EP #53- Managing Your Money Post-College with Dina Carkonen, Wealth Management Executive

[MUSIC] The more you can educate yourself on what your personal balance sheet or personal financial statement looks like, and then move towards what is really important to me, what turns me on, what brings me, you know, me endorphins, and how does money play into that? I think that it can help to reduce the amount of unhappiness that money can bring. Welcome back to another episode of Everyday Endorphins. We're now wrapping up the first month of 2022 or towards the end of January, and this is around the time where people's new years resolutions start to fade away. But they don't have to, and I think a lot of us 20-something year old's recent college grads are now grappling with the challenge of learning how to manage our personal finances, being more financially independent, and really trying to understand what financial wellness means. So I thought, who better to bring on to the podcast than Dina Carr-Coden, who works in the financial services industry as a wealth management executive? And in this episode, Dina shares her secrets to financial wellness and talks about how our emotions can directly impact the way we manage and view our money. And she also shares some tips on how to practice financial wellness, how to budget, how to have fun on a budget more importantly. We also unpack the relationship between money and happiness. So I'm really excited for you all to hear this episode. I hope that you can take away some pieces of advice that can be applied to your life, to boost your own endorphins. But before we get into it, I have a brief message from my sponsor, Anchor. Hi Dina, thank you so much for coming on to the podcast. Yay, happy to be here. Hi Stella, good to see you. I am so excited for this conversation. I think that, you know, I've done an episode on personal finance and financial wellness, but there's still so much that we can learn about managing our finances, like better understanding the importance of like financial literacy, financial wellness, and how that can really impact our own well-being. So I'm so excited to have you on as a guest today. I love for you to start out by, you know, talking a little bit about your background. I know that you work in the financial services industry and you have been for quite some time. So I think, you know, who better to come on to the podcast to talk about these topics? Thanks for having me. It's always such a great opportunity to reach people who think that finance is all about the stock market and confusing investments and things like that. And I think sort of back to basics is where everybody wants to start and get a good feel for how they can, you know, manage their own financial balance sheet, if you will, and kind of get some basic tips and ask any question that doesn't make sense to them. And so I'm excited to have that platform here today. My background really started about 20 plus years ago. I was an English literature major in college, which has nothing to do with finance. Which I love. I love that. That's like the liberal arts education. Yeah, I think it's a great, I feel lucky to be a female in this business and to have sort of a different background because I think it lends to the fact that you can find what the right fit is for you, regardless of what you think the job description looks like. And I'll explain a bit of that. But I've been in financial services for about 20 plus years. And I grew up in the business. My dad was also a wealth manager worked with individuals and families and helped them with financial planning and investing. So I had a sense of what that meant to work in that business. But I had really not much interest in it. And so I really liked English. I really liked writing, creative writing. And so I took that route in school and actually moved out to New York with the intention of building a career in journalism or in publishing or something along those lines. And very quickly found out that what I thought was a career path or what I thought the day-to-day would be for a certain job description wasn't and it wasn't my speed. And so it was a great opportunity for me to find out what other industries were like. And so I met some folks that were in the financial services industry and ended up getting a job with Morgan Stanley at the time. It was called Smith Barney, but now Morgan Stanley. And it was a great chance for me to connect the dots between, again, what you think a job is going to be like or an industry and what you're actually doing. And for me, what that meant was what was important to me was being around a lot of different types of people in an environment that was much more challenging every day than I expected and understood. So to be around a lot of people that were a lot smarter than me, I guess, has always had been interesting and concepts and ideas that were always something I could work towards learning more about. And so this job gave me a chance to work with a bunch of different people on a sales desk, which means you're answering phone calls from stock brokers essentially and helping them find mutual funds and other products that would be helpful to their clients. So that was kind of my start. And from there, I, you know, what I understood about finance was very little and it just continued to grow and grow and what it made me realize was that instead of looking at a job description or thinking I had to be super interested in the stock market or things like that, I realized I wanted to help people solve problems, try to understand the psychology between money and, you know, emotion with money and how that affects how people save and invest. And then I ended up kind of along the road taking other positions which expanded my knowledge in the industry and more recently have been working just with individuals and families, which again has been very interesting in understanding kind of the psychology of money and how people grew up and felt about money and how their family looked at it and treated it and which really then affects how adults handle their finances. Sometimes it's the opposite, but it often has a huge impact and so that's been really exciting for me to be able to help people in that way. Before we even get into like the psychology of money and some practical tips in, you know, how we can manage our finances, I really want to talk more about that shift in, you know, what you studied undergrad in literature and like creative writing and something that's more creative focused and humanities focused and then going into like the financial industry, I think, honestly, my perspective is like you should study what you want in college and the rest does fall into place if you kind of follow those passions and it's like I think now more than ever people are starting to follow that non-traditional like non-linear path and I think there's also something to be said around starting the workforce and think like expecting one thing and then experiencing something completely different because job descriptions can be so vague and like you may think that you're interested in a specific position but then by the time you're actually there, your day to day is wildly different than what you thought you'd be doing, you know, whether it's like the task itself, how it's described versus how it's actually like implemented or the people that you're working with, like that can totally dictate how you feel at that specific job or the company or like the type of work that you're doing. Exactly and I think that I always had a drive towards, like you said, in school at least, doing what I liked and what felt natural to me and had didn't think much about where that would take me other than I was building skills in one way or another and I think the world is much more competitive likely for college students these days, there are a lot of different legs that have come from other industries, there's new things happening since the pandemic that are opportunities but I think ultimately one were to sit down and write down the things that were important to them and what they want in a job, you would find that there's, you know, your list is expanding beyond what you would expect to be based on your major or your studies and that was really eye-opening to me, I moved to New York thinking I wanted to be involved in fashion or work at magazine or something, you know, quote unquote, "cool" and what I really realized is that the day-to-day of being in an environment that was really fast moving, that was changing all the time, I certainly worked with a lot of men at the time which thank God our industry has turned a bit and we're still working towards, you know, getting more women in our business but it just was a different experience that I had expected and I ended up being very excited about the chance to afford to be able to afford to live in New York, that was one thing, to be able to stay there, I had to expand my industry job search to find something that could afford to be there. Well, that's like striking that balance of having something that's like practical, like something that can actually support you and like the lifestyle that you want to lead, but also following your passion and I think that in itself is like a whole other discussion, maybe we can get into later in this conversation, it makes sense why you also made that pivot because New York is incredibly expensive and it just keeps getting more expensive. Yes, it's really, really, really important. it does, but thankfully it seems like it's coming back to life, of course. Everybody still runs to New York, which is a great experience, no matter what you do. So that really led me to being interested in some other things, like how can I best, I knew I was a people person, wasn't necessarily super interested in math and economics, which I am now, of course, but at the time it was just an opportunity to sort of engage in sales, understand what kind of rejection feels like when you're talking on the phone or selling something on the phone, getting the concept for, as we talked a little bit about offline earlier, just engaging in the workforce and what that feels like and trying something different and new. And so having that experience, it just launched me into a number of different areas in finance that has snowballed into what I'm doing today. And you work in wealth management. So you're managing people's money, which is different than other areas of the financial industry. And I think this area in particular is so specifically tied to the psychology behind finance and how emotions are related to how we manage and deal with our money. So I'd love for you to share maybe some insights that you've gained in your job and in your role around how we value money and how we interact with money, like how how do our emotions interplay the way in which we value our money and spend it and engage with spending day to day. Yeah, that's a great question. And it's such an interesting one when you're engaging with people in the most personal level. So like a doctor, we're really here to assess and understand somebody's whole picture, their whole financial health and understand their history, understand their habits and all of that, which is much of it is in direct correlation to how they grew up, not correlation, but it's really affected by their experiences growing up with money in their families, as I mentioned. And what their job experience has been, whether they've gotten money handed down to them through generational wealth, whether it's been kind of a built from scratch kind of situation. But I would say it definitely emotion is a huge piece of it. Our job is really to be quiet and listen and try to understand what's important to people, what scares them, what keeps them up at night to use kind of a phrase that everybody hears all the time with investing and money and financial planning. And so it's quite interesting too with family dynamics often one partner, one spouse or the other. They certainly don't have the same viewpoint. So our job is really to try to meet them in the middle and find out how to serve everybody that is a kind of director in the family as far as that's concerned. A lot of times too you understand how people have different roles in their families and so different roles mean different responsibilities. So some people that may handle just the day to day are not really thinking futuristicly about what the longer term plan is. And so that's it's all part of the evaluation of how people think about money and how their personal situation affects how they spend money and save money and teach their kids about money, etc. I also think that these revelations don't really hit until post-grab honestly or maybe like even in college like if you are more financially independent in college because you know if you're fortunate enough to grow up in an environment where things are mostly taken care of for you I'm at least like the basic necessities you're not thinking like where is this money coming from or like really the value of money. It's so much easier to spend other people's money than your own because you're like not you know not attached to that. And then once you're actually more financially independent and start to develop more of that financial independence and have a paycheck and start you know paying for things on your own you you realize that these are intentional choices that you're making and where you put your money at least in my mind is like where your values lie. So it's it's definitely like a steep learning curve I would say about learning how to manage your finances and kind of set yourself up for success and for financial freedom. And going off of that I would love for you to talk a little bit about like your definition around financial independence and financial wellness because oftentimes when we think of like health and and mental health it was a very broad statement but they're often they're super nuanced and financial health is definitely there's a strong interplay with our financial health and our mental health and our emotional health. And so I'd love for you to talk about like your definitions of those terms and what we can learn from you know how to better our own financial health. When you look at wellness and well-being we think about it in so many different terms be it exercise, mental health, job security, whatever whatever that means to you to feel sort of healthy and whole. And I think a big piece of that is certainly financial health and wellness and well-being and like you said oftentimes until you experience something so until you have a home and know what it's like to go through the mortgage process until you have a job and know what it's like to pay taxes and you know invest in a retirement plan from your employer until you move out of your house and some people have been doing it much longer than others. Some people it's fair that those experiences are very new to them but I think for the most part I would pinpoint it to you know education and self-educating yourself on understanding what's important to feeling like you have yourself together from a financial standpoint. So what I mean by that is a lot of people sort of look at what they know and they kind of stick to that so whether that means you know I'm a runner and I'm going to stay healthy by running my whole life and forget these weightlifters that you know it helps with your strength and bones and all of that. Some people do the same thing with money so you know I've never looked at my credit card interest rate so I don't really care I'm just going to ignore it and kind of keep doing the things I've been doing. So in both of those respects to to make the analogy to exercise you can really get a jumpstart and you can really hurt yourself later in life by sort of either educating or under-educating yourself on understanding how you can make your you know how you can engage better from a financial wellness standpoint. Ignoring some of the things because they're confusing or they don't make sense to you can put you in a really bad spot later I think with money and investing and saving it's and I think one of the first steps I would say would just be to kind of root the bandaid off and try to sit down and understand the basics of your situation so how much money do I make every month what does it cost me to live what does my dad look like so how much you know credit card debt do I have and sort of getting a feel for some of those things will just lead you to kind of the next level which will continue to uncover questions and help you I think with education which then leads to you know more questions and more solutions to what might be something that you need to dive into whether it's budgeting whether it's paying down school debt whether it's saving more or investing I think all of that kind of starts with just basic understanding of your particular picture basic understanding of what the issues are that you might have so you know health issues wellness issues financial issues like how do I pay my rent every month how do I pay down this debt etc well I think it just at least opens the door so that you're not you know 40 years old and have never sort of looked at any of your stuff and figured out how to make it better and I think a lot of people end up in that situation where they've just been doing the same thing over and over and they haven't stopped it look under the hood and then they end up you know it's never ever too late but you can certainly get a really big head start the sooner you you understand kind of your again your financial picture and how to improve on any of the things that are standing in your way moving forward I love that you mentioned that because it kind of reminds me of like journaling or writing as a as a form of just taking care of yourself and it's like a very therapeutic process and it seems like you can almost do the same with your finances like you can sit down to reflect on your your goals and your values and if you abstract that another level like let's say you really value health and wellness like I do and a non-negotiable for you is working out and yes there are tons of like exercises you can do without equipment without needing a gym membership like you can exercise for free for certain but maybe your value is that you really you need to be in a community and you need to be around like minded people to get you to to inspire you to work out so maybe you need to actually have a membership to a gym or a studio so you know in your mind like okay that's my value and so I'm going to budget out my money and put it towards that because giving yourself that opportunity will increase your happiness and your endorphins so to speak and I mean I feel like it can also be super overwhelming graduating college and figure thinking oh my god I have like student loans I now have to like support myself like I'm paying rent I have all these expenses, investing is also something that like, you know, I should look into, but I also need to save my money. Like, I feel like this is a conversation that I've had with a lot of people just feeling super overwhelmed and not really knowing where to start. So with that being said, yeah, like what advice would you give on just starting and like starting out your financial life? Yeah, I think you make some really great points. And I think that many people we all have of different experiences, which lead us to where we are, right? And so not everybody ever learned anything about budgeting or anything about money or anything about credit cards or. And so I think that by starting out, either finding somebody that you know that knows more than you about that, so lean on an expert, whatever that means, whether it's a friend or a family member, a podcaster, whatever it is, to find somebody who can help get you started and get you organized and answer all the questions. And I think that's what's most important is I think many people avoid what they don't know because it's scary to them. And I think just finding out what is, you know, kind of what the basis are and how to start. And it's all about kind of creating a plan. So, you know, January 1st is coming up, or I'll gonna have these like me years resolutions that last six weeks into the year. But I think having a plan, whether so if it is paying down student loans or if it is saving and investing, starting and getting some guidance on how do I start? What would be a plan? What are like baby steps that I can take to get to my goals? But I think ultimately, you know, figuring out what you don't know and asking the questions and finding somebody who knows more than you do in that area is a great place to start. That's always like the hardest part is just getting yourself started. You know, another thing that I've noticed is people have varying levels, like varying comfort levels around like how much they're willing to spend in social settings. And New York is a really expensive place, especially after like, you know, the summer I was in Bali and I was traveling and it is so affordable to travel there. Minus the plan to get maybe, but like once you're there, oh my god, you can live for like nothing, especially compared to New York. I've noticed also within my friends, we all have varying comfort levels over how much we're willing to spend like where we want to eat or the activities we want to do. And I've increasingly found the value in having fun on a budget. So I was wondering how can you approach conversations with friends, you know, family loved ones, spouses, whatever? Like how can you approach conversations with people around like your comfort level on your finances, what you're willing to spend. And if you're looking to have fun on a budget, like what can what can you do? What are some things you can do either in New York or really wherever you're located? So like, cut back on spending, but also enjoy quality time with others. I think where you want to start or everybody wants to start because everybody's different and everybody has a different, different resources, different spending levels needs, etc. is, you know, sort of what do I have to work with, right? So what do I have coming in the door? What do I have going out the door that are non-negotiables? So I always think about creating a budget by way of having, you know, fixed and variable expenses. So certain things you have to pay for, right? That that aren't going to very month to month and then other things are variable. And so I think to start determining what your fun money looks like or what your, you know, your resources look like for the things that are important to you. And then, and then sort of backing into what's to your point, what, where do your values lie? Do you love spending money at really nice restaurants? Do you like spending money traveling? Do you, you know, prefer, you know, specific clothing or shoes or bags or whatever that might be? And so, but I think you have to start by, again, educating yourself and understanding what you have to work with because you're really in the driver's seat in that respect. And so a lot of people are playing catch-up later in life because they never sat down to understand how much do I have to work with. And I think it's really tough in New York and anywhere within your group of friends because everybody has a different perspective and everybody has different resources. And so oftentimes what looks like somebody who is saving a lot is, you know, is not. And on the flip side, you can see somebody who's super flashing. It looks like they have a lot of money in reality. They're in deep, deep debt because of it because that's where they want to spend. And so I think just starting with a baseline of, you know, what are my fixed expenses and what do I have to work with? And then backing into you probably can help better than I can with fun things to do in New York on a budget. But I think starting to create a budget and knowing, I think it relieves a lot of stress. So a lot of families that I work with come to come to us and have never really sat down and understood those basics and, you know, how much money is coming in the door. How much money is going out out the door and what's left over. And what do we want to do with it? And so I think people get in the habit of spending money and they set their bar, whatever that might be. And typically you make more money, you spend more money and so that bar keeps rising and rising. So it's really hard once you've been doing that for a long time to take a step back and say, you know, I've been eating out every night for five years. All of a sudden, I realize I really shouldn't be doing that. I can't afford it. And but that's my habit. And so I think the sooner you can figure out what you have to work with and start determining what is most important to you. The easier it is to sort of build wealth, build savings, give yourself opportunities. And that's really what how I see money is it's just opportunity. So opportunity to help yourself, your family, opportunity to relieve stress. It can cause, you know, a lot of problems for a lot of people, both positive and negative. So I mean, meaning people with a lot of money, it can create a lot of unhappiness. People with little money can find a lot of happiness in things outside of wealth. But, you know, understanding, thinking about it and starting with kind of your baseline of what you have to work with would be what I would advise and thinking about a budget. That's a great transition also into my next question, which is around the relationship between happiness and money. You know, there's always that famous quote, money doesn't buy happiness. And I took like micro at some point in college. I wasn't an econ major, but took a little bit of micro economics. And I can't remember if we learned it in this class or maybe like another business class I took. But there's like that graph that shows you achieve happiness to like a specific spot on the graph that like is a specific income. And then the higher you go, it actually plateaus. So I'd love, you know, for you to talk a little bit about that, like that relationship between money and happiness, especially just given the definition you shared with us around money as a way to provide opportunities. I think this is a generic comment, but I think it really applies to not only this situation, but you know, a lot of different things in life. But I think education creates confidence. And so I think the more you can educate yourself on what your personal balance sheet or personal financial statement looks like and then move towards what is really important to me, what turns me on, what brings my, you know, me endorphins and how does money play into that. In other words, if, if you like Lamborghinis and you're spying Lamborghinis every year and you don't have enough money, it creates a lot of stress and unhappiness. I think eventually when you think you're going to fill this hole with something material, whereas, you know, if you love, again, if you love eating nice restaurants and you have an understanding of how much you can spend on that, you can go out and enjoy it more without the stress of thinking you're hurting yourself by doing that. Also what I'm hearing you say is like taking more of this bottom-up approach rather than like a top-down approach. So by bottom-up, I mean assessing your values and like your goals and knowing what you said, your personal balance sheet and then working from there like how does it, where is money like the interplay in that? Whereas thinking, oh, I just want a lot of money, just have a lot of money and spend it. And then you're not mindfully spending. You're not acting with intention. You're not acting with, um, you know, something backed behind that. So I think maybe it's it's in those situations where people are just seeking a lot of money just for the sake of having a lot of money where we start to realize that money does not actually buy happiness because you're you're chasing something external, probably to validate something internal that you've just neglected for a while. And so it it seems like there's also very much an interplay between, you know, our beliefs around money and our self-confidence and our self-esteem. I don't know if there's anything around that that you could speak to, but that's just something that kind of came to mind right now as I was drawing that like analogy between how we approach our mindset around money and like why we're actually seeking more of it. For me personally, I always wanted to be able to take care of myself and so that was a driver for me. So was, you know, to speak more personally. Everybody has their own driver, I think, around money, and I think sometimes it's external, like you said, and sometimes it's internal. And I think even starting there, even starting, you know, to understand how you feel about it, it will affect your future and how money drives you. And I think you can, again, in understanding how it affects you, you can start to change some habits and create better habits, which will lead to more success, I think, and, and, you know, whatever is important to you. But I think just having an understanding of what drives you. If somebody gets a real thrill from spending money and then crashes hard because they can't afford it, like sitting in that for a second and just understanding kind of what that does to you can help you. I think create, you know, better habits and create more intention around how you're spending your money. Because it certainly is the older you get, the worse your habits get, I would say, and it's harder to change them. So I think just starting by, you know, with kind of doing in personal inventory, I'm like, what, you know, why is it, why are you doing things that you're doing and how is money related to that and what, you know, what negative impacts does it have and how do we sort of unpack that? This is also why I really love what Sally Krochek is doing with LVEST because they have so many great, like free workbooks online that are like, you know, meant to be used as tools where you can basically take inventory just like you said, like actually take some time to sit down and think about these things because it can be overlooked so often. And it's kind of like always the last thing on our mind or it's that, you know, it feels very gratifying when the next paycheck comes in, but then you tend to kind of like lose that information that you've already like learned about yourself. Because when you keep seeing money come in, it's very easy to just keep spending it. Like you said, also, like the more money you start to acquire, the more you tend to want to spend. Yeah, and I think back to that original tip of, you know, if you did have a list of here's what are non-negotiables in my life. Here's what I have to spend that paycheck on. And then you get a sense of what's left over. You can really start to organize where it may, you know, again, put your money where your values are and avoid sort of the stress of not knowing, right? Just this sort of unknown paycheck goes into your account and you spend it as you normally would without any sense of how does that affect my future? Definitely. And I think also the value of investing is so important to talk about as well because you can also even think about investing as a form of saving because you're putting money aside for it to grow and then to be, you know, used in the future. I started investing, like kind of late actually, maybe like a year or two ago. And it's just so unfortunate that like women tend to invest later. Like these conversations are just not being had amongst women as they are, like men, when they're younger and, you know, that's something I'm really passionate about now is just closing that gender gap and also like providing more education for young women to like learn about investing and like the value of investing because the earlier you start, the better off you are. But I think that's also in my mind, like I label it as like an expense because it's money I'm taking away to put aside. Which is awesome. Yes. For you, you know, perhaps a value is security and, you know, providing for yourself or having, you know, plan those kinds of things, which I think is suit, you know, just starting that as soon as you can and understanding what it means to you and being able to start, you know, create a foundation for that is really awesome. And, you know, we've talked again offline about things you can do as you're starting in the workplace and, you know, understanding, taking a moment to understand what benefits your company might offer, what an employer might offer, thinking about what an emergency savings bucket looks like for you. So what is it, you know, if you were to lose your job or something would have happened to your car or whatever, whatever is important to your lifestyle, just understanding those basic things and creating some different buckets, like you said. So investing and emergency savings bucket, a fun bucket, a non-negotiable, you know, utilities and rent bucket, all of those things, I think, when led, lead back to kind of the education piece and understanding, you know, if you can understand your situation and you can look at it and consistently refresh your memory on what is important to you with regards to your plan, I think it really creates some great habits. And I, and the other piece on emails and investing, I'm so proud of the fact that we are bringing in a lot more young women into the wealth management and investment business because again, money is not specific to one gender demographic age, et cetera. It affects all of us and we all have to be responsible for ourselves and I think that well for the most part and I think that just having more role models in the wealth management industry and investment industry for females to look towards because the truth is the statistics will tell you, women are going to end up with all the money, mortality tables say in a family that the the female ends up controlling the wealth at one point or another. And so it's really important to have a basic understanding not to abdicate and allow somebody else to sort of take that responsibility. The same as any other household responsibility, but there's a tendency to sort of not be interested because it's not, it's, you know, certainly not super fun to think about sometimes, but it is a place where it's important to to make sure you understand your own situation because life happens and just getting an understanding of, you know, how you're, you can be in control of your own situation, we'll give you confidence, more opportunity, you know, just strength through challenges in your life and I think it's just super important. And also I feel like a lot of people really start to think about money at the point where they're like stressed about it and like their first instance of thinking about money or like their first experience of thinking about it is in a time where they're feeling stressed so there's like negative affect surrounding that experience and I think I think that can kind of color our perception around money whereas, you know, I would now argue that it's important to have these conversations and like actually start thinking about these things when you're kind of neutral on the topic. So you can kind of start from like this blank slate in a fresh perspective and then built like you said, like build that confidence. There's so much to be said about the value around education and having these conversations before you even start to like have those stressors can be, it can be like a preventative. Yeah, because as we all know, when you go through challenges in your life, oftentimes the stress takes over your ability to make smart decisions and so, you know, having an understanding of what those stresses may be, which are all often unpredictable, but you know, just thinking ahead, planning ahead, it's one of those things where you, you don't want to put your situation in someone else's hands. You want to be in charge of your own situation. And I think that's super important, especially when you start making money and have an opportunity to invest because like I said earlier, the sooner you start, the better off, you'll, you know, the more choices you can give yourself and that's always the way I think about it is just, you know, I want opportunity to make my own choices and help avoid the pitfalls that a lot of people frankly ignore because they don't understand them. And so that's, that's where I would say, lean on somebody who does have a sense of how to help educate you on, you know, what's important, help you think about what's important to you and help you think about kind of the basic pitfalls that people can get themselves into and just understanding those things sooner rather than later, especially like you said when you're getting starting out in the workforce, starting to rent your own apartment, starting to have expenses that are new, starting to pay taxes, all those things that are important to have those sense of understanding for. Yeah, and the taxes are the worst part, like so much of your paycheck is just bye bye to taxes. But aside from all of that, I think, you know, this is a great place to land. You gave so much great advice on how to educate yourself around investing, like the value of financial wellness, kind of rethinking what financial health means. And I totally agree, we need more female role models, especially, and you definitely are one to me. So thank you. Before we close today, I have one final question that I ask every guest that comes onto the podcast. What is something that brings you a bit of endorphins every day? Oh, good question. Candy. No, I would say, let's see, I have a seven year old, which brings a lot of joy to me. And so that would probably be my number one for sure. But I think a less cool answer is just back to kind of what we were talking about is just having a sense and an understanding of my surroundings and feeling like I am in a place to be able to kind of take off and have fun in areas that I do. don't get to do all the time. So I love to travel. I love the sunshine. And I think for me, just having a sense of, you know, my surroundings, my home being organized allows me to do those things. So that's part of what brings me into our second to my daughter, I would say. Yeah, I mean, I don't have a kid right now. So I can't relate to that one, but I definitely can relate to that sense of like feeling organized and having things put together. And that I think that produces feelings of just like self-efficacy and feeling like you're accomplished. And like you've accomplished some tasks and it's nice when things are just like in their place and you have a peace of mind, that definitely brings me endorphins as well. Thank you, Dina, so much for coming on to the podcast. Oh, thank you so good to see you. Yes, of course. Thank you for listening and remember to like, rate, and review this podcast on whichever listening platform you prefer. Don't forget to keep spreading endorphins and find things that bring you endorphins every day. See you next time.