Ep 58 - Inner Working Models - Where do they come from?

(upbeat music) - Welcome to "Regulated and Relational", the bi-monthly podcast produced by the Attachment and Trauma Network. What is our internal working model? If you don't know or aren't sure, then you're going to learn something from Ginger and Julie's discussion today. I'm ready. Are you? Let's join them. - Hi, everyone. Welcome back to "Regulated and Relational", our podcast produced by the Attachment and Trauma Network. I'm Ginger Healy, and I'm Julie Beam. We're excited to share with you from both our personal experiences and our professional knowledge, what it truly means to be attachment-focused, trauma-informed, and how we can help children impacted by early childhood trauma. We talked about attachment very early in our podcast in season one, it's so three in fact, because it's the cornerstone of how we view things here at the attachment and trauma network. In that we truly believe that attachment is the antidote to the impacts of chronic traumatic stress, but we want to revisit it today and do a deeper dive. Julie and I have been speaking more and more at conferences these days about attachment in order to help educators and others understand what it is. And we're finding that people don't always grasp the importance that a healthy attachment or not so healthy attachment have in our daily lives. So we thought this episode would help both caregivers and teachers in understanding how attachment creates a person's inner working model and how that model determines so much of the way we react to the world, especially to the people in our world. Our inner working models are the blueprint for how we connect. So I want to start off with a quote from John Bulby, all of us from cradle to grave were happiest when life is organized as a series of excursions, long or short, from the secure base provided by our attachment figures. - That's such a great quote, Ginger, for those of us who are speaking attachment language, it's a good place to start our conversation by talking about what a secure base is because Bulby is right, we truly are happiest when our lives are organized around excursions to and from our secure base. But it doesn't make a whole lot of sense if we don't know the language of attachment theory. So let's talk about that a little bit about what we're talking about here. Here goes, infants have a lot of needs that they can't meet themselves. They get hungry, wet, tired, have pain, get bored, become afraid or anxious, and they only have one thing they can do about that need. Ask for help from their caregiver. And in attachment language, we're talking about their primary caregiver. For the sake of understanding attachment theory today, we're gonna talk about that primary caregiver as being the original caregiver, the person who gave birth to them that they've already spent nine months in utero with. We know that that isn't always the way things go. We have a lot of folks in our audience who are adoptive parents and foster parents and grandparents raising kids. And you are now the primary caregiver of a child that you may not have given birth to. And so we acknowledge all of that, but right now language wise, when we talk about primary caregiver, we're gonna also think about that first initial caregiver too. We wanna point out that what we're talking about is things that happen in the womb. So this is before birth. And so that primary caretaker in our language has to be birth mother for us to clarify what we're speaking about. And while we're not gonna talk deeply about the impact of what happens in utero attachment theory, definitely acknowledges that that relationship is started prior to birth. The things that an infant's brain are taking in in utero have impact. They matter. - Yeah, everything that crosses the placental barrier impacts that child for better or worse. It is what it is. And I know there are a lot of implications socially, emotionally, even politically about all of that. We're not gonna go there today, but it is what it is. Back to infants, to born infants, we all know how those infants express their need by crying. The primary caregivers usually pick up pretty quickly on what those cries mean. So the baby's cries, they cry different when they're hungry than when they're sleepy, when they're bored, then when they're scared, or when they're just wanting some interaction and over a period of just a very few weeks, this mom, this primary caregiver, starts to pick up on those cues and they start to do this dance with the baby of understanding kind of what they need and then responding accordingly. So in other words, when they hear the hungry cry, they're gonna go ahead and heat up the bottle or breastfeed or whatever they're gonna do versus get the diapers out because they're starting to be able to figure out what happens there. Meanwhile, while you're doing this, anybody who's had an infant knows that while that bottle's heating or while whatever's happening that we'll satisfy that need, you're doing something else with that baby. You're picking them up and often you are doing other things to suit them like rocking and bouncing and swaying and music and singing, sometimes pacifiers, sometimes swaddling. There's a variety of things that you're doing that give us real clues into what helps all humans feel safe. I mean, like the walking and the bouncing and the singing and the swaddling and all of those things are good indicators of things we can do even through adulthood to self-soothe. And over the first few months of an infant's life, these soothing interactions happen over and over and over again. They probably happen at least 50 times a day for infants, right? The infant expresses the need, the caregiver meets the need by first soothing, you know, some kind of soothing action, soothing tones, soothing, you know, physical movement and then figuring out what the actual need is and meeting it. So the baby's brain that's developing at a rapid rate at that point is taking in this information of eye cry and my needs are met. Early on, they don't even go eye cry and somebody comes to meet my needs because they're not even sure where they end and where the primary caregiver begins. They're not differentiating, but this is another human being. They're just like, I have a need, I express the need and it gets met. And that's what their brain is told over and over again. And because it's told that, it wires the baby's brain into a basic belief that when I cry, something happens. And even further, when I cry, my needs are met. And so what happens at a really basic brain level and we're not talking thinking cortex brain, we're talking about lower than that in the brain development is that a basic belief emerges in that baby's brain, that the world is a safe place. So in other words, when I have a need, it's going to be met. And I have a voice in the world and I matter. When I ask for help, I get it. I'm worthy of getting it. So those two core beliefs, they're not thoughts like we would have in our thinking brain, their core beliefs become this child's inner working model. And what I just described was a healthy inner working model. So this is a healthy attachment cycle happening over and over again, building this healthy inner working model. And we all know what this looks like in people around us. If we don't have it ourselves, we've seen people who just seem to be confident in most situations. They get scared, they get anxious, they have all the same emotions that everybody else have, but they just sort of believe in themselves and believe that they have an impact on the world. And that's at the core of who they are. So we all got our inner working models based on the things that happened to us at this very early age, long before we had the ability to talk before that we have any active memories. We don't remember getting our working model. That's not possible. We might remember some things that happened to us in our toddler years that either reinforced that working model or didn't, but we don't specifically remember, oh, now I got this healthier and healthy inner working model. It is why inner working models feel like it's just the way I am type beliefs. So if you have a belief about yourself that you do certain things repeatedly or you feel certain ways about yourself repeatedly and you're just, well, this is just the way I am for the good or the bad. That's probably part of your inner working monol. it's a belief that's so deep that you rarely question how you got it, why it is this way, or if it could be changed, right? It's that deep. And the only time that you probably would explore that is if you have come to grips with the fact that maybe you have a less than ideal interworking model, there's a problem there, right? And then you would probably think, oh, you know, what changes do I need to make about that? So let's go back to the idea of a secure base because that was part of Bulby's quote there. As a baby continues to grow, they start to realize that they are not one and the same with their primary caregiver, that they're actually two different people. And I don't know because I'm not a child development professional when that happens, I think it's maybe three to six-month-ish age that they are starting to realize that their mom and dad are separate creatures from them, which is a strange concept to us, but it's true, right? And they recognize that they need this primary caregiver in order to survive because here is this caregiver who helps me when I'm hungry and I'm tired and I'm scared and all of those things, but whenever I have a need. And it's important infants recognize this and that they will do anything to keep the relationship going, even in situations where the relationships are poor, the relationships are scary or dangerous and we're now talking about, you know, potential abuse or neglect, they not only want that relationship, they need it because it's a survival thing. Yeah, survival. So when a child is getting good enough parenting, which is another piece of language from attachment theory and we've talked about that on this podcast before, it doesn't have to be 100% right. You all know that it's more like about 30% right and we can all do that because we're all striving for that. When they get this good enough parenting, their primary caregiver becomes a secure base, someone that they can depend on for safety because most of the time that's what is being provided, their safety needs are always being met. I'm safe from hunger, I'm safe from being too cold or hot or in a dangerous situation. So it gives this growing infant and definitely as they move towards being a toddler, more of an ability to start exploring the world and then checking back in with their secure base. And that back and forth of knowing I have a secure base that I can then safely explore and come back to if I'm feeling overwhelmed is a huge important developmental step for children and it's something that is really needed as they continue to maintain their healthy interworking model and grow into emotional health. The researchers from Circle of Security explain this whole concept really very clearly. And I don't know if we have talked directly about Circle of Security before on this podcast, but we probably should at this point. Yeah, I agree. It's so critical. It's an important attachment focused parenting program. It was created by Kent Hoffman, Glenn Cooper and Bert Powell. Their book, Raising a Secure Child, is an incredible resource for understanding what we're talking about here. In fact, it's subtitled How Circle of Security Parenting can help you nurture your child's attachment, emotional resilience, and freedom to explore. So yeah, we highly recommend this book. They use this Circle model where you, the primary caregiver, are the secure base from which all exploration can be launched. And the safe haven when the child is distressed needs to come to you for comfort or protection. It's a beautiful model for describing how to attune to what a child needs and provide both the nurturing and comfort when it's needed and supporting the child's exploration and also just delighting in them as they learn in the world and work towards more independence. There's just so much richness in Circle of Security Parenting. They talk about the importance of the repair, the concept of good enough parenting and just so many other attachment theory-based concepts. You know, I wish we could get into all of it. But for this conversation today, I just think it's important to note that there are things that get in the way of our children navigating that Circle of Security. And they refer to those things as shark music. So shark music comes from us and our own personal inner working model and what we learned in our own early childhood. The shark music usually gets triggered when our child needs something from us somewhere along the circle and the messages in our head get in the way of that. It's like the music you know that comes from Jaws. Yeah love that. It's an immediate like we've all heard it and my heart starts beating the second I hear it so it's a great analogy. Just hearing that music evokes danger even if there's nothing on the water surface you know literally figuratively, metaphorically. So what we're talking about here is that no one else may be feeling or seeing the danger but we are feeling uncomfortable inside and if we're not careful we will act on those messages instead of remaining open and present and available to what our child needs. Exactly so quick example from my own early parenting. I had shark music and I'm I still do have the same shark music that plays in my head but now that I'm not parenting little children it doesn't happen nearly as often but when I was out in public with my small children especially when I was going into situations like doctors appointments or places where they were going to have to sit and wait where we were all going to have to sit and wait. We all know that little children have a hard time sitting and waiting that's not a concept that they have but my shark music told me that that was a problem. That my expectation was that they would sit there and be quiet and just wait. That had to do more with my own inner working model, my own early beginnings, my own what happened to me as a child but that shark music would turn on the minute we get in the parking lot headed towards the waiting room right. I'd be thinking oh man these kids are not going to sit there and so I would instead of being open and flexible and be thinking about fun ways to engage with them and therefore keep them entertained and quiet I would start to get frustrated before it even started right and I knew that they weren't going to sit still and so I'd become very tourists and frustrated and might snap at them or do things that didn't make it better or actually made it worse right. The shark music concept is really about recognizing that right that these are automatic expectations that start playing in our heads you know about what other people are going to think about us or about the way things are supposed to be or you shouldn't behave that way or all of those messages that are coming out that have roots and either what we grew up with or what we believe about ourselves and have really not a whole lot to do with what our kids are actually doing and if we can recognize the shark music that's a huge one and if we can then start exploring why we have that shark music we can probably turn its volume down on our lives and and our reactions to things. I want to talk about Dr. Lewis Couselino he is a clinical psychologist in California and his work falls into the interpersonal neurobiology movement he's well known for his books that link attachment theory to education I just love everything he has done I think it just goes perfectly with what we're talking about today because he tells us that brains link together we are social creatures and our biologies are interwoven each brain is dependent on the scaffolding of caretakers and loved ones for survival growth and well-being there are no single brains each brain adapts according to other brains that it is surrounded by the good news of this is that if unexpected challenges emerge our brain has a greater chance to adapt and survive so when good enough parenting combines with good enough genetic programming our brains are shaped in ways that in a fitness throughout our entire life but the not so good news about that is that we are just as capable of adapting to unhealthy environments and pathological caretakers so that will result in adaptations that may help us survive that trauma but then moving on as we grow up it can impede our healthy development later so those early negative interpersonal experiences they become a primary source of symptoms for which people seek relief so it might help here to give an example but if you're seeking for relief from emotional pain sometimes we seek it in not so good ways And it stems from our early childhood, you know, being aware of it is just this important first step. So let me share another insight from Dr. Cazalino. He says that unlike our caveman ancestors, our survival no longer depends on how fast we run or climb a tree or tell the difference between poisonous mushrooms. Those were things that were critical many, many, many years ago. But now rather than that, we now survive based on our ability to detect the needs and intentions of those around us. So our primary environment has now become other people. That's a hugely important thing right there. What you just said. I know it took me a while to kind of wrap my head around all of that. But the more I dive into it, the more it makes so much sense that we're not independent and just trying to survive our physical environment. We are socially interdependent and we have to rely on other people for our survival. So if we want to be successful in relationships, we have to get what we need to survive, you know, from those relationships. So we do that by reading and reacting to other people's behaviors, their emotions, their attitudes, all of that has actually been hard wired into our brains. We're born hard wired to connect, but we are also wired to attune to others, resonate with others and learn from others. And in addition to that, we are wired to need others, and we need them to treat us with care and with compassion. And so decades of research findings across all disciplines point to this very important conclusion. Those who are nurtured best will survive best. Our emotional resilience and our ability to learn are inextricably woven together. Our ability to learn is born of our emotional resilience. Those of us who are nurtured best, survived best. And a lot of teachers already know this. Kids that show up with really healthy attachment, really healthy interworking models are the ones whose brains are ready to learn. Well, we teach all the time that really there's an order to this learning and it's not what you think it is. It's physical and emotional safety being connected and being regulated. That has to be in place before we learn. I mean, you and I, whenever we speak, we just say it on repeat. We cannot expect that learning brain to light up until those things are in place. So, yeah, this is, I would consider a mic drop here that we're not survival of the fittest. We are survival of the most nurtured. I love that. You know, learning anything positive, any curriculum at school, or how to love and receive love from home or anywhere requires freedom from fear. There has to be safety in place, emotional safety. The most important aspect of early attachment is the establishment of the sense of safety. So establishing and maintaining trust going back to that whole attachment cycle is the first and most important order of business in a therapeutic parent child relationship and also in a teacher student relationship. So I'm going to let you set with that for a beat because that is really important and then I'm going to throw a yes and sort of thing in here because I'm reminded of what Dr. Gabor Mate has had to say about attachment and authenticity. So this is an interesting thing, I think, or about attachment versus authenticity, right? So having just finished reading the myth of normal which I highly recommend and I know you too, we're probably going to end up talking more about pieces of that and upcoming episodes. It's a lengthy book but an important read. Dr. Mate is clear about attachment being our initial primary need, just like everyone else that is into the interpersonal neurobiology strategies. He believes that, like everyone else, that we're wired for it, that human being infants need someone to attach to in order to survive. But often very early in our lives, we start to learn through subtle ways from the adults, from our caregivers what is acceptable in their eyes and what is not acceptable in their eyes and then we have to choose between actually expressing our feelings and possibly emotionally pushing our adults away or just pushing those feelings down, tamping those feelings down because I'm choosing between being myself as an individual and possibly losing that attachment which is all about survival or not showing those feelings. And Mate writes that I'm going to pick the option of tamping it down every single time because it's all about survival, authenticity, the quality that we all praise on the surface. It's really hard for us as adults to remain authentic and it's hard for us as children, even harder because we're afraid for our survival unless we're in an environment that is trying to nurture that authenticity. People will usually sacrifice who they are for connection. We've done a podcast on belonging versus fitting in and so you all kind of have the concept of how those things work but just think about that for a minute that as adults we're willing to compromise who we are in order to maintain connections, personal connections of all kinds. So it's even more so for children and then figuring out what authenticity is is kind of hard to define. So he says it's kind of like trying to define love. It's a concept that we know and we're experiencing it. Like if we are in love or we're expressing love or we're feeling love coming back and from somebody else we know what we may not be able to give you that Webster's dictionary definition of it but we know it. And the same thing is with authenticity is that it's something that we know. We've liked authenticity and other people because it makes us feel like we can trust them and we know what we're dealing with our own, you know, defenses come down a lot in the face of authenticity but it's hard for it to happen because of all the subtle messages that you are sending back and forth. So here's Dr. Maté again. The lack of authenticity makes itself known through tension, anxiety, irritability, regret, depression or fatigue. When any of these disturbances surface, and I think he's talking about for us as individuals, we can inquire of ourselves. Is there an inner guidance that I am defying, resisting, ignoring or avoiding? Are there truths that I'm withholding from expression or even contemplation? Like I'm not going to think about them out of fear of losing my security or my belonging. So in other words, am I choosing the security of this situation and the connection and the attachment over who I really am? I'll just push away who I really am. So as a parent or a teacher, I think it's really important that we understand that human beings we all do this, our children are going to do it too, so that we're aware of our own stuff, our own shark music that's playing and sending messages that might cause our children to tamp down their own expression and their emotions. We might be stenting the child's authenticity, communicating that who they are and how they feel and maybe they're feeling a negative feeling we don't want to deal with because of our shark music, maybe they're feeling fear or anger or you know something we weren't really allowed to express as when we were children or that we are afraid of their expression of that. So we're sending this very, it could be a very subtle message, it could be a very overt message that that's not good and very often our children will zip it up and not express that anymore and that leaves them feeling all of those negative things that Dr. Mate was talking about, regret and anxiety and other things. So this is just one of the reasons why we really need to explore our shark music and work on our own authenticity and work on the healthy ways of expressing emotions in front of our children, in front of the children we work with in front of the children that we're raising so that they learn how to do that too. We're more open and available for others and they become that way as well. Yeah because it is normal and automatic for children if they are scared, if they experience fear, anxiety to go into those trauma responses, those fight, flight free stress responses. just a natural response to wanting to survive and emotionally and physically. And that makes it a very difficult challenge for a caregiver or educator to figure out how to encourage children and students, how to overcome those fears. We want our children to conquer challenges rather than avoid them, but we're fighting against a really hard uphill battle here. So I wanna share with you something that will really help. That's what we also really wanna focus on today too. An important concept that Dr. Bruce Perry talks about is dosing, therapeutic dosing. Small doses of exposure to a fear stimulus while staying emotionally and physically and cognitively present. So I mean, for example, if you heard the phrase, get back up on the horse again after you've been bucked off. - I hear that in a literal sense. My daughter's, she's taken the therapeutic horseback writing lessons and now does horseback writing competitions for years or well over a decade. Her instructor is a stickler for this. And I've watched it happen many times because writers fall, they fall when they're just writing, they fall when they're definitely fall, when they're jumping and they're learning new maneuvers. And she always is insistent that the writer gets back up on the horse, you know, unless of course they're too injured to do that. But the reason is to reduce that fear and they can take it slow and there can be a whole lot of other things you know, they're done to help them overcome that fear. They may not have to stay up on that horse very long if the fear is great enough, but the point is, you know, you have to, you know, get back up on the horse to know that not every time you're gonna fall and then you know, even falling is okay. And just sort of learn the safety and get the support around that. And she does it in a very supportive way, so it's true. And it's a great approach to life, period. - Well, yeah, and it's exactly what you said. It's done in a supportive way. We're not saying get back up on that horse by yourself forever. It's a therapeutic small dose of saying, I'm here with you, you can do this. I'm not leaving you alone. And you don't have to do it for the next eight hours. Parents do this all the time by simply just holding their child and soothing them through a fear, whether it's a perceived fear or an actual, you know, something to be scared of. When you're saying, I'm here, you're okay. That is a therapeutic dose. Teachers do it by pumpkin and breaking down complex tasks into manageable parts. And then encouraging the student through each step, right? Not saying, okay, now go do this, but how I'm gonna walk you through. If you need help during each step of the problem, that's what I'm here for. So it's about like giving small wins and celebrating each little small step and win. - No, I think dosing is a hugely important thing for us to understand. And if we have children who are having big feelings, it's a great tool to work through whatever it is that they are afraid of or anxious about. And like you said, let them have those tiny wins because then they start to build their confidence. - It can even be just a high five in the hall at school. You know, just you having eyes on the student and giving them a wink or a pat on the back, just letting them know, we see you, I am here for you. Dr. Perry says it can be three minutes or less, even a five second therapeutic dose of something positive is just as powerful as something long and drawn out. And that really gives us permission not to feel overwhelmed. We can do a therapeutic dose. - Right. And I want to point out because some of you might not have listened to us from the beginning, that when we use the word therapeutic, we're not talking about being a therapist. That's a whole different ball of wax. They're completely therapeutic means healing. A healing dose. We all want therapeutic something. I want a therapeutic back massage sometimes for my husband or kids. You know, it makes me feel good. It makes me feel more healed than I was from the stress and the tension in my muscles. So that's what we mean is that when you do something with the intent of bringing around healing and nurturing its therapeutic. So we've alluded to this throughout our conversation today that at the crux of all of this is that we can and we should start being therapeutic for ourselves. Start healing ourselves. Start exploring our own shark music that one of the best gifts we can give the children in our care, whether there are children that we're raising or children that we're teaching is to know about our own interworking models and understand what's going on underneath for us in that shark music. Those of us who are parenting children from hard places and Ginger and I fall into that category and you may as well, children who have come from backgrounds where neglect abuse have caused chronic stress, developmental trauma kind of things. We have a unique opportunity as the parents of children who have come to us and may not have the healthiest of attachment styles to make a real difference. And what happens next for them, right? And then also not for them, but their children and generations going forward. Karen Purvis said, I ask parents to be fearless and brave at looking at their own histories and their own stories. And it does take a little bit of that. Actually, it can take a lot of that to really come to grips with what happened to us. And it may take therapy, actual therapist therapy for us, I highly encourage that for you and recommend that to you as a way to explore this if you need. Another great resource, a book resource that you could start with is called Parenting from the Inside Out. It's a book by Dan Siegel and Mary Hartzwell. Dan says parents understanding their own history and their own tendencies and their own triggers is probably the very best thing a parent can do. So if you haven't started that exploration and you're a parent, I encourage you. It's not easy, but it's very, very important. And it really helps you in the long run to figure out how to better parent your children. And I know that everybody wants that. I know that the idea of good enough parenting takes us out of that perfectionism. But the truth is we all want to do this really well. And that's good. That's good for our kids. And educators too. I've met many educators and most of them that I meet is abundantly apparent that they're in it for the kids. I mean, they're not in it for, you know, to get richer or all the other things that don't happen for educators. They're in it because they care about children. And it's really important for us to know that everybody who's working with loving and living with these little human beings for us to understand our own inner working models and to become aware of what's underneath for us, what's going on in our shark music. I want to kind of start wrapping us up with the following from Dr. Fazalino again because his work is so good. And it really just will tie this all together. He says that evolution has shaped us to love one another. This may be why so many of life's most gratifying experiences are those that are shared. Loving relationships help our brains to develop, integrate and remain flexible. Through love, we regulate each other's brain chemistry, sense of well-being, and immunological functioning. When the drive to love is thwarted, like when we're frightened, abused or neglected or our mental health is compromised, adults who thrive despite childhood neglect and abuse often describe life-affirming experiences with others who made them feel cared for and worthwhile. And Harvard teaches us how resilience is built when we love to talk about this because it's built through caring, supportive, attuned response of predictable and safe relationships. That potential for healing is all around us. It's in the caring teacher who goes the extra mile, the nurse who listens to the patient. When the patient has no visitors, the anonymous acts of kindness that take us by surprise, if we're fortunate enough to find someone who loves us, then we have opportunities to heal. And the good news is that our attachment styles can change. There is consistency in attachment style from childhood to adulthood and many people show changes that reflect ongoing neuroplasticity in attachment circuitry. Early, secure attachment, it doesn't immunize a child from later relationship difficulty, just as insecure attachments don't guarantee later psychopathology. So working on our own attachment challenges and relational health is important. It always benefits ourselves and of course those who we are in relationship with, which would be another great episode to talk about. - Yeah, I don't think that we're done with this topic of attachment because we have the attachment and trauma network. I think it's really important for you to know that what happened in your early beginnings is got a huge impact on what your attachment is. styles and your attachment challenges are right now, but that you can change that and we can help our children change it, you know, if it needs to be changed and all the work that we do on relationships is good work. It's an important work because, like the quote that Ginger read earlier, you know, that's what our environment is all about other people, our environment in relationships. So something that we need to recognize that we're not going to be chased by bears, but we are going to be relational with human beings for the rest of our lives and we're going to need those skills. But for today, knowing that our inner working models in literature, it says our IWMs are created before we have language and memory and are based on our first attachment with our primary caregivers. That's the most important takeaway, right? And if you're caring for an infant or you're caring for people who care for infants, like some of those grandma's out there are, this information is crucial, right? If you're caring for and working with older children, you can look for clues about their inner working models. It'll come out in the things that they do and the things that they say and clues about your own inner working model in the way that you behave, especially when you believe those behaviors are, well, just the way I am at my very core, that's your inner working model. And as we say often in this journey, as we're building healthier relationships and we're working towards resilience, when we know better, we do better. We'll catch you all next time. This has been another episode of regulated and relational. Tune in next time when Alice and Morgan will join Ginger and Julie to explore the Vegas nerve. A special thanks to Lorraine Schneider, our editor and Joe Kramer for donating our music. For more information about the attachment and trauma network, visit our website at attachtrauma.org. Show notes and upcoming episodes will be available on our website and to hanker.fm. I'm Danny Pancras. Thanks for listening.