EP #45- Procrastination, Perfectionsim, and Burnout with Dr. Sirois, Researcher at The University of Sheffield

(gentle music) - We're procrastinating because we're having a hard time with our emotions and our emotions that are coming out in relationship to the task. So it's not the task for say, right? It's what the task feeds back to us about ourselves. - Welcome back to another episode of Every Day in Dorfins. This week is all about procrastination, which I know everybody suffers with because in this day and age, how can we not procrastinate? We're constantly distracted by our devices, people, events, things, responsibilities, and when responsibilities tend to pile up, we often want to not do any of it in procrastinate. I know this is something that I've definitely struggled with and also have found ways to minimize my own procrastination but nobody's perfect and there are definitely days where I cannot get anything done because I just simply do not want to start. So in this episode, I am so happy to have brought on Dr. Fuchsia Ciroin. She's a researcher in the Department of Psychology at the University of Sheffield and a former Tier 2 Canada Research Chair in Health and Wellbeing. Dr. Ciroin's research focuses on the factors that create risk and resilience for health and wellbeing. And for the past 20 years, she's been researching the causes and consequences of the common self-regulation failure that we know as procrastination. In this episode, we discuss what procrastination is, common misconceptions around procrastination, the link between perfectionism and procrastination and ways we can reduce burnout. Dr. Ciroin also gives a tidbit about the importance of self-compassion, which I find super fascinating. I don't want to give too much away, so let's get into the episode, but before we do so, I have a message from my sponsor, Anchor. (gentle music) - Hi, Dr. Ciroin. Thank you so much for coming on to the podcast today. - Really glad to be here. - I'm really excited to talk about procrastination and how we can learn to be better at not procrastinating, because this is something that I've had some issue with throughout college, and I've seen a lot of my peers struggle with procrastinating and putting off tasks, and I think especially in such a fast-paced, intense environment, like a college campus, we are all prone to procrastinating, and there's so many detrimental effects behind putting things off. So I'd love to start off by talking about what is procrastination essentially? I think the way our society has a view around procrastination is actually quite different than what your research suggests. - Yeah, I think that's true. And when we research procrastination, we have to have a really clear, well-defined way of stating what it is, so that we know when we're studying it and the findings that we're having are actually about procrastination, and not what I call some other garden variety form of delay. And so you can see where I'm hinting at there that a lot of times procrastination is confused for just general delay. And while it is a form of delay, as my colleague Tim Pitchell likes to say, all procrastination is delay, but not all delay is procrastination. So all that to say that it's really, it's a very specific type of delay. And we define it then as a type of delay that's voluntary. So you've decided to delay. It's not somebody else told you to stop what you're doing and move on to something else. And it's also something that's unnecessary. So it's not like there was an emergency and you actually had to put aside what you were working on to go address something else that was of greater priority at that moment. Right? So it's the unnecessary and voluntary delay and intended task. So it's something you said, I'm gonna do this, right? I'm gonna clean up the back room. I'm gonna get this report written in the next week. Whatever that task is, you've made an intention to say I'm gonna do that. So that's the other key part. And it's an important task too. It's an a task for which, if you don't do it, there's gonna be consequences. And that's sort of the final piece of procrastination. I think that distinguishes it from a lot of other forms of delay that we might experience in our day-to-day lives. And that's the idea that we have this unnecessary and voluntary delay of an intended and important task despite knowing that we're gonna be worse off for doing so. That it's gonna be negative consequences, either for ourselves or other people if we engage in this delay. - I think there are also certain tasks that we may feel more prone to wanna procrastinate on. For example, I always say, like, I'm gonna clean my room this week. And by the time I actually get around to doing it, a month has passed. Whereas other tasks may be that seem less of like a drag, I feel a bit more enabled to actually do. And I feel like there's no need to actually procrastinate. So is there a difference between the types of tasks that we are more inclined to wanna procrastinate on? - Yes, and this is what the research has consistently shown is that you're right, there's a specific type of task. We don't procrastinate things that we find enjoyable or things that we don't find to be a bother. We're happy to take care of those because when we do tasks, we get that little boost, right? We get that boost of accomplishment, to pride. We feel like we're being productive and that feels good and that can even give you a bit of an endorphin rush, right? When you finish your task. But if it's a task that, like you sort of hinted at, it's something that's a bother or that you find boring or frustrating or maybe it's stressful or challenging or provokes anxiety or not sure what's done. If it has some element of a versiveness to it or unpleasantness to it, those are the very tasks that we tend to put them off. And that's actually hinting at sort of what the underlying mechanisms are procrastination too, that it's, you know, it is about the mood and the emotions that we have around the task rather than some of the common myths that people have that procrastination is just laziness or poor time management? - I think that's a really fascinating perspective that you bring because oftentimes, I think we conflate procrastination with being lazy or unmotivated or just disinterested in something. But it seems here like the actual mechanism behind procrastination and what's really driving this behavior to occur is a type of emotional dysregulation or something that's making it harder for people to manage their own emotions. - Yeah, that's exactly it. So we think of, you can think of procrastination as an avoidant coping style. That's another way to look at it, right? The actual behavior when you procrastinate is you're avoiding something that's unpleasant, those negative emotions. And so you've got this report you have to write and you're all worried about whether it's gonna be good enough or whether you're gonna be able to write it properly or if you've got the right ideas and all these thoughts can swim around your head and it feels quite unpleasant and a bit threatening even perhaps too, you know? And so instead of managing those emotions internally, right? What we often do is we take that task, we put it aside and we go, ah, there, I don't have to think about anymore which means I don't have to think about all those emotions and I don't have to experience them. So you've just effectively regulated your emotions. Now you've not done it in a way that's particularly adaptive because adaptive emotion regulation is something that should have lasting effects and not cause other harms. So certainly you would see procrastination as a sort of short term mood regulation strategy but it's not one that's particularly healthy because, you know, next day when you get the reminders and you've got to write that report, all those feelings come right back up to the surface again. - Exactly and it doesn't seem to be sustainable either because maybe in the short term it is helping you but it kind of promotes this cyclical negative feedback loop where we start to feel guilty or upset with ourselves that we're not able to accomplish that task. And I think, you know, it's not even contributing to those feelings of self-efficacy where you're accomplishing one small task that enables you to feel confident and able to move on with the rest of the things that you have to do for the day or the rest of the items that are on your agenda. - Now that's exactly it and it does feed back into itself and I think, you know, there's been some research on this and research have found that people who are prone to procrastination tend to engage in these negative thoughts about their own procrastination. So you've got a task that brings up these negative motions and negative self-evaluator evaluation sort of thoughts and just basically self-criticism about whether you can do it or not, you put it off and then that same round of negative self-top that same script kicks in again but this time about the fact that you put it off. And it's hard to escape that I think. We think often for class knitters is people are, oh, they're not doing their stuff, they're just having a good time. No, they're not. They're actually, you know, when they're not working on that task they're preoccupied with the fact that they're not working on the task and they're feeling terrible about it. You know, there's, like you said, there's a lot of shame and there's a lot of guilt. And some of this also comes from, you know, some of our deeply embedded social norms about what it means to be productive in society, right? So being productive is good, being non-productive, not good. And so when you're procrastinating, you're doing something that's not good and that can give rise to feelings of guilt, right? So guilt is associated with this idea of bad behavior, right? So I procrastinate as a bad behavior. I feel guilty. But if you have low self-esteem in particular, you know, you can also then take that sense of, you know, I did something bad and then take that a step further and go, therefore I am a bad person, right? I'm not a productive person. I'm a failure. All these other negative thoughts. And then that's when the feelings of shame really kick in. And the problem with that is that when you're feeling guilty ashamed and these are social emotions, you know, about your procrastination. Those are the very times where you're not going to reach out to seek help. Like maybe you're missing information, but you're going to, and you procrastinate because you're not sure about what you're supposed to be doing. You're not going to reach out to anybody because you're going to be a shame of the fact that you procrastinated because of this, because you're going to want to hide that, you know, and again, it's making yourself look like you're violating or transgressing these social norms around being productive. So it really does get into a vicious cycle, sort of a shame spiral at some point. It also seems like here that procrastination is way more deep rooted than I think we commonly, you know, think about or understand with people who exhibit behaviors of constant procrastination. And so it seems like there's something kind of beneath the surface behind that behavior of just putting off a task because it's very, it's just the cyclical loop that it seems like can be very hard to get out of, especially when you're in that shame spiral, as you mentioned. And I love the point that you brought up about looking at how society views productivity. We are taught that being productive is good and that we want to maximize our opportunities or maximize our productivity to really squeeze out everything we can from an experience. And I know that I feel the best when my days are, quote, unquote, productive. I've checked everything off on my to-do list. I have, you know, there's minimal distractions in my environment. I'm very focused. I feel confident in myself. And so those are the days where I just feel really good about myself because I'm doing things. But then I've also tried to sometimes scale back a little bit and see what it feels like to just take a day more for myself and not feel the pressure of having to get everything done. And so sometimes I think that can be challenging because then we feel guilty because we feel like we're procrastinating or putting something off for our own well-being. But I'm curious if there's an intentional distinction between the two, taking time for yourself so that you can actually achieve more when you want to be productive and get your tasks done versus just engaging in that behavior to make the day a bit more doable or easy or relaxed for yourself. Now it's an excellent point. I think, you know, that's that sort of again points to this idea of there's other types of adaptive delays or, you know, sometimes they're called "sigacious delay," which is wise delay. So you're you're you're finding that you're getting burnt out, right? And you notice that and you realize you know what I need to take a day off or I'm not going to be productive. So that is qualitatively different from procrastination for a number of reasons, but just even on the surface, right? If your delay is in service of being productive and getting the task done, then it's not a bad form of delay or a sort of more, you know, maladaptive form of delay such as procrastination, right? Because when we procrastinate, we're not procrastinating with the aim to, oh, if this procrastination will make me then get back to it, we're procrastinating. We might could tell ourselves that, but if we're honest most often, we're procrastinating because we're having a hard time with our emotions and our emotions that are coming out in relationship to the task. So it's not the task per se, right? It's what the task, you know, feeds back to us about ourselves. It's how it reflects back on our own self-evaluations and it sort of triggers those those negative self-evaluations and in, you know, feelings of incompetency or insecurity or perfectionism or what have you. And so, you know, those are it's that relationship to the task then and wanting to avoid that that drives procrastination. Whereas taking a delay, you know, to work on yourself and give yourself more energy to do things because you realize you're burning out, not because of the task, not because you're having a difficult time with whatever that goal is that you're working on, but because you realize that that's actually going to feed back into performing better and enjoying what you're doing more. That's that's again qualitatively different from procrastination. So maybe it's really never actually about the task. It's more about your mentality and your ability to just regulate your emotions at a baseline level. And I think that's really fascinating to me because there's so many strategies and things that we can do to improve our own emotional regulation. For example, mindfulness, just practicing mindfulness and meditating when you were talking about that shame spiral and feeling like we can't actually complete a task and then feeling ashamed about it and just that that cyclical feeling of guilt and shame, that's also stems out of judgment. And the whole practice of mindfulness is to see the thoughts that you know, pass through your head and not judge them, like not judge the emotions that are passing by. So it seems like there's a lot of strategies that we can do in our day to day life that tackle, you know, the first step of just making us feel more emotionally stable and more confident in our abilities to get things done. And then that will kind of stem into our ability to procrastinate less. And that seems kind of to be this byproduct of doing the hard work first where we meditate, where we make healthier decisions so that we can achieve better outcomes in the future. No, that's exactly. And you know, and there's been starting to be some, you know, research now looking at mindfulness in relationship to procrastination. So, you know, I did a study a number of years ago just looking at people who are chronic procrastinators and those, you know, their levels of mindfulness. As you can imagine, there was a negative relationship there. You know, we asked them about their practices. Do they engage in meditation or yoga or Tai Chi. And again, there was a, you know, negative relationship there. The more you're tendency to procrastinate, the less likely you were to sort of hit on board these types of mindfulness practices. But more recently, you know, there's been research looking at mindfulness and other techniques to see that has an impact actually on the behavior of procrastination. And the good news is that it does, you know, simple, something as simple as a two-week course in emotion regulation training that involves meditation and tolerance of negative emotions and these sorts of things was found in one study to predict significantly lower levels of procrastination behavior relative to a weightless control group. So, you know, and that was a randomized control trial. So, you know, pretty much a gold standard of research there. So, yeah, it definitely does make a difference. If you can find, you know, right, you can sit from the baseline, do that hard work to start. Being aware of the emotions, I think that's the first thing. We're not always aware of those emotions. We cover them up with, oh, I'll do this because, you know, future me will be much better shaped to write because I'm just having a hard time writing today. Or, you know, we make all kinds of excuses that way and just say, oh, I just need a break. But we never get that break of 10-minute break or 15-minute break turns into a three-hour, you know, rabbit hole chase down social media channels, right? Absolutely. I mean, especially because technology is just so addicting and our phones are designed to keep us hooked. It's so hard to get out of that. But I think, you know, apart from just being more mindful and aware of the emotion, perhaps the second step is being able to verbalize that, like translate the feeling and the thought into speech into something that's verbalized and being able to actually characterize the emotions that we're feeling and understand the interrelatedness between them. Yeah, it's, I mean, it's definitely becoming more aware of those emotional states is really key. But I think the other part of that is, you know, there's this linkage too between the emotional states and the self-talk, the negative scripts we have that feed those emotional states. So, you know, people who are prone to procrastination are also prone to room-initiative type of thinking. And this is where that whole shame spiral can kick in because you just go back over to what's wrong with me, why can't I get going? And, you know, rather than focusing on, you know, problem solving instead of go, right, what do I need to do? But, you know, problem solving and self-regulating in general is impeded when we are spending all our time and energy and resources on trying to regulate emotions, especially negative emotions. So, for struggling with trying to regulate those negative emotions, you know, we can't think beyond that to the next step. And so, you're right, we need to get people, you know, for people to reduce the procrastination, they need to have on board a number of different strategies, not for, not just for being aware of those emotions and verbalizing, but also how to respond to yourself when you do struggle because I don't, I don't, the goal isn't to just not have negative feelings when you're struggling with the task, right? Because you might start off with the task and go, this is great, I'll have a reading this report halfway through it, you're going, oh my gosh, I have no idea what I'm doing. Right. That's the point where you're feeling the struggle and those difficult emotions. And that's the point where you're more likely to, you know, procrastinate or even altogether abandon that task. And it's giving people tools to be able to manage those lapses or you make a mistake while you're working on something, right? And so, it's how we respond to these mistakes and not lapses and that that's a natural pathway towards reaching goals. It's not a perfect, you know, upward trajectory, right? It's there's a lot of, you know, peaks and chose along the road there. And we have to be able to manage our emotions when we bump into unexpected circumstances or difficulties or realizing that we don't actually know, you know, what we're supposed to be doing with a particular task. That's, it's managing, you know, our responses to those lapses and those difficulties that's really key as well. Yeah, I mean, that's really the only thing we can control is how we respond to a situation or a setback or a failure. And what I'm hearing also was using those setbacks or inflection points where you're feeling challenged more as an opportunity to view it as something to propel you forward. But that's definitely easier said than done because then it goes back to this whole point about the challenge of regulating our own emotions. And that can also seem like a very daunting task. Like, oh God, I have to, I have to make sure that I'm approaching this with the most positive mindset. Like that's not super easy to do all the time. So how can we try to build that mentality and rewrite that self-talk and the narratives that we have in our heads so that we feel a bit empowered in our day to day to have more tools in our toolkit to actually be able to reverse that negative self-talk when we experience those setbacks or failures or challenges in the road. Yeah, no, I think that's exactly right. We need to have that toolkit and you know, so how do you move forward on things when you do experience those setbacks? That is definitely a key. It's not just starting, right? It's not just starting, but it's a completion of the task where we can run into those moments where we have an urge to procrastinate. And I think you know, you raise an interesting point about just being positive and just keep going and you know, that's that you hear this term nail this toxic positivity, right? And that's certainly not an approach you want to have. So it's not about you'll just keep going. It's all going to be great, you know, when you have a lapse. It's really about it's going back to this idea of being aware of things and accepting things. And so one sort of strategy or approach, I think that research is starting to show is really important for managing emotions and can be really valuable for managing procrastination to a self compassion. And that's that idea of, you know, there's a mindfulness in there of being aware and bouncing ones emotions, but it's more than that too. So there's a synergy between that and also responding to yourself in a kind manner. You know, when you, you know, you have these lapses or you realize you're procrastinating or you're struggling with something rather than being harshly self critical. I think that's, you know, there's a work ethic in there that we think that when we make a mistake, we've just got to just keep plowing on just keep going through it, you know, and just what's wrong with you. Okay. And we think that that kind of those feelings of guilt and those sort of that that negative script is beneficial. We think it'll make us more productive. We think it'll help us get over that that. And actually if you're prone to procrastination and have difficulty regulating your moods, it actually can backfire because it feeds back into those negative feelings and makes you run further away from the task rather than run towards and actually get it done. So self compassion, Mac can manage that by changing that script around to one that's much more kind and gentler when you have these lapses. And then the last component is when I think that's really, really critical within self compassion and also for dealing with procrastination is this this idea of common humanity. You know, and that's accepting that everyone makes mistakes right and because when we make a mistake or we're struggling with something we tend to feel isolated in that and that difficulty and we think we're the only one who's ever screwed this up or the only one who's ever had a questions about how to do something before. And we feel embarrassed we feel that shame again we don't reach out to others right and it cuts us off in the very sources of help that might be there to help us move forward so I really do think that reaching out to others sometimes is it would be a big benefit for procrastinators and one of my PhD students has done some research on that and actually shown that that's the case. But all this is say that the common humanity bit is really recognizing you're not the first person to procrastinate nor will you be the last welcome to the human race you made a mistake right you know right so it's not a big deal and people have difficulty with that because I think it's like giving a free pass and a pat on the back oh it doesn't know where it actually doesn't work like that self compassion is it's been shown in numerous different studies experimental studies where you know you have people think about some aspect themselves they don't like or. We actually actually put them into an experimental situation with a task where they have you know failure feedback and those people who you know view them given instructions to approach that in a self compassionate manner or who just have a natural tendency to be self compassionate they actually show more motivation more goal persistence and are actually more successful with their goals. Then people that take the self critical approach so it's it's it's a kind of paradoxical thing you wouldn't think that being nice to yourself when you have a failure and saying hey you know other people procrastinate you know it's it's it's not that big I shouldn't be feeling that bad about myself for doing it on the surface it seems like it would. Would make you just kind of just go back and just you know kind of coast like right like complacency but I think there's also a very distinct difference between self compassion and complacency and those you shouldn't be you know conflated because. As you've just mentioned self compassion actually will help you achieve the goals that you set out to do whereas if you're complacent it will foster those more negative emotions eventually and feedback into that negative feedback loop and I also think with everything we've discussed around self compassion and. Common humanity and also this reminds me of like loving kindness meditation where you you're you know bringing that to the forefront of your mind empathy is kind of you know the central glue to all of this I think like understanding that. We all experience more or less the same emotions and just being able to put yourself in someone else's shoes not only shows self compassion for your own being but compassion for the other person as well. And I also think you know this is a great transition into qualities of like perfectionism and how that relates to procrastination as well. Yes yeah the perfectionism and procrastination and these certain types of perfectionism are a lot more connected to to procrastination then maybe what some people realize when we talk about perfectionism it is really important to make a distinction there's there's a couple different flavors or types if you like. And you know one is about the sort of setting your own high goals and standards and striving towards them and you know trying to be productive and. You see this a lot in athletics in an academics as well right a lot of people in academia right drawn to it because it's an arena where you you've got standards to set you're always trying to reach for better grades and that type of thing. And it's that type of perfectionism is not as problematic as the other type of perfectionism where the standards being set are often not one zone so you're trying to reach standards that you think other people have for you or the society has for you or parents or friends or partners. And these standards are often unrealistic and there are also ones where there tends to be a very harshly self critical response to to any type of failure or not meeting those standards so there's sort of a combination of unrealistically high standards with a really harsh reaction to any lapses or any difficulties in meeting those standards and this sort of self critical. Perfectionism is we've shown in some research we had a study where we looked at the link between people prone to procrastination and these different people with high scores and these different types of perfectionism and what we found was that. And I think it was like over 44 studies, including about 10,000 people that if you were prone to procrastination, you also tended to score higher on this that measure of sort of that maladaptive or self critical perfectionism and one of the ways that we sort of tried to explain it, no, too, is it goes back to self regulation again right. And then we're going to see the whole process by which we kind of set goals and monitor our progress towards those goals and then take the steps towards reaching those goals in that process you always start off was going here's where I am and here's where I want to be. Right and as you can imagine perfectionist probably what they want to be is often very much higher. And that's way too high and that's maybe that it makes it seem even more daunting to get there so the lows of not get like the lows hit even harder because your expectations are so high. Yeah and then and exactly and when you've got those those you know those expectations that so high and this you know carries over into procrastination as well too is one of the things that we argued is that. You know when you've got this gap if you've got a gap you know whether it's big or small it means I'm going to do something right and that's the self regulation process starts off that's when you say I got to set a goal I got a plan I got to go out into action I'm going to do something so I can get where I want to be right. And the first thing you do though when you realize is a gap to go do I have what it takes to get there. So you look at your social resources do I have people that it can help me well if you're ashamed of what you're doing and you procrastinator probably not going to recognize or want to go to those resources right and if you're perfectionist because you're really concerned about what other people think about you because you're worried about appearing perfect right and perfect people don't ask for help. Right back that cuts off the social resources so right class that one off list no social resources do I have what it takes inside. Hmm do I have a strong sense of self efficacy do I feel competent that I can actually reach this goal well if your goals like way up there probably not and if you're procrastinator and you've got a long history of not actually falling through on things probably not as well exit one off the list alright so there's your your resources you just assess the fact that you don't have what it takes to reach that goal what do you do you tap out. When that process happens over and over again it's just debilitating and then you feel like you can't get anything done and then I think that also feeds back into a lower self esteem when you feel like you don't have those resources. One question that I have for you is around goal setting what are some steps that we can take to create goals for ourselves that are manageable and achievable even if you can just fight if you are a procrastinator or not like what are some good strategies. So I think one of the key things and this is especially true for you know for procrastinators and likely for perfectionist as well too is you know to set smaller goals initially right so you might have a grand plan you know something you want to do over the next five years over the next year and it might be just a huge thing that you have to do. If you look at it over once, it's going to be overwhelming. And when we feel overwhelmed about something, we feel-- it becomes aversive when it becomes aversive, and we've got poor motion regulation strategies, we're going to avoid it, and we're going to procrastinate. So a really easy strategy then is to take anything that's larger and break it down with these or more manageable bites, if you like, bite-sized goals. And you know, this is the strategies but out there for years, you know, you'll read about it and hear about it all the time. But you know, there's people suggested there's various reasons why it works. One of the reasons I was suggested it works is because it helps you manage those emotions. Your emotions around that small task, right, and your ability to self-regulate that, are going to be a lot easier. You might have a little bit of discomfort, but it's going to seem more likely that you can actually succeed with it, right? And so that gap then between where you are and where you want to be is smaller, which means you need less resources to get there, which means you're more likely to move forward with it and, you know, the bonuses, once you've actually accomplished that small first step, you actually then, you do a couple of things. You've got self-efficacy, so you've got that confidence and know you can do it. And you've also started, you set things in motion, right? We often think though too that just smaller tasks are easier to kind of jump into in a way. And you know, just getting started on things. People often think that we have to feel motivated before we do something. Well, there's a lot of literature and a lot of different perspectives out there that suggested it can work the other way around that just taking action is motivating. So the fact that you've just done something, it's almost like that body and emotion stays in motion. There's an inertia, a momentum that is created now that will allow you then to continue to, okay, I got that first step out of the way, then I'll go on to the next step, and the next step, and the next step. So that's one really simple way that you can make your tasks more manageable and avoid falling into those pitfalls of perfectionism and procrastination. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, this is, I guess Nike's whole slogan, like just do it. The hardest part is just sitting down to get it done or to start it at the beginning. That's usually the hardest part for me, but I've noticed that once I do just sit down to think about a framework for how I want to approach a problem or how I want to go about solving this issue, then once I do that, I feel enabled to keep moving forward with the task. Yeah, like you said, like that inertia builds. And I love this whole concept around microstaps because you can have a very strong sense of direction for what you would like to broadly achieve within the next few months or one year or five years, whatever that timeline looks like for you. And I think it's important to stay focused in that direction and have some sort of larger vision, but not letting that be the ultimate end all be all, like not being so focused on the outcome, but rather moving your attention more to the process and that process being, okay, hey, how are we going to break it down into those smaller goals and to those smaller microstaps? And how can I reward myself for when I accomplish, you know, part A of task one? And that I think builds a sense of greater self-efficiency as well. Yeah, no, that's exactly it. It's building those rewards in because, you know, the reason why people get, you know, caught in sort of a habit of procrastinating is it's immediately rewarding. You've got these uncomfortable emotions, you put them aside, you've got the immediate reward. So if you break a task down, so now that those uncomfortable motions are sort of dialed down to a more manageable level, there might still be uncomfortable. And you just, you know, throw yourself into it and do it. You accomplish that. You've got now got a different type of reward, right? So now you're going to be focused on the rewards you get from being productive as opposed to the rewards you get from relieving yourself of these negative moods, you know? And so that's a critical step as well. And it seems like we really have to just lean in a bit more into the discomfort so that we can feel the comfort later on, sense of delayed gratification. It's really fascinating to me how it all really does connect at the end of the day. - Another key point we raised is about this idea of focusing on the process rather than the outcome. And, you know, it goes back to that saying people probably heard before, you know, it's about the journey, not about the destination. And that is an issue, you know, we get so goal focused, we get so focused on that's where I want to be and that's where I've got to go. And, you know, we can lose sight of what can be enjoyable within the process of working towards that goal. And there's actually been some research on this that, researchers have looked at procrastinators and, well, people who prone to procrastination and people working towards their goals. And they found that if those who had took more of a process orientation so that they focused on the steps involved along the way, rather than always focusing on where they were trying to get to, they found that, you know, that particular approach gave them more meaningfulness of the task, because they were allowed themselves to sort of, you know, get involved with it. No, look at the skills I'm learning and look at how I'm developing as a person and to all those sort of process oriented types of thoughts as opposed to just constantly focusing on, I got to get there, I got to get to the end. And individuals who took more of a process orientation towards their goals tended to procrastinate less than those who were solely focused on that end point that they were trying to reach. Yeah, I mean, I think that's also really important to just keep in mind because especially when you're in college, especially by senior year, you see people achieving all these incredible things and they have all these job offers and all these incredible opportunities and it can feel really stressful when maybe you're not presented with the same opportunities as well. And so I think again, it's just so important to keep in mind that the destination, like really at the end of the day doesn't necessarily matter because you may surprise yourself with where you actually will end up if you instead focus on the path that you're taking to get there. And also knowing that there isn't one path for everyone and there's multiple paths that will lead maybe to the same outcome at the end of the day. So hopefully ending on a more optimistic note and something that's a bit more empowering, tying back into our entire conversation on procrastination and self-compassion and perfectionism. So I'd love to leave my listeners on that note. And before we go, I was so wonderful having you as a guest. One question that I ask all my guests on the podcast is what is something that brings you a bit of endorphins every day? - Every day is what I'm engaging in 'cause I had a good think about this. I mean, there's lots of things. There's always the obvious, you know, exercising and getting outdoors and nature is always nice. But one of the things that really gives me a get up of an orphan rush, I think is when I'm mentoring, you know, junior colleagues or, you know, my post-grad students and just, you know, helping them with their research and just sort of helping direct, you know, their what they're doing and feeling like I'm giving some support and it was useful. So I find those sorts of exchanges for me. I get a real rush. I always notice that I come away from those conversations just beaming and feeling really good. So I think that would be my, one of my favorite anyways, endorphin rushes. - Well, something that I learned in a positive psychology class is that engaging in pro-social behavior has really immense psychological benefits for our own well-being. So it seems like with mentorship and just giving back, that's exactly what you're doing. - Yeah, it's, well, I mean, I feel like I'm getting something out of it 'cause I feel good. So I, that's always the thing about those sorts of behaviors. You can question at the end of the day, and it's actually altruistic 'cause I feel really good by doing this today. - I guess that's a whole other conversation. - Yes. - But a very fascinating one to say the least. Well, thank you so much. It was really wonderful having you as a guest. - Oh, thanks for inviting me, Stella. It was great, great having this chat with you about procrastination. Hopefully you'll be useful for your listeners. (upbeat music) - Thank you for listening and remember to like, rate, and review this podcast on whichever listing platform you prefer. Don't forget to keep spreading endorphins and find things that bring you endorphins every day. See you next time. (upbeat music)