Ep 5 - The Big Announcement with Leslie Early

Welcome to the Learning Journal. This is a podcast for anyone looking to transition into the Instructional Design field. I will be sharing my successes and failures as I try to break into Instructional Design from K12. I am your host, Erica Zimmer. Okay, welcome everyone to the Learning Journal. I am your host, Erica Zimmer, and today is a special day. First, I have the fabulous, Leslie early here from the podcast. That's awesome ID. She's not going to only share about her podcast, but talk about transitioning from teaching to Instructional Design because we both came from teaching and you did a really, really fabulous presentation at the Central Ohio ATD Emerging Professionals. I really wanted you to come on here because I know there's a lot of teachers that listen to this and I think you made some great points on that. But I think also a special day because I get to announce that I got a job. Yay! Congratulations. Thank you. The moment has arrived. I'm really, really excited to announce that I will be working for Cox Automotive as an Instructional Designer. I wanted you to be on here for this, Leslie, because I feel like you're one of the first piece people I met when I really started to dive deep into the job search, seriously, and we were put on a team together through Designed by Humanity and just have become friends and worked on projects and kind of been through this journey together. And you also landed a job within the last couple of weeks as well, so kind of like full circle that we're here together. Yes. And not only did I land a job, but like pretty much you gave me that you handed that job into me on a silver platter. And you were not giving yourself any credit at all. I just kind of pointed them in your direction because I knew you lived in the area that they were based in and you got the job. You did all the hard work. Well, I can still be very, I'm very grateful to you. So don't think I'll ever forget it because I won't. Well, and it's awesome. You started last week, right, and I am starting this week, so it's kind of cool to both be working in this. I know. It is interesting. It is interesting that, you know, you said we both kind of met in the summer and we were put on a team for Designed by Humanity. And that was kind of, I knew the end of my masters was coming up and like I had to get serious about the job search because I had kind of been putting it off like, oh, I'll wait till I finish my studies, right? So we were kind of, yeah, did go through this journey together and checked in with each other all the time, like, uh, how many, how many applications did you send out? Oh, my god, what a great process I have to admit. I am not missing having to wake up every day, looking at jobs, figuring out what applications to send out. I actually just shut off my, like, indeed, notifications and, like, LinkedIn job notifications and, um, you know, I'm enjoying, I'm enjoying a little bit of a, like, that low before the, you know, starting a job is obviously a lot of work and a high learning curve. But I've been enjoying that kind of quiet space in between. Did you take some time off between, like, stopping your other job and starting this one? A couple of days. So I finished my last job on Tuesday and then, you know, I took the rest of the week kind of just let myself transition and, you know, get excited for this and kind of rest up and, you know, as much as I'm going to miss my team that I worked with in education, ever since I kind of gave my notice, the sense of, like, peace came over me and I stopped having daily headaches. Right. That would be a sign. Yeah. So I felt the same way this weekend after my first week of, and then coming up on the weekend, I was like, wow, I really don't, like, there's some things I want to do and could be doing, but I don't have to be doing anything, like, I can really just have a weekend where I could just, like, sort of zone out, yeah. Yeah, it feels like, you know, it's a huge accomplishment and we should just enjoy it for a while. Definitely. Yeah. So, um, but I really want to talk about that presentation you gave. And maybe you can speak a little bit about that and what you talked about. Sure. So, actually, I mean, I have a tendency to go way back further in a story that I really need to, but I love your stories. Go for it. I was recommended by Jessica Ward sent me the link to even just apply for the ATD Emerging Professionals Showcase, essentially, is what it's called. Cool. So, at that time, I was like, I don't even know what I could talk about, but I had just done the networking event with you and Sharon, Chaden Glass as well. We did that. It was more focused on T-Sol rather than education generally. Yeah. So, we did that. And I said, oh, well, that actually, and I looked at some of Sharon's other videos and different things that she'd made. And I was like, actually, yeah, there is a lot of overlap, you know, of skills and things between, I originally pitched to do more of a T-Sol focus, but then I applied for that so far in advance. I think it was like six weeks, six to eight weeks in advance to what it actually was. That by the time we got into the showcase, I was like, message, like I showed up at the showcase, they showed the, what is that called? The program. Yeah. The program. Like, who each speaker is and what they're going to be talking about. And my topic was totally different than what I'd actually prepared. So, I was like, in the chat with Karen Orts, like, Kara, I did something different. What am I going to do? And she's like, it's fine. It was. I don't think any of us remembered anything in that. In the program? Yeah. Yeah. I don't think I was officially on the program. So, that was fine. You were one of the judges. I was supposed to be one of the judges, yeah. Yeah. So, what I ended up talking about was just more broadly sort of the overlapping skill sets of what teachers have and what instructional design hiring managers are looking for and let, you know, some of these things overlap. Obviously, they are two very different professions. And you can't go straight from being a teacher to being an instructional designer. But there are certain skills and certain aspects of being a teacher. That are immediately applicable to being an instructional designer. So, I kind of wanted to highlight those. Yeah. Talk about, like, and I think this is really important to talk about because I know I've heard throughout this journey. And you probably, it's a big reason why you did this is, like, a lot of teachers are going into instructional design right now, especially right now with COVID and how tough school is. And I know I've heard that that's a bad thing, like, almost, the industry almost sometimes frowns upon seeing teachers apply for it. And I haven't seen a job like this, but I've heard other people see job ads that say teachers do not apply. And I'm wondering, like, why do you think that is and what's going on there? I mean, I don't know for sure, but I kind of can speculate that I think that people who maybe have been in corporate, a corporate setting their whole life and don't have any experience in education, whether that's elementary or, you know, secondary or higher education, they really don't have a clear understanding of what teachers actually do. They probably only have recollection of being a student. So, you know, being a student, whether you're a kid, like young, or all the way up through college, you still don't really, you don't have a full picture of what it takes to be a teacher, right? And you can't. How could you, right? So I think that maybe people who don't have that experience just have a very, a very vague or sort of like fuzzy idea of what it takes to be a teacher and how a lot of the skills you have to develop as a teacher are very applicable to a lot of other jobs. I mean, you have to be detail oriented, you have to be a good communicator, you have to be a good time manager, like all of these project manager, like all of these different things that would make you successful in any environment. Right. Right. I think teaching is one of those really misunderstood professions and people think they understand it because they, they probably went through the system themselves or they have children in the system right now. And so they see these sort of outside perspectives in a way. But what happens under the hood and the teaching profession, as you and I know, it is so much work. It is like constant data analysis, constant collaboration with our stakeholders, which are students and parents and administrators in the community and the boards and like, it is really a tough job. And then to add on these other layers of with COVID and having watching, you know, I came from an environment I was watching teachers having to do both teaching in person and online simultaneously. And then it's just that's yeah. So, you know, I don't know if it's just sort of this misconception that teachers just don't, you know, have what it takes to maybe be successful and corporate that, you know, they don't understand how difficult corporate is and, you know, and granted, like I've only worked my entire life in either public education or nonprofits, so this is my first time in a real corporate setting and I will find out what it's like. Yeah. I can't wait to report back what it's like and, you know, compare the two down the road. You know, and I think you're right. Like what are some of the big things that stood out to you is like something that's transferable from the teaching profession to corporate, but we, but they call it something else in corporate. Yeah, so I mean, I think I had, I probably should have reviewed my slide deck here, but I think some of the big ones were like this, the term androgoji is like, like a very go to hot topic in, you know, instruction with that is, so essentially, androgoji is like a fancy word for, you know, adult learning theory. And this, in my studies, as I came across this in my master's program, it was emphasized that androgoji is very different from pedagogy and pedagogy, meaning supposedly the teaching of children, whereas androgoji means the teaching of adults. I have a couple of issues with this explanation or what I consider to be a false dichotomy is that most people don't consider the term pedagogy to mean the teaching of children. I mean, we use the term pedagogy in higher education as well. And pedagogy really just means what is the methodology that you're using to teach? So this could be many different things, but not necessarily attached to the teaching of children. And then, you know, conversely, androgoji would be adult learning theory or the teaching of adults, and that you should approach it differently, which I agree, I mean, I can agree to that. I mean, adults do have very specific things, or that they're looking for when they're trying to learn, I think, like they have to be self-motivated, it has to be immediately applicable to whatever job they're doing. And there's like five things, and they're kind of like missing me right now. But I mean, I get it, that that's a specific thing, but I don't think it's fair to say that teachers who teach children are not also trying to hit a lot of these things. So especially now with the Common Core standards that we have nationally, we're trying to raise students into adults who are self-directed, who know how to apply learning to whatever they're doing, you know, a lot of these same things, we're already trying to focus on in the classroom, no matter what the age of the students. So I don't think it's fair for people to go around saying pedagogy and angiagogy are these two completely different styles of teaching, I don't think they are, right, not as different as they're made out to be. Right, I would totally agree with you. And I also, you know, along this journey was like, well, that's, I guess that's this, you know, I would look at things that they would talk about, and I would be like, oh, I think we call this x in education, but I wasn't super confident about it. And then when you gave that presentation, I was like, okay, I'm not the only one that's seeing these like really deep connections between the two professions and how they come together. And I think someone had thrown up the question to you about what is the social motivation or something like that for, you know, like an adult, adults have this motivation, you know, to work and learn so that they could, you know, provide more for their family to advance in their career. And that's why they want to learn. And I remember thinking, well, children have social motivation as well, like keeping up with their peers, being able to play sports, getting into their, the college of choice or the profession of choice, like it's not the same, you're right, it's not financially tied, but it is tied to a social motivation. So yeah, I think there's, I think there's a lot of overlap in that sense in, in why teaching and ID kind of go together in a way. And that as a teacher, we just have to learn how to say things and do the things in the way that they say it and do with them. But we have the skill set and the knowledge set to be able to transition into that. Yeah. And I think I, there's a couple other things, but I wanted to go back to the question about motivation because I remember at the time, not because it was a spontaneous question. Yeah. So you don't have that much time to think about it. But a couple of people approached me after that on, you know, on LinkedIn and we were chatting about it. And the question of motivation is interesting because yes, in some ways, the motivation is different obviously for students who are children and adult learners. But we can also say not all adult learners are motivated by the same thing. That's real true. Not all adult learners are trying to make more money. And you know, even if they don't learn more, they can still make the same amount of money. So yeah, that's not a very good motivator. And extrinsic motivation doesn't really work for most people most of the time. It might work in the short term, but not in the long term. And that's true for adult and children. And the other thing is that somebody brought up is that people who have never been in a classroom and in education have no idea how difficult it is to reach an unmotivated learner, like an unmotivated adult in a corporate setting, I can see how that's like sort of like an annoyance, right? Like, it's annoying that you're not going to like get better at your job. But if you're a teacher in a classroom, the stakes are so much higher if you cannot get your learners to engage with the material to improve. And this was one of, and now that I'm thinking about this is one of the other points in my presentation is that teachers understand ROI, return on investment. Oh yeah. Yeah, this was a big one because if our learners are not showing like through the state standardized tests that they're improving and learning, teachers can lose their jobs. I mean, schools can lose their funding, so it's it's a high stakes for teachers and students to be constantly proving that these government dollars that are being invested into the public education system are being well spent. And rightfully so, I think there should be some accountability there, obviously. But I mean, at the same time, it's it's a very similar to a corporate setting. You have to prove that your learning initiatives, training initiatives are worth the money that the company's investing, right? So it's very similar. We just, we call it high stakes testing. We don't call it return on investment. Right. So. And when a company identifies an area of what needs training, they usually they try to pump a bunch of money into it to improve the, you know, to improve the, you know, the return on investment, the quality of work and, but in education, it's so the way we fund education. And we could talk, that's a whole other episode was fundamentally wrong. Like, you know, the poor neighborhoods obviously punish the most and that if you do poorly, you get less funding. That makes no sense to me at all. So yeah, the stakes are super high, not only for the teacher and their job and the school, but the student themselves being able to like be a productive functioning citizen on society. And honestly, I have read studies where there was some quote of only about, we have only about 40% control of what we can change for students learning ability where the other 60% is their environment that they live in. And they come to school with so much environmental trauma and baggage and difficulties that it is impossible. Like, how are you going to teach a student math when they're, you know, they watch their mother get beaten up and their father dragged off the jail this week and they're hungry because no one's able to feed them because there's so much craziness happening in their house right now. Like, you can't expect a child to learn. And so that's the kind of challenge though that I think people who are not an education don't understand. They don't understand. And this is why ultimately why I left education is because I mean, there was a situation in my classroom that I just, I decided, you know, this is to the emotional burden is just too high and I can't, I had to go through that situation lasted about 10 months until the end of the school year. And after that, I was just like, I don't think I'm cut out for this. I had a good run. I had 10 years in education, but this was just, yeah, if I encountered this situation again, I would not be able to handle it. So I was like, I have to take a step back and re-evaluate. And I think that's something that maybe people who have never been in that situation can fully appreciate. So. Yeah. So we've talked about some of the overlaps and kind of benefits of coming from the teaching profession to help set you up to transition to ID. Do you think there are any like pitfalls like, well, that might be difficult if you're, you know, if you use what you learned in teaching towards corporate. I have to think about this for a minute, but that's okay. You can always cut out the silence. Yeah, this was a hard one for me too, but I'm like, I wonder, you know, and this is kind of a weird surprise, but I think one of it could be advocating for the tools we need because in education, you don't, I mean, I was commenting to a friend earlier today about when I was setting up my stuff and we were texting and I said to her, I said, yeah, even last year, I had to like pay for my own mouse for my computer. Where here suddenly I know with my new job, I have a laptop and two monitors and a keyboard and a mouse and it's, and like, to me, that is like blows my mind that that's what they just give you. Yeah. And I worry about feeling like I can't advocate for the tools I need if I feel like there's a need. Yeah, that's true. I think the thing that's coming to my mind right now is maybe, and this could be like a double-edged sword, but that as a teacher, generally, you're sort of like an independent, you have a lot of independence in your own classroom, I think, I think within a certain boundary, obviously, you can't just do whatever the heck you want, but like, you have what you need to teach and you have how you handle your classroom and all of that, you are able to make those decisions for yourself and you don't really have to get a lot of input from like, unless you have like a co-teacher or something with you in the classroom. But you kind of can make all those decisions for yourself and set it up the way you like it for yourself. And I think when you get into a corporate setting, there is, there, you have to be a lot more willing to be flexible and cooperative and, you know, ultimately, it's changing into this client service-based mindset. So really, the customer is always right. So even though maybe you may think in your heart of hearts that, you know, you have a better way of doing something or there's a better tool to use or a better framework to use, it, at the end of the day, it's not your decision. Whereas in the classroom, at the end of the day, everything is ultimately your decision. So I think that will take a little bit of a shift. So just be willing to say, this is what the client wants, and maybe it's not the best thing, and we won't get the best results, but this is what they want. So I'm going to do my best within the guidelines that I'm given. So I think that might be a shift. Yeah, we're so used to controlling our own space in our classroom and being like the only adults often in that space and that we turn into these, like, kind of control-free a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. We're in charge of every thing, so we micromanage every little detail, and yeah, that can be a little tough, leaving that. The other thing I just thought of is the role of, like, mentoring and being mentored or coached and being coached in education, having a coach is almost seem like, if you have to work with a coach, that's considered a bad thing, and like, you've done something wrong. And educators don't often seek out coaching, well, one, they've never, they don't often have the opportunity to seek out coaching. And two, if a coach is sent their way, that means they're doing something wrong. Where I've noticed in just this, like, short phase of, like, kind of transitioning to corporate, people, like, seek mentoring and want to mentor. And it's just, like, this really, like, that's what you do. You get mentored if you want to grow and people are there willing to mentor you if you want to be mentored. And it's, it was a little shocking at first that I'll, like, how awesome is this, like, one, but that's just the norm in the business setting is like, you grow that way, and everybody knows that we're in education, everybody's kind of like the shut door in your own isolated silo. You may have, like, grade level teams or whatever, but usually you're working by yourself most of the day. And it's hard to let someone in to critique your work and you don't want to because you're being critiqued in every other facet of your job. I think that's maybe that's, yeah, sort of what I was talking about is you're so, you're so highly individualistic, I think, as a teacher, because, first of all, you're just too busy to collaborate. You're too busy trying to manage, micro manage your classroom, all the things you have to get done, all of your tasks, grating, oh my gosh. Um, data analysis of, like, past test scores so that you can prove them and coming up with your plans. And there's just not a lot of time for mentoring, even if that's available. And also, um, back to the high stakes, um, testing and all of these things, as I think you're right, is that it feels like, um, criticism and any criticism as a teacher makes you feel insecure because you're like, if I don't improve this, does that mean my, um, am I going to lose my job? You know, so it's, it's very stressful in that way. And I think you just start to distrust any sort of, like you said, like if you get a mentor, that means you're on probation almost, you know, so it's like not a good, good feeling. And, and, but the opposite of that, though, going into this, like, I've also been shocked, like getting into LinkedIn and how helpful and friendly and like, and just like generous everybody has been. It's like, I can't believe it. It's a night and day. I, I can either, I agree, I, I, I'm grateful and shocked. Like you just said about LinkedIn and the people I've met through LinkedIn and how much they're willing to, like, give up their secrets, you know, like, I don't even know how to explain it. They're just like, oh, yeah, this is how I do it. Let me show you. Here, here, I wrote, I'll have a whole lot on it, like, oh, thank you. Uh, yeah, and, and I wish it were more like that in education. But like you said, teachers are criticized, um, not only by their boss, and I think incorporate, if you're going to get, um, criticism or feedback, it's usually from your boss, right? But there's lots of bosses in education, there's, there's your direct boss, which is usually your principal or department head or someone. And then there's the parents who will be calling because each of, you know, it's hard to teach a classroom full of 20, 30, 40, depending on where you work, students, and have to give them each individualized attention and instruction on a daily basis. And parents want that, you know, their child is special to them, and they want their child to have that special, um, instruction, and then you go beyond that, you know, and then students complain, and then, you know, there's school boards and there's, um, you know, community and all that stuff, so it's a lot of work. Yeah. So I think though that this, again, this is like a double edged sword, this like extreme individualism of teachers, because I think for people transitioning into the corporate setting, you know, it, you've gone through the trial by fire, essentially, like, if you can make it in education, you know, I think that all of those skills, yeah, you have to adapt, you have to like become more of like, um, get more of like a customer service mindset, um, or sales person mindset, but that's okay. I think you can get that, um, yeah, but for people who are thinking of hiring teachers, just know that this person coming in is a one man band in, in, or one person, I should say it's more inclusive, but a one person band who can, you know, who can research, who can implement, who can analyze, who can do execute, who can do all of it, um, and do it fast and do it to a deadline, um, and, and who isn't afraid to maybe, I don't, I, you know, teachers are, it's a lifestyle. So like, you know, if I would not be surprised if a former teacher is an employee who will occasionally work overtime, occasionally work weekends, if they have to, if that's what it takes to meet a deadline, because that's just who we are at this point. I mean, that's, that's what you do, um, so my whole point is is that, yeah, there might be a little bit of a culture adjustment, but teachers are, are highly adaptive, um, self-motivated and goal-oriented, um, people, and I don't think that what they're, they're, they got into a corporate setting. So, right, they're used to doing everything all by now. Exactly. So it may be hard for them to ask for help, because there was no such thing as asking for help in education usually, like, everybody else was busy, who's going to help you. That's true. That's something to keep in mind. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so they may struggle with that. All right. This has been great, Leslie. Talked out of yourself. We could talk forever about it, and I think, I think we're going to continue talking about this. Um, I, I think there's so much to be said about transitioning from corporate, um, or from education to corporate, and it can be done, and we're proof that it can be done. Yeah. We're here. Um, so let's leave with, um, if someone coming from like K-12 education wants to transition to ID, where do you think they should start? I think the place to start, well, I, I really think joining LinkedIn and getting, and trying to connect with people on LinkedIn is a good idea, um, trying to join any sort of groups that you can, whether that's, I know, designed by humanity is huge at this point, um, but anything where you are trying to sort of get more personal in your networking, not just like sending messages through LinkedIn Messenger. Yeah. But the other thing I would say is try to start learning the tools, like start learning articulate storyline or captivate Camtasia, um, start learning about the, you know, Addy or, um, Sam or Dick and Carrie or any of these frameworks, at least, um, yep. And then use those tools in a portfolio. I think once you have a portfolio that demonstrates you have some sort of understanding or mastery of the tools and the basic theory. Yeah. People are much, um, less hesitant when they see that you come from education. Right. I agree. Portfolios, a game changer, and an absolute mess. Yeah. You get to have that. And it's a lot of work, but, you know, if you're learning the tools, you're building your portfolio. And there's lots of great resources out there that you can learn these tools and, and use to build a portfolio as well. Well, Leslie, this was great. It's always wonderful having you on and chatting with you and, um, get to see you. I haven't, we haven't been able to talk much lately. Yeah. So this was wonderful. And, um, I hope we get to continue this conversation in maybe another episode or something else that we do because I think it's really important. I agree. Oh, thank you for being. Oh, you're welcome. Thank you for asking. Thank you for having me. And how can people connect with you? Oh, so I'm on LinkedIn, just Leslie Early, early like in the morning, E-A-R-L-Y. And, um, I do have a portfolio if you want to take a look at it. It's LeslieEarlyDesign.com. That's pretty much it. Perfect. Yeah. And don't forget. Oh, yeah. Really awesome podcast. It's like my alter ego. Talk about, explain that. Yeah. So I have a podcast. It's just a fun little, um, a little thing where I get to talk to other instructional designers about something there, like jazzed up about an instructional design at the moment. It's called, that's awesome ID. And it is pretty awesome, y'all. She, like, she sucks. She has guests on that talk about, um, really cool stuff and important stuff to the instructional design field. And they share one thing or a couple of things that, um, is important to them. So awesome. Well, thank you so much for being here. Yeah. Bye. Bye.