you're you're being challenged like right at the amount that you need to kind of push you to get things done, but then the challenge is an overbearing where you like can't achieve flow. So it's just enough of that push. And then once you're there, everything kind of aligns like I think a lot of musicians also experience that creative love it. Yeah, exactly. I used to play the violin. I played it for over 10 years and I hated practicing because I hated being told what to do, but when I actually sat down to practice the violin and there would be times where I would just it felt like I wasn't even thinking about where the notes were just I just kind of knew where to go with the music and those were like flow like states for me. I don't even think I understood that when I was like 11, but that's what it was. It's a very intuitive state because you don't you don't understand and a lot of people like they don't get it until they maybe read a book like you know stealing fire and and doing things like you know like for example I do Brazilian Jiu Jitsu that's flow state like you're in this sympathetic state of like fight and you're alert and you're like you're dialed in but you're also like breathing and focused and you're trying to like problem solve at this very high level and you don't always get into it or but breathing the the breathing can put you into that state where you all the sudden you're like you're breathing hard or fast or slow or calm and you just started getting to this really calm mellow state and the the idea to start to circulate you get to this creative spaces in your right. Creatives love that. I mean I've worked with a lot of chefs, musicians you know fashion designers and it's a very unique state. It's not sustainable for long periods of time. It's sustainable for a certain finite period and then you kind of have to recharge, you have to reset and then you kind of can go back into it. You know that's why the breathing I think is is a really fun and accessible way to get into flow state because you can do that in the morning or at night. I mean mornings probably best so that way you can activate it and stay in that mode for a little while. Right. And like start your day off in that better headspace because I often find that the way I start my day is like how I feel like I'll end the day. Like if I start the day off on a good note and I feel composed and calm then I can more effectively conquer the day and I feel better throughout the day. So I would agree like doing these practices in the morning are probably more optimal and maybe it doesn't have to be something as intense as Wim Hof. Like maybe there are other breath work exercises that people can do. So you know my question to you here is like how can someone who is very much an obvious get into breath work in a way that's sustainable and in a way that they'll actually reap the benefits. Like physiologically, also mentally, emotionally, like holistically getting those benefits out of breath work. If someone's going to do it on their own and they're just going to try to access it on a day to day basis, I think finding a rate that's calming and soothing for the nervous system that slows you down. So you know I always recommend something that gets people to six breath cycles per minute. So six inhales, six exhales per minute. It's a five second inhale, five second exhale. It's probably the breath exercise or cadence that gets the most notoriety in terms of the science that supports daily breath work or meditation because it's just it's where the body gets into its natural rhythm. It's good for the mind. You know we talked about with sleep, how the sleep is resetting the brain. I mean that cadence can do the same thing. I use it to go to sleep a night. Some days when I have five in between a meeting, I'll try to breathe in that five in, five out, in for four out for six. You know same idea. So that to me is like the low hanging fruit exercise that can really jump start someone. And for a lot of people they might find it's hard to get a five second inhale in because their breathing is shallow and it's constricted and they're they're breathing a lot faster than they realize. So you know it's always helpful. I think when you're starting a practice, if you can find a guide or someone to help you just work through the initial steps of it just to get comfortable with the practice, Wim Hof has been like the tip of the spear for a lot of people to get into breath work because his notoriety, his popularity, I mean they just announced this weekend on social media that he's going to have a movie coming out with the actor from the handmade instale. I forget his name Joseph Bynes. Oh my god. I'm gonna have to see this. It's probably just because I feel like you can learn more about his story and then also kind of see and practice the benefits of breath work. He's got a great vice video too. That's what got me started. I mean if people are looking for the app, the app got a lot of instructors like me started. So that's a really fun way I think to get started with it. If you're someone though that tends to be more anxious and more stressed, I wouldn't recommend starting with that because that like you said earlier very eloquently is a way to induce more anxiety, that fast breathing. That's why even in our session we didn't we start slow. I don't ever have someone start a session and we go fast hard right away. We start slow. All my sessions start with a check-in. I like to see where the person's at for that day and how they're feeling. If they start telling me things like I didn't sleep well last night, my balls or this or that or I got a meal. I know we're going light and easy. It's like you just try to read the energy of the person but then there's also days where people are like home feeling great. I'm feeling awesome and you start to like you know like Gigi and I when we started our practice together, I mean we didn't breathe fast for the first two, three weeks until she started to slow down and feel better and then all of a sudden we can really start to like play around and go deeper into the breathing sessions. That's that's part of it too. Right maybe you get more comfortable with it over time. I mean during my teacher training we talked a lot about the importance of like belly breathing and like diaphragmatic breathing and really taking your time with those slow inhales like through your belly, then your chest or then your ribcage and then your chest and then as you exhale your chest, your ribcage and belly and so I think as you kind of go through those practices, even like we would do alternate nostril breathing like where you would put your thumb on your nostril and then your index finger on the other nostril and you would kind of go back and forth between one nostril and the other like it forces you to slow down and be a bit more disciplined with that. So I think there's benefits to like that type of breath work like that kind of pranayama that you can do maybe in a yoga practice where you can really slow down and like focus on the breath, the inhales, the exhales, like notice how it moves through your body. But then also if you're looking for maybe something that's more like energizing and you're a bit more experienced with breath work, you can move more into like the Wim Hof method. That's a great approach. It's important to know where you're at for the day. So in the sessions, like you start to like scan your bodies, you start with like, all right, this is where I'm at today. I'm tired. I'm feeling, you know, cranky, fussy, whatever. I'm going to take to something that just kind of relaxes me and puts me in a better mood. So in that sense, you start to know like today's a day for this, today's a day for that. Like there was months when I lived in New York and my yoga teacher was right around the corner at Chelsea Pierce where I didn't do any breath work. I just went to his class and we did enough pranayama in the class and we focused on our breathing enough. That was my breath practice. And then I go in the sauna and I breathe and I relax and I, that was it, you know, so you go through ebbs and flows. Right. And you can find what works for you too. So something that I want to try more is actually having a more like dedicated breath work practice or at least maybe the first step for me would be to incorporate more pranayama like into my yoga because I do yoga anyways as it is. So might as well latch on a new habit onto a pre-existing one. So maybe I start with like trying more breath work in my yoga practice in addition to some meditation. So I think there's ways to make it sustainable for everyone. And you know, I know we didn't touch on just the concept or the second pillar of Wim Hof, like actually submerging yourself into cold waters, something that I tried the summer was doing. The ice bath, the sauna back and forth between the two and I saw really amazing effects like I just felt less sore the next day from exercise and I felt really good in my body and it's, it also teaches you when you're like submerging yourself in freezing cold water, like how to regulate your breath. So it's not to panic and feel like you need to get out. So I think there is still some sort of like overlap between just general breath work and like being in the cold environment, but I'd love for you to speak a little bit on the like benefits of actually being in ice baths and like in cold temperatures. Yeah, totally. And it's a great point you bring up because the cold any stress, any high stress, any acute high stress, cold exposure, you know, for me, jujitsu, it changes the way you breathe. So in order for you to sort of like reap or receive the benefits from a cold practice, you have to slow your breathing down. You have to calm your breathing down. How do you do that? You breathe through the nose. You extend your exhales. So once you get into that calm, slow breathing state, your body will start to relax. You're actually going to a deeply parasympathetic state. You know, it increases vagal tone. So your vagus nerve gets activated and stimulated in the cold, which also helps to calm your body and put your body to a deeply relaxed state, oddly enough, because when you initially go into the cold, there's a boost of adrenaline. You're adrenaline, you're norup and efferent. You're noradrenaline spike. When you immediately get into the cold, your body says, and your breathing does that. And then all of a sudden, you slow your breathing down. Maybe you do a box breath. Maybe you do the five in five out in the cold, and that's when the real benefits start to kick in. So the benefits are a 250% increase in dopamine. And that's not just in that moment, it's sustained. There's also a boost of anti-inflammatory proteins in the body. So you get this lowering of inflammation. You mentioned it when you were training in body, you were getting less sore by doing the cold. Your body responds to it by lowering inflammation. There's also something called vasoconstriction that happens. So the blood flow goes from your hands and your feet. And you probably felt this when you're in body and you're in the cold. Your hands and your feet start to hurt. Like that's the part that really hurts and the sensitivity is heightened there. Because all the blood flow, all the warm blood goes to your heart, your lungs, all your main organs to protect the hub. Your body knows what to do. There are a lot of times when I lead people in workshops, private public workshops, I tell them, hey, you're going to go in here. And you've never done this before. Your body knows what to do in here because our bodies have evolved over thousands of years. For thousands of years, we lived outside in the cold. Our bodies are capable of extreme temperatures. We just don't do it anymore because it's not convenient and it's not comfortable. However, we can do it. Everyone can do it. You just have to trust your body. The mindset piece goes here. You have to slow your breathing down. And then that warm blood will rush to your organs and protect your heart, your head, all these areas and your hands and feet will be cold. But when you get out, all that warm blood will move back to the extremities. And that, the other constriction is really good for your heart. Yeah, it's like the evolutionary adaptation. I mean, one of my friends, Ia, that I met during my teacher training, when she started getting me into all the ice bath stuff because she would do it regularly, she said that when she is in those cold baths and she's sitting in there for maybe a minute, minute and a half, nothing too long just to be in there, she said that it was so peaceful when she could really feel the warmth of her body. When you actually slow down and slow down your breathing and you settle in the discomfort, you find peace and you find comfort and you find that through actually feeling the warmth that's within you. And I thought that was just so beautiful and something that I, it really is just struck, it struck something within me and I held onto that, saying for a while and then when I started trying it out and it, you know, the first time I did it, I was freaking out. I was like, this is too cold, like I need to get out. And I really tried to remember what Ia said, like, sit in there, slow your breathing, don't look at the clock, just tap into how your body is like operating in that moment. And then I started to feel this like rush of warmth, even though I knew my hands and feet were like literally about to fall off. I was so cold, but then I felt that beautiful warmth and it was, it was amazing. And then you get out and you go into the burning hot sauna and it feels like a warm hug and it was like amazing. Yeah, honestly, it's the best. I, I, I recommended to anyone and there's a reason why all these different cultures from around the world have all been practicing this, you know, you go to the Nordic countries, Finland, Sweden, Norway, they do it there. You go to Japan, you go to Korea, all these different countries have their version of hot cold therapy because it's a very healing practice and people have been doing it for thousands of years and our bodies crave a certain level of acute stress. Toxic day to day work stress isn't necessarily the best things for us, but the short bursts of acute stress with those large doses of dopamine are really good for us. So you sleep better those nights. That was something I noticed right away. I started sleeping better. Those cravings I had early on started to dissipate and my body started to find its natural rhythm again. And our bodies aren't designed for eight, nine hours on a day on screens, on the phones, on the couch. Our bodies aren't designed to binge every show that Netflix offers. Our bodies are actually designed to do sort of like these extreme things, but in short bursts. That's why the Wim Hof Method, I think in a lot of ways has taken off because here's this guy who's not like, you know, with a six pack ripped Instagram famous kind of guy, he's just a regular guy who's actually very accessible and very normal in a lot of ways. And he started doing these feats that people thought were impossible. And why would I ever go in the cold? Why would I go in a nice bath? I mean, that's all I heard for the first six months I started doing this. And then I started, you know, just got deeper into the practice and then I ended up getting certified. And then, you know, probably I probably guided over a thousand people in ice baths to this point. And it's like most people I'd say 90% have really amazing experiences in there. Yeah. And really enjoy the breath work. You would be surprised like how much you can accomplish or how much you can experience if you just simply open your mind up to the idea. And I think something that's so special around like health and I don't want to say health trends, but health practices, you know, let's say. Things that you can do to just boost your overall sense of satisfaction and well-being, it's enormous. Like the list continues on and on and on and something that I find really interesting is just recognizing that health is not a one-size-fits-all equation. Like there are different practices that work for different people. And I think it's all about finding what works for you and having that open mind and willingness to try and be adaptable and figure out like, you know, the recipe for your health. Because it extends far beyond those foundations that of course are important like having a good diet and getting proper sleep and exercise. Like those are the foundations and those are the fundamentals. And there's nuance within that. Of course, like there's things that you can try within that that can help boost your health. But beyond that, there's so much you can do to help your mind. And because when you can help your mind, you can help your body and vice versa. So on that train of thought, one question that I have for you and it's a question that I ask and I end every interview with is what is something that brings you a bit of endorphins every day? Right now it's being a dad. I mean, it's having an 18-month-old baby that says, "Papa, and when I finish my sessions in the morning and I go upstairs and she hears the door open and she goes, "Papa!" And she burrows down the corner of the kitchen and falls and that always kind of lights me up. And actually, it's like when I finish that last morning session, as you know, most of my sessions, I'm up at 5 a.m. So I go from 5 a.m., 5.30 a.m. with all my East Coast clients to like 7. 38 sometimes 9 a.m. and then I finish 9 a.m. and I close my laptop and I go upstairs and I take my like three hour break And she's always like super excited to see me and that that definitely gives me my boost of endorphins And it's it's not like nothing else. I've really ever experienced so it's pretty amazing It's unreal. There's no real ways to like describe it. I can't relate because I don't have a child, but I can imagine I mean It's that's another thing like that phase in our lives You know if my listener whoever's listening like you decide to have a kid at that point in your life You decide you want to be a parent that I think just brings a whole new meaning and purpose to your life Like when you become that teacher and you have offspring and you have like many years running around I I can only imagine like how beautiful of an experience that is yeah and for the non the non-parent listeners It's jujitsu like right now jujitsu. It's like the thing I Love it. It's it's one of the hardest endeavors. I've ever Come to and and it's it's putting myself into like high-level stress every time I walk in that place but I almost never leave without a smile on my face and Really I think I learn a lot about myself and in that level of stress and I think we all do I think it's a way for you to tap into That zone that you don't think you you should operate under all the time and you shouldn't but you when you get into it And you're so focused and you're just it's it's the only thing that matters in that moment And I think the more we can have those kinds of activities where I'm not looking at my phone for an hour and a half during that period of time I don't even care what email came in or what email didn't come in if I got this client or this client didn't come through like it's only What matters in that present moment and? It's pretty amazing though You know, it's it's definitely it's definitely a long it's a long journey It's nothing that I ever feel like I'll ever have figured out. I mean that's beautifully said Avi and some food for thought to land on here because You know we often think of stress as the devil and I definitely agree that like toxic stress is bad for us Like there's just so much unnecessary stress and noise in modern life right now that is very detrimental to our health But I love thinking about this idea around like acute stress actually propelling us forward and like fueling us and actually Bringing greater health in a way it ends in a way it can seem kind of counterintuitive But when you really understand the definition of acute stress and like what that looks like in practice I can totally see how it Can can really bolster our health and how it's actually completely different than the stress that we deal with every day That's toxic to our lives So thank you for sharing that I think it gives you know me a lot to think about hopefully my listeners as well And it's just been such a pleasure having you as a guest on the podcast Where can my listeners find you follow you on social media all the links. Yeah, so you can find me on Instagram at Aviloo avi.lu I post a lot about upcoming retreats and workshops on there and then my website is Greenberg.com avi gr e and b e r g.com And you can always reach out to me there if you have questions on breathwork with half-method You know workshops retreats anything anything really I'm sort of in open book these days too as well if people are on to just have a conversation that are interested in any of these practices I've actually gotten a lot of Interest lately in people that want to get breathwork certified or with half certified so you know talking to to you know People that are interested in maybe changing their career path and figuring out what what could be You know behind that door of becoming a breathwork at guide or instructor or Wim Hof instructor And I think it's cool. I think it's really interesting that a lot of people are gravitating towards these practices now and finding their true identities within those practices And they want to share that with their loved ones and strangers and and everyone absolutely maybe that could be an episode Part 2 changing your career path what goes into it and what are you gonna get out of it? Hey listen I you that's like my favorite conversation. You know that so Anytime Stella really there's a pleasure is honored to do this with you and I definitely hope we do another breathing session soon and Yeah, anytime you want to continue this conversation. I'm in. Thank you so much, avi. This was awesome Thank you for listening and remember to like rate and review this podcast on whichever listening platform you prefer Don't forget to keep spreading in Dorfins and find things that bring you in Dorfins every day See you next time