Ep. 56: Should Digong now brace for ICC trial?

Ginya o naman ka Youg Pyong sa our live facts first episode, Ginya O Aropu ng Bernes. Today is March 6, 2026, komo sa pubakaya. We have a live double header for tonight, at ito puso our first episode, kusakupu sa anang gumuan ng isang atinatawin na para post mortem, because it's been a nababang. About a week na yata, since at a post pwoyon confirmation of charges hearings, jahan puso international criminal court. So basically pretrial puto. Ito puso kaso na crimes against humanity, laban dito kayo. Daoting pangolong rudrigudottertem. At mga nta pong himayin, yung mga naging argumento po ng prosikusio ka nyo mga inedatag po ng prosikusio ka, and of course yung mga inedatag din po ng kanyan defense team. And of course, parang po po added context dito sa Pilipinas, dahil po meron ako sa shun, at least yung pasaring at the verilis. Although, may junaralabuan po tayo, doon sa ako sa shun na parantilay laban o baue. Nito ng so-called 18 former soldiers, daba yung claim na nag-deriverdau sila ng malay, malayatang salapik, teruchun of more than 800 billion pesos at bahagiron ng delivery para dodoon sa mga ICC prosikusio team members or representatives dito sa Pilipinas. Hindi po malayat nabaga yung ganong paraatang. So, ako saapan din po natin, eh, vedibang habulin nito mga nipaparatang na ito. Okay, I'd like to welcome again to our program sa push yung senior expert dito po sa International Center for Transitional Justice, former PCGG Commissioner, Yung Mandraids Lawyer, and of course, experto po po addedin sa International Law. I'd like to welcome again to our program, to attorney Rubeyn Karan sa mag-anang habipot. And thank you for joining us. It's a po sa Fox First. Mag-anang habiday in Christian, glad to be back. Okay, so again po, para dito, mag-anang daka sa pag-usapan ito of few days after na, about a week after na tapos po yung confirmation of Georgia's hearings. Mag-anang may conting detachment, kahitapano. Pero, ko sa kong tanonging kayaon o, ano may nag-anang overall impression yo, doon po sa nag-intakbo ng mga hearings na yan. Especially, if you are to appreciate what was presented by the prosikusio team and how the defense responded. Well, it was as dramatic as I think most people watching expected it to be. Ang drama, hindi lang galing sa prosikusio, na hil malinao na man, nakilanganilang ipakita, ng yare, kapana hana mayorsido tertisadaval, hangga naging presidente. Pero lalo na yung drama na emotional na appeal. Ang galing sa mga abugada ng victimano, ng ming kaklasikos, yo, joel butuya na, kasi Gilbert andres. Ang then, mapapan sinding ng mananod, sa masi-paulina masida, Office of Public Council for Victims, doon sa Ro, nina, joel at the Gilbert. At the same time, sa defense, I'm sure we expected drama as well, because before the confirmation of charges hearing may drama, nicolas, cof, nga, yung cliente, nila, basilang, suposid, galing, kaya, duterte, piliyarmahan, duterte, hirap, duterte, duterte, but dictated on the manan, dut, hindi, sa atend, dut sa hearing, nila, nila, nila, nila, ang corte. So, o kay dasa na yung hanggang turnan sa maisakit tako, ay ako dung maghatem, pero hina luan duterte at ni-cofman, dahil dito man mga yari ako, wala si-cofman, hina luan dila ng argumento, nabun sa jurisdiction, at sakasa pang diniig, no? So, may drama nabagupal ang pomaso. But overall, makigitana manaten na yung judges mismo, at look, including yung presiding judge, yung judge juliam mutuk, at yung office of the prosecutor na ICC, I think they also tried their best to tone down yung appeals to emotion, but also, especially, yung appeals to emotion that exceeded the rules of the court. They tried their best to frame it back into what it should be. It's a legal proceeding to decide whether duterte should be brought to trial. Okay. So, yung appeals to emotion, shempre, indi naman po yan may iyoas ang kahit, astricklida, patigal po impagagogusaapano. Pero gusok po pagusaapan yung anam. Yung, what do you think of how the prosecution team presented near their presentation in terms of establishing the connection between Rodrigo duterte and the actual killings. And what do you think of the law? For example, if you are not familiar with technical issues, and maybe I should say this first. Of course, the law of Filipino is a Filipino. I know that you are frustrated with no Filipino translation of what was happening. You could only hear in English or in French. So, you can't even speak in French, you can't even speak in French. But otherwise, it was all in English. You know, because you have to know the technical part of the law of the prosecution of the case or the trial purposes. We have to know that the charges of the law of Filipino crimes against humanity. There are 49 instances, and then a number of victims in each of those counts. And then that is the possibility of the law of the prosecution directly ordering, conspiring, or aiding, and a betting. So, I'm not simplifying because the language is not that ICC3T. The law of the prosecution is based on the title of the possibility of the law of the prosecution. So, if you are a suspect, or if you are a suspect, or if you are the same as the law of the prosecution, the law of the prosecution is based on the law of the prosecution. Of course, in the case of the law of the prosecution, ang mismong ang vangsa salitan, deklara son, yung Rodrigo Duterte, ng mayor siya, but lalo nandong President-Disha. Expected, ang maganda sa palayay ko. Indealang pinakita, ang mismong vangsa salitan sa Duterte, pero pinakita yung nangyari, pagkatapos magsalitan sa Duterte. Ang prosikution na yung words of consequences, especially from a President. Ang din hindi lang na tapos dung sa pagpapakita ng mga pangayayari, pagkatapos magsalitan sa Duterte. Mga mga speech sa duterte. Sa bahin niya, ay allowing policemen to kill. Ang din, of course, the prosikution will show na may mga nangmatahingap pagkatapos nong. Pero hindi lang yun, pinakita din ang prosikution na walaang ibang interpretation, dung sa mga pangayari, kondi, sinunod ang police, yung sinabili duterte. Kasit, dung pumuntasi kof man, nubilang ang bugadon duterte, sa habili kof man. Maraming naman posibling dahilan kung bagit may pataya at hindi lang dung sinabili duterte. Dung papasak yung pangalawa, importante ng bagay dito na, hindi natin nakita masha sa pretail, pero nakita natin bagong pretail. Pindangan nga lang ng prosikutor ng ICC, yung co-perpetrator sa yung mga kasamang gumawa ng krimen, na unalastir, naka itim yung mga pangalan niyan. Biliksan ng prosikutor yung mga pangalan, nakita natin niyo si-no, si-Rolando Batos, si Bongo, naga, si-6 other people, plus, meron pang number 9, other officials of the PNP and the government. So posibling may dahilan, may dahilan. Dinaamit ng prosikutor yung listahan na yan, to show that hindi naman kasit ka ilangan nasi duterte, magsasalita, and then yung polis papata, na yung mga tawa sa illalimit duterte. Nasi ammanin ng guru na, kung ano yung sinabili mga yayare, kita, po ang yung papel ng bawat isa, and we must always remember, pretrialan niyo, so hindi ka ilangan, proof beyond reasonable doubt, po ang imawa, hindi ka ilangan, tomesti go na mis mo yung mga tisti goong polis, no, so called insider witnesses yung mga kasamang sa death squad. Hindi ka ilangan, ifa, ifa, ifa presenta sa porti at this point, hindi ka ilangan, tomesti go si-la, hindi ka ilangan, mikroos examination, nanginipakayon ng adon. Pero, yung gidowan ng prosecution at sa palayay ko, pinakita lang ng prosecution na kapag binok sa natin ito papunta sa mismong trial. Laloong lalabas ang ibydengja, laloong may papakita halimawa ng testigo, no. Oral testimony kung ano naringinig nilaka na terte at ano ang gidowan na pagkatapos na marining sa terte. Given that, mga pupang ano. There's no other road, but for this to lead on actual trial. May isapang posibilidad, Christian, na hindi mag-gakat-rial. It's important to remember, yung question ng jurisdiction, yung kapang yarihan ng ICC na to mga bismo ng paraatang labankay duterte. Naka, apilayan, no. There are appeals chambers ICC. I want to be very clear, sa mga nakininig sa sayong nayan. Sirius na isyo ang jurisdiction ICC, no. Marigang kasunag in other countries. Nasi na habinag ICC na, wala kamiing jurisdiction for different reasons, no. Dahil lumampas na yung panahon na. Hindi pa, hindi pa kasama sa ICC yung sambansa. Or yung crimen na pinaparatang hindi naman kasama sa ICC 3. Ibat ibang dahilan, but they take jurisdiction seriously. Naki kitakokasin ng argumento, haling bawan mo mga produterte peepal, sa sabihin habinayaran lang yung corte, kangaro-cort, korap yung mga judges. Naki kitakokasin ng isyo na sila mis mo magagamit sa dalilan. Toto o na man na naman pa dimong iquestion ang jurisdiction. ICC decide it has no jurisdiction, there will be no trial, the third they will be released, and the case will be over. But in tayinin yan, yung decision over jurisdiction, because that might come out before the pre-trial chamber decides whether the third they will be held for trial or not. Yung pre-trial chamber has 60 days to decide that. Yung appeals chamber that they decide on jurisdiction already has a period to decide it. And so it will probably come sooner rather than later. But I think it's not that they will be released in the issue of jurisdiction, and they will be released in the issue of ICC appeal chamber. Yes, there is jurisdiction of ICC over this case. Given what was presented on the pre-trial, do you think a logical direction is to proceed to actual trial? Definitely. And the only thing that will happen is that the prosecution will be released in the pre-trial chamber. He will try his best to neutralize, if not for the court, if he is arrested, there will be bits and pieces of attacks from the defense. He was relying on the presumption of innocence. The problem is that when he relies on the presumption of innocence, he will not be able to try it. So if you don't believe that the prosecution will be released in the evidence, but the government will be released in the argument, even at the level of proof, so that we won't be able to do the case in trial. And I don't think he succeeded in doing that. Okay. So this is it. Because I said in the last comment, the attempts to put holes in the argument of the prosecution. I said in the cherpic, because the prosecutors are just making speeches in the country to get more information about the narrative of the widespread killing in the past, because this is a real threat. Because the pattern of the speech is really a threat. Especially after the issue, after a few months, after he assumed the office, the speech is really a threat. Later on, he will be able to contact himself, but again, he will be able to talk to him in the house, and he will be able to do it. It's a full legal responsibility, etc. The question is, what are the battle of parts that are being used either by Kaufmann or the prosecution in particular speeches by the former president? How is that ordinarily appreciated? Let's say by the pretrial chamber. There are some dating cases in the ICC, not just in the Philippines. Malinau, the role of the ICC, is not a direct evidence of someone directing or ordering, encouraging the commission of the crime. The crime happens. It's not just direct connection, the next source of the information. It's not just the inference, the inference, the inference, the fact that we can use this to infer something from one event and then the consequences that follow. Dahil, maraming kasos sa ICC, Hindi naman dokomentardo ang utos, si Hindi naman takasular nakatay, naka-i-mail, yung directive yung memorandum yung order ng-mahakomanda rin limbawa sa gierak sa bihin sa mga Sundalam nilandong salabas na patainyo ito, gasa aainiyo ito o ito orchogiton ang s-o. So they're not usually written down because commanders would know that there are war crimes, these are war crimes and pagalawa. Hindi ke lang ang isulat, alam naman na mga Sundalo na papayagang silang gawin ito mga krimen ito. That's the big difference in the duterti case, it was written down. Nakasulat sa memorandum, neutralize, nakasulat sa memorandum, operate against these targets, operate in these neighborhoods, without of course saying kill people without due process because that's needless to say. And that's the problem, dun sa sinabi mga make qualification nandinata duterti later on in these speeches, it's the original tapang niya, parang shakan o, yung mga pilipe nubig lang natakot dahil may isang presidentin na sinagaw sa bihin, apaka prangka, apaka directa, and they thought that it's emeryun, akala dila, mag-andang baga yung prangkaka patainyong mga taong yung aang kaayt na walang dinaanang due process, and then later on it qualifies it. Yung qualification was unnecessary, yung qualification only in fact adds to the malice, yung malicia nakasamadun sa onan yung sinabi, kapos babawin niya by saing, pero only in self defense, only kapag nandinaban lang, dahil hindi muna man maa isolatian sa mga nangyare, nana sinabi ka sinamagapulis nandinaban. So later on dina dina dina duduterti nandinaban, so in the same way, asa sabihin dikovmana, in di po ding itcherepik yung status duterti, indirin po di itcherepik yung qualification duterti, dahil may contexton, nangyang mga nangyare sa labas ng speeches, dinaan nang kapakita, kung bucket yasinabi, nga qualification na ito. Ang saakan pun dating nyan, nana, perhaps to you say a cross version of that kind of style by duterti, parang yung nagoatain tanga, pati yung mga nasa ICC pretrial. Yung parabang yung labanobawa, yung parabang hindi nabibirulang ako, yung parabang yung pabogibugin na style na sa tinginyan yung ubara sa mga takasuportan yung dita, sa Pilipinas, yung mga dDS, parang feeding yata nalag yung ubara yung ganu argumento, podatang yung jasup pretrial chamber. Yung observiation ko, para mga nangyolokohan eh. Merong sinabi si kofmana, nga connected to this, na tinginyang ko attempt niya ito, to show na, even if we say, yung pagbawin yung duterti hindi naman totong pagbawin lahil, nga kapatayan parin, kaya tabinawin niya nong, kaya tabinawin niya nga kaya tabinawin. Kaya tabinawin nga kapatayan parin, so obviously hindi naman lahatyan nalaban, nga. Ang dagnik kof manjan, sa habi niya, hindi naman ganun kadami ang naman, hindi naman mas mataspa sa normal na patayan sa Pilipinas. And then, yung dingyayan dun sa patayan sa dragwar, pagkatapos ng kubalisiduterti na si Markus na yung presiderti dimag- nginitat sa yung data. And I think that was a clever argument, to show na. Kaya kupa da hunig Markus ang damipang naman tai, ang damiparin patayan nangyari. wak, wak, what he, what he, of course did that show. 'Todoh, to the Petyal Chamber, was the fact that yung mga patayan sa panahunidotere taira, exceeds the official number that was reported. So, the kina-compernya is the official number that the police acknowledge and the unofficial number sa panahunimarchos. So that if you only believe the police, the number of deaths, murders that the police recognize is the same or even lower than the number of deaths under Marcos, after it took office. It also goes into one more point that you know, gamit ni kofman and easily I think seen by the judges. You know, gamit ni kofman the official data from the Philippine National Police. You know, gamit ni kofman the official interpretation of the Philippine National Police. You know, gamit ni kofman the interpretation of the official is tairte to kong saanong yung gina-gawadila nong panahunidotere. And I think, you know, kong judge kaya ni yung si dasabi mo naginanowakang tangana kasi ang masin sa cover petreito. So makit mo, gamit ni yung official record nila of what they were doing. Precisely. Precisely. Okay. And tabanah sa hulimbahagi kisong panahanitong anong you're aware of the supposed expose but this supposed live former soldiers basically yung isasamangaparatang nila mga nabribed to mga ICC representatives nabumisigita sa Pilipinas at nangkasun nga itong sa former senator Sanitrillianis daban ditoon sa managpapakalit niyan ng gannyangan na natibom. Pero kisong kong pagkusapano. Pedi ba? Pedi petanak. Kasi ang nga gindi batasi Sanitrillianis kaka dos ang abogadano mo ng so-called ex-marins no si levy balikod sabi ni Sanitrillianis nakao, kisong kasi ang abulin dawa dalo sa tenatao nga article 70. Can you explain that? Pada pataragasin ang panagotin for those malicious statements or accusations that they hurled against the ICC representatives. So, sa isang kaso sa ICC nga, nga sa masa doteerate case. Bayabogado at chakao, kis manager, yung tagabigay ng pondo, tagamangich nangkaso para sa defense or for the defense. So, isang defense lawyer at chakao ang case manager kasi two other persons yung mga kasamanila. They reached out to witnesses. They paid witnesses. They probably also intimidated witnesses. Nalaman niyan ang ICC dahil. Yung, this was really stupid. Yung ICC, of course, has access to the phone calls no ndiitinado. Ndi na manfua, they private ya, no? And they were able to realize that there were instructions coming from the accused. Paradon sa abogada. And then yung abogada naman nga girele. Nalaman niyan ang ICC. No? Kina suhan sila, under Article 70. Obstruction of justice, no? Sayan sa mga krimen sa ICC treaty, na hindi war crimes, hindi crimes against humanity, hindi aggression, hindi gender cycle, that simple obstruction of justice. Kina suhan sila, niliit sila, at pinaro sa Hansila ng pagkagakulong. Hinoly sila, because nandun lang sila sa Belgium, tandaan natin yung ICC nasa nether, kata bilang niyan. So, they were arrested by Belgian authorities and they were brought to the ICC and they were punished and tried. That's the same case that Senator Trilianas is invoking, that's the same provision, Article 70. Ndi natin alam, no? Kung halimbaowa, yung abogado, yung abogado at yung mga sila sabit niyang testigo, na may bribery. So, that's the worst part, no? These people are accusing the ICC of accepting crimes, of committing corruption, to either charge, prosecute, detain, to do the dirty art. So, hindi lang ito obstruction of justice. Meron talaga malicious attribution of crime, to the ICC. So, it's in a way, it's as serious or even more serious than the other case that I mentioned. Indik o alam kung kakasuhan sila ng ICC, investigant sila ng ICC. I think it's serious enough for the Office of the Prosecutor to pay attention to what they're saying, to what they're doing. And I think if they persist, they could be issued warrants of arrest. There could be a separate confidential investigation going on. And if they persist, they could be brought to the ICC themselves. Kung mga aripuya kung talaga ng kasuhan sila. Papanun sila, dahilin sa ICC. Elan ba idahan sa local courts, or pwedeng gamitin ang ating sa reeling batas laban sa crimes against humanity. Because it's a warrants of arrest, it should buy a court, even if the Philippines is no longer a member of the ICC. Pueden naman kasin makipang cooperate ang isang bansa, kahit nangindika, Indie-Bembrod ang ICC. Ang United States, nga dala nang isang suspect datipa, nga saAfrica, nga sure, sinurenda, kinuha sa US Embassy door, dita lagsayag. So, there's no need to go through a local court. There are provisions in ICC 3T that have been dahil hindos at Judition Authority ang isang tao na may warrants of arrest. No, but the purpose of this is to keep the tao, nga kailagayag ng sa warrants of arrest, and that there's no torture, no physical violence, nga giname, nga labag sa batas because you can use force to enforce a warrants of arrest. And Indie-Bembrod ang isang nga magkakarong nang pagdiritis sa Pilipinas ng polsa validity ng warrants ng isisino. So, as simple as that. Okay. As a good boy, attorney Ruben Karanza, maraming maraming salamat pa for joining us tonight dito pa sa Fox First. Of course. Invite kupukay mo liit, no? Sa pag-usad hitong kasunay ito. Janposa isisino. Maraming salamat pa, sir, and good morning. Janposa New York. Alright. Okay. Yeah, pa si attorney, Ruben Karanza. Okay. Madara sa natin ka, usapin before, no? Before the elections, I think, no? Like, if we want to put our ill-gatin wealth in Marcos' isa'puyan sa mga resource person's not in. B. That is a pushang commissioner ng BCGG. Okay. Kita kita putai na wild, o kisimulanan poin ang ating sa iconope-sode. Pag-usapan naman po natin ito. Puma, kabastosan na. Nabi-nibitawan. Nga. Anyway, mga nabibin mga nabibin. Okay. Bye-bye.