EP: 464 Dynasty of Slaves: Finding the Exodus in Ancient Egypt with BLK SHP Scott

If you're like us, you're out there looking for that story, that true story. You're down that rabbit hole. You want something that's authentic, one of a kind, and you don't want to be fooled with things that are just knockoffs. No, you want the real deal, and you want the best you can get. You want a cashmere sweater that's like the chest hair on Burt Reynolds. That's right. Where can you find that, Nate? Quinn's. It focuses on high-quality wardrobe staples and premium materials like 100% Mongolian cashmere, organic cotton, or merino wool. The styles are timeless, versatile, just like back in the 80s when everything was iconic. And the weather's changing, right? A lot of us need to start thinking about, hey, we've been wearing shorts and tees all summer. It's time to get into the fall wardrobe. A lot of us are looking and saying, hey, I don't want to wear that same thing I wore all last fall. I want some 100% Mongolian cashmere sweaters that start at $60. That's right. I want premium pants, fitted tees, and polos. All these things can be found at Quinn's. That's right, and everything at Quinn's is 50% to 80% off from other similar brands, and they work directly with ethical factories, and they cut out the middleman, so you're paying for high-quality, no-brand markup. It's like you're in a time machine going back to the days when they made things really good. You know, I love what I've gotten. They've got some amazing staples, some really good 100% cotton tees I wear all the time, and there's a merino sweater that I'm about to break out here for the fall weather. So find your next fall favorites at Quinn's. Download the Quinn's app for app-exclusive offers or go to quinn's.com slash blurry. You get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns, Nate. It's now available in Canada, so if you live in America's hat, you can get it as well, and the UK. That's q-u-i-n-c-e.com, quinn's.com slash blurry. close your eyes, exhale, feel your body relax, and let go of whatever you're carrying today. Well, I'm letting go of the worry that I wouldn't get my new contacts in time for this class. I got them delivered free from 1-800-CONTACTS. Oh my gosh, they're so fast. And breathe. Oh, sorry. I almost couldn't breathe when I saw the discount they gave me on my first order. Oh, sorry. Namaste. Visit 1-800-CONTACTS.com today to save on your first order. 1-800 CONTACTS. You've watched Prince of Egypt. The angel of death passes over, but then goes into the Egyptian homes, and it's all little children that are dying. Yeah. And I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. It didn't say little children. It said the firstborn. The firstborn are the heads of household. The firstborn are not all children. Right. I'm not technically the firstborn, but like, there's. I am. I'd be. You're a firstborn? Adios. You'd be gone, brother. Yeah, that's it. Head of household, yeah. So like, the targeting was not, hey, we're going to take all of their children and make them really sad. It's, I'm going to go and take all of the heads of the household. So it was a military strategy, you're saying. It's a military strategy, and it's not this, like, cruel targeting children. It's specifically targeting the heads of household. It's the assassination of the leaders of the clans. The history of our Earth is so different from what we can imagine. The Smithsonian, if they found out about a large skeleton somewhere, was to go get it. I'm going to assume at least one person is right, because if one person's right, it busts the paradigm. It all goes back to the fallen cherub. And the problem with the modern-day church, they have a very truncated view of the supernatural. This backdrop that's just pregnant with all kinds of meaning associated with this Mount Hermon event. And this guy defects from the kingdom. That's a big deal. Luke, this show's going. Coast to coast today. Blurry creatures. We got our guests from Jacksonville, and I'm beaming in live from Mount Hermon into Santa Cruz, California. Not the real Mount Hermon. Down in the apex of the vortex, is what you like to call it. Yeah. Very close to the mystery spot in Santa Cruz. There are no rights of hell, hopefully, at this Mount Hermon since the Christian summer camp for families and kids. But we're having fun today. We've got Scott from Black Sheep Bible Talk is in the house. And we're going to be talking about dynastic Egypt and the evidence for the Israelites actually being there. And believe it or not, this is a contested issue when it comes to archaeology. But you've been doing a ton of work. You've got, you host a show on YouTube. You are finishing an MA in Biblical Studies at Baptist University of Florida. Nate was a former Baptist, so he's walking right alongside you there. I think I'm still Baptist. Are you? You're still baptized. I don't know. That's good. It sticks with you. It sticks with you. I still believe in baptism. It's fine. There you go. Yeah. Yeah. Dude, we're glad to have you on the show. We're going to, we're going to get, we're going to get into it. We're going to 200 years. We're going to move the lens 200 years and talk about evidence that was never missing for Moses, the Israelites, and the epic of Exodus. And, but first, Nate. Yeah. This is your first time on the show, Scott. So we have to- Yeah. You can't be the only black sheep out there. That we don't ask this question to. So what are your thoughts on Bigfoot? Well, I mean, I was going to ask you a question. I actually was rehearsed this question on my way up here. Let's go. I like to rehearse questions. Or is there more than one Bigfoot? And if so, is it Bigfeet? Yeah. This is a great question. For sure. There's a comedian that I loved who would, who had a bit on plurals, Nate and Scott. And it was like, it was like moose and moosen, you know, or oxen. And he was trying to figure it out. The one I always go with is when I lived in Wisconsin for a year. So shout out to Wisconsin. They talk about beer, right? And instead of saying I had like two beers or five beers, they say I have five beer. And their logic, which is really hard to refute is like, well, how many deer did you see out there? Did you see four or five deers? Or did you see five, four or five deer? And I go, okay, I get it. But I don't know about Bigfoot. That's a good question. Bigfoot, big feet. Well, it's funny. Over time, Scott, I would say Bigfoot doesn't even sound like what it's describing. It's like it's become its own actual name, you know, but it's just the most generic name for the creature that ever. He's probably mad that he wishes he had a better branding. Like that's all I'm known for. I don't have a cooler name, like gargantuan or something. The cool thing though is you can actually, you can switch vernacular if you need to. You can go, there's a pack of squatches out there. Sasquatches. Well. Yeah. Well actually, let me think about this. There are 14 Sasquatch. This is, see, now we have a problem. It's the same problem. See? 'Cause I'm thinking- It's hard no matter what. If we got another, like a, is it the Zapruder film? Is that what it is? Yeah, yeah. If there's another one and this time he's like holding hands with his girlfriend, is that two Bigfoots or are we looking at two Bigfeet? This is, I think that along with Bigfoot would be maybe an enduring mystery. Yeah. At least for now, dude. I like it. It's like the end of Harry and the Hendersons when he walks off with his family. Yes. Does he walk? Yes. I forgot about that. How do you describe that scene, Scott? Yeah. They look at all those Bigfoot. So that's it? That's all, that's your thoughts? Are you, or- Yeah, we just, we got, we're on plurals today. It's a big, it's a big deal. Okay. I assumed that we were all gonna like be on the same page that Bigfoot's a thing. It's just a matter of how do we- Yeah, how do we- How do we like classify him? What's the taxonomy of Bigfeet? This is great. I mean, so if you have the skunk ape down in Florida, which you do- Oh. Oh, I've got stories about skunk apes in Florida. Well, give us one here. This is what we're here for. Oh, my son. So my son is a Civil War reenactor. And, but the very fact that I'm mentioning- Let's go. I love that, dude. The very fact that I'm mentioning him on Blurry Creatures, he's gonna lose his mind. But he was, I drop him off on the weekends and he does his Civil War reenacting thing and he brings his grays and his blues just in case, you know, he needs to fight on the wrong side. And I won't tell you which side that is. That's great though. Like we leave it a mystery. But one time he was walking from like the ball or whatever, where they go to dancing back to the camp and you have to walk through the woods. And he said he was absolutely certain that he came across the skunk ape on the way back between, it was like in the pine scrubs of North Florida. Yeah. And he said he stood there for a solid 20 minutes waiting for it to move. He said he was looking up in this tree and he said it was not the shape of anything like moss, like we have, you know, Spanish moss in Florida. He was like, it's not that, it was not that, it was not a tree branch. He said it moved at first and then it froze when he froze. And he stood there looking at it for 20 minutes and then he slowly walked off and it just kind of faded into the dark, it was pitch black. But he thinks that he saw the skunk ape in Florida. Did he smell it? No, he said he didn't smell anything. Interesting. This one was well-groomed and well-bathed. Yes, I guess so. What's his name? Maybe he was upwind. My son's name or the skunk ape? You can shout him out. Oh, his name is Lucas. A great name. Lucas, what up? There's only a few of us out there. Good to know you. No, I shout out the 37th Alabama. Shout out the 37th Alabama. They're in Florida, but they're named after the Alabama. Let's go. He didn't see the eyes or anything? No, he didn't. No, it froze when he froze. He said it was moving and then when he froze, like a split second later, it froze and it was like a standoff. Yeah. And he heard some people kind of coming up from behind him and he felt uneasy about it, so he left. But he was 13 at the time. That's wild. Well, you know, Scott, Luke likes to do trivia in the office with the staff around and asks him about the top three states of Bigfoot sightings. Yeah, we've done this before. Yeah. Yeah. And Florida makes it. And guess what? Florida makes it. Oh, yeah? Top three sightings. Weirdly. There's the usual suspects like Washington State, like, you know, obviously like Washington State and then Pacific Northwest. But Florida actually ranks up there in the top three, at least since the time that we pulled the numbers. I don't know if we've gotten anything different. Because all that stuff in Ohio that happened with the Ohio flap, right, Nate? We did an episode on that. I hope that bumped their numbers up, but I think Florida's still in the running. And who knows? Maybe sometimes they misidentify Florida man as a skunk. I was going to say. I was going to say. There's a lot of weird things going on down there. I wonder if that tracks also with the type of people that live in the region. Because I imagine that Missouri, the Ozarks is probably up there as well. There's just some interesting folks in different parts that might see things. Well, dude, let's get into it. So for people who are listening to the show and introduced to you for the first time, quickly, can you talk about what Black Sheep is and what questions you guys keep poking at or trying to answer and really what you're doing with your channel? And then we're going to get into the book after that. But let's just introduce our audience to you and what your ministry and what you do. All right. So Black Sheep, I didn't intend it to be anything other than just me making the videos about the things that I'm interested in, which is probably not too far off from what you guys started. There's probably a lot of other people that are interested in the things you're interested in. But I'm interested in biblical history and the mysteries of history. As you go further back into biblical history, things get blurrier. You get less and less clarity as you get further and further away. And so I wanted to bring my experience and learning from my academic side into something that's a little bit more accessible to normal people. I think Dr. Heiser actually called it Middle Earth Scholarship or something like that. There's like the church side Sunday school where you kind of get the application, but not much depth. And then you get the scholarly academic side where it's all depth and it's kind of hard to parse what's going on. And then there's the Middle Earth. And he felt he was in that space. And I was like, you know what? I want to be in a space with Dr. Heiser. I mean, I'm not going to actually rub elbows with him, but that's something I think that would be helpful for people. So that's what I kind of do. I kind of bring, I try to bring the scholarly world into something a little bit more accessible and I do it through mostly storytelling. So I try to, I try to teach through the stories of a biblical history, not just kind of spouting facts and dates. That's awesome. So what about the book then? So you said you spent years writing this book and we talked pre-roll and I'll share that. You said this is actually probably the second, the middle book, if you will, in a series you're writing. But you started with Egypt and you know, why here? And what about this like scratch niche for you? That you wanted to, to dive into the archeology? Cause this is a, this is a big topic. If you're listening, we talked about the pyramids, Nate, we've talked about construction of the pyramids and the Sphinx and how old, and is this antediluvian and we've gotten into what are the pyramids? Obviously they're not tombs, et cetera. Yeah. We also talked to Joel Richardson about Mount Sinai, you know, where he thinks, the location of Mount Sinai and yeah. And the crossing, you know, where they crossed and, um, even some Noah's Ark. stuff too a little bit with him um there seems to be like the local stories of where these things happen and they seem to know because those stories were passed down from generations and then there's like the modern what people where where people want it to be and i could we could tell early on those two things didn't usually correlate so which which which is good for i think people who are skeptics be like look there's there's evidence that it could have been this place or that place you know and it doesn't it doesn't discount the story and we're looking back through you know a couple thousand years of church history fog of lore and mythology and i mean the medieval times was this this massive run of superstition that um was mostly disconnected from reality and disconnected from biblical like the biblical story so when you hear fawn regenerative luke what do you think of they go hey that's the fawns actually i think of wolverine just being able to regenerate back in the day when we were watching our kids but that's not the fond regenerative we're talking about what we eat should not be a mystery and that's where fawn comes in fawn was started at a farmer's market in 2015 by a couple the sealants uh alyssa had a health crisis that led her to bone broth and other traditional ways of eating and it changed her life uh and they wanted to make it easier for others to do the same most people don't know that most store-bought bone broth is actually made from a concentrate powder like back in the day dude just put a little powder in and mix it in no that's what they're doing with bone broth now no fond is different mate it's slow simmered in stainless steel kettles with an artisan process that makes every drop delicious it's now sold nationwide in stores like sprouts and whole foods and they're giving everyone access to real food with real ingredients from farmers they know and trust and here's the best part luke how do we get into the fawn zone it's the bone zone baby you can find them online at fondregenerative.com and use the code bone zone for 15 off your order of real nourishing bone broth and more no blurry business here like concentrates and powders just delicious bone broth straight from the bone zone that's good enough to sip on or use in your favorite recipes and it's delicious let me tell you my mother-in-law came to town recently and she made some pasta with the bone broth and it was phenomenal that's fond regenerative.com code bone zone for 15 off your order so we're looking back through time and kind of parsing what have church fathers said what have what have you know church leaders said who were not necessarily in the the apostolic or the patristic era and then we're trying to kind of parse what's what's real or what's reliable i should say yeah um so like you get to the the sinai question and historically for hundreds or maybe over a thousand years the place in the southern sinai peninsula has been like the of course that's sinai and now for the most part that's mostly not what people think mostly people think it's actually in the arabian peninsula northwest arabian peninsula and so of course when that first kind of starts to shift people get really upset yeah because you're messing with tradition right so these people have rather whether you like it or not there's if you have a thousand years of pilgrimage to a singular site you've got to really like bust through all of the pageantry tradition and people don't want to let go of those things um very easily even if you have a lot of evidence say hey was it helen that just picked it kind of like that's why honestly yeah yeah it's with the the mother of of augustine augustine i'm trying to think of yeah yeah yeah that's mother augustine yeah and so and she went down and she found like the church of the holy sep founded the church of the holy septic and then and then this is sinai so you've got i mean church tradition and all these things you go up against and i think it's not different than a lot of ways than what we're doing here with egypt right because as we go to egypt academia will say there is no evidence for exodus we look we're looking in and and it's not there and so tell me what you're contending and why why you believe that maybe looking in the wrong place and what's happening when we look for evidence of all these slaves a million people leaving egypt that moses uh and people like you know zawas and all these egyptologists and everybody else in traditional egypt tradition will say it's not here this never happened right we know we can't have a million people to leave egypt or leave the desert there's no moses yeah um you're taking on a big a big machine of academia here when you're doing this uh so where where do you start i i are we looking in the wrong place yeah we're looking in the wrong place just as because i know that you'll probably get comments i i think it's actually the mother of constantine constantine sorry augustine fix that for me ben the same era same or same century and yeah yeah so it's the mother of constantine helen that picks out these places when she goes on her pilgrimage yeah and this yeah it predicates a lot of different things for for what we consider the holy sites in the holy land including sinai yeah so if you're writing your comment correcting luke or me right now we we figured it out all right we got it um yeah so the the problem um that i identified in the very in the introduction of the book is that uh for a very long time we've been looking in the wrong century looking at the wrong pharaoh looking at the wrong set of circumstances and if you're looking at the wrong century you're not going to find israelite slaves you're not going to find a catastrophe you're not going to find an exodus you're not going to find a sudden population decline in egypt you're not going to find economic hardship nothing right right it's the zenith of egypt's power during ramses the great his ramses ii his like that's when egypt is at its peak so you're not going to find the exodus there because the exodus was um devastating to egypt why scott why why do you think that's the location or the era that everyone has looked for this at what's the reasoning that everybody goes to ramses there's literally just one thing and it's in exodus one it says they built the cities the store cities of pithom and ramses rameses okay um and so they say oh well there you go the city of rameses was built by rameses and so they must have been like the the the writer of exodus must have been identifying that pharaoh as the one that he wanted to connect his lore to or to a great pharaoh and that you know the story of the of the israelites was toppling the great pharaoh of egypt and they wanted to connect the lord to that and so this is kind of also part partly connected to this documentary hypothesis that says that the old testament especially everything from kings forward or chronicles forward i guess you could say was written during the babylonian exile and so this like academic theory called the documentary hypothesis that says that nothing of that was history it was all mythology written to kind of catch up to the ancient near eastern babylonian histories and so they stole from the epic of gilgamesh they stole from the atrahasis they stole from all of these things and created their own story and um that they kind of connect that too well obviously rameses is couldn't have been the pharaoh of the exodus because he was so powerful and therefore it's all mythology and yeah i disagree yeah and why but what is what is it biblically speaking because you're biblical historian so what is it that right you think they're looking in there they're looking in the wrong place well there's a couple things i mean the bible itself says that the um that the temple was built 480 years after it began to be built 480 years after the exodus of the law was given at sinai And so that puts us, well, we know fairly certain when the first temple, Solomon's Temple, was going to be built or began being built. And so if you go 480 years before that, you end up at 1446 or 1445 BC, not 1200 to the 13th century BC, which is where Ramesses is. You go right past that all the way to the 15th century BC and a completely different dynasty altogether. And so the dynasty is, all of Egypt is in a different situation politically and economically. You start to see the chronological key fit in the lock and the pins start to click in place like a key does. And so once you do that, you move to 1446 BC for the Exodus, you can see the story unfold. You can see Israel there. What's happening? What's different? Can you lay that kind of line? Can you lay this at the scene, if you will, for what's different about 1446 BC and the epic or the zenith of Ramesses? What's happening in Egypt then that makes it much better fit in your mind for this saga? That's the whole book. So there's a lot of pieces. Really, there are so many pieces that it was worth writing a whole book. And even the book itself is not all the pieces just because I wanted to make it accessible. But you get the Pharaoh himself. Most people who have an early date for Exodus, they typically will take a high chronology of the Egyptian chronology because Egyptian chronology has three different versions of itself. There's the high in the middle and the low chronology. So you kind of have to take the high chronology, which is the original idea of the timeline of Egypt based on their own king's list, which is also kind of itself late. That's by an Egyptian historian named Manetho. So if you take that high chronology and you take the early Exodus date from based on the date of the 10th, then you end up at 1446. You end up with a Pharaoh named Amenhotep II, who's the Pharaoh of the Exodus in that case. And then you say, OK, well, does Amenhotep II match and line up with the guy that we see as the Pharaoh of the Exodus in the book of Exodus? And you start to see, actually, yes, that makes much more sense. We found his mummy is covered in boils or scarring from boils. He has a son who becomes Pharaoh, but that son who becomes Pharaoh is not the legitimate heir. His name is Thutmose IV, and he has to build. He created a stele, which is like one of those like big, I say concrete, stone carved tablets with a story on it. And in his story, it's kind of like a proof of why he's the legitimate Pharaoh. And we would say that's because the legitimate heir died in the 10th plague. And so the story lines up. There's something else connected to Amenhotep II that I think a lot of people don't realize. Or don't know about, I guess. But about a year or two years after what we would say is the Exodus, Amenhotep II leads a campaign into Canaan. He leads a slow campaign, so no chariots involved. He leads a slow campaign into Canaan, and he brings back the largest slave haul that's recorded in any Egyptian history at all. Over 100,000 people he brings back from Canaan, from the land like Egypt was. Canaan was like a vassal state. So he went there, brought back over 100,000 Canaanites as slaves. And it's like this stele that shows he's like a victorious king bringing back a lot of slaves. And there's no reason to bring back that many slaves all at once unless you had a sudden loss of a lot of slaves right before that. And you needed to replenish. Because otherwise you wouldn't have domiciles. You wouldn't have a place for all 100,000 plus people to live or put them to work just out of the blue. Right. You'd have to kind of create, you'd have to build a city to house them when they got back. But if the Exodus had just happened, there's an empty city waiting for them. There's empty slave domiciles ready for them and work to be done as soon as they get back. So this is after the, so let's go, all right, let's go to the beginning. I want to lay the case out here, if you will, for this. I know that we can start in 1876 BC. Yeah. And that's kind of, that's where we begin to see, what are the book, the patriarchs are, because obviously before we have this Exodus, we have the story of Joseph and him being in Egypt and rising to power. But where, that's where you kind of started the book. So who is Abisha and why does the painting on a tomb wall matter to the story of Abraham and to the sort of, to unraveling the history and setting the stage for the patriarchs that will eventually, you know, allow for the rise of this population of ancient Hebrews and Israelites in Egypt. Yeah. Back in the eighties, sitting in this basement, watching episodes of Mr. T and the iconic man had more gold hanging off his neck than ancient Egyptian Kings. I hope he held onto it because that would be quite the investment today with the appreciation of that precious metal. And if you want to get some gold like Mr. T, where do you go? Gold Co. That's where we went, Nate. And that's where we'll continue to go. They help everyday folks move a portion of their life savings into physical, gold and silver. So why paper money continues to lose ground. Physical metals have held tangible value for thousands of years. Stand the test of time. If you want to diversify and protect your family, get some gold or silver and protect your family from the inflation and all the crazy things happening in our world these days. And we talk about those things all the time. And listen, Gold Co holds an A plus rating with the Better Business Bureau and has helped hardworking people place over $3 billion in precious metals. And they'll send you a free gold and silver. It's your doorstep to help you map out your options. Plus for our audience, Nate, qualified accounts could get up to 10% back in free silver, but only while supplies last. So take control of your family's financial security. Head over to blurrygold.com right now and claim your free kit. That's blurrygold.com. One more chronological piece that needs to kind of be established is. The idea of, or the establishing how long Israel would have been in Egypt. Yeah. And most people traditionally would have said 400 or 430 years. Most people don't realize that there is a discrepancy between 400 or 430. Depends on which passage you read. But most people would say generally they've been taught 400 or 430 years for the amount of time that Israel was enslaved in Egypt specifically. I don't believe that. That's what that's called. The long shows aren't so long. Sojourn theory. I take the short sojourn theory, which is based on Galatians. 3:17, where Paul says that the, the time from the covenant given to Abraham until the law at Sinai, which is only like a month after the Exodus was itself 430 years. So that would put the timeline from Genesis 12, the, the establishment of the covenant with Abraham until Sinai as 430 years, the entire time of the, of the, of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob sojourning in a strange land where they're not, that's not their land in Canaan. And then also including all of the time that they were both sojourning in Egypt, which they weren't slaves immediately. They enjoyed a time of prosperity and also the slavery. Yeah. Um, so all of that time together is 430 years. We can count how long from Genesis 12 until Jacob enters the land of Egypt. And that time is exactly 215 years because of the age of Abraham, how long, you know, how old he was when he had Isaac and then how old Isaac was when he had Jacob. And then how old Jacob was when he went into the land. We don't have to do all the math. That's 215 people can check it if they want to, which is exactly half of 430. So the, that 430 would be split into two time periods, a half of it. Sojourning in Canaan as strangers, and then half of it, sojourning in Egypt as strangers, and then if you're walking back 430 years from 1446, you end up at 1876 and there's a painting in Benny Hassan, which is in middle Egypt, kind of halfway between Thebes and Memphis, which would have been like the two ancient capitals of, of Egypt at the time, the Thebes would have been, would have been like the religious capital of Egypt. Capital where the priests were. And then Memphis would have been like the military capital with, they were, you know, running from Memphis is where they were running their campaigns into Levant, like Canaan and Mesopotamia. And so right between there, there's this tomb called the tomb at Benny Hassan. The place is called Benny Hassan. The tomb is of a guy named Canumotep II. He would have been a nomarch. So a nomarch is like a, like a governor or like a, a Lord or something like that. A Duke or whatever, who had a noble, like a noble. Yeah. He had his land. The whole system was feudal at the time. So like he was responsible for his region and he would pay tribute to Pharaoh and they would go to war when he called them to war. But he was responsible for middle Egypt, that kind of that space there. So Canumotep II himself was like Royal, but like removed, not like blood, like Pharaoh line, but still like an important person. He has a big tomb. And in that tomb, there's a bunch of paintings of all his accolades, all the things that he did, right. There's hunting and fishing and all this kind of stuff. It's a beautiful tomb. And on one part of it, there's this caravan of traders, of, of people. People who don't look Egyptian, who are led by a guy named Abisha the Amu. And then behind him are a handful of people. There's an inscription that says what they are. It says they're people from the East, shepherds or herdsmen from the East, which would have been like Levant area. And they came with 37 people and they were trading stibium, which is like the, the, the eye paint that Egyptians used. It was very valuable to them to, to paint their eyes black. Cause they like, yeah, they had that smokey eye look. So I'm like, yeah, I was going to say some seductive training there. Um, the, the Horus eye. Um, anyway, so, uh, Abisha, the Amu, has been this famous thing. He's called the Amu, and the word that's translated Amu is Egyptian. The word is Hekakashet. And so that has kind of Hellenized later or Greekized later to be the same people as the Hyksos. The Hyksos were about 215 years later were the people who were the rulers of northern Egypt in the land of Goshen. These Hyksos were foreign kings. They were shepherds, and they were from the same line, the same family as this Abisha, the Amu guy. Now, Abisha is not Abram or Abraham. His name was Abram in Genesis 12 when he goes in. By the way, I'm referring to the time when Abraham goes into Egypt in Genesis 12. He has this awkward exchange with Pharaoh and his wife, sister wife, Sarah, which by the way itself was a legal exchange. She was a sister, so he could do this thing. But he. He used the same laws that governed how he was allowed to take Hagar as a wife. And he applied the same thing to how he could sell, essentially sell or trade Sarah as a wife in exchange for goods. So there's some things in that story that reach back to Ur 3 of the Sumerian culture that allowed him to do it without it being a sin, which is a whole other story. But so Abisha and Abram are not the same name, but Abraham wouldn't have been. Called Abram at the time. He wouldn't. He didn't speak Hebrew. Hebrew hadn't developed as a language yet. We don't have any script of Hebrew until a couple of hundred years later. If he came out of Ur within a decade before that, because he was really just moving straight through, then he would have spoken Akkadian, not what we consider like Hebrew, even ancient Hebrew. And Akkadian. Akkadian is a language we know. We have. We can look at glossaries of Akkadian. We can look at nameless in Akkadian. And we can see what the word Abisha actually means or the name Abisha means. And it splits into two, which is Abi, which is the same front or the same prefix as Abram, which means my father. And then the back half of Abisha is Sha, obviously. But there's a. What's the word? A rule in Akkadian called a hypochoristic. Like a grammatical rule. Right, yeah. So like Nate, is your full name Nate or are you like a Bargatze where it's really like Nathaniel or something? It's Nathan. It's Nathan. Okay, you're Nathan. I like you for the. Bargatze, Nathaniel. Yeah, it's Nathaniel. I don't know if you have time to travel traveling with. Nathaniel's another country. Nathan is well established here in the realm of reality. So you're Nathan. Nathan, Nathaniel. It's all the same. We have this idea that you would be. We call you Nate and it's not weird or whatever. They had a same kind of concept that you would take a longer name and shorten it. And so they would take the name. They would take the ending of a name and they would shorten it. And it's called a hypochoristic in Akkadian. Yeah. And they would take the. Like, for example, the name Abishar. And they'd shorten it to Abishah. It's not that big. It's obvious. People are like, okay, that's normal. Abishar means. Ancient nicknames. Yeah, ancient nicknames. And so Abishar means my father is king or my father is exalted on high, like a politically exalted, which is what Abram means. Abram means my father is exalted or lifted up. But Abram, my father is exalted, is the realm of exalted is actually like an elevation. Like my father is high above elevation wise. So there's another cognate. Which is like a written like a connecting point in the languages where it's not Abishar but Abishadu. And there's, again, this is all but from Akkadian name list where Abishadu is shortened to Abishah as well. But Shadu is the same cognate original word as Shaddai. They both mean the mountain. They both mean mountain. So like we would say that El Shaddai means God of the mountain. It's translated in Exodus as God Almighty, but it literally means God of the mountain, El Shaddai. And so that comes from the Akkadian El Shaddai or El Shaddai, their high God, El Shaddai. So if you have a guy who walks in and says, my father is exalted, my father is the God of the mountain. He's going to say, my name is Abishadu or my name is Abishah. That's how he would say it when he presents himself to K'numotep II. I'm Abishadu, but just call me Abishah. Abishah. And so you have Abishah, the Amu, which is a foreign Eastern herdsman right there in the tomb of Benny Hassan with a shepherd staff and a coat of many. get much context for the other people in the world at the time or how far those people go back, whether there were people before Adam or whatever, like we don't get much context because that's not what it's about. And so it's definitely written from a perspective, but it's not written from a perspective that's so skewed that it's not telling true history. It's just telling true history from a certain eyewitness perspective, which is kind of how we understand all of history. And that was really like Mike Heiser's contention was, is that like all of this is written within a cultural context, right? And so it's not an exhaustive Encyclopedia Britannica and all things in the world and how they work and what they are, et cetera. It's actually like a story being told from an ancient Hebraic perspective that had cultural context. A lot of it was understood, right? But I want to get back. So I want to get back to what you said. So we've got, we potentially have Abraham as Abishah on a painting on a tomb, 1876 BC. And that's not accepted, right? Like as Abraham. So I was researching that. And then I found later that Chris Ames, Christopher Ames, Eames from the Armstrong Institute of Biblical Studies or Archaeology or something like that. Sorry, Chris. He had already written an idea, like kind of like positing the idea that Abishah seems a lot like Abram, but he didn't go into the linguistics at all. He didn't really go into the depths of Amu versus Amorites and where Abraham came from, but he did posit the idea before I got to it. So I didn't, I wasn't the first to realize that. I just realized, hey, there's more there. So. So how do we, so then you have to give, if Abraham, if Abraham, Abram arrives and has a 215 year sojourn, am I correct in saying that's what you laid out, then how do we get to Joseph? And how do we connect someone coming in from this lineage and this arrival of Abram, Abraham to being like second in command in Egypt? How do we, and do we find anything in, because that's where we have to go if we're going to get to Moses, right? Is they go, Abram shows up all of a sudden second in power and then slavery. We'll get to that. But like, how do we, how do we get to Joseph? And is there evidence for this linear story in, in what you found in, in your book and in your research? Yeah. I mean, if Joseph was as powerful as the Bible says he was, and was so consequential to saving Egypt during a time of famine, surely he shows up in the historical record. And that's one of those things where like secular historians or just people who refute Exodus, the, the reality of Exodus, um, would point to, they say there is no guy named Joseph or even Zarephath, Penelope. Uh, or whatever you want to pronounce his Egypt name. Um, there's no record of a guy named that in the Egyptian record. It's like, okay, but there is just not that exact name. There is another name for Joseph in Genesis that we don't typically call a name. We call it a title, but it's there. And so typically we would point to Joseph, not just being a vizier. So a vizier is typically like the right-hand man to the King, but he's also called the governor of Egypt. Governor. Governor. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That word there is the Hebrew word shalit. Okay. And the word shalit is, it just means governance. Like a common word. It doesn't have much spiritual meaning to it, right? It's just kind of plain, which is why I think most people kind of read past it and don't really realize it's something special. Well, fast forward a little bit. There's this guy named Menatho who I mentioned a minute ago. Um, he has a history of the, of the Egyptian Kings and we have our dynasties mainly primarily because of Menatho because he put them into dynasties. And so we can identify the families of Pharaohs. Um, so we can identify the families of the Pharaohs in their dynasties based on Menatho's historical work from about 300 or so BC. He's a, he's a Hellenized Egyptian writing from Alexandria before they, the, the burning the, of the Alexandrian library. Yup. So we would assume he has access to some things that we don't have access anymore. Well, anyway, he writes about the Hyksos. He writes about this, um, this pestilence that moved into Northern Egypt that, uh, conquered without a sword. And then the first King of these Hyksos people that conquered without a sword. His name was Salatis. And Salatis, Menatho's writing in Greek, Salatis is Greek always adds like a suffixes, right? So like E or S or whatever. Um, if you take the Greek, the Hellenized ending off of that, you end up with Salit, which is the same name again, like linguistic cognate as Hebrew Shalit. And so when Menatho is identifying this King, this, the first Hyksos King who conquered without a sword and then reigned there for a hundred years, his, him and his family, he's got five Kings in the Hyksos line. The Hyksos dynasty, which is called the 15th dynasty by, by, by historians identifying Menatho's line. This Salatis lines up perfectly with Joseph as the Shalit, the governor that the Hebrews call the governor Shalit. Menatho calls him Salatis, which is also, has no word by the way, there's no Greek word for Salatis. There's also no Egyptian cognate for Salatis. It's just a name, or at least from Menatho's perspective, but the timing of Salatis' arrival and arising to the, to the throne to become the King of Northern Egypt is about 1661 BC, which is precisely when Joseph is rising to the top of the, of the, of the, the cream of the crop, I guess you could say in Northern Egypt when Joseph, or when, and then let's seven or I guess it's maybe, maybe 13 years after that, that Joseph, that Jacob comes in with the family to avoid the famine. So that lines up chronologically with Joseph. And is there anything within like this history of him being like an outsider, like as you said, like the, what is it? The, the Hiskos, like they are those peoples that came as, as Abisha. Is that, is that correct if I'm connecting these things? Yeah. So Menatho identifies Salatis as the first Hyksos king, which is the descendant of the Hekkakashet, which is the same guy, the same word used for Abisha, the Amun, same family. Ah. And he is connecting the Hyksos and Abisha as the same family. You fast forward a couple hundred years. This time they come back not to trade, but they come back to settle. And the first king is the one, oh, this is one I forgot. The way that King Salatis conquered Northern Egypt is by controlling all of the grain during a time of famine. Yeah. That sounds spot on. Okay. You have a different name for him, but like, how do you, how close do you need to get to the same story? This is, this is incredible. It's like a 50,000 foot view. I never really thought about like this. Are you saying like the Bible is obviously the story of God's people kind of going on a, on a journey and they kind of dip into someone, some, another culture, they come out of it. And so we don't really get a lot on the other culture. We just kind of get like, they were here, they were hanging with these people and then they went this way. Yeah. And in every other culture, there's different names for the same people. Right? Yeah. Is that kind of like the overview of people that are just trying to figure out like, well, what are we talking about? Yeah. That's what he was saying. I don't want to answer for him, but he was saying that like at this point there, Hebrew isn't, isn't a written language or, and so we're talking about dissecting names based in, in the, in the, in the language that would have been used. Right. And also in the, in, in some of the, what, Arcadian and Egyptian. Yeah. I mean, another connection here is there's a lot of people that will say there's no evidence of a large Israelite population in Northern Egypt. Right. In Northern Egypt during this time. And it's like, well, when number one, there is, there's a guy named Manfred Biatak, who was a, he's still alive. I say was my bad, sir. He's still ticking. I emailed with him. He didn't, he didn't love my conclusions. He said he got kicked out. He was the, the lead archeologist in Goshen in the, in the city called Avaris, which is later renamed Ramses. But in the city of Avaris where there's a, where there's a large Semitic population that he's uncovering as there's, there's a tomb with a goat. There's, there's a tomb with a guy in a multicolored coat and a little pyramid tomb surrounded by 11 other little tombs in the back, the backyard, I guess you could say of the palace there in Avaris. He uncovered not just that, but that there is a mixed multitude. There wasn't just Israelite or like Proto Hebrew kind of people there. There was also other people from Canaan, other Semitic people from Canaan, which it's like, we get that actually, we get the same story coming out of Exodus. We all know that there are a mixed multitude coming out. It's not just Israelites coming out. That's all of Goshen. We call it Goshen from scriptures. They called it the Northern Delta or the Northern kingdom. He calls it Avaris. I mean, they called it Avaris. He found the name. When I emailed him about it, he said, yeah, actually I got kicked out of Egypt because my discoveries were being used by, by religious historians to, to show proof that Israel was there. And they, they, they canceled my, my contract to like allow, to disallow me from digging. The funding, they just pulled the funding. They just pulled his funding, pulled his allowance to do it. And he said, Hey, he hasn't been able to go back. And this has been like 20 years since then. So yeah, we've heard that a lot on, that seems to happen a lot to people in the blurry verse, you know, whether they're YouTube gets scrubbed or they, you know, you kind of wonder like if, if the early on in their career, they don't really have, they're not established. So they get booted. And I, my, another question I've always had on their show, Scott, I don't know if you can answer this, but it seems like Egypt itself. It seems like, it seems like, it seems like Egypt itself. It's very like, it's probably one of the most popular, like non biblical places, you know, like in there's the, the Holy lands. And then there's just like, Egypt's always coming up in the story. Is there some reason, like even before, like there's a story within a story of Egypt, because it seems like we can, you know, whenever you're growing up in the church, you're always, you're always hearing about this place more than anything as a kid. And then you're like, it seems to continue to come up in the conversation. I just wonder if there's like a history there, but maybe you've uncovered that kind of goes back even further that there's something going on. Yeah. I mean, if you go back to Genesis 10 and the table of nations, you get Mizraim, which is the ancient name for Egypt. It was later changed to Egypt by Alexander the Great, right? Egypt, Egyptica or Egyptica. And so like way back then, it wasn't called Egypt. It was called Mizraim and it was a descendant of Ham. And so you have this like kind of this older idea that the descendants of Ham went kind of south and the descendants of Shem kind of went east and the descendants of Japheth kind of went northwest. It wasn't a perfect split. They didn't like say, hey, you go that way, I'll go this way. But it was roughly that direction, right? And so like from that point forward, the people of northeast, I guess you could say northeast in the Horn of Africa, Africa become very integrated into the story of Israel, into the story of the covenant people, I should say. And so like you get one of the first interruptions, one of the first kind of disruptions, I should say, of what's going on with the covenant people from a guy named Nimrod, who is over-interrupted. He's in Mesopotamia building cities, but he's a Cushite. So which is like just south of what we would call Egypt, Ethiopia kind of area. But he's like, he's not where he should be, I guess you could say, not that he should have been somewhere, but like he's identified as a son of Cush, but he's over in Mesopotamia building cities over in Mesopotamia that one of them becomes Babel. We have the rebellion and dispersion at Babel. And so Egypt and the story of those people are continually interacting with and disrupting the covenant people, the story of the covenant people over and over throughout the Bible. And that starts really in Genesis 10 before even Babel is erected. Wow. So then how do we, so yeah, so let's continue the story. So we start, we find Abishah, then we can, we find a character there that is the Joseph character. We see this rise of these folks, the Hiskos outsiders up into almost a dynasty of Kings. But then in order to follow this Exodus story, they have to become slaves. So what, what happens here and how do we find that in the Bible and how do we find that in, in your story of history? Because how does that, how does that happen? And where are we, what are we seeing here? What do we see in the Bible? What do we see in, in the Egyptian, you know, history that lines up with this? So according to Manetho, the Hyksos had five Kings and they reigned for about a hundred years. And then we can corroborate that with just archeological history. That's not contested that the Hyksos were the 15th dynasty reigning in Northern Egypt for about a hundred years. The second King in the Manetho King list is named Benon as the second King after Salatis. Benon doesn't really sound like a Bible character until you look at the name that Benjamin was given by Rachel when he was born. Before his name was changed to Benjamin, most people don't kind of remember that his name was Benoni when he was born. And then, which is to say, son of sorrow. And then Benjamin changed to, I think, son of my right hand or something like that to Benjamin. I mean, Isaac, sorry. Jacob changed it to- He didn't want an emo name. He was like, I need something a little stronger. That's sad. Like, I like this kid. He's probably going to be the last one. I should name him something better. All right, dude. He sounds like an emo band. We gotta, we gotta switch this up. So he's got, the second King has the same name as the, as the favored, as the favored brother of Joseph really is what that is. And then you have three more Kings that we don't, don't show up in Egyptian history until the last one and don't show up in the biblical history at all. But the last one's name is Apepi. That's the last name of that, that last King of the Hyksos. Now Apepi, by this point, about a hundred years after Joseph has really established himself as the governor, the shalit of the north, and the Egyptians were still living in the south. They still had their own dynasty in the south. Well, a few generations later, Apepi, well, I guess let me back up just a second. The, the southern Egypt was having to pay tributes to, to the Hyksos in the north in order to be able to do trade in, in Asia. Cause they, cause the Hyksos in the north, like, like controlled the trade route, you know, through the land bridge there between Africa and Asia. It's like the Strait of Hormuz. Exactly. That same kind of thing. So they're paying a tribute. The Southerners are playing a tribute to the Northerners and the Northern King gets a little bit of, and maybe, you know, like a late night party or something like that. And he decides it'd be really funny to send a letter to the King in the south. His name was Second Henry Teo. And he sent a letter saying, Hey, you need to shut your hippopotamuses up because they're keeping me up at night. This is a letter he sent and they're 500 miles away. And Apepe is like, shut up your hippopotamuses or kill them. And Second Henry Teo has had enough of it. He considers that a, like a, an insult that needs to be responded to. And so he marches north with his army to, to fight King Apepe. You're like, don't sully my hippopotamuses. Yes. Yeah. It was like an insult. It was like picking a fight kind of thing. And so Second Henry Teo bites and he gets bitten. He gets slaughtered in that, that first battle. So the, the, the Kings and the King of Navaras, they're well-known to be cherished. They're well-known to be chariot, like to be chariot drivers. And King Apepe attacked them on land and they just got annihilated. His son, Kamos, did the same thing, got annihilated. But then Kamos' brother, the other son of Second Henry Teo, his name is Amos. Amos the first he becomes. Amos was like, you know what? My father and my brother tried to march on the north. I'm going to do it differently. He builds a fleet of boats. There's little like, like reed boats in, in Egypt, floats them up the Nile. Cause you guys know the Nile is the, it flows north. So he floats it with the current moving fast north, his entire army, not on land where the chariots could have any kind of power float to the north. And then it spreads them out in the Delta because Avaris was in the middle of the Delta, which is like a bunch of different like tributaries splitting off of the Nile into Mediterranean. And so he surrounds the city before they can even react. And essentially he takes the city without much of a fight at all. He takes the city and, uh, expels, the story is that he expels the Hyksos leaders, the Hyksos, like royal family, royal and also all of their kind of like military, they run, they run to the east. And then he enslaves the population. Like the Egyptian history is that the Hyksos, the elite were, were expelled, but the people, the Semitic population were enslaved. We have literal records on like scratched onto walls. And one of them specifically is Amos son of Abana, Amos son of Abana, not the Pharaoh. He's like the Admiral of Amos' fleet of ships that move north. And he has given gold of valor, which is, I don't know if you've heard of it, but Amos is the son of Abana, not the pharaoh. And he's given gold of valor, which is a reward for the, for the victory at Avaris. But there's something really specific. He's given slaves of the Hyksos. And so we have a, we have a very unique record of the enslavement of the Hyksos. The only enslavement that I'm aware of, and maybe some Egyptologists will correct me. The only enslavement that I'm aware of, if anybody that was already in the land. So these aren't slaves that are brought in. These are slaves that were there and enslaved in place. You could say like they stayed there. And, um, and the slaves were, some of them were enslaved in the local government, but some of them were enslaved in the location as like hard labor. And then some of them, a very, a small portion of them were enslaved as people that were living like, like house servants, I guess you could say. And those were some of the slaves that were given to Amos, son of Abana. So we have a record of the enslavement there as well. Wow. Yeah. It's, it's, it's, it's great to talk about these things. Cause I, we just had Jeremiah Johnson on and he was talking about basically the same thing of like, you know, faith, we have faith in these things, but there isn't the absence of evidence. There's a lot of evidence there. Yeah. That supports all these things. And now it takes faith to go, okay, there is a Christ figure in history. Now, do you believe he's the son of God? I think that's where the faith comes in, but there is no debate if Jesus was, you know, existed and was there at the time. And there's all these clues and you have to find them. And I think that modern people have this interesting thing, kind of looking back going, okay, these are, they're all lining up. Um, is there more evidence coming out every day? Is there more reason to suggest that, okay, the timeline that we were shown in scripture is is, is actually, we're, we're seeing more clues and it's lining up perfectly. I believe so. I mean, I, I mean, yeah, like I'm not much of a prophecy guy, right? I don't really deal in future stuff. I'm more of a past stuff. Like the future for me is, is so blurry. I can't really see it. Um, I'm not a guy that like you guys have guests on here that really do good prophecy work. Sure. And I listen, I'm like, oh, that's amazing. And I have like, I'm just, and all of the prophecy guys, it just doesn't click for me. Well, we get some weird past stuff too. Like Ryan said, Job, Ryan Peterson said, Job built the, the great pyramids. And I'm like, yeah, you know what I mean? Like, I disagree. I don't know about that. It's an interesting line of thinking though. I mean, you can follow logic there. Yeah. No, we can talk about that some other time, maybe, but, um, I've got some, some contravening evidence for that. Well, so let's go back to this thing. So we've got these stories of evidence, the Southern kingdom conquering the Northern kingdom, which was, was ruled by the, by the Hiskos, which we have drawn. We've, we've created this case throughout the episode now about the arrival of Abraham and the rise of Joseph and this being the, what the Egyptians called the Hiskos peoples, which ruled. And we knew that, and now they're enslaved and we've got Egyptian record for this. So then what happens next? How do, how do we get from this enslavement to the story of Moses? Cause this is, this is the crux, right? This becomes the Exodus. Moses is, is found in a basket and you have the, they have the story of the Exodus, but where do we, where do we go from the enslavement of the Hiskos peoples? As we found out, we found the story of the Exodus. We find it in this as, and the evidence of that being the biblical Semitic peoples or the, or the ancient Semitic peoples. And then we have Moses arrive on the scene and where do we place that? And how does that story begin? Yeah. So you would think the same, the same problem with Joseph, like if Joseph was such a big deal, wouldn't we have him in the record? And it turns out, I believe that we do, right? I'm just, he's just not called Joseph or Yosef or whatever. I believe the same thing with Moses. If Moses was such a big, a big deal in Egypt, even before he fled, he was adopted as son of the daughter of Pharaoh. That's a big deal. That's a big deal. He was raised in the house of Pharaoh. That's a big deal. Wouldn't he show up in the archeological record? And the answer is yeah, of course he would. Now, um, so, so the timing lines up with a guy named, I'll just cut to the chase. They don't, lines up with a guy named Amin Mos. Now I'll say this, I'm minority. This is a minority view only because it's never really been posed before. So this is brand new with my book is what kind of what came out, right? This is hot. This is fresh and hot. Hot, fresh. Yeah, exactly. Most kind of like guys in this space would identify Senenmut as Moses, who Senenmut is like a, is an advisor to the Pharaoh and to the royal family. He tutors the daughter of the Pharaoh Neferuri. He, and he disappears and then his like, he's disgraced kind of. And so you can kind of get some hints of Senenmut in the story of Moses sort of overlapping, but Senenmut was never adopted by the family. Senenmut, we know Senenmut's father and mother and siblings. And so, which is, that's not what lines up with Jochebed, you know, in the story of Miriam and Aaron. And so, so it doesn't line up perfectly. You kind of have to do a little bit of like, kind of forcing it to fit. So I didn't love the idea of Senenmut. I studied it out. I was just like, it doesn't fit. And so I started going back and looking, who else is there? And there's this one character, this one guy, this one young man who once I started reading, but nobody talks about him because he, because he disappeared from the record, the historical record when he was young, fairly young, as a young adult, I guess you could say in his twenties. Or at least he disappears from the record in his twenties. But he has, his name is Amin Mos. His name means born of Amin, right? So born of Amin. His last name is, or his last name, his second part of his name is Mos, which is just being like the simple meaning of born of. So you have like Tutmos, which is born of Tut and Amos and Ramos. These are guys that are born of their particular God. Amin Mos' mother is named Queen, Queen Amos I, or really Queen Amos. She's the wife of Tutmos I. And these are a bunch of names you guys probably are kind of getting jumbled with a lot of other Moses, Mosey names. But she's first and foremost, the daughter of Pharaoh. She carries the title daughter of Pharaoh, which is the specific phrasing of the woman who adopts Moses in Exodus 1 or Exodus 2. The proximity of Moses' family would have been, like I said a moment ago, that some of the slaves were taken and became household slaves. We know from the biblical record that those people that were taken as household slaves were Levites. So the Levites became like slaves of priests. And so they were taken as household slaves. And so they were taken as slaves of priests and slaves of royal family and house butlers and footmen and all that kind of stuff, which explains why Jochebed and Miriam would have been close enough to put a baby in a basket near the Pharaoh's daughter and how Miriam would have been able to see it happen and then walk over boldly and speak to the daughter of the Pharaoh. She would have been in the household of the Pharaoh. Like she knew. Yeah, because you weren't getting close to the household of Pharaoh if you were making bricks. Exactly. And plus we know that the brick making from historic history, the brick making was up in Goshen and this would have happened in Memphis, which is maybe a hundred miles south, right? So this is not in the same neighborhood. Exactly. So Queen Amos has two sons. Well, I should say Thutmose I has two sons. There's Wajmos and Amenmos. Now Wajmos, he dies and we have his tomb record. We have his funerary. He became a funerary cult for about a hundred years. Thutmose dies and he dies young, like 10 years older or younger. Amenmos doesn't die young. In fact, Amenmos is the opposite of that. Amenmos becomes the great overseer of soldiers. He becomes the general of the Egyptian army, which kind of sounds odd because in Exodus, we don't see Moses as the general of the army, but we do see that in Acts chapter seven, when Stephen is preaching, right? Stephen's preaching this great sermon before he's martyred. And one of the things he says is that Moses was mighty in words and in deeds. He was mighty in words and in deeds. And so this particular phrasing, mighty in words and in deeds, especially mighty in deeds points to a military mighty, like the word mighty often is a military mighty in the old Testament, right? We know this from even like the mighty men of old kind of thing. They're military mighty men. And so Moses being identified as a military mighty man gives us a little hint that Moses was not just a kid sitting in the Pharaoh's palace and kind of sipping wine and eating grapes until he killed a Hebrew taskmaster, right? Or killed an Egyptian taskmaster of the Hebrews. But the story really gets much more interesting when we read Josephus, Jewish historian writing in the first and second century. Josephus says over and over that he's, when he writes about Egyptian history, he's referring to Manetho, which we don't have all of Manetho's history. He's also referring to Ardapanus, which is another Alexandrian historian around the same time. Josephus says that Moses was the great overseer of soldiers, that Moses was the general of the armies of Egypt, that Ammon, or that this Moses went down into Cush and won a great victory in Cush for Thutmose I. And we have a record of Thutmose I winning a great victory in Cush. This is in, this is Egyptian history that we have. And then out of Cush, Ammon Moses is, he's the great, the, the victor of the battle and the, you know, overcoming the Cushites. And he comes back as a victor. We have in Numbers chapter 12, that Moses is accused by Miriam and Aaron as lovingly, lovingly, lovingly, lovingly, loving his Cushite wife. Now the most common spoil of war was to take the daughter of the king that you just conquered and take her as your wife, sort of essentially like your spoil of war. And so the story would go, and this is also Josephus saying the same thing, Josephus says this, that Moses took the Cushite wife from his conquering in Cush, still had her with him when he was in the desert in Numbers chapter 12. And Miriam and Aaron are upset that he has something left over from, in his life, left over from his title. And he says, well, I don't know, I don't as an Egyptian prince, which makes sense. I mean, like we know about Zipporah, we don't know about this Cushite wife, but there's this hint that Miriam kind of accuses him of keeping the Cushite wife. So this is the same story of Ammonmos. Now Ammonmos never became Pharaoh, just like Moses. After Thutmose I, when he dies, there's Thutmose II and there's Hatshepsut, which is another daughter of Thutmose I there. And then Thutmose II, he's sickly, he dies. And then Thutmose III, comes into power. And all of this is happening while Ammonmos is still alive, when he should be the heir to the throne. Because he's the son of the daughter of Pharaoh. Right. Right. So Hatshepsut has to make up the story. She famously claims divine right to rule as the second, technically, female Pharaoh. And she even like, the statues of her have her with a beard and like with the male, like male headdress, making her look like a father of the country, but she's a girl. So Hatshepsut claims divine right to rule from Ra himself, saying you'll be the Pharaoh. The only reason you would make up this story is if there was somebody else contending for the throne that had a good call to the throne, and you needed to overcome that with some divine story. Right. You're like, well, that's good. But like, right. But God said, I am. Right. Now Hatshepsut, some people have said that Hatshepsut like was the adopter of Moses, that she was the daughter of Pharaoh that adopted Moses. But the problem with Hatshepsut being the adoptive mother to Moses is that Hatshepsut in her tomb chose to tell the tomb scribe before she died. She chose to tell the tomb scribe before she died. She chose to tell the to make sure they know that I hate the Hyksos people. She calls the Hyksos people a pestilence on Egypt and they should be, that they should have been wiped out to begin with. So she actually hated the people that Moses came from and would not have been the type of person to adopt this Hebrew baby because we know from Exodus chapter two that the daughter of Pharaoh knew he was a Hebrew baby. Hatshepsut didn't like the Hebrews. So I don't think Hatshepsut was the adopter of Moses. I think it was Queen Amos. Then Amin Mos, the son, by the way, Queen Amos was called the God's wife of Amin, Amun. So she was the wife of Amun and she had a son named Amin Mos. So she would have claimed that he was the son of her union with Amin, the God Amin. It was her job to- Sounds very Nephilim. Yeah. It was her job. Yeah. It was her job to stimulate the God Amin toward fertility. Oh, interesting. I don't know if you, I don't know how PG this show is, but- I can read between the lines. I can read between the lines there. Yeah. It's her job. And then she has a son named Amin Mos, who is this powerful, great general. And then he disappeared. He doesn't die. He disappears from the record. Oh, and there's just no more. And then there's no more Amin Mos mentioned anywhere. So we're going to- Scott, well, I just had a question, like how, overview again, I know that we talk a lot about history kind of be rewritten. You have these guys in there that they seem to be pretty morally inclined to tell the truth. Is that an ancient thing? Or is there like clever rewriting of history too, that you guys discover of like, oh, they, they won. So they've kind of rewrote it as this, but- Who do you mean are the ones that are morally, morally inclined to tell the truth? You mean like the historians or the pharaohs? Just like cultures of ancient times when they're, when they're trying to retell their truth. I mean, obviously we, we talk conspiracy theories all day that like things were cleverly disguised. Oh, gotcha. Is that a common theme throughout history? Like when you're digging through the past, like to include some of these guys in, you know, would have been, would have been a controversial or it's just been like, no, this is, you know what I'm saying? I know what you're saying. And it wouldn't have been done at all. Yeah. So Egypt is famously, and this is one of those things that I've been, that Zahi Hawass probably would even like conciliatorily agree to, right? He would, he would say, yes, Egypt, yes, they're very propagandistic. Yeah. Yeah. They don't actually, we don't, we find, we find no records of Egyptian losses or defeats, ironically, but- Undefeated. They're undefeated, right? We only find steles of victories. We only find steles of, of interactions with the gods that bless them. We only, we only find records of times of- of plenty not times of famine where the gods would have failed them you know there's no record like the egypt is famously um propagandistic even to the point where later dynasties would deface and rename former monuments or former monolithic things in their own name so like famously scrub them and they put their own like rameses for example there are things that have rameses names on it like bro we know you didn't build that that's it we just you just that's completely different style of building it's a different technology like it may not have even been we can get into we don't have to get into this but it may not have even been egyptians that built it but yes um but you know they they do it constantly like you see lots of pharaohs with their noses knocked off and of course egypt egyptologists will say oh that was erosion like the rest of the thing is fine the nose is knocked off from erosion with an eroding hammer like the like the the mode was was to disgrace a former rival from a from a previous dynasty that had been glorified or magnified but by knocking off their nose to to disgrace them they would do that to their own people right to their own people in the past that they didn't want to be associated with how much more would they have no record of the people who annihilated them or the god really rather who annihilated them in this this event that happened in 1446 so we've got prince aman moz which sounds a little bit close to my mind but it's a little bit close to my mind but it's a little bit close Moses on the back end, which is fascinating. - Again, linguistic, it's right there. - Yeah, and as a candidate, you're a candidate for Moses. And we were, what dynasty are we in here for? - 18th dynasty. - 18th dynasty. So if we're in the 18th dynasty, of all the pharaohs, how many pharaohs rule in this time? - Well, you have from, it's from Amos is the beginning of the 18th dynasty to, I think it's Thutmose IV after Amenhotep II. I think that's where it ends. - So then why Amenhotep II, right? So if we're to carry this story forward and we've identified the patriarchs of the Bible are here, now we've got a very good candidate for Moses because he's raised by the, this is a son raised by the daughter of Pharaoh. It makes sense with the story of his mom and sister being there, and then he disappears. And he's a general according to sort of the definition of mighty, if I recap this correctly. So then we've got to have a pharaoh, right? And this has been the big question, right? Because everything's been, if it's Ramses, and that's what, you know, people have wanted to say there isn't, there's not evidence within that chronology for, you know, for the plagues and a famine. But then you say, and you said early in the show and over visits that Amenhotep II, his mommy has boils. And so aside from that, what's different about this Pharaoh in the 18th dynasty that makes you peg this as the spot historically for the Exodus, along with the other characters we've already talked about? - Yeah. So, I mean, aside from the year, I mean, the year, we know that Amenhotep II from the high chronology is Pharaoh in 1446, but there's other things that corroborate. And this is one of the things I like to do in these historic investigations is finding the corroborating evidence. If it's just one piece, it's like, ah, that's kind of, it's easy to push over a piece. You know, it's harder if you've got a stool with a few legs under it, it's harder to topple that. So I like to kind of build some legs under these things. So Amenhotep being Pharaoh in 1446 is a big one. But the second piece is that we know from Exodus that part of the reason why Moses was in, you know, Midian for so long was it was waiting for those who sought his life to die. And we know that that happened with Thutmose III, which was the longest reigning Pharaoh in all of the 18th dynasty. He reigned for 30 something years. And he died about four or five years before Moses returned. So he dies in about 1450 BC, 1451, 1450 BC, about five years before Moses would return. - So he's waiting for a regime trade. She's like, oh, we gotta get this. - Yeah. - And got to pass away. - Exactly, yeah. So like part of my book is kind of piecing together the motive, right? I do kind of the detective, like not just the evidence, but what's the motive there. And so I find, I believe that there's a motive of keeping Amenmos out of the throne because Amenmos is a Hyksos. He's not an Egyptian, right? - Right. - And they had disdain for the Hyksos, not just because of racial, but they had disdain for the Hyksos 'cause Moses would have been in the lineage of the people who had been, who their great grandfather had cast out. Like Amos the first wasn't just a guy who defeated them and enslaved them. He was called, in the Egyptian record, the great liberator of Egypt. He unified Northern and Southern Egypt in a way that gave the 18th dynasty its source of pride. Like Egypt was this, I mean, you can imagine if we had a character who George Washington had personally defeated Cornwallis, let's say, and then like some descendant of Cornwallis was running for president. We might be like, wait, hold on a second. I mean, like he might be technically an American born here, but like, do we really want a descendant of King George III? - Right. - Cornwallis running for president? Maybe we want to vote for somebody else just for the- - Oh yeah, like Benedict Arnold. - Yeah, exactly. - Like his great grandson is running for, like, let's throw him out. - Just for the sake of national pride, let's not put a Cornwallis or an Arnold in the White House. And so like, he would have been more than just a foreigner. He would have been a symbol of the Hyksos making their way back into the throne. - Right, so the oppressors of Northern Egypt, right? So you would have been like- - From their perspective, again, 'cause history is written from perspective. - So he was liberating, Amos was liberating the Egyptian people from- - From the rule of these outsiders, these non-Egyptian outsiders. - And so you have this cabal within the palace. This is the way my brain works. You have this cabal within the palace. We don't want Amon Mos, he's a Hyksos. We can see it, we can look at him. He looks like a Hyksos. We know the story of his adoption and we know he's not fooling anybody. Grandma didn't actually sleep with the god Amen to have him. This is not, this is all lore. We know the truth about this. We're not actually gods. - That was the claim then. So let's just go back to say, so the claim was by his adoptive mother is that he was the son of, a god. - Yes. - That's why he looked different. - Yes. - So he was, so Moses was a Nephilim. - Yes. - If you will, right? I mean, by definition. And everybody there's like, nah, bro, this is not it. - Even the circumstances around his adoption in Exodus chapter two, you see like oddities with it, right? She sees the baby, he cries. She has compassion on the baby in the basket. And immediately Miriam comes over and says, hey, if you need a nursing mother, if you need a nursing mother to take care of him while he's a baby, 'cause obviously you're not ready to do that. Then I know a woman, her name is Jochebed. It's, we know it's Moses's wife. And so there's an exchange, a deal that's made between the daughter of the Pharaoh, I believe Queen Amos, and Jochebed to take care of him until he's old enough to come back into the household. - So he gets his real mom. - And when he comes back into the household, that's when he's adopted as son of the daughter of Pharaoh, son of the queen. And that is when like the strategy kind of reveals itself of we have another son and Wajmos, the frail child that is not gonna be the king, but we have a good, healthy baby boy who was given to us by divine interaction, maybe a Nephilim style Genesis six on Mount Hermon, Mount Hermon, where you are, you can look around. - Yeah, baby. - So you have this story. And my point is that it wasn't until Thutmose III dies, which is years after Hatshepsut is dead. And all of the people that are in the Pharaoh's house at the time are dead. That's when you have Amenhotep II come in and that's the same key, the trigger for Moses to come back into the land. - And what's different about this, this reign as opposed to like a Ramses or anybody before that really, your mind is just, you talked about a key, right? This fits because of what happened during this reign, according to the history that lines up with what we see in Exodus. - Yeah, so Amenhotep II is well known as the sportman or sportsman Pharaoh. Like we have inscriptions and paintings of Amenhotep II on chariot, on the back of a chariot, which they adopted, they kind of co-opted from the Hyksos. So by the time he gets to Amenhotep II, they've got chariots and he's the chariot king. - He's like the Teddy Roosevelt, right? He's running around, doing the rough riders. - I never thought about it. That's actually a good point. 'Cause he does go on a conquest himself, right? He does, he's like a very much like Teddy Roosevelt. He hunts, there's lore about him being able to shoot an arrow through a certain number of brass plates. - He went on a Sasquatch hunt too, by the way. - He went on a Sasquatch hunt. - He did, Teddy did, yeah. - Oh, Sasquatch, Teddy did? - Yeah, he hunted them, yeah. - That's the rumor. - That's fascinating. Do y'all have an episode on that, that I could- - No, we don't. - You can link to? - Yeah, it's documented in Bigfoot lore. - Oh, I see. - All the Bigfoot people. - So, and much like, if we're going back to this, so much like a Teddy Roosevelt, who of course did the rough riders, he went on these crazy expeditions to like be a cowboy. And he had this whole, he was a sportsman president, even while he was president, but before he has this whole history of being kind of like, you know, a wild dude that went out and did stuff, right? - Yeah, that's Amenhotep II. - Yeah, yeah. - Interesting. - He was a hunter. He was prideful about it. He was the strong king and he had big shoes to fill. - Sounds like Nimrod a little bit. - Yeah, yeah. He had big shoes to fill also, 'cause Thutmose III was the conquering king. He's the one who went and brought back and like conquered all of, all the way to the Euphrates kind of thing, right? So all the way to the Mesopotamia. And so his son Amenhotep II is this sportsman king and filled with pride. All of his inscriptions are about himself, not his conquering really, 'cause he wasn't really much of a conqueror. He was a hunter, a sportsman. And there are all these inscriptions and paintings of his, of him. Like not his accomplishments, but just how cool he was. Which maps pretty well to a prideful Pharaoh that was just stubborn and digging his heels in for 10 plagues straight until the final one kind of breaks the back. - Also sounds like somebody from like, you know, who lives their high school glory days, still wears a Leavens jacket at our age, talks about all the things they did and we would have won state, like, you know, I'd have gone pro. It sounds a little bit like that, which is fascinating. - Yeah. - What about things like the losing the first born of the nation, you know, army, this, you know, a slave labor force exiting. Are those all that we find any of these things things in in the record when it comes to amen to hotep the second or what yeah so i mean like yeah because we know we just talked before like you know a lot of dynasties and civilizations don't record some of the bad things that happen they sort of skip over that but are we able to find any fuzzy history any any of any evidence for these things as this pharaoh who really does fit the timeline as we're drawing it out but like what about some of these um you know forensic evidential things what well okay so there's one of the big kind of smoking guns in my opinion that this is at least okay so even if you didn't concede this is real history at least it was written contemporary to the time right is the nature of the plagues with the nature of the gods of the time because by the time you get to if you're if we have hebrews or jews in babylon writing all this history from a thousand years later they don't have the contextual history of the gods of egypt to be able to refer to right they're a thousand miles removed and a thousand years removed right and so the very fact that the plagues line up so perfectly with the gods of egypt and it specifically says in exodus i will execute my judgment on all the gods of egypt we just saying outright the plagues are about to just specifically target the gods moses you go back in as the rightful heir to the throne not wanting the throne but wanting the people i'm going in as the rightful heir to the cosmic throne dusting off wiping off these other little gods from receiving worship that was due me the entire time yes and so you have this two thrones that are kind of in contention here in the in the period of the exodus we know i mean from from our perspective that the that the gods were set over the nations but then they usurped the thrones and they were they put themselves in between the the high god and and the people and received worship themselves deuteronomy 32 right it's dividing the nations they take and they take worse themselves and they're corrupted yeah and then they're judged at the cross but and there's another one in deuteronomy 4 that points to the same exact thing that the sun moon and stars were receiving worship from these other peoples and um that connects perfectly to deuteronomy 32 but the um so the plagues themselves targeting each one of the major gods of egypt and then the final one well the the ninth plague the darkness targeting ra himself and then the final one targeting pharaoh and the pharaoh's claim to divinity himself right so he targets the firstborn and of course it's not just the firstborn in the the pharaoh's firstborn it's of all of egypt it's all of egypt all of those who don't put the blood on the doorposts right um and a lot of people will say man that's so i mean like you watched prince of egypt and the the angel of death passes over but then goes into the egyptian homes and it's all little children that are dying yeah right and i'm like whoa whoa whoa it didn't say little children it said the firstborn the firstborn of the heads of household like like the firstborn are not all children like i'm not technically the firstborn but like i am how to be your first body os you'd be gone brother yeah that's it head of household so like the targeting was not hey we're going to take all of their children and make them really sad he it's i'm going to go and take all of the heads of the household all of the the leaders of the of the people the group all the people groups all the no marks like knumotep i'm going to take all of them along with the um the the the son of pharaoh amenotep the second was not the first i was asked that because yeah because he survived you you were picking up on that amenotep the second wasn't the firstborn um and so so you have the military strategy you're saying you're saying you're you're picking up on that amenotep the second wasn't the firstborn um and so so you have the military strategy you're saying it's a military strategy and it's not this like cruel targeting children it's specifically targeting the heads of household it's assassination of the leaders of the clans and then of course to have be the right pharaoh in this time period you couldn't be the firstborn because the pharaoh would have died right and so and he needs to survive to see his judgment right and this is part of yep that's wild i mean and there's no evidence to suggest that they knew they were they knew how to like sort of circumvent this by putting blood on their doors they didn't well not in the egyptian right now i've ignored anything i mean like i see yeah i assume that there was some maybe rumors being spread around hey the hebrews are all killing the lamb and putting blood on their door are we should we yeah but that doesn't sound whack we've had some we've had some crazy things go on should we just like start doing what they said don't worry about it it's not real so there's a lot of evidence for these plagues then yes i believe so i believe that but the evidence isn't in the um isn't in the egyptian record from uh this is the thing that happened and this happened this happened it's the the evidence is in my opinion and a lot of people's opinion there's no way that writing this in the egyptian record is a way to write it in the egyptian record there's no way that writing he's the second oldest because Amenhotep the second oldest would have died the second oldest was Thutmose the fourth and we have a dream stele I don't know if you've ever heard of the dream stele I have we haven't talked about this show between the paws of the sphinx it's like a very prominent position it's been there since it was created right it's never been moved and it's the story of Thutmose the fourth claiming divine right to rule through a dream saying that he would be the next pharaoh and the only reason you claim divine right to rule is if you're not the one that everybody expected to rule and there was somebody else that that would have ruled in your place so I just thought so it all lines wow yeah the key really does click it does click yeah and it's a part of what you've talked about in the book then is that you call exodus a divine foreclosure and we've talked to sort of a little bit here about Deuteronomy 32 so you know this is a nauseam for our listeners but a lot of the reason this show exists is because the work of Michael Heiser and the unseen realm and you were talking about this is like a divine foreclosure this is this obviously is a judgment but you say it's the first domino that eventually brought down the bronze age yeah and can you talk about that a little bit and what you think is happening here on a macro scale as well because this is as always this is the conversations with Dr. Joel Metamali Nate is like that there is this thing that happens in the physical and what he calls cosmic geography there's that there's the Jesus is the ministry and life of Jesus is intentional in its location for material reasons but there's a whole cosmic reason yeah for the reason Jesus shows up at the foot of Mount Hermon yeah you know and and and it's not there's no accidents here so what crosses the sea of Galilee and interacts with a legion in the Decapolis yeah 100 these are all like these are these are cosmic warfare as well as well as as part of a very material ministry yeah so what's what's happening here in your mind as far as divine foreclosure so so I'm I did not coin the term divine foreclosure I can't remember exactly it may have been from Dr. Heiser in one of his sessions it may have been from Derek Gilbert maybe I'm not even sure what's up Derek Gilbert shout out the divine foreclosure it sounds like losing your house in heaven or something yeah it sounds like the book C.S. Lewis is working on never finished they were sitting on thrones and God kicked them off the throne that's kind of the idea of divine foreclosure and he was jealous you know we have a jealous God who who requires that he he worshipped and no one else and so this is what's happening in the plagues the divine foreclosure is the beginning really the exodus is the beginning of a crumbling that happens now in secular history they would point to there's a great book I mean I've read it twice it's a fantastic history book called 1177 BC and it's written by a guy named Eric Klein and it's all about the collapse of the late Bronze Age so he points to traditionally people would have pointed to the Sea Peoples and say ah well the Sea Peoples came in the Sea Peoples were like this people that came across the Mediterranean maybe Greek maybe Mycenaean or something like that Phoenicians maybe coming around from from Syria and they come in and they kind of wreak havoc for a couple hundred years and over the course of time the the havoc that they wreak uh undermines the foundations of it's like ancient Vikings right yeah exactly show up out of nowhere they even had headdresses that were very Viking-esque they had some of them even wore helmets with horns it's crazy let's go it's like the Vikings like had history or something we should look like the ancient Vikings yeah so most people say it was just the Sea Peoples but Eric Klein points to a whole plethora of things that were undermining the foundations of what was otherwise a stable civilization in the late Bronze Age or the Middle Bronze Age and then into the Late Bronze Age now the Sea Peoples are very I mean it's biblical history would point to the Sea Peoples as the same people as the Philistines okay so the Philistines and Philistia the Sea Peoples first arrive in um Egypt and they fight with Ramesses actually he fights a battle with them and then it's kind of like it's not a lot it's like he the way it's recorded is like he's not he didn't lose but like also they didn't leave so they wouldn't have recorded it as a loss anyway but they settle in Gath what we understand is like the the strip of land along the Southeastern Mediterranean between Egypt and Canaan Gath we know if people some famous people came from some tall guys with lots of fingers yeah from Gath um but those Sea Peoples settled there the same that's the same area as the Philistines of course Goliath shows up as a or with I should say with the Philistines himself um and so the Sea Peoples wreak havoc but we have this record of the judges in the scriptures that for the most part people haven't really been it done a have had a difficult time placing the judges in archaeological history but Eric Klein names all of these things that are happening and over the 200 years leading up to the collapse of the late 1177 or the rough roughly 1177 and it lines up perfectly with the things that are happening in the book of Judges with the judges like we have the collapse of the of metallurgy and the the tin trade that leads to essentially the opening of the Iron Age later But we know that that happens to Israel because the judges have to start using like jawbones of asses and like ox goads, right? The sticks with the pointy end on it because the Philistines have capitalized the tin market and they can't make bronze weapons anymore. And so they have to go to the Philistines to even to get their farm tools sharpened. So like they have to go down. It says they go down from the mountains to the Philistines and get their farm tools sharpened and they go back up. And so we see Samson with a jawbone of an ass. Smoking. Smoking people. I don't know if you can use a tool. Give me some foxes. I'm going to go get some foxes. I'm going to light their tails on fire. It's a wild story. So we get wild stories. Exactly. In the book of Judges, a tent peg through Jael, a tent peg through the head. We get almost no weapons in the book. We have Ehud with a sword or a dagger, but a left-handed assassin. But like for the most part, it lines up really well with it. I'm not going to go into the details of it, but there's short-term famines and there's earthquakes. There's the collapse of the tin trade. There is the income. I mean, sea peoples that we would identify as Philistines, which is where Israel first starts to fight with the Philistines is in the book of Judges. And so like while the Israel, all the tribes of Israel are kind of in the highlands in Canaan, kind of the hill country of Canaan, along the coast, the sea peoples are essentially controlling trade along the coast. And we see this exact thing happening in the book of Judges over and over, where there's the same kind of unrest we see in Judges is what Eric Klein and other people, of course, but Eric Klein really tells the story really well. In his book. That's wild. That would begin with, with the exodus of Egypt. It began with a Minotep. That began with the collapse of the economy in Egypt. Ah, there's the connection. So they're, they lost their army. So they lose their army. They lose all their slave labor. Leave their slave labor and their chariotry. This is the beginning of the end, what you're saying. They still tried to project power into the Levant, into Canaan. But, and so they, what they, so Egypt had vassal states all throughout Levant, right? So all the way up to, to the border of the Hittite empire up north and then as far west as the Assyrians, over, you know, Babylonians over to the, to Mesopotamia. And so they would project power by having garrisons of soldiers. But we know from history that those garrisons, while they were still there, were like ghost towns with a few soldiers per garrison trying to maintain a grip on Canaan, but not being able to do it. And we know this because like, well, we know this from history that like after Amenhotep II goes and receives, goes and gets slaves, he doesn't go back to Canaan ever again. He goes on no more conquests. He conquers nobody. He does no more military maneuvers. After he goes and gets the slaves, he just leaves some people in garrisons. And that is really the open door for the Sea Peoples. So when Ramesses is fighting the Sea Peoples, he's dealing with a, a diminished presence, even though he tries to project power into Canaan, he's got a heavily diminished presence in Canaan on the coast, not in the hill country at all. And, and it's the Sea Peoples coming in, moving in and finding sparsely populated or sparsely manned garrisons that makes it very easily. Easy for them to settle in the land and bring about the collapse of the late bronze age. It's wild, man. It's like, yeah, I mean, it does, it does line up. I, I love this case. I think, I think it's so interesting, as you said, early in the show, that the more that we dive into the archeology, the more that we find, the more it seems the biblical text and the biblical stories are confirmed and, and supported by the archeological evidence, which has been a large contention in the past was that. Oh, once we make these discoveries, it's going to disprove the Bible wrong, but it seems to be quite the opposite of that. Exactly the opposite. Yeah. What is, I guess my last question for you then is what, what are some of the pushbacks that you see, you've had with your, with your story, with your story, with your research, with your, your theory about this timeline and these folks, you know, what, what is it, what do you hear from people that be like, ah, you know, that's this, this is, I mean, I know you, you know, you know, and think that you're right with this, but like. Yeah. Yeah. What do people say are the holes? Because I would like to address those and just say, here's what, here's why you believe what you believe. Cause people will say things like maybe the, the papyrus, the Brooklyn papyrus save list, things like that. You know, there's also just, you're going up against a massive machine of traditional archeology and Egyptology that don't want to, as we pointed out, your, your friend that was doing the research in Goshen, they don't want any, well, oh, you're. My friend. Beatech, my friend. Beatech. An actual scholar. You know, your, your pal Beatech. Yeah. The ones, oftentimes when you come up with something that runs counter to the narrative, the funding goes away. Right. Yeah. And if there's not funding for your, for your research in this sense, it would be just sort of this narrative about, you know, what, why, why potentially this isn't the right place, but. Like historical fiction or something like that. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's always that way, especially with Christians is, I mean, this is not a new thing, right? If you're, if you're writing something that, that will affirm the Bible and the, and the a lot of academia and folks. Well, that's what I was, yeah. You're having a legit archeologist on soon, I think, right? I don't want to give away your guess. Scott Strickland tomorrow, yeah. Okay, okay. I wasn't sure if I'm allowed to say it or not, but he's legit, right? He's got his doctorate and he actually goes to Israel. He runs digs in, I think Shiloh, he runs- Yeah, Shiloh's a big one, yeah. Tabernacle, yeah. But I haven't, so there's one hole that most people point to and they would say that Ammon Mos died young. They say Ammon Mos died young, so obviously it's not Moses because Moses didn't die young. But in reality, there is no record of Ammon Mos' death. Like we have a record of Wajmos, his brother, his little brother's death. We know that Wajmos died young. We have a record of Pahiri and Pahiri's tomb of, sorry, Pahiri is Wajmos and Ammon Mos' tutor. Pahiri is the tutor of the sons of Pharaoh at the time and he has Wajmos sitting on his lap, like the favorite son, and Ammon Mos is not pictured. He's mentioned, but not pictured, as if like, yes, I also tutored Ammon Mos, but we don't like Ammon Mos, we like Wajmos. He's that which we did not mention or talk about. Yeah, so like Wajmos is like sitting on his lap in a place of honor. Pahiri, by the way, grandson of Ammon's son of Abana, who was the admiral who received the slaves as gold of valor. So like the man who tutored Ammon Mos, who I believe is Moses, was the grandson of the guy who orchestrated the fall, the overthrow of the Hyksos and the enslavement of the people. So it would have been the dynasty of Joseph. Right, overthrow of the Hyksos, the Hebrews in Goshen, that grandson is the tutor of Moses. I mean, I couldn't write it. I couldn't come up with it better if I thought it up. But the main thing is they would point to is Ammon Mos died, but there is no record of his death. We have a record of Wajmos' death. We have a funerary cult. We have his tomb, all that kind of stuff. Ammon Mos doesn't die, he disappears. Now, Egyptologists would say, oh, obviously he died. I mean, yeah, he died at some point. But like in the record, we have no record of his death. We just have no more stories. Well, we do in Jude when Satan and Michael argue over his bones, right? If it's true, yeah. So Ammon Mos' bones are being fought over by Michael, yeah. That's incredible. I guess the last thing I have is like, so if this is true, then what do we do with that as believers? This is something that should strengthen our faith. I think Nate brought up Jeremiah Johnston before. And I love these kinds of conversations, Scott, because again, we don't have to operate solely on just faith. Like, oh, we believe this because the Bible says it, which we should, right? Sure. But when we find evidence that exists out there. Yeah. What should that demand of us as believers or as people taking in the information about the veracity and the validity of a story like the Exodus? Yeah, I mean, there are generations and generations of Christians who've believed without seeing anything. 100%. And so like faith without seeing is commended in scripture even. Yeah. But that doesn't mean that we should kind of close our eyes and just say, I believe. And I'm not going to pay attention to the veracity of scripture, the historical reliability of the story. Right. So for me, for a lot of believers, a lot of people who have read the book or commented on my videos on this topic and stuff like that, they say, man, it's been a great bolster to my faith. It doesn't mean my faith needed it, but man, it gives my faith some like oomph. Like it just makes me feel a greater confidence that the things that I believe by faith have a grounding in reality, have a grounding in actual history that took place. Yeah. That can be pointed to in the face of, or maybe even held on to when people say, when the world says, man, that whole thing's mythology. None of it's true. None of it actually happened. There's no record of the Exodus. Abraham is a myth. Moses never existed. Noah is really just a Atrahasis guy. I forget his name. Noah is just a Hebrew version of the Epic of Gilgamesh. Yes. Adam in the story of the, or the story of the Watchers is really just the Anunnaki. It's like, it's just, all derivatives. This is a lot of the argument, like, oh, these guys just borrowed the other stories, right? The older stories and they just repackaged them. And that's really hard to do. If you can start pointing to find an evidence and start pointing to things like, well, no, actually, no, this isn't a borrowed story. Yeah. Well, I think, yeah, I think you have, the Bible is a unique book. When, you know, throughout your story, I'm thinking like, it's, it's kind of a lot of things. It's like, it's a historical book, it's a historical record, but it's prophecy and it's teaching and it's storytelling and it's also poetry. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like it's all these things in one. And so it's really hard for like, if whatever hat you want to put on and make it say what you want, you're just like, and I think Christians have a hard time reading all of those, all of that at the same time when they're reading the book. Like it could be any of these things happening right now. And we, we, we, we kind of go moral when we're like, and I like the Bible just drops the hammer on you all the time. Like, and then this, this queen tried to seduce this guy. You know what I mean? It's like, we can't talk about that on, in Sunday school, but don't read Song of Solomon until you're 12, that's a little bit spicy. you uncover it and you're like, you know, you're, you say you're not a future guy, but even the ain't, the old prophecies are coming true throughout time. And you're seeing them like stories within stories. And it's, it's gotta make, confirm your faith to go, man, this is incredible. Like Moses is a Christ figure. And we can see that, you know, once Jesus shows up on the scene and same with Joseph, you know, and that, and I think that's cool that it's, it's, it's a deeper truth. It's shadows and echoes. Well, there's, it feels like lately, and it may just be my algorithm. I don't know, but it feels like lately there's more and more and more pseudo history trying to work against the biblical history. Ancient aliens. Ancient aliens. Exactly. Like the, like Alex Sitchin or whatever his name is, like, like kind of beginning sort of with him. I'm sure he kind of came about before him in sci-fi and all that kind of stuff. But like, there's, it seems lately in the last several years that there's more and more stories. Like Yahweh was, was just a storm God and he was stolen from, and he's, Yahweh's not really real. And he was a storm God. And this Kenite, it's called a Kenite hypothesis that he was adopted or co-opted. Just like they would say that all the other stories of the scripture are. Never do they entertain the idea that maybe there is a, maybe of all of these stories, there is a cultural history, a memory, I should say, that's carried forward in all of these different cultures. And that's why we have flood narratives in multiple cultures, which is why we have different, very similar kind of, uh, uh, well, subversion. Yeah. Subversion stuff. Yeah. Yeah. We, we did a whole episode on that. Like it was a war of stories sometimes, you know, so who tells the better story, right? So they equate like the old Testament stories, especially the old stuff, like before the Kings. Cause once you get to the Kings, it's like, ah, there's a lot of history for Kings. Like there's a lot of history for like the, the, the monarchy and Israel in the Highlands. Right. But like you get further back than that and they say, oh, that's just the same type of history, mytho history as the Mesopotamian history. And as the, the Greek lore history, and it's just borrowed and they're all borrowing, they're stealing from one another. And so when you can actually say, oh, no, no, look, look, look, this is like in the dirt. Like this guy is here painted on a wall. This history book that's written as history, not mytho history, it's actual history Kings list. We have him, we have, we know his name. Like when we see that there's a guy with the same name, if you drop the name of the God I'm in, you have the name Moses, right? I'm in Mo's the Hebrew from Hebrew. Moses is actually Moshe, right? There's no S on the end. That's the, that's the Hellenized version. And so like Mo's and Moshe is the same name and it has very similar. Yeah. Meaning even across the, across the language. And it's fascinating too that you just drop the God and you go, I've got a new, I have my God now. He goes to Midian. He discovers, you know, like Yahweh is my God. And in an act of faith, he says, I'm not, I'm in Moshe. I'm not born of I'm in, I am just, I'm just Moshe. Just call me Moshe. Born of I am. Yeah, exactly. And so you, so my, my, my, go ahead. No, I was going to say you locate these guys, all this, this actual history in the dirt. And for believers who have a really difficult time with the seemingly credible historians saying Yahweh was co-opted from a storm God, the Baal storm God. And the story of Abraham was a myth and all of these things were borrowed. And it's very difficult if you're not learned, if you haven't been reading a bunch about it, you haven't seen this stuff. It's very difficult to not feel like your faith is built on something that has a kind of a shifting sand kind of a foundation. And when you find the people in the dirt, you find some stones to stand on, right? You find something firm that you can say, okay, hold on. All of these other stories, these are just kind of faithless people grasping at straws. We have a history to this. We need to, we need to bring you back on and do like a deep dive into some of these specific topics and maybe talk about ancient aliens and things. Cause we run into that every day. And, uh, you'll have to, you, my last question is you have, what would Luke be called in ancient Egypt? So I can call him that on the show. Like I need a, I need a good nickname for Luke here. It's just, yeah, I don't know. I don't know. Like, I don't know. Like you see, you're pretty tall, I guess. And they would probably name you after what you looked like, I guess. Or maybe it was like who your parents were. Yeah. Yeah. It all goes full circle. Cause we started with Bigfoot and the names and Luke would be something like, well, let me tell you about this. This is a fun story to end on. So when I, when I was doing my master's in San Diego, I worked at an Italian restaurant. I attended bar there and the entire kitchen there, which is amazing. This is a great Italian restaurant in North County, San Diego. The head chef was Filipino, which is kind of funny in Italian restaurant and the entire staff in the kitchen, they were all Hispanic. And so I had phone with these guys and they, they had a nickname for me and I, it was in Spain. I never knew what it was. And then when I, when I finally figured out what it was, it meant broom closet. And it's because I was tall. They were like, oh, you're like tall, like the broom closet. And I was like, so you can call me broom closet the whole time. But I know it's going to go somewhere fantastic because of the show. But Scott, this has been really fun, man. We would love to do this again with you, but for our listeners here, Black Sheep Bible Talk, tell them where they could find that. The Substack, of course, the book, kind of tell everybody where they can find what you're working on, find your videos, find your book. And give yourself a, give our listeners a grid to where they can interact with what you're doing. Okay. So on YouTube, it's Black Sheep Bible Talk. It's just the channel. You can just, I guess, YouTube search it and call it Googling, I guess. On Substack, it's Black Sheep Bible Notes. On YouTube, I do one video a week every Friday, and it's always 20 to 30 minutes long. It's that kind of like storytelling history for the most part. See, that's my thing. I love history, bro. I like pictures. And so there's lots of pictures. My face is on there for a few seconds here and there, but it's really just pictures of old stuff, showing you what I'm actually talking about. And then there's also a Substack I write every week, sometimes twice a week, sometimes once a week. And usually I write a little bit more biblical theology there. And so my channel is a little bit more biblical history, biblical mystery, history's mysteries. And then my Substack is biblical theology and connecting the things. So that's where I write about the name of God, what's the history of the pronunciation of the name of God, and what was Abraham's faith like before he got to Canaan? So if we know he came from Ur, we know those people's faith. So we can dig out of the dirt what his environment would have looked like and connecting that to Melchizedek and Jethro and Job. And so I do a little bit more biblical theology in Substack, because I don't have to. It's not stories. We do the same. We do the same. We've got Stranger. We'll have to. I've subscribed. We'll have to talk about a collab, actually, with. Let's go. We'll get on this after the end here. But maybe coming soon on Stranger Theology, of course, is our project with Dr. Joel Ben-Mali. We'll have Scott and Black Sheep as. Yeah. Thank you so much, Scott. Appreciate it. But thanks so much for coming. Thanks for coming up to the studio. And this was so good. I mean, this is always. It's funny. Just personally, this always. This scratches an itch for me, because I'm such a history guy. I love to walk through all of the history that confirms and undergirds the things that we believe. And I think it's so important for us. And this is. This is, again, to some previous episodes we've talked about, to not just believe, but also know why we believe. And then we can also. I like your analogy. We can find stones in the dirt to stand on that say, here's my. Here's another analogy. Here's. Put the flag in the ground here and say, these things happen. Yeah. And here's what we can look at. Yeah. And just to. And to go back to what you were saying a minute ago, there's so many bad theories that just grow legs and run for miles. And they just don't understand some of the. Sort of the other stories within story and the war, and they kind of take one. It's just like Satan to me, where he takes a little bit of truth, sprinkles in some other elements, and then next thing you know, you've got a whole bad theory. But it feels good, right? Yeah. It feels right. And I just appreciate you being. Also, just to say on the side note for letting me. My kid's got an opportunity to go to camp last minute and doing this remote, so thanks for putting up. This wasn't the plan, but I appreciate you being flexible with me being gone, so. Man, camp at the gates of hell? Bro, I mean. That's incredible. Dude, at the mountain. That's hardcore. At the Mount of Defilement. Santa Cruz is a different type of gates of hell, because there's a lot of weird stuff here in the mountains. But, you know, we're pushing back the darkness here in Santa Cruz. No throne of Satan. No throne of Satan at that Mount Hermon, hopefully. No cave of Pan. We're going to that one, and there is some tickets available. Actually, shout out promo to our trip to Israel. There's a couple tickets left. You can go to our wordcruises.com, click the banner. Come with us. Come with us, Israel. Go to the real Caesarea Philippi. That's awesome. That sounds killer. Maybe we'll drag you out there one day. And the non-Frisbee golf Mount Hermon. We're going to go there. Yes. Not playing Frisbee golf or having family camp. I don't think this Mount Hermon knows the weird history. Are you guys going to. Do you guys have access to the gated section at the top? We're going to go up top. I think that's the plan. Can you get into the military compound at the top of Mount Hermon? Well, I don't know about that. We talked to Josh and Tommy about that, but I'm not sure. Well, let's. We need to get your. Yeah, we'll talk about this offline. Maybe you guys can storm it like they did Area 51 a few years ago. Yeah, or just like all the kids are storming Scientology churches right now. We'll just run as fast as we can, as far as we can into the apex of Mount Hermon. Scott, appreciate it, man. Thanks for bringing the highbrow view of this. We didn't make any Ramses jokes from Nacho Libre, but we wanted to. Well, you missed. I just kept waiting for you, bro. I just kept waiting for you to do it. I was like, I can't do it every. Luke's going to castrate me if I do that. I bet. Thank you, guys. I appreciate the opportunity to talk to you about it and kind of share this story with you. Awesome. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.