Obviously, this is not the truly true the day, but at the time, you know, as a black person from the South, like I was used to like race all the time, like, you know, microgressions, all these other types of things. And even at Duke, like, you know, there were not that to me black kids at Duke either. So I was just very used to being treated in a way that wasn't always great, right? In the UK, it was for the first time, I think, because there was so much diversity, and people just weren't stressed out about me being black. So it also just gave me this new idea that like, it could be better, right? Like, you know, like maybe racism, anti-black sentiment, like maybe like there is a hope out there, right? Because this country and the way I'm being treated, I just feel so drastically different than I've ever felt before. It just made me feel like I could do anything, right? You know, like the culture in my country, they are the thing that's trying to be back. So maybe I can decide that I'm not going to allow that to happen either. Hello, hello. Welcome to Young Gifts It Under Broad, perspectives on studying abroad from past and present students of color. My name is Danielle, and I'm so excited to be able to talk to you today because today I have my friend B as the guest. I do have a slight clarification to put out before I tell you about B. So I have purposely not talked too much on this podcast about the current global health crisis, current pandemic that's going on because, you know, we hear about it all the time every day. It's on everyone's minds. It's like everywhere you look. Oh, that's a theme song of it. First song go. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, sorry, focus. Yeah, and I just didn't want to add to that. But I will say that all of the regular episodes that you've heard so far of Young Gifts It Under Broad in 2020 and that you'll continue to hear through basically the end of the first half of this year. We recorded between mid-January and the first week of April. So if you have heard or going forward, if you do hear someone in an episode say something especially talking about travel plans that seems inconsistent with the current context of, you know, this mass effort of everybody staying home and not traveling as much or at all. That's why it seems out of place. So as I've said before, I'm going to continue putting these episodes out. These interviews, these stories because why not? And because that's what I'm here to do for you all. So as always, I hope that they can be a source of encouragement or joy or distraction or information or whatever it is that you are seeking at the time that you listen to these episodes. Yeah, I just wanted to say that to put that out there. Now about B. B is a really cool person and their own words B is a sub-inter through and through Bonerraise and Mississippi. Started their undergraduate career at Duke before transferring to North Western. While B was at Duke, they got this really cool opportunity to do a summer program at Oxford University in England and UK. So in episode 6, we heard from my cousin, Tukueh, about his time at the University of Oxford and then in episode 11. Got to hear from my friend Justin about his time at the University of Cambridge and now what is it? Episode 58. We get to hear from B about their own time at Oxford and at the time B was aiming to be a lawyer. So they studied international law during their time at Oxford. But just being in Oxford, being in England in general and being outside of the States for the first time, all of that was transformational in a way for B in terms of how they, uh, you know, broadening their view of the world, their own understanding of their own identity and also their own place in deciding in the world and what they wanted to do in their life going forward. All of those changes were really kicked off by going to Oxford. And you know, again, wanted to be a lawyer. I thought they wanted to be a lawyer at the time and now, cut to the present. B works in tech in Silicon Valley. So you get to hear all about how all those life changes and this really interesting life trajectory has unfolded for B so far. Yeah, I really enjoy talking to B. They have a great sense of humor and what really resonated with me also is how B talked about their mom, make she rest in peace. Because mom was so encouraging of B to go out in the world and explore and see things and be on traveling, you know, just trying new challenges and not shying away from things that might be challenging and uncomfortable but still really beneficial or impactful in the end. So a lot of the boldness that B is developed over time is due to their mom and for me as someone who's also very close to my mom that really spoke to me. So yeah, this is a nice one, really nice conversation. I hope you enjoy it. So without further ado, sit back, relax and enjoy my interview with my friend B. Pagels minor. Just FYI, my asthma is flaring up of it today. So if you hear me wheezing or whatever, it shouldn't be a big deal. But if I'm like pausing in between stuff, that's just me trying to catch my breath. So it's fine. What, or do you want to reschedule? I don't know what would be best for you. It's not like a serious thing. I was working out before this and I'm still wheezing a little bit. That's all. So basically your body is like, don't do good things to me. Basically. Yes. I just wanted to give you that precursor. But anyway, when we start with you introducing yourself of it, if you don't mind. Yeah, so I am B. Pagels minor. I currently live in Bay Area in California. I'm originally a southerner, grew and grew. So I collectively will say that I'm from Mississippi, but that's because they're like five minutes from each other. I'm just a deep southerner. All right. Wonderful. Well, I wanted to obviously here to talk about your time in Oxford, but I was wondering if you could tell me a bit about how you went from being a border raise in Mississippi and then going to Chicago and now in Silicon Valley. Like how did that trajectory unfold for you? Yeah. So it's actually really interesting. So I was very fortunate to have a mom who was very much like, you need to go out into the world and try stuff. Right. And so I kind of just had that mentality from when I was very, very young to just kind of, you know, an opportunity who presents itself to do something that I would not normally do or even that it would make me feel uncomfortable that I kind of have someone to see what. So that's first and foremost. And in terms of, so actually how this worked out, when I first graduated from high school, I ended up going to Duke University. And so Duke is really, really cool because like Duke had like all these different partnerships and they had a lot of different resources that they would provide to students to study abroad. And so I actually ended up, you know, applying to a program, who Duke, and being accepted into the Oxford New College program where I got to study International Law, right after freshman year of college. Oh, wow. So it was just really, really cool opportunity that honestly, it would not have been possible because, you know, I had that like the historic story of, you know, growing up in a single mother household. In fact, I found out that my mom never made more than $24,000 in her entire life. For real? She raised three kids on that. But I fundamentally do not understand how she was able to do it, but she was able to pull that off. And so I would not have been able to go to the program, had it not been for the fact they actually provided funding for that. And what's really cool about that program is it really just opened up a lot of doors for me. I think it really taught me that the world is much bigger than I'd ever imagined. And so actually one of the things that it also sparked was this idea that maybe Duke wasn't right college for me. I didn't transfer.
in North Blushroom and that's how I ended up in Chicago because I was just like wait, I am the classic poor black kid going to this really fancy college and I can't afford to do the same internships that my classmates were doing. The friends then said, "Have these really wealthy parents who would pay for them to have the department in New York so they could do an internship that was fancy and not get paid. I didn't have that option." The solution for me was move to a metropolitan area with really good school and then I could just work and actually meet a network with the people in power who were going to be able to give me opportunity. And so that really made a tremendous difference for me because then that allowed me to naturally get into tech. I didn't have to major in tech stuff. I was actually a history of political science major. So I was actually able to meet people who taught me what I needed to know so that I now, I work for some of the largest most impressive tech companies in the world doing tech stuff which I mean I honestly, if you'd asked me growing up if this is what I would be doing, I would told you that whatever you're smoking you should stop. Yeah. But look where you are now. I know life obviously was full of unexpected experiences and the like for you so I was like "That just caught me off guard." And could I see your mom? Oh my goodness, I don't know how she did that and more than one kid. Oh my goodness. That's amazing. Now I. Exactly. Yeah. I was just going to say like, so it's actually so funny because now when you're a kid you think your parents know they say no just to say no and I'm like no she really couldn't do it. That's why she said no. Wow. And it makes a tremendous difference. And I'm glad you made that point about the whole internship thing because that's something that's encouraged right but everybody can't afford to be working for free. Oh, you obviously made it made your own way and found a way to make it work for you so you could still get to where you wanted to be. Okay. So you were a history and political science major and then so you were setting international law at Oxford after your freshman year at Duke. Yes. Yes. So it was. What's really cool about this program or actually it was really cool about Oxford in general was it teaches you to learn very different things right because every in my class I didn't have multiple choice tests. Like everything I had was writing an argument or having an oral test where I would be presented with all the different concepts that we were studying and then I had to be able to pivot based on the questions that my professor would ask me and so what I love about that program that was that like for the first time in my life because you know a lot of people they tell you you're smart right but the reason you say you're smart is because you get A's and D's and these tests they give you but it's a very big difference to have a nimbleness to be able to you know pivot as people ask you different things right and so I really like I think foundationally my time in Oxford you know it just really helped me I think be a little bit more just have a little bit more critical thinking right and so that that and that change in me obviously has like really impacted everything I do especially when I think about my current career right I have to deal with concepts that you know especially because I'm working at these large tech companies that are building technology has never existed before so there's no roadmap we can't go and say like let's let's open up this book and there's going to be a very clear like ABCD how you do this is not at all so instead what we're trying to do is like think very large and then break up these large concepts into small pieces that can build iteratively to actually you know create this new thing and so you know and but that ability that skill all started with being at Oxford and having for the first time to be challenged in the way that I learned and I also just say you know coming from like the Mississippi to the sea area I mean even though I love my home state you know they're pretty low on the you know national education rankings and things like that obviously not because they're not great places but you know a lot of times what happens is that the most talented folks don't go to those areas right right right so you know I was so fortunate to have teachers who really invested in me but it still was not the same level of challenge right for me and so that that that really completely you know set me up for like kind of what I've been doing since then because I honestly think every single thing I've done since I went to Oxford actually off I often sell people that it fundamentally changed me it just fundamentally changed me I also think that you know it was really cool because it was the first time I'd ever so I they had come Bob trucks so there was like come Bob's and again being from the deep cell I'd never had a come on like they had stuff that was like what is this yeah I was like I'll say this is a goat I said we ain't go like why we got you to go right so like I'm like you know I feel like oh my gosh it's like this stuff tastes so crazy it's so delicious I mean it was the first time I'd heard so many different languages being spoken this also was during like the Bush carry elections and like also every time I would go into any bar like one of the brits would like pick will also really great being 19 and being able to really during not gonna lie about that that was really really nice and so every time I would go on so bar like one of the brits would be like hey I'm gonna buy you a drink but only if you're voting for the right guy it's also it also maybe realize I was like this like so in the United States a lot of times we just really don't care about what's going on in the rest of the world right and it's not because you know we're terrible humans it's just that we're trained to kind of be us first and then everyone else whereas you know going over to you know the UK like they are so concerned about a lot of stuff that's going on in the world and it really again it made me start thinking like maybe I should be checking out what's going on in other places and think about how all that stuff impacts you know my life yeah but again now we're looking at these very large companies are you having had that training or had that like awakening it allows me to think you know very strategically okay well we're gonna build this thing it's gonna be in 155 different country what do I need to think about for all those different countries mm-hmm yeah so it really like brought in your horizons and so many different aspects even as it concerns you know eating go and tank about first time it's nice though that's nice um okay so you this just in 2004 how long were you there so the program is the entire summer okay like three months mm alright and you mentioned that you you know where you are now is not where you thought that you would end up at all uh what were you aiming for when you were majoring in history and political science what was it that you wanted to do at that time yeah so I legitimately just wanted to be clear hawk stable oh yeah I was just like I'm gonna be clear I'm gonna like they'll be in a turning be awesome having family like that that was I was even actually I actually did go to law school I'm not actually eight the law but it was just really funny though because like my whole trajectory was do all this stuff so you can go be clear hawk stable mm-hmm and then I found out that Claire and I were I love her but I actually don't want to be here so I got my undergrad and then I got to MBA and I asked and so I was working in tech a little bit but not really doing what I do now and so I ended up going to law school because I was like okay well this is obviously not a good fit somebody in law school and while I was at law school I got this amazing job opportunity that was really really cool and I had this moment where I was just like well I'm doing this law school thing and it's fine you know I'm passing like whatever but this tech thing sounds like super super interesting and I think if I really you know put my mind to and focus on it I can be very successful at it and so that was really what made the difference for me I was like you know it's some fact that is like you probably shouldn't do something just because it's what you always plan if something else comes up that actually like you really sparks your soul oh wow yeah yeah that's really point me I'm I'm I'm taking that as a note for myself as I'm listening to you right now wow okay all right and so you were able to pivot and try something new okay and and so the the program that you chose that um you know while you were still at Duke the program that took you to Oxford did you choose that because that wasn't the line with the the feel that you were interested in working in at the time or were there like other options besides Oxford also there's two things one I just always so as a history major especially I was an American history major as I've always been very fascinated about the continued like the
The fact in the United States exists partially because of great Britain, right? Yeah, and so part of it was like when I was looking at different programs It's like I want to go to a program That that helps me learn more about that part of the world like part of our history as well So the UK was definitely like my number one choice and then again this particular program had international loss I was just like okay, I'm gonna go ahead and start getting that foundation So when I do apply to law school I'll have this under my belt and I'll increase the likelihood that I'll you know actually be a separate system program Yeah, okay All right, that makes sense and Just so I can like further understand you know what Where the place that you were enrolled at you mentioned it was new college is there a distinction between that and other Part of the university Yeah, so Oxford is basically The Biden and see like all of these individual colleges. So Oxford University is like Oxford University And then there's like the different campuses essentially and then each one might have different specialties And actually is really interesting and then also like even like Prince Harry Potter was filmed at different Parts of Oxford University I understand they actually Recorded the docking hall scenes at new college Great so like it's really interesting how it's all set up And they even actually have like each of the different colleges even have like their own like bars or their own traditions So there's actually a decent amount of competition between the different colleges Okay So I mean obviously chose this program because it was in line with your interest and and was like Kind of lined up perfectly with you know your major and and was gonna allow you to learn more of what what you are already interested in but what was this your first time leaving the country? Well, you said this wouldn't have been possible if you weren't If it wasn't like like to study a broad situation. So was this your first international trip? Yes, it was my first international trip Okay, ever Actually, what's oh I think so this is actually really kind of what there's because I was so bad at traveling I'd never so my family is a type of family Bedroll everywhere. So like I had even really been to airport or anything and so like the only even Duke like we drove my Marble drove me to Duke and then I would take the Greyhound bus back and forth to do from you know Some Memphis and so this was my first time And we may want to play in that big. It was my first time ever having to you know Like I had to take a flight from Memphis to like New York or something like that and then I went from New York to You know the UK I had never been to New York or anything like that either so it was like a lot of first for me But what's really ironic about it is I like sitting there trying to figure out this airport and how to get to the bus I could take the bus to my camp to the college and Someone stole my wallet So I genuinely I'm not even in the country for an hour and my stuff got stolen and so then I had to call collect to Like my aunt and my aunt like Western me and me some money which I found out that's like that's I was out of shape I like why do people use Western Union? I was like this is exactly like You can get money so fast and then actually yeah But also like so I had to follow police report and like the police officer was just like I feel so bad for you That you're like this little southern kid There's no idea what's going on It's a he actually went over to the bus driver and asked the bus driver just to take me for free So That's how I ended up getting there. I was just like thank God I was like if it had not been for you. I'm pretty sure I would have called up into like the beautiful decision and cry Oh Yeah, you just got there. Oh my goodness. Oh, that was really nice What a first day. Oh my goodness And so and also, you know, you aren't you know, it was a good looking out for you and everything I know you said your mom was Encourage you to to try new things and all that But what does she think about you going out of the country for the first time? Yes, actually really funny because like my mom so my mom had me when she was 21 hmm and she saw always tell me she's right before she had me She said that she was thinking about during the military because she boarded a travel right? It's like her big thing. She's like, you know, I don't think you know this college thing is working out like whatever Like I think I'm just gonna go join military and travel So she actually highly encouraging a sheet she's always telling me she like you need to go everywhere She's like, you know now that you know you you have the ability she's like I got these kids. I'm still raising these kids But you need to go out there. You need to explore as much as possible To kind of be brave in that way and kind of pursue things. Yeah And are you the oldest? I am the oldest and I said the idea. Oh, okay. Wow. Yeah, so I mean Did you feel like you were setting a like a precedent or an example for your siblings? Or did you not think of it that way was it more just a this individual thing that you were doing for yourself? So what you're really interesting is that like in my family down south Like so my dad said a family is like a little bit more like into You know what's taking it like that, but my mom's other family which is who I primarily grew up with I mean all like So some of my cousins will not leave like so for the sense I'll say I would say like you should come up to Chicago and visit and they would say things like But there might be a terrorist attack and I was like what? I'm talking about like I have no idea How is this the thought process that you have that something bad is gonna happen when you just go like Like because Chicago was like eight nine hour drive. Yeah, like that does not even make sense to like I definitely felt like It was important for me to do these things so that other people my family would see that this is not that big of a deal I mean, was it kind of like a big city equals violence and maybe terrorism like is that what the thought process might have been for them? I think so, you know, it's really interesting Like I said because you know a lot of my mom's out of family They primarily kind of stayed in the same areas and things like that and I think it really does come down to this idea that like For them they only see bad things that happen This is the reality is first of all we know that bad things can happen anywhere like I mean we we hear crazy stories And we're just like that happened where right? So for me, you know I feel very differently. I'm like well if something bad that happens I should probably go ahead and go and balls in the walls possible now. So I won't have any regrets if that bad thing happens Wow, that's that's a Dynamic attitude to have about it, you know like well at least I won't have any regrets, you know that's That's really Yeah, that's really inspiring now that I hear you say that um Okay, so and so when you want to to Oxford were there any other people from your university that we're going at the same time or like any other Americans you came across in your classes or were you like did you not know anyone period when you went there? So there was like a cohort so so it was like an application process a lot of people applied Is it like a set for people? I can't remember exactly what the number is but I think it was like less than 20 of us I mean so we all went from the university and we all had we were all studying different things like so friends So it wasn't you know even though we came from the same place we weren't necessarily studying the same subject matter So from that perspective was really cool because we actually had like a person who helped like organize events for all of us like you know We want to go see You know Shakespeare we want to go see you know Different such a sports house. We want to go see plays things like that So it was really nice because at least you know you didn't have that like weird like I am the only foreigner here situation That was very nice. Yeah Okay, and were you able to make any really close connections like any like Solid friendships that formed during that time anything like that You know I would say not necessarily and again that goes back to that idea that like since we were all in different program Oh, that's right. We only really saw each other we only really saw each other like mil times or for the the plant activities So it was just kind of like more like you had like these travel buddies who were available should you need it? We also did not necessarily ever have to see them Other than that period time. Yeah, that's it. That's it. Okay. So you know I take it you were in class like During the weekdays What types of things did you do outside of class? I mean you mentioned the excursions you went on but Uh, aside from that, you know what types of things did you do outside of your studies? So I would like to be mature and say like I explored and it whatever So you have a whole bunch of like 18 19 20 year olds. We were just drinking. Yeah hanging out and eating because again Like most of us most of us even the folks who were from bigger cities. They were like oh this is even different than what we are used to Right, so they like you know we would love to go into town and like eat but like you think of her food You know go to different bars and some like that and actually a lot of the folks who worked at the school became you know some of my favorite people hanging out with because I'd say you know where you're going tonight And I go hang out with them and actually go and like you know Try to find like princess. I had a pims cut for the first time and now I mean to this day. It's like one of my favorite dreams You know Um, and it was all because like we would just go into town and just really kind of see what was going on Yeah, I mean that's a that's a a way of exploring kind of you know getting to know.
know the area and you know having good times with the people that you meet you know so that's something that's exploring in a different type of way yeah I was doing cultural anthropology that's one of my college that works yes that works so this was after your freshman year and you were setting international law you mentioned the the challenge of having to like kind of step up your critical thinking skills and respond to the the situation as it as it develops but I guess with the just the subject matter and everything I mean was that a big leap or a big challenge after having only just finished your freshman year? you know I would say yes and no and so the another one thing is that like before I used to be able to be yes a lot of things right like you know you we kind of just go and say oh I'm kind of doing this thing and this is why like some friends is like when I think about a lot of my freshman classes I can still kind of be as my way through a test or like an asset and so it was like my first as saying that I wrote I remember did not go very well but again they don't they don't they don't necessarily do the ABC like it's really more like they're trying to check through critical thinking and they kind of kind of first correct you if you're not potentially going in the right path and so all of a sudden I actually had to go back to the drawing board and she rethink about how I studied and prepared for that right so from that perspective I had to do some growing up for sure yeah and do you feel like you got a grasp on you were studying American history and you wanted to learn more about I guess this part of the world because it you know because it has so much to do with America existing do you feel like you you got that that knowledge that you were seeking so I think what I really got was I was trying to figure out what makes Britain I guess is what I really came down to and I definitely got the the idea of like how that culture could inspire what we are now for sure but I honestly think it is really what I ended up doing it I ended up just being fascinated with the country with the way they thought about things like I said you know even from the political perspective I was just like all these people are having thorough conversations with me about something I would never really care about if I were back home right and so it's really more about me is being like so impressed with the folks in the country in like trying to figure out like how can I possibly be like this and also the other thing that I think was very interesting obviously this is not something this is not really true the day but at the time you know as a black person from the South like I was used to like race all the time like you know microgressions all these other types of things and even at Duke like you know there were not that for me black kids at Duke either so I was just very used to being treated in a way that wasn't always great right and in the UK it's for the first time I think because there was so much diversity and people just weren't stressed out about me being black so it also just gave me this new like it gave me this new idea that like it could be better right like you know you like maybe racism anti-black sentiment like maybe like there is a hope out there right because this country and the way I'm being treated I just feel so drastically different than I've ever felt before like when I walk on the street I know that I'm probably not being judged based on my skin color you know so it was a really really really great experience for me because I think it also it has made me feel like I could do anything right you know like like I don't have to like the culture in my country they are the things trying to be back but maybe I can decide that I'm not gonna allow that to happen anymore and so do you feel like when you came back that you put that into the action right away in terms of not letting things hold you back or believing that different things better things are possible oh hundred percent I mean that's one of the reasons I think I was you know it was so clear to me that like I need it like I could dictate things a little bit more yeah I didn't have to really worry like that the game could be changed right like I didn't have to necessarily be inhibited by you know a lot of these systems in a place and I think that's definitely translated right oh also I should I should also clarify that at the time of this happening I actually didn't identify yet as being a lesbian so I I was not a part of the LGBTQ community or anything like that because I went through all of my youth I went to high school I went to my first year of college and I was just like well I'm probably saying it may or two do it anyway doing to Oxford I was like wait I'm pretty sure I'm gay too I was like it was like a lot of stuff like I was hanging around like all these diverse people and we're having all these really cool conversations and actually came out like I came out my my Paul semester of my sophomore year to my mom I'm gay and how did you take that my mom was like I've been I've been on that like 17 years ago and I was like mom why do you tell me it's just like well I just kind of figured out at some point wow wow I hear that so many times when I hear about people's coming out stories where they their parents like already knew and they were just waiting for you know the kid to express it themselves wow yeah so so that was like a lot of like of introspection and change for you based on that time that you spent in in the UK and you said that you know people weren't tripping about you being black I am curious though if there were many black people around you like fellow students or people who lived in the area that you came across yeah so it's what really cool so in my actual the group that went I yeah I'm pretty positive I was gonna be black person who went in the group it was really cool is there there was a lot of students there right because obviously it's also there's people that didn't all around and actually met a ton of like actually like African folks and also black American folks so actually ended up hanging out and actually discovering this like very vibrant community that was there and I'm spending a lot of time with them well that's nice that's nice was that something that you were hoping to find when you went there were you prepared to kind of just be one of you while you were while you were in England yeah I definitely did not expect to find such a cool community you know I just expected to go and hopefully you know get value you know and so I was just very I was so excited that you know I was able to meet these folks and also because of the nature of Oxford there's a lot of like a lot of those folks are grad students so I could also again kind of start seeing I was seeing a living representations of what I could be you know so those are really really cool opportunity for me to be around just like super talented black people who like just seem to have like the whole sense of who they were and like what they would do and they were all studying these like crazy things they were so smart and I was like I really want to be like you when I grow up so I'm just gonna like climb on to you yeah all your information right have you been able to keep in touch with any any of the people that you met during that time you know so this is this is the sad part is that a couple different one so this is in 2004 so this is at the time Facebook was still called the Facebook right and then it's still going to serve like a few colleges right so actually was really interesting and then I I didn't have a cell phone like I know that it's shocking but like you know at the time cell phone to really expensive so I didn't have one and so like for a time like we kind of emailed back and forth but like over time it's just it was much more difficult I think at that time to actually stay connected because you have to do so much effort yeah and all of us were in like these crazy programs crazy colleges you know we're all very ambitious the we kind of kind of fellow part you know versus you know kind of staying connected yeah okay I mean that makes sense especially given the the time period yeah I'm just thinking about I met this I've made a friend at camp one year when I was in middle school and we were like pen pals like literal pen pals until like like 2010 or something so that's like how we had to communicate with either email or actual letters so yeah no that totally makes makes sense given the the options that you all had at your disposal actually remember you because you were like oh do you have any photos I was like I'm pretty sure I had a digital camera oh no yeah I'm pretty sure I'm a digital camera I'm pretty sure there might be photos but they're probably in a box heck up in a storage unit somewhere you know and it just like do my mind because when I started looking at my phone I was like what is the first picture of my phone the first picture of my phone is from 2009 and I was just like there's like this whole lifetime that I started thinking about like based on me preparing for this and I just like there's like a whole lifetime of events that they aren't documented like what do we do before like social media and file it away in our minds I guess or do what is it called the like the disposable cameras you do
You just have packets upon packets of photos that show away different places. Yeah, that's amazing how all that has changed and not that much time. Did you find a way to keep in touch with your family at all while you were away? - Yes, my mom and I had a schedule. So it was like every two weeks we would have a phone call. 'Cause it was definitely in the budget. 'Cause my mom was like, "So we're gonna talk for exactly this amount of time." (laughing) Just like call their expensive. I was like, "You, that's me." - Yeah. - My mom, my mom was my best friend. So of course, I was like, "There's no way I'm gonna survive this about talking to you." - Oh, no, I totally, I totally get that. When I was in college, I called my mom every day. And I think whenever I was outside of the country, we would like email at least once a week or do something similar. So my point is I usually can't go that long without talking to my mom either. So I totally get what you're coming from. (laughing) And I'm curious about, in terms of you just living in the UK and having that experience, was there anything that really struck you about, just day-to-day life in the UK? - There's a couple of things. One, obviously the pound was like very strange. I was like, "Okay, so there's coins and paper money." And I would have all these coins in my pocket that would be like $50 worth of stuff. That would be in my pocket and I honestly, I was like, "I like eating my pants up. How do you guys deal with this?" (laughing) - Okay, because it's so heavy. - So glad. - And also, honestly, it was very expensive 'cause back then, especially the pound was like double US dollars. - So, and I did not know about that type of stuff. Right, so I was just like, I was like, "Oh, wait, so this thing is two pounds, right?" Which is $4. And that's like significantly more in the US. So I had to really be strategic about what I could and could not do in that perspective. - And then, you know, like some friends said, "Oh, another really interesting thing coming from the South." Like, they didn't really drive. There wasn't a whole bunch of people driving. People were riding their bikes, you know, things like that. I also thought it sounded very interesting, like drinking and driving. Like, now it's a me seems like a very American problem. And so it was like so interesting to me that I would go out with some of the folks to work at the university. And they would be like, "Yeah, we're not gonna drive." They're like, "We're just gonna walk over because it's not safe to drink and die." And I was like, "Y'all are so practical." (laughing) It was just like really interesting to me to just some of the basic things into kind of like that are very American things to do. Like, they definitely weren't into it over there. So I definitely thought about that. But like I said, the biggest difference though just you general was, I had never seen so many different people from different countries, different languages. So it was also just like this idea, like, you know, a lot of times we think about the United States as a melting pot, but it's also kind of like only some parts of the United States aren't actually a melting pot, right? You know, like when you are in very like homogenous areas, like I had grown up and I, it didn't even occur to me that all those different people could be in the same place. - Right. - And so that was like a really big deal. It's like I was just like, "Oh, my mindset was so much more narrow "before I went here and now I'm over here again eating goat." (laughing) And it's delicious. (laughing) You know, so I was just like, this is different. This is very, very different. - Yeah. Was there anything else that you remember eating there that was unique or especially delicious to you? - So like I had land for the first time too. So like, you know, because like the, on the chips that you would get, you had like different stuff on there. So there was like land, which is really good. I had to see pieces of the first time I was there. I had duck for the first time, which I don't like duck. It's just sweet. And they tried to prepare it a couple different ways and I was like, "Y'all, this is not, it's not over yet." I was like, "Look at it off." I'm also like, like, you know, of course, like their breakfast is like very different to you. And also it's like way too much food. - Yeah. - So there's a lot of just like really random stuff that again, it was like very stanchored pair. But even like we went to like McDonald's and the McDonald's had a completely different many than the McDonald's in the United States. - Yeah. - Right. So it was just like this really crazy thing. I was just like, "Whoa." I was like, "All this stuff is strange, but delicious." Except for the duck. - Except for the duck. (laughing) And I'm sure you had your hands full with your, with your studies and just, you know, hanging out with the people around you. But did you go anywhere outside of the UK during that summer? - Not really. Some folks would actually go pretty consistently to like Spain and some other places. But again, I was a poor kid. So I was like, "Well, I'm gonna take in your stories and then file it away and I'm gonna go to that place later." - Later. - Yeah. - Yeah. I mean, of course, and it's over a summer, I feel like there's only so much of a grass if you can get a one country over that period of time. So I mean, that's plenty enough as it is. (laughing) But I was just wondering, 'cause, you know, some people country hop while they're over there. So. - Oh yeah. Well, so funny is that like now when I think about trips that we say, "Gorah," it's just like, well, if we're here, we could probably just go over here and use other places, other places. But yeah, I totally, like, I think that, you know, it's definitely how I think about traveling now. But the time, it honestly, it just seemed, it seemed so crazy that we were even somewhere besides my country. - Yeah. - That I was just like, "Well, I'm good." (laughing) - That's good. And like you said, you could go later, you can always go later. (laughing) That wasn't like the beginning and the end for you. So, I mean, have you been to other, like, international destinations over the years since you went to the UK during that summer? - Yeah, actually, so my wife and I, we actually got married in the Santerranean Greece. - Oh, wow. - And it was like, it was a big deal for us. And I tell my wife, I was like, fundamentally, I do not want to get married in a, well, it's time we were living in Chicago. So I was like, "One, I don't want to get married in Chicago because you're a dickless expensive." So secondly, I come from a huge family. Like, it's like my family is super, super huge. So I was just like, how would we even afford a wedding if we had to invite all of my cousins? 'Cause they were carabins. They were drag their cars. - So they were like, "That's a lot of money." - So that was like, that's a lot of money. But it seemed like it's probably a lot of people for us to have a destination wedding. So we got married in Santerranean. It was like, probably one of the most amazing experiences in my life. - Yeah, we've also been like, Mexico, the DR, actually next month, we're doing Sutokia. - Ooh, that means. - So we definitely are into traveling. - Yeah, that's fantastic. I hope you enjoy Tokyo. And just so I'm clear, 'cause I was really confused for a second. It was cheaper for you to get married in Greece than in Chicago. - Yeah, it's like, so my wife, like, she now heads up the marketing team for a startup in the Bay Area. But my wife used to be a wedding photographer. And so like, when we sat down and started talking about our wedding and wedding to take your wedding, it was like, we were coming up with like, 50, 60 grand for like a very basic Chicago. - Oh my goodness. And I was just like, it does not make sense that we could buy, like, we could literally buy a house in Mississippi where our friends at that price, right? So like, that doesn't make sense. And so we were able to actually, like, a lot of the, especially in Greece, they're really good at that. Like, like, they, like, people go there for weddings at the time. So we legitimately just reached out to a few different locales. And so we actually went in an entire villa. So we had this entire villa more than we can. We got married. And all of our, you know, the folks who, all of our vendors stayed in the villa with us so we could actually pull off the wedding. But the wedding was legitimately like a fifth of the cost. - Oh my goodness. I mean, that's great for you. That's amazing. I just seem thinking about how ridiculously expensive stuff like that is. (laughs) You went to a whole other country and it was way cheaper than just getting married. Where you live, you know? - And also, I definitely really ran them aside. From a cultural perspective, weddings are more important in Greece and I think in some ways than the United States was about weddings. So also, they like went above and beyond. They were like, they would contact me, upset me like, we think we can't get that thing. We had talked about it like we're so sorry. Like, you know, we're gonna do something else. And I was like, honestly, you're the one who suggested that thing. I just said, you know what I'm saying? So like, it was just really cool, like, how dedicated they were to make you sure that we had like, this wonderful experience. - Yeah. Wow, well, that's wonderful. I don't wanna get stuck too long on your wedding. I'm just curious though. I mean, did people come or was it just you two at your wedding in Greece? - So it was the two of us and then like 30, like 30, 31 people. So, you know, we actually, it was a decent size wedding, but honestly, and nothing against anyone else or family. Like pretty much every one of the most important people that we needed to have at our wedding was it. Right, so like, you know, the best friends, the mom, like the people that you like, you will generally would be like, I wouldn't be devastated if they weren't there. They were all there. - Okay, for me, I feel like it was a good act that we were looking for. - Okay, well that works, that works then. And you have those amazing memories and all that extra money that you didn't have to spend. In short, like,
It's perfect. Okay. Well, so getting back to Oxford, I was wondering if you had any financial assistance and being able to go like scholarships or any type of fundraising you were able to do, like how are you able to afford this experience? So that's one of the cool things about Oxford Trip is that they took care of everything. Oh wow. So there was a program that Duke had, so that's why you had to apply. And so like they paid for the program, they paid for my flight. I even had like a little bit extra leftover that would have been my spending money for that period of time. And you know, obviously I also worked, like I worked through college. So I also tried to save up as much money as possible and some of my friends and family gave me cash too. But like that was why this program was so phenomenal. And actually this is something that, you know, as I kind of continue to be more successful in my life, I would love to figure out how to do similar things. And so I think that, especially for young, black and brown folks and diverse folks, it's so important for us to have this opportunity to go out and see the world and see how different the world can be. But again, these programs don't exist everywhere. So like how can we kind of create this opportunity for more people to have these experiences? Yeah. Oh my goodness. I'm right there with you. That's the whole reason why I started this podcast because I was just like, this is awesome. But this got to be more of us doing this type of thing, you know? So yeah, I'm totally on the same page with you regarding that. Do you have any advice for people who want to study abroad or who just want to travel more in general? Any advice off the top of your head that you'd like to give? Well, first you plan us, don't be afraid. I mean, obviously there's like a lot of, like, it's really cool is there's a lot of Facebook groups. There's a lot of influencers who talk about traveling now. So like I also highly heard people to start following that type of information, enjoying those groups and start like kind of demystifying it, right? Because, you know, traveling really, you know, all these other countries, all these other places, you know, they thrive on tourists, just like the United States thrives on people who go to Disneyland and Disney World and all that stuff, right? So they love having, many of those countries love having people in conflict there. So that's personal corners. And then secondly, even if it's hard, like, it's a difference, it's a bit like a physical issue or something like that, like try to hustle it out and figure out how you can do it as cheap as possible, but still try to do it, right? So even, I remember when my wife went to first met, I was like, we're going to go to Mexico and I barely had enough money for that. And I was like, let me go do this Google search, right? Figure out how I can find the one all-inclusive resort that I wouldn't have as much expenses and most of the things were covered, right? So it's always like a little bit of a strategy in different ways, you can kind of search out opportunities to get that opportunity instead of brought. Okay. Great. And sorry, I don't mean to harp on your wedding again, but I was just thinking because you mentioned your mom was there and that how she wanted to travel when she was younger and then you know, had kids and whatnot. I mean, was that her first, you know, international trip or I mean, how did she feel getting to go to Greece? Actually, to clarify, it was a list of my wife's mom was there. My mom actually passed away in 2012. So actually, that's one of the things, oh, it's just no problem. And that's actually one of the things that's one of the reasons I say, just go for it, right? Because one of the threats that I always will have is that, you know, we kept saying, you know, we're just going to wait a little bit more and so we have a little bit more money, we can do a little bit bigger, but she passed away before we could take those trips, right? And so that's why I'm so important again to just go hard sooner so you don't have those regrets. Yeah. For sure. For sure. I apologize. I didn't mean to go. Well, it's a problem. Wow. I didn't realize your mom was no longer living. I'm sorry. I'm glad that you have been able to go out there and see places, you know, and obviously that hasn't ended yet because you're going to Japan soon. Is there anywhere else that you have a mind that you'd like to go at some point? Well, actually, it's so funny because, like, being in Chicago and around at Holdburns with my friends, I've been friends with for forever. So last night, we were actually just talking about we wanted to do something in Europe, so we were looking at potentially hungry, like some of them, not necessarily, like, because Paris eventually will get the Paris or, you know, Rome or all these places. But we're really looking for those image queen places that people tell you, like, they have these phenomenal experiences. Like, for instance, the Netherlands is another place that, like, is it high on our list probably the next two years? We also, like, my wife and I specifically, so I promised my wife when we first met that eventually I was going to get her to one of those countries that has the rooms that are on the water, like the overwater, like, bongalos. And so our number one goal probably the next two years is probably the mildives, like, we really want to go there. So that's something that we're kind of looking at probably for, like, 2022-ish probably. Okay. So there's a lot of different things. Like, we really want to explore Asia, I think, in a very real way. And then, you know, potentially also, sophomore as well. So we, we're planning out probably, I wouldn't say quarterly, but, like, at least two of the trips a year to really do some really cool stuff. Yeah. Yeah, that sounds awesome. I hope you do get to go all those places and explore and have just amazing experiences together. That sounds like that would be fantastic. And we decided to go back to the UK where it started for you, kind of go full circle. So what's so funny is, I keep trying to, like, my wife says, because I'm like, I'm always like, "Hey, I want to take you to the UK. It's so great. I love it so much." And she's always just like, she's like, "So my wife is in white." She's like, "But I already seen white people." [laughter] So until she decides she's got a hard fill in everybody else, I guess we won't be bored then. Okay. All right. That's funny. Well, it's funny. Okay. Well, it looks like you've got plenty of other options and plenty of other plans to go amazing places in the meantime. So, you know, I'm sure that you can wait. All right, then. Well, my last question then is, where can people reach you or keep up with what you're doing online if you'd like them to do so? Yeah. So everywhere in the world, you can find me at B PayrollsMiner, the D-P-A-G-E-L-S-M-I-N-O-R. It's like my Twitter handle, my Facebook, Instagram, my website. So you can find me there. I love chatting with people, so definitely feel free to connect with me, reach out if you have questions, all that good stuff. Okay. Great. Great. So thank you again for your time. Today, I really appreciate it. I'm feeling like I can breathe a little better now. Thanks to talking to you. So, I don't have to worry about that anymore. And yeah, I really enjoyed this. I hope you enjoyed it as well. You know, this is great. Yeah. Okay. Well, thanks again. I'll let you go so you can have a wonderful weekend and everything. And I'll be in touch. Okay? Great. Alright, great. So I'm just, I'm sorry. I said bye-bye. Bye. (laughs) (upbeat music) Alright, y'all. There it is. Thanks to B PayrollsMiner. Alright, y'all. There it is. Thanks to B for being such a wonderful guest. And I hope you like how this all turned out. For the rest of you listening, don't forget to follow this podcast. @YoungGiftedAndAbrod on Instagram and Facebook and @YGAbrod on Twitter. And don't forget to check out Gist Profiles and Resource Lists on YoungGiftedAndAbrod.com. So if you enjoyed what you've been hearing so far, then please continue listening to this podcast wherever podcasts are. And you are welcome to leave a five star review on Apple Podcasts and Stitcher while you're at it. And as always, if you have questions or comments to share, or if you're yourself would like to be a guest on the show, then feel free to email me at
[email protected]. So for the next episode in two weeks, it's gonna be met. Oh my gosh, it's gonna be May already. Wow. And I don't know why I'm in such a singing mood today, but it is what it is. So for the next episode in two weeks, I'm gonna do something a little different, I guess. The guest is going to be someone who is American, but spent much of their childhood living growing up, going to school in Germany, Turkey, and Holland, and then after that moved back and had to adjust to American life and culture. So
You can look forward to hearing more about that in two weeks. But until then, thank you so much for listening and talk to you next time. [Music]
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