Ep 44 Keeping the Happy in the Holidays - Negotiating the Chaos & Staying True to You with Damali Peterman

At the end of the day, keeping the cheer and ditching drama isn't about perfection because I know like when I'm hosting two and probably you like gathering, you're thinking about like all the things and yeah, did I check the soap and the bathroom and make sure it's the right quantity that I changed it is the food could perfectly. But to me, gathering, especially the older I get, isn't about perfection, it's about presence. And so when you're choosing empathy over ego, when you're choosing laughter over lectures, when you're choosing kindness over control, what happens is you transform the gathering from stressful to more soulful. Most of us would say when it all comes down to it, we just want to be healthy and happy. And we want that for our loved ones too. Now here we focus on the one thing that studies show us is the single most important factor in being healthy and happy in our life. It's our relationships. This is what we talk about here, our social health and how we're doing with the love and connectedness in our lives, how to find it, how to build it and why it helps us move through life with strength, support and meaning. As a song written 60 years ago has been telling us all along what the world needs now is more of this. Maybe we're finally listening. I'm Gail Bevel and this is Love Sweet Love. Okay everybody, you're going to want to get a pencil or pen for this one. And if you're driving or walking, you're going to want to pull over, maybe get your notes up out on your phone because my guest today is an internationally known author, speaker, negotiator, educator, moderator who's worked all over the world. And she is here today to talk to us about how we can get what we want and still be ourselves. And we talk about this, we talk about her book, and then we move into the stressful holiday times that are coming up and how we can keep the peace when we're with these groups of people, sometimes large groups that's stressful. We talk about this and you're going to want to listen for a couple of things. She mentions this acronym cheer. It's really helpful. You might want to write it down. She mentions these five P's she calls them and they are ways to help you avoid conversation landmines. She talks about the importance of getting on neutral and shared ground with our guests. She talks about setting boundaries and guidelines ahead of time. That's really, really interesting. And she talks about things in her book like the five essential things we need in any negotiations and a lot more. It's a great episode. You'll love it. It's entertaining, super helpful. And this is my conversation with the incredibly esteemed author, speaker, negotiator, mediator, Demali, Peterman. Here she is. Well, hi everybody. I am really glad you're here today because we're going to talk about negotiation. And why are we talking about negotiation on love, sweet love, which focuses on our connectedness and social health? Well, because negotiations don't just happen at work. They also happen in our everyday lives within many of our relationships, such as our partners, our bosses, our kids and our neighbors, and how we manage these negotiations for what we want and need can very much affect these relationships. And also we're approaching that holiday season and some of us end up spending more time than we normally do. I was going to say normally one, I guess that's sometimes the case with lots of family, lots of people, differing opinions, various dynamics going on with personalities that sometimes clash and with people who are sometimes overtired and stressed. So we need strategies for how we can get through these upcoming holiday times and remain sane while doing so. So what will help us keep the peace but also allow us to be our full selves and is that even possible? That's what I want to talk to my guest about today. And are there things we can do to increase the chances of getting what we want and maintaining the relationships that we have? So to talk with me about this today is an international expert on conflict resolution who has over 20 years of experience as a lawyer, negotiator, and a mediator. She's also the founder of two companies, an award-winning author and her expertise makes her a sought-after authority across industry, across the globe. So Demali Peterman is here with us today and Demali is the author of the award-winning and best-selling book, Negotiating While Black. Be who you are to get what you want. And it's available in over 72 countries and has won some prestigious honors such as being included in the Forbes Top 10 Negotiation Books and in 2024 was listed as one of Essence's Top 15 Summer Reads. And Demali's book has been celebrated for its insights on overcoming bias, embracing authenticity, and excelling in negotiations, cementing its place as a transformative resource for professionals and leaders worldwide. So welcome, Demali. Thank you so much for talking with me today. Thank you, girl. It's so wonderful to be here. Thank you. So I've been reading a lot of what you've written and listening to you speak. And it really is true that negotiations are something that we engage in all the time. Is that right? Absolutely. Every day, we have opportunities to negotiate. Whether it's a negotiation within our own heads, right? So am I going to go to the gym today? We'll eat that extra cookie, you know, thinking about how you're going to spend your time, right? And of course, negotiating is outside of our own heads when we're talking to other people, whether we're talking about a loved one, a colleague, or even in a high-stakes situation. They all have the same foundation, they all have the same foundation of really being able to communicate and to listen and to try to be who you are to get what you want. I want to ask you so many things about the book. I guess going back, I'm thinking, I've heard you say that you're the oldest of seven kids. Yes. And so I would imagine that that position in your family, or just even in a family of that size, negotiating probably came up with you as a kid. Is that true? And so true. And in fact, there's so many funny stories from being the oldest of seven. I told someone yesterday, I only know how to make food for like 10 people or 1 person. There's no in-between, go I, but also that's also kind of thinking about making something and trying to please different people, you're negotiating with different people. And where I was between parents and siblings, I also was a natural mediator, right, because I was the oldest. And so that definitely shaped me as a negotiator. It gave me many opportunities to negotiate before I had formal training. I bet. So what you wear, lots of different hats, as I've said in the introduction, and so how do you spend your time these days, what are you mostly focusing on out of all those things that you do? Well, I love this question. I'll tell you about this week, right? Because it changes week to week. I am a mediator. I mediate with very prestigious organization called Jans, where I help people resolve conflict. And usually we're talking about everything from commercial disputes to employment matters, to cryptocurrency. There's a whole gambit of things that I focus on. And so I'm asked to literally step in the middle of conflict on a regular basis. And so I spend a lot of my time doing that. I also train mediators globally. So what I've been working on this week is my upcoming program in Kenya, where I'll be training, not just mediators throughout the province, but also judges as well, which is amazing, because in order to have mediation be adopted and accepted into any society, you have to have judicial backing, meaning people have to know that there's more to just thinking about your case going to court or saying, "I'm going to sue you," and trying to have my day in court, there's more to it than that. There's alternative dispute resolution processes that could be better for you, depending on the situation, and can also expedite the solution, right? And so that's something that I do globally. I've also been working on my new book, by the way, you're the first to hear it. I'm going to ask you to have another book, because I just think about that so much information to share with people. I do, so on a weekly basis, I'm usually on the news or writing an article or being fortunate enough to be a guest on the podcast, like you have here today, and in the background, I'm working on other projects that are ongoing. So I want to work for my book, so you mentioned the name of my hardcovered book, Negotiating about Black, and also came out the same time as be who you are to get what you want internationally, and then Penguin released it as a paperback version this year as well. And so I'm working on a workbook to accompany that book, so it'll give people more interactive opportunities to improve their negotiation skills, and I just pitched a children's book. And you'll love the skill, because as we were talking about intergenerational. You haven't been a teacher in my whole life, but that's what I just retired from, yeah. That's right. That's right. I did read that you were a teacher. So you would love this. I actually love this on middle grade, so from age 8 to age 12, and I pitched it last week, and it would never very well. So I'll be working on a children's book, a graphic novel, and it's focusing on teaching children how to resolve conflict, how to negotiate, because you imagine, you know, imagine the adults had a lot of these skills when they were children, and they have all these years and decades to improve and hone their skills, how much better they would be at negotiating. So that's what I'm working on. Oh, that is so fantastic. I love that. You definitely teach kids about, you know, using eye messages and having a clear statement about what you want, and, you know, so there's little bits of it, but I think this is going to be so valuable for kids and for teachers. That's great. I can't wait till that comes out. When do you think it's going to come out? We'll see here. Well, you know, traditional publishing. Yeah. Six or a couple of years. But one thing's for sure, that conflict never goes out of style and school conflict, you know, that's been going on since the start of time. And so if it comes out in a couple of years, two to three years, traditional publishing, there'll still be a need for it. Oh, definitely, definitely. That's great. So what about, I know you have kids of your own. So this is funny, talking about being, for me, being a teacher, and I know you're an educator too, you teach. My kids sometimes will go, like, especially when they're growing up, like, mom, don't, you know, don't be a teacher, don't teach her me, you know? And they would listen to what their teacher said. But for me, even though I was a teacher, they'd say, my teacher says this mom. So like with your kids, do they call you out when you're using your negotiation and mediation skills with them or do they use them with you? So my kids are excellent negotiators, oh man, go, I taught them too well, they will negotiate with me. Do they call me out? You know, it's funny. I never get called out for being a mediator in a previous life. People would say, oh, don't lawyer me, right? That felt like people, people could kind of, they felt like that was happening. I'm not lawyering you right now, right? But with my kids, you know, I think what I'm most proud of, and I'm proud of many things, my boys are wonderful, I have a preteen and a teen, and they keep me on my toes, two boys. And what I love about them that I'm most proud of is that they feel very confident, you know, advocating for themselves, even if they're going up against an adversary who's literally written a book on negotiating, and I love that they will try. And they're very effective, right? But yeah, no, they don't usually call me out, but like any other kid, I embarrass them all the time, right? Oh, that's great. I bet they're going to be amazing negotiators with your two-dlig at-homes. Okay, let's talk a little bit more about your book, and the subtitle of The Hard Cover is be who you are and get what you want, and yeah, just, I really wanted you to talk about why you wanted to have that, about being who you are and still being able to get what you want in the subtitle, and was that a central part of why you wrote the book? Yeah, that's a great question. So that's the subtitle of that book, and that's the title of the International Version on the paperback version, and it was really important to me to have that, and that's my original subtitle, by the way. Oftentimes, books are acquired, they may be changed, the original title or subtitle could be changed, but all of that, those are my original title and subtitle, and which is the negotiation. Yeah, and that's a big accomplishment, right? Yeah. Yeah. And in there, so I'll say that it was really important to me because in these sort of canon of books on negotiations, what I thought was to take away from many of those books was in order to be successful, you have to be like fill in a blank person, oftentimes a male, older, you know, white, right, all of that, and if you did, you will be successful too. And I was like, how does that actually work? Like, yeah, maybe most of people are reading the books, look like this guy, and they're being perceived the way this guy is being perceived, and then maybe they'll be successful. And how can I abandon how I show up in the world, right? How can that not be perceived as a strength? And if I felt that way, I felt that other people who were looking to improve their negotiation skills or even see themselves as a negotiator, I travel globally talking about my blood. And I can tell you that there are people who don't see themselves even as a negotiator. And I'll tell you, short, quickly, I was in a cooking class in New Orleans with my mom and my sister, and there were a few nurses who were there on the girls' weekend. And they were lovely. And my mom being the proud mom's telling everyone, oh, my daughter has a book coming out. I'm like, mom, I'm just trying to learn how to make gumbo order, you know, like, I just want to be a regular person just learning how to cook, right? I wasn't gumbo, it was actually barbecue chicken, but it was delicious. And one of the nurses said, well, I don't have to negotiate in my job. I'm a nurse, I'm a nurse for a long time. And I said to her, well, do patients always do what you want them to do? And she said it laughing. She said, no, of course not. And I was like, well, what do you call it when you're getting with the patient and trying to get them to see things your way? And she goes, oh, I guess that's negotiating. But her initial reaction was, I don't negotiate in my job. And she's a nurse interacting with people who you can't control. So the bee who you are to get what you want was important because I wanted people to see, no matter who they were and what their professions were or where they lived or their experience, those or education, et cetera, that they didn't have to become someone else to be effective. They could use what they had and use the word upgraded a bit to get to that next level of really being a powerful person and negotiations and getting what they want it and getting what they want it more consistently. So that was really important to me. It was important for me for people to walk away knowing that they didn't have to be someone else to get what they wanted. So in the book, you talk about one thing that's in common, I guess you could say, because we're talking about things that are unique to each situation. But I think you say that there are five elements in every negotiation. And I think they are, correct me if I'm wrong, know what you want, what you need, how to listen closely, how to communicate, and when to close the deal. I had a couple of questions about those, number one was what's the difference between what you want and what you need? Oh, I love this. And I love this too, because the title of your podcast, of course, there are many wonderful things about it, but it's also like a song, right? Of course it's all based on that. The world at least now is love, sweet love, right? And one of the things that I think about when I'm thinking about the difference between what you want and what you need is also a song lyric. You may not always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you need to get what you need. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. For wants and needs are different. I want is what you sort of the what, right? I want to raise, I want a new car, I want to be married when I'm 30, right? Whatever people are saying they want. The need, the need is the why, right? I want to raise so that I can go back to school. I want a new car so I can have reliable transportation to get from point A to point B. I want to be married when I'm 30 because that was my mother's dream and she passed away when I was a child and I want to fulfill her dream, right? The different needs that fuel wants and oftentimes when there is a breakdown in communication or a breakdown where conflict seems to kind of seep through is where people are focusing on what they think they want as opposed to kind of peeling the onion back a little bit and identifying what they need and they aren't always the same. So that's something that comes up a lot. There are many ways that people have talked about it, you know, positions versus interests, position is a want and interest is the need. And so it's so important because when you're stuck, for anyone who's listening, when you are stuck on trying to get what you want, if you try sometimes, you might get what you need by asking yourself, "Why do I want this?" That's so important. It's almost, would you say to me, it seems like almost like a bigger picture, like the need is like a bigger picture thing, like why am I striving for this anyway? Yeah. So I'll tell you, like a lot of people ask me questions a lot about salary negotiations or new job opportunities and I always tell them and it always is a strong word, right? Like always, but this is something that I always say is don't get too stuck on some of what I call the four corners of the offer, right? Think about why you want what you want. So for example, if the salary range or max is, you know, I'm just going to throw out a number, $100,000. I was just throwing out a number, $100,000 and you want a salary of 125, right? And you're kind of pushing for that because that's what you want. But if you ask yourself, "Why do I want this?" You may realize that you want to go back to school and if you realize that, then you can stop focusing on the fact that they may be saying, "No, we don't have that. We haven't budgeted that amount. We can't do that." Do you have a tuition reimbursement program, right? Because the company could have that. But if you're focusing on just the, "I want, I want this specific amount," you may lose opportunity to get, you know, sort of why you need that amount. Or, you know, I want to put more money into a 401(k) or whatever it is if you expand your thinking, which is what you're asking me, right? You expand it. If you have more creative options and solutions, if you kind of move away from the why, the what or the want to the, sorry, if you move away from the what, sort of that, you know, what you want to kind of the why you want it to the need, then you can expand the pie. So I think it's really important for people to think about that. And most people, if you think about the last argument you had, right, or think about the last conflict you have, what was going on was a person articulating what they wanted. Did they convey at some point in the conversation why they wanted that? Did they need something if you think about, you know, all these situations where you watch on TV or on TV or on movie, or whatever, show me platform, couples that are arguing, right? And they may be like, "Oh, you didn't do the dishes, but that's not the issue. That's what they're saying." But they may feel underappreciated, right? So there's always, there are different ways to look at it. But I think that the first step is to separate the what from the need. Hmm, I think that's great advice. I can think of a lot of examples right away. And what about listening closely? I think that's a really important one. And I think people might, you know, assume when they first think about negotiation is, you're doing the talking and maybe not really focusing on how important listening is. Why do you say it's so important? Listening is, to me, the most important thing you can do in a conversation. And active listening is important because, like you said, most people, when they're preparing to speak, they're thinking about their tone, they're thinking about, you know, different places, they're very, you know, the subject, when they're thinking about the subject matter expertise they may have, they're thinking about many things. And it depends on what the speaking is for. But rarely, rarely do people practice how to listen, right? Rarely do they practice sort of, you know, what I call sort of different ways that you can actively listen. They're six that I like to teach people where you are now in the place of thinking about how to listen and not only hear what's being said, but also to pick up on not verbal cues. Also to hear what's not being said. The person is saying this, what are they trying to say? Like, you know, everyone doesn't always say what they mean, and people don't always mean what they say, right? And so oftentimes, people are reacting to what a person said, whatever those words they chose were, but not always taking a step back to kind of ask some open-ended questions, get more information, and sort of let the moment sit. So one of the things that I tell people to do is to just count to three, right? Before you respond, right? And I'm not talking about what one would call a pregnant pause, right? But just give your brain a chance to sort of really take in what the person said and not a reactive mode, but more of a sort of listening to understand mode. Mm-hmm. And that three seconds can be, can make a big difference rather than as blurting something out. Is there something that you've noticed that a lot of people get wrong in negotiations? Like, is there two things that there are probably lots of things? I think people, that's a great question, girl. I think people get wrong oftentimes the why, like why someone is asking for something. And so, and some of my big negotiations, many dollars at stake, what I would often spend a lot of time on is not what people are asking for, right? Because we're negotiating contracts, you know, especially big contracts. Things that are often like overly analyzed are things about like liability, right? Like shifting liability, and who's going to be responsible if x, y, or z happens, right? And what I would try to focus on is why, why are they asking for this? And this can be applied to any negotiation, even if your kid comes up to you, and I've been, I've happened to me many times where my kid has asked me for something and I focus on what they were saying without understanding the why, right? And then I have to peel it back and understand the why, you know, maybe there's a reason that they want to do this specific thing, and they're telling you what they want, but I don't know why they're asking for it, like what events could have triggered that ask. So in these negotiations, I think oftentimes people get wrong not figuring out the why. And when I was talking about having like these high-sign negotiations and trying to figure out the why, sometimes the why could be, I just started working here, I want to make a good impression, I want to show that I'm a heart negotiator, or the why could be, I just had a loss yesterday, I lost in a contract, and so I really got to do a good job or this. Sometimes the why is, this is a difficult client, and you know, no matter what I do, things aren't going to go right. So the why is not always what you think it is, right? It's not always to get the highest dollar amount or whatever you might assume it could be. And usually I try to take some time and encourage people to try to build a rapport so that you can try to figure out what the why is. And sometimes people don't articulate their whys, right? But you can try to get that out of them. The second thing that I think let people get wrong often is not knowing when to walk away, which is why my foundational five, the fifth thing that you have to know as a negotiator to be a good negotiator is when to close. Like I don't want to spend 10 days negotiating like a $50 change in a contract, right? You could have been working on something else or you don't want to concede too much or maybe you're negotiating with a person who doesn't have the authority. Like people asking my kids if they could do something. They can't make decisions. They're children. They can't tell you what's going to happen next. They have to talk to an adult, right? And so, and I say that as a joke, but I mean sometimes that really happens. And so I think knowing when to close is so key because you can know what you want, know what you need, know how to actually listen, know how to communicate, but not know when to walk away. And all of the other things that you've worked on could have been for not because you didn't know when to close. So I think those would be the two things that I think people sometimes get wrong or often to get a negotiation. And in the book, you don't have to give us all the juicy stuff in the book, but in the book, you must give some suggestions about how to know when to walk away. And there must be several different scenarios, I suppose. Yes. Yes. In the chapter, I have what's called negotiation in real life toolkit. You can kind of go to the back and kind of see the major takeaways. And in the section about knowing when to close, I do lists, like common reasons that people don't know when to close. And some of those reasons could be, you know, as you're asking yourself a few questions, right? Did you get everything you wanted? Did you get everything you needed? Did you can see too much? It's the more information needed. Did you learn something that changed how you view or evaluate the transaction? There are many ways that you might want to stick a pen in it or walk away or buy some more time depending on what's going on. It really depends on the situation, but that can help you in a lot of ways. And I will say this because this has come up for me recently, and I've seen it come up for a lot of people, especially during this time of the year, right, when things are starting to wrap up and you're getting in the fourth quarter. And I think what's important is something that my mom says, which is, you know, and she says the saying and I'm sure she didn't invent it, maybe it came from my grandmother, or it came from a lot of women who say a lot of great things, but that is God's protection. And I love about that. Sometimes you don't know why something didn't go through, right? And even for me, like I love mediating and I have a pretty high track record of helping resolve their matters, but I don't resolve every single matter, right? And if there's a situation where I don't, like I ask myself, I kind of think about it, like, oh, what could I have done differently? Or if I didn't get something that I really wanted, right? Why didn't I get that? Like, or if there's a rejection for whatever reason, but then you may learn later that there was a reason that that wasn't meant for you, that there was something else bigger that was in store, and sometimes that's, you know, the protection part. So I think it's important, too, to think about closing, as sometimes you don't know what's going to happen next. You don't know what's around the corner. You don't know why something isn't working, and that's okay, right? Just to tell you something, that's okay. Rejection is God's protection, or rejection is protection. You know, however you see it, and I just love that idea. And because it might be, you know, an opportunity is going to, it's making room for something new to come in. I know like there's a couple of times in my life where I wanted a certain position and got shortlisted and then didn't get it, and it was devastating. But then a few months later, something else came along that was a really big, you know, part of my life. So that's a really, that's good advice to have for people. What about the negotiation? We're going to get into some everyday things, and things we're going to face at the holidays. So I want to ask you about that. But let's just see, can you just tell us what you mean in your book by negotiation superpowers? A little bit about that. Yeah, so, you know, this kind of goes to a few things. One, people just, they don't think they're a negotiator, they don't think they're a good negotiator. What I wanted to do was demystify a little bit, like what makes someone a good negotiator, and taking the word negotiation out of the picture for a moment, what are your superpowers? What is something that you think that you do well? What is something that someone else thinks you do well? That's not always the same. Right? Someone might say, oh, you're really patient. You might be like, I'm not patient at all, right? Or someone might say, you're a really good, you know, public speaker, or you explain things very well, or you see the big picture, or you see the little picture, or whatever it is, or you might think, I'm a really good listener. I listen to people, or you might say, I'm an empath, right? I feel what people feel. So I think it's really important to identify what you think your superpowers are, and then create more opportunities for those superpowers to be on display. People who are excellent at cooking, they try to find opportunities to cook, or to bake. You know, I'm not a baker, you're not going to see me baking things for people, it's not my superpower. That thing said, there are things that I know I do very well, and I try to find more opportunities to be in that environment, to kind of showcase the things that I think I do well, or people have told me that I do well. Now, on the flip side of that gale, that I think is really important, that I don't think many people do, is think about how to expand your toolkit. So maybe you're like, I do, these three things really well, okay, that's great. And you know that, and maybe someone's told you, that's great. But what about the things that people have told you, you don't do well, or that you don't think you do well? And how can you find where those things could be seen as a superpower? So it's a different way to expand your toolkit, because maybe you've kind of put those things to the side. My grandfather said, tell me that I talk too much. Well, now I get paid to be a public speaker, to be a keynote speaker, right? So I put that to good use, right? And so that's the point is not just thinking about what you do well as a superpower, but also thinking about what you don't think you do well, what someone has told you you don't do well, and how can you reframe that to add it to the list of superpowers? So that when you're in negotiation for something, you can bring forth these things that you do really well. Is that why you list them? Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. And you know what they are. And you can go to with ease. Yes. Well, that makes me think of one thing, and part of the whole impetus of this program and that why it's called Love, Sweet Love, because of the song and focusing on good things. And I found out years ago when I was studying positive psychology that my number one strength, you know, there's 21 character strengths. And you know, I had my eye on a couple of strengths, like I saw a zest on the list. And I thought, yeah, I really, I'm so zesty. I know I'm going to get zesses when I talk strengths. And you know, there's, I don't know, prudence and judgment and communication and all these things. And I ended up getting love with my number one strength. And I was so disappointed. My God. It's like, God, what am I going to do with that skill, you know? And it, but you know, long story short, it made me over the years, think about my strengths and know that this is my one of my superpowers. And the second one was perspective. So it just made me focus on trying to use those more in my life and just admit that this warmth and love that I appreciate and have is something that is one of my gifts. And I just have to accept it and mourn that it's not zest and so when I'm in, you know, people know that about me. And so it's focusing on, for me, it would be focusing on building relationships in the team and, you know, making people feel people long and welcome. And so, yeah, I think that's really important. And a lot of people don't think about their, what their strengths are. So that's great. I hope people get your book. It'll be fantastic. Okay, so we're moving into this sometimes very stressful time of year. And sometimes we see, I think it's stress can be stressful in so many ways, right? Obviously grief even comes up, right? Like a warning someone who's not there. So there's that kind of stress. I think for the purpose of this podcast today, we're, well, I guess, you know, that comes into it too. But, you know, we've got all these people, all these different opinions and one thing that comes up for me when I think about these big gatherings is someone who triggers you. You know, you're going to be coming into contact with someone, you know, that maybe you don't see that often. It's not you wouldn't choose necessarily to like hang out with them, but you know, they're going to be there. You want to be polite. Maybe you're hosting. Is there something we can do to prepare to be around someone who's going to, we know is going to trigger us? Absolutely. And let me just say people who know you best know exactly how to push your buttons, right? They know exactly how to do it. I think that there are many ways to sort of approach the season with intention. And one powerful way to do that is by using this acronym that I call cheer. And I love an acronym because it makes it easy to remember, especially when you have a lot going on, even if you're hosting, because it's just a simple roadmap to help you stay calm, kind and connected, no matter what the dinner table throws at your way. And so for the C, the C is choose connection over being right, choose connection over being right. And that sounds easier said than done right, right, go, but when you hit it, topic comes up, whether it's politics, parenting or who makes the best, you know, apple pie, just pause before reacting. So ask yourself, is this helping me connect or compete? And many, there are many things you can ask yourself, but I like that one because it's very clear, right? It's a very clear way to just kind of quickly test yourself. And if it's the latter, if it's to compete, take a breath and choose connection. One of my close friends, she's so wonderful, she says, what I like about you, Demelli, is that you choose joy. Like I see it. When I see you every day, like you wake up and you choose joy, and for you go, I'm hearing that you choose love. Like that's just nothing doesn't hear it in your DNA, that's your makeup. And so, but other people can choose connection, right? You can say, you know what? You see that differently and that's okay, I'm just glad we're here together. So you're not conceding, you're preserving the piece and that's why I start off with that sea of choosing connection over being right. The age is to have a soft start. And I say soft start because the way you open a conversation can set the tone for how it ends, right? And you know, right? And we know this to be true. And so instead of diving into sensitive territory, start with curiosity and care. So trying, how have you been holding up this year or what's been the highlight of your week, right? So just like a gentle start that invines warmth instead of defensiveness and you know, that gives a person the opportunity to decide to what they want to share with you, right? And I think that's great because you kind of give agency back to someone and maybe in the past that hasn't been your way. So maybe they're already kind of tense or gearing up for, you know, thank you might say. But you're going to show them the new you, you're going to show them that you are going to have a soft start. And if you sense tension, you know, kind of lower your voice, not your standards. And then please, please people read the cues, right? So someone is showing you a discomfort about a particular topic. I think it's really important to take that cue and change the topic. I think it's so important. Sometimes people kind of keep going when there is enough, either micro expressions or energy or just indicators that maybe that's not the road you should travel down today. You're not going to robber frosted, right? So that might not be the road that's travel, you got to think about. So I think it's important. And of course, in cheer, I have three more letters, but I wanted to pause to kind of see if I can keep going or I'd like to keep going actually. That's great. So for the first E and cheer, this is one of my favorite ones, empathize, don't evangelize. So when someone shares a strong opinion, resist the urge to persuade or prove a point. Because empathy doesn't mean agreement, it means acknowledgement. And I think that's something that gets lost a lot. People often think that you have to agree if you empathize because you understand, right? You get understand where someone's coming from. But what if you don't? What if you can't relate to the experience? What if it never happened to you or you just, I don't know, you're not the CEO, you're not the chief empathy officer, right, maybe, maybe, maybe no. So if you think about empathy as meaning acknowledgement and not agreement, then for people who are not naturally empathetic, you can be empathetic in the moment. So for example, if someone says, I can't believe you still live in the city, try responding with, you know, definitely has his challenges, but I love the energy or I love people watching or I love the food or I love 24 hour convenience, right? So basically you're still modeling grace under pressure while keeping the door open for understanding. And so empathy is important. So empathize, don't evangelize. The next E. So Molly, can I ask you just to create something fun, what if somebody says something that you, like instead of you being the one talking, what if someone says something to you that you don't, you know, agree with or like, how can you show empathy? Would you just reflect back their feeling like, oh, I can see you feel really strongly about that or what kind of, do you have a couple of examples about that? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So it depends on what's being said and it depends on who you want to be in that moment, right? But sometimes, and you're talking about holiday gatherings or gathering with people that, you know, maybe I think you would use it was said, maybe you wouldn't choose to spend time with this person, but you're in the same space or maybe, you know, you're often in the same space with this person and now you like find yourself getting punched at the same time and you're filling your cup and you have like 30 seconds or a couple minutes to have an interaction. So if someone says something to you that loves you the wrong way and the moment I'm going to talk about five topics to avoid because often times, you know, we can kind of sidestep some conflict. I think there are a few things that you have to consider. One, going back to, how do you, one, going back to, you choose to connect or compete, right? I can't tell you, there are so many situations where I'm in conversations with someone and it may seem like, oh, maybe they're all resharing or they're giving an unpopular opinion or the recent political, you know, race results or whatever the case may be. And in that moment, while you can't control what the person is saying to you, you can control what you say next. So there are a lot of neutral things you can say, right? You know, oh, that sounds interesting or you can keep them talking. Tell me more about that, right? Sometimes people love to talk. Maybe they just meant the last 10 days reading, you know, articles and they have this like topic that they're going to talk to everybody about because now they feel like really a bit about it. Well, there are many ways that you can keep someone talking or just say, oh, wow, I didn't know about that. That sounds interesting. Hmm, you know, or one of my favorites is just, you know, like asking anything, you know, so there are many ways to keep the piece. The point is, it depends on what you want. Now, sometimes it's your arch nemesis, right? Sometimes the person who pokes your buttons and you've been ready. You know what they're going to come and talk to you about. Maybe they're going to brag on everything their kid just did, right? Maybe they're going to talk about their new job. Who knows what it's going to be. So it just depends again how you want to show up in that moment. My goal for cheer is how to keep the piece. So the tips that I'm providing in this acronym are focused on keeping the piece. Now, I would, I could definitely have a different acronym for, for not keeping the piece. I might want to hear that one too. I want to keep that one handy too. Okay. So what's the second E? I interrupted you there. No worries. The second E is the exit gracefully, which goes back to knowing when to close, right? And so sometimes the best way to protect your piece is to politely step away. So you can change the topic, you can redirect the conversation, or you can physically remove yourself for breather. And you know, there are many ways to do this. I talk about this in my book about protecting your piece and how important it is. You know, there are other authors that have written about different ways to do this. You know, Fisher and Yuri talk about going to the balcony to get some space and to think, you know, there are many ways to do it. I think there, you could do a lot of things. Oh, excuse me. I promise to help refill the drinks or I'm going to go check on the kids or I have to excuse myself to run to the ladies room. Like all of those work perfectly and doesn't put you in an awkward position and it gives you an opportunity to exit gracefully and exiting gracefully keeps things light without escalating tension. Now, we've all been in those situations with a person waiting to come out of the bathroom. You know, right? Right. Right. And so, you know, you can try your best to figure out ways to avoid going back to a conversation that you didn't want to be in, but something that's key is once you do exit, that might give you a chance to think of what to say or do next, right? I can't give people a framework for every scenario, every possible scenario because this is more of an art than a science, but what they can do is give you a chance to sort of, you know, use neuroscience, let your executive function kind of take control instead of be fight flight or freeze, right? Because it's kind of flight, right? You're trying to get out of there. And then you could think about how to react. Maybe that's when you get your, your buddy, like whoever your person, your friend is and now you're not born in that conversation or the different things to do. Yeah. Now that's great. And do you want to tell us what the R is? Yeah. The R is to redirect and so the quickest way to stop a spiral is to pivot towards neutral shared ground. So when things get uncomfortable, redirect with like a lighthearted question or shared memory. And so, you know, those have a great way of defusing tension go. There's that talk about politics, tell me about your last vacation or you can remember the time, the turkey caught fire. And you see how you laugh, laughter, reset for a lot of these, like family or kind of social dynamics, right? So laughter helps laughing at yourself, laughing at some shared memory or anything. Oh, I don't remember. Oh, you got to hear the story, right? You know, you go into that. And so, I alluded to earlier kind of a quick cheat sheet for what not to discuss. And those are the five P's. And I think people know a lot of the P's, you know, politics, paychecks, parenting, partners, personal parents, right? That one, I think it doesn't always make the list. But those are conversation landmines and they tend to explode when they're gatherings. And so, I want people to think about shifting the focus, you know, to gratitude, travel, food, music or funny stories, anything that builds connection instead of comparison. That's great advice. Love that. Gratitude, food, travel, what was the other thing you said? Music or funny stories. And oftentimes, like something you could be, go as far back in time as you want, but within the past year, especially if you gather annually or it's kind of within the last year, these are some things. Yeah. Yeah. Actually, reminds me of, this is the ultimate time where we were shifting, trying to shift gears a little was when my mom passed away about two years ago and we were all around her in her care room and we knew it was going to be soon and sounds maybe strange to some people that we were laughing, but we had spent many days with her, she was going to happen. We were all there and we were sharing really funny stories about her. And she was laughing and it just made the whole thing this beautiful time together. I think she loved it because it was like, you know, I remember my thinking was, how can we let her know that we haven't forgotten all of these things, you know, sorry. Sorry. I know what a beautiful story and I love that and I'm sorry I really worked on it. What about some preemptive things? I mean, knowing those things to avoid, that's something we can do, you know, things that we can try to do to keep the tone positive. I guess you've already talked about a lot of those, but even in, like if we're hosting, you know, I'm really big into gathering and the art of hosting and things like that. So is there anything as a host that you can think of, like music or, you know, are the things like that that we can focus on that will help us move into the right kind of situation and tone that we want? Absolutely. So if you're hosting, I think boundaries are your best friend and so you can share your expectations up front. So some things that are important, like starting in times or if you have certain practices at your home, like shoes stay at the door, sometimes people can start off on the wrong foot. Like they could be good and then they're like, I have to take my shoes off. So everything they prepared, whatever they were going to bring, they have their presents, they plan the outfit and the outfit includes wearing the shoes and then from that moment on, they're like, oh, I didn't wear matching socks or I have a minute, you know, and that's the thing. But it's true. Something that's all can change the energy, you know, going forward. And so I think oftentimes conflict starts from something small, you know, people, I mean, it doesn't usually like, you know, become this avalanche or become avalanche, but it's often something that's very small and that could be misperceived by the other side because maybe they have a lot going on and seeing whatever energy is being projected or shown as something to do with something else, but it could be something as small as I wish I had known I was going to take my shoes off as a door, I would put lotion on, I would have matching socks. And so I have my toenails. Yeah. I didn't get the manicure. I didn't have time and now everyone's going to see, you know, or I didn't know there was a scene and I'm out wearing the right color and why don't you tell me or you know I don't check my email and you send me a tag like small things that can have a big impact. And so I would say it's really important to share the expectations of the front, you know, start and time, even if you can, you know, some people say, oh, I have something else to do before I might be late, tell people when you plan to provide certain aspects of the meal. So this is cocktails and hors d'oeuvres and the first hour tell people because maybe they're going to get there or they have to go somewhere else and they can plan based on the information. So as a host and I host a lot, I think it's really important to give people kind of some information so that they can make decisions. So you don't have to respond to, oh, it's too late to come as your hosting, right, or you know, or I have to go, oh, I already know. And then creating an atmosphere where everyone feels included and no one feels sort of cornered. And I think it's important to set the tone by saying, you know, this year the theme is laughter and light, no debates, just dessert, right? And so that way if someone brings up something in a conversation, so two people are talking off to the side and someone's like, you know, brings up something that's a debate topic. First thing, and actually then point to the host, you know, not like literally, but to say, you know, the Molly said, we just want to, you know, keep things light and no debates and that sounds like a debate. So, you know, it's not do that. So it gives you something else to point to. I also think that this is something that I've always felt, maybe because I'm the oldest and I come from a very big family is that everyone who's meant to be there will be there. And sometimes I feel like people are disappointed, and I'm not talking about those who we've loved and lost. I'm talking about people who send their regrets, like they can't make it. And people might be like, oh, you know, like focusing on that, and remember rejection because sometimes be gots protection, and also sometimes it's just whoever's supposed to be there will be there was meant to be will happen. And sometimes it's just sort of focusing on controlling what you can control and letting go what you can't. And I think that that is a mindset, you know, I think that's something that's a mindset. I didn't come here to preach, but I feel like I'm preaching today. It's kind of a mindset. And if you're hosting, I feel like, you know, the last thing I'll say about this is at the end of the day, keeping the cheer and ditching drama isn't about perfection, because I know like when I'm hosting two and probably you like gathering, is you thinking about like all the things? And did I check the soap and the bathroom and make sure there's the right quantity that I changed it is the food could perfectly. And so when you're choosing empathy over ego, when you're choosing laughter over lectures, when you're choosing kindness over control, what happens is you transform the gathering from stressful to more soulful, right? And what I like about that is that those are things you can control. You can try to control. And look, if people don't, you know, behave and don't bite them next year. Oh, that's such good advice, those are, I love those. Can you say those six things over, again, you said empathy over ego, laughter over lectures, kindness over control. The illiteration, I was an English major at Spellman's Love Literation, that's how you remember. That's how I remember really. Yeah, that's great. I love it. Love a good illiteration. Absolutely. Okay, so I think we will move on to the quote. So anything else you want to say about gathering or before we on the holidays that I didn't ask you about so far? No, I love the question. And I think if you remember cheer, that will give them a good, love that. Okay. All right. Here's the quote that I picked for you. And it is from Peter Senge. And it says, "To listen fully means to pay close attention to what is being said beneath the words. You listen not only to the music, but to the essence of the person speaking. You listen not only for what someone knows, but for what he or she is. Here's "operate at the speed of sound," which is far slower than the speed of light the eyes take in. Generative listening is the art of developing deeper sinlances in yourself. So you can slow our minds hearing to your ears' natural speed and hear beneath the words to their meaning. So I'd love you to comment on that in any way you wish to Molly. I love that quote and it's so rich with so many things from thinking about silence, so the space between the sounds, between the talking, thinking about how ears work and how listening can really, if you listen closely, could really help you figure out what to do. As someone who's a conflict reservoir, someone who focuses on conflict resolution, management and prevention, to me, my main takeaway from that quote and how I've kind of processed it in my conflict resolution brain is if we all focus more on fostering love and connection, we live in a world where curiosity replaces judgment. And I think that's so important because I think that oftentimes judgment becomes sort of like the, and I snap my fingers because we know about snap judgments and it happens so quickly. And if we were curious instead of juggie, and I know juggie isn't like the word that I should use, but if we're curious, then we'd pause before we'd react it and we'd ask what happened instead of who's to blame. And I don't think conflict would disappear, Gale, but it would look different because it will become an opportunity to connect, to grow and to understand rather than to win or lose. And I think that because I'm, you know, practice law, I'm a mediator, I'm an arbitrator, I'm a mother, I'm a wife, I'm a big sister, you know, I'm a friend, I'm in many organizations. And I feel like sometimes things feel very adversarial, meaning someone has to win or lose. Someone has to be right or wrong. This whole nuance of gray doesn't seem to exist and people can be really stuck. And so to me in that kind of a world where people are more curious than juggie based on this wonderful quote, I think, you know, workplaces could be more inclusive, relationships could be more resilient, and communities could be more peaceful because not all people agree all the time, but they can listen all the time, right? And that's what I love about that quote. Yeah, and curiosity is a big one. And I think you really just answered the next question, the last two questions I always give people is if we focused on more on our fostering love and connection, like we have today through listening and empathy, what do you think we'd see more of? And I think you kind of just answered that. Yeah, curiosity, more curiosity, less judgment, more listening, less fighting, more recognizing nuances, and also context. Context is so important. I think sometimes people rush to judgment because they're missing some context. I think sometimes people don't always say what they mean and people don't always mean what they say. And I think if people focus on connecting and not, you know, judging or what I call triangulating, so if set of understanding a misinterpretation or miscommunication from the person directly who's involved, but then triangulating, going to talk about it with someone else, like that's not the best way to be curious, right? And so I, that's probably what I would say, yeah, that's great. And there's one more question that I ask everybody, but just before that and before we end, I just want to say thank you for this work that you do. And for sharing all of this knowledge that really it's, it's kind of simple in a way, but it's not something that people, I think we feel rushed and pressured and, you know, time is always pushing at us and all these distractions. So so much of what I've heard from you today is stopping and responding rather than reacting and listening for understanding and I think understand how we write about and talk about how understanding builds empathy. And there's one quote you, maybe you've heard this before, you, I think you'd like this, but I think it was Dr. Michelle Borba said empathy makes cruelty and violence unthinkable. And I think that's true. And you know, it's really simplifying things, but you know, just think, just imagine if we all had empathy like that, we wouldn't even think about being violent and cruel to each other. So I just love all of this and that acronym cheer, we will take away with us for sure. So just to end Demali, what are one or two thoughts you hope people listening take away from this conversation today? Well, I hope first that listeners take away that negotiation isn't just something you do in a boardroom, it's something that you do every day with your colleagues, with your family and even yourself. So that's number one. And number two, that you listener, you are your greatest asset. So when you bring your authentic self to the table, your story, your voice, your values, you don't just get what you want, you help others to do the same. Thank you. Well, thank you so much for talking with me today, Demali. It was my pleasure, girl. I want to do this same time tomorrow. Okay. I love it. I'd love it. Thanks for listening, getting the message out about the foundational place that our relationships and connectedness should have in our lives is so important. I hope you share this with someone that you care about. As humans, we need each other to thrive. We always have and we always will. Before you go, I'd love it if you would take a few seconds to rate and review the podcast. It really helps to get the message heard by more people. It's a really big thank you to my editor, Haley Oktober, for her excellent work. And lastly, to the great Bert Bakerak and Hal David for their words and music. So beautiful and so true. [BLANK_AUDIO]