Ep. 49 Is It Just Us Or...Do We Need To Hear From The Teens With Guest Shonagh O' Sullivan

Oh, Devs, I was just reminiscing on our stay in Brafi House, Kentie Mayo. Was that not the best weekend ever? Oh, it was. I told you, Mayo was the best. And Brafi House is a four-star hotel, and it is family friendly as well. We love it. It has Astro for the children, Pitch and Port, Forest Walks, Fairy Trail, and a swimming pool. And I'm going to say it was the most comfortable that I've ever slept in by none. They have these new upgraded signature rooms, and then I reset my nervous system with the terrible suite with the outdoor area plunge, cold plunge for me, sauna, and a facial like stop. I was a new person, leave it. Oh, yeah, that place is absolutely unbelievable. And they have given us a cord for bed and reservations, which is just us for money off. Thank you, Brafi House Hotel, County Mayo for sponsoring this podcast. Welcome to the Is it Just Us podcast with me, Haley Rice, and me, Debbie Colanane. We'll bring you those real conversations you need to hear about the daily struggles and challenges you're having. We hope you enjoy. Let's dive in. Hello, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Is It Us Tours? And this week, we're so excited aren't we tips? We've got a guest again and a very special guest. We have Shona, I'll solve and hear guys. She's 17 year old young lady from Trilly, and we both know her mummy. So her mum is a psychotherapist and she's a trainer and she would have trained us in lots of different ways I suppose over the years. But Shona, we asked Shona to come on and talk to us about an incredibly important topic and something that like this is going to be a most listen for parents, I think. Shona bravely did a TED talk on the topic of behind the selfie, I believe, was the title right. So yes, we need to get into this kind of online world and we have the brain here of a young woman that will tell us the insights that I think parents will really, really value. So that's why we've got Shona here today. So thanks Shona for joining us. So much for having me. I'm so excited. Yeah, and you have your youngest ever guest on the podcast. And I think it's lovely to be given teenagers and adolescents a voice in the world and it's not like parents just thinking that they know what's going on for you because at the end of the day. And I've even seen a minor or even like 11 and 10. I don't even know what's going on in their little worlds in school. And we think that we do. So I think it's amazing to be able to hear straight from the horses mouth as they say what actually is going on. Inside teenage circles and how difficult it can be. And I think you voice it very bravely and so succinctly and you're such a good speaker as well. So yeah, tell us how this all came about for you. A TED talk at 17 I mean, come on. I actually started with an English essay. I did an English essay on what made us happy. And I suppose I've always had a passion for speaking, but that kind of would have never really been, I suppose accepted among the whole two group, the teenagers to talk like that would have never been a thing really. And I suppose I was in, you know, I was in transition. No, I was in junior sector. So I had just done my marks. And there's this thing called Snapchat, the most short most parents know what that is. Probably number one worst enemy. It's mine anyway. But there was this group chat and there was about 300 people. In this group chat and I was asked a so called friends house and unfortunately she had took a picture of me getting changed. And this picture was sent into this group chat and from then on, I had said to my mom, that's it. Like this cannot go on. Like the amount of people, the amount of young girls that this is happening to I was so, so embarrassed, but I had no reason to be embarrassed. That girl should have been embarrassed. The people who screen shot it, it should have been embarrassed. You know, and they all got in trouble for that. Because there's a great system in there called, Coco's law. But I suppose it's not nice. It's horrible to have to go through something like that to realize that teenagers. There's no idea the damage that they cause within themselves and to other people. You know, there's never going to be there's never going to be a world where there's no mean people. You're always going to come across mean people. But you as a person can be kind to everyone and you make a difference yourself then. Even when you don't want to be kind. There is a lot of pressure isn't there in peer pressure and the point is that that's that for sure. I'm sure they were being hit areas and in with the crowd. And you like you can get sucked into that as well. Can't you and forget that it's at the cost of somebody else's mental health. And you know, the thing about it is I kind of I didn't think about how how did I feel. I thought about how did everybody else feel. And I think that's when I realized it doesn't matter what the people feel. It was me that had to experience this. I should be the one who's angry and obsessed. But I was worried about what everybody else would feel if they got in trouble. Oh, that's very powerful. If they got in trouble, if I tell what's going to happen. And that I can guarantee you that is a massive thing with so many people and that's why they don't say it. I've goosebumps when you said that. I think that's hitting the nail on the head. And like it's the reason why I suppose teens don't go to their parents or don't tell them if they don't kind of voice. I'm afraid about this group or this thing that's happening in our group. Like so it's all kept kind of within the secrecy for fear. And that was one of them alive. Oh my gosh. Like keeping that inside you and not telling someone, not making it very clear to the other teenagers that this is wrong. So they know it's wrong. But sometimes it needs to be someone who's older with authority that actually tells them this is very, very wrong. So you had to be the kind of whistleblower in that group of like, I'm going to want that says it guys like and I'm not going to stand for this. And it was awful being that it was awful because of course I got the backlash. And then I said to my mom, I said, well, I've done it now. Let's go bigger. Let's go bigger. Let's let's go bigger and let's tell the truth. Let's let all the secrets out. Let's let it all out and say it for what it is because parents, of course, like they see. When I mean like tiny, tiny, tiny bits of it, like tiny, they don't see the full. I don't even think the teenagers themselves see the full. Like I probably don't even see the full and I'm still learning about it and I'm still trying to figure out what way I can go about this. Do you know? And I suppose it's a massive thing that's constantly being talked about. But there's still no change. And talk to us about because you mentioned Coco's law there and that I know there was a lot of talk about it when it came in first. And how were you able to utilize that in trying to get some justice for yourself around this happening? So originally I didn't think that it was going to go that far because there was no like I was only getting changed. There was no. I suppose I didn't think that it came under the law. But it did. So once it was reported, I kind of had to let it to them then if that makes that makes sense. And they don't they dealt with it and they dealt with it very professionally. They dealt with it very good. I have not seen the picture since so. Great. So I have. So they were able to remove the picture from whoever did have it. And I think for the people that they didn't get around to probably got very scared. So they deleted it then. Yeah. Yeah, you would. So it's job in that way. And 100% and if there's anyone out there who didn't tell and there is a picture out there of anything like that. Like do tell because even though. It might not be what you want to do. They will get rid of this. Yeah. You know, And it's very important to know that. When you said just out group with 300. Yeah. I was like, how is that even a group like that's that's like a massive like a whole school. There is this. So that would have been tree schools and truly who it would have been a JC party. So a junior set party. Everybody was in it. Okay, we're going to go here to celebrate our junior cert. And I actually. I think everyone taught that I wasn't going to go. I went. Thank you for your. I went. I went because I said to my mom said, if I don't go, it's going to be. I was going to look like I did something wrong. I did nothing wrong. I'm still going to go. - And did you find that hard? - Oh very hard. I didn't even want to get out of the car. - I know, I know. 'Cause like, I don't even. - Like I did not want to get out of the car. My mom was like, "You're here and out. "People know you're here." So you might as well go in. So I did go in and obviously it looked like it didn't bother me in the slightest, but that's the thing. Inside, I was so anxious. I was so nervous, but they couldn't see that, that I could feed us. - And you've had to be so strong already to like deal with the emotions of that known of photos going around like that, then report it. And now you're going and pushing yourself to be strong to go in. And rightly so, go to the party if you want to show up that way and keep her as show-na. (laughing) Life of the teen. - I know. - That's incredible amount of. Like you're in your junior, you're third year at the time. - Yeah. - Yeah. - You're so young and you're dealing with all of that to be a guy who protects hisness for free. - It is, and thank God, you had the power inside yourself to be able to handle it like that. Like on the other side of the coin, we hear in us teenagers, there's a change in them. And you don't know what happened and they're just different and they've gone into themselves and they don't want to go places and we don't know why, but you're maybe it's just hormones and maybe it's this, but so often I'm sure it's because something like this has happened and you just want to curl up into a shell and you don't want to see anybody and you don't want to go outside the door. And it really adversely affects the teen when they don't tell as well. But like that, it's so hard to tell. Like you know, it's like snitches, good stitches and all this, like it's a massive thing even 'cause I've never used the or age as well. And like it's similar for the boys as well to not to be telling about different bits and pieces and they don't get knocked to two. But what would say for parents, what can we do or what do you think we can do about the form, which, and is it like, is it the social media? Is it the Snapchat, like I think Snapchat is a welcome disaster to be honest because if you're disappearing messages, anything can be said. There's no sort of commuppence on anything because it's just you behind the the little keyboard on your phone and just saying whatever the hell you want at all earthly hours of the night. So would you have any advice or tips that you think might protect teens? - Well, you have a phone. Everyone has, everyone has a phone, right? And it's always, sometimes a punishment can be, I'm gonna take your phone. Okay. The first thing I'd say is it's not the physical phone. It's what's inside us. Rice, it's the apps, it's your TikTok, it's your Snapchat. I'm not, I was not. I was the girl who had 800 notifications on Snapchat. Rice, that was me. I was her. I know what it's like to be her and now I know what it's like to not be her. Which one do I prefer? I prefer the one who's not her. Like, that is a lot of notifications. That is a lot of people, some of them I didn't even know. And some people are like, you don't know what you're talking about. I do know what I'm talking about because I was her. I've been on the both sides and it was very hard to come away from the other sides. So the only thing I would say is if you go in with the attitudes, that's it I'm taking the phone. Your head is demented from it. It's like you're not doing your homework, you're not doing what you need to be doing, your constantly scrubbed, that's gonna get you nowhere. If you sit them down and if you're on the same level and you say, I'm actually really worried about what's going on here. I know it might be hard to talk to me, but I am actually listening and I'm not gonna judge you. And I'm here to help you. And you're not in trouble. - If you just get that on a banner, that's such good words there, it's brilliant. - If you go in with the attitudes, that's it, it's a punishment. No, it shouldn't be a punishment because this is the life of a teenager. This is what we have to live with. This is what we have to try and manage, try and guide our way through this. And it's very hard. It is very, very hard. You know, I don't use it as my social media. I think a month ago, I didn't think I was deleted for a whole week to see what kind of way I would be without it. And it was so hard. It was like, it's an addiction. Social media is an addiction. You know, you scroll and often I'll notice that if I'm sad or if I'm anxious, where I'll go to is my phone. So instead of feeling what I need to feel, I'll suppress it and I'll scroll and guess the dopamine hit from my phone instead of working out what needs to be worked out. So then what'll happen, I'm sure so many teenagers can relate to this. Someone might say something in the kitchen at dinner time and I'll explode. - This resonates with us as well. (laughing) - Alex, yeah. I'll explode and the people who love me, the people who care for me and the people who have my back will guess the backlash, will guess what was said for maybe the people who don't like me from maybe the people who, you know, might be fearless of me or might not be happy themselves, they'll get it. And that's where an argument comes in place and that's it I'm taking your phone, that's not, do you know? It's very hard to try and come to common ground with a parent and team. It's very hard to try and, you know, for us, mom, dad, guardians, they're the bad guys. They don't, they don't understand, they don't, you know, they don't know what they're talking about, you know, they weren't living in the time we live in. But to be honest, they are, they're living in the time now, but they're just a different age. - Yeah, yes. Yeah, and if it can kind of come together on it a bit or if they can get some understanding because it is hard for us to understand as well. Like when you say 800 notifications, you were that girl, like what was that like? Like helping the parent listening, understanding what that's like to be in that world where there's 800, some people you don't know, notification. Like, like it was very, for me, it was like, a supposed sort of distraction. Okay, it was distracting me from what was going on in school, it was distracting me from maybe what was going on in my life at that time. But this getting, what I maybe needed from that, from what maybe I wasn't getting inside school or what I wasn't getting inside home or whatever, do you know? So it was very, it caused a lot of anxiety for me because I felt I needed to snap every single one of them back in order to keep this thing called a streak. - Oh yeah. - Rise. This whole streak thing disaster, that tiny little emoji caused so much anxiety for me. And I had to make sure they didn't run out. And if by chance my phone was taken away from me which would rarely happen, it would be like the end of the world was ending. It was ending, that's it. My life is done. - It's like control. Is it like control over something? - I would completely agree with you. And this is what I mean by it was an addiction because I could not let that streak go. I could not let it go. - The pressure then to reply to 800 people while you're kind of like you're trying to function in the world and do your homework or even like you're probably on your phone the whole time. I'm going, oh, I need to get back to this person. He's going back to. - What kind of screen time would you have, do you know? - Sheepers. - The time, it would have been maybe two 12 hours to 13 hours. - Oh my God. - Yeah. - That is lost. Now I think it's four hours, but I still go on Snapchat. I still, of course, go on my TikTok. Like that's what we do. You know, I'm not here saying, oh, I'm not going on any, of course I am, but I can manage it now. - Yeah. - You know, I can manage it all now. It doesn't cause anxiety for me anymore. I can see what it really is behind the streak. I can see why I needed to keep that because it felt like it was something that I just needed to do. And then I suppose I got the reality hit that, oh my God, I nearly wasted half my day. I wasted so much time that could have been put into something, for example, a TEDx stock. And that's what happened. - Oh, great. That brings us on to the TEDx. - Yeah. And like, realizing that it is a waste of time, and I think myself and Haley could take a lot from this conversation as well, because I wasted a lot of time on my phone. I'm sitting there not tuned into anybody and just doing scrollin through rubbish, but as grownups, I think we can catch ourselves somewhat and it's easier because like we're fully developed brains and we've lived experience in the world and we have all of these other things. So we're more able, I think, to catch ourselves with that. because it's much more difficult for the teen or adolescent 'cause like that's like this is your world because that's how you know it. - Yeah, you know, I mean like you were able to come out of that show now, which is I think is rare to be honest. Like right now there's how many thousands, millions of teenagers like a slave to the Snapchat street 'cause basically and angst, angst, angst, angst and kind of spend in 12 or 13 hours a day. And you've thankfully been able to go hold on a second and come out of that and you're managing it. You have that self-awareness, but so many of them don't. They don't have the help even to know that this isn't actually what good for me, you know? - And to be honest with you, like if it wasn't for my mom, I'd probably would still be there. I was so, I am so lucky to have an adult that I can trust and look to and that would tell me the truth, even when I don't want to hear it. - Yeah, yeah, that's important, isn't it? - Yeah, and that's why education and knowledge for parents is key in supporting the team through these transitions and with the phone use and even the Snapchat use and all of that as well. Because we just, we kind of ignorant to it if you don't have the app either, you don't know how it works. If I only know about streaks 'cause I Snapchat my nephews, that's the only people I really Snapchat. 'Cause that's the only way to contact the little shites, they won't reply to me and I'm like, yes. So I have to snap them. But we don't really use it as women in our forties, I suppose, like it's not something, it's not your goal too. So it's hard for us to understand. So I think we'll be getting it and to our Lordness and because what I know is me about Snapchat, actually I have a little notification there on my phone from it, it notifies even if nothing's happened. So it's like, oh this person, who I don't even know has put up a story and I'm like, I don't want to know about you. Why are you? - Just drawing your back in. - Draw on your back in all the time. So it's very addictive isn't it? And you only need to go in to have a look to see what's happened, but I can't imagine with all of the friends that you would have, oh my god. But anyway, tell us about behind the selfie and the Ted talk. - So behind the selfie came into place, I suppose over a long period of time, I didn't just pick up on more than go, right, that's it, here is behind the selfie. It didn't come about like that. It came about from the drips and draps of what I've experienced as a teenager. And what I feel other teenagers have experienced. So one of the main things I talked about was body image and how watching people on social media even sometimes feel that your body isn't perfect. And I can go into you, that's not just for girls, but it's also for boys too. And sometimes that's not really said. Like a boy body, I can go into you, it's there. You know, and it's very hard because you see these people. And even like once you see something, you've still seen it, even if it's once, you've seen it, it's there. And it's very hard to try and navigate. Well, if they look like that, then I need to look like that. And that's not true. And then of course, you've got your influencers who are like body positive and all of this. But sometimes what you see isn't the truth. It's not like it might look like the truth, but they're still doing it. Sometimes they're doing it for the right reasons. And sometimes they're doing it for likes, for followers, and which they will get because it looks real. So it's actually okay that I'm following her. It looks real. It's just so hard because as a teenager, looking in the mirror, as I said in my talk, like you feel like there's something wrong. Yeah. I'm not perfect. There is no such thing as perfect. No one is perfect. Nobody is perfect. Whether you're a size small, a size medium, a size large, a size extra small, does not make you perfect. It's a label. Who you are in size, that's what people want to see. Even maybe you don't think it, but that's what they want to see. You know, if you're a kind, nice person, that's what people are gonna see. And you'll have some people who are gonna obviously comment awful things, but that's because they've probably got so much hatred in size for themselves that they feel the need to take it out and other people. As I said, there's nothing you can do to stop that because people will always be mean. You'll always come across someone who's maybe musy, who's rouge, maybe having a bad day and you might get the backlash of it, but that doesn't mean you can't be kind. Yeah. That doesn't mean you can't smile and say, have a nice day. Yeah, it's such a difficult word to navigate. And you're right, like what is behind the selfie is often people who aren't happy or who are portraying something that isn't the truth, like you say. And it's like, we don't know, but it's, again, the teenager were drawn into that world of like perfection and selfies and even the skincare, the body image. So that's the route you went down for the talk. Which is just. And it was like, you know, I suppose it was kind of like, sometimes you'd have these big groups in school, right? It's always the popular groups, you know, the mean girl culture, but unfortunately, what nearly goes far is, and everyone once has been a mean girl. I know that I've been mean to the people because I didn't want the people to be mean to me. I was a part of the big group. I was a part of the girls who were popular, who were mean I was there, you know? And even though I might not have said anything, I said it in the stoppers. Unless it happened because I was so afraid that these girls were going to do the same thing to me. And you know what, in the end, they did. Yeah, they did. So even if I did stick up for the other people, I would have still gotten the backlash. So what I should have done is I should have stuck up for them. I should have said, hold on a second. This isn't right. Stop. But I didn't because I was so terrified that they were going to do the same to me. Yeah, but it's so hard because people like that, the popular people, they have a lot of power, they know how to play people. And they can be very manipulative and you just get sucked into it and you don't want to be the one that's standing out because you're scared too. So it's like, it's very hard. Like I definitely resonate with that. It definitely was part of some mean groups at some points, particularly through like second, third, fourth year. Yeah, you can find yourself a little bit more when you turn 17. I found that the hardest stage myself as a teenager. It was like 13, 14, 15, 16. Then I found it got a bit easier. It's a so much development happening and then you're all over the shop. You're going into the surgery. You're trying to find your crew, like humans are so tribal, we're trying to fit in. And it doesn't all deserve you. Yeah, yeah, your eyes. And I often, you know, I do say that transition year would either make or break you. Go on. Now this is good now for parents as well. Right. The transition year would either make or break you and transition year broke me, but it turned into something so much more beautiful. I made the decision to leave school, okay? And it was probably the hardest decision my life. And you know, there was many conversations had with my mom. Come on, we'll, you know, we'll go into school and we'll try and come up with a plan and we did that. We went into the school. There were so many plans put in place. But I still wasn't able to get in the door. I wasn't able to get out of the car and get into the door. I was back in the police school, called up onto my mom's leg. Oh no, please, I'll go into my room. I promise I promise I'll go into my room. You know, I promise I'm going to go into my room. I'm pleased, please, please. And, you know, I was still in school when I had done the TED Talk and they wouldn't share it. They wouldn't acknowledge it. They would not share it. They wouldn't, you know, if it was a science thing, they would have been to life's. But I told the truth and they didn't like that. They didn't like that. No, that's just, they did not like that. They did not like that. You know, my earheads, very nice man had said to me, congratulations, you've got a great future ahead of you. And when he said that to me in the corridor and I seen him walk away from me, I said to myself, "Yeah, you're right. I've got a great future." and it definitely isn't inside the school. - Wow. - And that was a good turning point. - I'm 100%. And I went home to my mom and I said, "Mom, I said I'm leaving." I'm leaving school, mom. And she turned around to me and she stopped. She was contemplating, so I was like, "She turned around." She said, "Shona, I've got your back." - Oh my God, I'm gonna cry now. (laughing) - You know, she said, "Shona, I've got your back." And that was it. I went upstairs. I looked at my uniform and the press and I said, "We last have never knew anyway." And that was gone. It was gone to charity. My books went to my neighbours and I left school and I'm doing my courses at my level six nearly done with CTC, actually. - I have a neuropeasic play skills. - Yeah. That's the one. And in September, I'm going into my nursing PFC. I've got my place. I'm looking forward to it. So I've took a longer route. But you know what? I'll get there. I'll get where I need to. - You're 17, you've talking. - You're what? - I'll go to time. - Know the time. I'll get where I need to get. And you know, this isn't me saying, "Oh, leave school if it's tough." Like if you can navigate as if you can manage it, Jesus finished school, get your leave and say it like 100%. But you know, there's only so much you can fit into a box and I did not fit into that box. So I just left and I've made my new box. - Give it to me. - Yeah. - Your own path now in front of you. And it's like listening to you talk. It like you're so articulate and clear and just full of wisdom. So like, "Chieppers, I'm not surprised. "Your mom was, yeah, I've got your back and let's do this." Got behind you, I know, because it makes sense, doesn't it? And it seems like it was really right for you. And like that, it's not right for everyone, but. - No, it's not. - While when your ghost there was really important. - And I didn't want to listen to it. Oh my God, I've shown you here in 50 or now. Come on, like you can, you know, you got your TYTY is over. You can still do it. No, I could do it. And if I do stay in school, I think the damage that would have been done to me as a person would have been fairly happy for me to try and fix that. So I knew to keep who I love, to keep this, I believe, you know, but able to speak about things that people aren't able to speak about. And even I'm actually okay with getting the backlash because I know I'm confident enough that I will get my message out there to parents, to people my age. And they'll be able to see it for what it is. And hopefully they'll be able, there'll be something that would be able to be done. Hopefully. - Hopefully. Do you know? - Yeah, no doubt. - You're helping people in what you're doing. There's no doubt about that at all. So it's nursing the next step. - Hopefully, yeah, it's always kind of something I've wanted to do. Do you know, I'm very like, I like to help people, you know? I like to help people. I like to care for people, especially when they're not able to care for themselves. So that is definitely something that I hope to love you to do. Yeah. - Yeah, that's amazing. And just for parents listening, like the lead insert is not to be at all at the end or like there are different routes that you can go through and still come out the other end with whatever your passion is. Like you can still study. Just not doing the lead insert doesn't mean that you have that you stop studying forever. I think sometimes that's sort of like, oh my god, if they don't finish school, they're fucked. They'll never do anything. They'll never run to think and ever do because they've no lead insert. They're like, yeah. - One second, there's about 47 million different routes that you can take into any career now, isn't there? And it's a fact and amazing. Because school does not suit everybody. - No, it doesn't. - And if it's really damaging your child's mental health and they're esteem and like crushing their soul and you're still forced in them to go, like you said, that's going to be counterproductive to them in the long run. - There was battles, many battles in my home. Shona, come on now. You're nearly half a full week. Get in the door. Get in the door, you know? And like it wasn't a case of this one time for a week and I decided I was leaving school. This went down from first year to fifth year. My absence was very high. Very high. I was sick, but I was not sick physically. I was sick from all the stuff that was going to be. - Yeah. - You know, the education side was never a problem. It was social side. - Yeah. And it sounds like actually this, like having this time now and like waiting to go to college or doing your course now, it's just gonna build you up. And it's actually been through so much. Like first to fifth year is a long time to be dealing with that level of stress and pressure and whatever anxiety, all the rest of it. So like gosh, actually you probably really needed to do that. And for the adults to get behind you on it as well as brilliant and to trust you. Because I suppose your mom had to trust you now that you would apply your best. - Yeah. - She did, she did. And like obviously I just have to work that a little bit to get my education. But I'm willing to do that because I know I will be able to do it. I've no doubts in my mind. - Absolutely. - I've no doubts in my mind. - I'd say you could do anything, show an listening to you, honestly. And the insight and the self-awareness you have, the emotional intelligence you have, the empathy and care you have for others and the bravery as well to stand up when everyone's following like a sheep in a pack is just going to take you so far. And it's worth more isn't it than a search with a few, I don't know, ABCs on it. You know, and getting that-- - H1's and H1's. - H1's and H1's and H1's and H1's. - I'm out of date with that. And there's a reason people still have dreams about their leaf in certain nightmares about it. - Yeah, I see a city nightmare. And it's, oh yeah. - So decisions were made and you're on a new path, which is amazing. - Absolutely. And you know, obviously the students and like those teachers who are faculty, I'm very aware of what's going on, amazing. And then you've got teachers who might know us, who might, you know, might be a bit old-fashioned about things. You know, and I'm going to be honest, all the money that was spent on the yonder pouches. - Yes. - And these yonder pouches that we put our phones into, you turn the door down to the teacher and the next thing the two pens is going and we pop it open. - Okay. - It's okay. - Why is it very easy to open? One slap off the wall and it's open. Okay? You think if you lock our phones away for what? Is it six hours, eight hours? That all of a sudden all the problems are going to go away and we're going to go home and we're not going to go home. Let's go. The damage is already done. That money could have went into resources. It could have went into days for the teachers to learn about what's going on in a teenager's life. It could have went into support groups for teenagers after school about Snapchat's TikTok anxiety. - Yeah. - That money could have went into something could have actually helped. - I know. - It's a broken pouches. - It didn't solve the issue. - It didn't get to the root of the problem. What do you think about the bands on the phones in other countries at the moment, like 16, no phone? - With their social media bands. - Yeah. - With their smartphones. - Sorry, it's smartphone. - Yeah. - It's 16. - Yeah. I think it's great. I think it's amazing for people who haven't had a phone. - I think. - I think if you were to say to a 16 year old in Ireland, who's had the phone, had the Snapchat, had the TikTok, like that said, you can't have it anymore. When I tell you it would be very hard for them, it would be very hard for them. But it also, possibly would have been the best thing that happened to them. - Yeah. - Because it needs to happen. - It needs to happen, but it wouldn't be easy. - No. - It's got a change here though. - It does. It does, but I also don't know, is it going to be, right, that's it, phones are gone until your 16, social media's gone until your 16. Because what happens at 17? What happens at 18? - Mm-hmm. - They have no experience and then, you know, it's very hard. It's very, you know, there's so many different arguments you can have on a slide. It's very hard to say, this is the right answer. This is the right answer. I definitely think it would be beneficial to have the line for people who may be a 13 who haven't experienced the social media sense. - Yeah. - It's kind of a lie. - It's a minor like 11 and 10. - Yeah. - Please, Lord, ring in the bell. - Yeah, I think I have the same time. - But at the same time, I always think you need to just keep, if it does happen, and I'm sure it will, they'll get Snapchat, they'll get whatever. I won't start talking to them about it. And I will try and understand it and try and, [BLANK_AUDIO] alongside and let them know that they see, you know, it's having that openness around it as well. And of course, when they get to that point too, they do need privacy from you. And they do need to have conversations with their friends that they're not going to tell you about. Of course, you're real adults or adults. But everything will be talking about. And of course, you're not going to tell everything, but it's just knowing that if something is really wobbly or something affects you badly that you can tell and you're not scared to, like you did with your mom and you were able to. And just with the school refusal, because obviously this is something that has been really prevalent for you for quite some time, which you have any insights from your perspective about what might help, what definitely didn't help, or any little tips. For me, like I would be very like, if I got in early enough before the crowds were in, like, I'd be able to kind of go to my locker, get something to drink in the canteen and meet my friends. That would often help. But then sometimes it wouldn't help. You know, this whole teacher, body system, like I'll pull you out of class to see how, no, you can't like pull me out of class in front of everyone. Everyone's going to know why you're pulling me out of class. You know, yeah. You know, can I just talk to Sean today for a second? It's not to talk to me about my science. It's not to talk to me about my maths. People know what you're talking to me about. And then I get asked, and I go, and why is she talking to you? Why is why why does she pull you out? That's not that definitely is not something. You know, if a teacher turns around and says, Sean, there's only chance you could say five minutes later after school and come to my classroom, no problem. Okay, so big difference. No problem. Nobody. Yeah, I forgot. I forgot my coffee book. I'm just going to run in and get us. No problem. Is there any chance you've come in five minutes early and then have a chat? You know, Sean, when you're going to the bathroom in math class, would you just pop down to me? Yeah, perfect. So we're just pretty. Yeah. Okay, what's really good, isn't it? Yeah, that is good. I mean, sometimes teachers think they're helping and they're actually not. And you know, there's good will behind us, but they're trying to be nice. And it's very hard to say, Miss, you're actually kind of embarrassing me. You know, it's very hard to say that. And you know, obviously, I never had to experience the whole goal on the bus for school and going into school. But I can guarantee you if I did experience that I would never get on the bus and I tell my mom, I went on the bus and I'd be at home. Do you know, for me, a bus was just not something. And I think my mom knew that as well. She's like, I have to drive this one to the door anyway. Or as she's not going in. Do you know, this one, I have to watch her go in the door. Or as she's not going to go in. Do you know, and I like, I was on my pain in my stomach. Oh, mom, you know, my period is very bad, mom, please. And if she'd ignore me, then I'd be up to the office either by mistake. I was wicked for it, constantly going home. But it was an escape. It was I have to get out of here. Something might have happened at lunch. And then when you stick up for yourself, it's not the worst thing you can do. But you would like girls are ruthless, ruthless. You know, I remember I was sitting inside the bathroom in the end stall and I turned to the side of the wall and my name was written on the wall with a horrendous name underneath it. And I have was just like, what did I do for that to be on the wall? And then I looked around it and there was so many other girls' names who were experiencing the same thing. And I knew it was. I knew exactly what it was. But I was too, like I was too scared to confront her. So you know what I did that evening? I went to the cinema with her. Okay. Do you know? Get that. You know? That's it's so, you know, it's very high to to try and I suppose be who you want to be. Yeah, you're self-preservation there as well. You know, and I remember when I was doing the TED Talk, she turned around to me and she said, oh, we're going to come and watch you. And this is the last time I risked them. And I said, well, if you come and watch me, you're probably going to wish you never did because a lot of the stuff in there is what you done to me. Okay. And that was the end of that. That was the first time and the last time I I stuck up for myself to her. And I will never have to do it again because she is now not a part of my life. And I have got my small group of friends who I adore, you know, who I adore. And they're actually older than me. And I've met them in a few of the courses that I've done. And I always said that my friends are probably going to be older than me because like I am a little bit older than what I think. You heard also. You know, mature maybe you've got self-awareness and maturity that a lot of teenagers don't have. Yeah. Are you younger than secondary school? Why would have been 13? Yeah. I've been 13, 14, 13. Yeah. The standard age, yeah, it wasn't that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What really striking me is like how obviously secondary school, school is about learning and education. But the impact of the social stuff and the social media stuff and the AI even and all of the kind of just the like it's following you into the toilet like it's everywhere that that impacted so greatly on like how anyone's learning anything or being able to regulate true the anxiety of like this I just saw this on the wall or this person isn't being nice to me. The home watch that impacts the learning in school and that's not really being addressed. Do you know? Or some other issues. And your teachers have wondered then why is the homework not done? Why do you not know this? Why do you not be in our shoes for about 5.6 seconds? Walk or walk. You know, you can't of course homework has to be done. Of course projects have to be done. Of course, but the way that has gone about it, detention, you know, after school, detention, lunchtime detention, roaring at a student in a classroom full of other people. I'm sorry, that should not be allowed. No, you. It goes on so much. Oh, full. I remember it. We were told to stand up if we got a question wrong. And we'd be standing there until we got a question right. That would destroy someone's confidence. That was like, and this is what I mean by some teachers are great and then you've got your teachers who might not, you know, they try to do their best. Like I'm not coming out teachers here that they try to do their best, but sometimes their best isn't their best. And sometimes people are downright not and you go to their jobs. I'm sorry. Yeah, yeah. They call it a spade, spade here because I've had experience of teenagers that I know and one story that happened was there was a female teacher in an old boy's school lined them up in day first, day of first year and went, you'll get a woman. You won't. You'll get a woman. You're a true story. True. True. It's a lot of decade. Like, it's so right. So that happened recently. So it is awful, the things. And like, I'm just thinking they're a school refusal. Well, of course, it's an unsafe environment. None of us want to be in an unsafe environment. Our nervous systems do not like that. We will want to search for safety in our homes. Thankfully that you had a safe home. Some teenagers don't have a safe home. No, it's not so it's like it's really tough as well. But of course, it wasn't somewhere that you wanted to go into because it was really hurt. No, and like, even when you said that there, I've got a memory of the time you went to Paris in transition year. And what you do is you put tree friends down for your name for your room. So I obviously put my tree friends names down. And they not one of them put my name down on their list. So I was put into a room with people I didn't even know. And I can remember bawling. I can remember it was the first room called out. And I can remember looking around the place and everyone just burst out laughing. Oh, I mean, meanwhile, the teachers were there said absolutely nothing. I had to get my suitcase. Walk with these girls. I didn't even know quiet girls. Nice girls. I actually got on with them quite well. But they would have been seen as weird, which is awful, but very smart girls. You know, I had to walk up my suitcase into the elevator, look back and see them all laughing. Right. And I can remember bawling my eyes out. And I can remember my mom having to ring the ears at the time. And I remember them saying I could go into the girls rooms and turn 12 o'clock at night and then I would be walked back with a teacher. So I did. So I did that anyway once I did it once and I would never do it again on my way back with the two teachers. They had said, Oh God, I don't know how you're staying in a room with them. They'd annoy me so much. Talking with the students. That's just horrible. And then they breathed. They were like, we can't even walk you in the door because we're breast out laughing. Oh my gosh. Oh my God. So I just I took my knee. And these, these were young teachers. They were, they were young teachers. They were young, you know. And I just said, I'm my own mind. You must have been awful in secondary school anyway, because if you're still doing that at this age, not, uh, I'm not okay. It's like this as well because like they, the people that we bring and you on that trip know who hangs around with who and they're not, you know, I don't care who you put down. You would make sure that you were with at least one of your pals to get me so that it's not like we know these things as teachers. You know who hangs with you. You know who the friends are and I don't know those sorts of things really annoying me because they're, you can change that you have power to make sure that everyone's happy enough and comfortable enough with their surroundings. And you know, it's my first time being out of the country without my mom like it was my first time. Do you know, and I was like, oh, this is like spent all this money for it to be a complete disaster for me. Do you know, like disaster, disaster. It's awful. It is awful. Great. It's a bit er, I wrap up this. Talk to you all day long. You do a full series of these with you. But if people are looking for you or want to hear you speak or let us know what's coming next for you and give us your socials. If you'd like to. I'm speaking at the lightest cinema in Dublin on the, I think it's the 27th of April with learning waves for TY media week. I will be saying my original TEDx talk and it'll be my first time speaking in front of people my own age. So I'm looking forward to that. Yeah. My Instagram is just shown all Sullivan. So you'll find that there in the same at my tip talk. It's all the same. Thanks so much. So much. That has been amazing. Thank you. Thank you. It's the really powerful conversation. I can't wait for this one to go out your little rock star. So you're so much for having me guys. And I love your accent as well. Everyone's going to love me to listen to you. Do what you're doing. Show me. Thank you. Thank you. Take care. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. And remember, use the code just us for money off your stay at the Bravee House Resort. Up mail. Thanks so much to Bravee House for sponsoring this podcast.