EP#42- A Conversation on Athletics and Coaching with Joe Sirianni, Former Professional Australian Tennis Player

[Music] And that's the beauty of our tennis because you just move on. You can't dwell too much on one point. You've got to be in the present. Welcome back to another episode of Everyday in Dorfins. We are just about nearing the end of the Bolly series, which is so sad for me to say, because there are so many other people. I wish I had the chance to interview while I was there. And if I could just keep talking about Bolly, that would be fun. Obviously, it was going to come to an end at one point. But we're not there yet. We have one more after this week's episode. And that is a great transition into introducing this week's guest, Joe Cereiani. Joe is a former professional tennis player from Melbourne, Australia. He began playing professionally in 1996, where he's competed in the Australian Open on five separate occasions. And at the height of his career, he achieved the single's world rank number 138. Joe retired from the sport in 2011 and over the past 10 years, he's been coaching young professional tennis players all across the globe. In this episode, we talk about what it's like to live life as a professional and ex-professional tennis player, and what the transition has looked like from playing and competing to coaching, and how Joe has maintained his love for the sport. Joe talks about so many interesting things in this episode, so I'm really excited for you all to hear what he has to say. I don't want to give too much away, so without further ado, let's get into the episode. But before we jump right in, I have a brief message from my sponsor, anchor. Hi, Joe. Thank you so much for coming on to the podcast. Hello, Stella. Thanks for inviting me. We're here today to talk about your career as a professional tennis player, based in Australia, and the incredible experiences you've had, traveling across the world, playing, competing, and now as an ex-retired tennis player, coaching. I've been privileged to play tennis for all my life from a young age and being playing tournaments around the globe and and all that kind of stuff. And now coaching, I didn't expect to be coaching, but I just fell into it. I retired in 2011, I think it was, and a couple of my doubles teammates just asked me to help them out and travel the world and coach them. So that's how I fell into it. And here I am in Bali at the moment. Not a bad place to be stuck in, but it's been during lockdown. It's been during lockdown, it's nice. But yeah, look, with just like everything, it has its ups and downs. But I really enjoyed it. I love it. I'm still lucky to be involved with tennis. It started out as a hobby and turned into a job, but I don't see it as a job. And yeah, healthy lifestyle, I guess. Yeah, let's talk more about that. So when you first started playing, you must been really young, right? As a kid, just kind of. I was, yeah, I was three years old. So I started, because I started tennis because of my brothers and sisters. And they were getting coached every Sunday. I would tag along with my dad, picking up all the tennis balls and always nagging him, you know, let me play, let me play. And he would just like brush me off. And just say, you know, you're too young. Eventually, I think I'll warm down. And the coach at the time, he just goes, okay, I've had enough of this. Here's my racket. And back then, it was a full size wooden racket. No such thing as small kids size rackets. And yeah, he threw it into my hand and he just goes, you know, have you been playing? And I was just, no, just in the backyard, you know, up and down with a stick or another old tennis racket that we had at home, hitting the tennis ball, you know, up against the wall. And he just goes, okay, you have to continue because you're actually better than your brothers and sisters. So that's how it started, you know, started the journey, I guess. I played other sports as well. So, you know, when I was 10 years old, I had to decide some of my dad's goals, you know, focus on one sport more. And at the time, it was football or soccer and tennis. So I chose tennis. What drew you specifically to tennis? I think it was the individual side of things like solo sport and being out there alone and trying to figure out everything alone. And I guess that's why I grew up quite fast as well. So I was 15 and I was lucky enough to go overseas alone with two other friends and play in Italy for junior tournaments. We were all selected to go on a paid trip. So at 15, we're alone and we missed the first tournament because of jet lag and the tournament people and committee that were calling our hotel room, we didn't hear it. And we'll just. You're just passed out. We passed out in our boxer shorts and all these kind of stuff like, oh what? And yeah, we completely missed the tournament. So yeah, we got in trouble, but anyway, we had a laugh about it afterwards, but at least we played the remainder of the three tournaments. But that was a great experience because at that time we had the number one junior that was playing the tournaments and you know, Vince Spadilla. He was a top player from the States. Michele Rios was there. He was the number one Chilean player in the world who became number one men's player eventually. So just to meet and see these guys at the same tournaments, it was just an experience. And you were playing amongst these people as well? Yeah, we're in the qualifying, but those two guys, because they had, you know, they were one and two in the world, they were in the main draw. You know, I lost at that time, last round, qualis, but I was playing and being exposed to these guys that are playing all the time. I had no idea. That didn't know me. I didn't know them. And you know, we still had the same tool in our hand and we were competing really well. I mean, I was losing close matches. So I walked away like, I was quite happy bringing that back to Australia. It was all at the back of my mind just like how good these guys are like compared to the Australians. And I always, and I still do believe that tennis is Europe. You know, if you live in Europe, you've got so many things to fall back on tennis-wise like club matches, you've got prize money tournaments, you've got professional tournaments. It's just, it's so close as well. Like you can drive, you can fly or take a train. So everything's so close over there. Right. And there's so many tournaments that you can play. So many events. And that's why there's so many players. That makes sense. I never really thought of it that way, but now I can, I can definitely see that. And also, when you were in Italy competing, you were only 15. That's not an average 15-year-olds experience. How did you maintain feeling calm under immense pressure I can imagine? Did you understand exactly what you were doing, the fact that you were at this professional level at such a young age playing against these really high level athletes? Probably not. That age, like I said, we'll just like, we'll thrown into the pool and off you go, complete. It was a bit like that in Australia as well. So we were confident enough and it probably worked in our favour. Coming from Australia, we sort of laid back in a way. So yeah, just playing these tournaments and competing against these top junior players from around the world, it didn't really phase us. We sort of, yes, we knew who some were. Like I said, Vince Bidier and Marcello Rios and how they played, but at the same time, it's like, well, we've still got, the same, like I said, the same tool in our hand. Let's try to compete. But like, you know, I brought so much back home with me in how professional they were and what I need to do and work on to be at that level. You could either see it as something that's very motivating. Using those people as an example of what professionalism looks like and how you can get better and grow in your career and in your performance or you could let it get to your head and think that you're all that, you know, as a teenager, competing and being this, you know, really high achieving athlete. So I think it's great that you saw it more of an opportunity to just get better. To get better, yeah, exactly. And improve your spot on. And so was that kind of what kept you going, just that drive to keep getting better and to keep perfecting your own performance. Yeah, yeah, it did. Always thinking back to that and it was good. I'm so so happy and glad that my parents let me go when I was 15 and experience that. Just to see from a young age going overseas and you know, it's not, you're not just in this bubble in Melbourne or Australia. Like I was able to see from a young age what it's like outside of Australia and yeah, it was amazing and it did. It didn't improve me as a person and as an athlete. It's not only are you opening your perspective to the entire world, but specifically in the tennis world, like you're really seeing what the sport looks like outside of where you learned it originally. Exactly. And when you were at the height of your career, competing, training, you know, you made it to the Australian open a few times and you're back in your day, what did your routine look like? It was a 9 to 5 job. So, you know, I'd wake up really early. I'd go to the gym. I'd warm up and then I'd hit the tennis court for at least two, two and a half hours in the morning. So it was basically always say 10 to 12 on the tennis court, you'd have lunch and then two to four in the afternoon back on the tennis court and then you do gym. So you're practicing about almost five hours a day on the court? On a court for about say five hours, yeah. Wow. And then the gym is about two hours, like strength training. Strength training. Then you'll have agility, speed and all that kind of stuff. Physical trainer would have us in the pool. There were just all different kinds of things as well. Like sometimes we even played football, you know, like like cross training. Cross training. Right. And without even knowing that you're doing something. So from a young age, you know, that's what coaches do. They sort of, they pretend or, you know, as a teenager or a kid, you don't really, if you see it on paper or the coach would just go, okay, we're doing this, this and that. And you just go, oh, like this is like shrugged shoulders. I'm not not again. But if we did some fun activities, you wouldn't even think that was training. So you're kind of, it's like a psychological trick. It's like a psychological trick. You're tricking the student, the player, to make it feel like it's actually fun rather than like, oh god, we have to do this type of workout today. So, you know, and that's what I actually do with my clients sometimes too. So with my kids. So without even them knowing, they're actually training and doing something. And you were training your body so intensely, it's such a rigorous sport and to be in the gym and to also be on the courts really trying to perfect your technique and actually just playing the sport. It's a lot of physical activity. So you're definitely intensely training your body, but how do you also work to train your mind as a player, like to embrace the physical discomfort and also just learn how to push through that? I guess it came in a way like natural to me, like I knew that this is what I wanted to do. So you got to work hard, push through it, you know, like, and I was lucky because my body I looked after my body and I didn't have many injuries. So, but I also listened to my body if like I was having some aches and pains, I wouldn't push through it. I just, I'd stop. I'd tell my trainer, I was like, like, that's enough for today. Let's see how I pull up and recover and we'll do it for next day and stuff. So, and also I had mental coaches for my matches and stuff. So I worked with a few people. I had some routines on court, breathing routines, equipment routines they used to do and try to focus like in a crowd like, you know, it is. It's overwhelming sometimes. And you had the audience watching it. So, you know, the first time I played the Australian Open, you know, I was in a packed stadium and you freeze. You actually freeze and when that happens, your body just like your feet don't move, you're not thinking and nothing. You're just frozen so you have to wake up a bit, you know, like you either shout something out just to wake you up or you know, my routines was just focus on the ball, on the rack at the strings and bounce on your feet. So, very sensory. Yeah, so that's it. So, that's how I blocked everything out. But I could still hear my friends voice in the stands. I knew where everyone was, like my family and my friends because I knew their voice. So if they were cheering me on or whatever they would say, I could actually hear their comments. But it was quite funny. So, it was like very selective hearing. Selective hearing, yeah, yeah. Did that, was that helpful for you? Yeah, it's helpful, yeah, yeah, it's helpful. But I knew where everyone was. So, before stepping in and commencing the match, I would do a search, but I, you know, they'd either be behind me on front of me from where I was sitting for the change of ends. Like you were doing a meditation before you're actually starting. Yeah. And practice meditation? Yes, yeah. We did that and I continue to do that these days as well. So, if I do get nervous, I'll do a breathing session. It's good fun. Yeah, yeah. I recommend it. Me too. I think also being in Bali, you want to be on that health kick of meditating and doing yoga and really taking care of your body, being in sync with nature. But throughout your experience as an athlete and now transitioning into the world of coaching, what were some lessons that you learned that you have now taken into your coaching philosophy and how are you giving back your own experience to the clients that you work with? The experience that I had as a player, you can't learn that at a lecture really or from a book, you know, I was lucky enough to experience that first hand, being in those moments. And that's something that I can give back to the kids and professionals that I do coach that at least I know that kind of feeling or what they're going through. I had and I can sort of explain to them maybe a little easier for them to understand that moment. So, I think that's important because like there's a lot of coaches out there that haven't played professional and they might read this out of a book, but they haven't got that feeling. So, this is actually, I had this discussion the other day with another coach. A lot of people say that "ex-professional players are not good coaches" and I agree to a certain extent, but also people that haven't played are good coaches and I agree as well. So it's just a fine line, but with that, with what I just said before, they don't have that experience that they could give back to the juniors, the top juniors that are trying to become world stars or professional tennis players. They've been in that moment. They can relate and explain. I can imagine it also strengthens the trust between the player and the coach as well. I remember when I was rowing in high school, one of my coaches wrote at Michigan and Michigan has an incredible rowing team. I just had to trust what the coaches were assigning for the workout for the day because I knew they were drawing from their own experience. So I knew that no matter how painful it would be or how challenging it would be, there was always a purpose or a reason behind it rather than them shoving workouts at us for us to do. Yeah, and you trust it because it wrecks always. Exactly, you trust them and it's like they've gone through it, they've been through it, and this is what you need to do. And also coaching juniors, kids who are in their teens or early 20s, maybe, that's a very transformative time because a lot happens in your adolescence. Yeah, so not only are you acting as a coach, but also kind of like a therapist in a way to these players because you're with them all the time. Can you talk a little bit more about what the routine now looks like as a coach rather than when you were playing and how much interaction you have with these players? So with the teenagers and all that kind of stuff, you have to manage them more. So as an example, I was travelling with one of my clients from Melbourne, Dwayne Duncan, and he was 17 at the time and he was his first trip. So I was booking flights, hotels, telling him to hydrate, to eat this. So I was looking after his diet coaching. On top of all this, coaching him, watching his matches, then replaying his matches, and then pointing out the goods and the bads and of that match, getting him over to my, or sitting him down and going over the match, it's completely different because when you're applying, it's much easier being a player. You don't have to think about that. All you have to think about is just playing and hitting tennis balls. You just do it. That's it. Also tactics, that's another thing, against the opposition. That's really important. So you're scouting the coach has to scout. Sometimes I like to bring the player with me just to watch a bit. Like scouting for people to play against? Yes. They're their next opposition. So just to watch them play, how they play, we're going to try this. Maybe his forehand is weaker than his backhand or vice versa. He might have a big serve. What does he do on big points? Does he serve down the tee or does he serve wide on big points? So all this. And so you're looking at that to then challenge your client to get better in a particular technique or area. Technique or area. So when he plays against this opposition, we've already done our homework on the player. So not all the time, it's going to go the right way in how you want it to go. For instance, like on big points, he might go serve tee. But the guy might just change and go wide on big points. And this is where there's a bit of conflict with the player in the coach. Sometimes the player would look at the coach and go, you know, he went wide instead of tee on the big points. What can you do? You just have to go, what? Bad luck. You know, just move on. And that's the beauty of our tennis because you just move on. You've got to be in the present because you're constantly moving. It's things are constantly changing. Literally, the ball is coming out you in direction. You hit it and then it comes at you in another direction. It's a tough sport. It's probably one of the toughest sports out there because like what you said, you're chasing a ball. You have to stop, pause, hit the ball back and you're constantly moving. Up, down, saw it to saw it forever, you know, like an inch on the, yeah, and there's any one bounce. Exactly. I mean, I did a tennis coach or a tennis camp once when I was like 12. And it was so challenging for me. That was the moment I realized I do not have a hand eye coordination. And tennis was not the sport for me. But I liked your point earlier about it being a very individual sport. Because there is something really calming about that and also really meditative in a way because you're the only one that's controlling the outcome of your actions. You can speak more to this, like that experience of just being in your body, like having that intuition and knowing how to use your body to play the game. Yeah, so, you know, like I said, you do your homework before with a coach, before you're stepping out and going out to play this match. But once you're in the ring, we call it the ring, the ball ring, you're all alone. The coach and your supporters can only support you. That's it. I mean, it's not, you can't coach the player because you'll get fined. That's one of the rules during the match. During the match. So if you do, like the umpire catches you or the coach talking and maybe giving some advice, I mean, that's coaching. So you'll either get a warning or you get fined. So you can't do that. That's just one of the rules. One men's tennis anyway, whereas the WTA and the female side things, they were experimenting with the coach coming on court. So the player could actually call the coach out there once a set. So they were experimenting with that. So that's not happening at the moment. I'm sure it's just good to have like the moral support there, not even needing the coach to be directly by your side. But there's just knowing that the person's there and family and friends coming to watch, I'm sure, can help. Look, crowds do help. They've helped when I was playing. They've helped me. And that's why a lot of the players, you know, during these times, like COVID, there's no crowds. So that's why it doesn't, for the players, they're not in the buzz. Did Wimbledon, it had a crowd, right? It had full capacity. Right. And the players loved it. And it was a big buzz for them. You know, whereas a lot of the tournaments before that, no. But the US Open coming up soon, that's got full crowds as well. I can imagine how exciting the US Open, like the players may be feeling, to know that there's going to be spectators and people will be able to watch. Exactly. It is. It's inspiration as well. You use the crowd to fight yourself up. And yeah, just energize yourself, really. Absolutely. We've had this obviously a very strong passion for the sport because you've stuck with it for so long. But how have you been able to maintain keeping your mental health in check as an athlete, then also with the added stress now of coaching? And for example, with the player you were mentioning, you had to book his flights, take care of his diet, everything. But also, isn't this the same player where you got COVID or he got COVID and then you couldn't end up playing at the specific match or tournament you were going to? Yeah, so because it comes easy for me because that's no one did it for me. So when I was traveling, so I did everything alone. Along the road, I did have some help occasionally. But once I left Australia, I was gone for at least eight. Yeah, coming from Australia doesn't help. So once you leave, you're abroad for about eight to ten months. So I was lucky enough, I was living in Europe, but I had a base over there, so that was easy. So I was managing myself with all my flights and tournaments and practice sessions, just everything my hotel booking. So for me to do it for someone else, like I know what needs to be done and how. So it was easy. That transition was easy for me to do. Basically you're making the player happy and I want the player just to think about tennis. That's it. So you can't do any external stress. Yeah, exactly. So to keep me grounded, I'd still keep my routines of going, try to keep fit myself. That was my outlet just to blow out some steam maybe. Yeah, just to have a clear mind all the time and just thinking of ways not to be stuck in quarantine. So that was another one. That was like, I was always checking. I was on the website. It's like, where can we go with no quarantine? We did a good job anyway. We didn't. We didn't have to quarantine. Wherever we went. But you were able to just go out and play and be fine. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. And then we were in Turkey. Unfortunately, I got covered there and then the boy when he arrived in Jakarta because that was the plan to come to Jakarta to play the two junior events. He ended up testing positive. But in Indonesia with self quarantine, I was in Turkey with self quarantine. So we managed to get over that. So reconnected and reconnected. Be COVID free at that point. Yeah, COVID free. But then two days prior to the commencement of the tournament in Jakarta, they canceled the tournaments. So then we're like, what are we doing? There's no other tournaments in Asia. So I said, let's go to Bali because I know some people in Bali. There's two pre-season there and I'm still here. And I've been here since Christmas day. Christmas day. And probably we'll be here for the foreseeable future with the continuation most likely of the lockdown. Yeah. I can say myself still being here. Yeah, I mean, this past year and a half has been so stressful. And COVID has impacted people in so many different ways. For example, with your story, you're adding on your work to this as a coach and also the player wanting to compete, wanting to play matches and then all that being canceled. That must be so disappointing and so stressful. How did you raise his morale? I'm sure he must have been really bummed. Yeah, look, he was bummed. Because you're training hard. But at the end of the road, you sort of thought the tunnel, you're seeing it's like, why are we training? There's no tournament. There's nothing to play for. But the goal is now. It's the smallest kind of. So we did a preseason. It was supposed to be like six weeks over here in Bali. We extended that to 10. And then after that, there were moments where, you know, his morale was just going down. I was like, OK, I have to speak to his mum about this. We have to leave and reschedule and either go back to Australia or go back to Europe and be competitive. There were tournaments in Europe that were holding tournaments nearly every week in three countries, especially. So it was Turkey, Egypt and Tunisia. But we ended up going to Tunisia, but he went alone. We were actually going to go to India. So we got our visas for, we're going to go there for one month. This is before COVID-19. India. Oh my god. It was the first scare or just like, or not the first scare because obviously when COVID had started, it was horrible in Italy and Spain. But what I'm thinking of is like, as of recent, India was the first. And now it's Indonesia. That's. Now it's Indonesia, exactly. So before that happened to India, we were going there for one month. And then his mum, I guess, had a few chats with Dwayne and sort of convinced him not to go. So we didn't go. That's another thing. Not only are you managing the player, but you're managing his or her environment with the family, parents, siblings. Exactly. So I was his parent, really. You know, I, yeah, exactly. I had to look after him. But he turned 18 on. And now he's an adult. Exactly. He can manage himself. Must have been a great celebration. He was a good celebration. And you know, I'm still in contact with him. I'm still mentoring him. So he's back in Melbourne. Being coaches and mentorship, a lot of the times these things that are asked of you are not easy. And you just have to trust, I guess, like that your mentor, your coach has your best interest. But it can be really, really challenging. It's challenging. It's demanding. You're not only just a tennis coach. You're an agent looking after the player. Yeah. I mean, with that being said, what are some of the biggest lessons that you've taken away from the sport as a player, but also now as a coach? Just being grounded and just knowing what to do, just having that experience. I guess it's kind of indescribable. Yeah, it's indescribable, I would say. I like being on time all the time. That for me is important. Punctuality. Exactly. Yeah. And you need to be that whatever you do. Showing up. Showing up on time. You can't be late. You can't be late. You're doing something a different job. Your boss is going to go nuts eventually. You've got to be there punctual on time. And with the kids that I coach, some of them are not. I was like, hey, you're 10 minutes late. What's going on? Do you make them do extra laps? I do. Punishment. Yeah, I do. Like conditioning. Yeah. Exactly. Hey, don't do this. Or put your phone away. Like that. I hate. You know, when you're sitting down, they're all in their phone or not. It's a huge distraction. I remember like if we came in to practice late or if we weren't down at the dock right when we needed to launch the boat, we'd have to do extra. or bees or exactly or we'd have to oh my god it was a pain. If we bumped the boat like coming out going onto the dock, if we were like taking it out of the boat house and you accidentally bumped the rig or something, we'd get in so much trouble because you can't damage the boat but sometimes it's crowded in there. So yeah, I think that's a tactic that many coaches use like getting the disciplining. The discipline, yeah. That's really important from a young age. You can't be lazy if you really want to do it, give it a hundred percent. A hundred ten percent. Yeah. I mean also starting this for at such a young age, three years old, through your first exposure, you've had the time and the experience to really build your resilience toolkit and learn how to be more disciplined and I'm sure it's carried through your entire life and everything that you do. Like my partner, I mean like I'm a nearly bird. But you know, she just, she finds it incredible how I can just like, my body clock is wakes up at five, five, thirty. Yeah, what does the schedule look like now that you're not, you know, competing anymore? I still wake up early. Yeah, you're up early. It's like it's embedded in my body. So, you know, going to school, I would practice at six a.m. before school would start. So, and it'd take me an hour to get to school. So I'd be out my alarm would be say five, you know, five o'clock. Sometimes I was lucky enough for that my dad drove me to the train station. You know, made my way. I never got driven to school. It was public transport which I loved anyway. So get to school like train for an hour, you know, shower and then go for my classes. And then after school again, training. But from a young age, I'm still waking up early. I usually go to the gym. Now the clothes can't do the sauna, can't do the ice bath. Yeah, can't do all that. So hopefully not for too long, I hope. So I'm actually, I started running around the block. So I'd go for like a ten minute jog and then come back. But that would, yeah, for me it was, it still is, it's enjoyable. But it's a nice way to start the day. It's not hot. No, not in the early morning. It's okay. And then I come back and do some other things like I might be doing court or, you know, lower body or upper body stuff like that. And some stretching. So important. And it's good to just stay active. Like not with the gyms being closed. Get in some sort of physical activity and some movement, whether it be walking or a late jog or just something to get yourself moving in the morning. And it's also a good way to teach the kids as well from a young age, even though if it's raining. Hey, you're not going home. We're going to do footwork or like indoors. You can always do something. So I like teaching that sort of things as well to the kids. Not to just go home and be lazy. Right. You don't get on your phone or a computer and play a computer game. No, you're going to do something instead. You're going to make it work. And I think it's great that you still take care of yourself because you have to be a role model to your clients. How else are they going to trust you if you're not practicing what you preach? Yeah, exactly. 100%. You know, not only for them, but I do it for myself and my house, my mental health. And just, I mean, I'm not getting any younger. So, and I have to spend time on court, you know, hopefully in a few years or whenever, maybe I'll cut back on that. But at the moment, I feel good on the tennis court. And while I can, I can still compete against them. And, yeah, I still enjoy it. I mean, you still got your game because recently you want to match against the top tennis player in Bali, who's only 18 years old. 18 years old. 18 years old, the best player in Bali at the moment. So look at that. It's clear you're doing something right. So, yeah, a bit of fun. Look, he challenged me and I'm happy. You know, and now I think on Friday, I've got another challenge against the 16-year-old Putu Agassi from Bali. And he, after I played Scar two days later, he sent out a challenge. So that's this Friday. And so that, look, I trained with him twice a week. It was a little bit more than that before, but I cut it back to twice a week. But, you know, you're still keeping up the routine. You still got it. Yeah, still, still. I still enjoy it. I still like getting out on tennis court and hitting tennis balls. Well, that's amazing because I feel like, once you're so dedicated to something, it might be easy to lose that spark or that love for what you're doing. So it's really incredible that you've been able to maintain that. It has its moments. Don't give it wrong. You know, it has its moments. Sometimes I just, I don't feel like going, like, I'm being honest. I don't feel like going on the tennis court. And again, going back, I listen to my body and I won't go for a day or two, just to sort of refresh, re-energize, and then feel good. Like today, I felt good on the tennis court yesterday, didn't. So today was better. Tomorrow, I'm not going to have a day off. I might get a massage and then play Putter on Friday. Sounds like a good plan. Yeah, a good, a good plan. Yeah. You can do it here in Bali. Exactly. We have the luxury of being able to go and get a massage, and it's so inexpensive. And it's good to get massage often because it really gets through the kinks or whatever, and your muscles. Yeah. I like to do it once a week. I can't even remember the last time I did get a massage, but usually if I'm playing and working on the tennis court, it's once a week that I sort of get a massage. Yeah. It's a nice way to relax and nice way to end the week. Exactly. I know it's very calming. Yeah. Also when you're putting your body through so much physical stress, it feels so nice. It's necessary to have that to just kind of cool down one day. Cool down and just look after your body and your muscles. I think that's a main takeaway is just having that bodily awareness and that intuition and learning how to trust that and listen to it will help you really in any aspect of your life. You don't necessarily have to be a professional athlete to cultivate those skills. Exactly. Well you've had such an incredible career and it's such an honor to get to sit down and talk to you and have you on the podcast. Thank you. One of the questions that I ask every single guest that comes onto the podcast is what is something that brings you endorphins? Compatient. Just for me that's a thrill. It doesn't matter what kind of tournament or it could be anything. It doesn't have to be a tennis tournament. It could be any sort of challenge actually. That's good because life is just tons of challenges. Tons of challenges exactly. Life brings you endorphins. That's one other way of saying it. Another way, yeah exactly. I didn't actually think about that but there you go. It's like Stella. I think that's a really cool answer I haven't heard that before. That's good because we usually tend to try to retract from challenges. You don't want to engage in the difficulties that are presented to us but to see it as more of an opportunity maybe is what? I guess it's maybe because of my background in sports. You always have to find there's a lot of roadblocks. There's a lot of speed humps. You get knocked down but you have to bring yourself back up and move on and go forward. Like sort of tunnel vision. It doesn't matter. You've got to have the straight one path. And don't veer off. And I guess maybe that's from that. I was knocked down so many times but just continued. It didn't bother me. Sometimes it did. Towards the end, yes, it actually did. It got to me. As I got older, I was frustrated but when I was younger, who cares? I didn't care. I just kept on going. I kept on taking things too seriously and just keep your eye on that. The goal and sight, the vision and sight. Yeah, exactly. And move on. I think that's a great lesson and something that we can all practice because it's hard to remind ourselves of these things. But with that note, I wanted to thank you again. It's been wonderful having you as a guest. Thank you Stella. Thanks for the invite and thoroughly enjoyed it. See you on the court. I'm not, but I'll be there in spirit. In spirit, exactly. Thank you for listening and remember to like, rate and review this podcast on whichever listening platform you prefer. Don't forget to keep spreading endorphins and find things that bring you endorphins every day. See you next time. [MUSIC]