Ep. 42 - It Is Right to Give Him Thanks and Praise

[Music] You're listening to the "Average Episcopalian Podcast" where two average of hiscable sisters unpack the idea that God is a landlord that we can never pay back. I'm Annie. And I'm Kate. And this is episode number 42. It is right to give him thanks and praise. In today's episode, we ask some big questions about the practice of worship. Like, "What is it? Why do we worship? How do we worship? Do I have to have an out-of-body experience for the worship to quote-unquote "counts?" But most of all, how do we "apiscopalians" worship and what makes it particularly "apiscopalian"? [Music] I think we need to discuss something about your usual church service that you don't notice is like a critical operational point until something goes wrong. And then you cannot think about anything else. And that is microphones and church. [Music] I have a bone to pick. I need to get some things off my chest and I hope you'll join in with me. Oh, this is a key. First, when you started doing these things, you're like, "I have a topic to talk about first before we get into the real topic." And then you're like, "Oh, my gosh, this is kind of hokey." But then every time you bring one up, I'm like, "Yeah, this doesn't need to be talked about." It's like the town hall in Parks and Recreum, like, "Yes, we need to discuss this. We need to discuss this." People just bringing up random points of discussion. Yeah, no. You know, something sometimes need to be said. And I specifically want to discuss them with you, though, and then see what listeners also have to say about them. Yes, keep asking. I actually overheard one of my Bible studies recently. One girl explaining your heated puke cushion situation to another girl. I heard this from the other room. No way. Wow. It was awesome. I was like, "Yeah!" The heating system heard around the world. I'm glad. Okay. Well, okay. So, for my own sanity, I have organized four tiers of church sound systems. And I need to see if people agree with us or not. There are four tiers. Like a pyramid diagram speaking of Parks and Rec, like Ron's pyramid of greatness or whatever it's called. Yeah, yeah. The swans and pyramid of greatness. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, but this is like a tier. So it'd be more like a chart set up, I think. Okay. But also, it's not like I'm ranking them. I don't have a preference. They're just different. Okay. Here's the four tiers. Ready? So, first tier is small church, no microphone needed. I've never been to one, but they're out there. They exist. Second tier would be like a larger church, but only with standing microphones. So like anybody who has to speak has to walk over to a standing mic, like whether at a pulp it's or like next to a music stand or something like that. Third tier would be a larger church and they do use like clip-on microphones with microphone packs that people like wear in their pockets and to their robes or something. So like priests have to control their own mic pack. Yeah. They have to turn it on when it's time for them to speak and they have to turn it off when they're when they're not speaking or when we have to pray altogether. Yeah. So their voice doesn't like booming over all of us, you know. And then the fourth tier would be enormous church with a tech team, which everybody still got like microphone packs and stuff. But you've got a sound guy who can like mute the microphone when you don't have to speak anyway. So like you don't have to think about it. What a luxury. You know, it's actually so unfair now that I'm thinking about it. Not to disparage other churches, but the churches that do have the funding for a giant tech team are typically mega churches where the structure of the service is to have a bunch of worship music first and then the sermon. Honestly, simplest job ever for a tech team. Just get to do the music settings for part one and then keep the person's microphone on at the front and part two. Like, whereas the physical church, it's like, oh, you're speaking and then we're saying a shared prayer. And then we have to sing a little holy holy holy. And then it's like, do you want to hear the priest voice during the holy holy holy? Okay. Now for the choir. Like that, that's we deserve the bigger tech teams. I'm sorry. But if it's so complicated for just like a random sound tech that you hire to bring them in, you'd have to like give them the script beforehand so they can follow along. Yeah. But anyways, those are those are my four tiers of church sound system. And my church is in tier two, which is like, we have a larger church. And there's carpets everywhere. So the sound just gets sucked in by the carpets. Yeah. But like anybody who has to speak goes to a standing mic. And then when you're at the altar, you just got a yell. Oh, really? So, so that includes the priest. The priest don't have their own microphone. I think we've got one might pack, but today at least this is because I was thinking about this today during the service. Yeah, we you just got to use your whole chest when celebrating the holy Eucharist. I feel like the Mike Pax is I can't imagine next time we have a pre-sum we got to ask them, how much does that take you out of the service? Because now, not only do you have like you have to speak, you have to either remember the words or recite words or whatever. So you have to worry about the speaking that you're doing. You have to worry about what to do with your body where you turn when you kneel, when you walk over here, when you walk over there. And you have to do microphone choreography, like to turn your mic back on and off. And usually like you have to reach into your robes to like dig into your pocket. Yes. You can attach a mic pack to your robe. It's going to go flying off. Yeah. Yeah. My packs and robes were not meant to me. No, unless your robe has a secret pocket, which I don't know how many do, but I think the churches that do have my packs, a lot of them have a secret pocket. I know for a fact there's been incidents in my history and your history where the pre-sie there forgot to turn the mic back on or forgot to turn the mic back off. And it's like all you can think about if they don't turn their mic on, you're just like hoping that nobody is like making any noise that you can hear what's going on. Yeah. Yeah. It's unfortunate, but it's like the same with theater or any other like large events, just like sound is so critical to the whole experience. And so shout out to sound techs out there, but also it's also the priests who just also like that's just another one more than the service. Yeah. In addition to literally everything else. Yeah. So and all this to say, if you are also like reading a lesson, like you have to lean into the microphone a little bit. Obviously, like don't get a kiss. But like you can't just like read and then hope that the microphone, like the standing microphone will pick you up. Yeah. Yeah. So. Oh my gosh. Our readers have a standing microphone in the contemporary service. And the way you adjust it is there's like this thing that you grasp on the stand part that you can move it up or down to make it, you know, the whole entire stand, like the stick part of the stand becomes either shorter or taller. And so readers are trained use that specific lever because it's like a lever you pull and it's really easy to slide it to be up or down. But every time there's a reader who just grabs the actual microphone and tries to bend it towards their face. No. And it's like, guys, there's a lever. There's a really easy lever. And it always makes me laugh. We had it today. One of our shortest readers and one of our tallest readers. And it's always so funny to watch them have to shift that thing all the way up and all the way down. That's so my gosh, especially if they're back to back. Oh, wow. Yeah. Well, I don't blame any readers. I wish to clarify. Yes. Yeah. Somebody should absolutely be teaching readers. And I think we should prioritize. I blame readers who have been taught and don't do it properly. I'm sorry. I am probably blaming the readers. And honestly, that's your right. But yeah, I can say that because I am a reader, by the way. Okay. I've been trained. I know that the readers are trained. So true. Yes. And you're like, okay, if I can do this. So can you, you and I are not people of great height abilities. Yeah. It's very critical that we'd be able to move the microphone where we need it. So yes, in some training the readers about how to properly use the microphone. And if the reader has been trained, then there's nothing more we can do for them. And God's hands. And in some, if you're priest accidentally doesn't turn their mic pack on and accidentally turns there doesn't turn their mic pack off. Just have mercy on them. Give them grace. You know, they're doing a lot. Priests have to do a lot. Like imagine having a respond to all the emails that you respond to as a corporate person, but also care for people and be pastoral and run a service and suddenly become a sound technician like have some grace. Yes. Yes. I'm sending much love to everyone in tier three. You know, yeah, all the tears. I'm sure all the tears have their challenges. Exactly. Yeah. Oh man. It makes me kind of just sentimental for the imperfections that come with church. And I kind of love that church isn't like a perfect production every time. Yeah. No, I love that too. You know, kids starts crying. It's part of the service. All are welcome. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know why that was the sole example. example of what I could think about. Kids start to cry. No, that is a good one. Yeah, but I mean, it's probably one of the more common ones. Mm-hmm. Yeah. But I think that kind of leads us into our topic for today, because speaking of very, very relevant things in the church service, I mean, Annie and I wanted to cover worship today, which is-- yeah, it's been something that we've been considering for a little while, but also, like, it now seems particularly timely to discuss worship in general. But I mean, I've got a lot of questions. Yeah, and that's what really drove us doing this topic with some of your questions and the big questions you have, which we'll get to. But I guess do you mind sharing like why this has been on your mind of the questions that you have surrounding worship? Yeah, I mean, just after every service coming home and thinking, can people move closer to the microphone? And when I really like a piscopal worship, but I know that there's so many other types of worship out there, and just that I've seen in, like, media recently, or that I've been, like, have come up on my playlists and stuff. I think about, like, how diverse worship is, not only within Christianity. I mean, obviously, like, within the whole world and such, but, like, especially within Christianity, just, like, how differently Christians worship. And it's been something I've been meditating on a lot recently. So obviously, I reached out to Annie and I was like, look, I know we've covered a million adjacent topics, but I feel like it's a good time to discuss worship right now. Yeah. Honestly, at this point, every topic that we cover will be adjacent to one another. So we can probably-- And that is OK. Yeah, there's no more disclaimers that can be given. If you're here, you're here. Welcome. OK, so I think where we can start is maybe just talking about some of our confusion, or perhaps even skepticism or misconception about worship as a concept. And like, when we got instinct to think of worship, what is it that that means to us? Well, I was just sitting there wondering, like, what is worship? Cari Bradshaw. And just like that. Yeah. Why do we worship? Yeah. I like what is the way that Episcopalians worship? Like, what does it say about us? But I don't know. I feel like I have a lot of skepticism about worship not so much in general, but like ways of performing worship. Well, I think if you asked an average question on the street, what is worship? For many people, their concept. And honestly, for myself included, sometimes I group it in this way, is that worship is that first part of the service where, if you talk about the sound system, guys, worship is the first part where they have the band setting. And worship is putting your hands in the air like you just don't care. And you got to really feel it during your fave worship song. And there's a category on Spotify called worship music. And no, no, no, 1982 songs are on that Spotify playlist. So I feel like there's a specific modern Christian understanding for worship that's just tied to that specific experience. Yeah. You're right. Like, the service is split up into worship and then the message or something like that. Yes, the worship and the message. Yes, exactly. Or churches have worship nights that are just like singing and music. Yeah, so I think music is something that people immediately think of when they think about worship. I think one of my biggest skepticism that I've had about worship throughout the years, and as I found my way back to the Episcopal church and away from that non-denominable space, was like concerns about what I will loosely call performative worship. I don't know. Sometimes I don't like using the term performative because it feels a little accusatory. You are guessing somebody's motivation for something. Yeah, you're guessing someone's intentions. And that takes up so much brain space. But church settings, certain church settings, it becomes very difficult to differentiate worship from performance because what some people are doing is worship looks like a concert I would go to or something to see a performance. So it can be easily confused. But yeah, I don't know. Like specifically, of course, referring to music, but other areas can be applied to. And I'm not just picking on non-denominational churches of rock and roll here. I actually have a personal story about this, which is that literally this morning in choir, we were singing a very difficult anthem. And I was like singing it through my head. I was like hyping it up. Like I was about to perform this piece for an audience. And like I thought for a moment, I'm thinking of this as a performance. When is it not worship? And like when is it a performance for me? Because like obviously I want to sing the anthem well. But I just felt like I was very distinctly treating it. Like it was a performance. Or like I was going to get a grade at the end or something like that. And like-- It's like what Mario talked about on his episode where he said we don't have that a program at the door when you're in the choir. Like we don't hand out a program. Yeah. This is an experience of worship and not performance. Yes. I also thought about Mario's words about like leading the people's song. And that is the majority of what we're doing. Like with hymns and solms and such. But like the anthem is a moment for the choir. It's like you rehearse for it. And so I just want to say like this isn't just a thing that applies to like the Church of Rock and Roll. This is I feel like yeah. In Piscopal churches it could be very-- the lines could be very easily blurred too. And I just want to say I've experienced that. And so that's when I get a little skeptical about just like the worship experience. Yeah. And what's the why? What's the point? OK, we're singing. Let's say key form of worship, which we'll talk about some different forms. But then like what's the purpose? Why is it that we can tend towards performance? And I would say same thing being in the pews. I'm not in the choir. But I'm singing my heart out to the hymns. And I have to pull myself back and be like OK, I'm not performing for the person that's too pews in front of me. Yeah. I'm just singing along. And so yeah. I want to make a joyful noise. But I want the noise to sound good too. I want to make such a joyful noise that the person in front of me realizes that I used to be in church choir. So true. So how is it that we get there? I guess like to back up, it just brings you to the broader question of why is it that we're doing this? What's the point? Why are we worshiping? Why are we singing? Yes. Well, I always thought that worship had to happen because like a, otherwise God would get mad at us. We're not worshiping enough. He needs more. You know? Like, yeah, like God's sitting up there, feeding off of it. I don't know how else to say it. This is a specific reference that you probably don't know, but fantastic for first steps. How Galactus eats planets in order to survive. It's like the more planets we give, the more worship we give. God will. No. I think that's a pretty good analogy. Actually, yeah, like a beast who needs a certain food to like stay alive. And that's what worship is. It's so uncorrect. It's so uncorrect. It's so characteristic of God, but sure. Yeah, no, but like as a kid too. And also maybe as like a person in their late 20s, if I'm being honest, you sometimes wonder like when it comes to worship. Are we doing this? Because like God needs it. Because it's required. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Or like another thing is like are we doing it because we need to have some sort of immense out of body experience in order to feel close to God? Like. Yeah. Yeah, as like a means to an end, like a worshiping and singing something that touches me emotionally so that I can feel the spirit or like as a, yeah. Huh. That's interesting. Yeah, yeah. Exactly. Well, I think that this is where we can start to correct ourselves, right? Because if we see worship as something that is just required and something that we have to do, then that's not really a good place to be. So let's transition, I guess, into the true why. Because we did a lot of deep diving and you know what's coming. You know the definitions are coming. But we basically have found a bunch of different explanations and definitions of worship. And as we've done this research, we've split them up into different categories of the why. So what are the reasons, what are the why's for why we worship? And those categories are payment, response, Adoration Sacrifice. and union and we will get into all of those five right now. Yeah, these categories are kind of based off of like what the Episcopal Church Glossary says about why we worship and Annie and I just kind of divided them into categories that were directly stated or like made sense for us. Okay, so the first one that we discovered through our journey with the definitions is worship as payment, which is kind of something that's off putting already to have that be the term. This one really feeds into all the little Kate fears. Yeah, yeah, but it comes from the Episcopal Church Glossary website. So, and the Episcopal Church Glossary says that like the term the word worship comes from the Anglo-Saxon which literally means to pay someone what is there do. And today that refers to paying of divine honor to God. So that's where we got the term payment. Okay, we didn't just make it up. No, and then in the Glossary, like the word pay appeared a whole bunch and I got real scared. Yeah, I got scared. Yeah, but you know, if you just keep going with it, it'll get better. I promise. So guess what? I did actually in this episode there's going to be a lot of the definition inside of the definition moments. So just prepare just buckle up everyone. So if you look up the word pay, there's a one definition of the word pay that was on the Internet somewhere that said to hand over or transfer the amount do. So a debt wages. So the amount due to someone. And the word debt then just got my wheels turning about our relationship with God. I think the word debt is used in the context of like Jesus paid our debt when he died on the cross. Like we were indebted to God and then it was paid. But also I feel like, yeah, I am indebted to God for them that now I owe now I owe him. I hate talking about that. It's like I need to do a Venmo transaction to God. So it's going to say it's like God is the landlord and we have to pay rent. That's why I think if we start using like the pay term too much, I don't know, it can get it's probably confusing. Yeah, it's probably not my favorite of the five categories as far as like a helpful way to frame it. But I do think it is important because we don't love to be taken down a notch. It is important to remember that we are indebted to God and that like ultimately we owe him our lives and our freedom and our salvation. Like all of that is because of God. Yes, I was thinking about the gifts of creation recently because we did have the creation story not too long ago. And church and I was like, oh wow, so wonderful. So yeah, we, yeah, I feel like we maybe, oh God for creating all things bright and beautiful and all creatures great and small. Yeah, just one that's been on my heart recently. But like so is worship then like a way to pay God back for like what Jesus did for us and like yeah, I think it's been more helpful for me to kind of conceptualize it like okay so I go out to dinner with a friend and like that or she picks up the tab for a drink or something like that that we have at the bar before hands. I know that nine year old is probably not super consequential but like I'm just a person who doesn't like to have that's that's to people and like anyway and so I feel like Christians shouldn't want to like have that debt like we should want to do things in order to thank God for what he's done for us. You know what I mean maybe a better perfect analogy. Yeah, maybe a better going out to dinner analogy would be every time that my in laws take us on a vacation. They are extremely generous. They pay for every meal, every aspect like we pay for the flights to get there and they are extremely generous in the way they cover vacation. And so every time we get together with Ben's brother and we sneakily pay the bill for one of the dinners and it has to be a covert operation like because if we are not sneaky about it, it will get shut down immediately like they will not let us pay. And so we have to be so sneaky we have to work together and like distract our in law. Yeah, to go pay and that's kind of maybe that's a better comparison of like that's just an acknowledgement of they have given us so much they've given us this entire week. And so for us paying for dinner it honestly feels silly even to do it because it's such a small portion of the experience that we're all sharing but it's just a small payment like a small way to pay for something. Yeah, it's like okay, here's the least I can do but like it's a way of yeah. Yeah. And you honestly won't even let me pay it if I tell you that I'm paying it but like I want to pay because I recognize the value in what it is that you know we've been given. Yes, you have to want to pay. Well, maybe this next one Kate worship as response will help reframe a little bit more because worship as payment like we said feels quite transactional on the surface. And so there's another portion of the episcopal glossary definition that says that includes a definition from Evelyn Underhill who we talked about in our what's that episode called note where the Episcopalians or something. Yes, she's famous for her works on Christian mysticism. Yes, and her quote is included and she wrote that worship is the response of the creature to the eternal. I love how simple that is and yet it's very powerful to me so I'm like, oh, I'm a creature. Like I have a limited lifespan. I'm a being with like who is characterized by mortality. So like that's us and we worship when we are faced with something so big it like passes all of our understanding. Yes, you know, I love it worship as a response is probably the most helpful framework for me because yeah, we're responding to everything that it is that God's done. And also to who the character of God is the response of the creature to the eternal so simple but so rich. Another place that the term response came up was when we were looking at our favorite book our confirmation book your faith, your life. I keep pulling that thing off the shelf and my high school cringe or my college cringe annotations are in there but you know. And in the worship section it says worship is a response of praise and thanksgiving to the God who created us a God who knows us. Bless us each day and wants to fulfill our hearts desires we respond by giving our love and offering thanks. And yeah, I just feel like to make that more specific instead of just the response of the creature to the eternal what form does that take and that takes the form of praise and of thanksgiving. So like honoring who it is that God is and then being grateful for things which we've talked about gratitude a lot before but I think that showing gratitude as a form of worship and then praise as a form of worship is really helpful to me. Yeah, so worship like inherently keeps us focused on like the nature of God it's reminding us of who God is and we're responding yes that's mm-hmm yeah. I also love this popped into my brain of the part of the service the I think it's you grist one of the eucharistic prayers I don't know air be. And it's right before we sing the holy holy holy and it's it is right and a good and joyful thing always and everywhere to give thanks to you father almighty creator of heaven and earth therefore we praise you joining our voices with angels and archangels and with all the company of heaven who forever sing this hymn to proclaim the glory of your name. I'm so glad you plucked that out I forgot how happy it makes me yeah and I mean we hear it every week so our ears can glaze over it but I don't know if yours glazed things but you know we can go in one ear now the other I was crazy about the eyes I am always like I can yours can glaze over yeah what does just talk about being reminded of the goodness of God and I love the idea of who forever sing this hymn to proclaim the glory of your name that like kind of like the river we talked about a couple of episodes where you're dropping into that constant river of prayer that there's this forever hymn that the angels are singing to God to like proclaim the glory of his name and so us acting and worship is us just joining into that song that's forever being sung. Yes and it's right and good and joyful and like this part of the literally just like really makes you want to start singing so it's a great lead and they've got the motivation part down there great but like yeah I don't know it like worship as response kind of war and so that at some point like we want to respond you know we arrive at a place where we are just like very overwhelmed with or I don't know you don't have to be overwhelmed that's kind of like an extreme emotion but like you arrive at a place where you're like I really want to respond because I'm thinking about the goodness of God or I'm really thankful and grateful or something like that you know like nobody can force you to respond you have to arrive at the place where you're ready to respond and it's something you want to do I would also argue though that the knowledge of God is enough to warrant response and not emotional emotional desire to respond if that makes sense. So like even if you're not particularly feeling it, that worship is still important to actually help remind you of God's character and remind you of His goodness. Yes. Very true. And it can feel quite stark sometimes, tough to walk into a sanctuary and try to have joyful worship when the world can be dark. And so it feels like an act of rebellion in many ways to just keep grounding ourselves in that response. It's counterculture. I don't think this is the first time on the podcast that we thought that something's kind of like punk. Punk rock. Punk rock. Yeah. It's just funny because we're some of the least rebellious rule-breakers on the planet. We're like this is so crazy that you don't be so powerful. It's a form of resistance. Yeah. This isn't my form of rebellion. Oh yeah. Okay. Yes. So that's worship as a response. But the third category is worship as adoration. And so the glossary, the Episcopal Glossary concludes that like a very broad term concerning acts of adoration, which may be as diverse as private prayer meditation, public corporate liturgies, prayer services, or cultic sacrifices more on that later. Christian worship, both individual and corporate is offered through and in the name of Jesus Christ. So we'll zero in on adoration there. But that's what the Episcopal Glossary said about worship in general. Well, yeah. It's time for the Russian doll of definitions because the definition of adoration in the Episcopal Glossary is an expression of supreme love and worship for God alone. Hey, actually, that's kind of cheating that they just pointed us right back to the definition of worship and then say the definition of worship is adoration and then say adoration is worship. That's not fair. Okay. So what is this? At that adoration is an expression of supreme love and worship for God alone. Adoration, one of the six principal kinds of prayer is the lifting up of the heart and mind to God, asking nothing but to enjoy God's presence. Oh, a metaphorical tear just rolled down Kate's face. Yeah, but then I'm just thinking about like this is one I feel like I might engage in it not often at all. Like actually very little, yeah. Why I guess let's unpack that if you don't mind. Why did you have such a strong facial reaction to it and then you feel like you don't engage with it? Well, I feel like going to a place where you're about to worship can become routine in so many ways. I mean, we talk similarly about the liturgy and how it feels like you're going through the motions. And so maybe similarly to liturgy, like worship is something that it's good even if you're doing it, like you're forming good habits as we've said before. But also like there should be moments of just like being presence. And so if you're in a phase or like engaging in worship, feels a little bit more like you're taking part in a part of your routine, then it can be a little bit more challenging to have moments where you're just enjoying God's presence. Yeah, asking nothing but to enjoy God's presence is quite powerful. I think it just makes me think of moments where I have felt like I was doing that and you imagine creation. I think one of the ways that I enjoy God's presence is creation. Like there's nothing better than when I'm on a walk without headphones. And I am in God's creation, whatever that looks like and looking at the sky, looking at the trees, not necessarily deep in specific prayer or not necessarily doing mindful breathing techniques or anything, but just enjoying God's presence. So that's one place that I feel like I can do that. But yeah, I agree with you that perhaps it's something that you can ground yourself in as well during worship of, okay, I hope to just enjoy God's presence. And to lift, I love that definition of the lifting of the heart and mind to God. Like what a great way to frame up a worship experience. Yeah, I feel like your example of being in God's creation is really awesome. I also think too like kind of related to what I was saying at the beginning of the episode where if I'm singing in a service sometimes it can be very easy for me to be focused on like the task at hand and what I have to do, which is, you know, in the best case, lead the people song in the worst case, give a really good performance. But I feel like when I listen to music in church, like even with the organ postlude, for example, if when I have the opportunity to just sit and like listen to music and to the joyful noises of others, that is a moment where I am just like enjoying the presence of God asking nothing in return. Yes. Yeah, that comes back to music. Music is a great way to enjoy God's presence. And not to be asking anything of him, not to be asking anything of yourself necessarily, but just to like be present together. Yes. That's beautiful. I even find that in my car a lot. Let's be honest on the highways of DFW. I am enjoying God's presence through whatever song hits me in the right moment at the right time. Another thing I want to add, I want to add, I want to add to it. Adoration is also a term for like eucharistic adoration that they do in the Catholic church. Okay, I wanted to ask if you've done that before. If you've done adoration is like they'll say at a Catholic church, oh, adoration is from this time to this time or whatever. Do you know what that is? No. No. But I'm trying to use context clues to guess what you're talking about. Okay, well, I can explain it if you don't know it. Please do. My first experience with adoration was a complete accident because when I was at the monastery and that the monastery amongst our Catholic and they give you a little sheet that has all the service times for the daily office. And I just showed up to one of them and accidentally just sat there for an hour. And I was kept expecting, you know, someone to come in and start the service and no one did. And I just sat there for an hour and we were staring at the altar and I didn't really know what was going on. I was just kept waiting for an hour for someone to come in. And then I realized afterwards that before the service there was an hour of adoration, which is where they take the consecrated host and they like display it on the altar. And you're supposed to, and forgive me if any Catholics are listening because this is Annie's definition of what she understands, but that you sit in the presence of the consecrated host. So to Catholics, they believe that's literally Jesus as we've spoken about. And so you're literally just sitting there with the host. It's very interesting. Okay. So after that, I went a couple times on purpose and then I skipped it a couple times on purpose. As one does. Yeah. Yeah. I wasn't really sure about it. But yeah, just that's a very specific act of adoration where technically it's following that definition of just trying to enjoy God's presence. Oh, yeah. Okay. So we've done worship as payment, worship as landlord, worship as payment, worship as response, worship as adoration, and then our fourth category of definition is worship as sacrifice. Oh, okay. So yeah, the Episcopal glossary said that worship is possible as cultic sacrifice. And I think I got even more scared about this than I did with payments to be completely honest. No, I can't believe that was in the definition. It's kind of crazy. Well, it's true. It is a form of worship. But what's really interesting to me is that like we as Christians know very specifically that this is something that God doesn't particularly desire a different form of sacrifice is kind of yeah, but like like very traditional forms of sacrifice are like God's already been like, nah, I don't I don't roll with that. You know, it like makes me think about how burnt offerings and like other forms of sacrifice that were very traditional and like the ancient world are pointed out many times in the Bible as being something that God does not particularly care for. Yes, especially reframed in the New Testament like post post Jesus world. Yes, like we don't have to sacrifice animals anymore. We do not have to offer burnt offerings to our God. But maybe offering is a better word than maybe there's the song that I don't know which is not a great way to describe a song. I'll be able to find it in a second. But the words are every morning I lay down the pieces of my life at your altar and I wait for fire to descend. And I think that's a beautiful song that song always makes me a little emo of like every morning. I lay down the pieces of my life. I'm offering my life to God and I wait for fire to descend like I wait to be transformed and consumed if that makes sense. Yeah, give me one second. The song is Psalm 5 by the Porter's Gate. If you want to go listen to that, but maybe offering is a more interesting word than cult sacrifice. Yeah, maybe. The Psalms talk a lot about how God doesn't like burnt offerings, right? But there are other types of offerings and sacrifices that can be made, less violent ones. In the New Testament, in the book of Romans, it specifically says, "I beseech you, brethren, by the mercies of God to present yourselves as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship." So directly leading up to worship through this explanation, but you present yourselves. And there's actually, there's a choral anthem by John Ireland. It's one of my favorites, in case anybody was wondering. Which says, "You present your bodies, a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable, which is your reasonable service." And I love saying, concluding the anthem, which is your reasonable service. It's like, "You present the whole of yourself as a sacrifice to God for what He sacrificed to you, and your whole self, your life, is like a reasonable service unto God for what He has done for you." Yeah. Oh, I want to sing this anthem again. Oh boy, it's a good one. Do we need to make a sacrifice playlist? We could. We could make a playlist for everything we've learned. I know. We actually probably could. Yeah, every morning I lay down the pieces of my life at your altar. Like this is what I'm giving back to God. Another way that we can sacrifice through worship is our time and in the book, "Receiving the Day" by Dorothy C. Bass. By the way, it's Dorothy C, the letter C period bass. Yeah. But I always think C. Bass like a halibut. Like the fish. Yeah. I'm so sorry, Dorothy. But I'm quoting Dorothy's book all the time on this podcast. But in one of her chapters on worship in this book, it says, "One Monday morning, a pastor in Chicago got a phone call asking her to check the pews for someone's misled gloves. She found the gloves. She also found the previous day's bulletin marked to show the exact number of minutes and seconds occupied by each element of the worship service, opening him, three minutes thirty-eight seconds, Old Testament reading, two minutes thirty-two seconds, and so on, right down the page. Joyful worship that restores us to communion with the risen Christ and our fellow members of his body, the church, is an essential part of a Christian Sabbath. Contemporary culture militates against this, however, both by insinuating that worship is not a very efficient use of time. And by importing habits of clock bondage, and by importing habits of clock bondage into a gathering where the clock has no place. What is in the deepest sense a festival, a spring of souls, a time of freedom, not only from work, but also from condemnation, becomes instead one more carefully measured appointment. And she ends up coming to this point where she suggests that people come to church without a watch on which I just think is iconic in every way. But yeah, I love that it basically says the spending your time on worship is not very effective. Like it doesn't, it doesn't really make sense. If you're trying to optimize your time and your week and your day, this is not a time that can be marked out. I don't know. It's not like we're doing this to check a box. Yeah, it's especially in like a culture that's kind of obsessed with productivity. Exactly. When you consider worship like a productive thing to do, that's such a. Oh gosh, I just got sick at myself asking that question. And if you do, if you do worship because you think it's a productive thing to do, then I think something else needs to be examined within you of why is it you're going to church in general. So I think that that concept of worship as sacrifice of time, like it's a way to step outside of time, to kind of rebel against that constant need for effectiveness and optimization and a sacrifice of control and basically reorient ourselves back to God through that sacrifice. Yeah, the sermon today was about, as we record this, we're in Lent. But it was about how we can sometimes think Lent is about us, you know, how Mark Wahlberg's 40-day challenge. Oh my gosh, the Mark Wahlberg's 30-day challenge. How like the today show was like to Lent as Mark Wahlberg's 40-day challenge. How we can also fall into the mistake of like thinking that Lent is an opportunity for us to, you know, work on self-improvement or to do something that'll make us better. And that also is a mistake because Lent is not about us and neither is any other season like Lent is about God and it's a reflection of the character of God. And so I think worship and the sacrifice that we make by worshiping or the sacrifices we do give of our lives and our bodies helps remind us that it's just not all about us. Yeah, that's so true. Very insightful to know that many things are possible for worship as sacrifice. Yes. Yeah, not just cultic animals, but the sacrifices or something. I think it's the word cultic, man. We just got to get that out of there. Yeah, I'm so curious as to why that's in there, honestly. Okay, but anyway, do we want to move on to our final categories for worship? Yeah. Okay, the final category is worship as union. I was just poking around on like various Episcopal Church websites like from different dioceses to various churches everywhere and actually on the Episcopal Church of Garrett County Maryland's website. There was a definition that I liked. I thought it was nicely worded, but it said in worship, we unite ourselves with one another to acknowledge the holiness of God, to hear God's word, to offer prayer and praise and to celebrate the sacraments. The celebration of Holy Eucharist is the central act of worship and accordance with Jesus' command, His disciples. So this is very union focused here. We unite ourselves to one another and then through the Holy Eucharist, we are like united. And Jesus and God. And I have to point out that I looked up the definition of worship and the catechism at the back of the book of common prayer and this first part of the definition is pulled directly from the catechism. So this church website probably got that from the catechism. Yeah, well, if the people at this church are anything like us, they're like, we need to look up the definition. We would be at home in Garrett County, Maryland. Yeah, we relate. Yeah, I mean, again, another beautiful reframing of worship that worship plays a role of uniting ourselves with God and then also like uniting ourselves with each other. Yeah. The term corporate worship, I feel like it can so easily be heard. And then I don't know, I think about the other things in my life that I consider corporate and I'm like, oh, no. I don't want to go there. Yes, but it's a very important form of worship in the Episcopal Church. Yeah, Charlotte talked about that on her episode and then obviously the Joe Dewey, like I'm always referencing the Joe's episode about the body of Christ. We Episcopalians do enjoy worshiping as one body. And I think a small way that that's that you can notice that throughout a worship service is you'll notice that most all prayers and words the phrases are using we. We believe in one God, Father, Son, Holy Spirit. The prayers are not phrased with an eye. Yes, we confess our sins against God and our neighbor. Yeah. And so I think that's just once again another way to orient ourselves outward and away from the grip of the self that we are constantly fighting to view ourselves as part of a larger body that's confessing and part of a larger body that's worshiping instead of just me, me, me, me, how am I worshiping? And I think that's something that so many of us really love about the Episcopal Church is that focus on communal worship. And I think that there are some key elements of like corporate worship as it is practiced in the Episcopal Church that we could go through just to remind all of us about the various things that we can do and how we can worship. Yeah. Like if all those things are the why that worship is a response, worship is a sacrifice, for some of the tangible ways that you'll see those kind of come to life in an Episcopal service. So obviously we talked about music. Yes. Yes. And I mean, we've got just a beautiful sacred music tradition. You should listen to Mario's episode if you want to hear more about it. But I think it's kind of cool to Annie that your church blends like contemporary music in, which I'm so impressed by because it doesn't at all feel like mega-churchy. You know what I mean? Yeah, which you know, that's not an insult to mega-churches, but it's interesting. I haven't often encountered a church that like incorporates modern sounding music into a liturgical structure. So. And then, yeah, which brings me to the second thing that character I'm talking about. arises Episcopalian worship specifically, which is liturgy. We've haven't whole episode on that. - Yeah, ever heard of it? - Yeah. (laughs) So liturgy is something specific, a specific structure and repetition. - Yes, and then the Eucharist actually, like the Episcopal church finds it necessary and like to point out that Christ called us to participate in the Holy Eucharist, and they say this is like a very essential part of worship. That's why we do it every single week. Another way that you'll see some of these things come to life is I put it the bullet point, smells and bells, which we should probably have a more formal way of saying that. But did you come up with that? - No, no, you haven't heard that before, smells and bells. - No! Some people say that when they're talking about like, oh, I enjoy a high church setting up as the smells and bells. (laughs) - Do people use us to make fun of high church goers? - Maybe, yeah, perhaps you know, be derogatory. But that's a pretty unique element of Episcopalian worship is all of the tangible and specific like physical elements of worship, whether that's the vestments of the colors changing, the colors changing with the season, the incense, the bells, the smells, all of those aspects contribute to Episcopalian worship for sure. - Yes, there's also bodily participation. So sit down, stand up, kneel amen. Also known as Piurobics according to Robin Williams, 10 Reasons to Be Viscopalian. The diocese of Ohio's website actually talks a lot about Piurobics in their definition of worship. They talk a lot about how like everything has meaning and all of the movements, you'll notice a lot of movements when you come to the Episcopal church. - Yeah, and all the movements have meaning too in the process of worship. - And then the last bullet that we have is saying the words together, like a key element of Episcopalian worship is that we're all speaking together at the same time and that you're an active participant in the service. And as we were listing these items out of like the key elements of Episcopalian worship, I was just thinking that if you're in that phase that Kate's talking about of maybe just not connecting or seeing church as routine or repetitive, even if you're able to connect to one of these elements at one point during the service, what a gift that is. Like maybe I'm not thinking that much about the music or the liturgy that week, but I'm really connected to my body and I'm thinking about the kneeling and the standing and the crossing of myself or maybe I'm not connected to any of that, but the smell of incense hits me in the face. - Yeah. - You know, there's so much offered at an Episcopalian service that gives you the opportunity to connect, to connect with each of these things in various seasons. - Yeah, I'm just gonna say like in your life, like I don't like get on my knees to pray like very much and so the practice of even doing that usually, even if my head is somewhere else, like physically getting down onto a pew cushion and like yeah, at least trying to pray. Yeah, that one I've found can particularly take me out of all the noise of the world sometimes. So worship is a response. And how do we respond to this whole conversation? (laughs) Well, I would do the Una Reverse card on you because you're the one who kind of brought it up and said you were thinking about a lot of this stuff. So I guess where does this conversation leave you? - Yeah, so I came in with a lot of questions and I shall also leave with a lot of questions as one doesn't any good conversation with Episcopalians, but I think ultimately I've thought a lot about how worship is done of our own free will. It truly is an exercise of free will to decide to go worship and you're choosing of your own free will to make a sacrifice or to respond to God's goodness or to make the payment. So yeah, that theme just seemed to come up for me a lot. And then also I really vibe with the idea of like each form of worship being positioned to remind us of the nature of God. And like even if we are not having an insane out of body experience or even if we're like, we feel like, oh, I might be kind of performing right now. Like it will still reveal the nature of God to us in some way just by the nature of what it is. So like, I feel like I've just, I've used so much brain space in my life judging other people for how they worship or how they experience worship or what worship is to them. And I just like, I can't really do that anymore. I've decided to just like assume the best and others and just proceed with what I know worship to be and like how I worship at my church with the people around me. - Yeah. - It should be about me like we were saying. And so like if I'm constantly thinking about what other people are doing, then that also I feel like is a way of focusing on like the you of it all. - Mm-hmm. Yeah. And the word response, we talked a lot about that word. People respond in different ways to different things. Like that's what makes us all unique. And so your response to God might look different at different seasons of your own life. And then also different denominations will have different representations of their response to God and how they respond to the news, to the good news. So I think for me the definition of adoration of the lifting of the heart and mind and like wanting to just be in God's presence, it's what's sticking with me because I think that's something that also can very clearly be taken out of the worship service and brought back home of where is it in my life that I'm lifting my heart and mind to God. And yeah, seeking that simply to enjoy God's presence and nothing more. I'm not asking for something or journaling or being intense, but like where am I just simply lifting my heart and mind to God? - Mm-hmm. That's a wonderful thing to carry with you. And like I've got my weekly worship appointment, right? Also known as going to church. - But like I also leave your watch at home. - So true. So guilty. But I also kind of thinking a little bit more about like where outside of my weekly appointments at church, do I engage in worship? And you really inspired me by talking about just like anytime you're engaging with God's creation. It's a great place to feel reminded, listening to music. We said for a lot of people, could be a very worshipful experience. - Yep, I think those are the two key ways that I try to engage. And try not to pull out the phone. I think that's like another one is every little moment. People these days pull out their phone even if it's a two-minute wait in the line of the grocery store. And engaging with God's creation by looking around at the cashier and at the, all the packs of gum and at the person that's behind you. Like that is also a way to engage in God's creation. Like that is part of God's creation. And so not going to avoidance mode or distraction mode in every little moment I think is a small way to lift your heart and mind to God, to just notice where you are. - So, so woo-woo, but. - Well, and just as we said previously about like prayer and finding moments to be like prayerful, the finding moments to like appreciate God's presence or yeah, have just like a moment to worship and respond to what you're experiencing. Yeah, I think it can be done in your day-to-day life. - Well, to close off, I would like to share the final two verses from him that was stuck in my head the whole time we were prepping for this episode, which is him number 388, which is a classic him about worship. It's kind of a Russian doll situation and that it's like worship about worship, a worship song that's about worship. But I wanted to just read the final two verses to send us off. So the final two verses go, "Thy bountiful care, what tongue can recite? It breathes in the air, it shines in the light, it streams from the hills, it descends to the plain and sweetly distills in the dew and the rain. Frail children of dust and feeble as frail, in thee do we trust, nor find thee to fail. Thy mercies how tender, how firm to the end. Our maker, defender, redeemer and friend." - What a tune. What a tune. Yeah, and it's one of those that I've sung along to a million times, but really typing out the words into our notes made me realize how much of a beautiful poem it is and how much it's about the character of God, really, and that's why we do it, that's why we worship. And that brings us to the end of today's episode. We hope that you walked away with a new understanding of worship and that you bring that into your week ahead. Thank you as always to our brother Steve for the music that's playing right now. And thanks to those of you who have visited our website, theaveragepiscopalian.com. 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