Ep 444 - Andre

(upbeat music) So just being really honest and having the transparent communication, I would say is one of the easiest ways to at least be on the level. But my short answer is there is no one answer. And people are gonna get hurt. You're gonna get hurt. People are gonna get jealous. You're gonna get jealous. And you're gonna have your heart broken. Someone else is gonna break their heart. And I don't know, there's something about that while it might be poetic, that reminds us that we're alive to feel something. Like if everything was easy, I don't know. Like would we be able to have some form of comparison to have something really beautiful, really magical if there isn't a time when that wasn't the case. And things were hard. So having that juxtaposition. Welcome to normalizing Naminagamy, the podcast where we interview incredible people from all over the world to hear their personal journeys of self-discovery through the lenses of love, sex, and relationships. Our mission is to show people that they're not alone and to inspire them to embrace their true selves so that together we can open minds and live authentically without shame. We believe everyone's story is powerful and beautiful, yet it's important to remember that everyone does life a little bit differently. And that the views and opinions expressed by our guests do not necessarily reflect our own. Additionally, we aren't doctors. Please consult a medical professional for anything regarding your health that you might learn about on the show. Enjoy. - Well, welcome to episode 44. Guess what? - What? Is it a talent show, Matt? (laughs) - It is, it's been a little while. - It is for sure. (laughs) - So it was episode 44 today. - That's an inside joke for our long time. - Long, long, long time. - Long, long-term listeners. So thank you all for being here. - We're Emma and Finn. And today we have an absolutely beautiful conversation with Andre. He shares his powerful journey over the last 12 years or so after getting out of the Marines and finding his way to San Francisco where it's safe to say he had a life-changing experience or two. - Or maybe even three. - Yes. - But you'll have to stick around for the bonus episode. If you want to hear about how Andre and his ex-wife got banned from a hospital. But anyways, like you said, Emma, this is a really beautiful conversation. And it really captures the messy and imperfect adventure we're all on here on Planet Earth as humans. And Andre shares a vulnerably about the challenges and struggles he's faced in sex and relationships as well as what he's learned along the way. We also talk about relationship design, writing their own rules, befriending jealousy and Andre digs into his big why when it comes to exploring non-monogamy. - As you'll hear, Andre also shares a bit about his work on "Sergant Partner Therapy" as a somatic intimacy guide and coach and he talks about his experience being on the TV show "Virgin Island," which by the way is a fantastic show. - Yeah, we had such a great time watching it when the first season came out a couple of months ago. Well, I think it came out last year or so. - Last year, yes. And we also just realized that season two started releasing episodes a few weeks ago. So we need to wrap this up and go watch. - Yeah, as we were doing the research to put these show notes together, I was like, when season two coming out and I was like, oh my God, it's happening, it's happening. - So you could already go watch season two. You can find more about Andre's work in the show notes near podcast player or by heading over to our website, "NormalizingNom and Omnogamy.com" and clicking on the podcast tab. And yes, go watch "Virgin Island." - Yeah, and definitely check out all of Andre's work again. You'll hear him talk about it, but it is incredible and it is super powerful. And as we teased a moment ago, you were definitely gonna wanna stick around, come back for the bonus episode with Andre. If you're not familiar, our premium subscribers get ad-free podcast episodes plus a new 10 to 15 minute bonus episode every single week where I guess answers some fun extra questions and give us an opportunity to get them know them. Woo, to get to know them even deeper than we do during our regular interview. You can sign up on the homepage of our website at normalizingnam andogamy.com for just $4 a month. And if you do it right now, you'll get to hear us. You'll get to come back and hear us talk with Andre about orgasms, edging, his favorite sect advice. And of course, you'll get to hear how him and his wife got banned from a hospital. So go join us. We would love to have you check it out. Thank you in advance for supporting our work and supporting the podcast. - And with that, it's time to jump right into the interview with Andre for all of our premium subscribers and for everyone else a few announcements. First up, we hosted relationship recess at the beginning of the month just the other week. And it was absolutely incredible. - Maybe you heard us talk about it over the last, I don't know, six or seven months, every single week. - Or your. - Yeah, it's been a while since we've been telling you about this and we finally. - It actually happened. - It finally happened and it was mind blowing and incredible weekend. So yeah, we will be back to tell you all about it more and more detail and we'll even tell you about the next one when it's happening and how you can join. - Yeah, it's more details coming soon about future events and a huge thank you to everyone who made it as well. - Yeah, thank you to Gary from Breakthrough Play and the team from Malta Amory, as well as all of our volunteers. And really everybody who joined us, who took a chance on us, we've been telling you about this for months and months and months and we didn't really have any way to be like, here go over here and look at this example. We didn't have any really great way to explain to you what it was gonna be like and you all took a chance. And I think, I don't know, safe to say we all had a fucking incredible time. - Yes. - So thank you everybody who took a chance on us to make this happen. We cannot wait to do it again. - And next up, we wanted to remind all of you that we lead a community full of over 300 people socializing and supporting one another every single day. We host a community on a platform called Mighty Networks and we have monthly community support Zoom calls, monthly virtual workshops and in-person events all as well, all for less than $10 a month. Our next monthly workshop is coming up May 27th, mark your calendars. It is going to be with Mishae, who previously did the Ask Us Anything episodes within a few years ago. - Yeah, amazing. Mishae is incredible. We've had her lead workshops at previous retreats and things like that. So definitely don't wanna miss this one. - This workshop that she's leading is called Building Emotional Resilience and will provide a grounded experiential space to build your emotional toolkit as you navigate nominee. - Yeah, you can find out more about this workshop and every other workshop that we have coming up the rest of this year. Plus all of the workshops we've done over the last year and a half over under the workshops tab of our website. And a quick reminder that as a member of our community, you not only get whatever monthly workshop is happening that month, you get access to the recordings of all of our previous workshops. So for less than $10 a month, you get access to almost 20 workshops at this point. So definitely go check that out. Join us. We'd love to have you. - Next up we wanted to remind all of you about our favorite way to get tested for STIs. Yes, we have a favorite way to get tested for STIs. - And you should too. May we suggest an option. It is as tdcheck.com. This is a service video that I have been using for years. You've heard us talk about it for years. It is fast, easy, discrete. And when you use the links on the resources tab of our website, you get $10 off making a 10 panel test, only $129. And you support the podcast. So thank you in advance for using those links and for knowing your sexual health status. - And the last thing that we wanted to tell you I was just that we would absolutely love to hear from you. If you have any thoughts, questions, or feedback about the podcast or guests or really anything, we're here and we would love to have an email from you. You could also reach out for our favorite reason, which is to come on the podcast just like Andre did and just like the other 400 and some guests that we've had come on the show over the years. We would love to have you, you listener, come on and share your story. This podcast doesn't happen without people like you. So thank you in advance for doing that as well. Oh, I suppose you can find that over under the contact us tab of our website. - And now let's go and talk with Andre. (upbeat music) - Well, welcome to the podcast, Andre. We're excited to chat today. - Yeah. - Get to know you, we know very little about you. Actually, we did see you on Virgin Island season one. So we know, we know those little snippets, but other than that, we don't know much about you. So we're excited to chat today. Welcome to the podcast. - Thank you for having me. I'm glad that you got to watch the show and exciting that in about a month or so, the next season will be coming out. - I know we're looking forward to it. We had such a good time watching the first one. So yeah, super excited for that. We'll talk about that in a few minutes, but just wanted to give you a chance to introduce yourself at whatever level you are comfortable. - So I've been teaching as well as learning, educating myself around intimacy sexuality for better part of 12 years. You should be in the military, former Marine officer, currently living in Barcelona, Spain. I coach people in the realm of nominogamy, sexual challenges. I also do sorry, Compartment Therapy, which was the work that was featured in Virgin Island. And yeah, I feel like I need to write a book one day because there's just been so many different chapters in my life, but I feel like that's a good summary of me. - Yeah, yeah. - Link to pre-order your books in the show notes in the 12th to 15 years. (laughing) - You order now? - Pre-order now, yeah, you don't want to miss out. - I'm no entitled. You mean come up with a subtitle to start with? - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Well, maybe since we teased Virgin Island, maybe we just talk about that for a second, give people an idea of what that work was like or what the show was. From your perspective, is somebody who was part of it rather than somebody who watched it. Yeah, what that show was, that show was it felt like an experience that took a group of individuals who were having challenges connecting to their own pleasure, fears around intimacy, maybe never experiencing any deeper intimacy into the fold of what that experience might be and myself and other experts were there to help guide them through the challenges that they came to the island with and I would say the majority, if not all, left with a new, found sense of courage, connection to self desire for relationships to come. Yeah, it was a social experiment. It's never been done before and luckily channel four was able to put this out into the world, took a risk because sex and sexuality and showing intimacy is still very taboo. Like there's a large part of the world that just thinks it's sinful or wrong, it should be behind closed doors. We live in one of those parts of the world. Yeah, and it's unfortunate but also when we have conversations like the one we're having today, when we're able to have courageous individuals deciding to put that on TV and also the contributors, the people that were so vulnerable to showcase themselves, then it becomes less taboo, it becomes more normalized. So yeah, a social experiment that was felt like just the greatest opportunity to be a part of. Yeah, I would say from the viewer side, it was like, you know, there's like, I would say a stigma probably rightfully so around reality TV and how sensationalized it all gets and this like, it didn't feel like that at all. Like there were a there were a few moments where like the editing, you know, they're trying to get you hooked for the night. But like all in all, like it was it was like the the cast, everybody on it was like supportive of one another. It wasn't about the drama. It was like, how do we show up and help each other do this really hard shit? And I thought that it was just amazing and and I think to it was like a lot of the people on there like really, really struggled. But you could see yourself in like so many like so many of the experiences that people had you like, okay, yeah, that's me too. Like all like so many parts of myself. I'm like just happening real time on the screen and you're yeah, so it was I highly recommend. Yeah, opportunity to showcase something that so many people like the majority of people struggle with in one way or another. Right. And I like I said it when we were filming, I say it today, thinking about like the age range between like 21 and 31, there was no way in hell I would ever have the courage to no publicly come on. And and like you said, like, you know, a lot of reality TV feels very like kitschy and like produced and performative. And yes, while there might have been moments, I came in with my own skepticism that that might be the case and it was so real. Like everything that transpired, those weren't scripts, those weren't staged, that wasn't performing for a camera. That was showcasing challenge. That was showcasing work like surrogate partner therapy and sexological bodywork, things that people have never heard of. And a really conscious and beautiful way. So yeah, I had the same concern about saying yes to coming on and I'm so glad that I did. Yeah, I love it. It was really great to hear that that what we saw like really did near what what the experience was. So yeah, we'll put links in the show notes so people can go find it, but I really want to watch it. Yeah, I highly recommend going and checking it out. Yeah, for sure. So I'd love to switch gears a little bit and ask you kind of what your relationship ecosystem looks like today. So I've been practicing some form of Nominogamy. I like to say consensual Nominogamy for the better part of 12 years. I started that exploration back in around 2014, time frame. Right now, currently, I have a woman that I'm seeing. We are, we've been seeing each other for about a year and a half. This is her first exploration into open relating. And I say first exploration for her, but still like for me, even though I have had these years of experience, every person that you go into this experience with is going to be different. So I'm still learning you know, new ways of how to connect and our agreements and our boundaries. And then while we're also primarily exploring together, we're always shifting and seeing what new avenues we can open up. So there's still like potential lovers and you know, solo exploration that happens as well. But my ecosystem currently is quite small because I live in Barcelona, Spain. And I've just moved here recently. So getting to build my local community, but it's been, it's been a lovely, lovely adventure. Yeah. Amazing one. And I'm really curious what happened. It sounds like 12 years ago was a big time for you. Sounds like that was you started now monogamy a little bit and you shifted into this work around sexuality and in all of this. So I'm curious, what was going on 12 years ago that that everything shifted for you? Yeah, I left the military and moved to San Francisco. Corruption. And since both of you live in the Bay Area, I think you know exactly what I'm talking about, but for those who've never been or want more context going from a place where in the military, it's very structured, very rigid, not a lot of creativity or openness to vulnerability or intimacy, which you know, it's a military organization. So it might be hard to do both of those. Moving to then San Francisco, one of the bedrock, you know, locations in the world around openness, creativity, progressiveness. That's where I started my psychedelic exploration. That's where I started learning more about my own sexuality, learning more about different relationship dynamics that I could potentially, you know, are taken. Even though I would say my understanding of who I was and what I desired in relationship happened long ago, like in my teens, I just didn't have the language around it. I didn't understand what non-monogamy was or the ability to love, you know, multiple people. It was just something I didn't know. So moving to San Francisco was really the jumping off point for me. And I had such incredible experience, but also, you know, as you both, I'm sure, know like any relationship is going to be challenging, any relationship dynamic, and learned a lot of mistakes along the way. It wasn't just, you know, sunshine and rainbows and everyone like, you know, having multiple orgasms and it was just perfection. It was, it was hard, but I can't imagine going back to what I would, like, term as a traditional monogamous relationship. Yeah. Yeah. And I, so I'm, sounds like before the military and like in high school and things like that, you had an inkling of relating differently to people, but never having the language and then going into the military, I imagine kind of shutting that down. I know I'm putting words in your mouth, but I'm curious kind of how they're about. Yeah, I would say, I mean, thinking back on the relationships I was having, I would be dating someone and then I would like someone else, but in my mind, I'm like, oh, if I like this person, that means that I don't like this person anymore. So I have to end this relationship to then go to this relationship. And then I was just hopping around and it didn't make sense to me in my body, but that's again, all I knew, like this one way of relating. And then, yeah, fast forward into the military, I would say I was fortunate enough to be surrounded by and find some really wonderful open-minded individuals, you know, all genders. And doing so allowed me to really start diving into that exploration of self with intimate connection, desire, pleasure. And then fast forwarding again to moving to San Francisco when I was really diving into the exploration of open-related having some really beautiful sexual, deep connected experiences with more than one person just opened my mind. So did plant medicine and psychedelics as well, but, you know, in conjunction, it really allowed me to see a whole new world. And yeah. I feel so fortunate for my time there. - Yeah, well, I'm curious about that. When you land in San Francisco, it's kind of, I mean, I know we had a little bit of this. You land and you're just like, whoa, every, like pretty much if you want to find it, it's here. You probably don't even have to look too hard. And so I'm curious why. - It's a different place than anywhere else, especially in the US. - Yeah, so I'm curious what it was like, actually like for you in those early days of like, okay, I have these inclinings as a kid, and but now it's like, it's real. It's happy, like I'm watching it happen. I'm maybe having opportunities. What was that like for you in those early days of like landing in it? - Yeah, let me go back to that time. - Yeah. - It was exhilarating, like feeling into my like body, thinking back at that time, it was exhilarating. It was nerve-racking. It was scary for sure, like thinking about all of the parts of myself that were fighting what I was, what I thought was the one way to relate, the one way to be in relationship. So there was a lot of shame, initial shame and guilt around, you know, having experiences or at the time, my former partner and I, when we were exploring with other people, whether it be a single individual or couples or groups, being very unsure about what I was doing was okay. Like again, the shame, the shame spiral. So it was a multitude of emotions, but ultimately, it was education. I think that's the best way to describe it. I just learned so much about myself, even though I was having these experiences with other people, I was learning more about myself and what was capable, and also where I had fears, where I had anxieties, like my relationship with jealousy, with insecurity, with being what I like to consider a very, you know, empathetic being and highly sensitive, and feeling like the energy of multiple people having sex or exploring desire in the same room, and what that was doing to me, whether it would be a turn on or something that was overwhelming, and I needed to remove myself from the space. So yeah, the initial years, I would say years, it took me years to finally hone in on also what I was desiring and open relating outside of just the pure physical pleasure. Yeah, educational is the best way to describe it. Yeah. And I'm curious what it was that you sort of landed on, when you said you kind of honed, like what was I getting out of, what was I looking for? Like what's the thing that brings you back and drives you in non-monautically? That's a good question. The piece that I communicate often to any new person that I'm meeting in my life, or say like I also coach people in this, like I help people navigate, nominogamy. I share this part of myself because every person's going to be different. The initial few years was no idea what the fuck I'm doing. I'm just going to go out on as many dates as I can. I'm going experience pleasure in every form or facet. Multiple different bodies, genders, just seeing what was out there. And when I was tuning in, I realized what I was truly desiring was the freedom to allow for the possibility of anything to transpire, meaning that while I enjoy sex, it feels good. And it's fun. After you've had sex with multiple people, multiple different occasions over years and years, yeah, it still feels good. Now, where's the substance for me? This is my experience. So what I really was craving was just the ability to go deeper into emotional connection, build community, where I might sleep with someone once in two years. But the rest of the time is playing board games or having movie nights or traveling. So I realized that I just wanted to leave the door open for the possibility of what could be, rather than seeking or trying to find something, it was more, let's see what unfolds. And that's still where I am today. Any relationship I'm in, I share that while I might have intimate physical connection, maybe even romantic connection with other people, it's not for a lack of desire in, say, like the primary relationship that I'm in. It's just wanting to see what's possible rather than close the door to say, I can't do this because some societal structure said that I could not. - Yeah, yeah, establishing those connections first and then being open to seeing where they might go. - Absolutely. How about for you both actually, I guess, what have you both honed in on in your relationship now? - Yeah, I mean, honestly, very similar in many ways. I think that, I mean, we've experienced a lot of the in different ways throughout our relationship and in this phase right now, figuring out kind of an equilibrium of what really works for us individually and for our relationship. And I think so much of that is being able to be open to the possibility with the unknown possibility with other people, like focusing on the connection first and whether that's a friendship and you play board games every week for a year and that's the friendship great. But that also might shift and change over time too. - Yes, yeah. - How do you add? - Well, I think for me, yeah, the way you described it, Andrea, I was just like, damn, it's a good thing that this is being recorded because it felt very, it felt really, really similar for me is it's like, you know, it's often like meeting somebody and being like, wow, this person just like seems like an incredible person. I'd love to get to know that more. And I think it's very much that like, I don't necessarily want to limit what that could look like. I also know that like, my life does have limits to what that could be. Like I'm not in a place where I can just be like, let's do just like a four day whirlwind, love a fair and run off to like, you know, you know, go on vacation for it, like I can't do that. So it's-- - We don't know when that one the hard way too. - Yeah, we don't. You jump in sometimes, right? And so I think it's that piece of like, there's like this sort of push pull sometimes that they'll be like, oh, I want the absolute freedom to do whatever. But I think the place I'm getting to and have really gotten to the last few years is like, how do I do that within the constraints that my life allows? And there. So it's like, it's really this like, okay, here's what we're both feeling and here's what would be amazing. But also here's what both of our lives look like. Then like, where does the vent diagram overlap? And be like, okay, well, what do we do with that? And how do we have fun with that? And so like, the way you described it like, yeah, I might see somebody and we play board games and hang out and it's nothing sexual or physical for 99% of the time. And then, oh, but it's okay if we got naked and got in a hot tub or we cuddled or we fooled around. But that also doesn't mean that like, now we don't ever play board games again. - Right. - That we just got on and escalator and the next time we see each other, it's gotta be that plus something. - Totally. - Let's just be in what we're in and talk about what feels good and what doesn't and just keep updating each other. - Yeah, I love that. Yeah, I like how you mentioned the escalator because I think about like my early exploration in me feeling something stronger than just what might be a platonic friendship and then thinking like, oh, am I supposed to do something now? Am I now supposed to check in with this person every day or are we now supposed to like put a label on something? And that would say that's part of the growth and the education I've learned is not everything needs a label and also not every connection needs to be on that escalator to whatever you might desire in a one partnership or primary partnership that comes with traditional monogamy. - Yeah. Yeah, well, and it's interesting here when you say that too because I think that to something you said a few minutes ago about like every relationship, every connection we have is like a little bit different and I think there's just so much learning and unlearning that comes with that 'cause to your point, like do I need to check in every day and it's like sometimes you meet somebody who's like, yeah, I really want you to check in tomorrow and then you meet somebody who's like, if you check in the next day without asking, like what are you doing? And you're like, I don't know, I thought that's what we do. And then like, I don't need this shit. And you're like, okay, well, I don't know how to do anything. I guess like it's just like, so it's like, it's just this education, like I gotta ask. and also be okay like. messing it up, quote unquote, messing it up. Like, you know, that's a pretty low stakes thing to be like, "Hey, how are you today? How are you feeling after last night?" Like, what's this? You know, like that's a pretty low stakes, you know, an error to make and then you just learn. Like, oh, okay, well-- - Well, I don't even think it's an error. - It's not, it's just preferences. - Well, and you're learning each other and you're learning different people and you're learning yourself along the way too. And a, yeah, it takes effort for sure. It takes effort and intention and learning and growth and correction and all the things. - Absolutely, I would say like, you know, anyone who is either currently exploring or interested in exploring alternative relationships, it's not easy, but also no, from my perspective, no relationship is easy. It takes work and, you know, there's gonna be trade-offs depending on which direction you go. If you're, I look at it as a spectrum, you know, very traditional monogamy to what we might turn like relationship andarchy. There's so much swing to where things can go, but ultimately, nowhere is going to be risk-free. This kind of be work that needs to be had, yeah. - Yeah, yeah. - Without a doubt. - To your point, even, I mean, even a monogamy, right? It may look different, you may not be communicating with as many people, but there's still work there. - For sure. - Yes. - Well, and I would even argue too, that there's still these potential bridges you have to cross, right? Like you're a monogamous, but you have a really great friend and it's, you know, you hang out a lot and it's flirty, but that's your friend's partner. And it's like, okay, well, how do I navigate this? 'Cause I think, you know, my old way was just be like, well, just don't ever talk to him. Like, I can feel there's energy. So make myself as far away as possible. So it goes away. Instead of being like, well, could we have like, talked about it and acknowledged it and then just been like, oh, yeah, I do think you're attractive and you think I'm attractive and that's it. And that's what we're gonna do with it. - I've been there. - I've been there. (laughing) - Well, you know, similar, I guess maybe along with that, and tied into, you're mentioning that you were like, feeling like it's very empathetic and highly sensitive person. When you were talking about, just a moment ago, when you were kind of talking about this, the don'd on me, or something that I maybe experienced myself and I'm curious for you is like, when you can maybe feel that somebody else wants something more, maybe you're right, maybe you're wrong, but like you can kind of feel it like, oh, I'm supposed to do more, or I can tell they want more. I'm curious like that part of your sort of learning, like was there a lot of crossing your own boundaries and your own capacities because, well, I can feel them pulling me onto the escalator and that's what I should do. - Short answer is all the fucking time. When it comes to like crossing of my own boundaries, I would say that's the one piece of my educational journey that will forever be like constant, it'll never be settled is figuring out what my boundaries are because they change. And how do I hold them in a way that honors myself while also considers the other human beings that might be part of this? Because yeah, could I be absolutely selfish and say I don't care about anyone else's feelings, just what I'm feeling? Sure, but that doesn't speak to my soul and the way that I enjoy relating with people. So yeah, that happened all the time. And I find that for me, when it comes to like figuring out how to find the balance, it's challenging, like just in short, it's hard. And for me, I think one of the reasons why when I am first exploring like in a new city or a new place, I generally like to find people who have experience in open-related, already have some form of like relationship, or partnership rather than being a single individual, because it's a nice protective mechanism for me to say, I know at least this person has someone else they can fall back on or rely on, even if like stronger feelings are felt, I know that they're not going to just be solely relying on me. And that's something that I used to enjoy kind of being the mentor, your brand new to this space, come along, let me show you this wonderful magical world. And while that can still be fun, I also find, there is more challenge when getting to the harder parts of jealousy, of attachment that everyone's journey is different. I'm just quite a busy individual and maybe don't desire at doing that as much in the present. - Yeah, well, and I think that being a similar, I think experience probably for both of us here, just like being super busy, like it does work better to find people who are also busy. I think it's for me, for us, right? But I can also see that like some people be like, well, I'm super busy, so I look for partners who aren't busy, so they're just available when I am. And I think that's just-- - Both ways. - Speak to like, we could all be looking for different things, but yeah, I think really, really, like, I'm like, well, I'm really busy. It's actually really good that you're really busy 'cause neither one of us is sitting around sort of pining for the other one. We're just both saying, oh, cool, we're both busy. Oh, there feels for me like less hurt feelings when I'm like, oh, I can't go out next week because I'm doing this and they're like, oh, well, I totally get it 'cause I'm gone the next three weeks. And so I guess, hey, no problem, we'll see each other in two months. - Yeah. - And nobody's okay with that. - It's funny you say that because, you know, as I'm getting to know more of the open community here in Barcelona, Barcelona itself is a very like, transient city, people coming in, coming out. I sometimes have to schedule something three months in advance just to have one evening with this couple or this individual, but I think it's important to also just say that there is no one way of like exploring these types of dynamics and sometimes it's good that you have someone who can match you in your busyness. I find one of the strongest elements that are as important for me in the connections I make is some form of felt independence, meaning that it's okay if you're busy. It's okay if there's nights that you really want me to come over or I might really desire to see you, but also not forming some form of un, I call unhealthy attachment where now we have to be doing all of these things together. We have to be checking in or sharing our phones and even if we've just met like two weeks ago. So that's something I very much appreciate in anyone that I'm connecting with is that they're independent and I know that they can stand on their own and aren't just solely relying on me. - Yeah, yeah, that's huge. Like I think, well I'm curious kind of along those same lines, other things that you've learned in relationship as you have a lot of-- - How much time do we have? - Right, I mean, yeah, maybe some of the highlights. - Yeah, you know, I don't know if, I've spoken on many different podcasts around this subject and it's often talking about some of the really like delicious sexy times, but I don't often go into the harder times, the challenging ones. So I think one of the things that I learned for myself is that not every person is going to, and this might sound very cliche and like obvious, but not every person that comes into your life is meant to be there for a long period of time. They might be there for a couple days or a beautiful like weekend getaway. They might be there for a year. They might be there for longer, but I think we put a lot of pressure on ourselves to once we start feeling something deep, once we have really delicious sex, once there is this feeling of stars aligning that I need to hold onto this, even when it starts to feel like maybe it's run its course. And it's a hard lesson, like it doesn't make it easy when those times transition, but for me, one of the biggest lessons was celebrating the short relationships. The ones where I learned a lot in a short period of time and it was okay that it was just a short period of time, that it didn't have to stand the test of time. But that's also a hard lesson to learn as you feel something deep for someone. It's almost compulsory to like want to find a way to make it work or make it last, even when you have all these signals in your body and your brain saying this might need to have a stopping point. - Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it makes me think of, I mean, just, I think, I think I said just a minute ago about like, I couldn't jet off on a weekend love affair, right? But I think there's also, You know, I'm not saying this is what I have right now, but the idea that like oh that could be all it is Right, it could just be that like we both happened to land in the same city for a weekend We met each other on the first night on a whatever and food tour and like we had a whirlwind 48 hours and then at the end of it It's not like okay, well, where you how do we keep how do we keep this going? How do we keep this magic from here on out instead of being like yeah? That was a that was an incredible 48 hours Let's keep in touch, but like we don't have to make it something That's a hard goodbye to do if you're just like you're just swimming in all the chemicals and Excitement of it. Yeah, that new relationship energy is like one of the strongest drugs out there And and I've tried a lot of different substances, so I can speak to it There are a few drugs that you can go on benders for like five six days and Then you like come up to oh wow, okay And then last nine yeah nine months or 12 months Yeah, yeah, it's a it's a real thing and And I actually credit Women that is still in my life and we've had so many different ways that our our relationship has shifted and transition from lovers to Deep friends to not we only maybe talk every like four or five months, but how she approaches relationship or Connection was such a gift to witness because the way that she Connects is she might meet someone at a grocery store and have like a five minute conversation and feel the sparks that we're talking about and you know invite them to come stay at her home for Three days four days and just be in this amazing crazy love bubble and then that be it and and but she never wanted to like Stop herself and say oh wait a minute the logical part of me says I should take this slow or only you know Wait two days before I text this person. She's like no if I have this feeling and it's deep and I want to You know explore this I'm gonna do that even if it is only a few days so Yeah, I really credit my time of knowing her because she opened my mind and my eyes to You don't have to Follow these like like rules of life you get to make your own rule book Yeah, no, I love that and you know curious in this for you Andre how That I'm just like sitting here thinking of like the right word and because it's not how do you do this without hurting other people because I think in some ways It's inevitable right you're gonna there's going to be hurt. There's gonna be sadness There's gonna be grief but like how do you relate in this way that? Also cares for other people right like if you're gonna meet somebody at the grocery store and Bite them back to your home for a couple days. How do you set that container? I know this is an essay your experience but like how do you do that in a way that at the end of that three days? The person you don't just like kick him out on the street and they're just like whoa what the hell just happened You know like their head spinning. Yeah. Yeah, it's a Man if I had the the answer to that question and then knew that that would be like, you know put that in like writing and Every relationship would just be easy street. I feel what I've learned from myself is just being Unapologetically honest and transparent Like saying the hard things like having those very Authentic conversations and I say that and people might be listening and saying oh, yeah, well done that would be like You know that's obviously like an easy answer but putting it into practice is a lot harder Like I'm sure both of you can think about times when you didn't do the thing that you actually wanted to do because you were so concerned about hurting someone else. I know I've had too many experiences like that to count or Or there's a piece of you that is trying to Maybe like protect yourself. So you don't You know tell this person that you love them or ask their number because In some form of fashion you're like going ten years into the future and you're like oh this isn't gonna work So I'm not going to explore this in this moment. So you limit yourself So just being really honest and having the like transparent communication I would say is One of the easiest ways to at least be on the level Yeah, but my short answer is there is no one answer and like it it's going it's people are gonna get hurt Yeah, you're gonna get hurt. Yeah, people are gonna get jealous You're gonna get jealous. You're gonna have your heart broken someone else is gonna break their heart um and I don't know there's something about that while it might be like poetic that Reminds us that we're alive to feel something like if everything was easy I don't know like would we be able to have like some form of comparison to like have something really beautiful really magical if there isn't a time when That wasn't the case and things were hard. So having having that juxtaposition Yeah, yeah Yeah, it is important the the roller coaster even though it's not always fun. It's important Yeah, yes, well and I agree and I and I think too there's so much, you know, even with this Radical or trying to be as honest and transparent with somebody as possible right if you're like hey I'm back to this because it feels like kind of an extreme case is like yeah I met you at the grocery store if you're sitting there in the produce. I'm like hey You're gonna come back. We're gonna do these things and then on Sunday This is where it's it's gonna look like this would that work for you and like somebody might be like, you know Yeah, that would really work and then come Sunday morning. They're like No, this did not work. I don't want to like you know, so we we also have to leave room for the fact that like We might think we can do something and then we try it and and work didn't work out or we you know I think maybe tying it all the way back to something you said earlier is like I I had to try a lot of different things and you actually have to like try him instead of just like reading about it in a book Right, it's like okay. I read that thing could I do it? Oh, I thought I could do it and I really couldn't or I didn't think I could do this one But look at that it works great for me Yeah, yeah as you as you were saying that I was thinking about something I recently read around the idea of like blame Like whether we're blaming ourselves for something not working out or blaming someone else instead of blaming Just seeing that experience as a lesson Seeing that experience as a oh what did I learn from this rather than I can't believe I did this or I can't believe they did that that to me and really Which also for me has been a lifelong journey of Realizing is what we can control So we might be able to tell someone exactly what we're able to provide them how we can show up what our boundaries are like just so fucking honest and Someone might not hear a single word that we said and they're gonna have their feelings and then we'll be like What the fuck like I just said all these things I told you where I could what I could do Did you not hear me and then we get into that again that like blaming rather than saying Okay, I realized I did the best that I could I'm able to control what is in my own universe which is basically just maybe in my body my emotions And that's about it. Yeah everything else. I have zero control over you could think that you have the best communication That you're just you know a guru when it comes to relating and you can still be In relationships that are really fucking tough because this other person has their own emotions and their own way of Processing that might not match yours. Yeah. Yeah, it's really inconvenient to them to have Pretty rude if you ask Yeah, I'm curious Something that is very common knotted. We hear about people navigating Naminagami and all to like other relationships is dealing navigating with jealousy and those insecurities that come up And I'm curious about your experience with that and have that spend something you you've navigated. Oh, yeah. Yeah, for sure I would say Every human being is going to be wired a little bit differently and I feel somewhat fortunate that jealousy Has I've been able to make good friends with jealousy Hasn't happened too often in my life, but it still happens I want to say that but before anyone's like oh like he never gets shut. No, I definitely do But I've just learned through my own practice through my own education how to Understand what that jealousy is and rather than putting it on someone else to like caretake What are my responsibility around jealousy and I I see jealousy as something that we feel like we're not getting in the relationship and it's not so much the responsibility of someone else to know this. It's for us to be able to communicate that. So if it's, I'm feeling jealous because I feel deprioritized. Like we used to spend more time with each other, but now you're spending more time with this person rather than the blaming of like, you know, I can't believe you're doing this or like holding on super tight to that individual. It's like, what do I need to help make sense of these feelings that I have? And going back to the honesty and the communication, that's something that I've learned how to make sense of. And you might be listening and also say like, oh, but I'm never jealous. That's never happened to me. I've got, I'm super secure, super confident, wonderful. I, you know, happy for your journey. And you never know what person is going to come in to bring in that moment of jealousy. So it's rather rather than a boating jealousy or trying to pretend like it doesn't exist. Like I said, making friends with it. Rather than this thing of like, oh, I'm feeling jealous. That means non-monogamy is in for me. That means this relationship that I'm in isn't going to work. Rather saying, okay, this is just a feeling. And how can I, how can I process this? Whether it's on my own, through support, I would say having some form of coach or therapist, if you're exploring non-monogamy and you're running into challenges, rather than trying to fix that just on your own. Like seeking outside perspective is a great way to help process that that jealousy. Yeah. Yeah, no, I love that. And I think to, you know, one of the things that I heard in there was I think the still, the transparency and the honesty still play in here, right? Because not putting it on somebody doesn't necessarily mean don't tell them you're experiencing it, right? And I think that's somewhere that I know we've, we've stumbled and we see lots of people stumble is, well, I'm feeling this, I'm just going to hide it. I don't want you to know I'm feeling it because that makes me bad at non-monogamy or bad at being a partner. And it's like, no, you can, you can talk about it, you can share it. It's about, it's about not making them responsible for it. Like, hey, I'm still responsible for me. But like, here's what's going on and you're probably going to feel it. Well, and also it's going to likely come out other ways, even if you try to hide it. Yeah. Resentment will build like, you know, a little snarky like comments. And I've done that before. I've definitely like felt jealousy and, you know, because again, you know, at the time being seen as like a pillar in the community in my time in San Francisco of the relationship I was in and, you know, having to like have this persona of someone who just has this all figured out. Mm-hmm. The moments that jealousy came in like, wow, I can't show that this is a hard thing because if it's hard for me and everyone's looking at us and saying, you know, if they can't fucking do it, there's no way I can. Yeah. That was unnecessary pressure that I put on myself and also unfair because it was painting a false picture, which is, yeah, jealousy happens and it's important, as you say, to like, just be able to name it. And if like one like little exercise I would say if you're like listening and you're wanting to figure out how to share that your jealous or have a tough conversation, I would always recommend not being like in a confined space. I always like to go for a walk. Go for walks where your body's moving, where you're outside because sometimes when you're in a, like a stationary place and you're feeling a lot of emotion, you start to like get a little like anxious or and then that's where sometimes defensiveness comes in. So taking walks is a great way to help process the emotions that you're having in your body, being able to breathe. And yeah, again, knowing that it's okay, it's okay to be jealous, you're not doing it wrong, you're not sucking at open-related, it's very natural. Yeah. Yeah. And I love that you bring that up. Definitely don't recommend in a car. Good point. Yeah, when we say movement, movement outside of a vehicle. We often recommend the walk too and I think the other thing that comes along with that is it puts you side by side with the person and you're rather than face to face where you're maybe feeling like there's some, I don't know, symbolism in that. That is like, yeah, we're walking together side by side towards something. How do we oppose each other here? Yeah, I love that. I think it was also funny here and you say that like, you don't know where, like what person's going to come in or what situation is going to happen that might trigger jealousy. It reminded me of, we talked to Danielle, who's one of the, one of the hosts or one of the creators of Virgin Island and the Somaticum Method in. I know her well. Yeah, yeah. And she was telling a story about how like, I think it was like, I don't know if I'm going to get it perfect, but I think it was her husband had a partner come over and vacuum or vice versa. Like she had a part, like somebody needed the house vacuumed and a partner came over to do it. And like that was the trigger moment. It was like, all these other things were fine, but like, what is this person doing at our house vacuum? Yeah, and we've heard like hanging Christmas lights, like they had a partner over and they put a string of Christmas lights up and they're like, that's our thing. And it was like, like totally fine everywhere else. Yeah. And then something like completely, seemingly innocuous will come out and like catch you. I mean, if in that scenario, like anyone can come over and vacuum for me, like I don't like vacuum. So like, please, you're going to put the vacuum on. Yeah. That won't be my trigger moment. Yeah. Was there a moment for you that you remember back on like, where did this come from? It was it was a small moment, but it was still a moment I was able to name. I'm like, Oh, I'm that's interesting that I feel something around that, which was a former lover of previous partner. We have we have a dog that we were sharing. He took the dog on a walk and I was in a moment where I just needed to get up and move around because I'd been in like calls all day and I was really excited and and my dog wasn't there. And he was being walked by and I love this guy. Like, you know, we're really great friends, but that was a moment where I was like, that's my thing. You took my thing in that moment. So, while that's a small example, it happens. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. Because I think that's, you know, we maybe are always searching for like this was the big, but like we feel these moments little bit throughout the day, right? It can happen at the grocery store or wherever and it's just these moments of that. I think we often ignore or we're I don't know if we're taught to ignore, but we're conditioned to ignore over over time. Yeah. Oh, I just thought of another one. You know, I'm I very much enjoy practicing King, Kampi DSM in my personal life as well professionally. And I there was a moment where a former partner was sharing an experience that she was having with the Suther individual and she has shared so many different experiences and none of them hit me, but there is one where they like shared a intense moment of like like I gazing and I felt this like ping of like, oh shit, like I'm jealous of that. Like that is something that is so vulnerable and so intimate, beyond the spanking and the flogging and the penetration. Like that was the the thing that was like, oh, like I'm actually feeling jealousy in this moment from that. Yeah. I appreciate that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Small thing. Well, relatively small things that are not necessarily small, but can feel can feel small in the moment, but we actually know this is something there's a reason there. There's a reason that I'm feeling this thing. Yeah. I'm curious, what do you to start bringing this into a professional lens and doing studying working? Yeah. Well, again, San Francisco. And the carefully moved here. Yeah. If you're a bearer, Suther Bull in your life, if you don't want anything to change, don't move to San Francisco. Don't even visit. Don't even visit. So this was early on again in my my exploration and I was having a sexual physical and intimate experiences with play partners with lovers and I would say quite a few times, maybe four even five times, these experiences that the women were having. I also enjoyed I enjoy exploring with men as well, but in the early years of me, like learning more about my sexuality, I was still unlearning that, this one body is what I am able to explore and enjoy. So I was having these experiences with some of these women. And for me, it was fun, it was pleasurable, it was sexy, but I was actually being reflected back to me from them that these experiences were quite therapeutic, were actually very healing. And I didn't have language around any of this at the time, and didn't know how to respond to some of the things that were happening, like big fits of laughter, big deep emotional cries, some yelling, some lashing out like at my body. And I thought I was doing something wrong. So I would check in, I'd be like, oh my God, are you okay? What's happening? No, no, no, no, continue whatever you're doing. This is just something's coming up for me. And then afterwards hearing how that was so impactful for them, and I should do this for a living, I had a lot of my own shame and judgment around what that meant. Like, yeah. So if I'm gonna do this for a living, I have to get paid, I need to make money. So I'm gonna take people into very vulnerable, intimate experiences and ask them for money. Every alarm bell in my body was like, nope, you can't do this, that's wrong, no way. But again, after hearing it a few times and my own processing, I listened. And with some other people that were mentors who were also doing that type of work as well, allowed me to have acceptance around that. So really, I have to thank those beautiful human beings who were so vulnerable to share those experiences with me, as well as tell me I should try doing this as a profession and I'm still doing it today. Yeah. And it's always like that kind of catapulted you to learn from others and also just start to learn more in general, get more education and start down that path. Absolutely. I always like to say I'm a constant student in life and especially in the realm of intimacy in relation to human connection. I'll never stop learning because every person that you connect with is going to teach you something new. And yeah, again, I feel very fortunate that people trust me to be able to go into some really challenging spaces. Yeah. And I'm curious kind of today, what does it look? I'm sure there's different ways that you work, but what does it look like to work with you? I have different ways of working with people. I mentioned Surga partner therapy, which is a triadic model that also involves the coordination with a licensed therapist as well as well as the client. I do sacred intimate work, which is similar to Surga partner therapy, but there is no licensed therapist. It's just me and the other individual. I do in person and virtual coaching. And I realize, 'cause I was learning as I go and I'm still learning, which is every person while they might have their own individual challenge might not be well suited for a particular offering. Some people need a lot more support. Some people have a good handle on what it is that they're wanting to work on and might be better for this particular type of work. So most of the work that I do is somatic embodied physical, so there is touch connection happening. And I'm also learning more about the work as I get older and as I've been doing it for these years, as it's shifting for me is what does five years from now look like? Am I still gonna be doing this? Or am I starting to feel like transitioning to something else? So I'm constantly asking myself these questions too, because it's such an important, I find this work to be some of the most important work in the entire world, but it's also something that's very, yeah, it's very polarizing for a lot of the world as well and wanting to protect that and make sure that I'm keeping myself safe that the people that are working with me are feel safe. And if there's ever a moment that doesn't feel aligned for me, then maybe the work will need to shift for me as well. - Yeah, well, it's not work. It's not a nine to five where you just come in and you punch a time card and you're on. You've gotta be super present, super tuned, super, it's a lot of energy. - It's a lot of energy. - It is, it is. And it also, I would say it also, in some form of fashion affects my personal life as well. The way that I enjoy physical intimacy in my personal life has shifted over the years because I've got this one place that I'm doing certain things and working in a certain way. And if I'm also doing that in my personal life as well, that's gonna get boring or that's gonna start running its course. So I've also noticed how the way that I relate in my personal life, especially in the physical intimate space, has shifted. Like I desire far less like penetrative experiences in my personal life because I might be doing that a lot more in my work. So getting to go outside of what my paradigm is when it comes to physical touch and the way that I'm sharing physical energy with someone has been also exciting but also constantly evolving. - Yeah, yeah. - It makes me say, I know this is like a maybe a a brash comparison but like a professional chef, right? Like all day long at work, they're cooking, they're eating, they're experimenting with food, then they go home and like the family may not get the same five star dinner or meal but like how do you still, how do you still bring that connection back to your personal life you don't lose it. Like you don't lose that part of yourself that is purely for you and purely for your pleasure and joy, not just taking care of, guiding, you know, being in it for somebody else's growth. - Yeah, I think it actually correlates well with like open relating alternative relationship styles which is just because you've opened Pandora's Box, it doesn't mean you can't close it. So it might be a period of time where I'm not having physical connections with people or if I'm in an open relationship and say we're exploring all the different like paradigms of that that maybe we're closing, we're closing the relationship for a period of time just to come back to one another. There doesn't have to be like, okay, we've been here, now we have to just keep progressing and progressing. It's okay to take a pause or you know, take a few steps back to yeah, that made me think of that. - Yeah, totally, well and then even they're like, they may not even be steps back, they're just steps, right, there are steps any direction, that's not the same direction we were going in. Yeah, I love that. - Yeah, I'm curious if you have a blooper or something funny that has happened to show relationships, haven't don't always go as planned that you'd be willing to share, interested in sharing. - Oh my God, I mean, I've got a whole repository in the back of my head on things that have happened. I would say the first, yeah, one of the first dates I went on when I first moved to the Bay Area, I very much, I was dating someone at the time already and I explained to this woman, you know, what I was doing, I'm new, I want to get to know people, I'm not like looking for anything like serious in the moment, I'm just wanting to explore this realm and we had our date, it was not the greatest, but it wasn't the worst. And then the date ended, she came in for a kiss and I, you know, politely said, "Oh, I'm not really feeling that energy for tonight but maybe we can try to explain that again in the future." As soon as I left and got into my uber, my phone just started blowing up and she's like, "I thought we had something special." You made me think that this was going to be something that was going to, you know, last, I can't believe you did, I'm like, "Oh my goodness, like going back to, you might share so honestly." - It's true, it's not like that's exactly what happened. - And it's as if she heard none of it, so that one was just, that threw me for a loop, I was like, "Wow, that was a big lesson for me that there's nothing about anything that is solid when it comes to how you're doing." you communicate, someone might just have a very different experience. Yeah. Yeah. I just find it so fascinating to be two people on theoretically the same date, having completely different experiences. And I just, I think that's just speaks to what being human is. Right. Yeah. Yeah. It's a, it's a wild, it's a wild journey being human being. It sure is. That's the truth. Yes. Yes. Thank you so much for everything that you've shared today. And, and for the work that you do as well, definitely links will be in the show notes for anyone interested in learning more and for watching Virgin Island. But I'm curious, is there anything else that you wanted to get out there today? Yeah. I would say, you know, this is a journey they give for talking about relationships or exploring open relating. It's a journey. So even if you're having a rough time or a rough moment or you're in a moment of everything's going perfectly life and its impermanence. So things can always shift. So just be easy on yourself. Don't think that because things are hard that you're not good at it. Yeah. And just be, give yourself a lot of like grace and compassion. Yeah. I love that. Thank you, Andre. Again, being human is not easy. Yeah. Thank you both. Yeah. Thank you. And for our premium subscribers, Andre has agreed to answer some fun bonus questions. So if you are a premium subscriber, we'll be back in a few minutes. And if you are not, maybe you should be. You can find out how to be on the homepage of our website for just a couple of bucks a month. So yeah. Thank you, Andre, for being here. Thank you both. Yeah, we'll see you over in the bonus question. Okay. And we're back. Thank you so much, Andre, for coming on, sharing your story and for all of the wonderful work that you do as well. A quick reminder to listeners to go check out all of Andre's work using the links in the podcast show notes. And another reminder to all of our listeners to jump over to the premium subscription where Andre joined us for again, some additional conversations. We have a great time chatting. So yes, thank you from my side as well, Andre, for coming on and for the work you do and for supporting our work as well. It means the world. One quick reminder for all of you listeners that are next monthly community workshop is May 27th. Mark your calendars come join us. It is going to be with me, Shay and it's called building emotional resilience. You can find out more over on the community tab of our website. Also, there's a workshops tab that lists all of the details as well. We got lots of tabs. Check out the whole website. You'll have a good time. I promise. And next week we're coming back at you with another interview. This one is with Courtney. You're not going to want to miss it. So come back and listen. We'll see you next week. Bye, everyone. Thanks for listening.