EP #49 - Body Image in the Entertainment Industry, Self-Compassion, and Channeling Your Inner Child with Jackie Emerson, Actress and Producer

(gentle music) - What we see informs how we see ourselves because it gives us the media that we consume and the stories that we consume really give us the lens through which we see the world. And so I wanna be a part of making conscious content and content that's helping people to feel okay and good and like they can do whatever because they've seen it here. - Welcome back to another episode of Every Day in Dorfins. You just heard from Jackie Emerson. Jackie is a woman of many talents. She's a writer, director, producer, but you may know her as the character Foxface in the Hunger Games or from a TED Talk that she gave back in 2012 called Holding onto Your Inner Child. In this episode, Jackie and I talk all about what that experience was like to be cast in the Hunger Games, how she's dealt with body image issues in the entertainment industry, the importance of learning how to be compassionate towards yourself to conquer those challenges around body image and self-esteem issues, especially what it's like dealing with those in such a cutthroat industry. And we wrap up our conversation talking about the importance of channeling your inner child and what that means, what that looks like and how engaging in creative play really can bring a sense of happiness and well-being into your day-to-day life. I'm so thrilled to share this conversation. Jackie has really amazing perspectives to offer and I think we can all really learn something and important from her story. And I think it's just so admirable how open and honest she was during this interview about all the struggles she's dealt with because I don't think it's really spoken about enough. You know, the issues and the challenges that women in particular face in areas like the entertainment industry, social media, all of that. So, you know, before I give too much away, I will let you guys get right into it. But first, I have a message from my sponsor, Anchor. - Hi Jackie, thanks so much for coming onto the podcast. - Thanks for having me, I'm so excited. - So let's start out with, you know, we were just talking about Dungeons and Dragons. And I, you were explaining to me what Dungeons and Dragons is and how this live stream is heading and that you're involved with Dungeons and Dragons and everything that's going on. So tell my listeners a little bit what you've been up to, you know, what's going on with the whole Dungeons and Dragons live stream. - Well, it's funny because I got into it over COVID because my friends started hosting and I played a couple campaigns before. I was on my friends podcast briefly, but he started hosting this kind of group Dungeons and Dragons session thing where basically, you know, anybody could play, he was hosting like four or five sessions a week and it was all within the same world. And we formed this like community and there was like 50 people playing and on Discord everybody had shops and they were selling things and everyone's like in characters so I was this like intense, you know, Elf Druid woman and it was just this unbelievable experience and coming out of it. He started this weekly live stream in a world that he slashed the podcast, you know, created called Emporia and I started playing on the live stream. And what's been so amazing is that, you know, I'm a performer, I'm an improviser. I love being on stage. I had a, you know, show at UCB before the pandemic happened and I really was missing that live performance bug and doing this live stream has, you know, it, I noticeably see that my week is better whenever I do it because it gives me that feeling of like performing on stage. It's a group of voice actors and improvisers so everybody's super creative and really fun and the group storytelling is just so empowering and invigorating and it's a really magical experience which sounds funny to be talking about something so nerdy like that, but I'm a nerd so I'll fully own it. But we all have like the niche things that we love and I mean with COVID it really did impact especially performers not being able to be on stage and not being able to perform. I mean, the Metropolitan Opera like shut down and it was such so devastating and I used to also be a performer. I used to sing in the Metropolitan Opera and they're Children's Chorus. - You know that? - Yeah. - I sang in the LA Opera in their Children's Chorus. - Look at that. Classical training. - Funny, look at us. - I did a Paliati Enhanceling Gradle and then they did one called Keepers of the Night which was not quite, it was like a affiliated with the band. - I remember auditioning for Hansel and Gradle, you know, the nine and I didn't get it but I was in Lombard. - Oh my God. - I was in Carmen. - Oh my God. - It was an amazing almost love oh-m. - It's so funny. - Look at that. I mean from one performer to another. - You understand. - Well, you know, it was very difficult to be out with COVID and I stopped performing. I stopped singing in the Met, the NMI Fresh Meary of High School. So it's been quite some time but with the pandemic, it really must have been so difficult, you know, having, you know, performing as your career, having to have this abrupt change and, you know, adapting to what was happening in the world. So I'm so glad that you found this D&D community to bring back a little bit of that joy. But, you know, we're not here today. - Talk about D&D. - Talk about D&D even though super cool, super cool things that you're doing with it. You know, we're here to talk about your experience and acting, your experience and entertainment industry, mental health, the amazing TED Talk that you gave a while back about, you know, cultivating your inner child, why that's so important. So I'm super excited to dive into all of these topics. But let's start out. - I was gonna say, you're gonna have to tell me about the TED Talk 'cause I've been too scared to watch it. - It's really amazing. - I read the comments, but I don't, I don't. - I mean, I'm too nervous. - It also has been some time. So like, I'm sure it's difficult to look back. I mean, and watch yourself. Sometimes I listen back on my own episodes and I've only recorded for a year. And I'm like, how could I have said that? It's like secondhand embarrassment for myself. - Yeah. - Or sounded like that. I've actually kind of gotten over the sound and like, thanks, they do a lot of voiceover. And you're just spending hours editing your auditions and like listening to your voice again. And again, and so it kind of is a trial by fire or a exposure therapy, I think is what they call it. - Yeah, that's a good term to put it actually. But you know, let's start out with talking about your experience in the entertainment industry and body image. You have really an amazing career. You were in the Hunger Games. And that was probably such a cool experience. I can't even begin to imagine what that was like. But you've been a performer your entire life. You've been acting, you've been performing, producing and the entertainment industry is one crazy place. And here on my podcast, we talk about mental health, body image, well being, fitness, everything is very intertwined. So I'd love for you to start out by sharing your experience with navigating mental health challenges, body image issues, being under the spotlight in the public image, being on screen. - Yeah, totally. Yeah, it was a really interesting experience. I ended up having to lose some weight to even get cast in the movie, which really fucks with your head as a 16 year old, especially when you're like pretty normally weighted. But I think to me, the biggest issue is, you know, now I'm in a really solid place with myself. It's taken me a while to get there, but I really am. And I know that if I got cast in something where it was like, this is necessary for the character to transform your body in XYZ way, I think I could separate myself, but I'm 10 years older than where I was before. And even then, it still might mess with me a little bit. And to me, the biggest issue also was not just losing the weight. It was that I lost the weight and then I was told, you've to stay this way if you wanna get cast in anything else. And I was like, I haven't had my period for a year and a half. I've got so skinny, you know, I wasn't eating. It was just a very skewed perception, but I would look at the people who are successful and I would go, well, they're right. I mean, everybody looks the same way. And thank God now that's starting to change. And we're really seeing more diversity in terms of body image and, you know, as well as everything else. But, you know, to me that kind of set me on a whole journey with me and myself and my body and kind of carving my own path in the industry because it really solidified for me that I just can't be in a place where I'm so at the whim of other people and that, you know, I have to change everything about myself for, you know, this thing. Like, I wanna have a modicum of control. And that was when I started to create my own content. And it really all stemmed from the body image stuff. It kind of formed my individuation and my need to kind of make my own mark because I was like, well, if no one's gonna let me do this looking the way that I look, then I'm just gonna have to make it for myself. And also, like, I wanna clarify, Hollywood is such a skewed image of body image that what's normal doesn't feel normal and everything is normal. You know, wherever your at is normal and the problem with this industry is it makes you feel even when you're at the idealized, you know, like if it's a super, super, super skinny, you know, thin place, if that's what's idealized, even there, you don't feel normal because you're always told that you're not enough. So I wanna clarify that when I'm talking about normal, I mean, everyone is good the way that they are, you know, and it's really just this skewed perception of you're never good enough. If that makes any sense. I love that you mentioned that. I mean, being told that you're not good enough and having that be a constant dialogue or narrative that's fed to you will really mess with your head because then you start to believe it and then you start to internalize that and then that is brought into your day to day. And if you're, if you have that belief that you're not good enough and your self-esteem is horrible, your self-confidence is horrible and it can also cloud our decision-making because we don't feel, you know, confident ourselves or we don't have that trust or we don't have that acceptance. There's no self-love. There's no want to even have self-compassion. If you deeply believe that and these are messages that are being sent to you and, you know, 16 is such a young age. When you're a teenager, you're like a kid and how, you know, how did you deal with that when you were so young? I mean, because it comes at the cost, like you have this incredible role in an incredible incredible movie and an incredible experience, but that also comes at the cost of your own well-being and your own physical health. What's interesting is like it was definitely a stress while I was there while I was on set, but it didn't, you know, it still felt like it was like in sacrifice for this greater cause. You know, I was like, it's okay, I'm still doing this thing. And really for me, the impacts came afterwards. It came when I left set and I started to have like a binge eating disorder because I had to restrict myself for so long that all of a sudden I couldn't stop eating. It came when I started gaining weight and I got my period for the first time and I was told that that was a bad thing. You know, it came when I went to college and gained the very normal freshman 15 and got boobs for the first time in hips. I'm a late bloomer and I'm a curvy person. And I felt like that meant that I would never be able to act again. And then I had like a pattern of disorder eating following that where I would lose a ton of weight and gain a ton of weight and lose a ton of weight and gain a ton of weight. And through it all, I think the hardest part for me was that I didn't, I really resented exercise because to me exercise was a means to an end. You only exercise to lose weight. You only exercise to morph your body. And there were a lot of family pressures too. I think that specifically for women, a lot of body image stuff is passed down, mother to daughter, mother to daughter. And I kind of took me a while to realize that it was my cycle to break and that I couldn't sit there and blame other people or circumstances forever. And I realized that at the end of the day, and that was when I started to do body image panels, and I was going around to conventions and I was talking about body image and representation in general, as opposed to just what Jennifer Lawrence is like. She's awesome, by the way. But that for me was kind of a turning point where I realized I was preaching health and I was preaching mental health and I was preaching body love. But I didn't love myself. And I didn't actually feel comfortable and good in my own body. And I was actually really mistreating my body by feeding it on healthy things and then starving it. And then I was putting my body through the ringer because I was so afraid to accept just who I was and where I was at. And I actually started to do, I graduated college and kind of being out of that environment, I started to do yoga for the first time. And it was the first time that I felt like I wasn't exercising to achieve any goal. I was just doing it because it made me feel good. Like I just started to notice that my anxiety was a lot better when I do it. And it was kind of a meditative practice for me. And that to me began the process of true body acceptance, which is still something by the way that I struggle with day to day. It's still not 100%. But I'm so I think of where I was like five or 10 years ago. And I'm I have to give myself that I've really come so far on this journey. And a huge part of it for me was acknowledging like look at what my body can do. You know, like how cool that I you know feel myself getting stronger, how cool and also like throwing out of scale. And and then also like taking all of those bullshit like eat this, don't eat this, edit out articles and just throwing them down the drain because the thing is like your body knows what it's wanting. You know, so you're craving dark chocolate, maybe you need dark chocolate because you're on your period and actually the chemicals in dark chocolate work with the chemicals in your body to you know, like ease cramping and and ease hormone levels, you know, or maybe you're craving meat, even though you feel like you're supposed to be a vegetarian because your body is really meeting like iron and protein. And so for me it became like much more a thing of accepting that you know, my body is the way it is. And what I can do is just treat it like the sanctuary that I always you know, wish I had. And that how I feel internally will be how people see me externally. And and once again, this all sounds very preachy. I don't mean it to me. I'm still on the journey. But these are just things that I've kind of you know, picked up along the way. Thank you for being so honest and sharing. Oh, I mean, I hope it didn't come off like I was like on a pedestal or something. No, not at all. Like okay. It's very difficult to be so honest about past experiences with disordered eating, current experiences with disorder eating, disordered eating in general, you know, the pressure being in the spotlight. So thank you. It does not come off preachy whatsoever. And I think it's incredibly important that you're utilizing your platform to share your experiences. Because I can guarantee you there's like nine out of 10 girls who are who are suffering or have suffered with the same exact thing. And that's so it's such a sad reality. It really is. And I like you mentioned earlier, like I think right now the entertainment industry is trending towards more of like a positive representation of all body sizes and media. And you know, this you know, the movement towards destigmatizing mental health, but there's obviously of course still a long way to go. And I really can also resonate with this concept around exercise as a means to an end because I think that's how we often see it. Or that's how it's often portrayed, especially, you know, when you're in college and you're at the gym and it's a lot of people I think don't like going to the gym in college because they feel like they're being swatched or seen. Oh yeah, I think it's like such a judgey and like. Like exactly. And it's like, why does exercise have to be like that? Like why can't you just exercise to move your body? Like if I sit for too long, my legs start to go numb. I don't know if that's a poor circulation thing or like I don't know what it is, but I crave act like physical activity, just movement. And when I was a rower in high school, obviously exercise was like an athletic thing for me. It was to compete. And when I stopped rowing in college, all of the sudden it was this shocking realization where I was like, well, how am I going to exercise to stay healthy? And like what does it actually mean to be healthy? Because it's not like I'm trying to hit a certain metric on the rowing machine and like, win a race. Like what does it mean to be healthy in my body? And it took a long time, honestly, all throughout college to figure out like what's healthy for me? And I think that also ties back to your point and around like listening to your body and cravings, like not assigning good versus bad labels on food because that, you know, brings in guilt and shame. And that's the worst thing that will eat away at you. And that perpetuates those negative thought patterns. And it is a journey. Like it, you know, you can say that you're practicing these things. And even as you're practicing them, like there may be a bad day that you encounter, but it's like, you know, not falling victim to that. And just, you know, keep moving forward. And trusting in yourself that you know what your body needs. And if you accidentally mistreated because you're feeling really shitty that day, like not being hard on yourself for mistreating it in that moment, treating it with compassion. Yeah. You know, the other thing I'd add on to that, I totally agree with everything you said is that, you know, this doesn't just go for body image. It's the reason why it's so important for us to have representation, you know, in every aspect is because of this, you know, feeling of being less than or, you know, whatever. And I think I've gotten better and better at seeing that voice and hearing it and noticing it and being like, Oh, that's not me. That's not who I am. This is what culture is telling me. I should be. Does that make sense? Yes. Yes. Definitely. Because then when you can separate your inner dialogue from like all the noise that's being fed around you, it's kind of empowering because then you realize, like, okay, I don't have to succumb to that. Like there's going to be someone told me this, you know, this past summer while I was on my like spiritual escapade in Bali. But someone told me that like life is just going to be throwing noise at you. And you just, you got to filter through it. You can't let it like merge with your own beliefs because that's kind of one and it will mess with you. And yeah, I had like a pretty difficult experience that summer. I try doing like a juice cleanse, which like yeah. So I like the way it was marketed to me was it's a not like it's good to detox your body naturally, like the, you know, the whole thing. And I just wanted to be as open to as many experiences as possible. So I thought like, I'll try it. I'll do a three day thing. Let me see how it goes. It did not go well. could not finish even like the first 24 hours. Like I was done by the end of that day and I was like, okay, I literally need to eat something right now because I was like emotional. I was angry to like, no end. Like it was not great and granted like in that experience, I think I was like missold the concept around juicing and I was not guided in like a safe way and then it got really scary for me like psychologically scary but yeah, I mean just going back to this point, it's like you have to filter through the noise. Like you can't let people negatively influence you or the way that society thinks about these things. - I think the thing that's tough is that like, you know, that's kind of how we're evolutionarily programmed, right? It's like pack mentality. And so we want to be accepted on like a chemical level. We want to be a part of things. And I think that like, you know, a huge thing for me was also dealing with, you know, my quote unquote critic and not making it wrong, but instead just being like, oh, you're just trying to have me survive. But like I don't actually need that anymore. Like we've evolved a lot, but I appreciate you like things were being here, but that's not what I need and that's not who I am. And when I think you're totally right about just marching to the B2B on drum, for me the thing that kind of keeps me going is I go like, you know, I feel like my life and my self image and my self perception would be so much different if I saw people who looked like me or if I saw like true representation. And once again, this goes for representation in every category, which is something that I'm completely aware of. But because of that, I go, well, then how would I feel if I knew somebody had purposefully changed themselves to look this other way? Like that would make me feel like I did something wrong. You know what I mean? And so I always think that like the way that I can be the best role model is just by loving myself. And by, you know, presenting myself and by carving out that space for myself no matter how I look on my days when I'm 15 pounds heavier and on my days when I'm 15 pounds lighter. And supporting, you know, people of all body types and shapes and things like that and hopefully making it more and more the norm because I think that, you know, what we see informs how we see ourselves because it gives us the media that we consume and the stories that we consume really give us the lens through which we see the world. And so I want to be a part of making conscious content and content that's helping people to feel okay and good and like they can do whatever because they've seen it here, you know, that's beautifully said and that's so true. It's, you know, what we consume, media, music, books, what we read, you know, the people we bring into our space, the energy that we surround ourselves with. That informs our perspective on the world and it shapes, you know, our perspective on ourselves and the way it's this like two-way street, there's interaction both ways. So the way that you see yourself is then going to be reflected out on to, you know, how you see the world. And so it's this like cyclical process which is why having conversations like these are so hard because it's like, well, where do you start? Well, where do you, how do you start loving yourself? Like quote-unquote finding that self-love because we all talk about it and we know that that's an important thing to do. Like we know that we want to have self-compassion and self-acceptance and being kind on ourselves. But it's like, well, what does that actually look like? And it's not like you can just magically snap your fingers and say, okay, I'm loving myself today. Like there's just, you know. And I also think that like social media makes that so much harder. So much harder because it's just an app of comparison. All of them. I actually had to like completely dissociate from social media. I have it all deleted from my phone because it's just, I was finding myself, I was finding it was retriggering bad habits for me. And it was, you know, kind of bringing up stuff that wasn't necessarily the healthiest version of me. But you know, that is the, the Ion's old question, right? And it's like, there's every self-help book in the world that kind of talks about it. And, you know, something that I like to do at first was just kind of writing what I was grateful for. Like three things I was grateful for at the end of every day. And it just helped me kind of approach things with a more positive attitude. And then it started to change into like, what are things I'm grateful for in myself? Like, here's something I'm proud of that I did, you know, stuff like that. But there's no, I mean, there's no fix all right. It's a, it's a long, long journey. But I think that, and I truly believe that the more we can see authentic people out there truly loving themselves, the more it kind of breaks the cycles. Like I know, for example, one of the greatest gifts that I could give my family and my parents in regards to body and body image was truly loving myself because then it showed them that they're okay too. And so I think that that's, that's the greatest gift is just by, you know, existing as who you are and taking up the space that you're meant to take up, which is a lot. And doing so shamelessly. And I think that, you know, once again, it is a journey, but I think that the more we can get people out there in positions of visibility who are like that, the more it'll help, you know, anybody looking at them to feel that, you know, that power and that wave of love as well. And who better like exemplifies authenticity, being yourself, you know, shamelessly, like fully embodying who you are, who does that better than children? Like kids. Totally. Who does that better than children who just, you know, see the world with such an open perspective and they soak everything up and they don't bring judgment into anything. They just see things for as they are and they're curious. Like, who does that better than kids? And I know you had given this amazing TED Talk around cultivating your inner child and, you know, coming back to that curiosity. So I'd love for you to talk a little bit more about like what you, what you mean by that, what you meant by that during the TED Talk and if that's been something that you've kind of kept up as maybe like a daily practice, you know, since giving that TED Talk. Yeah, I mean, I still very much believe and am an advocate for inner child because I do think that it's something that we lose as we get older. I mean, when I was a kid, I never wanted to grow up. It was my biggest fear. And a lot of that was that I never wanted to become jaded and I never wanted to stop seeing the world with awe because I think that that's the thing that kids do that is so miraculous. As everything is a discovery, everything is play and everything is like a first time experience. And I never wanted to lose that. And, you know, in moments I have like that's this part of growing up is we do get kind of jaded and sometimes we realize that the world sucks. But and it can feel hard to maintain that sense of inner child when there's so much darkness, you know, everywhere it feels. But for me, that's where I love and I found such value in creativity and in improv and in dungeons and dragons to tie it back. And in these outlets for me that are purely playful. I mean, like I'll get on stage with a group of people and we'll just create a musical out of nothing out of like a title that someone gives us. And if that's not childish play, like if I I did that as a kid, like I'd walk around making up songs all the time and now I'm doing it as an adult and I'm getting paid for it occasionally, like that's cool. But for me, it's really just that stuff is so I think that's why I feel so good whenever I play D&D is because there's an aspect of it that truly is just, you know, playing. It's like I'm getting to act out a fantasy of like, you know, I'm in one of those fantasy books I loved so much growing up. I get to exist in that world. And I think that it helps us to realize that even through the darkness, there's still laughter and there's still levity and there's still beauty and there's still grace and there's still people out there that are, you know, working magic, like truly working magic and are bringing light. And, you know, the cheese quote, like even in the darkest of times you can always find the light, Albus Dumbledore, Harry Potter, big fan. But not fan of JK Rowling, but fan of Albus Dumbledore separated from JK Rowling. But I do think that like an important thing to an important thing for me has been finding that through these outlets of play that I have and through. And that's why I also got during this past year of COVID, I can't even tell you how lucky I felt at times because you know, I had a tough year, everybody had a tough year, but a lot of loss. And there were so many times that I turned to my art because for me, it was an escape and an outlet and a place where I could be both innocent and wise at the same time. And there were so many moments where I went, God, I don't know how people function who don't have outlets like this, who don't have an excuse to just play because I think that it truly is such a gift and I think it's like medicine. I think it's like medicine. There's a lot of research actually in psychology being done around the, like what play is and like the positive benefits that come out of engaging in this play, like as adults. And it's, you know, to my understanding, it's linked to flow and like what it's like to experience a flow like state when you're involved in an activity where you're like challenging yourself just like pushing it just to the edge and like not, you know, overboard, but like as you're just pushing it, then you can tap into that flow like state and it's like pure bliss. It's like euphoric. or you're not, you're getting endorphins and to tie it back to the name of this podcast. Like, when you engage in creative play and you let down all those barriers or you get rid of those distractions, it's a nice escape from the real world. I have a friend who loves cars. I didn't know there was a big car community out there, but he will go on Sunday morning drives at 6 in the morning, by himself in his car and blast music. Like, I don't know if it's safe, but he says that the roads are clear. So, and he'll like, he just drives and I think it's a me. Apparently, there's a big car community out there. I cannot be from experience because I don't even have a permit. But working on that, the point being is that there are so many things you can do to like have that mental escape and there's something so powerful about being able to like mentally transport you to a different place and smell can be super powerful. Like, taste can be really powerful. So for me, music is a really powerful one and a lot of times if I'm preparing for a role as an actor, I'll have like a playlist of songs for the character and that just can help me like immediately walk in. But I know some actors that are super smell oriented, although they'll link the character up to like, you know, a center of perfume or something like that and they'll smell that and that'll lock them in. And I think that's so cool. I've never even heard that and that's a really cool way to like build character development and acting because when you're embodying a character, like you have to fully like step into that fictional person's shoes or maybe it's based off a real person and you can you know, draw from real life or real experience on. But there's also I think a lot to be said with like that experience of putting yourself aside and then fully stepping into a different character. Totally. It's, I mean, it's therapy and it's also, there's something, I have to describe this like through an anecdote because otherwise I can't quite say it. But I did this play pre pandemic and it was very, very intense. It's probably the most intense acting work I've ever done. And it was a three person show in a super intimate theater. So it was one of those experiences that I love where stage acting becomes film acting where it's like you just have to be, you have to be so natural because anybody can see it if you're not because it's so intimate. And there's one moment where my character who is dying, told you dark show, is talking to the ghost of my dead mother and nobody can see it except for, you know, the character is not like there's an actor I'm talking to an empty empty chair. And there's, and it's almost spooky like there's a little bit of like a, like the lighting goes kind of weird and stuff like that. So it's a little scary. But, but in the beginning, it's pure joy because she's just so happy and emotional to see her mom again in this moment, you know, when she's on the hospital bed. And then towards the end of it, her mom starts disappearing and she gets like really emotional, you know, obviously, and starts to basically have like a panic attack. And then of course, the light switch and then she's like lying on the ground of the hospital and all the doctors are running and stuff like that. But anyway, all of that is to say that I remember there was one night where I was giving this monologue and it was the moment where the mom starts, you know, in my mind, disappearing. And it was just this like grief was like ripping through me. And the audience is like two feet away. And there was this guy in the front row literally like two, three feet away from me who just starts way like like sobbing tears pouring down his face, you know, clearly having this unbelievable emotional moment. And instead of it distracting me or taking me out or whatever, I felt like I was taking his grief and channeling it through me and like processing it and then exhuming it out of my body. And it was the weird, it was like, I couldn't even process it till later, but it was like, I just felt like it was like this weird moment of channeling almost. And I left and I was like, oh, that's the purpose of acting. Like it's not about me. It's not about me performing. It's about me being a vessel. And you know, whatever is coming through. And that's why I love acting so much is because every day it's like you're just going like every time you step into the character, you're going like, okay, I'm going to jump off this cliff. And I'm just going to open myself up to whatever is coming through. And that's kind of what it is. That is such powerful imagery because when you said vessel in my mind, I was thinking vehicle. Like we were on the same. So interesting. It's like a black box. Like it's, you're, you abstract away from the body and the body is the vehicle or the vessel that actually like brings forth these emotions, like the movement of emotion and emotion is not like this physical thing. You can't touch it. You can't hold onto it, but it's so expressive and it's, and it can be so obvious and it can be so like invisible at the same time. Totally. And it's like how, I've actually never really thought about this. So you're challenging me right now because yes, I used to perform, but it was, I was like, you know, six years old to 14. It wasn't that deep. It was definitely a really cool experience to be performing at the opera, but I never gave thought to, you know, it wasn't like I had solo roles. It was in the children's chorus. So that's obviously a different experience than what you do and what you're doing. But I've never even thought about acting as like this poetry almost. I mean, it really is. And like that's what I, that's what I love so much about it is to me, it's like the highest form of any art is just pure giving. Like it's, it's not about you. Like people always ask me like, they're like, how can you do so many things? There's no way you're good at all of them. You can't like write and act and sing and song right and do do do. And to me, I'm like, well, yeah, because it's all just me opening myself up to the same channel. And I'm just channeling whatever that flow and energy is into whatever tool I'm using that day. So maybe that tool is my body. Maybe that tool is my voice. Maybe that tools my hands and my brain for writing. But I think that like, but it's not about me, you know, and I think that like a lot of acting can be confused with image when I think, you know, I don't know. I think it is just, it's a form of, you're in, it's a very high form of work when it's done that way. Do you know what I mean? It's, because it can be such a, I don't know. We learn about ourselves through, through mirrors and, um, and acting is becoming a mirror. Yeah. And like these mirrors that you're mentioning, they're often other people or experiences. So oftentimes it's like never about the other person or the experience itself. It's like how it's a reflection onto yourself, which I think is so powerful. Because then if you go into like, experiences with that mentality, it, I think it takes away a lot of the anxiety because, and you can just feel like, okay, like, what am I going to learn about myself from this? It's not about like, how am I going to please this person or how am I going to make a good impression or whatever, you know, the anxious thought is, but it's like, well, it's going to happen. And like, how can I use this as an opportunity to gain more of an understanding about who I am and what I value and what I'm interested in? And it's kind of beautiful to think about it that way. Yeah. Sorry to interrupt. I just wanted to say that like for a long time, there was a series of like eight to ten years where I couldn't sing because I would get too nervous and my throat would close up because I cared so much about looking good and about what other people would think of me. And I think finally my godmother sat me down and she was like, Jackie, you've been given a gift and you're being selfish by hoarding it because it's not about you. It's about, you know, what you can give to other people. And that to me just kind of changed my whole thinking about art in general. And like the final thing I'll say is I did a play at Stanford and I remember coming off stage one night and thinking it was like the worst performance I'd ever done. Like I just felt like I completely bombed, which, you know, arguably I don't think it was a good performance like to this day. I still don't. But I was like, this was a wash and somebody came up to me afterwards and was crying and was like, you just played my mom. And I felt like I learned about her through watching you. And it was kind of this like humbling realization of like, oh, yeah, it's not like me, me, me, you know what I mean? Like, like I was going like, oh, I suck. I'm going to go crawl on a hole like that. And, you know, and, and it just kind of made me remember that like art oftentimes, it exists outside of you, you know, that for me is how I'm able to separate, you know, JK Rowling from Harry Potter is because to me, it's like that she created, but it channeled through her, whatever, but the art exists outside of her now. And now it's ours to interpret and, you know, place upon it. And, you know, anyway, it's just, it's just a thought process that I have. Yeah, that's a really beautiful way to put it. And it's definitely something for me to contemplate because you can argue that like art is in everything in life, even in like the really mundane things, like even in work. if work feels mundane to you or just going through the motions, like art does exist. You just kind of have to seek it out or what you define to be art and artistry and creativity. And it's just really cool to think about this because I feel like what you're talking about is more or less very similar to this idea of like just finding your endorphins in your day to day life, like finding what brings you joy and happiness. Like my mind goes to like the scientific exploring plan or like looking at like the endorphin molecule or thinking about like these hormones and our bodies that bring us happiness. But like for you, it's all about art and creativity. And that in itself produces happiness, which is so beautiful. And so it's like, well, whether or not you're finding art in your day to day or endorphins, do what you got to do. Like you, I think it's like the onus is on us to seek out those experiences because they're hidden and they're there, but you have to like really put in the effort to find them. And I think that's what brings like fulfillment and and and sustained happiness and sustained like excitement for life. If that's I don't know if that's cliche. I hope it's not cliche. But I feel like I'm kind of like through this conversation. I'm almost in a way redefining like what I thought about endorphins and happiness. Cool. How? Well, just you know, like this seeing it from like an artist's perspective because I haven't had someone come onto the podcast who is a performer for a living and who is like obsessed in the best way with art and creativity. And I think in our culture, we separate like creativity and like right brain versus left brain. Like I think we separate that in our culture. Like someone who's going to be a doctor versus someone who's going to be a writer. Yeah, but the thing that's ironic about that is that like a doctor is extremely creative. Like you're given a problem. You have to figure out a solution and that in itself is, you know, a form of art. And I think that you're totally right and that we do, you know, separate them or I also do think that the arts are pretty looked down upon in America. I think that they're much more celebrated in other cultures. I think in England, especially like the theatrical arts are much more celebrated and physical you support it. But because they really see, I mean, look at our public school systems. We're cutting arts funding everywhere. And but the arts and creativity can have such an impact on, you know, everything. On the way you see the world, on the way that you function, on the way you process stuff, on the way that you are able to communicate. And the one thing that I thought was not cool. I'm not going to say anything about COVID was cool. But like I think one of the crazy or cool things that came out of it is I think, you know, when we were in these dire straits that ever was depressed and locked up and all that stuff, what did we turn to? We turned to art, you know, and I think that that's a really important lesson about, you know, the place of art and artists in society and in humanity in general and in helping us to, you know, navigate the world. Well said. I mean, and especially like in COVID, I remember when it feels like forever ago when like Italy was really bad before the US. And there were videos of like Italians, you know, singing outside of their windows. Like that's immediately what went to my mind when you were saying in COVID, like we turned, we turned to art. That was one of the things we definitely leaned on for support and for, you know, community building and just trying to get through such a difficult time. Yeah, I 100% and so I think that I think art and endorphins are extremely linked. You know, even if art makes you really sad, then you generally feel good after because you like got your sad emotions out. Exactly. And another, you know, going off of that, it's like it's important to get those emotions out because sadness is like so intrinsically linked to happiness. And I think a lot of anyone. Yes. And I'm actually thinking of inside out because I saw that movie like it doesn't feel that long ago, but it was like also in April. So it's like no, I've never known time is weird, but I saw that movie this year and like I was blown away with how how like the producers and the writers could actually like take these concepts and then like create a Disney film out of it intended for all audiences. Really incredible. And like something that blew my mind, I was watching it with a friend and I turned to him and I was like literally happiness and sadness are almost like one of the same. And they're just different expressions of it. It was crazy to me and this is a Disney film like meant for kids. And you know, maybe it goes back to your earlier point that we're all children at the end of the day and we have to like hold on to that. But going off of all of this, this is kind of like the elephant in the room question and it's something that I ask every single guest that comes onto the podcast is what is something that brings you endorphins. And I know art may be the obvious answer, but this can be really anything that like in your day to day, part of your routine, something that you just enjoy doing, something that brings you so much happiness. Definitely anything artistic. Any, I feel very lucky that I get to do the thing that makes me happy. I feel such a sense of purpose whenever I'm writing or acting or improvising or creating or singing or songwriting. So all of those things, I would say, I actually really got into some different sports and stuff this year in COVID, because I had nothing else to do. And that's also how that, you know, that's brought a lot of endorphins. Seeing people is important to me, being able to, you know, connect with my grandparents or with my close friends. That is a huge endorphin hike. Eating a delicious meal. I actually really love cooking. I've weirdly gotten into cooking. I just like my parents, I was stayed with my parents for a little bit and they have like some herbs in the, you know, outside. And I would like pick herbs and then cook with them. And there was something about it that felt very grounding. And yeah, because you're like creating meat, like, I don't know if you've a garden, like if you're using the fresh vegetables or herbs or whatever, you're, you're like directly impacting the food that you're eating. I think cooking is very meditative. So too. And yeah, I feel like I said everything there is in her's of endorphins. Oh, reading a good book. Reading a good book is, I'm obsessed with fantasy, name a series. And I've either read it or heard of it. But I absolutely love fantasy. And so for me, it was a lot of fantasy, a lot of fantasy reading. Because to me, that's like an escape into a different world. Exactly. Same with like mystery books or just reading in general. It's like you can, you can just forget that your life exists for a second and just be totally immersed in a different reality, which is so pleasurable. Like it's just so like the feeling of just sitting down with a good book. It's been a while for me to sit like, because I don't really read fiction that often. And I need to get back into it. But I just love like memoirs and nonfiction. And so I do want to get back into like reading like opposite readers. Exactly. When I was a kid, I read so many more nonfiction and like really intense books. And now that I'm an adult and I'm like, oh, the world's really intense. Like, I'm just going to read a Wheel of Time by Robert Jordan and escape at the fantasy land. That's so funny. Like when I was a kid, I read a lot of fiction. And now it's like, I'm just so interested in nonfiction. But I think it's good to like diversify the reading list. So not something like diving into people's psychology. Yeah, I think that's what it is. I think that's probably what it is. But I need to get better about like creating more of a routine in my reading habits because TikTok is literally a blessing an occurs. Like a, like definitely more occurs than a blessing. But it's a dicking. So I should probably take my own advice at the same time. But thank you so much, Jackie. It was really amazing having you on the podcast. I didn't even know where this conversation was going to go. And I did not expect it to go from Dungeons and Dragons to talking about Harry Potter and like fantasy novels. But I loved every part of it. And I am so happy that you were able to come on as a guest. So thank you. Thanks for having me. This is really lovely. And I love that you're doing this. And where can my followers find you on social media, even though we all like should not be on social media as much as we are. I'm just ex-dital. Yeah, I mean, I occasionally post on the Instagram at Jackie Dash Emerson. And then I'll occasionally post like weird songs or music videos that I make on YouTube. But you can generally link to that through my Instagram or just Google like general and ever so on YouTube. But yeah, probably my Instagram is weird to find me. But I'm apologizing in advance for being terrible. Oh, and tune into my D&D live stream Tuesday nights, 6 to 9 p.m. on Twitch. I generally post about it. Awesome. Shameless plug. I love it. All have to watch one of them because now I am so intrigued. It's really fun. It's fun role-playing. Thank you so much. Thank you. I appreciate it. It was great to be on. Thank you for listening and remember to like, rate, and review this podcast on whichever listing platform you prefer. Don't forget to keep spreading in Dorfins and find things that bring you in Dorfins every day. See you next time.