EP #61- Life Advice on Navigating Young Adulthood with Dr. Robi Ludwig, Nationally Known Psychotherapist

(gentle music) - We really need to trust the process that what shows up for us in part is what we need to experience. There are teachers everywhere around us and we need to maximize those learning moments in order to become who are meant to be. - Welcome back to another episode of Everyday in Dorfins. This week I have a very special guest on the show, Dr. Robbie Ludwig. Dr. Ludwig is a nationally known psychotherapist and an award-winning reporter. She received the 2020 Best of Manhattan Award in the Mental Health Practitioner category by the Manhattan Award Program and she's appeared on broadcast media since 1997 as a regular on nightline, CNN, headline news and the Fox News Channel. Dr. Ludwig is also an author of the book called Your Best Ages Now and she is a contributor on Fox's news opinion column Thrive Global and Medium. Dr. Ludwig and I had a great conversation this week on life advice for going through your 20s. We often see this decade as being something that's very glamorized and Dr. Ludwig gives us the lowdown on the reality of life in your 20s, the challenges that we face and she offers a lot of wisdom around things that she learned in her 20s and things that we can take into our own lives to feel less alone in the challenge of just navigating post-college transitions, starting out in the real world and dealing with this whole concept around trusting the process. So we get into all of these topics in today's interview. Super excited for you guys to hear this. Before we get into the episode, I have a brief message from my sponsor, Anchor. Hi, Dr. Ludwig, thank you so much for coming on to the podcast. Thank you so much for having me. We've been trying to get this date together for a long time and I'm glad we were able to make it work. Me too. And today we are here to talk about a topic that is very close to my heart, given that I am a 22-year-old. We're here to talk about navigating your 20s. And I think that our 20s is a decade that's often glamorized. And as I've now graduated college and have transitioned and continued to transition into the working world, I've noticed that the 20s is not as exciting and glamorous as it may seem. So I'd love to start off with talking about that. Like why is this decade glamorized when in reality, our 20s is actually a pretty difficult and challenging time? I think there is something about our society that idealizes you. And especially when people are older and they look back to their 20s, they're like, oh my God, I had no responsibility. I had my whole life ahead of me. So there is a lot of this looking back to an earlier phase of life. And with that, all of the challenges get forgotten in many ways. But there are crisis and challenges in every stage of life. And in part, that's psychologically necessary because it really helps us to grow and to become more resilient. But the 20s are very challenging. Kids are still at that state really young-minded, especially now. It's taking us all a lot longer to grow up. And so the 20s is really a pivotal moment where you're leaving college where everything is so structured. And now it's a time of freedom, but with that freedom comes a lot of anxiety about what choices to make. How does one figure out how to create the life they want to create? And it creates a lot of tension. Absolutely. I think that's such a great point around the difficulty around making choices. I think a lot of my friends-- I've had conversations with my peers, my friends, around the decision of, am I on the right path? Did I choose the right job after graduating? Am I living in the right city? And I think those can be really difficult choices to make. And it's hard to feel like you're doing the right thing. It's hard to have the confidence knowing that you're on the right path. It can feel really stressful and overwhelming. And I think we tend to really get ahead of ourselves as well when we ask these big questions. So what advice would you give to young 20-year-olds around navigating, am I on the right path, asking themselves those difficult questions? A really pragmatic way of dealing with that question is to figure out where you'd like to be. So break it down into a five-year mark. Where would you like to be in five years? Best-case scenario. Magic wand scenario. And then take a back step and say, how can I work towards this goal? And the reality is not all goals can be planned where it happens right on the mark. And I think that's the frustrating thing about life. And as you get older, you begin to embrace that movement and the messiness of life and realize you can be doing everything right. And sometimes you're on the right track, but it may not feel like it at the time, because you're not hitting those marks. With life, you just want to get on the right path in terms of the bigger idea. So if you want to be a professional, do you have to go to graduate school in order to make that happen? If you want to work on getting married, that's also like a job. People don't tell you that. They're like, oh, it's automatic. Well, not really. You have to think about what kind of partner would I want to be with? Who would that partner want to be with in terms of their choice? And am I close to being that person? So there are different choices we can make, but it's based on what we want to create. And so it's taking that final five-year step and saying, OK, how do I get closer to that person I want to be? That's a great point. And I think it also kind of brought to mind something else that I've been thinking about recently around how-- when you're in your 20s, once you graduate college, you're living in sort of like a three-dimensional world. Like you can go any which way, down any path that you want to create for yourself. Whereas up until that point, kindergarten through college, like the end of college, it's very structured. You know that you're going to school K through 12. And then you go off to college and then you get a job. And it seems like you're hitting these traditional milestones. But by the time you graduate, nothing is so traditional anymore. You could really go any which way that you choose to go. And I think that can also feel quite overwhelming because it's not like you're living your life against some sort of predefined structure. So when you're thinking about those milestones that you want to hit or you're thinking about those goals you want to achieve in five years, how do you work backwards from that to really create some sort of structure or something that can signal to you, hey, I am actually moving in the right direction to achieving what I want for myself in five or 10 years. It's such a great point, Stella, because no longer are you getting like, you got an A on this test. You know, in life, it doesn't work like that. Where you make a step and you're like, oh my God, an A. This is fantastic. There's something to be said about trusting the process, which is really, really true. And to understand there are many roads to getting to where you want to be. And if you're trusting the process and know you are where you're meant to be, and there, you really need to learn from where you are. So every experience is probably meant for you to have that bad job, that bad boss, the good boss, the bad boyfriend. You know, we really need to trust the process that what shows up for us, in part, is what we need to experience. And of course, we always want to try to make smart choices for ourselves. And it's a little bit like how we choose to eat healthy, right? It's being very conscious of, is this choice good for me? Will this make me feel good? Will this help me get to where I want to go? Not that we need to be deliberate in every aspect of our life. But I think it really is helpful to be aware that there is a process. We have to trust the process. Bloom where you're planted. Grow where you are. Learn from those around you. There are teachers everywhere around us. And we need to maximize those learning moments in order to become who are meant to be. Someone once told me that everything in this life happens for you. This was a piece of advice given to me. And that really resonated with me because when I thought about it, it reminded me of this Buddhist principle around non-attachment and not fighting attention or creating friction between what's actually happening and what you want to happen in your life. Like instead, adopting the mindset that everything in this life is for you instead of against you is such a powerful phrase to me because when I-- start to think about that. I was like, okay, maybe something didn't go as I hope for it to be, like, it didn't go as planned. And instead of being super upset about that or feeling like it kind of threw off my schedule or finding tension with that, I've tried to adopt the mindset that like, oh, that's okay. And that's fine. I can move past it. And it's actually for me. It's going to benefit me in some sort of way. Like, I may not see it now, but down the road, I might see it. And the way that that piece of advice in particular was phrased to me, really just hit it home. Like, it really stuck with me. And now it's something that I'm trying to do in my day to day life is like, have this mindset shift around when things tend to get chaotic, that it's okay that things are happening that way. And I can view it as something that's actually good for me instead of something that's going to destroy the progress that I've made or is going to kind of bring me onto a different path. And I think that's just been a really powerful phrase in particular for me. So it's interesting because all of these pieces of advice, I think, resonate at different times and depending on how it's said. I love that you're so wise because that's absolutely right. It's like we live life moving forwards, but it can only be understood looking backwards. And that is just so true. And if you're lucky enough to live a full life, you really can look back and say, you know, I understand why this horrible boss was in my life and how that was life changing in a good way. You know, or even the bad boyfriend, you know, all of life is a lesson. And we need to learn those lessons in order to move forward and to grow and to refine who we are, to make choices that work for us. And it's a really important concept to embrace. I think there's power and pain. And one of the things that does concern me is when people try to talk themselves out of feeling pain. So while I think it is really important to understand that there's a purpose in everything that we go through to really have that full experience, feel the pain because pain is a part of life. It's not good or bad. And in some ways, it's the best teacher for us. It can really help us understand what works for us, what doesn't, and what is healthy. And you know, if we look at life as one big life lesson, then we can truly embrace life without getting caught up in feeling victimized. And it's very easy to feel victimized and feel sorry for ourselves and to feel like life is just not rigged in our favor. And it's okay to have moments like that. But then there's something to be said about saying, okay, I had that feeling, I've embraced it. Now it's time for me to get up and take action just that next right step. It's a phrase that's used a lot in AA, but it's a wonderful metaphor for life. Sometimes all we can do is that next right step and that's good enough. This also reminds me of a previous guest that I had on the podcast who was talking about the distinction between pain and suffering. And he mentioned that pain is inevitable, but suffering isn't. And a lot of the pain that we feel is actually self-inflicted and that's suffering when we ruminate on the pain and when we, when we, you know, wallow in it and we, and we really focus our attention and our energy towards that pain instead of using it as a way to propel us forward or as a learning experience. So I really love that you bring that up because pain is going to always be there. It's always going to be present. It's part of life like you mentioned. And so think the question here is how can we utilize that pain in a productive and way, in a way that actually moves us forward in life instead of holding us back and self-inflicting more pain and sorrow and struggle on to us. It's kind of like the second arrow metaphor. And I think like this Buddhist philosophy I learned about in a mindfulness class in college, like the second arrow is the self-inflicting pain that we experience. And that's where a lot of suffering happens in our lives. So I find that to be a really interesting concept, but you know, how can we move past pain in a way that just brings us to the next part of our lives. You know, we all have to some degree or another self-destructive tendencies, right, where we do things that cause us pain. And I really do think that's where therapy can come in. You know, where you work with somebody that you admire, who can help be that other observational wise piece who can point something out to you so that you begin to look at your life through different eyes and through a new construct. And so while it's wonderful to be self-aware, when you're young, to be able to go into therapy, to include mentors into your life, you know, the mentors in our lives are few and far between. So when we find one, it's really important to embrace having that person and learning as much as we can so that we at one point can be a mentor for others. And so it's really a process of allowing yourself to not know, be okay with that, and learn from those around you. This is the time when you're young and in your 20s to learn from those who have something to offer you because it speeds up the growth process. One of the things about your generation is that you're so open to mental health concerns and therapy is no longer considered something to be ashamed about. And I've seen people in my own personal life who never made therapy okay for themselves. And so all of their social anxieties and issues that they had sadly stopped them from living the life quite frankly, everybody thought they should have lived, which was a happy and rewarding life. And therapy because you're looking at your life within export and that person wants for you what you want for yourself. It just, it really is a way to speed up the process of helping you get to where you want to be. I also think it's a new perspective as well because we can get so stuck in our own ways and we can become so narrow minded. And you know, when we're living our lives, we're seeing it through our own perspective. We're seeing it through our own eyes and that can make it even more difficult to take a step back and have a more objective viewpoint. So that you can grow and you can take those lessons or know oftentimes I think that when you have a mentor figure or a therapist or someone in your life who's there to help you in that way, they can kind of spot out patterns in yourself that you may not even be able to realize at the moment because you're so hyper focused on feeling whatever emotion you're feeling or going through whatever experience you're going through. So it's hard to kind of take that step back and I agree with you. I think my generation is doing such a great job around helping to break the stigma around mental health and normalize therapy. And you know, it baffles me that it's taken this long because when someone has a physical ailment like a broken arm or a sprained wrist, you go to the doctor and you maybe get a cast or you you know you take medicine and it's totally acceptable to get treatment for physical issues. But what happens when you know maybe you're suffering with anxiety or depression or you're just having a really tough day like there should be support there as well. And what's happening in your head and in your mindset and your mental health directly impacts also your physical well-being as well. So it's really integrated and it's very holistic. So it's great to kind of see how my generation is valuing that and understanding that mental health plays an enormous role and our overall well-being. It's very, very true. And it's very hard to see reality when you're worrying about yourself and stuck in your own head. So I think that is also a component and there's beauty in being able to see yourself through somebody else's eyes, right? To somebody else who believes in you who can see the path you're going on and where you're going to get to before you can even see it yourself and and all of these people help us to really become the person we're meant to be. And I think in the 20s it's a time to say yes you should certainly be proactive in terms of maximizing your opportunities and pursuing what you want to pursue. But then there's also that paradoxical component to life where you also kind of say let it be, you know, I'm doing what I need to be doing. I'm in the right place. I'm where I need to be and if I'm not I'll figure out how to get there. Somehow, you know, affirming to yourself, you're doing what needs to be done. So it seems like we're trying to strike this balance between maximizing opportunities for ourselves, you know, putting ourselves in the best position possible to give ourselves every opportunity as we can. But then also at the same time taking a step back and affirming that we are in the place that we're meant to be that we're, you know, we can be happy with where we're at and we can trust that this is the right place to be. And I think maybe this goes back to your point around just trusting the process. And this is a term that I've heard throughout my entire life and, you know, in various situations where I've had self-doubt, you know, my friends, family would say, you just have to trust that things will work out. You have to trust the process. And sometimes it's so much harder to do. It's so much harder to believe that and to bring that into practice. So when you say, trust the process, what are some concrete steps that we can take to actually do that in practice and bring that into our own life? It's such a good question. And I really think that people who achieve that extra magic, even having kind of a sense of well-being, or those people who can incorporate spirituality into their lives. And not ritualism, right? But the component of religion that reminds us that there's something bigger than ourselves, that although we think we can create every step that's going to happen in our lives, that there are forces that are also beyond us, that also support us as well. And so if you can remind yourself of those truths, really, I think that's tremendously helpful, you know, that spiritual component. And people who live in that world in both reality and understanding spirituality really can achieve so much because it's believing in what you don't see right in front of your face. And sometimes we can't see the things that are working in our behalf, but we need to trust that they are. And we just need to work along with those forces so that everything is working together. That is such a great point. And it kind of reminds me of how, you know, oftentimes when we're in a situation that we're stressed about or we're confused over or it's causing us some sort of, you know, issue in our life at the moment. And then when you look back on it, you can kind of rationalize and say, oh, yes, this makes sense. Like this is actually what I need it at the time. And it's helped me to grow and brought me to this point in my life. I think maybe we have to trust that in the future, we'll be telling ourselves that narrative. And so it might make the present a bit more bearable. And it might allow us to feel a bit less anxious and to actually not attach ourselves to the things that we want so badly or to the things that we want to work out in a certain way. Like we can actually just kind of let go and go with the flow. I mean, there's no other better way to put it really is just really to kind of surrender to that experience and let it naturally happen. Right. Like I think it's always a working with, right? It's two components working together. We always want to be working so that our life brings us the most joy. And also so we can become the person we're meant to be so we can get back, right? Because if we achieved happiness, if we achieved a sense of success, if we find what we're meant to be doing in life and we're passionate, then we can add to other people's lives. So they kind of really work together. And I think that is really a perfect way to be because you can relax a little bit and say, you know what? I'm doing what I should be doing. I can't always see everything I need to be seeing. But I trust myself that I will work towards becoming. And that's an ongoing process in life. Life long learning. Exactly. Life long learning. But as you get older, life feels good to be my age. And your mom and I are the same age, you know, your parents are the same generation. You've learned a lot of lessons. You know who to spend time with because they bring you joy. You know what projects inspire you. There's a sense of wonder in pride in raising children and who they become and just having that sense of awe. You know, we learn from our children too that, you know, children want to be like us, but we also want to be like you guys. So it's like everything that happens can be magical if we choose to see it through that lens. That yeah, I totally agree. And I think, you know, every single phase or decade or in our lives, bring about new learning opportunities and kind of prepare us for the next chapter. And I know that you're also an author and you've written a book around how, you know, when you're in your 40s or 50s, like the time is actually now, like the time is now at that point in your life to actually feel like you are young again. And there's a lot of value in being in that time period in your life where you can actually kind of take a hold of what it's like to be in your 40s and 50s and have a newfound sense of curiosity and wonder and also youth in a sense once you've hit maybe like that middle aged portion of your life. So it seems kind of like it's also circular as well. Like once you hit that age, you can also still kind of tap into the feelings that you have in your 20s as well. One of the things that's so interesting because when I was interviewing people for my book, I would ask them that they would want to go back to their 20s. And, you know, what people would say was like, Oh, I wish I had the metabolism of my 20s or maybe I wish I had like the skin of my 20s, but nobody wanted to go back there emotionally because when you're in your 20s, there is this feeling like you have to prove yourself and get approval from others. And that that is somehow validating and increases self esteem. And that is one of the biggest emotional challenges for those in their 20s. They feel like they need to prove something and it's like you're always in this space of kind of being judged either in the dating world or in the work world. And once you get to midlife, you're like, you know what? It's not like these other people know more than me. You can't avoid being judged. And, you know, I know who I am and if someone does like it, well, they can just walk away. And there's such freedom in that in knowing that. But again, it's like in order to get to this space, you have to pay your dues in your 20s. And then it gets easier in your 30s and your 40s because you have to be able to have life experience and you're better able to make sense of the world. I can definitely see that, especially when you hit that point in your life, or it's kind of liberating to not care what other people think about you or to care less. I think that's really the secret sauce, like to just be fully confident in knowing who you are and accepting that and also accepting that you don't want people around you that that can't celebrate who you are and, you know, what you can bring to the table. It's life is too short to kind of waste your time pleasing others in that way or keeping people around that are actually bringing you down and can't fully accept who you are and every quality about you. Yes. And so that's something that will become more clear as people in their 20s get older because there's still so much to learn from so many people around you. And it's really important. They don't necessarily have to be a mentor, but to look at people who you think are living life right that are a little older than you and to ask them questions, how do they achieve what they achieved? Or just to learn from those around you who seem to have gotten life right according to you and what you want to achieve. And there's something really fascinating about learning from others that you observe and incorporating some of those qualities into yourself because we don't need to reinvent the wheel. The wheel's out there. We just need to borrow some tips. I like the way that you put that and that's, you know, very sound advice. I want to shift a little bit into talking more about, you know, your experience as a parent and also a therapist. So I know you have a son who went to elementary school with me back in the day of PS6 and you're also, you know, a parent, your mother and you are a therapist. And so my question here is, you know, how has your experience as a parent to a young adult my age, the same age as me? How has that informed your beliefs and practices as a therapist while giving advice to other young adults? Such an interesting question. And I actually think it's my training as a therapist in some ways that helped me to be a better parent or at least I'd like to think so. And I suppose just, you know, there's an empathy. A lot of therapy is being able to kind of help your client embrace a certain vision of truth that they may not see and providing them tools in order to help navigate for themselves. So while I can love my patients and feel connected to their process, there's a certain objectivity that I can incorporate because you need to as a therapist. You know, when it's a child, you know, all parents and all mothers have guilt. You can birth your child and then you can get birth to guilt. And you just want to do everything that can make your child succeed and be happy and not have any challenges in the world. while you also know that's not really your job. Your job is to help prepare your child to deal with the challenging world, to be resilient. But I would say the one thing that I'm very aware of when I parent is the importance of not shaming your child. You know, it's very important, I think, to raise kids who know they can turn to you. While knowing they're not going to share everything with you, to communicate that they it's safe to share a frustration, to share a sadness, and to be able to say and position words in a way that can be incorporated. So I'm probably too soft as a parent, but that is certainly how I try to parent. In a way that understands life is challenging, they're going to go through emotional challenges and professional challenges, and to build up a belief in themselves and a resiliency to withstand the messiness of life. I really like how you said that the purpose of being a parent isn't to give your child a challenge-free life, and of course parents want their kids to be happy and healthy and have everything they want in the world. But I love how you mentioned that. Really, the reality of the world is the complete opposite. There's going to be tons of challenges and struggles and hardships, but the job of a parent is to prepare your child to face the world, like that preparation. And so what tools can you give them? How can you foster a healthy and safe and secure environment for them where they feel like they can come to you with anything? And so I really like how you redefine parenting in that way, because it also brings this sense of realness to understanding how the world works and how, as a parent, there's only so much you can do to take off the burden and create a challenge less life for your child as you possibly can. And if you raise your child with this idea that they're the most fabulous thing on the planet and they should get everything that they want, immediately, it's a tremendous disservice. And it's raising that child to actually feel disappointed in life, because nobody's going to be your mother, and want everything to be perfect for you and think you're perfect. That's the mother, right? We think our kids are fabulous, even though they're not perfect in that, they deserve everything. But in the real world, I think it's much more beneficial to say, sometimes your best teacher will be, for example, the teacher who's not nice to you and doesn't give you an easy time or a fair grade. You know, sometimes that's a much more important lesson to learn so that it doesn't devastate you in life or make you bitter in life, right? It's like acknowledging just the truth of what is, and sometimes you're going to have a moment where you feel like the smartest person in the room, and sometimes you're going to feel like the dumbest person in the room and embrace all of it. Exactly. And it kind of goes back to your point earlier around recognizing that there's a lot of value to the hardship that we face, like recognizing that it's some point in your life, it's going to benefit you in a way that you maybe you can't see now or you'll be able to better see in the future. So it kind of goes back to this sentiment around just developing that trust. And I think that also has to, you know, it comes hand in hand with building a sense of confidence in yourself and being compassionate towards yourself. And that's why I think, you know, the realm of therapy is so fascinating because when we're talking about personal growth in our 20s, there's so many different avenues we can go down. There's practicing self-compassion, there's gratitude. You know, there's just so much within the umbrella term of just what falls under growth and personal growth. And so as a therapist, I'm sure there's tons of different strategies or practices. Maybe you recommend to your clients to build that sense of confidence and the ease in their day to day life. And so I'm wondering if there's anything that comes to mind right now that you would want to share with my listeners. When I think about my patients, it's like, you know, being a tailor for the emotions, right? It's each person needs something slightly different. But I think there's a lot to be said about, you know, writing down what you'd like to achieve and what you need to do to get there. And who are your turn to people? Because we need them. We need our guides. We need someone who can support our process and is on our side. Because we're not living life alone. We're all dependent on others. And to make sure the people that you are depending on are the right people. That is very, very important. I totally agree because another thing that I learned in one of my classes at school in college was around the strong predictor of our well-being is the strength of our interpersonal relationships. And you want to feel like you can trust those around you and feel like you have strong friendships and people that you can fall back on. And so I love what you mentioned around, you know, thinking about who you want to surround yourself with because that's so important. And those are the people that, you know, do want the best for you and want to help you achieve your goals and want to help grow alongside you and help accelerate your growth. And I just think that's really good advice. And it's something that we can all do. And we don't really need a lot to do so. It just is a matter of sitting down and taking some time to self-reflect, grabbing a notebook, a pen, a piece of paper, and just writing down, you know, your values and thinking about, you know, who in your life aligns with those and who doesn't and then setting those boundaries. We all know something true about ourselves, right? Some really positive aspect about ourselves that works in the real world, whether you're conscientious, whether you're thoughtful, whether you can light up a room and to kind of center on that truth on what you know to be true about, you know, matter what. What is true about me, no matter what? Whether it's, I never give up or I'm very smart at figuring out what direction I want to go in life, you know, something that's true about you so that you can start to build up confidence with yourself because ultimately you will always have a relationship with yourself. That will always be the case. So you want to make sure that you can trust yourself and it starts by really knowing what is always true about you that works to your advantage. The other thing I would say is really important for people in their 20s to know and learn and this was kind of a hard one for me to conceptualize. Take nothing personally. You can take it seriously but don't take it personally because when we put ourselves in situations where we feel rejected or not chosen or not good enough, you know, just remember that when people make choices, it's not personal or if people act badly, it's not personal. They're going through their own stuff. It feels personal but it's not and I think once we can understand that and really incorporate that into our being, it's just a nicer place to be. That is such incredible advice and something that really resonated with me in this moment because I think that I fall victim to that. I take things personally and there have been instances in my life where I've started to realize it actually is nothing to do with me. It has to do with the other person entirely and whatever they're going through and whatever headspace there and at that moment. I think that's such valuable advice to hear and alongside everything else you've shared today. Thank you, Dr. Ludwig, for bringing all of this wisdom to the table and sharing all the life lessons you've learned and strategies that young adults can adopt in their day-to-day life with my listeners. It's been such a pleasure having you on the podcast. My final question for you is centered around happiness and it's a question that I ask every guest that comes onto the show. What is something that brings you a bit of endorphins every day? My work. I love what I do and I'm so glad I'm not an accountant. We all need accountants but if I had to do something with numbers and number crunching, I'd be miserable. But I very fortunate that I love my job and it's the way my brain works and it gives me a lot of pleasure. So if you can find something you love, it's a wonderful gift in life. I agree and I think also if you find something that you love, it feels like you're never working a day in your life. That's the goal I think. Well, there are always some aspects of the reality of your job. There's always going to be something that you wish was not there but I think in general [BLANK_AUDIO] your position in the right place, it just feels like you're using your brain in the right way. And that's a real gift to be able to achieve. Well, I think that's something that I hope to achieve in my life is finding that same sort of pleasure and fulfillment in my work or whatever I choose to do in the future. So I think that's it's a good reminder to have and just something to be cognizant of is thinking about, you know, what do you want to do professionally that brings you that sense of joy? And how can that kind of be infused in every sort of, in every aspect of your life? So thank you for sharing that. Thank you again so much for coming on to the podcast. Where can my listeners find your social media and follow you? People can find me on Instagram at Dr. Robbie Ludwig. It's drroviiludwig. And if you Google me, you'll see my website, which is the same. Just go to drrabiledwig.com. And I would love to have your listeners join me every once in a while. I'll just kind of state these truths on Instagram and Facebook and also have a show and a podcast people can listen to as well. Thank you so much. Thank you and it was such a pleasure. Thank you for listening and remember to like, rate and review this podcast on whichever listing platform you prefer. Don't forget to keep spreading endorphins and find things that bring you endorphins every day. See you next time.