Ep 404: Postal and delivery strategy expert panel

Welcome to episode 404 of the Postal Hub podcast. I'm Ian Kerr, special episode today. We're going to feature a panel discussion which we recorded at the Omnick stand at parcel and post-expo. In London recently, the panelists are Charles Brewer, group CEO, Paws Malaysia, Gary Starr, executive general manager, parcel post and commerce services at Australia Post, Christian Ersta Guard, lead visionary at post-Nord and Julia Lockman, junior partner at Omnick. And we're going to talk about, well, broadly, postal strategy. This is a special episode brought to you by Omnick. Well, enough chat. Let's get into it half an hour of postal strategy with some real experts. Welcome to this special delivery strategy panel. We've assembled the good and the great of the postal and delivery world here at the Omnick stand at parcel and post-expo, which on by Julia Lockman, junior partner at Omnick. We've got Charles Brewer, CEO of Paws Malaysia, Gary Starr, who knows everything about e-commerce, probably Australia Post and Christian Ersta Guard, who's lead visionary. Visionary, brilliant post-Nord, I'd like to think that we're all visionaries. Let's talk about delivery strategy. We are in a particularly interesting time, especially for the postal world. We've got all these conflicting forces. We've got falling letters, got rising parcels, lots of competition, demanding customers, the rise of AI, automation, all the time to be alive. What are times to be alive? People say the postal sector is boring. I disagree with that. Why don't we start with, I might start with you, Gary. Let's talk about e-commerce customers, because they're driving all of this e-commerce parcel volume into our networks. Do you think that e-commerce customers, especially the retailers, are they focused on quality of delivery, or are they just focused on price of them? What's the feedback you're getting? I think it's really a combination of both, so there's not black and white. They need to go faster, because the global platforms are driving faster deliveries, and they're using that strategically to attract customers with the global platforms. We are seeing, Australian retailers want to be able to offer faster speed, but with great certainty. I think the thing that really stands out that I'm seeing is choice. They recognize it's situational. There are times where customers want something really fast in a couple of hours, and there are times where good and cheap is good enough. If they can offer that choice to check out and make those options really clear, then we're seeing those that are doing that reap the rewards. Has that been a market-led evolution, would you say, in Australia? Only a few years ago, really, you had one option for delivery, which is the e-pass. We've got all these options now. What's changed that? Is it the competition from the platforms? It's demand. Fundamentally, it's a competition from the platforms who have set up their own gig economy networks, and they're offering very fast with subscription, same day next day, same day becoming more common in more cities in Australia every three or six months. So that's what's really driven the Australian retailers to respond. And frankly, we're encouraging to respond faster, so making sure that they have that choice to check out, and they can really differentiate when they know their customers well enough to know when a customer wants a speed and needs a quickly, and when a customer wants free shipping, maybe it's to a locker, or to a pick-up drop-up point, a post office. But the differentiation between those two so that they can give their customers that choice. Charles, what are you seeing in Malaysian? Yeah, very similar. I mean, again, Malaysia is actually a little, I think, a little bit different to Australia, so Malaysians are keen on price, but if I just said keen on price, it wouldn't really answer the question. They want both. In our environment, for the majority, not all, for the majority, they want a really great service level. Predictability, I think, is becoming more important, so not just fast, but the visibility and predictability of delivery is becoming more important, so think Uber, think shop, grab. They want to be able to see that last mile of van coming around, so they can plan their life. So predictability becoming more important. And I think to Gary's point around sort of same day and on-demand, it's a little bit of demand creation. A little bit of demand creation. I think the platforms have created this, hey, you can have it in one hour, or two hours, or three hours, or same day, or next day. And that demand creation becomes quite sexy, and people want to follow it. So my wife has, as a great example, who's an Olympic online shopper, stop it. So my doorbells don't stop, and I quite often say to her, why do you need a lettuce delivered in one hour, or a tomato, it's just, there's no real logic to it, and it is to do with this demand creation. It's a little bit like, you know, the uberization of the taxi in my market, grab. We didn't know we needed that sort of predictability and visibility before it came along. They created that demand need, and now if we didn't have it, it would all be lost. So there's the same thing within delivery, I think, fast, cheap, and much, much more predictability. I want to start. Can I just add in? Think about what Charles said, chemist warehouse is a great example where they offer next day, typically delivery, but they introduced the same day service a few years ago. And they charge for, they charge for it, and yet they've seen a significant uptake. So it's situational. It could be for medication. I'm sick. I have mobility issues. And so people are choosing to order and pay the $4.95 for a same day movement, and get in, I think, the average is 51 minutes across the country. It's pretty amazing. But then a lot is delivered next day. Yeah. And that's okay. And so it really depends. Gary, in your market, what percentage is same day rough? That's fine. It's very small. Exactly. I think that's only to bear in mind is that same day while it's growing, no question about it. And that, you know, my kids won everything yesterday, you know, so that there is definitely an incremental approach to wanting speed and same day and one hour and two hours. But it still makes up a very, very small portion. Most of it is still next day. 95% of our volumes are next day, yeah. That's interesting. But the next question was going to be, at what point do regulators and government starts to take an interest in this, that local governments will have an interest in, say, the amount of traffic on the roads, and we're here, the room is about, or we want to reduce the number of delivery vans on the road. Or we want to increase the uptake of certain delivery modes and does same day delivery play into that. Definitely. You know, our minister, which pro-small measure falls under for four years, has been talking about the necessity to regulate the market from a gig economy perspective, more to do with safety. And so you find, again, in low-salaried environments, quite often the gig economy driver would do one, two, three jobs. And if they're doing two or three jobs, they're probably doing 15-hour days, 14-hour days, 17-hour days. And that's dangerous. And so we really try to manage that carefully. So there is more conversations around, hey, there is a risk to everybody wanting in one hour or two hours or three hours, a little bit less about vehicles on road more to do with human safety, which is, I think, a good subject, a good thing, a good thing that they're talking about, yeah. We might come back to that later if time for many to talk a bit about the post-position as a model employer. I want to talk a little bit about the, since we've got a broad geographic spread here in Omnix in many different countries, just because of delivery strategy works in one country, it doesn't necessarily mean it's going to work in another. So what, and perhaps I mean post-Nord is a really good example, right? You've got two countries and two very different approaches. So I might start with you, Christian. Is it, how do you manage the, how do you get inspiration for delivery strategy from other countries without just saying, oh, we're going to copy what's done in another country? Yeah, but I think this is something we are quite agreeing about across the industry, is that if you don't address every market in a different way, you're going to do mistakes. And it's going to be whatever you do, if it's new technology, if it's processes, it's whatever, it's decisions, it can be, you know, all the markets are incredibly different. And I think also, you know, I'm also quite engaged in startup communities and stuff like that. This is what we tell them. You can't address us all with the same proposition. You need to understand the market you're in, because there's differences. And we have, you know, post-Nord is, of course, the postal operator for two countries. We even set a good buy to one of them in Denmark, where we don't have letters anymore. So we said goodbye to the user obligation. But all our markets are quite different, you know, we have in Denmark and Sweden, we have most of our delivery drivers in-house and in Finland and Norway, most of all of them are actually statatories, you know, set of statatories who are symphoid working for us, which we hire, you know? So, in that sense, they're working as subcontractors and you just need to figure out what works, you know, we try sometimes to insource, we try to outsource, it's a question about what balances and how you, how you can get the most out of it all the time. So you need to be really up, up on the beat and figuring out how you can serve your customers in the best way. And that is the most important thing is actually you serve the customers and keep an eye on your cost, because the cost is actually, for the last mile, it's actually the most expensive thing we have. So this is where we have to do something better than we do today. And I think that's true in, I think your question and comment is true even within countries. So if you take Malaysia, for example, we have the tech industry-centred cities like Panang, which is Kitech. Chips, their requirements are very very different to say East Malaysia, Tau al-Sypanana, Sarawak, whatever it may be Which is textile agriculture? Lots and lots and lots and lots and lots are very small SMEs, MSMEs They're that environment is a very different environment. So again, I agree with Christian But one size fits all doesn't work even within country let alone outside of country I think the structural to your question if you went to any of the 98 postal operators the structural challenges that we all face male declined to your to your point is common Yeah, that's common the the organic upside-opportunity parcel is common How you go at it and to Christians point I think can can be check can change and be modified by location and even within country Yeah, now we can't go without talking about parcel lock is briefly Julia We just talked about in how the the differences within our country I'll make his presence in a number of countries. You've installed a number of parcel lock and networks What are some of the key differences when it comes to a parcel lock and network implementation? Do you just find a site and plonk or lock it down is at the same in every country or are there Differences that you need to understand before you actually set out the strategy for out-of-home delivery? Yeah, that's true from the product perspective. It's always different So there is no country where you can apply the same behavior for the customers where you can apply the same product and For 13 years we had many success stories and we also made some mistakes for instance in one country we made the deployment for the outer solutions very hot climate and then we started removing things So we removed the keyboard keyboard. We removed the printer we removed the monitor and we transferred the all customer experience to mobile phone and we thought okay from the Product perspective it works good then it was technologically advanced product, but that time However, nobody used the locker without the screen because the screen was an invitation for the customer to use product and when they did not see it They just walked past by it. So that's after we realized we stood by the locker We watched how people move and then we Sand the screen back and the utilization rate increase so that like really means that you really need to understand the context You need to understand customer behavior and you need to see where people move how people move where they spend more time Whether they drive by car or whether they walk on food and like what their patterns so to say so Continuing the same a little bit. I'm gonna come back to you Gary plays because We're seeing a number of e-commerce retailers and you mentioned this before Who are saying well, we want to do more than just sell online and ship out of a warehouse We might start using our own logistics network our own last mile delivery network. Do you think that? More retailers as they get bigger will start to think like an Amazon and so we want to own Every step of this through to the last mile So I actually don't see that in I think and we recently acquired a last mile orchestration platform called Render Which orchestrates that last mile, but doesn't own the assets so it has Uber door dash go for other You know players like that on the platform and Australia post Star Trek But it's orchestrating last mile and I think a lot of retailers are looking at the orchestration piece But not necessarily doing it themselves So we've they've seen what Walmart's done in the US with Spark where they built their own last mile orchestration And maybe a couple of the really large retailers that you'd know well have the wherewithal But in the main I think they'll partner partner with other platforms and hence our decision to acquire the the Render platform different e-commerce Environment in Malaysia and Southeast Asia in general have different dominant players. What's happening then the opposite? Yeah, so Southeast Asia's a you know, I've had the pleasure of working around the world and and so and as you just said Every market is different. So Southeast Asia is a little bit unique So a very high precaution of parcels that are created come from the platform. So in for example in Malaysia 70 75% of all parcels that are created come from one or two one of two if not three Platforms. So three people or three companies Dominated known that mark that that market for the most part and to the question you ask they've all created in one way shape or form Their own delivery network and you know, I was talking to somebody else about this just this morning If you have the volumes and maybe that's the difference if you have the volumes and you can fill a van Why would you outsource it to somebody else and pay money or money? Initially don't want the hassle of course. So so in our market it's it's very competitive Very controlled somewhat monopolistic you could argue and I see that growing in fact one of the platforms And I would say one of the newer platforms that is doing very well globally who doesn't have its own logistics platform today An outsource is all is testing its own logistics and has said for years We have no intent of having it our own logistics platform is now testing that logistics platform in Vietnam and and I can see the day when they would put vehicles on road in Lisbon or in Munich or in Copenhagen or in Kuala Lumpur or wherever else they operate because why wouldn't you? So what do we do what do we do then? I the risk of me being the negative now here I mean do we just so it's all too hard? Let us are gonna kill us everybody's gonna compete on parcels Let's close the doors now and leave it or do we in the postal sector actually, you know, grit our teeth Yeah, and say we're gonna compete. Yeah, we're gonna be better One thing the answer is it's a rhetorical question as I'm expecting I think the answer is I think there's there's two two ways to look at it One is it depends whether you're a glass half full or a glass half empty person. I think in some respects But it in my opinion and it is purely my opinion I think the the journey has got several more twists and turns to go yet before we know whether that's gonna be on Mass or we'll shrink back for example one of the platforms in Southeast Asia that used to have its own logistics platform shut it down about two years ago for a different all sorts of reasons So I think there are a few more twists and turns to go so certainly from a post Malaysia perspective It's real simple. We focus on being a great parcel delivery company and the tail as the tail is it is today That tail may get longer. It may get shorter. It may grow again. Whatever it may be so whatever market we plan We want to be a great parcel carrier. So that's that's our perspective in and not not dissimilar for us I mean, we I think I'm we're glass glasses are full We want to and our post-30 strategy clearly causes out. We want to support Australian retailers to compete with the global platforms and so offering speed both in fulfillment and last mile Third party logistics capability. You know minority investment into 3PL is all about speeding up and supporting Australian retailers To be able to compete but it's very it's very competitive and very challenging And so in part of part of that again depending on where you see glass half full of emptying part of You know our beliefs is that they're the regulates as a part to play here And you see that happening in certain markets around a world already where you know if one platform becomes too large and becomes monopolistic That's a I think that's a problem for trade in general domestically or internationally. And so again like I said earlier I think there's several twists and turns to go To go just yet. Oh, we we have to make sure we don't become a this isn't a long-term thing We've said in the postal interview the posts can't become the deliverer of last resort Which is that's a dangerous thing. We have to somehow get above that But I we could probably talk for an hour about that and not get anywhere Maybe we'll just move on to automation then we've seen automation in our sector for a long time Automating and delivery centers more recently technologies coming to the last mile with parcel lockers and with storage systems in the back of post offices I'll might direct us to our lead visionary here today first of all Christian what's next for automation? You post on LinkedIn recently that we should have robots loading parcel lockers And I thought surely he's playing with us by saying that not what I said actually said our lockers should be robots And there because they should be integrated better with the you know And why I say it unless they assume little bit back Western Europe has a people pyramid going the wrong way Most of the drivers on average probably today around 55 years old We uh when we ask the young people what they want to do in the future They don't want to drive vehicles. They don't want to work in our terminals. They uh, you know They want to do other things fair enough. It's not the most popular jobs So what we see in front of us if you if I look 10 years ahead and compare it with 1974 for every retired person You had five people working in 10 years. It will be 2.2 people working in the notice And they will not be working in in logistics and the reason they won't be that is because If you look at the educational 83% of the of the Danish young people are taking a high school degree That is not to stand and solve puzzles in the evening is not to drive a lawyer So we have actually structural problems and this is not just in the knowledge. We have it all more most over Europe So the thing is that when I provoke a little bit this industry is actually because We're building up a process which is very dependent on the driver actually feeling the locker And when you look at this these lockers are so good. So they will stand there for the next 10 15 years without a problem The first ones we put up in 2004 they were and the ones we just took took some down that we put up in 2008 in post-denmar Uh, we just took them down last year. They were standing there for 15 almost 18 years, you know So so these are an infrastructure that you build up and you know what happens with infrastructure You will maintain it because the positioning is all the other things. So what I'm seeing is that in in front of us in 10 years, a locker will be extremely expensive to fill. And the reason it will be that also is that the fastest, you know, if you look at inflation, we will have inflation and it will be in Europe around 20, 25, 30% in the next 10 years. But for transport and for drivers, it will probably be the double because there will be a lack of them. And that means that, you know, that filling those things, if we do it in the same way as we do today, we will have a cost increase of the driver's area of maybe I saw the statistic for Eastern Europe, it's up to 70% because they are quite low today compared to what we have today. But in Scandinavia, it will probably be 50, 60%. And which means that we are talking about the salaries when you can't compare to being today, because you just increase in with 50% over a 10 year period. To have them to fill up with a locker is actually gone. You have to think, you have to think about it. That's why I'm saying that you need to look at it. The other thing is that what's happening in robotizing today is like these polar functional robots, what I mean, polar functional. It's actually, you can have a body which is more human-like on top and you have wheels underneath, you don't need to have a humanoid because most of the things we're doing logistic is flat, it's flat, you know? So you can save on complexity and cost. These can mimic people today. And the most, you know, if you want from a saving point to refactor all your terminals because this is our inventory, it's actually the terminals. They cost the most of all the things. 80% of that cost is land and housing. But if we can keep the things we have inside and we can actually, every time somebody goes on retirement, put in a polar functional robot who can mimic the person, it's the cheapest way of keeping up competitions. And we have to say we are not competitive because we are really people heavy. And you know, the prices that you can negotiate with leasing deals and whatever and buy back plans because robots are so versatile that if you buy a robotic arm today, like the one you're to see outside here, you can use it for many other functions. So we have a future which is actually gonna transform us in the way that we are thinking and operating. This is what I'm saying. And that's why I look at these beautiful lockers that we have everywhere, but I'm looking at the cost of filling them in 10 years. And there will still be the in 10 years because we can't take the sunk cost of not using them because it's a part of positioning. So we are putting a little bit of a lock on ourselves if we look into the future. If we don't think about how we're gonna solve that equation of the future. - Since we're talking about lockers, Julia, do you have any, we were talking about automation before we started recording and the value in when you are. So might you have any comments on that? - Yeah, I really like your perspective about the robots and how we need to work with filling all this infrastructure. And I think that that's gonna be the next step. And we already see some robots even in that expo. And I think that the main question is how you orchestrate these robots. Because robots can do tasks, but you need to assign specific tasks to these specific robots and make sure that the way how people live and work together with the robots is safe, secure and efficient. So that's, by the way, what we have started doing with the Logo S system, starting orchestrating robots and making sure that robots will be there very soon to fill up parcel lockers. - I just have to say one thing. The ones who can integrate our thermal production with our distribution are gonna be the winner. So today we are very much signaled thinking in the way that we're doing our operation first mile mid mile last mile. The ones who can actually make sure that this is like an interlock between how we sort our parcels and how we distribute our parcels, I would love to also see that we can also load our distribution vans because we spend up to 15% of the time which should be on the road actually loading these vehicles. And if we could integrate that, you know, I've seen in front of me that we have a huge solder, power solder, whatever it is in the future. Dropping in the parcel into a bin, the bin is being put on a van, being driven out into a locker which you have which is robotic where you pull out a bin which is coming from the last days, you know, returns and you know, shipments that you send out a locker, you switch it in and put the new one in, the robot inside, picks them up, puts them on the shelves and thereby is actually that transaction for the driver is three minutes instead of spending maybe 25 minutes filling up a unit, you have locked it with almost 1,000 compartments, you know, it takes time to fill them. But if you can convert that into a three minute stop, I think we have an extremely efficient process. - I think if I may, Christian hits for me anyway, the core of this which is, you know, for postal operators, you know, it's Australia Post or Post-North or Post-Major. You know, we, as I said, we have those structural challenges are fairly common for all of us. And one of those structural challenges is related to the cost of the USO, servicing the USO which post-North of fixed for themselves. But for Australia Post and for Post-Major and majority, all postal operators except for Post-North, that cost of USO is going up and up and up. So that's challenge, fiscal challenge number one. Second part of that is, and as Christian mentioned, we work in, if you want to go back to the question about, do we give up or do we carry on focusing on parcels? No, of course, we carry on focusing on parcels. But to focus and to win in the parcels sector, we have to have a lower cost of reduction. You can't carry on with the relatively bloated organizations and most postal operators have, not everyone, but most postal operators. And the route to get there is definitely robotics and technology. So leverage it, anybody who's watching this or listening, if you're not already, you've got to be looking at how do you leverage what's coming down the track at a fairly fast rate at rapid speed to provide about a service, to provide a safer environment, better than much lower costs. There's a whole conversation for us to have about, whether or not we're heading towards the death of free delivery or the enablement of free delivery, thanks to robots. But we've only got a couple of minutes left. I want to ask a couple of quick questions. We're just talking about now about the post-rollers employers. I feel like this is where one of the key differences between a postal operator and a private operator, the post is often part of the government or majority owned by the government. And the post has a role in being, in my opinion, a model employer and have good relationships with all its contractors and whatever shape or form they might be. Do you have any quick comments on that and how you contrast that roles a model employer with the need to be a commercial niche, how we say, to be efficient? I mean, so trust-- one thing that is common for most postal operators is trust is high on the agenda for our customers and for our employees. So if you go to any Campong City town village in Malaysia, I'm sure it's the same in Australia. Everybody knows their postman is. Everybody knows their post's name, been there for a long time, high, high, high degree of trust. And if we don't look after our employees, our frontline employees, that trust are a road. So again, for us, despite-- Which is a key competitive thing for us as well. Absolutely. I think it's often undervalued. That trust package is really important. And it comes not from me. It comes from the postman or the career doing the delivery. That's where that trust is born yet. And that's number one. Number two, 15,000 and 15,000 employees have worked for post-Malaysia. Whilst they grew up and grown at me at various things, well, one thing is very common. They're super proud of who they work for. They're super proud of post-Malaysia. And they're really proud of what they do for the communities they operate in. So to your question, with the plethora things that we're-- leave us, we're pulling, spinning plates, we're spinning, testing, human noise, doing whatever we're doing, nothing takes us away from. First and foremost, people go out safe, come home safe. They're happy. They're as happy as they possibly can be and we keep them engaged. So to your point, absolutely number one. I agree with everything Charles has said. It's exactly the same in Australia. All I would add is that over the last 24 months, we've had a very concerted focus on hiring younger people into the workforce and generational change. We had, like, I think all of us, the average age is over 50. Post-Is is even higher and many are starting to retire. So we're going to have a challenge filling some of those roles you spoke about Christian earlier. But we are having some great success recruiting Gen Z younger people into the workforce. They do connect to our purpose, interestingly. And a range of roles post-Is as well as in data and AI and other parts of the business. And so I think we have to continue to double down. We've got the truck most trusted services brand in the country. We are, you know, our people trust high engagement, but we've got to continue that generational change. And I think we can actually become more attractive than we are today. Because if we use the technology, we will also be, you know, we're taking away some of the worst parts of our processes which were invented sometimes almost 100 years ago or more. You know, we are taking these are quite standardized processes. We have been running all the time. Now if we can get some fully functional robots in and making it more attractive for different people, who actually, you know, we tested smart glasses and sorting. And you know, most of the people, they are actually gamers. They are, you know, and they love them. You know, it's like you expect that when you come with new technology, people are going to be resistant. No, they love it. People on the floor are much more positive than many managers when you're taking to these things. We were having a polyfunctional robot sorting from the end of the shoot into to the roller cages and and one of the guys he came standing there looking at it and he was like, okay, I said, okay, I think that this guy he's the shop's to it for the night shift and we've walked and talked to him and he says, yeah, this is the future, you know, I can't get colleagues, so it's perfect. This is the future. It's not that we have to expect that we are we are doing bad things by bringing these things in. No, we are trying to survive in the company suspect, you know, if we if we don't get the cost down, competition is fierce and and they're major players, they are doing these things. We're we're over time, I'll confess and somebody's got a hard stop, but we aren't allowed to say who and at what time, but last question really important, we're seeing a lot of talk in Western Europe, in other countries in particular about environment, sustainability, we've got zero mission zones, we've got targets, posts and delivery companies in general are perceived as being emitters. Never mind that we're delivering the parcels that we're ordering. Anyway, it doesn't matter. What role does sustainability play in future planning, in strategy and things like that? Krista might start with you. Yeah, but what role does sustainability play in all this? It's it's a it's a high team factor. If you don't have it, you will not be there. We have tenders today where the we have to have, you know, we have to have a last mile, mid mile, anything that is making sure that we are doing sustainable deliveries. So for me, it's a high team factor, you know, we can't think about anything but making sure that we're trying to be as sustainable as possible. It's that I'll hear a social life social license to operate. So that's how we think about it. And I do think that that that connects in though with we think about that also in terms of tech and AI and how we can, you know, route optimisation. So yeah, there's electrification of fleet, there's, you know, five six star buildings, all that investment for short green energy. But in the end, there's also technology and we can do things smarter and more efficiently as well. But it is it's sort of table stakes, I'd say, and it's definitely a hygiene factor. And sorry, one other just to add, I again, fully fully agree. Most countries and again, not all the same, but most countries, the governments are looking for lighthouse examples. People that they can point to and say they did it so you can too. And given the most, in most countries, the post-lock rate or as seen as a bastion of all things good and trust, I think us doing it allows many others to see what if they can in their challenging environment, then many others can do. So for us, it's good for the P&L. It's good for our people and it's good for the planet. So it makes perfect sense. There's so much more that I want to talk about because we've got such a great panel here today with barely scratch the surface of things that we've talked a bit about out of hand. Delivery, we haven't talked about cross-border e-commerce. We haven't talked about returns, my personal bugbear. More drones. Hey! I know you love that subject as I listen to your post-all-hand. Oh, wow. I think it is Moscow's session. Yeah, yeah. Well, if we all want to sit around and beg, delivery drones sometime, I'm here for it. But hopefully we'll be able to get the band together again and talk more about this because there's a fascinating subject. I think these are urgent and necessary topics for us to discuss in the poster world. So ensure relevance as well as commercial success for us and for the poster people all over the world. I want about to ask for a round of applause. If you're watching this at home, please, a round of applause for Julia Lockman from Omnick, Charles Rua, CEO of Cosmolasia, Gary Starr, the e-commerce, and Zah from Australia Post and Christian Herster guard lead visionary at Post nor thank you all very much. I think part of this very special discussion. Thank you very much. Thank you. Coming soon on the Postal Hub podcast, loads of great guests. I've got Henny Van Bogstel. He's from Vandaland, we're going to talk about it. Well, look, if I tell you what we're going to talk about, it won't be a surprise when you listen to the podcast. I've got Julia Publanko from Ukra Poshta. I've got Helen Skurfield, CEO of Ascendia Returns. We've got many, many more great speakers. So don't miss a single episode. Subscribe to the Postal Hub podcast today in any platform or all of them. I don't mind when you're over there subscribing. Please do leave a rating five out of five. A little comment about how wonderful is how it's changed your life for the better. Right? Anyway, subscribe. Head on over to thepostalhub.com and you can subscribe to all my email newsletters there. If you want to email me about anything at all, my email address is Vian at thepostalhub.com. I'm Ian Kerr. Thanks for listening in and I look forward to your company next time on the Postal Hub podcast.