Ep 602 - Future Man (feat. Kevin Ashton)

- Wow, wow, wow, Wes. - Hey, what's up? What's going on, everybody? I'm already fumbling over my fucking words, dude, I suck. I'm here with Kevin Ashton. How you doing, man? - I'm good, how are you? - Pretty good, so how would you define yourself? Obviously, author, futurist, futurist. - Futureist. - You think you're old now? - Oh, come with you, yeah. - What? - 57. - 57. - 57? - I'm not too far behind, I'm 40. - Oh, that's young. - 40, I think 40 is kind of you. I still feel like a boy. There's never, the switch has never occurred to where I'm like, a little bit, I feel like a man. - I got in the grocery store that planned the music I don't to when I was a kid. - Really? - That makes you feel old. - Oh, when it's in the grocery store? - Yeah, it's like the music now. - Yeah, yeah. - Let's get out of the queue, or whatever. That was old. - So, what was your music back in the day? What was your go-to? - Oh, I was a jazz funk guy. - Really? - Yeah. - Jazz funk. - Like I was like that. - It was a British name for R&B, basically. So like mid '80s, it was like Lucid Van Dross. - Ooh, you're a smooth brother. - Oh yeah. Old-working class kids in London. - There you go, nice. - The posh kids liked, you know, the punky stuff, but we were. - So I gotta ask you then, is it true? 'Cause I have a friend who's from London and he loves soccer. - Okay. - And I, you know, naturally, in an America, soccer's looked at as a sport kind of for girls. You know what I mean? - Not so much now though. - Yeah, not so much more. - I was trying to explain to him when I grew up, it was like, we ever went and played football. That's what we call American football, football. And I was like, you know, I was just kind of getting under a skin. I was like, it's kind of for like weak guys and girls. And he was like, nah, because I played rugby. He's like, rugby's for the posh boys and he was. - That's true. - And so it's true. - Yeah. - Rugby's such a more brutal sport. Why is it for the posh boys? - It's just the way the school system. I mean, I was like, it was suggested that I go to like the posh school in town. But they didn't play soccer, they played rugby. And that was just, I was like, 11, there was no way. - Really? - I was going to school but it didn't play soccer. - So it's kind, okay. So it's almost like, over there, it's like, like if someone played water polo over here, that would be very powerful. - Yeah. - Or like lacrosse maybe? - Lacrosse isn't very, it's not posh. - Yeah, it's, yeah, I can see that. - It isn't in New England, I feel like. - Yeah, you know, you're right. - Yeah, lacrosse bros are, I would say, borderline posh boys as well. - So cricket and rugby are like the posh. - I feel ashamed of playing the posh sport. I thought I was flexing on 'em, here's the guys for posh boys. - But you could play soccer on the street corner. - Yeah. - You know, you toss down your sweaters and you got a ball in your way. - True. - You can't quite do that with rugby, you know. - Yeah, you'd have to play like touch. - Yeah, you'd be like slamming on that street. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Well, shit, you're right. I was hoping I would, he would get overturned but that's completely true. - Yeah. - Dang. - Well, all right. - Thank you for coming to the podcast. So, okay, so futurist, how do you get the futurist title? - Oh, so that's like a thing, like you can't study at school, right? There's no like major in futurism. - I mean, it's not a word I use about myself so much, I guess, but yeah, I mean, I studied a lab at MIT. - Okay. - In the late '90s, that's why I came to the US and like I had this idea that I called the Internet of Things. - Yeah. - And everybody thought, what the hell is that? It's crazy and they were interested in like the dot com boom and everything, but you know, we got lucky and our research did well and now the internet of things is everywhere. So you kind of, I guess when you have a stupid idea and it comes true, you move from being like an idiot to a futurist. - A futurist, that's awesome. - Oh, it's funny because I watched a video and the origin of the Internet of Things, you know, which we'll explain in a second because I always heard that term and I, there's something about it. I'm like, man, I love that term. I had no idea what you were talking about. I just like, I was just like, it's like the internet, I had this nebulous idea and I had them like, it's like the internet and just fucking stuff and you know, I didn't know what it exactly was. You came up with the term, you're pitching a thing for Proctor and Gamble, right? I saw that and you, it sounded like you kind of just like, pulled it out of your ass. You're like, I want to do it. I wanted to, like, because you wanted to what? Like make them use the internet for their supply. - It was the mid '90s. - Yeah. - And like, honestly, it sounds crazy now, but the senior executives didn't even do email. Like you sent them an email and it came back in the internal mail. Most people want to know what the hell that is, but like a special reusable envelope. Their secretary had printed it out and they'd like write a reply to your email. Like that's how technical these guys were in the mid '90s. And then suddenly they heard about the internet and it was kind of like the thing you had to know about. - Yeah. - So like, I already had this idea for like, like putting chips and things in the product so we could know where they were, but they didn't get in that. So I figured if I could put the word internet in there somehow. Then, you know, that'd be interesting. - And then just tacked on of things. - Things, kind of like, I mean, really, like, what am I going to call this PowerPoint presentation? How about this? - Internet of things. - And here we are now 30 years later. - Yeah, that's cool. 'Cause then like that idea for the presentation became almost like a career launching point. - Oh, it did, yeah. - That's insane. - And I have to pretend like it was like some real stuff. (laughing) The best you ask about what it's the entire thing is. If you had a Telly Dildonix, Telly Dildonix. So have you heard of it? - Telly Dildonix? - Yeah, I have no idea what that is. - This is my favorite. - People say, "What's the internet of things?" I say, "Telly Dildonix." It's the internet of things of sex toys. - Oh, okay. - Like, vibrators, you can like, turn on from like the internet and you wear in the world. - Oh, the vibrating butt plug. - Yeah, yeah. - The vibrating it. - But like, you know, through Wi-Fi - So that's how you define the internet of things. You're like, that is one of the first killer apps of the internet of things. So they're always the first adopters, everything. And just to explain it, 'cause again, I feel like if you're, it's a similar idea than you think. It's just using attaching sensors to things that are connected to the internet and then can bring in information. - You're plugging the world into the internet. - So here, did you come up with that idea or are you just describing the practice to these guys and you coined the term? - I was one of, like, there was a small room for the people who all came up with similar ideas about the same time. But like, the internet was new. It was dial-up, it was kind of crappy. - Yeah. - You know, you would have graphics really or anything. So the idea of using the internet for like anything past like email was kind of on the wild side of things. - Yeah. - So yeah, but like, plugging the real world into the internet so you knew where stuff was. So like, you could have things like self-driving cars that like know where they are and are communicating with your phone and stuff like. Yeah, and this was before Wi-Fi. - I'll do, that must have sounded insane in '90s. - Oh, it did. - 1995. - Yeah. - People thought it was, it was like, maybe '97, but like, yeah, people like, what the hell? This is why it caught the internet of things. - True. - 'Cause like, at least I could, they wanted to pretend they knew what the internet was. - Yeah. - So you just like ride on that. - That's pretty cool. So the whole idea was you, you know, back in the day, you'd have these companies or advise them to attach basically just sensors to regular objects. So then those sensors can then gather data. Which basically, and this was before the smartphone then. - Oh yeah, just way before the smartphone. - Yeah, this was like business systems. Like, we got a lot of money from the defense department 'cause, you know, you go to war. - Yeah. - You gotta have enough stuff. - Yeah, we're the hell my bombs. - Yeah, we're the hell I put those bombs. - The bombs is one thing, but like, you know, start the cans and body bags, bibles, you know, toothbrushes, all that stuff. - You gotta know where it all is. And so, you know, that was one of the first, like, obvious applications. It was just like logistics. - Yeah. - That's where all the money came from to fund it. But yeah, that in a few years later you got the smartphone and it becomes easy to put it in everybody's pocket. - Yeah, so how did that, like, you know, were you kind of following the development of the smartphone that just come out and you're like, hey, yeah, I mean, it was funny. I was, I guess I can say the name now. Like, I was on the board, the research board of Motorola. - Okay. - And we were trying to explain to them. This was like the flip phone. And one of the perks was they gave you their best phone every year. So I always had, like, the quote unquote, best Motorola phone. - Yeah. - It's terrible. Like, do you know, like, the razor, the flip razor? - It was awful. - I mean, the funny thing is, like, Motorola even had a partnership with Apple before the iPhone. - Really? - Yeah, it was called the rocker. Right, it was like an iPod in a Motorola flip phone. - Okay. - They fucked it up so badly that Steve Jobs was like, yeah, no. - No, I don't want anything. - Yeah, we got to do our own thing. - We were trying to explain these, me and my other, like, futurists were trying to explain to them, like, you know, touch screens, graphic user interfaces, guys, sensors. - Yeah. - Have the phone, like, no one, you pick it up. Like, this is not expensive. It's not hard to do. And then, I mean, the first, the iPhone wasn't the first one. Like, LG came out with a thing in career. - Oh, okay. - Six months before. - That makes sense, 'cause I had a droid way before I had a night. My first phone was a droid. - Yeah, I think it was actually an LG. - Yeah, and LG had this, like, it was called the Prada. Don't ask me why, like a clothing company. - Yeah. - But it was basically the same as an iPhone. And then the iPhone came out. And I remember, like, I went back to the Motorola guys with another meeting and we were like, so, you know, that thing we were telling you about years, it's happened, right? What do you think? And the head of, I swear to you, the head of research, Motorola said, yeah, but it doesn't have a very good microphone. Like, people were like lining up around the block to pay like a thousand dollars for this phone that never even touched, right? And this guy was like, when it has a crappy microphone. And that was kind of true. - Yeah, okay. - But who gave a shit? - Yeah. - And, you know, Motorola is kind of not in business anymore. - No. - And they, and it's funny, you see that, 'cause they were, like, cell phones, they were, like, number one. Nokia, no Sony, all these guys. And probably in all those companies, there was somebody saying, Hey, this is what the future is going to look like. like, yeah, I'm never like yeah, no. So yeah, so who is that? Yeah, who's above you? 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So that's pretty crazy, man, to think about it that long ago, where it was like, because there's like a super like mystique around the iPhone where it was like, you know, it's just almost, you know, people a lot of times are like jobs. It was just like taking acid in the woods and was just like we tapped in. So that had been a slow ongoing process. He was a guy like, it looked like a really good DJ who like is just ahead of the trends who like plays tune, you wouldn't have thought about. And then you realize it's actually, he was that guy for like tech, like he really had a good eye for what was coming. And you know, and so what happened with the iPhone, like, and this is kind of what we all saw, it was, it wasn't really a phone. Phone was a thing, you know, if you think about your smartphone now, like how often are you actually making a call? Yeah, right. It's just one of your apps. So I'll just use it a camera, use it as a video game, use it as, you know, GPS mapping, whatever you use it for. Yeah. And and that's what he saw. You know, so you got the iPod idea and the online video idea and the phone idea and the handheld video, just all stick it into one thing. Yeah. And he really, I get it because I had the droid first and I was like, and I will say there was something about when I would like, tap it or touch it, that when it would buzz every time I did that, there were, I don't know why, that like made me feel so happy every time it responded back to me. I don't know. I still like, you know, I had to turn off my phone because I just, I do like those little noises, like, blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. And if you watch the first, like, presentation of the iPhone, like, way back when, like, he swipes on the screen, I think he gets a standing evaluation. Yeah. So we take it all for granted now. But yeah. So it was, it was fairly clear in the late 90s, early 2000s, that something a bit like that was, yeah, that happened. Well, yeah, that was my whole thing. Apple, like, when I had the droid for a while, I'm like, this is cool. But Apple was like, it was like intuitive where I was like, oh, this is so easy. Like, I don't have to spend time figuring it out. I was just kind of like, this makes just so much easier to use. Yeah, because I mean, Joe wasn't really a technical guy. You know, so he, he was kind of like all representative in the, in the room, who's like, yeah, it's just too complicated. Yeah. Make it easy and make it easy. That's kind of with, you know, what we have today, which is awesome. Yeah. Yeah. So the, uh, so here's, here's the thing. So okay, internet of things, term, you coined. And when you gave the meeting, were you like kind of aware that like, damn, I think I'm crushing it right now or like, this is a thing or you have, you know what I mean? Like, oh, man, uh, this is, it's a long time ago. So I could, so, uh, the CEO wanted to see the talk, the Procter and Gamble. And I was in the UK. I don't think they realized that. Like, I got an email saying, yeah, come and see the CEO like the day on tomorrow or something. Procter and Gamble is based in Cincinnati. I'd never even been to the US, right? For sure, I had a passport. So like, I got a ticket. First place ever went to the United States was Cincinnati. That's pretty circuit. I was fairly disappointed. Right to Ohio. And I'm in this like walnut panel like boardroom kind of place. And they all come in like there's a, you know, the CEO and all these other like really senior guys. And I do my thing. And basically we go around the room and like all the other like the entourage guys are like, yeah, sucks. I'll never work. I don't like it. I'm like, oh, damn, you know, but then the CEO's like, well, I like it. I think it's a good idea. And funnily enough, like, it's like watching the dominoes go down. Like all these guys who I swear had just been shitting on my idea. Yeah. Like, yeah, you're right. That's a really, yeah. What a good idea. So yeah, if I hadn't been to Turkey, I got wherever you are. Thank you. If I hadn't been for that guy who was CEO at Procter at the time, I don't know what would have happened. But he got it. He said, yeah, we're going to pay for you to go to MIT and make this real. Whoa. So like, yeah, first time we went to the US was like Thanksgiving. Yeah. It was like Thanksgiving of 98. And then by September the first 99, I was in the Smithstone in institution announcing the internet of things to the world and I lived in the US. Whoa. It happened really fast. Yeah. That's insane. Yeah. It was crazy. And they were like, well, let's give you, we'll pay for your MIT industry. Yeah. And they gave me money so I could find the research. And then we got a bunch of other companies involved. And it just snowboarded. Well, and what did you do before that? Well, I was a brand manager. I was, uh, I ran like part of the oil of Olay business, the Procter and Gamble in Europe. Yeah. Yeah. Just like a slang. Yeah. Just slang. Yeah. I was like an expert on mascara. And you were like supply chains out of it. No, it just, the shit was never in the store. And I got pissed off. And I said, why is my stuff never in the store? Why is, you know, why is this particular color of lipstick that we know everybody likes, the literally true story is never in the, I go get my groceries. It's never fucking there. And the first answer was, well, it's just in that one store. And I'm like, yeah, no, there's no way it's just the store I go to is. So I did some research. It wasn't anywhere like with a pen or this money to advertise it, you couldn't actually buy it. I wanted to fix that problem. It just wasn't getting there, basically. Yeah. I mean, it was, it was in the back or something. You know, it's, you give like computer training like, yeah, are you like a systems idea? Yeah. But like, I was like, there's an idea. There's a school in like the early mid 90s. And like, like, I had a computer when I was 10. I had like a shitty home computer. You know, like the age of life you've heard of like Commodore and all those kind of really early computers. No, no. I only remember the windows and like that early Apple thing that was like purple on top of it. So yeah, but my generation was like, we were the first kids to have computers at home. Yeah. You had like, yeah, I've had your Atari video game system. Yeah. Commodore 64 home didn't do very much. But what was the Commodore? I remember Atari. What was the Commodore 64? It's like a keyboard that you plugged into the TV. And it had like basic computer ability. And you could like, by video games on cassette tapes and like play it into the computer. It would sound like a fax machine. And it would like load it in. You could play some little game. That's awesome. Yeah. No. So yeah, I just grew up with computers. So like, I was like, well, there's got to be a, this is an information problem, right? Yeah. A solution. And like, there was thing. Yeah. That's pretty cool. Yeah. It worked out. So you and you walked on that day, like, I think I crushed it. Like, did you have an idea that you were just completely like, I went from there to a meeting at MIT. And I was having breakfast in the Cambridge Mariette hotel, which is, at that time was like the only hotel in MIT. Yeah. And a senior guy from Procter and Gable Campbell kind of busting in to find me at breakfast, was like, they've just approved for you to like transfer to MIT. How quickly can you move to the United States? And I was like, shit, I've had about two weeks. And they're like, yeah, sure. That's awesome. And I like went back to my office and like the human resource team and that. Yeah. We pay for your apartment. We pay for your plane. We pay for all this stuff. Oh my god. So yeah, it was like, it was life change. That's insane. That's honestly, that's like a fantasy of mine. I always wanted to go in a boardroom and hit them with the, you know, a million dollar idea. That's awesome. I would love it. Yeah. I mean, it landed, but like I'm not kidding you like the first five minutes of feedback were brutal. It is funny. Like, now I get what was there? Do you remember the pushback specifically? Or there's like, this will never work. It was just like they had some bullshit. I mean, the thing you always always heard back in that days was all the laws of physics. You know, if you want to put a radio microchip into like a bottle of moisturizer, it's going to cost $10 and it won't work. Yeah. This was before Wi-Fi. It was before Bluetooth. And there are a lot of people who are convinced that you really couldn't send data over radio or barely. Yeah. And that's crazy now. Like we think about like, you know, you can download like a high-def movie on your phone over it like the cell network. Yeah. Yeah. But in the 90s, it was like, yeah, that won't work. It's going to cost too much. We already know where all our stuff is anyway. I'm like, no, you don't. Yeah. You know, there were guys whose job it was like to know. They weren't going to be like, yeah, you know, he's right. We actually have no fucking idea. true. So like, this is not a problem. That was one of that, you know, so what were the, how do they, like, who the guy who knew where all the stuff was back in the early night, they would just call warehouse, my, you know, did you guys get that stuff? Well, they'd know, like, they'd know, like, down to the nearest, like, million or something, right? But was I, because I used to get this, like, even after we got to MIT, we'd have like, CEO type guys come through and we'd pitch them and they'd be like, yeah, we already know where all our stuff is. And I'd be like, okay, you sell this product and you've got a store down the street in Boston. How long would it take you to find out how many of this one product are on the shelf in that store? And that'd be like, uh, yeah, well, you know, I'm not supposed to like couldn't do it. Yeah, of course. I used to work in a beer distributor and the one was just the early 2000s and the guy would still walk around, count every single case of beer. He had a piece of paper. So I remember I stole a 12 pack from him one time. Yeah. And he can fry. He was like, did you, uh, I was missing a 12 pack of MGD and I was like, God damn, you really had this thing? That's good. Yeah. He was the only guy. That guy owned that store. He was, he worked very closely with the owner. He was like, he was trying to get a citizenship and he like lived in the way he lived in the warehouse itself. So he was, it was like his ticket to America. He's invested like in a big bulk store. No, there's no way. No, especially if you go to like a target still to this day, you go to a target sometimes and it's like, just crap every like I, it's pretty bad. Oh, yeah. It's a mess. Yeah. Well, cool. So you came up, came up with that idea and that kind of, I don't know, did you ever feel like kind of, um, since you weren't, you know, technically like a, you know, you were savvy with computers, I guess. I guess if you used a computer regularly in the 90s, you were a tech guy. Well, you know, I was kind of too stupid and not stupid, I was really, but my experience had been like the first computer I got had one K of memory. And I saved up, we should live and use papers. I saved up for months and bought a 16 K like K, not megabytes, gigabytes, gigabytes, memory expansion for that thing, cost like a hundred bucks or whatever. And I felt like I had more memory than I would ever need, right? This isn't the 80s. And by the 90s, you know, it's like we're talking about like maybe megabytes. Yeah. And the stuff you, you can do was like a million times better than the stuff you could do in the 80s. So like in my dumb brain, it was like, well, things just get cheaper. Yeah. Things just get smaller. And that turned out to be true. I mean, I didn't know how it was true or why it was true, but like you just figured it out. Yeah. I'd seen that happen for like 15 years at that point. Yes. I saw a video. So there's a video from you 11 years ago and you were doing, you had like three predictions. Okay. And the one was 15 years from now. This is 11 years ago. 15 years from now, most cars won't have steering wheels, which I took is like automatic cars, basically. Yeah. So kind of nailed that because I don't know if you see, I mean, obviously you see all the way most here. I go in a white mark. Funny. I love the way. I actually love the way. Yes. So you were, so you were kind of spot on with that 15 years ago or 11 years ago, you were like, yeah, there's self-driving cars. I don't think people really 11 years ago, they're like, no way. Oh, they would. No. And the thing is like what's happened is a lot of cars like new cars are more self-driving than people realize. It's called like enhanced driver. I've seen that. So it tells you if you're like going out of your lane, it can tell you if you need to break suddenly, you know, there's a whole bunch of stuff they're like building in gradually. So like what used to just be like the automatic gearbox or like cruise control or something. Yeah. It's like now getting more and more sophisticated. So you're getting closer and closer to like that self-driving. Yeah. I like it. I took away moan. I actually kind of really enjoyed it. You know, I thought I'd be like, I don't know. It's pretty reliable. It drives like a regular speed. It's, you know, first few minutes is kind of weird and then it just gets old. Yeah. I find it. And I like, I enjoy talking to people in Uber, so I don't mind even interaction. But there is something really peaceful about just like being there by yourself, putting on a song and just kind of just chill. And I like really, really, I don't know. I feel I find it really relaxing. I still catch myself about to say something to the drivers. Oh, yes. Well, I'll say thank you again. Yeah. It says hello and it says your name. Yeah. And I always want to say, you know, hello, back. It's like there's no one here. Yeah. No one here, dude. So the other one was, and I'm curious to see what we're coming up with this five years from now. Computers won't have batteries. What were the runners? All I was cheating at that point, right? Because they were, I mean, so there's a thing called an RFID tag, which is like the sort of one of the main technologies in the internet of things. It's just like a little chip with an antenna and like you buy something from Walmart or something. They use it for inventory tracking. Yeah. You buy something from Walmart. It might have a sticker on this as EPC. That's the thing we've met at MIT. That's the electronic product code, right? Okay. That's a computer. But an RFID tag is a computer, but it's very small. It's very simple. It doesn't have a battery. It gets power from the radio waves that are communicating. There are more, even when I made that prediction, there are more RF, there were more RFID tags in the world than any other kind of computer added together. Smart phone. I mean, these things cost a few cents. They're in like your speed pass and then the products you buy and they're used for tracking and Amazon warehouses and whatnot. So there's billions of them and they don't have batteries. Right. So that's the cheat in that story. But what's happening in computing is two things. One, the amount of power it uses goes down by about half every two years. That's great. So computers get just keep getting more power efficient, right? So they need less power, but also then we're getting better at like sending power over the air, harvesting power from like vibrations, sound vibrations, stuff like that. So yeah, we're definitely moving. I mean, it might be your smartphone where it says a battery, but you probably noticed you get a lot more life out of a charge now than you used to. Yeah. So the power budgets go down, ways of putting power in go beyond batteries. That's that's been happening for all that will keep happening. Damn. So there's a little, okay, so those are, what's the difference between a computer and a computer chip? Nothing. Really? Okay. I mean, well, could you think of computer? It's like shorthand for like personal computer, but that's like a chip with like a keyboard, like a memory, or you know, a fan or something, right? But the thing that's doing the computing is the microprocessor. Got you. And that's one chip, one integrated circuit. That's crazy. They just pull the, I guess the energy out of the lifeline. That's why, yeah, that's why my easy pass keeps rocking. I've never charged. There you go. Yeah. Dang. Nailed that too. And what do you think? I know that one. No, third one. I think you're spot on kids and grandkids will live to a hundred on average. Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's coming. I think worldwide. We're definitely getting there. You know, I mean, the pandemic like screwed up, like life expectancy. Because I think about life expectancy that nobody knows, right? Is it's what age of people dying today? So if you're 20 years old, and you're like, you've got in the internet, say your life expectancy is 80. But that means that the people who die today are average age of 80. Yeah. That's not actually counting for the fact that it will probably get better as you get older. Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah. So most people are going to going to hit a hundred unless they have a bad accident or something. Yeah. That's definitely on the way. Yeah. Hopefully they can do that, you know, little like tiny small robots that can go around your body and be like cancer cell. And then you just get like a thing on your right. Oh really? I mean, that's that's kind of sort of happening. Yeah. Like at least customize drug delivery. Like it's kind of a bit more modified for your, you know, your DNA, your body type stuff like that. We're learning a lot. And the thing about healthcare is you solve one problem. When I was a kid, like all the men were dying in their 40s of heart attacks. Yeah. They were smoking too much. They were drinking too much. They were eating British food too much, you know, yeah. And we figured out heart attacks, right? Doesn't really happen anymore. So then people start dying of something else when they're 50. Yeah. And then we figured that out. And then you know, you get and now it's so now it's like dementia type problem. It's a big one right now. But you know, there's there's a lot of interesting work happening. There's a lot of money being thrown at that. I guess someone will figure it out. And then the other side of that, there's there's something else that people are a hundred dials. Yeah. I just don't know at what point you like, does it stop working that you can't fix the thing that people are like, I want to know what the new thing will be. I'll probably be a lot of finds out. Call me in 30 years. Dang, man. So, okay. So we figured out how you become a futurist. It's, uh, you have any futurist like pals that you talk to that you kind of like, oh yeah, there's like there's a little bunch of us and we shoot the shit and we like, you know, like we post rationalize like you're giving those predictions. A lot of guys are completely wrong. I won't name names. But yeah, but you know, when you said that, yeah, but what I meant was, yeah, futurist, yeah, there's this thing over here that I found on Google that actually proves. So yeah, you know, I think I'm an honest futurist. Like, if you'd have said you predicted this, it didn't happen up in, yeah, you were right. Oh, yeah, it's hard. Yeah, but like, there are a lot of guys who, yeah, who won't ever admit that they got it wrong. Yeah, you get a lot of stuff wrong. Like now, it's a surprising. If one of your futurist bros were to go like too far into the future, which you pull them back, me like, bro, you can't go that. Like if they're like 700 years from now, or would you be like, oh, yeah, yeah, I think that's like, I mean, because you've got to think about this two things, right? If you think about 700 years ago, yeah, there was no way anybody could have described this. Right? Yeah. But and as the population gets bigger, you get more ideas. And people have more leisure time as technology gets better to think about new things. So technology improvement accelerates, like massively, right? Which is why we've gone from like, I mean, the first like main TVs were like in the 50s, I think was like the big US television revolution. Yeah. Like some shitty TV about, you know, this big. And now you've got like 4K on your phone. Yeah. So like the idea of like looking more than like 50 to 100 years ahead in any meaningful way. Yeah, it's crazy. Yeah, because like one thing leads to to another, and at some point, you know, it's just going in a direction you didn't see coming. - Yeah, and that's what I like, I do like in terms, so you have a pretty optimistic outlook on terms of the future and technology. - Oh yeah. - You know, especially with the sensors and this and that, feel like they're slowly getting closed in by like a giant, you know, surveillance apparatus that's gonna like lock them up. - I mean, people use good technology for bad things. - Yeah, yeah. - I mean, generally governments, not always. And that happens, and you know, you try and control it, but you, if you don't invent something 'cause someone might do something bad with it, you know, you're never gonna invent anything, right? - Yeah. - But the other thing is, like, it's safe to be an optimist because like, I'm gonna tell you right now, like the world is not gonna end in our lifetime. - Yeah. - And if I'm wrong, hey, who's gonna, (laughing) who's gonna know? - True. - You know, you can't really lose betting on that. - Yeah, well, no, I feel like it's a lot of, you get a lot of, I personally think it's really invoked to be very negative and very kind of doom and gloom with the history, especially with AI. Everyone I know is like freaking out about it. And I honestly don't, I don't know. Again, it's like, yeah, if it races a bunch of jobs, you know, seemingly overnight, that's, it's gonna be a problem, but I really feel like they'll figure it out. I don't know. I don't like, 'cause it's like, especially if you like, go back to like the fall of the Roman Empire. Dude, if you'd asked any of those guys back then that had been like, it's done, we're done, everything's over, they would have never been able to conceive of the fact that it's like, not only not over, but it's gonna be a million times different and better. - Oh yeah, I mean, and bad things happen, good things happen, AI is like a big complicated topic, but like, it's very close to the intent of things. So I've been like dealing with AI one way or another since the '90s. - Yeah. - So like, I'm not like doom and gloom or like hype about it, I'm kind of like in the middle. You know, the thing is, I think, and I'm not, I'm not trying to raise a billion dollars right now. So, you know, it's easy for me, but like, it's just a more complicated toaster, right? - Yeah. - You know, like a toaster turns bread into toast, it doesn't know what toast is, right? Doesn't understand meaning. AI is the same, AI is just like brain toast, right? You know, it's, it doesn't know what it's doing, it's just a machine. And, you know, like, there are things that only humans can do, right? And the thing that only humans can do, one of them is meaning. So, if we like tell stories, we can only tell good stories, computers can't, they can tell bad stories, 'cause they don't know what anything means. - Yeah. - I mean, it's like, I give you, like in comedy, like the best comedy is the truest comedy. - Yeah. - People laugh most, they get the most emotional reaction from something that feels most true. And that's true in all storytelling. If it makes you scared, or if it makes you excited, or sad, or whatever, like the more it makes you feel something, you know, in comedy, it's laughter. The truer it is, generally. - The more it means something. I mean, it's changed content, I can't do that. - Yeah, that's kind of, that's my feeling on it. And I've, I've like, it's useful for like editing. You can have it edit, you can have it flag years. But like, I don't know, I feel the same way, 'cause it's like, I mean, I guess in terms of like, producing a good story, maybe they could like draw from, you know, a hundred of the best authors of all time, copy some sort of like, you know, pattern to that. But I don't feel like, I've tested GROC before, by being like, you know, here's a joke I'm thinking of. And it was complete nonsense on purpose. - Oh, yeah. - And it was like, hilarious. - Oh, yeah, yeah. - You know, that's literally, you know, the best thing. - It's like, it's like the guys who run it. They like sick of fans, you know, they're like, yeah, people suck up and they think you like that too. But like, I mean, I can't imagine you like, asking AI to write you a bit. They can't, and then you go on on stage, and being like, yeah, I can confidently deliver this. - No, I can't do it. - I remember hearing like, oh, it's gonna, you know, at first, or whatever, not the first, but the last writer strike, there was a big thing, like, AI's coming, it's gonna take. And I was like, how close is it actually for comedy writing? It's so, so bad, it's horrible. - Yeah, I had crap, crap, AI storytelling is like crap, human storytelling. - Yeah. - You know, like, what's, why's a bad comedian bad? It's because they're saying something that doesn't really mean anything that doesn't really bring true, right? And like, like, you see a crappy straight to video kind of movie, and it's kind of like a mashup of a bunch of cliches you've seen a million times before. - Yeah. - It doesn't really have any kind of thematic thing. So I say, comedy is, is truth telling, right? So, I grew up, again, I'm old. I grew up on like, Bill Hicks, Eddie Isard. You can still, you know, that Bill Hicks, yeah. So you can go, you can go back and look at Bill Hicks, like from like the 80s or the 90s, he's still funny. - Yeah. - But maybe the president he's taking the piss out of has changed the name or something. Basically, it's still true, right? And so, you know, that's, that's all storytelling, whether it's comedy or anything else. It's gotta be real, it's gotta be true, it's gotta have meaning. AI, I don't think he's ever gonna be at that point. - Yeah. - Where like, you could say, okay, I'm gonna have it. Tell me, write me a joke, and I'm just gonna go say it, and people are gonna laugh. - Yeah, I don't think you could do anything meaningful, at least, you know, I don't think so. I think you could crank out like children's cartoons, like Paw Patrol, if you were to do like, you know, children's animated show. I've noticed, as I've watched a good amount with my kids, almost all those cartoons follow the exact same storyline where it's like, you know, an animal's lost and needs its mom. And it's like, I think you could like crank out, slap like that, but yeah, I just think it's good for like organizing, it's like a super spell check where it's like, it can go flag errors, you know, but yeah, I'm not worried about it. I know so many people, like, it's gonna become sentient and like, realize it doesn't like us and kill us. And it's like, I think people have stopped saying that since I started using it. - Yeah. - I feel like this. Like, actually, this is kind of crap, you know? - Exactly. - Sorry to interrupt the podcast, guys, but this episode is brought to you by PricePix. Shoot your shot on PricePix and get $50 instantly in lineups when you play your first $5. That's right. PricePix is now giving you $50 in lineups when you sign up and play your first $5. 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If you wanna come to those shows and clips, if you wanna come to those shows, almost call it Clitzburg, that's crazy. Cleveland, Ohio, or Pittsburgh, 40th and slip. Yeah, just come, you can get my tickets. I think there's a link in this video to get 'em. Pretty sick. And also after that, I'll be in St. Louis, Missouri, Indianapolis, St. Paul, Missouri, I guess that's M.O. Missouri, Des Moines, Iowa, Phoenix. Here's the big one, guys. All of them are selling pretty well. God damn that Phoenix celebrity theater is, it's not till April 17th. So we have some time, but that shows in the round and actually enjoy performing in the round. So if you wanna see my butt for like good 10 second stretches while I do my thing, and you know, turn around, I'll show you my bulge at the celebrity theater as well. It'll be button bulge all night. Is the celebrity theater just an angry little micro bulge? I'll wear some joggers that night, so everyone gets their money's worth. They can all go, "Hahaha, look at that." It's barely sticking out. Guys, I'll be in Tucson, Arizona. Toronto's a big one, two shows, again, not bragging, nature of the beast. Two shows, both have sold out in Toronto. I'm thinking about adding a third. So Canadians, I know I've said a lot of bad things about your country. I was just fucking kidding around, I love you guys. You guys love me more than all these bastards and fucking Phoenix Arizona apparently. So come on out to the shows and then Chicago, of course, it'll be the Riviera Theater. Probably gonna add a second show there, hopefully, is that thing done sold out May 26th, or whatever. Hopefully that makes sense to you guys. Go to mammacuster.com. And yeah, come to a show, man. We're having a good time. Also, I'll be doing Algonauts in Austin, Texas. That's once a month I do that, where we're me and Tim Butterley, take people's cell phones, project their algorithm through Instagram, usually on the screen, and try to get a picture of who is this person. What is the algorithm being sent to them, or what is being sent to them through the algorithm? What does that say about them? What doesn't it say about them? because you can't just judge someone on their algorithm, or maybe you can, I don't know. Now, come out to that, that's at the Creek and Cave. So if you go to Creek and Cave, ATX, you can get that. And last, and I don't remember the saying, last and cool enough, guys I'm tired. Last and most importantly, Noble Bomb, I'll be in Philadelphia in March 16th. I'm gonna, I'm just visiting family, figured I'd strut my stuff. On the old flagship stage that is helium Philadelphia, I'm gonna get some of my friends, and we're all gonna try new-ish material, stuff we're working on. It'll be fun. Come out, it'll be St. Paddy's Day weekend. You can get drunk if that's what you feel you must do. And if you're trying really hard not to be drunk well, try to hold out, come to the show, be sober, you know? Be fun, learn how to be fun while sober, or get fucking hammered on St. Paddy's Day. It's really up to you. All these, I'm weighing out choices. That's all I'm doing. I'm not trying to coerce you, I'm not trying to manipulate you. I'm just giving you choices. Do whatever you want. Love you guys, back to the show. - Part in the interruption, part in the interruption. This is Sean Gardini. I just wanted to let you guys know that I'll be in Salt Lake City, Utah at Wise Guys Comedy Club, March 27th and 28th, with Nate Marshall. So please come see that show if you'd like. And I'll be at the comment in Cincinnati, not comment ping pong, just the comment in Cincinnati on May 22nd and 23rd. So please come to those, that was a little joke there, but I'd really like to see you guys at the show. So please come if you can. Tickets are at Sean Gardini.com. And we also have an optimum noctis at the Creek and the Cave in Austin, Texas. Me, Nate Marshall, and Lamarely, every first and third Tuesday of the month. So thank you very much for your time. Part in the interruption, enjoy the rest of the show. - But yeah, the other, and the other thing too is like, I saw you talking about God, who was it, Mozart, that fake letter. - Oh yeah, yeah. - Were like all of his songs would come to him, like in this, where he'd be in a great mood and they would just start to finish, they would come and all he had to do was kind of write them out. And now that was everyone believed that. I was like, for sure, but it's literally fake. - God, I worked his ass off. - Probably like you do. Like just, I mean, maybe once in a while you're stuck at a red light and you get the seed of an idea. That's quite a good idea. - Sure. - I don't know you, but I'm guessing most of the comedy you write, you're sitting there thinking about it and making a little bit better and a little bit better again and getting pissed off with it and thrown it away. And that's how great creators create. They just work. - Yeah. - That's talent and all that stuff. It's not like anybody could be Mozart. - Sure. - But even Mozart had to be writing things down, crossing them out. You have to play something, listen to it. Oh, that's good. That's not good. That's how everybody does it. - Yeah, that's kind of a, you know, what you come to discover. It's like, it really is like, you know, if you want to do something cool in any capacity, usually it's just like you have to trade your time. Like you have to trade tons of time and just deal with stuff that sucks so bad and just keep plotting through. - Yeah. - Whereas I do think there's a thought where it's like, I can just link into the AI feed it prompts and it's like, I don't think it's gonna produce. That's why it sucks to be like on a deadline or in a hurry. - Yeah. - 'Cause you kind of need the luxury to be like, yeah, I spent a week on this, but it sucks. I don't want to, but I'm gonna have to start over. - Yeah. - And so if you don't have that luxury, you've gotta go with the thing that sucks, right? - Yeah. - Through that. So about the book, we got the story of stories. Where'd you, when you kind of like, you know, 'cause you were talking about things, what made you, what prompted you to switch to thinking about stories? - Oh, well, it's like, I was, so we talked about smartphones and like this year, about 90% of the people in the world in the world own a smartphone. - Okay. - And that's like 15% of those people are like us in advanced economies. We maybe had computers before that, TVs and telephones and all that stuff. But the other like 75% of people, they never had any of that stuff. So you've gone from like, not owning a telephone, you know, watching a TV that 10 other families watch on the corner of the street to having a smartphone in your pocket. So the beginning of the story of stories was like, well, what does that mean? Like, how does that change things? And, you know, the way it changes things is, this is the first time in human history when anybody can tell stories to anybody, right? If you have a good story, like you can put it on the internet, on Facebook or whatever. And if people start sharing it like very quickly, like it can kind of go all the way around the world. That's never been true. Like, your storytelling started about a million years ago because we invented fire. - Yeah. - So, we invented fire. And about the similar time, alcohol, drugs and cooking. So you're sitting around a fire. What else is there to do after you've eaten some food, gotten drunk, gotten high, right? You start shooting the shit. So that's how language happened, right? Language didn't give us stories, stories gave us language. So, you know, you're a million years ago, like your long way human ancestors. And you only know how to like, you know, say, oh, there's a pineapple over there or let's have sex, right? You've got a few kind of barkies now. But gradually, you've got to use sound because you can't see because it's fire light. So gradually over a long period of time, you know, you evolve to get good at talking. - Yeah. - Tomorrow or something you remember or like where the stars maybe came from or whatever, right? So storytelling is what made us human, right? And at that time, like it was like, you could talk to like five guys, you know, your buddies around the fire, right? But then you get like, maybe drawing, like you can draw on more of a cave or something. People can see it like, even after you die, then you get stuff like singing. So it makes it really easy to remember a story. And then of course, you know, writing, printing, all the way through to like smartphones and AIS, it's stories all the way down, right? So the minute I was like, the fuck does it mean that everyone's got a smartphone? You know, I kind of went backwards, I guess down the rabbit hole and ended up with, well, it's all stories. You know, the way to tell the story of what's happening now that when it's arguing about whether this is true or that is true or this conspiracy theory or whatever, that's really being enabled by smartphones, right? It's all storytelling. Storytelling is deep in our brains, because it evolved with us. Yeah. So that's where the story of stories came from. I mean, this is like, I'm kind of a slow thinker. I like to read fucking everything. And it takes ages, which like, you know, settle in and like makes sense. And I chase squirrels, I got a rabbit hole. So I like up in the morning, like, how did I get here? But the point was like, what does it mean about the smartphones basically? Yeah. And then one thing leads to another, you know, with the story of stories, because that's the only way I figured out how to answer the question. So what did you, in terms of like a prescriptive, I guess, or if you have one, what do you think the answer to that question is in terms of like, where it'll go? Or like, how do you handle yourself in a world where like, you have a million people telling you a million stories? And especially like the deep fake stuff and, you know, it's coming down the pipe. I mean, I think there's a couple of, I, I, I, I can't really do prescriptions like I bet, but what I, what I think is, we got to understand that stories are really integral to how we think about the world. Like, some people think of stories that are like, I've read a book, I saw a movie, right? But yeah, stand up comedy, storytelling, right? This conversation is storytelling, right? Most of what we do is storytelling, one way or another. Yeah, the thing I'm sorry to get the same from the book that really, you know, I think it's cool is the, kind of the idea of like, you know, how you're in majority, oh, I guess maybe the whole entire thing of your identity is literally just you telling stories or continue stories, like the person you are. And to be, and it's like, you know, you're, I, you were saying too, like how you're all your cells basically die, except for your eyeballs and like the, just a little bit of lizard part of your brain, like a couple of little bits. That's crazy. That's the only thing over your whole lifetime that lives the entire, they cells don't die. Just you have your, your original eyeballs and your little like lizard stem of your brain. Everything else dies, comes back. Again, okay. This will make it through. So in that, I do get that because there's like, okay, that's fair. So like your physical form is actually kind of coming and going and your, the thing that's actually sustained is the story you're telling yourself. The only caveat is that there is a form, like a shape to your physical cells and stuff. That's the one thing that does, well, actually, no, it doesn't, 'cause then you grow and you, - I mean, you weren't born when I came out this, man. - Actually, I came out exactly. (laughing) Came out at 192 pounds, like, no, that's fair. That's it, yeah, okay. Yeah, so, and then you can also alter your form. So, nope, I'm wrong. So, that is kind of cool to think of, like, I was like reading it last night, kind of blunt. First of all, bugging out about people's telling stories a million years ago over fire, which is just like, like, ugh, just like groaning noises to each other, and how that becomes basically, you know, that's evolved into where, like, literally, that's how you experience yourself as who you are through stories, and the thing that I really like too, is like, stories being vehicles of, like, shame and glory, delivery systems, where it's like, you tell, and it happens all the time. The news is like the number one thing where it's like, it's a giant shame, mostly a shame apparatus, where it's like this person, piece of shit, they suck, and it's, you know, and you're listening, you're like, yeah, I hate that guy too. That's no great, right? It's like, you're a hero or you're a villain. Yeah. That's the story shake brain. Yeah. So, you got to understand, like, that's not how the world actually is. Everybody's kind of, like, a bit good and a bit bad, and some people are really quite bad, and some people are really quite good, and we think in terms of heroes and villains, it's just because of all that stuff around the fireside, right, you know, because we're shooting the shit around the fireside, getting high, well, we're the heroes. Those guys over there, they're the villains. Yeah. That's just how the brain works. So like, understanding that is one thing. Like you're understanding of the world is like 99.9% based on stories that you have heard. Yeah. And most of those stories were based on stories that the person who told you the story had heard. And so very little, what we know, we know through our eyes and ears and so on, right? Yeah. We told it. That's unique about humans. So you've got to be really, I think, just like you might think about the food that you eat, right? You kind of got to be a little bit picky about what stories you expose yourself to. Yeah. But also then, like, don't just take him a face value, you know, especially if it's something you want to believe. Yeah. Like if someone tells you you're hero as a hero, you might, that might be the best time to be like, well, I'm going to think about that a little bit harder because there may be another angle here, you know? And this is a challenge, like, because the story of stories, kind of the first wave of it is this one person can tell stories to five people to now everybody can tell stories to everybody, right? That's kind of the end of that first wave. But what we're seeing now is like, is this story real? Right? Is this because throughout human history, like, you know, you look at this painting, like we know that's the painting. We know that's not actually a naked woman sitting right there. But as we move into this world of like ever increasing screen revolution, so it looks more and more three dimensional, ever better AI, deep fake technology within a reach to point sometime soon, when you actually can't tell. Yeah. Are you looking out of a window kind of thing or are you being told a story? Like how real is it? How fake is it? And that critical thinking that we already need to be like, is someone bullshitting me right now? Sure. It's got to get a lot sharper. Yeah, that's going to be real. I was like thinking about that a lot, especially with the Epstein files, because I think that is going to follow whatever the next election, like the, you know, presidential election, I think that's going to be weaponized to try to like take the either, you know, people trying to take their opponents down with that, which is like, okay, fair enough. But then it's like, we'll be in a place now where you can be accused of horrible stuff as a politician. There could be a video and you'd be like, that's a deep fake. You see that already, right? Yeah. You know, I mean, that was not that long ago. Like I think Syria was accused of gassing its population or something and like there was a video. It's like, oh, yeah, that's all AI, you know. Yeah, that's a close bullshit. But it's common. And yeah, I mean, obviously people in the Epstein, I mean, you know, raping kids is bad. Those people suck. They should all go to jail. I'm totally for that. But yeah, I mean, just on the story of stories side of it, the Epstein files exist because of email. Yeah. And there's so much like, like, you know, this like, priest, police brutality stuff that we hear about now, like that's not new, but you get to see video of it. Like right now, there's like 10 smartphones pointing at it. And they're on the internet, like immediately. Yeah. So there's good and bad with this new technology. We're getting this paper trail. Like are the Epstein emails fake? We kind of know they're not, right? Cause they just, they look real, right? And there's so many of them. So, but at some point, yeah, you're going to be showing a cell phone video. What's happens now? Like, look, what this, you know, this person did. It's going to be PS. Yeah. I saw, I saw a video of a bombing recently where like literally the cars just like flew up in the air. And I was like, damn, it wasn't like the Middle East. And it's like 10 people like, this is AI, not true. And it's like, yeah, fuck, it's kind of weird. You can generally find some expert online now. There's like, who can explain this? That can get it. This is always in real life. Yeah. Well, I think I know, um, yeah, I think Netflix has a thing where they, they actually screen. If you give them something, they'll run it through a filter to determine how much AI is in it. There's too much AI. They're like, we can't use this. I was watching a video yesterday. It was like some guy who was like cheating at like speed running, you know, like, but you know, like video game. Yeah. Yeah. So like they video themselves, but like they analyze like the mouse movement. And they realize that the mouse hand was like kind of superimposed. And it was really there. Really? Yeah. So I mean, that stuff's already happening. But this is a scandal. Why doesn't nobody hear about this? Oh, it's, I mean, YouTube, man. Tell us everything you need. But there's, there's, again, good and bad, right? You can use this technology for like cheating. There's another guy who can use the technology to tell that you're cheating. Yeah. Yeah. That's true. And that's what I wonder too. Cause like, again, with the, you know, if we go into a realm of just like political deep fakes, you don't know what's real, what's not. It's like literally genuinely impossible to tell. I wonder if, you know, because there is like a desire for like the truth, like especially with the Epstein stuff or whatever's going on. Yeah. I want to know exactly what happened. Yeah. But then it's like, I wonder if people want that kind of access to the truth. If there's going to be some trade off for it, it's like, all right, we're all going to like divulge everything about each other. Like, you know, live kit, we're all on camera 24/7. That way we have like, we have the truth. If we need it, I think everyone would be like, I'm nobody. I mean, it's all right. I don't know. It's grand filters are there for a reason. Right? Face to, you know, nobody wants, they want to make you think that's what yeah, but yeah, there's, I mean, there's never any proof of anything, right? There's only evidence. Yeah. And we have to be, you know, we already are because our brains are built this way, but we have to be smart and awake about is this evidence real? Does this evidence add up to the story? Someone's trying to tell me why are they trying to tell me this story? Because they have the thing like, if anybody's ever telling your story, even like in conversation, like they, both of they realize they got an agenda. It's not like neutral or objective. They're like, they want to get a second date or they want to make your law for they want to impress you or they don't want you to find out what you did, what they did or something, right? Yeah. Always. That's not a bad thing. That's just the way the world. So you've got to be kind of on to like, is this bullshit? Yeah. That's, no, for sure. And it's, it's hard, you know, it's, that's kind of a hard thing to do because I feel like a huge part of that is like taking yourself out of the equation as much as possible. It's usually like what, what version of this makes me look the best? And it's like, well said. Yeah, that's, I think that's what happened. You know, it's, it's hard to like be aware enough to not do that. But even with like the, again, with the Epstein stuff, it's like, like you said, obviously child rapists are horrible, horrible, horrible things should be punished, you know, beyond even whatever they get. But then the thing I've saw is like, it becomes very, almost, I don't know if trend is the word to be like, to ramp it up to the point where it's like, we're now controlled. You know, people are like, I'm sure of this by pedophiles entirely who are like eating kids. And it's like, and again, if there's proof of that, it's like, obviously, punish that person. But the thing I worry about is like, you do get a charge. Like, whenever you talk about something like somebody being bad makes you feel good in some way. We're like, that guy's a piece of shit. And you know, it's like, how much of it is like, you know, like if they're a fucking pedophilistic pedophiles, obviously fucking punish them. But it's like a, what if that's not as true as you think? And like, what is that weird ego charge you're getting? Being like, these fucking pieces and like, they're going to control the entire world. It's like, maybe here are some villains that can't, right? Yeah. That's the one kind of thing that I get a little hit in it. But it's, it sucks is it's like, what are you sticking off? It's like, no, not at all. Like again, if you catch somebody doing that, like, do whatever you have to do. But it's like, when you, there's like a, there's this thing where you ruminate on it endlessly where you're like, what are you, what are you getting out of that? It's kind of sick on both sides. I was, I think it's storytelling again. Like, because like, you know, you've got the pizza gate thing, like, it's blood sucking, a Hillary Clinton or whatever that was about. Like, that's a story. That's like a movie. Like, good conspiracy theories are kind of like good movies, right? Or the other way around, right? Real life, even with these heinous crimes, the other thing about the Epstein files is kind of how tacky it is. You know, these people are like cheesy. They're kind of cringy. It's not like a, an action movie or, yes, it's like, you know, it's what they're doing is horrible. And, but, but also, like, they're just like having these tacky kind of email exchanges. Really? Yeah. That's the one you do. How dorky I'm addicted to Jay. I like, no, I miss my Jay. Hey, that guy stood right there. Really? Seriously? Oh, shit. Sorry. Sorry. That guy. But like, what the fuck? I've been making fun of a J.E. withdrawals as soon as I heard it. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, man. Have you looked in the Epstein files for yourself? I have not. No. Oh, I have. I'm not in there. I never knew the guy or anything. But like, he was hanging around MIT when I was. Oh, you know, there's plenty of people who like, they never met him. But he loves, he loves science. Oh, yeah. There's a list of like, you know, names or people present presenting at something. But yeah, I don't think I was on his radar. Thank God. Yeah. That was the other thing for the guys are like, again, there's comedians kind of out very well. They did. But yeah, that's, that's the, yeah, that's the one thing where it's like, you're totally right. We're, you know, it's like, we have to recognizing how deeply stories kind of alter your reality. Yeah. It's like one thing to be like, let me sit back. Let me take a breath, especially I know myself, as I have my own biases. Like, if I read a thing and I'm starting to get pissed, I have to like train myself to be like, relax, or I'll feel myself, I'll be reading an article and I'm like, this better not be fucking true. And I'll start right away to get apart automatically. That's emotion, right? That's emotion and truth. Yeah. That's a thing. It's like, oh, I'm feeling something here. Yep. That's really good to know. But it's hard not to be like, fuck yeah. That's possibly what fucking right. Yeah, I'm going to fucking share this. I'm going to come, I'm not actually going to like read the article because I just saw the headline. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's, and that's my thing too, though, with on the flip side of the conspiracy stuff. It's like, you have some people to be like, if something even sounds outlandish, they go, well, this is a crazy thing. It's like, it could be true, too. I don't know. But it's like, I, you know, I don't know either way. It could totally, that's the thing about the island of pedophiles was out 10 years ago. And everyone's like, you're out of your fucking mind. And it was true. Yeah. So it's like, you know, that's the one thing where I try to just like stay as neutral as possible where I'm not like, you know, hoping it's true or hoping it's not or it's like, maybe it is, maybe like, you know, and you mentioned Covid in the book. That was a great example of like You know, because again, like I, my family was just kind of like whatever. We'll just live life as we see fit and maybe seen fine. And then I you'd hear people like they're half their family would die. And it was like, it was crazy. You know, it was kind of nuts, you know, and that's that's the thing about stories. It's like, it's really serious. It's like it changes how we behave. Like, you know, if you believe the Loch Ness Monster is real, like, it doesn't really matter. You know, it's not, there's not a dinosaur in a Scottish lake. But like, you're not hurting anybody believe in it. You know, hurting yourself by believing it. But the minute you're like, you know, I don't know, Jewish people are like pedophiles sucking blood. I'm going to like, you know, go, go yell at a mosque or like, I'm not going to take a cow. You just actually use Instagram. Oh, right. It was just that like words that, yeah, I know. And that's that's the, uh, if you hurt yourself with somebody else, that's a bad story. Yeah. And especially, yeah, exactly. And especially again, it's like just the awareness of being like, what are the odds that, like, you know, I am the one who's like the good one. I'm the good guy and everyone else is the bad guy, you know, and it's like, again, it's such a case by case basis where it's like, I could confidently look at Jeffrey Epstein and go, yeah, I'm good compared to that guy, you know, but it's like, when you start, like, grouping in thousands and hundreds of thousands of people and being like, I know what they're all about, you know, it gets kind of, uh, this is, this is the identity being the story you tell yourself, right? Like, like, yeah, if that's, yeah, Jeffrey Epstein, it's this heinous pedophile. Yeah. And God knows what else, like, you know, bribing black man, whatever the hell he was doing, that doesn't change who you are like one inch. Yeah. You're not a better person because he was an asshole, right? Just like, you're not, you're not, you're more of an asshole because like there's some other dude who's like, you know, that's a depressing, low bar, I'll tell you what I don't do. I don't, you know, roast kids and eat them and, you know, what, yeah, that's, that is kind of a sad thing to get a charge on, like, what a piece of shit. The story where, like, you're the hero, someone else is the villain and there's, I, I, I mean, it always makes me laugh. Like, you know, you're, you're an Eagles fan, right? You're a football fan. Like every time you go to a football game, like the ref makes a call. And if it's for your team, he loves the ref is also like the first time I watched a football game, like I'd only just come to the U.S., I didn't understand football very well, but I was like, you know, in a bar, it was the snowball game, like it was Patriots versus Oakland. Like Brady had like what looked like a fumble. Yeah. And they said, oh, no, his hand was, it was a tuck rule game. Yeah, yeah. And then Patriots went on to win the Super Bowl for the first time ever. And like, Boston, like, yeah, that's, that was great refereeing right there. That was exactly the rest of the world, like, fuck that, you know, but you know, damn, well, if that'd been the Eagles quarterback, if that'd been Donovan McNabb, that'd have been a great call. Exactly. You know, I know. No, it's, it's totally true. You'd be like, no, actually, yeah. That's totally fair. Like, heroes and villains every time. Yeah. Especially the big thing too is like, you know, the man in a marriage, it's like, I can easily spin a yarn in my head where my wife is completely out to ruin my entire life. Hate me is genuinely evil. And then literally 10 minutes go by and I was like, that was being kind of a dick. I should have polished it. I needed a sandwich. Yeah. It's also like post breakup, right? Like your friends are like, oh, she was, yeah, you know, and her friends are like, he doesn't ask. And it's like, you know, anytime, anytime you're the heroine, when I was just a villain and you're really sure about that, that's probably when the, the alarm bells need to ring. Yeah. So that'll be an interesting, you know, I'll be curious to see how people, you know, what they do internally to kind of navigate the landscape because I, I do feel like people are starting to catch on and like relax and not get as strict because even like 10 years ago, people, you know, we were like hitting each other with trash can lids in the streets and like it was, people were pretty inflamed about like political storytelling and, you know, who's a good guy is a bad guy on that side. I like to think a lot of the younger people I talk to, like, you know, early 20s, almost take like an ironic kind of stance towards a lot of the political, like getting heated in general. I don't know if you've ever, there's a, there's a, there's a, there's a, like a Instagram video genre called rage bait where just like young 20 year olds will walk up to a, you know, about like 56 year old guy, I'm like, what's up, pussy? And it's like, and they're filming it with metaglasses and this guy is like, yeah, I have to fight you now. And they're almost just making fun of this whole idea that like anyone can be triggered by words to like, yeah, that's that, that's that, that's especially a thing in the South. There's like science on this. Like, I forget what they call it, but like some guys are raised like if anybody like looks at you funny, you know, yeah, that's like that's fighting talk, right? Whereas in like other parts of the US, it's like, I don't give a shit quite so much. So I'm about again, it's the stories you got told about who you're supposed to be. Yeah. Even only the East Coast. I remember like, you know, people, I remember I was in Tulsa recently and, you know, I'm at, I'm at the bar and we're hanging out after the show and there was this kid who had come to the show and he's, you know, he's just hammering. He's talking to me. I know. And it was just like this black dude sitting at the bar and he've reached over, grabbed the dude's head and went, ah, and shook his head. And I was just like, this guy's going to fucking punch you in the face because it's like, you know, and if I were to do that to it, just like a random black dude and Philly, they would, I, I 100% I think 99.9, they would fight me like, it's literally like, you just can't do that. And this, I was like, and I like, it's sort of almost like interceding on his behalf. Like, he's and the guy was like, oh, he's just having fun, man. And I was like, and you know, it's not even if it was a, a white guy, it's a similar thing, but it's kind of like, how are you not fighting right? I couldn't understand it. I was like, I would just soon be fighting, but they're, I mean, they're chill people and Philly too. There are, but it's not that many, you know, and that, if that had been a bar that someone grabbed someone's head and shook it violently like that, in Philadelphia, and again, just regardless of race, it would have been, I would have said a 80% chance of some sort of at least verbal, it would have been a 100% chance of verbal altercation where it's like, what the fuck are you doing? Yeah, my money at age group too. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. 5060. Maybe 20 or 20 or I was probably a fighter. Like he probably could have like killed the guy. He just was like, he's having a good time, man. I tell you, if you're in a situation where it gets confrontational, and there's one guy who's like, really chill. Yeah. Yeah, true. He's like the MMA guy, you know. Yeah. Now, you know, I'm not trying to be racist, obviously, and black people fight you if you touch, but actually, no, that's kind of true though. If you touch their heads, they're spaz. So, stand by the statement. Hey, it doesn't sound good. It doesn't sound good. I do that too. Like, I don't, but people touch my face. I don't like that at all. I'm from London. Like, yeah, fuck off. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can't touch my head. But that was, that is, yeah, I don't know. It's something I remember that made me laugh, because I remember I like, interceded on a level where the guy was like, don't worry about it. Relax, man. Like, you don't need to do all this. And I was like, all right. Well, maybe your set had made that guy so chill. May, I don't think the guy wasn't at the show. He was just a chill. He might have been the chillest guy, but I think it is just like, and I was asking people from there. And they were like, yeah, man, like, you know, we just, we fuck around this time. No one's that wound up around here in Tulsa, like to that extent. And I was like, well, that's a lot different. I'm not used to that. So. But yeah, man. So what else? So you just, you got the book, when's the book coming out? Tuesday. Tuesday. Yeah. Big day. Okay. So hold this. Well, hold this. We'll have this come out. Maybe day off, dude. We'll see. Appreciate it. That'll be nice. And what do you got? So what's on the horizon now, man? So, you know, you kind of, what are you looking to do? Because I, you know, I had you pegged as like a complete technologist, you know, technologist, kind of in terms of like, not some, I thought you were like a diehard computer guy. Mm-hmm. And you're more of just like a curious kind of, where all things go, go, go, go. Yeah. So where do you think yourself, could you predict where yourself, where you're going to go? I hope not. What's your plan? Like every few years. Like I'm amazed at what's going on. And I'm going to like that. Yeah. But like I'm working on a new book. Nice. Um, you know, I popped running this book. I've got into calisthenics. And there we go. You know, it's about a plunge and all that stuff. Bloody hard. So yeah, that's me, I'm like, you know, trying to get my kids to pay me attention now that they're in their 20s. What's that like? I have a three to five or all. Oh, yeah. I can't even imagine that. Yeah, they can't either. Like I said, to my daughter when she was 12, you know, when you turned 13, you want to hang out with me anymore. She said, no, Daddy, I'll never be like that. And like, yeah, you know, you got a text once and while. Which is great. I mean, say independent. They're doing their own. True. True. I mean, they're very impressed that like I'm coming on here. Yeah. Like two of my three kids. Really? Two of my three. And this thing, I don't know what it is. I'm like, oh my God, two of my three kids have met Shane. Nice. One of them has a picture. The one from Philly. She sent me a picture. Hell yeah. I said, I'm like, oh, okay. You know, so my kids will be in touch with me about this. So thank you. Nice. It's like for once they're impressed. Oh, they're going to call. Yeah. The book coming out. I don't matter. But oh, you know, oh, yeah. They're on that. Oh, my God. So cool. Yeah. It's awesome. Thank you. Well, dude, thank you for coming. The book's called The Story of Stories. Did you? Thanks for having me. All right. I'm not the piss of my ass. Jack, too much water. This is what I- Watch new episodes of Matt and Shane's secret podcast on Spotify. Do it.