Ep. 52 - Breaking Down Walls w/Dr. Summer Watson

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Hey fam, in this episode I sit down with my good friend Dr. Summer Watson, a doctor of psychology, high performance coach, and founder of Core Women. A platform focused on empowering women through mentorship, leadership development, and meaningful connection. During our discussion, we get into personality and leadership, breaking down the walls we build, and the danger of ego getting in the way. I thoroughly enjoyed this conversation and I know you all too. Enjoy. Welcome to the Waypoint Better Podcast, your compass for personal and professional growth, leadership, resilience, and beyond. We envision every milestone as a crucial waypoint in your improvement journey. Join us as we navigate together because at Waypoint Better, we firmly hold the belief that better has no finish line. Let's kickstart the conversation. Yo, welcome back to the Waypoint Better Podcast. We know better has no finish line. This is Joe Bogden, and I am excited to have another amazing human being on the show with me today. The amazing, the great Summer Watson. How are you Summer? I am doing well. Thank you so much. I'm excited to be here. I think this is going to be a great conversation. I feel like this should have been done like three years ago, four years ago by now already. I feel like that too. I think it's been a while and it should have happened like you said years ago. I'm ready. I'm ready for a fun exchange. I think we actually did schedule something at one point years ago, but I think both of our schedules just didn't work. Then, glad that recently we started chatting again. I was like, "Hey, wait a minute. We need to get you on the show." I'm excited that you're here. I just can't wait to get into the conversation, but initially, I'd love for you to share for our audience a little bit about yourself, maybe some of your story, and what it is you do now. Okay. Well, let's just start off. Hey, I had an interesting childhood. Six months of age, I had a spontaneous perforation in my bowel. I had my small intestine rather. surgical procedure after surgical procedure. I almost didn't make it. I went into a coma and they had to rush me to the hospital and do exploratory surgery. That's when they found the hole. My mom was a young mom. She was 19 at the time. She had continued to take me to the hospital or to the doctor and they just kept dismissing her saying, "Hey, listen. She's got the flu. She's got the stomach flu. She's got the cold." And the last lunch took me in. That's when I went into a coma because I was septic. Anyway, I made it through. Here I am today. And unfortunately, over the last weekend, I had another bout of intestinal, slight intestinal blockage. And so I ended up in the hospital for a few days. So, here I am though. And that's part of my story. That's part of my journey. And that's part of my tenacity, too. Right? Is you make it through. And even though, you know, I don't expect these things to happen. And so I don't fear that they're going to happen. Right? It's just they've been a part of my life. And so you go through the motions is what happens. And so, you know, people might say, "Oh my gosh, there's like trauma that exists there. There's that, you know, bodily trauma." Well, there might be some of that. But it's how you, I think it's your mindset, too. It's that higher power that you just trust and have faith in. Or that is. And quite frankly, that's kind of part of my makeup. And so just organically, that's who I am. You know, I love moving forward, but I also love bringing what I learned with me in regards to that wisdom. So, you know, I grew up predominantly, you know, in California. So by a single mom, you know, my younger childhood was a little bit more tumultuous. Because my parents were young, they were like, "Hey, grandparents can take the kids for a little while for a few years." So spent a few years with grandparents and then with my dad. And it wasn't the nicest of guys. And so I was really excited to get away from him, you know. And so when I got to live with my mom at 10, starting at 10 through the rest of the duration of, like, you know, before I'd go out, went off to college, it was like, "Okay, yeah, let's do this mom." And so she was like, "Hey, you know what? I'll give you all the freedom you need to learn to live, to do what you need to do, but know that there are consequences to behavior. You'll learn from that." And she did. She trusted me. She gave me a lot of freedom to do what I wanted to do. Did I look back and say, "Did I make some missteps?" Of course, we all do. And was I a normal teenager? Absolutely. Or whatever you want to term normal, right? So it's like, was I one of those teenagers that like to have fun, but also did my school work because I knew my mom would hold me to task like she would, there are consequences. And she said, "You know, I'm not going to bail you out. If you get yourself into trouble, you got to figure out a way out of that." So anyway, I went off to Berkeley. Yes, I got into college and I went off to Berkeley. And part of that was, what am I going to do next? Like, how do I step onto this campus and not feel anonymous, right? Because at the time, there were about, I don't know, 3,000 people in my city that I lived in and there were 45,000, 46,000 people on the UC Berkeley campus at the time. So I felt kind of lost and anonymous and you know, like, how am I going to fit in here? So it was on the search. And guess what, Joe? I went to ROTC first and I was like, "Yeah, maybe this is it. Maybe that's where I belong." And I was like, "No, I tried it for a couple of weeks." And I'm like, "No, I don't think that's it." Then I joined a writing group and I was like, "Yeah, this is okay. I was always pretty good at writing." And I declared my major as psychology and then went on to English. And then I joined this sorority. And that was really a lot of fun. We did a lot of philanthropy, a lot of leadership. I became sorority president. So with that said, I just went on to do some, a lot of leadership things, right? And I got my masters in human services. So I worked in community a lot, growing communities, doing large community collaborations. And then I also wrote programs and a developed programs. And so I did that with my master's degree. And then I got my doctoral degree in clinical psych. And so I started working in locked facilities and psychiatric facilities, assessing people who were homicidal, suicidal and gravely disabled every day for multiple years. And I started, I became a manager of a division. When we moved in Sacramento, then I started running three departments in another hospital as a director. So there's been a lot of evolution to my personal and professional growth. I was a military spouse, a Marine Corps spouse for 21 years, till my husband retired. And now we've landed ourselves in Northern Virginia where he works out of DC. And I own my own business called Corps Women. Wow. Wow, what a windy road. Yeah, yeah. It's like, you know what? The whole theme to that, Joe, is that core. You know, it's what's in your core. What's in you innately? What's in you? What are some of the things that you've learned along the way? And core isn't just the ORE. It's K-O-R-E. And so it's how do we, as we move through the world, how do we kinetically connect? As human beings? And that's something that I know is important to you. And it's important to me as well. So how do we get connected with each other? How do we organically learn from one another? How do we reshape our lives through diverse interaction? And there's a lot of diversity, you know, with all of us, right? And even if you look at my background, you know, I am Filipino, I am Hispanic, I am Armenian, and I'm European. And so my dad, you know, my grandfather came from the Philippines and my great-grandparents on the other side came from Armenia. And, you know, so there's just a lot of diversity in me and around me. And so that, you know, that are reshaping our lives through diverse interaction is very meaningful to me. And that's why that's there in core. And then the E is how do we empower each other? How do we embrace each other, empower each other and lift each other up? And I think that's exactly what you do, Joe, and that's what I try and do without community as well. Hey, a quick pause before we continue. If you ever felt like you're doing a lot, but still wondering if you're doing the right things, I wrote a book for you. Better has no finish line is about the lifelong pursuit of self-mastery and leadership, not hustle culture, not shortcuts, and definitely not perfection. It's built around waypoints, intentional moments to pause, reflect, and recalibrate, because growth doesn't happen all at once. It happens in seasons. This book is for leaders, professionals, parents, coaches, anyone trying to steward their time, energy, and influence with more intention. If you're ready to stop chasing arrival and start focusing on who you're becoming, you can find better has no finish line wherever books are sold, or learn more at waypointbetter.com. And now back to the show. - Yeah, I appreciate that. Yeah, and I love that. And as many years as I've known you, I don't think I knew a course to enforce this though, so I'm grateful to learn that. I had a question, you talked about your childhood, and I would say that most people would consider that a very diverse approach, a very different approach to parenting the way your mother gave you some of that autonomy, but at the same time, the accountability. Because what I've seen is oftentimes that the either autonomy, but not enough accountability, and just kind of like laissez-faire, like go do whatever you're gonna do, and it's almost like we have a lack of connection there. Or there's way more of the snowplow parenting, or helicopter parenting, you know, and then it's really involved in every single thing that's going on. The way that you were raised and experiences you had, how does that shape how you look at things now? I love that question. And you know, when I look at things now, it's, you know, there's such a contrast because I grew up in the '80s, and during the '80s, we were latchkey kids. There was, you know, divorce rates were increasing significantly. You know, here's the other thing, Joe. I ended up, my grandparents on my maternal side, they said, you know, we want these kids, all of our grandkids to have really good education. And so at that time, my grandparents were like, well, we're gonna pay for all of our grandkids to go to private school. And so we ended up going to private school from fifth to eighth grade. And it was a great foundation. We went to a Catholic school, and I would say that foundation really helped support our ability to create our own values, right? And the Catholic school that I went through, I would say, you know, coming from the place where I came from Santa Cruz, California was pretty liberal, right? And I wouldn't say that the Catholic school was highly strict. Yeah, they were strict, but they weren't like, you know, there was no corporal punishment. They, my parents did sign a, you know, a slip saying, you cannot eat our children. (laughs) Well, sorry, that's not okay. You know, so, and they really didn't do things like that, but there were rules. And even starting from early on, that early on, I knew that, you know, there were rules, there were rules that I had to follow. And so that gave me a great foundation. And I think that whether it come from a school, whether it come from a grandparent, and even going further back when my grandparents, you know, raised me for three or four years, you know, I looked back at my grandparents, and my grandmother had an eighth grade education. My grandfather had a high school education, but they were, when I looked at them, I thought they were highly successful people. They didn't have bills, they bought new cars, they paid them off, they worked in canneries. And my grandfather ended up getting jobs where in those canneries where he was, you know, asked to go down to Mexico and start new factories over there and help them build those factories over there in regards to bringing the people together, training those folks, building leadership. And so they, you know, own their house in California, and they were the hub of the family. And, you know, Christmas is Easter, whatever you celebrate, like those were our celebrations, and my family came together. So there was a lot of that family connection with that part of my family, which was really nice. So all those different things when I reflect on, then and now parenting, you know, how I was brought up, how that foundation was created in my life. There were some really special people in my life. It took kind of a tribe, right? To build that foundation for these kids in the family. And so with that said, I was very fortunate to have every single one of those people in my life. And although my mom raised me from 10 to 18, and she gave me that freedom, those foundational aspects of my life were very, very formative. So. - Yeah, I think it's, that's a great add on to the story because, you know, I think people can take from the 10 to 18 part and be like, all right, well, that's an experimental way to do it. But, but you're, you know, to have that foundation first and really have that self accountability in ways, because when you talk about rules, I think some people don't value the reason behind rules. And I'll be honest, there's gonna be some times where if I don't understand the rule, I may go ahead and, I'm not, I'm not always 100% a rule follower, but, but I think understanding the purpose behind rules and there's structure and how that, you know, almost like, even the social contracts we write with each other, that, you know, you're not gonna do this. And I'm expecting you not to do this so that we can have a safe community, you know? And then there's times where, where I'm sure from your clinical background that people don't have maybe the concept of those, and maybe that's what, you know, and it kind of, it's a whole different ballpark now. If you don't have the concept of like, hey, these social contracts, 'cause I share what this often is like, it's only takes one person to not obey the social contracts that we all, you know, have expectations of. Like if I'm driving down the road, I expect people are gonna do their best to try to not hit me, you know? (laughs) You know, things like that, you know, you have these social contracts. And I think that's why a lot of people get so upset when there is like an instance of like some type of road rage or something like that, because it's like, hey, we're driving on a sting, you're supposed to be safe. I'm gonna be safe. I'm trying to protect you, you protect me. You know, it's a contract and you're violating the contract. So I guess I share all that because love to hear like your thoughts on that piece with like, how do you, what experience you have with maybe people in through your work? Maybe that don't really have that, and what does that look like? - Oh, such a good question. But I do wanna go back, if you don't mind, but I go back to that 10 to 18 years, right? So part of the influence there too, in regards to what you're talking about, the social contracts. So, you know, I learned about that. You know, I learned about what those social contracts were early on, right? And there were some of that conditioning too. So I had a father who was highly abusive. And so, and he was extremely strict. And so he, you know, you get home and you don't get in the street and you don't do, you know, A, B and C. And, you know, I played sports when I was growing up and you get up and, you know, there's no crying. You just get up, right? So it's like there was that toughness, right? And so, and then my mother, on the other hand, she wasn't, you know, abusive at all. It was, I knew her and what she wanted though, right? So I learned what she needed from me. And so I gave her what she needed to be able to give me that freedom, so she could trust me, right? So whether or not it was cleaning the house or whether or not it was doing my homework, whether it was not it was going to school. She even said, if you want to call out on a date, we sounded a lot alike. You know, when I was growing up and she said, if you want to call out of school, you better call out of school because, and you can say it's me and she's like, but here's the thing. If you forget, they're gonna be consequences. If you, in regard, (laughs) 'cause they're gonna be calling me. I don't want them to call me. Granted, I want you to go to school, but hey, if you're not feeling well and you call out of school, go ahead, but you better make sure that you do it. And my mom just gave me so much freedom and she was a single mom. She worked. I think that she just didn't want to put so many rules on me and restrict me because she felt that way growing up. She felt there were a lot of rules on her and she was very restricted. And so anyway, yeah, with that said, with your question and that those social comments, contracts. I love the way you put that because there are those social contracts that we have. They're those givens, right? That you know, we want to be kind. We want to be you know, we want to obey the rules and want to do that all these different things And I think that when you look at human beings from a clinical perspective, I'm very much I don't know if you know who Alfred Adler is. Yeah, okay, so Alfred Adler was one of the He's a modern psychologist. He was the first modern psychologist. He kind of separated from Freud and said, you know, there's so much more to the human being and how they function. It's not just all subconscious, right? And so he said, you know, there are social factors. There's sense of belonging that people need to be part of a community And so I'm very much an Larian and that's how I practice and that's how I see the world, right? Like people want to be long and yet There's that road behavior that's that that that behavior where people don't apply those social contracts, right? And when you look at that from a clinical perspective, you look at it from well is that Is that behavior part of their personality? Is that part of their social upbringing and social functioning and the people that are around them? Is that part of their own health and wellness meaning your mental health, your physical health? What are their, you know, their presenting symptoms? How are they presenting right now? What is their behavior right now? And also a big part of that is their personality. What is their personality? And that's a that's a whole different concept between house, you know, just Let's say mental health and then you look at personality, right? So personality is part of that full makeup. So what is that personality? Your personality might be a little different than my personality. My personality is significantly different than let's say the president, right? So it's like there's just there's just different personality types. So when you look at those personality types, there are certain elements that That define those personalities so to speak, right? So when I look at people, I don't look at them from just one aspect that might influence that behavior or might influence why they're not adhering to those social contracts, but they're multiple factors. So somebody might say, well, you know, it's just that they're acting out or that they're doing A/C or you know what? My kids doing that because, you know, he's got the same thing that this kid's got over here. And I don't see it that way. So that's not how my brain works from a clinical perspective. I can't just make that broad, you know, judgment and say, oh, yeah, that must be it. You know, because I'm looking at multiple factors that might influence that behavior. Maybe that person is on the road who's being like, you know, impulsive. That's not paying attention. That's not looking out for your well-being or my well-being because they've had a really bad day. They're not, they're being impulsive. They're not, you know, that could be part of their personality makeup. You know, it could be that it could be a social factor that's influencing them that day. So there's multiple things that are taking place within a human being's functioning that I look at and not just judge it on one variable. Yeah, I think that that approach, although very difficult, is the most effective approach. Because, you know, a lot of times I think we do this pretty often. Like, is that a fundamental attribution error? Like we automatically assume that, you know, other people have character flaws when they do stuff, but we do the exact same thing. We're like, oh, there's a reason for why I'm doing it, right? And especially in like leadership roles or even in a marriage, you've been married for so many years. You're still like kind of can try to put a broad stroke of why maybe you're significant other did something. Oh, it's just just respected me. Or they're, you know, they didn't care. I was like, well, there's probably like 12 different factors that led to that thing. Could have been some miscommunication. Maybe they also had a bad day at work. Their personality might also be like, not maybe like a little not worried about the details. You know, maybe they're, you know, and it's all those things at once. And then like we kind of interpret it as some major slight on ourselves. But in reality, there's like so many other factors in there. And it's not really all about you yourself. You know, I've seen that a lot too. I love that, Joe. You know, when you're talking about relationships, that's so on point. You know, it's so significant that you say it's not about, it's not about us, right? Now, there's a little portion where, you know, we're influencing to maybe a certain degree of that behavior because of our our response or reaction to a given set of elements or factors, right? Or variables that influence A, B or C. So here's the thing. You're absolutely right. Like just take my husband and I, for instance, we met at 17. Okay. And we do grow, you know, we do grow up. We learn the influences that we have in our life. My husband, you know, his personality was significantly different than my personality. He was a bit more. I don't want to use the term "rigin", but there's just a lot more set boundaries for him, right? And so he looked at detail. He's a math person. So he looked at, you know, the detail of an equation. He looked at the detail of the equation of a relationship. And that's how he looked at the world, right? And so that's, you know, a little different. I'm a little bit more soft. I look at, you know, well, maybe it's something influencing their behavior. That's not just A, B or black and white. It's there's some gray in there as well, right? And there's multiple factors. And so over time, as a couple, we really needed to understand each other in that way, right? Because it wasn't just about me. It was about him and the way that he saw the world, that he saw it from a different equation, so to speak, right? And the way that I was raised, I had that fluidity of being able to actually lead my own path, be able to have the freedom to choose whether or not I did A, B or C. And if I had a misstep, I had to correct myself. So we both have different leadership styles. But in the end, as we've grown, we've come closer and closer and closer to the middle of reaching that those styles because, because we learned more together, right? And that's what's great about relationships is they're going to crumble and disintegrate because you're not going to give them the chance to come together to the middle, more to the middle, and learn about each other, right? And be able to understand this person's functioning and my functioning. And sometimes yes, the communication does get hard. And I go back and revert to that 17 year old and go forget it then. You know, okay, I just need a breather. I just need a break because this is hard today, right? Just understanding you. And yet, and yet, and he does the same. And he's like, oh God, or, you know, and yet we still know that that foundation is we love each other. We're going to stick it out now. No, I would say if there's abuse in a relationship, that's a different story. That's a completely different story. But with our relationship having these intercom sees these differences, it's worth working out. It's worth understanding. And that's like any good leader. It's why are we different? How are we functioning differently? But how can we innovate, create, you know, meet the mission of a company together more effectively when we have a better understanding of one another? Hey, fam, just a short break for our sponsors. Are you retiring or separating from the military soon? Looking for an alternative to veterans group life insurance or VGLI reach out to Dan Guzman life solutions. Dan is a 27 year United States Air Force veteran and a retired command chief. After a lifetime of service, Dan's mission is simple. Protect yours. Has an independent life insurance producer licensed across multiple states Dan specializes in helping military families find smart, affordable term life alternatives to VGLI and insurance policies that fit your life and your budget. If you want covers that make sense, reach out today at Dan Guzman life solutions.com and that link will be in the show notes. Now back to the show. Right. Yeah. And we pivoted a little bit to relationships and the conversation which I absolutely love and to me, leadership is about relationships is about, you know, but in the home life, you know, what I've seen that typically leads to immediate like negative results, right? Like is when people get into a relationship and their intention is to be the exact same person they are just with somebody else, you know, and it's like, well, that might work with boyfriend girlfriend or, you know, whatever relationship before marriage, but when you can talk marriage and you're committed to a marriage, you are also committing to the fact that you're not going to be the same person anymore. You're going to be aligned with somebody else, you know, and you just still have your foundational principles of who you are. And I by no means as saying that when you go into relationship, you should just forget who you are and, you know, be committed to changing to what the other person wants. That is not what I'm saying. I'm saying both people need to come into the relationship understanding that the people they were before the relationship aren't going to be the same people they were once they're in a relationship if they actually want to make that relationship succeed because it's the same thing what leadership follower relationships. It's like the lead sometimes leaders will come in and be like, everybody has to adapt to me. I'm like, all right. Let me know how that goes because having that very self-absorbed way of, I'm just going to be me and everybody has to adjust to me if it's a leader follow a relationship or a husband/wife relationship marriage type situation. I just see less than desire to fix on the other side of that. Yeah, so true. Okay, so let me go back to what you said about principles. Okay, so I think that is like a foundational thing. Like we hold on to those principles not to say that those principles aren't going to flux or change or you know kind of move in different directions because of our experiences and what we've been exposed to in the world over time. I think that I'm going to use myself as an example. I grew up in a very diverse family and my mom allowed me a lot of freedom. So I would say that she was a pretty liberal mother. And yet she was that way because she said, I believe that you have the ability to learn and to even if you make a mistake, you can come back and correct that self correct. And I want to put that trust in you to be able to do that. And I really really admire her for doing that because a lot of parents would be scared would be scared to allow their kids to do that. And that's why they hold on so tight and become those no-plow parents that those you know those parents that just want to hold on tight and rescue their kids right. And yet my mom was like, well I could rescue you. But what good is that going to do me and what good is that going to do you when you get out into the world and you can't get back up. And so she knew that but it was again difficult for her and then her personality played a role in that too in regards to you know what she did and did not want to do her kids at that time because she was also a young mom you know and it wasn't intentional. It's just part of her personality makeup like I'm going to go have fun and these kids are going to go have fun too right. So she was a young mom and so those principles as we grow they start to kind of you adapt with you right. And so based on those experiences that you've had like I did not stay in my small beach town. I went off to college which influenced and what I saw what I did. I learned from educators. I learned from those who were in the different spiritual realm. I learned from those that were just in my jobs right even in my job at the time going to Cal. I worked under cover security in the student union. So I walked around catching shoplifters right and my boss was a woman and she taught me how to be a leader she said summer I am going to promote you to supervisor because I think you have that potential. She's like but one of the things that you know I want everybody to learn especially those that are in a leadership role is how do you break down those walls so that folks around you can hear what you have to say that they're not resistant because there's this ego or power differential right. And I really remember that I remember that throughout my years of leadership because I thought how do I instead of coming off in a way that are going to immediately put up walls how can I break down those walls so we can work better together what does that look like. And at the time I had that job the the majority of people that worked with me and maybe under me were met. And so how were they going to follow me as a woman in the 80s in the you know what I mean there was a different mindset back then. And so there was a big shift for me about how do I do this how do I work with men and women and break down those walls or those barriers and that that ego right so that we can get further and do better and really meet the mission of the company. So that was one of the things so as I said I used myself as an example the other things that you know that influence that are just again personality right personality is a big factor in relation to how we view the world how we function within the world and that's usually set at 18. You know there might be some you know some people that push back on that but I've looked at this over the decades and our personality usually doesn't change much at 18. Yeah the our behavior can change but our personality is pretty set so when you come into that relationship as you said those principles stay there but and the personality is pretty much that at 18 but here's the thing if you're willing to adapt if you are willing to let that ego go if you're willing you can still retain that personality you can still retain your values but it's how are you getting along what are the steps that you're taking to make a difference in that relationship that personal relationship your personal relationship whether you're dating whether you're married and then going through to leadership roles right how do you do that in leadership roles and I believe show that every single person is a leader whether or not you enter a company on your first day to somebody that's been there for 30 or 40 years you are a leader but you may not recognize yet your skill set so how do we help people understand and recognize their skill set to become the best leader that they can be to really shine in their jobs in a company where they feel good about their position and they feel a sense of belonging with community because they're able to teach other people you know show raise up other people and guess what share what they know with other people without that resistance right so how does that happen and I'm going to set this back to you what have you seen in regards to ego being a part of the wall that really separates us from being able to work more effectively together to grow leaders yeah I love that question and and you know that idea that everybody's a leader I've actually so I subscribe to that as well I believe that as well at minimum you're leading yourself but it's funny because I like in recent years I've seen some people that really push back on that you know and they're going off the marium webster definition of leadership right like so but I really appreciate your view on it because that is something different that I never considered although it's something that I'm definitely aligned with is you're you're you have the potential to be a leader because of the special gift that you were given whatever that might be right and maybe you never really you know use it because you don't have the opportunity the environment is not there you're not in an environment in which you can thrive I think that you know that's yeah that's a very profound way to look at it and I appreciate you sharing that as far as ego it's so funny because that's another thing that I find to be a little bit um polarizing the idea of ego and I know you you know you come from it with a very um you can come you can come from it with a very academic way of from your um clinical you know way of looking at ego I kind of look at it a little bit differently um than a lot of people I guess and I look at it as ego is not always a bad thing you know like there's even a book called excuse me a book written about ego is enemy and I was like I don't know if it's always I think an untamed ego could definitely be the enemy I personally feel like that you know having some of it could be very helpful in certain situations now as far as ego being untamed and being a barrier to people really being effective it's so funny that you asked that because I just finished a book um I really like Patrick Lentioni and um I just finished a book called the ideal team player and it was you know they always write it in fable I think he kind of writes it in fable because he's a believer and maybe and you know when he when you see um uh Jesus talking in parables I feel like he's like explaining it in a fable story of the principles and then they break it down but one thing that they're looking for the ideal team player was somebody that's humble that has that humility they're at three components humble hungry and people smart they really felt that they needed those three on any ideal team player because they felt like if you're missing one of those it's going to be a challenge whether that's now or later on the culture of what that they wanted on their team and they figured that the competency skills would come with if you picked the right people you know those will those will be there but um they were they were having a hard time discerning whether or not this person they wanted to bring onto their leadership team was humble because he was really good at making it seem that way right but they felt something was nagging at them and they couldn't figure it out um they knew that he was people smart because he was really good with people is at least when they saw almost like politician way of doing it uh and they knew that he was hungry but they weren't sure about the humble and the indicator that came was when they said hey go see Kim she'll take you to the next interview and he said oh who's Kim and they're like oh Kim is a receptionist that has been taking you around for the last three days he was like oh okay and then he walked off and it kind of bothered the person they're like well how could he not know her name after he's been like literally side by side with this lady for three days right and then they decided to bring Kim in And I was like, how do you feel about this candidate? And she's like, well, I don't want to say the negative about a person that might be on the team or it might even be my boss. So no, you're an integral part of this thing. What do you think? She's like, well, he doesn't talk to me at all. He, like, he doesn't even acknowledge things. Like, and then he asked me to charge his phone and I did. And he didn't even say thank you. I don't think. And if he did, it definitely wasn't like obvious to me, because I don't even remember if he said thank you. And they're like, oh, and you know, so that was just a huge indicator. And then of course, they did some more research, long story short, they realized that this is positional is huge for him. He doesn't really look at people that are in lower positions as he doesn't treat them as fairly or, you know, as equal. And I think I guess that long story is just to share that. For us, first of all, we need to see all people as people. You know, we have to see them from their personalities. I know we talked about that and give them the benefit of the doubt if they're doing something. Maybe that, you know, they're just have a different lens on than we do. But another piece of that is really creating that culture, creating that culture where everybody feels seeing her and understood and valued. Yeah. Absolutely. Because otherwise you're not going to get the gift that that person has because they're a male clerk or they're whatever position that you might feel like there's been you if you're a egotistical leader. You know, you'll miss out on all those contributions. You know, Joe, what a great story. I love those three variables. They were looking at hunger, humble or humility and people, you know, people support, right? And how do people come together? And so we're being that people connector. And that to me, extremely important, those three elements always have been. And even when I was the director for three different departments to for a hospital, one of the things I used to say and again, it aligns with what we're talking about here is that everybody's importance. Everybody is a leader and everybody's role in a company is that should be valued. And I say this and let me give you an example. So as somebody as a doctor who would teach folks in the front end of the hospital, how to do intake and assessments, we were the front end. So anybody walking in that door, whether or not they were having a good, a bad and most of the times they're not having a great day if they're coming into a psych hospital, right? There were were having to be empathic understanding calm because we don't want reactions based off of the feed that they might do based on our response to them. So the calm, how do we present in a calm way in that we can get the information that we need to be able to help take care of these folks, right? And if we didn't do that from the front and that, you know, things might crumble. However, they might crumble before that. Let me tell you why because we have people who do cleaning in a hospital. Now, if the cleaning isn't done in the hospital and things aren't picked up, things aren't put where they're supposed to be, if there aren't sharps, you know, needles and such, where they're supposed to be, guess what? We may lose our license. So if you think that those cleaning people aren't just as important as this doctor that's helping this unit, you know, with intake and assessment, absolutely. I don't know where you're coming from because in either position, they're extremely valued because we're adhering to state law, local law, regional law, to all these different things. And we all play a part in that, a big part in that. And so when I look at every person in a system, to me, they have value to me, they have, they have leadership skills. And so not everybody might see it that way, like this person, that was the example in the book, right? And unfortunately, there are a lot of, well, fortunately, unfortunately, you know, there are a lot of different variables that play a part in that. And again, we go back to conditioning, social influences, personality, you know, their own wellness, whether that's mental, physical. So they took the variables of hunger, humility, and people, you know, a people person, right? And so I take those elements and look at them from kind of that lay, lay those lay terms. But then also from a clinical perspective, I quickly can do in evaluation on whether or not that person is being a bit manipulative to be because he is positional and wants to get that job because it does give him that position, right? But is he going to be a great team player? Yeah. Right? And so, and we look at those other potentially clinical factors, such as personality. What is this personality? Is it such that he comes off great? You know, but 15 minutes later, it might look a little different in that 15 minutes, right? So is and or what happens behind the scene after he gets hired, which I consider that 15 minutes after that 15 minutes, right? So, um, yeah. So there's lots of variables that impact or influence our behavior. And how do we see through that? And so how do we see through that manipulation? How do we see through that? And I'm not saying all manipulation is bad. It's, it gets us, it's part of our makeup, right? We are manipulative as babies. So when we cry as babies, guess what? We usually tend to get picked up. We get picked up. And we want to result. Yeah. So we want to result, right? Dishuman beings. And so that's part of what we learn innately. And then conditioned. And then socially. And in other ways. And so, you know, it's, it's funny. This weekend, when I was in the hospital for this slight lockage, I said, my God, I am really conditioned. And I thought this to myself, you know, not to, you know, push back or not to, you know, do some advocating for myself. And I go, break that conditioning summer, stand up and push back. Because you need some help here. You need some additional help. And you need a specialist to come on board. So that's where I even have to have that self talk with myself, like break free from that conditioning to be able to advocate for yourself. And a lot of people don't because they are so stuck in that conditioning or that way of thinking, where I'm not supposed to, you know, ask those questions. They're the professional. You know, they know what they're talking about. But no, you've got that inner set of special skills. Use them. How do we harness them better as leaders? How do we bring that out of those people? Because they've got to. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. And man, I think we need to have a full follow on episode. Just to talk about, you know, like what we kind of ended on is like, how do you determine, especially if you're interviewing for talent to bring people into a culture that you shape to want to be a certain way, you know, what are some things you can do, ask and see. I just think that that would be such a fun conversation. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I really think that would be fun, especially coming from your clinical background and just seeing, you know, just even some tips because I would say that most hiring managers have no idea what they're looking for. They go through the road interview and then they end up with the person that's, you know, not right for your team causes all kind of disasters sometimes, you know, and also for the person themselves, they weren't a good fit for your team, you know, it's not good for them either. Even though they really want the job, maybe it's going to make their lives miserable. So I think that would be a great conversation. But really, I love this, this chat. And I think that, you know, in the end, if you're in a leadership role or position, your job is to create an environment where talent can thrive and not, you know, an environment where people are just like having to recover from you, you know, like to deal with you. And I think that is such an important thing. And I'd love to just offer somewhere as we wrap up because we're running out of time. And I know I could talk to you for hours. Like we could do a full three and a half hour Joe Rogan podcast. But I would love to give you an opportunity to share a little bit about, you know, how do people connect with you as well as I'd love for you to share some final perspectives or something that people get to kind of take away as a thought. Yeah. Okay. Well, they can get ahold of me on LinkedIn at Dr. Summer Watson PhD, MHH, MHH, PhD. So LinkedIn is where I hang out on social media. I love it. That's, I think that's where I met you, Joe. And so also at corewomen.com. And then as for, you know, to leave you with something, you know, just think about it. I absolutely, I have a friend who does us so well. Think about where you started. Think about when you started. What did that feel like? Did you feel anonymous? Did you feel scared? Did you feel like a lack of courage? Think about that first step that you took into courage that got you to where you are today. And think about those people that are starting today that maybe you can like lift up and help them step into their, into their courage because, you know, to fill anonymous doesn't feel good. But to be able to lift them up and show them that you care. And you want to support them to harness their skill set. That feels good. Wow, awesome. What a mic drop. So, thank you so much. I'm going to hit you up. We got to do this part two of this conversation and really get into that piece. I think that would be so helpful. And just so grateful for your time. I know, you know, you're so gracious with it. I know we've connected a couple of times over the last couple of weeks. And it's definitely brought a smile to my face. So thank you for all you do in your space and for being so willing to share some of your wisdom and knowledge with our listeners and to all of our listeners, as always, keep growing, keep inspiring and remember, better has no finish line. Thanks for tuning in and we pray this episode brought you value to continue your growth journey, visit waypointfront.com and we look forward to connecting with you.