Ep.60: MMIR Utah with Tammy Dee Platero

[Music] Why with Arsia Teculin? [Music] I am Utah. I grew up in Cache Valley, but I was born in Price, Utah. I've lived around the state. My father's family comes from Kennedsito, in New Mexico. I'm born for Edge of the Water. That's my paternal clan. My mother's family are Utah pioneers that settled part of San Pete County, if anyone knows that area. I'm a sister, cousin, and auntie and a community member. I know you have a lot of different professional experience that you bring to the table with what you're doing now, but you're mind-sharing a little bit about what are some of the different things you've been getting up to? No, absolutely. I'm, I'm, it still is a good moment to discuss it because just last week I spoke to a bunch of middle schoolers. One of the questions or what my presentation was about is where STEM can take you, and STEM can take you many different ways, and in places you probably didn't think you'd go. So my career or my interest in technology started in my early 20s, and I found that I was fascinated by computers. I grew up without the internet at home, so what I did as a kid was I loved to dance. I loved to play music. I played the viola and quartet for many years. And just getting my first exposure in college to, I'll just say of like, what is the internet and how does the internet work? And someone pulled up a command prompt for me for the first time, and I was like, what is this magic? So I found just through asking questions and being curious that I had a knack for problem solving and troubleshooting. This is a long-winded story, so what did it as we want? So I started doing technical support and learning about computers, and I found I had a knack for it, and so I decided to get a degree in computer science. And during that time, my focus was just to figure out how I could get better at solving problems. And this was an opportunity that came unexpectedly. I ended up being a. it's the program coordinator for the Center for Technology of Outreach in Ogden, like we'll go at Weber State. And it was an amazing time because I got to go to school, get my degree, help the community and get kids and folks interested in STEM because as a child, I didn't have that exposure. I did the. well, I put together a girl's welding camp, and we also did first legally while I was there. So that was about 3,000 students over the state that came to the university, and I helped organize. And because of my community work, I won the Women's Tech Council Award, or their student category, and what it was in school, too. So I have always had a strong interest in community, and before I even started computer science, my first couple of years in college, right out of high school, I was president of the Native American Student Association when I went to technical college. So it's a bit of common thread that while I've had an interest in problem solving, I've also been engaged in the community in some form. And while I was in school, while I did that job, I also had a software engineering internship. I studied abroad in Finland for a month, which was an incredible experience. And after school, I found there was much more to STEM than just software engineering. So that's where my path kind of opened up quite a bit. And I started to learn about integrations, and I'll just say, basically that in between, how do we talk for one software to another software? And I was very curious about, because blockchain was like so hot, while I was in school. And I stumbled across something called data sovereignty. And I specifically found indigenous data sovereignty, and found this niche where this movement has been happening from the 80s, where people are concerned and interested about having indigenous data sovereignty. And indigenous data owned by indigenous people, controlled by them, setting the access for it and permissions for it. And it's been sitting in the back of my mind. And so over the years, the, probably last seven years, this question has also been within me. How does technology, STEM, and data touch the systems that I interact with my day-to-day life? And while, as I grew through my technical skills, I most recently left my corporate position, which was a technical consultant, where I worked specifically with integrations. So I was learning, what is this in between-step? How do you set up one system with another? And so I think that's what has led me to today, where I'm really interested about indigenous data sovereignty and how technology can be applied in our community specifically. And I think it opens up a wide range of curiosities and possibilities and conversations, and by no means an expert, but it's something I'm curious to learn more about. I'm gonna ask a couple of quick follow-ups for just like, however you feel my best briefly defined couple of terms. Yeah. So you mentioned blockchain. What's blockchain for those who don't know what blockchain is? It's totally cool. I mean, no, that's a great question. I, I think there's a big hype that blockchain just means money or like Bitcoin. But think of blockchain as a ledger. It's a way to have information that can't be edited, for example. It has certain capabilities that are really powerful. So if you want to maintain a ledger that you know hasn't been tampered with, it's been the data in there is written by the person it says it is. You want to make sure it's verified. It's trustworthy. It's, you know, it's transoperable. Like we can talk to one another in the same language. Like that's the power of it. So simply I would just say blockchain is a really fancy digital ledger with extra capabilities of trust. Nice. What about integrations? Okay. Yeah. That's a good point. Think about integrations as a business. You have HR software. You have a payroll software. You have all of these different systems that help you. Well, let's say you get a new system. How are you going to combine that new software with all of them together? You can think of it as how do you talk from one system to another because everything has to maintain like some type of highway of information. So if your payroll system doesn't talk to your time system, that's a big problem. So you've got to find out how to integrate them. If that helps. Another way that my job was described, and I think this is a good one, because most folks were coming to that software company to set up this whole new software package. So I was acting as a consultant. Like what are your current systems and what will it take to get you into a new system. So if you think of all these systems as like a will when you're making a new software or and changing to a new software system, you're taking out the hub and all those little spokes and then to integrate you have to put in a new hub and all of these new spokes to integrate to anyone. If that's a helpful visual metaphor. That's awesome. So that's great. And I bring it up because when I have like students and increasingly every year they seem younger and I seem older. And I remember dial up and sometimes I have to explain to them what that is. Some of them know, and even the internet sometimes is taken for granted. Absolutely. Especially a generation that is currently at least for me. Right? I got students who are coming in and they can take it from Green, they grew up with fast internet. Right? And it's just there. And you know, their symbols for pictures with a phone versus a camera, you know, or the assumption that everything's a touchscreen. Right? Like, it's just some things that I noticed. So I like to always kind of deconstruct it a little bit. And I think about the origins of the internet too and like the DARPA network and like the Cold War and the military and public funding and universities that give us this incredible tool on one hand. But then there's this other side of it of who's controlling it, what are the rules of governance and I like how you kept talking about different systems and communication. And so we're going to talk about this more. So just the primer. Sure. But if there was like a entry point to understanding what data sovereignty is, which I think is a response to, right, like all this information that's becoming increasingly available and now more than ever. But then I don't know, I kind of feel like it's like, well, pump the brakes and like you talked about reliability and verifiability and how would you say what's a good little entry point to data sovereignty and we can impact that some more as we go? I think that's a great question. And quite frankly, I mean, I'm learning myself. So I hope this explanation helps others. But it's been a, yeah, like a movement since the 80s and I think that entry point is, I like Canada's OCAP principles and that's where you can learn about that ownership, control, access and permissions. I think that anamiki technology has a wonderful ebook and talks about what data even is because in indigenous folks in our communities data isn't just digital. Data is patterns. It's materials. It's, I would even say, like knowledge about plans, traditional ecological knowledge. There's all kinds of different data that exists outside of just ones and zeros. So learning about OCAP principles and then the ethical framework, like fair, also it was very helpful. There's also some amazing organizations, the US indigenous data sovereignty alliance. Those guys are great. And if you're a big nerd, there's also a new IEEE standard that was published earlier this year that also specifically goes into data sovereignty itself, which is amazing to actually have that because the IEEE is like, think of it as the standards for the internet in a nutshell. So there's, but I would start there. I would start with the US indigenous data sovereignty alliance and just look them up online and then look at anamiki's ebook because I think that's an excellent reference. But yeah, quite, quite simply though. And again, I'm just from my own view. Like, it's exciting to see this taking route in the US because we have models that have been done from Canada, the first peoples before us. And then we also have Maury and New Zealand people who have been doing this for quite a while. So I think it's just exciting that the US is also like joining it. And it's not just divided by continent or anything. These principles are worldwide as an indigenous community, which is also incredible. So that was a long path, but. No, that's great. That's great. That's good. And. So in thinking about data sovereignty, you've shifted, right? And then you came out of this corporate world and got clear signs background. You've been involved in indigenous community stuff for your whole life. It sounds like. And then you've made this shift in terms of professionally and became a founder of MMI or Utah. Let's start there. Like, what was that? Whatever you're comfortable with sharing in terms of the shift that I know you're interested in so many things. So what was it that kind of pulled you to this and beginning to apply your computer science background and this issue of data sovereignty to this incredibly pressing issue around MMI R. Yeah. Well, and I do want to have a little correction, too, because I don't want to give people the wrong impression, because how I grew up, I felt I was very disconnected from my community. And by that, I mean, since probably like fifth or sixth grade, you know, until college. And so I had a period of my life where I felt very alone. Like my parents were divorced. Like my mom didn't know about Title VI. So I wasn't around other Native kids. My brother, it's probably the. You know? I think there was less than five Native American students in my high school, in my class growing up. But I remember being very adamant and asking my father who I was, who my clans were, and how I fit. I don't actually really know why it was so important. But I just remember asking, and thankfully I did, because today, now I have that type of knowledge about my family, which I felt, you know, I wouldn't be lucky enough to have today if I didn't. So I have to add that preface, because for a long time, I thought that my identity or where I came from culturally didn't matter. So when I went to school, it was more of, I want to show service to other people. I want to do community work. But I never really thought that it truly mattered. And about six years ago or so when I was exposed to my R and missing a murdered indigenous relatives, that's my heart changed, because I have grown up in Utah my whole life when I loved this place. And so it was disturbing to me to find the disproportionate numbers. So once I made that connection with it myself that, you know, actually where I come from does matter. My identity does matter. If I went missing, I would be one of those statistics and meeting people in the community and knowing that this was happening where I live, it just disturbed me. So it was something that I didn't expect. I didn't necessarily seek out this work. I felt moved and it was specifically like from a dear friend hearing her speak. And it was a very simple ask. You know, when I heard about this too, it was at Rallien Salt Lake, and I remember going to. And, yeah, I mean there was like at least a thousand people there. But for some reason I just felt like that message just came straight to my heart. And so that's when I was like, well, if the ask is to just do what you can, well I want to find out who's doing the work and who's here and what does this look like in Utah? And, you know, I've been so focused on my career feeling a sense of safety and securing stability for my family that I felt like how could I have missed something so extreme? And so really from that moment it's been doing my best to follow our pledge and what we have is an eight things to say instead of silence. So one of our first things we ask folks is to like understand the history. Like where is your specific history? How does it fall within the history of Utah and where you live? And that was one of the things I did. I had to learn and for myself where my family comes from. What was that interaction with indigenous folks to the people who came here in Utah? It's like my father with the Lehman Eye Program. You know, we've talked about really seeing how all these different forces have changed Utah's culture and why I am here today. And again, I don't know everything but I always feel more and more humbled by life. Just the complexities that we all live with every day. So that was like one of the steps, you know. We have other things like show up, you know, so going to these events, finding these people and trying to contribute my talents. And one of the first things I found is that they need to help with their website, with a bunch of grassroots folks. I was like, you know what, that's actually something I can do. I can actually do that. So I started to just learn and help out where I could, you know, even if it was just as simple as answering an email or doing something like that. So it all started like very slowly. But you know, while I'm living, I felt like I could see the beginning of this fork or pathway where my corporate job is very much focused on productivity, you know, making sure I'm, you know, it's the grind, it's the salary job, it's, you know, what am I doing? And I just started and noticed these things every time where my community work was becoming larger in my life. And it was hard. It was hard to go through these steps. It was hard to ask like why I don't know my language. It was hard. And it was hard to see grief and be there for people in my life. And then it's, I started to notice that in my corporate job, I was talking about MMR. And then along the way, I started a belonging council for Indigenous folks because it was a worldwide company, a global company. So I created a space for people of that company who are an Indigenous and I learned a lot there too. And I got to meet people in New Zealand all across the world just through my corporate experience. And it was incredible. I got to learn about just what everyone was up to and what it looked like in their area. And then I'd come back after, you know, after working. And then I would be in Utah. And I would be here and I would see that there was this aching and longing for, you know, this issue everywhere in the grassroots community that I saw. It was, you know, how we met through food, you know, simply through all just call that Indigenous sovereignty. I was seeing how people wanted space in the community, you know. I was seeing how families just didn't have the support they needed. And it was during that time too to see the task force report released. There was all these things that were just like happening. And so last fall I just decided to or felt that leap of faith, whereas like, you know, this has become so important to my life and the work that I'm doing and how I personally feel called to serve. You know, serve my creator, my community, the people around me. It felt just so important that I decided to quit and do this nonprofit full time or do it I can. So it's not just a change or it wasn't like a plan that I set out to do. I honestly feel like all of these transitions in my life have been moments of changes in my value system. And that's why I constantly feel that I'm learning and unlearning things where in the corporate world and as a kid I felt like my value was productivity. My value was what I could do to perform, my value in what I could produce for a company. And more and more I saw that my value is just the person that I am, the presence that I can bring to help people. I use my talents and gifts that I have developed over time, but it was the change in my value system that it is more important for us to help and show love for one another that really let me hear. Amazing. With that and you talk about, you know, Utah and you mentioned this in the past, but I think it's important for folks to realize, like there was a few things that you've mentioned to me in the past that was like, was it being tracked in terms of the data? And what I would deal with folks outside of Utah and I love how you express this great love for this place because it is a beautiful place and there's amazing things here. It also challenges politically and even with like that first step that you talk about being aware of the history here and all those things. What are some of the things that you've noticed and in terms of how that informed like, pushing for what in terms of what like, it seemed like, okay, this isn't being done, but pushing for this change at the policy level in terms of tracking can help approaching this issue in a different way. I love specifics because I like actions, I like actions, I like projects and that's your exactly right because even during that first rally I remember and this is what stuck in my mind, one of the statistics besides like the high disproportionate violence rate was there wasn't a database in Utah for missing or murdered indigenous relatives at all. And in my mind, you know, my brain just exploded because I was like, how is that possible? You know, I don't understand. And so exactly that, like why isn't there a database and if there's not one then how do we create one? And I say we is just kind of like our broader community. And it's funny you mentioned that because I was like, I looked through my emails a couple months ago and I remember finding the first one I sent and it was like, to restoring ancestral winds, I was like, I heard that there isn't a database for this like why? Like, I'm just, you know, a little technology student but I want to know. So yes, like that's what I'm trying to close that gap. And I'll just say that there's, I think there's multiple components of it and what we're looking to do now is create a community database because what we know, the reason why people don't report their cases or why it looks like there's not an issue under like DPS or another parts of Utah is because folks don't trust the state or they don't trust those government agencies. So how can we start to create our own community database where those stories are held in reverence and confidence within us because we know that at least 50% of the cases are under reported. So that's what we're looking to do and legislatively I hope that, you know, the more we continue on this, the more we'll actually get some help. I do just want to see it like just exist to begin with because right now we don't even have like an MMR person in a state office yet. There's other things that even this bill that we're working on. I know we can't officially lobby as if I once or three but, you know, just through our work what we're trying to do is take all those task force recommendations that was done in about 2021 to 2023 and take them off that paper and put them into practice. So another big component is training, training for law enforcement within our organization or our grassroots and then you know, Tarno and Profit Now. We also see a huge need of training for media, how cases are represented and so we've been working with the University of Utah, the communications department to and the Utah Investigative Journalism Project. They've been wonderful partners to help us create a pilot I would say or you know, starting this database and collecting stories in a good way. You know, what does training look like for journalists, how can we communicate about this issue better, is like a larger community. So that's what we'd like to see in this upcoming bill, the one that we most recently submitted in January and that was just for training under Department of Health and Human Services. Under the, there's a specific American or Native American Alaska Native Department under there. But it doesn't outline exactly how it's going to be done. So what I'd like to see is that it's a community centered and we can all work together through our nonprofit and my or Utah and also working with the Utah Domestic Violence Coalition and other groups to talk or like Ucasa to talk about what that training looks like and how we can work together like as a state to address this. Because the big part of this is that it intersects with so many other issues that we have in general and I shouldn't say in general but issues of domestic violence, issues of sexual assault. And so I would love to see just more of a response legislatively that includes some of these trainings and a collection of this information that's done in a good way and make sure that it centered around community first. So that's what I'd really love to see, but there's so much work that needs to be done. And I'm really proud of our team. We also partnered with Salt Lake Community College, and just, it's been an incredible experience. To have that type of partnership, I don't know if I can name names, but yeah, Professor A Robles. Because he, with his class, has done an MMIR research toolkit. So not only, like, do we now have all the legislative recommendations from that task force report for the state? Now we have a community created research toolkit on the data, how it can be collected, what information is missing, and what we can do to improve it in the years going forward. And I think combining that with a training element is going to be really powerful. So I'll just say there is a lot to do, but I think that it's all possible in time. But this year, that's the small goal, just the training and some type of like that with the state. So we'll see. That's a lot to share. It is massive, you know, I think that for me, it's like the constant reminder, engaging in the mainstream, because when being in like indigenous circles, be the academic sector, or community, or otherwise, like, there's a different starting point, right? Like there's, there's, you know all this stuff, and then there's a different level of awareness, and then you get back to the nation and say, "Oh, yeah, that's right." You don't know. And so it's like, okay, maybe folks are still here, living, this is not a new issue, this is connected to colonization, and all that. And so it takes a lot of patience and a lot of practical generosity, I'd call it, you know, in terms of being so great to hear those shifts and movements. One other thing, and then we'll have another cup. But it related to this is, you know, as it relates to data server, to you mentioned to me the other day as well, like, being able to assert like autonomy over the database, which is such a big thing, right? And so we mentioned that there is that, for very good reasons, ongoing distrust with institutions of power, be they governmental, or even academic, or otherwise, and so being able to shift the relational dynamic there of like, how to be in service to or of Indigenous land and based organizations, rather than housing it. So I find I know for academia, that's a long ongoing issue of working on like, where does this information data knowledge wisdom, et cetera, reside and who has not just access to it, but the power of telling that in certain ways. I don't mind saying a little bit about that, how like, MMI or Utah has kind of shifted that a little bit and said like, you're working with all these folks, but they're working in relation to your organization and helping that trust with the different tribal nations and even urban interests populations. Yes, and this is what I'm most interested in as well, because it's, we're creating something new and where it's exploratory and who knows what it will look like specifically for Utah. I think that there needs to be different kinds of databases, I'll put it that way. One, it would be the community-centered database that we're working on and that's in partnership with the University of Utah journalists and community members. And I would love to see that housed, you know, on actual tribal land, whether, you know, most likely start out, this is pretty simple, a little server, but you know what, we could make it happen for our community. And exactly that, like, even the maintenance over time, like the truth is that we're going to need more indigenous technologists. Simply that's it. We can create something and we can develop it, we can start it up, but there's going, in my view, what I'm seeing is that there's going to be lots of MOUs. There's got to be different agreements between, you know, even tribes, you know, and also what information should be kept. And so, so far, we've kind of drafted what we think that beginning of that, you know, may look like, but I also think that we have to have accountability. And this is where I do think that whether this is done through a bill, legislation, you know, something, but we do need a number from the Department of Public Safety because law enforcement also has to show us. If we show our community numbers and we decide what that information is public, they don't have to know or they, you know, they, we can set a permission level for someone who's outside of our community. You can decide then, like, what the state sees. But if we show the state, hey, this is the number that we have for the state of Utah and it's three times the number that you have, why it doesn't your number match. That's a way to keep them accountable. So, I want to see, you know, just, like Colorado, I think has a great model for it too. They have a specific, I'll just say page where it shows people who are missing these cases where they're lashing what county's information numbers. And their database started with a grassroots movement just like ours where people were gathering this data, putting it together, and then it became a bill, allegedly. But for Utah and how we're starting, I would just love to see both. We still have an accountability type of dashboard that the state shows us. And then as a community, there are certain things that, you know, just not, that maybe it's reserved for people within that community. So, I see, I'll just say, like, kind of both. And I'm curious to see how we evolve too, you know. But that's really how I see it going on. So, I've also described MMI or Utah because we are a nonprofit or 501C3 as a point on the trust triangle. And to describe this a bit more clearly, because trust has been broken between our indigenous community and Utah and the state. Like that's just one, one-to-one relationship has been broken. A way to rebuild trust is to add in a trusted third party. That's what a trust triangle comes in. So, also, what I'm seeing or sensing is that if we have a nonprofit that is gathering this information under indigenous data sovereignty principles, we can be that part of that bridge to rebuild trust. We're also not law enforcement. So, what information comes to us is, you know, we're not going to be saying anything. So, people can decide what they want to share with us or what they don't want to share. And if they do want help to look at other agencies, like we're more than happy to help. But I just see our role as rebuilding that trust within our communities. And I honestly don't see us like in the future in generations. I hope that as some point MMI or Utah is no longer needed. And I think actually that will happen. But we don't have to have this crisis in our communities anymore. Like that will be a good day because we're solving an issue that has been ongoing for a very long time. And I just look forward to that point where we're just not needed anymore. However, like our issues specifically right now still needs to be safeguarded. And I see that data in our lifetimes needs to be protected. It needs to be community centered. But, you know, we've talked to like I have other many other interests. But I also see just this idea under Indigenous Data Sovereign Two Principles or government systems as well. Like applying to cultural stories and aviation stories. So what we're building as well, I see as like a model or a blueprint that can be applied to other things that our community needs to keep sacred or within our own community. So I hope that helps tie this together. Yeah, no. Okay. Let's get on. In case there's those who you know are need to MMR. You know, it is a heavy reality, you know, of disparities around violence, particularly on Indigenous communities. And I would say say it's continental, it appears differently in different ways across the continents. I think about some of the work that's being done like I should know what the malai and you know combating femicide and really heavy realities around all forms of violence, particularly against women and femme folks but not exclusive to that as well. But I wanted to just share a little bit of some of the legacy and history that I'm aware of and then you can respond however you'd like but also what we've talked about in terms of like reimagining a little bit because I think you know it is heavy, we should ignore it, we have to face it and confront it but also being able to like creatively respond to like rethinking the past and then what might have been and we can't go back but like in those exercises where might we go that can lead to what you shared so beautifully of like when this isn't needed anymore right so it is a work that is designed to ultimately end and that's a really important component of it. I was thinking about playing the pop culture around this like my guilty pleasure right and I'm really snobby about it but my partner knows I watched so many things for research purposes of course right and I was thinking about like Utah and thinking about the national perspective and then perhaps even international perspective you know I think Utah you know Mormons, polygamy those are like the big hot ones that always come up right and I'm thinking about some recent while fairly recent we have like under the banner of heaven which is about you know this tragic murder case in Utah but in the final episode of that series they bring up the Mountain Meadows Nescoor and for the first time in like mainstream pop culture I saw some of the Paiute perspective which was really cool to see in terms of oh like this you know this indigenous community in southern Utah got blamed for it for so many generations and this was a little bit of a course correct slightly in the pop culture of like actually a big part was they were blamed for it and you even have that playing Indian component of people who are committing this massacre dressing up as natives trying to which is not a new thing in the US history Philip DeLory wrote the book playing Indian and goes all the way back to the Boston Tea Party where people will talk about the tipping tea but often what was being overlooked is they were dressed up as natives and we're trying to blame yeah we have natives for that right so dressing up as natives is like not a new thing I remember watching like the Disney old school David Crockett and like the River Pirates as a kid that was on Disney and anyways I'm not recommending you go watch these or that you need to but I just remember watching it and I'm like there's just one scene in there where all these River Pirates quote unquote are dressed up as native but they're not and it was like this strategy that's this ongoing legacy in the US of dressing up as native to blame natives for stuff that this new wave of people are committing and doing and so the Matt and Matt is massacres one the other one was American Prime Evil I didn't see that one okay and I know that one had mixed responses too and but like that opens up with the Matt and Matt is massacred and I think internally in Utah the mainstream kind of colonial perceptions are we don't talk about that and that's not even there and so that's the one that isn't getting pushed to being talked about and that's not even one that features the massacres against indigenous folks right the Mountain Manus massacres a group of pioneers from Arkansas who are traveling through Utah and they're essentially massacred by Mormon settlements in southern Utah and I remember in the American Prime Evil knowing a little bit of that history watching the opening scene and I was like oh was that supposed to be the Mountain Manus massacres because that's not how I've read about it and I was confused because I have the way started it opened out because my understanding was there was like a siege for several days and I think the true story is even worse because if I remember correctly it's like on the fourth day or something that the Mormon settlers are like all right we're gonna let you go as long as you pass through and leave Utah but essentially that was a way to kind of break the siege and as they're leaving that's when they massacred them and they've essentially killed everybody who's not appearing to be younger than six years old so that there can be no living witnesses and so then that I thought was like worse than what was depicted and I could have depicted it really violently and so we could see like it's like very like viscerally you know rough to watch that opening scene but it kind of confused me because like oh that's not how I remember it and they do have like Noah Daikwa or like Shoshone language featured and I know that that was praise and what people are wearing and women leadership if I remember right I think there was perspectives that were a little more critical so I saw a few different ones like so you know in Disney's folks who are like let's go with the languages there others who are like there's some issues here and that's how always goes the pop culture but I mentioned those because those are recent that feature something in Utah but it's a massacre that is important and that should have been ignored and I think in Utah's history has been for a long time and I'm like there's so many others where it isn't talked about there's a battle creek massacre there's the pro river massacre there's the bear river massacre there's the extermination act there's the you know and then even just a hundred years ago what was quote unquote poses war which was putting pipes into concentration camps and you met new my mesa folks so I mean that's just like a handful already black hawk war none of which are in the pop culture consciousness and and a big part of the thing going on that time is trafficking and slave trade and there's the way I understand it is I'm sorry I'm nerding out please please oh I'll finish I'll finish on this brief one but there's an African-American historian called Gerald Horn and he wrote this book called The Apocalypse of Settler Colonialism and he kind of frames these like two parallel forms of enslavement there's the one that is targeted on indigenous folks American Indians across the continents and then the later one that is a response to that that is featuring the anti-black racist version and they parallel but they're different where one is chattel slavery and legalized publicly and the other one is coming out of early forms of enslavement but then ends up in like the the quieter kind of non-legal trafficking routes and so he kind of helps me frame like the modern version of the chattel slavery anti-black racist slavery we see in modern day prisons in the 13th amendment that didn't abolish slavery it got rid of chattel slavery in the public but legalized slavery through incarceration and that's why we see the disparities there but then we have him in my art and we have like the other trafficking so I see like these parallel histories and with more repinters you have and we have to go back to Spanish and Mexico as well because Utah has both of those histories but the big impact is 1847 and there are some enslaved Africans who come in with that but in the early war as there's also a big catalyst to of the trafficking happening of people right children being kidnapped and sold primarily indigenous victims of that and a lot of people are involved in it's very messy history but I think about that as this kind of precursor of all these other things we don't talk about in Utah of you know leading up to we have this ongoing issue of missing inverted and as relatives and it's not a new issue it takes on new faces and new forms but I wanted to share that because I realized that in the mainstream we have less awareness of these but you had recently talked to a group that I brought to listen to you and you had talked about kind of imagining a little bit differently the history here and I thought it was just really powerful in terms of using that as a tool and a strategy again not that we can go to the past but if we rethink the past and reimagine and present different scenarios how might we reconfigure our present I know I kind of went along with it but pass it to you no please I was like I always love like that you share your knowledge with me because of every time I'm like oh my gosh there's so much more there's so much more like so thank you um I just wow I'm also just like it is such a heavy subject and you're right I feel like I personally can't hold all of those things in my consciousness because it's so much has happened it's it's wild to think about and just even in Utah you know we're just this just this little section and so much has happened so no just like thank you for being more winded and sharing um but yes I loved this is and also because you're touching on that very important point that this has always been happening it's historical and when we go and speak to folks um we start with that intro that there was a relationship that indigenous folks had to their sense of place and that disruption then caused that ripple effect for missing and murdered so what you're speaking about when I tried to think about um the history of Utah and think of another another way and I guess maybe I should start over a little bit, but re-imagining the history or what it could have looked like also comes from one of my dear friends and mentors, Clint Harper. He's an incredible person, but this is his specialty is in aviation and how he asks, you know, when he asked me a different question in regards to his area of focus in aviation, I wanted to know what that looked like, especially within MMIR. So I guess the biggest question I had or applying that question was thinking 200 years ago about Utah and what did it look like to begin with. And there are stories or what I've heard from my limited knowledge, like the Jordan River had muscle growing in it, that this was an area that had abundant food, that the water was like the Jordan River now, like you don't necessarily want to drink out of. You know, the Great Salt Lake is the lowest level it has been in 200 years. It's threatened all the time that, you know, like we're on the cusp of it disappearing. And so when I think about 200 years ago, people coming in and seeing this valley for the first time, if instead, if their mindset had shifted to what people here were, and that instead of interacting or having a relationship with the land that was extractive or it was built on this idea of capital or putting fences, instead if it was, what does it look like to move as the people that are already here in the sense that there's a responsibility and relationship to the rivers and waters, what would our society look like today. I think about it a lot too, just in terms of water, because how irrigation happened was about 200 years ago, and that's where we see the separation from the three main waterways from the Great Salt Lake. So what would it have looked like to it? Those canals hadn't been created. Would we have been in the same type of crisis that we are now with the Great Salt Lake? I think it would have been different if we had had these types of views just, I'll just say assimilated to the native folks in this area. And to me, the reimagining I guess is in my mind, I have lots of different ideas or pictures of what indigenous features of can be, and we've discussed it many times too, but I would love to see a place or an idea where food is still abundant, you know, just quite simply, maybe it's not necessarily walking down to the Jordan River itself and just like catching fish, but like it's there, and all of us can still survive off even in the population that we have now. Or Utah Lake, Utah Lake would that still have gone away? Like now there's a subdivision of housing built on portions of it. The relationship and responsibility to that lake would have been different. If we had just, I'll just say interacted with it as it also, the landed self is just not purely extractive. So I feel like we can take this in lots of different pathways now, but yeah, definitely because I think that parallels to what you're doing with MMO Utah and in creating that third party in the triangle, right? Like there is that very understandable mistrust and issue, but being able to come in and imagine something different and respond to it differently, so that something else might be like to me, I see parallel to that and imagining, yeah, like to adapt to the ecological limits when folks arrived in large impact ways here and assimilate to indigenous rules of governance, right? You know, I think that's kind of speaking to some of the movements right now, right? And thinking about, all right, if that's the case, what happens if there was a shit? I was thinking about it this way, because you talk about the shift earlier too, and I think about, for me, I see this cultural crisis of like if we could shift, then I think there's different things that can be like, we also don't have to go in the direction that we're going. Right? Well, I was just saying, like, what are my favorite places to think about or reimagine is the worm springs? Right? Yeah, because you can read about what happened there too, like when people, and just to give people or folks an idea of what that is, the worm springs is a part of, I'll just say Northern Salt Lake, but it sees natural worm springs, and people have been using it for who knows how long, probably thousands of years. You can see these plaques or writings about how it was used as people came here at two, so people used to bathe there very simply, then they had part of it for, I think it was like a steam, just do, the steam was used for some type of factory or something like that, but it has this interesting juxtaposition because when measles came here as well, people saw that as a place to heal, so people were dying like the minute they touched that spring water, and they're still buried there, so I think there's maybe, well, I don't even want to speculate on the count, but and now, like what it is now, and it's very small, it's, when there's lots of ideas of how it could be used, what it can turn into, and what I would love to see is I don't have a better term other than like rematriation, I would love to see instead of it as a place that's been neglected over time because it's special, it's just this ecological wonder and and special to tribes in this area too, but to see like weaves removed first of all, you know, and seeing these springs like brought back to a healthy state, but then I think that there's two ways in our mind because of the time that we're in, like do we now make it into a spa and sell spa experiences over these like sacred waters, or is there an opportunity to build something new? Like what would it look like if we had indigenous knowledge taught to people in that area? One thing I see that's missing and I'm always grateful when people share is, you know, even how to interact with a space, what does it look like for the elders in that area to interact or teach us what it looks like to treat the springs in a reverent way? Like first of all, how do we interact and make that relationship with the land there? But you know, what does it also look like to just have people in that community like interact and use it again, what it was traditionally used for, whether that's bathing or prayers or other things, like and seeing it as an actual community location and not just a place that's neglected, where you can see oil or fine rays across the street, you know, a neglected unhoused population, but over the hill then you can see sacred places like for the more dominant religion here, just over the horizon that has manicured lawns and, you know, perfect plants. Like I wanted to see what that would look like or what that process would look like. [Music] Indigenous folks like have always had this relationship with responsibility to land or the environment where I feel like that's where we're catching up to in Western civilization. So like this new model of economy isn't anything new, we're just asking for the environment to also be considered. Yeah. So that's really it. Yeah, like I think about there was this a Stanford professor who's at the Indigenous data sovereign conference last month or two, but he like baked drones and they grew them out in my celium. I thought that was amazing. It's like it's just the extra step of completing the cycle. That's it. Like there's not externalities that are going to pollute someone or create toxic chemicals or you know like everyone can be welcome to the space, you know. Yeah. It's like, I don't know. So I would like to think, but I know it's not always so clear, but just that if we did have a civil, if folks had come here and assimilated to the culture and environment, that we would like one have just clear air. I can't believe how much like, who we suffer here just purely because of that. - Yeah. - I would like to think better transportation routes too. (laughing) - I feel like that's, you can go through the experience and figure out like, okay, there's a crisis, we have to change, or we can say, maybe there's lessons from thousands of years of living in a place, and it's not to romanticize people, human beings make mistakes, there's conflict, there's always like, you know, all the hands of singing can buy out, but in terms of ecological sustainability, like night and day, it distinctions in terms of, there is a commonality of understanding the limits of needing clean water. And I think about looking, it's just me putting on my anthro hat for a moment, just briefly, right? But, you know, one of the first archaeological sites here in Utah after the, like, Bonneville's receding, you know, includes fish hooks, and it's very kind of a aquatic relationship, thousands of years ago, right? And there's evidence of like intensive agriculture, about 3,000 years ago, to about 1,000 years ago, men and stops. And to me, I'm like, that's an important lesson. People adapted to this place over a massive amount of time, and people stopped doing intensive agriculture around 1,000 years ago, not going to have the exact dates on top of my head. And they began to live differently, because you had to live differently, and we see you drought, not just the great basin, but the southwest, even in Mesoamerican, you see these massive shifts across this expansive continent, where very different cultures, but all indigenous cultures to the Americas, begin to live differently, and change the way they live, and consciously abandon sites and move to different sites or adapt. And that was always, you know, while things are always complex, people were still adapting. So when people show up, I mean, like, you know, maybe you can listen, instead of having to experience the crisis, like there's lessons you had mentioned that, like, oh, what would it be to like, instead of having a spa, like learning how to relate differently to a place, and that requires listening, that requires a certain level of, like, humility? - No, that's absolutely true. And I love it too, that it's like, you're saying that obvious, it's like, we have these, so we avoid crisis. Like, when I'm, you know, I think about two about the Colorado River. Oh, yeah, I'm already, yeah. It's a whole other one. - Yeah, it was like, no one could see us, but like, both making the same expression, like, oh, like, (laughs) but no, and that's that traditional ecological knowledge, like, I got so excited, I wish I could remember her name, but she was studying peaches, and found that they were like native to America, and can you disay? But the reason the big reason we like, didn't know that is 'cause like, when people came, they burned, you know, and so, but right, like, interacting with places that they didn't know were already had a technology applied to it, like those forests or gardens, like, that we're seeing, but because it didn't look like a monocrop of, like, rose, like, they weren't recognized, and I had one thing too that I just, I would love to see again, it's just, I always think about water in the lake, because it's just so essential for all of us, but especially here in Utah, where the Great Salt Lake also impacts our snow, and I think people miss that a lot too, like, we have the greatest snow on Earth here, because of the salt in the Great Salt Lake. So, just us, like, having this, the balance that we're in, the direction it's going in, is not, you know, considering, like, all of the life that could be there, like, how much that can be, and instead, we're like, let's build a data center. (laughing) Let's do that instead, because somehow magically it's not gonna affect the lake or whatever it starts at all. Like, come on now, like, but exactly that, like, and that's where I think the governance principles are really interesting, where it's like, how can that application or relationship, you know, be done differently? How is the decision making or governance change? How can it be changed? Because right now, even though everyone knows that the lake isn't kind of dire, circumstances, and we are all filling the effects of the pollution from it, too, and of course, it impacts one of the most, like, we're poorer areas in our state, too, like, we're that section in the city. Instead of it being decided by the people who are impacted most, it's decided by a few people who are not going to be impacted by the effects at all. Whereas, what does a governance system look like, where it's actually the people that are affected, you know? And I think at some point, like, we will have to come to a head, and that's what I don't, I wrestle with a lot. Well, I shouldn't, I don't know, I guess, I guess there's a form of acceptance, and I know at some point, like, we will just have to change because we're human beings, and, like, maybe we have to hit that edge, but I want to see that, where it's like, people and that decision-making has to be changed. Like, we can't operate the same way that we do currently, 'cause it, quite frankly, it just doesn't make sense. If all the water that we have in Utah, you know, it doesn't flow down, I heard it just flows towards money, which makes more sense here. Unfortunately, like, all the rest of our state is gonna be out of luck. So, I just think, like, there's gonna be some type of breaking point, and when that breaking point happens, I want to see enough for more people from our native communities talk about what that decision-making process can look like, because I shouldn't say afraid, but there seems to be a tendency to just ignore the problem, and then we have a system that is just one person or a very small group again decides for the rest of us. And I think we really do have an amazing opportunity right now where our community can show a different model. I think that there's lots of creativity too, that's just kind of going out the window. I mean, in Utah, I'll just say, like, I know that we're one and a half percent in population. So, we're small, but I think that there is, I'll just say, like, there are advantages in that, in that because we're a small community, lots of people in our community are multi-talented. They're artists, they're technologists, they're creators, they're educators, they're parents, like all at once. I'm never surprised when I interact with someone in our community where they're managing multiple things. Like, just on the side, you know, just run a couple of businesses, or I do this, or I do that, you know, it's always impressive to me. So, we're a small group, we're mobile, and just incredible. I'll go back to it, it's like artists and creators, 'cause I think that's where our community has a lot of, like, pull. We can show a different model that exists. It's just like, how can we show people that it does exist one? And the big point that you've pointed out too is that means people have to listen, and I don't know what that looks like personally. I really don't. Other than like, we, all I know how to do is, is actions and being able to show. That's it. I'm not a great speaker, but I do know that, like, actions count for something. So, I guess maybe I'm just like optimistic. (laughing) I think all that all happened in good time. (laughing) - Yeah. - Yeah. - Good to know. So, think about all the amazing stuff you're doing and that you've shared, and so much more to come to, and kind of in some of these more recent points that you've made. I'm thinking about another element of MMR Utah that I really like, and you've already done it, like in what we've been talking about, these are interconnected, right? The ecological crisis is a cultural crisis is tied to the MMR Utah. There's a historical baggage that's ongoing, and you've mentioned in the past, and I know those current projects as well, like healing and tying that to water, and whether that's addressing the water crisis that we have, and all the lakes and water bodies that you mentioned, and the lake, but also incorporating art and different mediums in response to that. And we're always thinking the future now. And so thinking in that time travel sense too, living the past and the present as well, and if you want to share a little bit about how you've interconnected both water and MMR and art in the work that you're doing, and how you see those interconnected. - Yeah, no, absolutely. And I'll say those are the campaigns that I created for MMR Utah specifically. and those. to me were the response for the task force themes. There was four major missing ones and Neckles back to like trust and and other things but um yeah let me let me try and sum it up for folks because sometimes I wonder yeah how did how did I do all this or like how does this make sense um first of all I feel a lot of this work is prayer i'm just gonna say it out loud maybe that's those two cheesy for everyone but I mean a lot of it is just taking time to really sit with all of these things and I think that's where my technology background and problem solving and integration experience helps because I can't look at anything as an isolated incident everything has interconnectedness and in an indigenous mindset that's also what we're thinking about everything is connected and so um how I see all of this happening is I start with our rematriation campaign which you just um put better than I could honestly uh just is what does it look like to reimagine sacred waters in Utah restored to their to their sacredness and with that comes um ceremony and this is where we've done our help that where we could to put funds and help rebuild like a spot lodge a sloth's winter and um I see different things happening under this area but just seeing that this sense of life is tied to women the women are life givers they carry water in their bodies like what we're saying is that we want to see a rematriation of that kind where there is a parallel between the water crisis that we see in Utah right now to the violence uh that's been done to women historically so what does it look like to repair in in parallel or in tandem if we can repair our relationship with the sacredness of water can that also repair the relationship that we have towards needed women in our community so that's the idea in a nutshell um and that's under our rematriate campaign and then we move on to our reclamation campaign which is reclaiming story and narrative which you shared before which is wonderful about the history of Utah but what does it look like exactly for the bear ribbers not battle but renaming it a massacre and what it is having indigenous and native folks reclaim their own story and share their own story so even if um it's translated or shared elsewhere native people really get to to reclaim their own narrative and then I see our third one is all about sovereignty I think this can touch many areas that we've um even explored within MMIR which is restoring that sense of of place so asserting sovereignty where we live I think that's a big part of our data sovereignty project in the future I would also love to see food sovereignty then you know in our organization like what does it look like for every indigenous person in Utah to get nutrient dense foods and foods that are local to Utah I would love to see that someday um but uh this is also falls under wells like the indigenous people's rights passed by the UN you know in America we have our own sense of it too but native folks have the right to their own language their own education their own systems and practices and then the fourth one I've tied in is all about medicine forward and this is instead of a reactive response we have a proactive response so this is where I see art flourishing this is where I see our future leaders growing we have our we've joined the Imagine Girl Society cohort 2025 to 2027 so we're teaching or have a curriculum that's based on indigenous leadership healthy relationships um sacred plants and gardening and that's for like our youth and then right now we have a euro project which is an incredible piece it's going to be at Piaquai which also I think is just lovely because that's where we first met and if you all just say like there's a video and if yours are interested and they also go to our website at mmyrweeta.org and see the video that Michaela uh parish has done which I have I recommend but she's also tied in those themes of the tribes water and also just the indigenous presence that a lot of time when I interact with someone about mmyr they think that it's isolated to only reservation area and that's just not true what we know so far or to uh or I'll say what we know so far from the urban Indian health institute study was that Salt Lake City also ranks within the top 10 cities in the nation with these cases and Salt Lake City is our capital city so um I want to see where or I would like to imagine more of a presence of our community here that people know that we come we're not a homogeneous group we come in many different backgrounds uh different tribes even on the wasatch front you know there's maybe maybe 10 federally recognized tribes in Utah but indigenous people are connected there's lots of different people that travel from here from Wyoming Idaho Colorado so we're not just one group or even just the predominant tribes so I we've also have an opportunity where people can join us as like allies so whether you're creative or something like that you can also look at our pledge that we've made so you can donate a percentage of proceeds uh I just want to see this as more of a community and partnership area and that's what I think it's about is that all of us have our own unique towns and gifts or medicine and so how do we use that going forward so I've done or tried my best to look at what we have on the table and think about what does it look like to repair and it takes all of these issues where it's from the environment all the way to our or all to say like you know for my background or how I can look at it is you know what does it look like to repair spiritually emotionally like physically and in my community and so these campaigns are my attempts to try to encompass what I see as is what we can do for our state but there is a lot to be done and maybe these issues don't look like they're related but I think that that healing itself isn't linear people need different types of support and sometimes that is creatively sometimes that's through ceremony and in lots of ways it's also very practical it's through a database it's through legislation and it's through story you know that collective public media presence that these stories have. Thank you, Mathews, thanks, thank you so much, Steve for sharing your generosity, really appreciate you being on. Yeah, yeah, my pleasure. [BLANK_AUDIO]