Ep 48 - Saad Alam (CEO, Hone Health) on Longevity, Testosterone, & Peptides

Hymns House, episode 48. My name is Jonathan Stern. I'm here as always with Patrick Lester, who goes by the name Bayside in Hymns House, Discord. We're joined today by Sod Alam, founder and CEO of Hone Health, a telehealth company that specializes in testosterone and longevity. Given that Hymns recently launched its testosterone vertical, we wanted to talk to Sod about Hymns' new products as well as the market overall. Sod Alam, welcome to Hymns House. Guys, I'm incredibly excited to be here. As I was telling you, this is one of the, this is one of the podcasts that I watch free regularly, and it has a pretty big impact at me and the people at the company as well. Let's get started with some background on Hone Health. What is it? When did you start it? Why did you start it? Hone Health started March of 20, right when the pandemic hit. The reason I started it is incredibly personal. For two main reasons, I made my mid-40s now. When I turned 35, a bunch of problems started to happen. Mentally, QD and stamina started to decrease pretty dramatically. I started to gain quite a bit of weight, and I started to feel depressed, which is really the opposite of my personality. So like anyone, I went to my primary care physician and I said something is dramatically wrong. He takes a look at me, takes a look at some of my biomarker values, and he says, "Sod," a metamine of Middle Eastern descent, they tend to age a little bit faster, so you're just going to have to get used to it. I'm going to give you an antidepressant and some biagro, because I think you have some angst in you to handle that. And I said that with bullshit. I said it in no way that that is a good answer. And so I left his office, and that's what really started the journey of me seeing multiple providers over the course of the next year, and urologists, endocrinologists, cardiologists, and no one really had a great answer for me. And then I finally met a group of hormone optimization regenerative physicians that basically told me that I had the testosterone levels of an 80-year-old man. So I got, went through treatment, completely changed my life, gave my energy back, helped me kind of think long about life again, and then unfortunately, right around the same time, my father was passing away from several chronic diseases that were completely preventable, and his immigrants we didn't necessarily have access to healthcare. And so watching him pass, and also becoming deeply ingrained in the longevity movement, we said to ourselves, let's create the most comprehensive longevity platform that we can actually dream of, but we had to start in a very narrow place, and that was men's hormones, in a sense grosses. Great. So walk us through your product lineup, if you could. Sure. So you have, we'll call it men's and women's, actually, you've got men's hormones, that's a corpus. So it's testosterone, chloed, and astrosol. Then you have other weight loss medications, you've got thyroid medications, and then for women, it's similarly estrogen, progesterone, testosterone, weight loss medications, thyroid medications, in addition to a bunch of these new longevity medications. Great. And just to round it out, are you able to disclose revenue or something in the ballpark of revenue? Yeah. So we're right now, nine figures of recurring revenue, very efficient business, kind of grown very quietly, about to probably become a little bit louder, I would say, in the next year or so. Wow. That's exciting. And top competitors, I mean, you guys, as I understand it, are among the largest testosterone telehealth companies, I think in the US, who are the competitors that we should be aware of? Well, so I think it's an interesting question right, because if we're just talking about testosterone, I would probably say there are a few out there, but we probably start indexing ourselves more on kind of this category of longevity. I think Hems is hitting there. I think Mitty's heading over there. They're much smaller players in the space like life force. And maybe the way I'd probably you almost think about our businesses, rather than just selling products, we actually focus on a process, which is kind of like this process of providing longevity care. Okay. We're, I want to get into longevity, I think Patrick has some questions specific to that. We've heard Andrew Dudum, CEO of Hems talk about longevity. It's a word that means different things to different people, and we'd love to hear about what it means to you. A couple more questions about testosterone specifically, again, just because Hems just launched that vertical. Hems started with enclomaphine. Is that the right pronunciation side? Yep. Enclomaphine. Enclomaphine. Okay. They're starting with that this year. Hems has said they're going to do TRT testosterone replacement therapy next year. This was interesting to me. Following the launch, which was I think a month ago today, September tell, someone in our discord wrote, to the best of my knowledge, enclomaphine has never been approved for TRT. The company that was working on it pulled the application. Hems is making a mistake on this. I have no problem with compounding personalized versions of approved medications for the indications for which they were approved, but this is not that. What do you think of those words? I'd love to talk to that person and help educate them a little bit about what exactly it is. So let's even quickly review how does enclomaphine or clomid work, right? So what ends up happening is you have this thing called your hypothalamus in your brain and that sits on top of your pituitary. The two of those are the beginning of what's called a hypo pituitary thalamic access. And so what ends up happening is it secretes a hormone called luteinizing hormone. Luteinizing hormone tells your testes to produce more testosterone. The way to think about this HPA access or almost this pituitary gland that you have in your brain, it's at almost like a temperature sensor for hormones, right? And so what ends up happening is this drug called clomid or enclomaphine. It basically tells your pituitary to produce more LH. Now it has actually never been approved for TRT. It is approved for women's fertility reasons and it has been used for almost 35 to 40 years off label. So whether it's clomid or enclomaphine, both of them have never been approved. But guess what? We've been using it for 30 years. There's a tremendous amount of safety and efficacy data and we know it works. So this is actually something that I feel very safe about. Now let's actually talk about other drugs that are used for off label purposes. Real real quick because I did see on your website, you guys, I think it's branded as clomid or clomaphine, right? Is that pretty similar to what hymns is offering, which is end-clomaphine? Okay, let's talk about that. So clomid has two components of it. It has end-clomaphine, which is the active ingredient that tells your pituitary to start producing more LH and that it has zoo-clomaphine, which is a longer-acting isomer that basically tells your body to produce more testosterone, but it has more estrogenic side effects that come with it. And because that drug was originally created for fertility purposes for women, that is the drug we call clomid. Now, clomid actually was acquired the generic version, interestingly, and the naming rights. So the industry now refers to it as clomaphine citrate, unless you have the ability to talk about it as clomid. So when people are prescribing clomid, it is a combination of both products. When people are prescribing end-clomaphine, it is the more pure, shorter-acting isomer of clomid that they're prescribed. Got it. Okay. And you were saying something before I interrupted to ask about the difference between clomaphine and clomid. Actually, let me, let me probably say this, right? So the, I do run what I was talking about. So for years, multiple drugs have been prescribed off-label. Here's a great example of another drug that hym cells, that's off-label, something called propranonol. It is technically for blood pressure, but it is also used for off-label purposes for migraines. You can take them prophylactically. It can be used for anxiety, which is what hymns is selling them for. And I know if you saw the Wall Street Journal just had an article that women are using propranol, pretty regularly, just to help themselves calm down. It's almost like a lighter version of Xanax. Another one, low-dose naltrexone. Low-dose naltrexone is actually for opioid addiction, but it has been found to help arthritis and immunity-based problems, and that is prescribed very regularly as well too. So what I would tell that person is, if physicians in the medical community have been using it for some period of time, and you've seen long-term data associated with it, specifically around side effects, then it's probably pretty safe to prescribe. And the track record with in clomaphine or clomet goes back 30 or 35 years now, is that right? I would even argue if not longer. Okay. We want to get into longevity. One question though about market sizing. How big is the market today, how big do you think it could become over the next five to 10 years, as the stigma around testosterone fades away and the idea of taking something like in clomaphine or clomet or even TRT becomes more and more common? Oh, this is a fun question. Okay. Because I ask, because I've seen some market projections, but I don't know that they're taking into account shifts in culture, and so I want your sense of that. So if you just take a look at the total number of men in the US that have low testosterone, it's 40 million. Now, of that 40 million, okay. There are only 10 million that are currently symptomatic, meaning you can have low testosterone, but if it is not causing problems, you shouldn't even have it treated. You should even look at it because it's not impacting your life negatively, most likely. So there's 10 million men that are currently symptomatic of the 10 million men. There's probably about a million five that are currently on treatment through known measures using kind of pharmacy-based data. Now, that also means there's a very large black market. There's a very large compounding part of the industry that no one's talking about. And so really when you think about the opportunity size, it's probably some element of that 10 million, plus maybe three to five million. I think what people don't realize is if you go talk to men in their late 30s and 40s, you go to a party. I would argue 10 to 15% of men will probably say that they are interested or on some form of TRT right now. And to your point, because the stigma is being reduced so rapidly, you see more and more people thinking it's acceptable. Now, let's also divide the market another time. There is a group of men that have the need, meaning they have a clinical need, they're hypogonatal and they have a testosterone level that is probably below 300 nanograms per desaliter in addition to the fact they're symptomatic. Then there's this other partner market. I'll call them straight optimization-based individuals. And those are people that may have very healthy testosterone levels, but because it's becoming destigmatized and the long-term research is actually better than we've hoped, they're taking it as well, too. And so, when you think about the market opportunity at any given time, do I think 15 to 20 million men will eventually be on testosterone in the US? I think it is a true statement, but I think we're probably five to 10 years out. Okay. Okay. Great. I'll turn it over to you, Patrick. Let's give it a little bit longer than a second, but just one quick follow up on the testosterone. What is the what do the age demographics look like on testosterone? And before you answer just my perception, which may not be accurate, is that certainly there's an age component, those who are older naturally lose a certain amount of testosterone over time. The second part I'm less sure of, which is there may be some environmental contributors, which may be affecting all sorts of age cohorts. So can you tell us a little bit about some of those those things and what does the customer base look like? Absolutely. Let's first talk about your let's address your first question and we'll talk about our customer base in a second. I think it's very instructive of where the market is going. So the average testosterone user in the country is 52. Okay. The average age of our user is actually 39. And so let's talk about the two dynamics that are happening. The first is, from the age of 30 onwards, you lose the ability to naturally produce one to two percent of testosterone per year. So that means by the time you're 40, you probably have lost the natural ability to produce 10 to 20 percent of your testosterone. Sorry. This starts at what age? So 30 years old. Oh wow. Okay, I'm 30. So I'll take. Yeah. Yeah. I just want to help me here. It's better than that, right? I just wanted to make sure given that yeah, I'm 30. Okay. Go on. I'm going to scare you for more. This is a thing. This is this is just not getting better. So then the most interesting thing though is when you look at it, 40% of men over 35 suffer from hormonal imbalances and low testosterone. And so the next question is, well, why is it happening? If you look at men 30 years ago, they had 26% more testosterone but wait for it. 50% more sperm. And to the prior point, when you start thinking about why this is happening, and it's going to sound conspiratorial, or at least it was when I first heard it, when you look at all the plastics, the fertilizers and our food and our drinking water. And for men, they actually resemble these estrogenic compounds. And that estrogenic compounds get into our body, and they tell that pituitary gland of ours that we have excess estrogen in our body and it interestingly shuts down our natural signaling. So not only are you getting older, but if you live in environments where we are actually getting sicker because of it as well too. Appreciate that background. It's interesting to know the demographics of the potential customer base. All right, so let's shift into longevity. Another issue that I'm interested in, I'm thinking older than both of you guys. And I think you said you're over 40. You don't look over 40 to me. I'm in my mid 40s. You're doing something right. All right. So longevity, I think, is sort of a new category. I certainly have been paying a little bit of attention. Don't pretend to have a whole lot of background on it. But let's do a little bit of background up first. What are some of the scientific advancements that are potentially out there that companies like yours are potentially looking at? And what is a potential revenue like? What's the future of this category looking like? But what's the present, I guess? What do we know that's different scientifically? I guess it's a really hard number to quantify because the definition of longevity is probably a little bit soft. And we're kind of in the bottom of the first in right now. And so when you say what's longevity, I could say maybe the whole wellness is industry's longevity, right? The low-end list is industries $5.8 trillion. That's not an accurate statement. But everyone in wellness will claim very longevity company. And so if you think about, there's kind of, I would say, two real ends of that spectrum. They're kind of very early longevity-based drugs that will impact things like senescent cells in your body. I think we're yet to see the true promise of those. Then we kind of have therapeutics that are currently available right now, which are used for everyday problems, that if you combine them, improve someone's longevity. And I would say that this is the world that most of us are playing it right now. And so the way to think about longevity is there's kind of like two main levers that you want to pull on. The first is you want to increase lifespan, that is meaning the total number of years that you live. But then there's other concept of health spans. I'm sure you guys have heard about quite regularly, which is how healthy can I be in those years that I live? And so also there are different therapies, supplements, therapeutics, modalities that you can use to increase your health span. But then there are other things you can do to increase your lifespan. And so we're at this point in time right now, we're starting to learn which is how to pull those levers. Now this is also very important. Most people think with longevity, if you take NAD or NMM, you're living longer. Maybe, but that is generally inaccurate. You have to think about your body as 10 to 15 different systems that are working together. And each of them are aging at a very different rate. And you have to figure out how to make each of those, you have to optimize each of those systems individually to make sure that they are not letting inflammation and disease set in in your body. Because disease setting in one part of your body could negatively impact another even though you're taking perfect care of it. So the name that I've heard most out there is a guy named David Sinclair. I think he went on Joe Rogan, got a lot of attention. I think he may have written a book called Health Span, maybe. Health Span. And I think they're selling products. I know that you mentioned NMM, NMM, am I getting them right? So I know there's supplements out there. I have no clue how effective they are. So either in terms of your customer base or I understand maybe you have a personal experience with this. So maybe tell us a little bit about what you've been doing with it. I know I don't think you're a doctor. I'm not giving doctors advice, but maybe you can share a little bit about what you're doing. Thank you very much. I am not a physician. And so this is not medical advice. I should have probably said the end of the day. I'm going to put that in the show notes as well. So a couple of things. So in my home office, I've got a hyperburectoxin chamber, I've got a cold plunge, I've got a sauna. And so that is the foundation of almost everything I do every day. Then I look at, we'll call it 90 to 120 biomarkers every 90 days. So I'm going to do a deep dive in my body. Every year, I'm looking at close to 500 biomarkers. I'm doing full body MRIs. I'm doing CCTAs, which are hard scans. I'm doing brain scans and doing microbiome testing. And from that, I've got a group of three or four physicians that basically start telling me, let's look at all of our organ systems individually and let's think about how we want to optimize our age. So in terms of the things that I'm on, I'm on 100 milligrams of TRT every single week. I'm on 500 units of HCG, which tells my body to help me naturally produce testosterone while I'm taking exogenous testosterone because taking exogenous testosterone by yourself will shut down natural sperm production. It's very important to do that. Second thing is I'm taking probably 12 different supplements. I can go into those supplements if we need to. And then I'm taking a bunch of different peptides. I recently tore my meniscus. And so I had to do quite a bit of work around accelerating recovery. And because of that, I'm on BPC 157, TB5, Pentosin, as well as a very light dose in Nandralone, which is decadurable, which is technically an antibiotic. And in addition to that, I also do injectable NR every two days. That's a lot. Now, do you, um, does your company sell testing kits for all this to sort of measure those biomarkers? That is correct. So our company, what we do is we go in and we test about 50 different biomarkers. After we look at those biomarkers, we sit you down with physicians for 30 to 45 minutes. So this is a synchronous consultation or you're speaking to a longevity physician that has a license. And then they're putting together a personalized protocol for you. Now, some of those things that I'm doing are not things that hone offers very specifically because I have a slightly higher risk tolerance. And would you do everything as conservatively and safely as possible as we can at home, but the thing which we are starting to do, which is, I think, incredibly exciting is we are now bringing in full-body MRIs. We just did a partnership with someone we're about to announce. We just did a partnership with a largest DNA methylation company. So we'll be able to look at all of the organ systems and the biological age of each of them. We just did a deal with a very large DEXIS scan franchise and we're adding DEXIS scans very quickly. We're about to do a deal with a CCTA provider, till DuParte scans. And it's incredibly important where the industry is moving is to be able to have multiple diagnostics so a person can be evaluated from multiple angles. One of the reasons why I asked that question is because hymns has got at home testing and I was curious to know how much of it overlapped with some of the longevity stuff I suspect quite a lot, although you just mentioned a bunch of things that presumably hymns does not yet do. So you guys have this 50 biomarker blood test. I saw on the website $65 per biomarker. Is that an at-home test, or do you go somewhere to do it? What's- what's 40? Just a quick correction. So it's $65 for the 50 biomarker test. Oh, for the entire thing, plus a 30 to 45-minute consult. 30 if you're men, 45 minute if you're women. It is arguably the single cheapest healthcare that you will buy. And the way to think about it is, this is a- you can either go to lab core or we will pay for someone to come to your house and to pull your blood. Okay. I was going to ask about the pricing because function, I think, tests over 100 biomarkers, super power we had the founder Max Markeoni on the show a few months ago. They do over 100 biomarkers as well, but it's all for a couple hundred dollars. I think in functions case, it's 500. So 65 is pretty competitive, not as many biomarkers, but I don't really know what you're getting for the- the other 50 or the other 100. So okay, good to have that comp. Was there anything else you wanted to ask about testing there, Patrick? Nope, that covers it. Okay. I want to move to weight loss quickly. I saw Lyorglutide on your website. You have a weight loss vertical. It's in the drop down. You don't offer GLP1's outside of Lyorglutide. Are you worried about the regulatory situation around Semaglutide and Terzapatide? Why aren't you like one of the hundreds of telehealth that have popped up in the last two years and are selling this stuff? That's a loaded question, isn't it? No, I see a new one on Facebook every day. I know all the founders and their printing money hand over fist. I mean, it is, it is unbelievable how some of these companies are springing up and they're doing 400 or 500 million dollars of run rate and majority of that's cash to the bottom of their balance sheet. So I used to work at Lilian Company. I ran market research and business development for $4 billion brand and my stance has always been that when they were ready, the hammer was going to drop and it was going to drop very hard. And so I took a stance of saying, hey, I don't want to necessarily sell compounded GLPs. By the way, I'm not against it at all. Just for our business, I don't want to take on that risk. Now, we are selling a load of Glutide. We are selling Zetbound through really direct right now. I do think it is an incredibly important tool in your toolkit for a longevity going forward. If I were looking at the tea leaves, you're looking at the mochi case, you're looking at the fella case, you're looking at the Henry meds case. I think Willow's in there too, right? Willow's in there and then strive just happened yesterday. Now, strive as a compounding pharmacy rather than a telehealth provider. It looks like the regulatory landscape is going to open up in the favor of compounded GLPs if I were a betting man, which by the way, the bet I took was we shouldn't do it and mass because once a farmer comes in, it's going to be ugly. So that's the bet you made, but you like what you're seeing for the compounders? I think the compounders, I think there's a very high probability the compounders will win in this particular instance. And I think this thing that is scary about it is it takes the central tenant that is the most important, we'll call it value creation tool in pharmacy, which is you get a 20-year patent protection life. And it is essentially threatening that very premise. And I think it will have very large implications for the rest of the industry for years to come, but it looks like at the point and time and place we are right now, compounders are going to win. It's clear you're watching this extremely closely. That's cool to hear that like the Founder CEO has total command of all of the cases that are happening, probably you know where they're happening to, and like who's covering it. And yeah, well, I mean, we'll see if the most favored nations, negotiations with the pharma companies impact the compounding situation. We've of course talked a lot about that, but yeah, we'll see. Based side back to you, we want to touch on peptides. Yeah, well, so GLP1's the PE is peptide, so we've already talked a little bit about a version of it, but let's talk about peptides more broadly. So, some are rellen and my pronouncing that correctly is a peptide that comes up a few times, has come up a few times with a few previous guests. What does that do? And when did you decide to start offering it? Okay, so we started offering it about a year and a half ago. There's an entire class, let's actually, let's take a step back. A lot of people don't necessarily understand what peptides are. So peptides are protein, messenger molecules that are already in your body. There are tens of thousands of them. Of the tens and thousands, 100 have been produced by compounding pharmacies of the 100, the 30 that are probably widely used right now, of the 30, only three of them, other than the GLPs are actually FDA approved and they're technically legal to sell. Cermer rellen is one of them. It is part of a group called some people will call them separate dogs or they'll be called secreted dogs. The way to think about it is in your pituitary gland, what we just talked about, there's a little sack and in that sack every single night, it fills up with growth hormone. And then as you sleep, that sack kind of pulses and releases growth hormone. The entire class of secret dogs, it tells your body to take the growth hormone that you're producing naturally and increase the pulse of it so you get more of it or to increase the strength of the pulse. Cermer rellen is a 29 string amino acid peptide that is FDA approved for growth hormone deficiency that tells your body to naturally produce light pulses of growth hormone in your body. The other one that I would actually say is far more effective is something called Tessa Morelin. Tessa Morelin is also far more expensive than Cermer rellen, which is the reason why we don't sell it. But it was actually FDA approved for what they call lipodistrophy, which is when AIDS patients take retrovirals, they end up getting this very kind of thick sheath of subcutaneous fat around their belly. And this Tessa was meant specifically to remove that. And so what I would say to people out there is if you have a choice between Tessa and Cermer rellen, go with Tessa. But by the way, Tessa is incredibly expensive, $1,200, $1,500 a month. And so the reason why we chose Cermer rellen is because it's far more accessible to the larger group of folks. So what are the other peptides out there? We've already talked about the one we just mentioned. We've mentioned the GLP1 variants. What else is out there that is of potential interest? We keep hearing about peptides like they're this magical category. On the other hand, we hear there's a lot of legal boundaries. So what is doable in that category in the near future? I just wanted to note, and maybe you could talk about this as part of the answer, that some of the peptides that you mentioned, sod, like BPC157 are not FDA approved. So that is short. It's a little bit about that. Maybe it's part of your answer. So let me just give you the history of what's approved and what's not approved and why that's the case. And we'll talk about which are the drugs and those categories. And then I'll tell you about the ones which I think are promising. And also why I feel comfortable taking that. So 2010s, there's a bunch of compounding pharmacy scandals that hit. 2013 in act is created that basically allows compounding pharmacies to work within a framework of what you're allowed to compound and not. There are three basic buckets. Category one, which is yes, you are allowed to compound this. Category two, which is, you know what, we don't really have good safety information, although we know it works, you shouldn't compound it. Category three, don't compound it at all. So when 2013 hit, and they were trying to figure out where each of these peptides fall, a bunch of peptides that didn't have safety information fell into Category one, which technically meant it was okay to compound them, but they didn't have FDA approval. So they sat in this kind of like weird gray space area. Then you have, we'll call it, I don't know if you guys ever heard of Taylor made. Just the golf company. Okay. So Taylor made was a compounding company in the 2020, 2021 era that became the largest provider of peptides within two years. The FDA said, hey, we want you guys to stop. They were making so much money. They said, no, we're not going to stop. Eventually the FDA came and the DEA came and they shut them down that sent a very loud message to the entire compounding industry, not to compound peptides anymore. For three years, everyone went completely quiet. Then what ends up happening right around that time is the regulators started saying, hey, a bunch of these Category one things, they're not really FDA approved. We should pull them off that list. So a lot of them get moved into the Category two list, which actually said you cannot, you cannot prescribe them so you cannot compound these. But the medical community had seen the impacts of them and they were like, this is bullshit. We should be able to prescribe them and compounders because it had been three years since Taylor made got shut down instead. You know what? They're not going to be enforcing this. Let's continue compounding them. And now we have this very large peptide craze. The peptides that are in the Category two list that are very interesting. One of them is BPC 157. One of them is thylin alpha. The other one is thymusin beta. Then you have Ipa morlin. You've got C.J.C. 1295. You've got epitonalone. You've got C.Lank and C.Vax as well too. Those are the ones that it probably say is where the majority of interest is right now. Okay. Jonathan, where do you get peptides? Where do you get BPC 157 if you don't mind? Okay, so there's two sources. Did you guys see the article a couple of weeks back that said everyone has a Chinese peptide dealer? No. Hold on, you should Google this article. It's outstanding. The main punchline is I live in New York City, right? I go to San Francisco, I go to LA. Everywhere I go, everyone's on peptides. It's a thing. That's interesting. I'm in New York too. Maybe it's my friends. I don't know. We're not on them, but I'm on tech Twitter. Most of my Twitter are these people in San Francisco. It does feel like they are all on peptides. I'm not lying when I say this. My mom is 65 years old and it works in the county. They run the finance team over there. All her friends are peptides and she's and she's in where with all these old New York City is in New York. Okay. Right. I guess like that when you I mean when you saw Sinclair, Atea, Dr. Ronda Patrick, and a T and Huberman, start talking and endorsing peptides and then you saw all of the RSO or research only organizations selling peptides like peptide sciences pop up. It became so incredibly easy. Now the problem became is how can you control for quality because the majority of them are having them shipped over from China. And so what that really means is that people were saying, you know what? I don't care about the risks because these things sound magical and I'm going to buy them in mass and I'm going to go get insulin pins for my local pharmacy and I'm just going to start injecting things and having conversations with everyone around and it's spread like wildfire. The numbers I've heard on the RSO, not even compounding pharmacies. The RSO peptide sites that are selling Chinese peptides, massive. I mean, it makes most of our companies look small. So now you can get your BPC from any just type in BPC into Google and I promise you will find 10 different sites that you can purchase them. Shemath actually just financed a company that is testing the purity of all the illegal peptides being sold so you can know if what's the best quality. Now myself. Shemath, Palahapiti of all in and social capital on Facebook. Yeah. Okay. Now, where I get my peptides is I have access to what I think is probably the 5.0, the best 503 pharmacy in the country producing peptides for me and a bunch of physicians. And so I go directly there. And is that a 503A or 503B pharmacy? 503A. Okay. Wow. Gosh, I probably have more questions on that, but we maybe we'll come back. Any follow-ups real quickly, Patrick? No. Okay. Well, here's one. Him's owns a peptide facility now, right? But him's is also a publicly traded, you know, $10 billion market cap company. If you were Andrew Doodham, which peptides would you start with? I'd start with the safest ones. And the two safest ones that I think, right, when you think about peptides, right, if you if you do them right, you should cycle them. You can't just take them in straight line of every single day. But there are certain peptides. We'll even call it BPC and diamonds and beta. Then you can take every single day for the rest of your life. I'm on them. I got my mom on them. I got my wife on them. And the reason being is that one, they're incredibly gentle. It's very hard to overdose on these things. Two, they basically help reduce immunity and help speed up recovery. And those are things that almost all of us need because as we get older, those functions start decreasing. And I don't know if you know about the science, but like as you when you're young, you have thymus gland. Your thymus gland is incredibly active. As you get older, thymus gland basically shinks, shrinks and becomes not existence. One of the reasons why you have problems with immunity, cancer causing cells in your body. And so thymus and alpha and beta is just basically replacing that function that you lost. And BPC is called body protective complex. It is gastric juice produced by your stomach right now that helps safeguard the lining of it that helps joints and let tendons and ligaments heal a little bit faster and keeps you more supple as you age. Those are problems that we all have as we age regardless. And so those are those are things that I will take for the rest of my life. All right, let's pivot to business strategy quickly. Specifically meta ads. Two things around meta ads. Number one, at the turn of the year meta announced that they'd be making some privacy policy changes impacting healthcare and telehealth companies advertisements. Number two, the FDA recently cracked down on D to C pharmaceutical advertising. I imagine Facebook and Instagram ads are a big reason you've been able to scale to nine figures of ARR in six years or five five years. Are you worried about either of those things? Like first, firstly, has the meta ad privacy policy change? Whatever it was, I don't know the specifics of it impacted your business at all. And then tell us sort of looking into the future about the FDA crackdown. All right, so let me take two steps back and just quickly talk about the stance we had around selling testosterone when we started and it will directly inform this question. Great. When we started the business and whenever you start a venture back business, you're saying, I want to be the biggest of X in the country, right? You almost have to be to lose think delusional large, which I think we probably are. That means I basically sat my wife down and I said, hey, look, I want to become the largest provider of testosterone, which is a controlled substance in the country. And she said, don't go to jail. That said, don't worry. I'm being said, this is a very real conversation. And so when you then start to think about, well, how do you do it in the most conservative way possible and put up more guardrails and you probably need to? It engineers your strategy from day one going forward. Most testosterone providers will measure you once and they will give you product if your cash is great. Maybe they'll test you once every year. The American urological association wants you to test twice before you prescribe to someone to make sure someone is truly hypergenaddled and has a clinical need for testosterone. So the way our process works is we do a test, we then do a consult, and then we make you do a second test if you want to control substance. People hate it. They complain about it. It's more friction in the process. We probably lost 80 million dollars of customers because of it, but it is the right thing to do from a safety profile. The second thing we did, we said because we think that the regulators will be hyper focused on us, let's make sure that our ads are all compliant from day one. So I'm already putting safety and side effect information on my ads. I've been doing it for three and a half years at this point in time. And so there's, so the other side of that is I also also sell a process. That's what I focus on. Let me test you. Let me do a consult and we don't know what's going to happen after that consult in terms of medications. And so those ads don't need fair and balanced safety information because we are talking about how we will help you understand what you mean. The ads we do have, and I can actually validate this because I went on Facebook Marketplace last night or library just to make sure this is a true statement. Every single one of our ads that mentioned TRT have side effect information. And by the way, they decrease conversion. The moment you put them on, people say I don't want this, but it is the right thing to do. How many words, though, are the, do you have to make space for now? My understanding is that you have to like show all of the side effects now, right? I think there's, it's open to interpretation, but general rule of thumb is. And this is what we're, what we're being guided on. If you have a minute along commercial, it should be 30 seconds of benefits, 30 seconds of side effects. And it shouldn't be said incredibly fast. It should be said in a way that someone can actually understand it and grasp it rather than just going as quickly as possible so people can actually understand. That theoretically also applies to ads as well too, where 50% of your ad is benefits, 50% should be side effects. And that's kind of the rule that we followed. On the meta ad privacy policy changes from earlier this year, any impact to your business side? Yeah, a little bit, although not as bad as, not as bad as June of 21 when the entire world experienced Facebook and I was changes. Interesting to hear that there was an impact though. The CEO of NUM Jeff Cook came on the show, said that they dealt with it, had to deal with it for maybe a couple of weeks, but it was some, the impact was somewhat minimal. So that, by the way, I would, that is a true statement. You definitely saw it, but it wasn't the kind of thing that was going to change your business over, I think. Okay. All right. Good to have a second data point on that. Yes. Back to you, Patrick. Well, so I'll give you a heads up. The next question, not this one. We're going to look into your crystal ball into the future one, three and ten years out. Let's say, but before we do that, I've got a couple of odds and ends that we'd like to address and then we'll get into that future oriented question. So first one on my list anyway, I'm told I don't actually know this, but I think I've got some notes here that say you supposedly think primary care is in trouble. Is that true? And if so, why? So this will probably feed into your last question in terms of where I think the world is going. I think this thing that we call longevity care, that's kind of the kind of ambiguous and primary care will collide into each other and some significant portion of primary care will become longevity care. And that sounds like a very far fed statement. So let's talk about why I believe that to be true. Well, longevity care in my mind is kind of like three very distinctive verticals right now as it exists today. There is the diagnostic portion of it. There is the analysis portion, which if we're being honest, is going to be mediated by AI and everyone has access to it. So it kind of is like just a baseline to even play the game very shortly. And then the third one is providing a longitudinal care for patients more complex, more complexity, the harder it is. I think the world of diagnostics right now is essentially going to zero, meaning full body MRIs used to be $2,500. They're now $500. 100 biomarkers used to be $1,200. It's now $80. Right. Got microbiome testing used to be $700, not $35. And so a lot of these companies out there that are selling diagnostics and scale. I think they're basically playing a zero sum game and everyone will want it cheaper and cheaper and cheaper. And that's what we're seeing happening by the way. You see the company is dropping their prices all the time trying to compete for as many customers in as possible. And so I'm actually a little bit bearish on those companies. But with that we'll essentially allow us to do is consumers that never had access to this advanced diagnostic testing. We'll be able to come in and say for the price of a really good dinner, I'm going to be able to get three or four diagnostics. Everyone is going to wrap those up with some level of AI, and then you're going to have some kind of care on the back end. And so that's kind of the promise of what primary care was supposed to do. And I think it's failed us in so many ways. And I think that the paradigm shift that we're seeing at people proactively going in and doing the diagnostics care will shift from being more reactive to proactive. And you'll start engineering your health far more. And then also kind of you think about the world and the way shaping up with social media and just the proliferation of conversations around zeitgeist, it argues kind of the I'm sorry, longevity kind of is the zeitgeist right now. The moment you start seeing people look and act younger at any given age, you immediately say I want that. And then when you hear what they paid, you're like, wait, I can do that for a couple hundred dollars or I can do that for and all the sudden it kind of like starts spreading very rapidly. And I think that a lot of people are replacing their primary care with a company like ours. And I'll give you an actual example, right. The average price point of my service is $200, $25 per month. I'm going to give you three income categories, 50 to 100, 100 to 150, 150 plus. What percentage of my patients fall into each of those income categories? Knowing it's a $200 plus product per month. And it is a subscription-based product. What are your guesses? Which products said? We'll call it right. So it's a great question. So our core business is $150 per month subscription plus the cost of medications. So on average, it's $200 to $225 a month to be a patient of ours. And your question again, what proportion is your customers? Are in 50 to 100, 100 to 150 and 150 plus? I would normally assume it's a higher income group. That's that's what everyone would write. 60% of my patients come from the $50 to $100,000 category. What is that set? Because that's a massive number. It says that lower income folks right now either don't have insurance or have primary here that is unsuccessfully giving them what they're looking for. And as a class, they're saying, I'm willing to spend $200 per month of my cash after taxes in order to get this form of longevity care, which helps me stay younger. And I think right at just the beginning of the shift we're starting to see right now of the move into this thing we call longevity care. And the goal is quite literally to get it as cheap as possible. So you can get it to more people and democratize care. That's interesting. We're going to turn to the final question in a second. I do remember, doodam was on an interview. I think it was in April of this year. And he said at that time, something similar to what you just said, he said he wants to get the cost down to essentially zero. He wants to build it into what he called a membership to him. I'm not sure exactly how that would would play out, but that seems to be the vision where he wants to go. It seems to be aligned with what you just said. Last question. So we're looking into your crystal ball. One year ahead, three years ahead, 10 years ahead. Take us through the future, you know, either for the industry or for our own health. What are we looking at? What's coming down the record pike? Okay, so for the industry, let's start there. Within five years, companies like mine, which are offering what I'll call full stack care, diagnostics, some level of AI and physician care, I think we're going to see a lot of them. And I think you see a ton of them popping up already, by the way, right? I think where companies were stumbled is when they start trying to provide longitudinal care to patients that are getting more complex over the course of time, it's really hard. I mean, I can't tell you how difficult it is just for testosterone alone. There's 31 million permutations over a patient's clinical care journey, the first year alone, and that's with three medications and eight biomarkers. And so imagine how much more complex it gets. So I think the industry as a whole will start moving that way. We're seeing it happen very rapidly. I think there will be a couple players that figure out how to do it at scale because you're having to do a lot of side effects and kind of what I'll call gnarly medical conditions that are more difficult to treat virtually rather than in a brick and mortar setting. And so it's have to start building real relationships and off ramps with what I'll call like acute care center or hospital centers. 10 years from now, I think will be in a world where we are fully engineering our health, meaning you will come in, we will look at 10 to 15 different diagnostics over the course of a month. We'll be putting together incredibly personalized plans based upon your epigeno and your habits. That's important because you can tell someone something is wrong with them all day long, but if it doesn't fit into their lifestyle, it will be completely useless. And then you will be helping people reduce their biological age in a quantifiable manner that is backed by real evidence. And I think that it's almost a foregone conclusion in terms of where we're going to question us how fast do we get there? Okay. Jonathan kicking it back to you to wrap up. Well, it's like we have a couple minutes, so I'll ask you this. Sada, are you bullish your bearish on hymns? Long-term bullish. Why? Well, first of all, I'm a holder of hymns. Let's get that out of the way. Second of all, I think that the underlying infrastructure they built to produce a superior gross margin business is very difficult to replicate for players coming into the space right now. Let's start there. Second, you're saying they have a moat? That's not an ongoing joke, not much of a controversy, but go ahead. If you look at the way venture dollars are flowing right now, there are fewer venture dollars flowing into this category. And so that means they will be fewer upsides, they can probably catch up. And right, the folks that can catch up, we can count on one hand, and we probably know how they're all doing behind closed doors. And I don't think there's one that's quite coming up on the heels of them that have an operating structure as sophisticated as they do from my understanding. And I'm pretty deep into the industry. And then I also think too, this is going to be, this one's going to sound kind of right. I think hymns has the biggest balls in the industry. And I don't mean that. And I mean that like, who else is going to put a 30-foot picture of a cactus from the side of the building in New York City? You're going to look the entire pharmaceutical industry in the face, throw them a middle finger, and say, "I'm going to produce one of your best sellers." And I don't care what you say. I think they take bets that make me say, "Good job." Good job. Cool. All right, say that again, Patrick. I'll just send you guys are both in New York City, so you get to see the subway ads and the building ads. Two things. I'll just say, I walked through the Times Square subway station recently. It was like a Serena Williams. What's the term? Mirror maze. I had never seen so many ads on polls in places that I didn't know companies could purchase. It was unbelievable. So, Roe didn't come up, but that's probably a company you had in mind that is, I'd say, a little behind hymns for sure, but doing what they can to catch up will see. Second thing, night hawk. I don't know if you've seen him on Twitter. I follow him. Yep. Great. Tweeted at Andrew yesterday, because I don't know how this came up, but he quoted Andrew's photo of that cactus in Times Square stretching up 50 feet and said, "Hey, Andrew, do them. Let's see something like this again soon," because it's been a while since we've seen hymns in the subway or in Times Square or doing anything like that. Outside of the GOP1s, which is a statement on its own. We're at three o'clock, so I'll let you go. Just wanted to say so. Thank you so much for being a part of hymns house. I don't know, we asked you some questions that I wasn't sure we'd get a full answer on, but you approached everything really head on and just wanted to say thanks so much. Of course. Yeah, more than happy to be on.