Ep 389 - Jet

We have kids, we parent well together, we do life well together. We started a makerspace together, you know, we just, we love each other's families. Like, there just wasn't anything else wrong. And like, it got so bad for a while there with this being the thing that was wrong that was like, I wish something else was wrong. So there would be an easy decision here, you know, to make. If there's just not, like, there's not, they just can't, can't imagine just giving up on all of the other awesome for this one specific issue. Welcome to normalizing non-monogamy, the podcast where we interview incredible people from all over the world to hear their personal journeys of self-discovery through the lenses of love, sex, and relationships. Our mission is to show people that they're not alone and to inspire them to embrace their true selves so that together we can open minds and live authentically without shame. We believe everyone's story is powerful and beautiful, yet it's important to remember that everyone does life a little bit differently, and that the views and opinions expressed by our guests do not necessarily reflect our own. Additionally, we aren't doctors, please consult the medical professional for anything regarding your health that you might learn about on the show. Enjoy! Well, welcome to episode 389, we're Finn and Emma, and today we have a powerful and beautiful conversation with Jet. First of all, Jet is a member of our community, and today happens to be her birthday, so we wanted to do a quick shout out and say happy birthday, Jet. Happy birthday, Jet. Hooray! Jet has also been married for over 20 years and monogamous until about two years ago. Yeah, as you said, Emma, this is a really powerful conversation, as Jet shares a really challenging journey she's been on the last few years with her husband. Around two years ago, she sort of discovered that she's polyamorous around the same time that she and her husband realize that he's likely somewhere on the asexuality spectrum, and as you'll hear today, it hasn't been an easy journey for Jet and her husband, and for Brad, as they've navigated a really, really tough situation, and so we just want to say thank you to Jet for coming on and sharing so vulnerability with us. We really appreciate it because we hear a lot of stories that are similar to this with mismatched libidos or mismatched sexual desires, or monopoly dynamics, and being able to hear what it's actually like for people to go through, the challenges of this is really, really important. So once again, thank you, Jet. We also wanted to mention that sexuality is a spectrum and we've included some resources in the show notes if you'd like to learn more. We also wanted to define two terms that we use today. The first is allosexual, which typically refers to anyone who feels sexual attraction for other people, and the second term is gray sexual or asexual, which typically refers to anyone who rarely or never experiences sexual attraction. Yeah, and as you said, these are a spectrum, and there's some links in the show notes for some more resources about this. It's not a hard and fast, perfect science. So please take a look at those resources, and we hope you enjoy this conversation today with Jet. For anyone who's a premium subscriber, we're going to jump into the interview with Jet now. And for anyone else, we have a few announcements. First announcement is how to become a premium subscriber, so you don't have to listen to the rest of these announcements. You can sign up on our homepage over at normalizingnamanagamene.com, scroll down there on the homepage towards the bottom. You'll see all the information there where you can sign up for just four bucks a month. Next up, as we mentioned at the beginning of this episode, Jet is a member of our community. And we wanted to take a moment and just share some information about our community with all of you. Our community is full of over 300 members supporting and socializing with each other every single day. Next, our community on a platform called Mighty Networks, and we have monthly community calls, virtual workshops, and in-person retreats. We have just started doing the virtual workshops, and we're really excited about launching these. The next one is going to be on May 8th, facilitated by Jolly Hamilton, and it's called Be Friending Jealousy. To find out more and to sign up, go over to our website, normalizingnamanagamene.com. Click on the community tab. Outside of our community, we've also got some really exciting things coming the next few months that we wanted to take a moment to tell you all about. We're going to be running our own workshops at two different weekend retreats out here in California, and we'd love for you to come join us. The first event is over Memorial Day Weekend, that's May 23rd to the 26th. We'll be at the Bonobo retreat, and a few weeks ago, we had Danny come on, episode 386. She's helping organize the retreat, and is part of the team at Bonobo, and she talks more about that. Go listen to her episode if you want to learn more, and there are links in the show notes to dig into all of the information for the Bonobo retreat. Again, we'd love to see you there. If you can't make it out here by May, don't worry, we got you covered in June as well. We'll be at Soulplay. We were at Soulplay last year as members, as guests, and this year we'd been invited back to around a couple of workshops, so we're really excited about that. That's over the weekend of June 12th to the 15th, and on episode 387, a couple of weeks ago, we had Holly come on, Holly is the executive director for Soulplay, and she talks way more about it. Again, there are links in the show notes to learn more about Soulplay. Both of these events are here in Northern California, and we would love to have you come join us. We also know that it's not possible for everyone to get out to California, so we've got you covered as well if you're not able to travel around the country. Yes, as Ben said, we also have a virtual speed-friendly event coming up May 16th. These events we bring everyone together in Zoom and utilize breakout rooms to split you into groups and meet a bunch of different people throughout the night. It is a wonderful way to meet like-minded people, and these are open to anyone you just must be open-minded and respectful. To sign up for our next virtual speed-friendly event, go over to our website, normalizingnamanagamy.com. You can sign up at the banner at the top of the page or under the events. Again, come join us May 16th. Yep, and just to be clear, we don't just put you in a room and let you figure it out. We ask questions, we facilitate the conversation, and we make it a good time. Yes. Again, if you can't make it to California for Memorial Day weekend or the weekend of June 12th, we got you covered. And finally, we wanted to remind all of you about our favorite way to get tested for STIs. It is STDcheck.com. Go over to our website, normalizingnamanagamy.com. Click on the Resources tab, and using the links there, you can get a 10-panel test for only $129 and you support the podcast, so thank you in advance for doing so. This is the service that Fit and I use. We love it. We tell you about it every single week, so go and check it out. We wouldn't tell you about it if we didn't love it. Exactly. And the last, last, last, last thing that we want to tell you about is that we would absolutely love to hear from you. Please send us an email, send us a voice mail. We love to get your feedback, and we would absolutely love to have you come on the podcast to share your story. You don't have to be a member of our community. We don't have to be organizing the Bonobo retreat or organizing solo play. You just have to be you. So please reach out to us and we'll make it happen. And with that, let's go and talk with Jet. Welcome to the podcast, Jet. We're excited to have you here. We always love talking to new guests, but particularly our community members. So welcome. Welcome to the podcast. Thank you. You're excited you're here. Me too. Yay. How do we start by introducing yourself? Sure. I'm Jet. I am 40. I'm a mom of two girls, a preteen and a teen, which still is insane to me. Even me being a mom is insane to me. Still. What else? I live in the Midwest. It's a very small town, less than 30,000, but also it's not just a small, it's far away from everything. So we're not, we're not, we're hours away from big cities. So we're really out in the middle of nowhere. Yeah. Yeah. Which I'm sure has a, has its challenges when it comes to Namanagami, but we'll get there. We'll get there. Don't want to, don't want to rush it, but yeah, maybe, maybe let's go, just maybe, oh, I'm going to come in. I'm going to come in. I'm going to interrupt. Yeah, interrupt. Please, please do. I'd love to just start with like kind of what is your relational dynamic today? Sure. So me and my husband have been married for 20 years, and been monogamous, our whole marriage, up until this very last little bit here, maybe two years. And we're in a dynamics that's Paulie Mono, and I would consider myself for sure, Paulie by orientation, and he would consider himself Mono by orientation. So we're in Ace Aloe relationship where I'm the one that's Aloe, maybe Demi, a little bit on the Demi side of things, but definitely comparatively Aloe. And my husband is Ace, not sex repulse, but, but way pretty low. So that's what we have for that. I've had one partner that was a really close friend, and that had to get deescalated because of feelings that it was bringing up for my husband, and it was our first go at things. And so we're still friends, but not wouldn't say that we're in a partnership of any kind. And then I actually also have a fairly new person that's maybe a partner, maybe a, she's a very, very good friend of mine, and maybe a play partner. I don't know. I don't want to offend her with the designation. Both of us have a hard time with labels, so she's one of my people in an important way, and we have fun together. So amazing. Yeah. Thank you. And before we dig in too far, would you be able to sort of share with us what Ace and Aloe are for anybody who, who hasn't heard those terms or maybe would love a little refresher on them? For sure. And this is actually, I've been interested in just relationship, alternative relationships and stuff like that. My whole existence. I took every class I could on marriage and relationships and sex and stuff like that in college, and I actually didn't know about Ace until about two and a half, I'm not sure on the timeline exactly, but two and a half or three years ago. And so Ace is asexual, and it's a spectrum. So you can be all the way, you know, sex repulse where you really are averse to sex or, you know, don't like touching, don't like thinking about it, or you can just not really care about it very much. And then you can also dimmy is sometimes considered on the Ace spectrum where dimmy sexual is where you are only sexually interested in somebody if you are like really close to them, have a close connection with them. And so that's kind of that spectrum. And then Aloe is just the opposite, Aloe sexual, meaning what people would consider a typical sexual interest. Yeah. Okay. Appreciate that. Thank you. We'll put some resources in the in the show notes for anybody that just wants to go in and look these up because there's also gray sexual, which is sort of part of that asexual spectrum as well. And I think just keeping in mind too that like sexuality in general is just a giant big spectrum. And I think it should be fluid and it can be fluid, what you know, depending on the time, I mean, down to the time of the day, right, time of the day, time of life, the phase, everything. So yeah, I'm just really grateful that we got to talk about that a little bit. And I'm sure it will come back around in the story. So, so maybe backing up what, I mean, it sounds like you've been interested in relationships and all forms for a really long time. But what happened two or so years ago that really sort of shifted things? Well, there was kind of two different things that happened around a really close time. One was that I had a really good friend who was a male. I've kind of always been drawn to males, more than females for friends. And as an adult married woman, that comes with some complications and some raised eyebrows. And I worked with a conservative small town. Absolutely, absolutely. And so we were able to be friends in a group. And so we always did group things with other people that we worked with. But we were, we were pretty close like we had, we had some, some magic talking and people could see it in us and stuff. But this is still monogamously married and grew up in a conservative Christian adjacent world with purity culture and all that. It leaves over. It's not contained for a while. Yeah, yeah, it does, unfortunately. So I was, you know, really good friendship with him, you know, very good friends with my other friends too, but there's just, I, is that labeling thing like I couldn't, I couldn't let myself just say he's, he's a friend because like the other people I work with are friends. And then I have my really good friends that are the friends that I go out and do stuff with. And he's a really good friend too, but he like should be one of my people. And I use a lot of language like that. So my husband kind of caught on to that and hasn't ever been a jealous person. I really haven't had sexual attraction, interest in anybody the whole time we've been married. So nothing has ever really come up. And my husband just, he knew like if there was a person to be worried about this, this is accurate. This is the person he should be worried about. And I, I, you know, flat out told him that when he first started asking me questions is I get it. Like this is great that you know me this well that this is a person who like if there was a threat that would be a threat, but you know, it's not a threat. I don't love you any less. I just, they're just a really, really good friend that I can't describe. And I just bothered him so much like if it's just friendship, why can't you just say friendship. And I don't know. I don't know if it's my neuro atypical brain that just won't let me be what I felt like was inaccurate, but that that kind of ate at him. So with that coming, being around like that, and then also my husband had always been relatively asexual and I just didn't know that that was a thing. And I, I think in, in my female interest in sex and strangely also purity culture mind, it would always have gotten better. It was always going to get better. Like we were always going to have more sex eventually. It was always going to be fine. So I was stressed about it. I was sad about it. I was sad that that that I had, you know, like we talk about in purity culture, prepared myself for my husband, waited for my husband, and then he doesn't care. Like, just, you know, it's fine sometimes, I guess, but I'd rather be eating cake, right? Like that's what they say. And he, he feels that strongly. And so, so that was happening at the same time, which I'm sure was making his insecurities a little bit more about me, maybe being interested in somebody else, but also as I'm trying to figure that out, knowing that that was a big deal in our relationship and having struggles because of this other guy, the sex issue and him not being interested and not being able to say why and not really wanting to address it and like he's pretty diverse as having conversations about it even. And so we kind of, we were getting not good and we basically are never not good to like 18 years, never not good and it was getting, it was getting bad. So I started looking more into stuff about, you know, I have a husband who's not interested in sex and that's actually where a sexuality came up for the first time and I read a book called Love Without Sex, which is a sequel book to many love. I think it's called so I, you know, as an audio, actually, the Love Without Sex is an audiobook. And so I listened to it like in an evening and learned about and in it is polyamory because you know, polyamory includes all sorts of non-sexual relationships and so that asexuality looking that asexuality really led me directly to be like, oh, oh, polyamory is a thing. And then they're describing this, having deep relationships with friends and family kinship feelings really easily and being in love with somebody, even though you're already in love with somebody and not making you love them even less. Like all of these things are coming in and I'm so like having my mind blown by asexuality and like taking this to my husband and being like, oh my gosh, look at this. Do you think this is you? And at the same time being like, oh my gosh, do you hear this? This is me, like this is 100% me having, yeah, being in love with people more than one, or more than one at a time, not wanting to put labels on things because things feel so different for each person, not being able to rank things. So like both things happen kind of simultaneously. That's a big evening. Yeah. Wow. My husband didn't hook on to it quite as quickly as I did. So he wasn't really going for the deep dive that day, you know, or really other days, but me. Oh yes, I was on a pass for sure. Yeah. Well, because it feels like in that moment something was unlocked that was like, oh, neither one of these things is bad or wrong in any way. It's just this is describing who you are and this is describing who I am and that can really, if we can like learn more about that and talk about that and like investigate some of it and just like be with it, be curious about it that could really help our relationship with ourselves and each other. And you know, I think he kind of saw something in himself in it right away. Like he said something to the effect of, I know why you why you brought this to me, like I know why you're having me look at this, this I understand, but I don't think that's me. He's also neurodiverse, he's also a versus putting labels on things. So he's like, I don't think I need a label for this, but I see what you're getting at, but I don't think so. But I was, yeah, I was relieved. I was like, I hope that this is what he feels like he is because this makes sense at least. Like I can get this. I can learn about this. I can figure this out. But then as he's like, but no, it's not that exactly. Then I'm like, oh no, that was supposed to be the thing. What is it? And just kind of over time as he's got more use to it and learn more about it and looked at Reddit and listened to what people read what people said on Reddit about how it feels to be asexual versus how it feels to be allosexual. He really started to be like, okay, I still don't like the label, but this makes sense. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, shit, it's so hard in this world to slap a label on about anything these days, but also one around something that I think carries some stigma, right, where especially, again, we're going to go and generalize here, but especially men are typically painted as these hypersexual masculine beings that are just, that's all they want. And if you're, and if that's not you, then like, there's, there's something wrong and that's sort of the, that can mindset can come in really, really easily. So I, yeah, like I said, that's a big, that's a big evening. One big book and a lot of big findings for, for both of you. Mm hmm. Yep. Where did, where did the two of you go from there? I know you kind of said like it took some time and it's still probably taking time, but where, like from there, where did you choose to go? Yeah, because that was like, they said two and a half years ago, it's somewhere around there, yeah, not that long ago. Yeah. Well, and if you remember when we had the first San Francisco get together, that's, that, I mean, it was close to that. Like, I, I joined really quickly after I started this, um, spound the podcast, join the podcast, join the community. And then, yeah, so, I mean, where we went from there, it was not, not super great. I don't know exactly in what order I was learning about polyamory and what, oh, order this. My, um, I really good friend, Dom, that was from, um, my work, he, uh, ended up having to move away and I was getting really, really, really, really sad about it. I had lost some other friends recently and so it was felt like, you know, an even bigger deal. And so I actually got to get together with him at the very end of COVID. We social distance around his bare front room as is like, you know, the night before he was driving up there for basically the last time and sitting with him and just, just being heartbroken that he was going to be gone and feeling shitty that I'm a wife sitting with somebody whose husband is worried that I'm in love with this guy. When I kind of am in love with this guy, but I don't want to cheat and I'm not going to leave my husband and this guy doesn't even know that I feel this strongly because that felt too risky to even, you know, to even let on and, uh, and just feeling so alone in the whole thing and then I drove home and I actually didn't go home. I went over to my cousin's house and asked if I could, and he came out in the middle of the night and I was like, but what if I do love him and my cousin was like, yeah, you do like you do. And I was like, uh, but what does that mean? And doesn't that mean I have to tell my husband doesn't that mean, you know, all the just terrible heart breaking like that means a divorce in TV at least. That means a divorce if you're in love with somebody that's not your husband and, um, so, you know, good job me the next day. So I had spent all this time preparing my husband like, everything's cool. Well, I can't you, you know, call him just your friend. Well, you know, I have this, I have this constellation and like some of my friends are like over here and they're closer and some of them, you're not even in this plane of existence. You're so far out, but like, but he's over here and, you know, so explaining all this. So the next morning, I wake up thinking, but I do love him thinking, but everything I said last night was real. So made the mistake of being like, okay, so you know, I've seen everything last night. That's all true. Nothing more than what I said last night. But I think that it makes more sense if I say that I am in love with him and that obviously now looking back broke everything for a good long time because your wife isn't supposed to just wake up in the morning and say, yeah, I do love the guy that you're worried that I'm in love with. That's, that's real bad. So that was life altering a few seconds there that happened. And then therapy immediately and he said, are we that bad? You know, I don't want to go to therapy. That means that we're going to break up people who go to therapy, break up and like, no, that is what happens, but we're going to go to therapy so that we don't break up so that it doesn't get that bad so that it doesn't get worse. We're going to go now and he was like, okay, and actually went with me to my therapist a couple times and then had a little bit of satisfaction and just sure you love him like family and friend, combination, good enough. Yeah, sure. Okay. Just maybe don't talk to him very much now that he's gone or something. Maybe don't see him when he comes back to town and I was like, really, really and eventually he was like, okay, I mean, you know, it's just, I'm glad he's gone. And that also made me very sad because my husband shouldn't have to be sad when one of my best friends is, or shouldn't get to, shouldn't have to be happy when one of my best friends is gone. And I am sad. It shouldn't have to work out that way. Yeah, so that and that's just, that was just that. That wasn't even a thing. That wasn't even me like wanting to pursue a relationship in anybody. That wasn't me looking for sex somewhere else, even like that was just how hard I like people, man. Yeah. That was just very genuinely me. I see people and I just, I just want to be their best friend. You know, I can just see my people and I just want to get them as fast as possible, you know. I am. I do want to make a comment and say that for, first of all, I'm really glad that you had a cousin that or somebody that you could go talk to about that that night that you, that you had that, but that's amazing. And like, would you recommend doing what you did the next day and sit tell your husband that doesn't sound like it? And that also took a lot of vulnerability and a lot of courage to, to say that. And well, yeah, maybe there would have been ways to like navigate that differently. It feels like that also was a catalyst to have it to the two of you having some much bigger conversations that needed to have. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. My cousin had just moved there actually right before the pandemic and got trapped there. So that's why I was lucky enough to have my cousin around. So that was fantastic. And yeah, vulnerability hasn't been something that has been too difficult for me with my husband, but we had never had that dynamic before where it had been contentious in any way or that he hadn't just defaulted to, will I believe you? You know, like, I don't, I don't understand. You're kind of a weirdo, which we both know that we're both weirdos. You're kind of weirdo, but, you know, I'll go with what you're saying. And this was like, no, something else is happening. And so I think that I, in, well, in some cases, the vulnerability would have been good. I think I, I don't know, I don't know. I still don't know. I don't know if I wasn't thinking, if I wasn't thinking about him in the way that I knew he would react, or if I really believed that he would just so default, believe me. And the words that I was saying that I thought it, that he would figure it out quicker, or like, be okay with it quicker or something, because that was a real mean thing to do to just say to my husband who's not interested in alternative relationships and does not learn about this for fun, to be like, oh, yeah, I do know I am in love with him, but it's not what you think when I say that. He, you know, once you say it, he doesn't hear anything else. There's no, there's nothing else he can't hear anything after that. I, I also, I think just want to have some compassion here too for, I think this is a, this is a place where, you know, we show up, whether it's about relationships or anything, right? We know what's going on inside for us, right? And so you're coming to deliver a message that for you is, is I'm in love with somebody, but I have zero interest in leaving you. This is not going to, like, right, we can in our head, we're like, not going to ruin my life. I don't want anything other, just, I just wanted to express this. And you, you have it, like, built up in your head and I just, I can tell how many thousands of times I've done this where I'm like, I want to deliver something and I deliver it and it, like, blows up and I'm like, what the fuck, like, like, why don't you know what's going on in my head? And why don't you feel all the things I feel like you shouldn't be scared, but I can't make you not scared when you hear the things that you hear and you feel the things that you feel, but it's like, it's so disorienting when you're over here going, you really have nothing to be afraid of, but you're terrified and freaking out. Well, there's so much more to it. I'm aware. Right. I'm aware, but I just wish it were a whole lot of things. Oh, yeah. Of course. I do feel. Yeah. So I don't know. I just, I saw a lot of myself in that, that it's not, you know, it's not like you're going to be like, okay, I'm going to blow up his life today. It's sort of this, I'm really clear on what it is and what I want and how I feel. And it's not a threat to our lives or our marriage or anything, but that's not always easy to convince or communicate to somebody else. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. It was, it was a, it was, yeah, it was a relief went for that little bit of time before he woke up. It was a relief to be like, I have a name for it. The name is a dramatic name for it. He thinks it's dramatic. So this makes sense. Right. And, and so this will, this, yeah, I, this will make him feel better. I don't know. And, and, and so begins the constant learning that we all do through, I would say through Namanagami, but all through life, right? We're just constantly bumping around breaking shit. I don't know. I'm trying to examine myself this more than anything because this is, this is a thing. I need to remember as well. So I don't know. I just, I appreciate you sharing sort of how that went. And, and I'm curious where, where, where did this take you to? You, you were in some therapy and what, what came from that or what came next? Well, so, um, things were not getting better. He was kind of, um, kind of backed out. And I was learning more and more about polyamory just being so thrilled that like, I'm not as weird as I thought it was. I'm happy to be weird and I'm my own kind of weird. But like, to know that there are other people who watch movies where there's love triangles and they're like, idiot, just date. Both of them. Why would you not? You're best friends with this one and you're freaking fantastically quickly and love with this one. Just keep them both. What are you doing? And I actually, as I'm, as I'm, you know, was learning about this, um, all of this, I am remembering stuff from my youth. I only had one other serious boyfriend before my husband, it dated him for three years. And then I met my husband, it's a little more complicated in this, but, you know, close enough. I met my husband and, um, Kism on a you strip on a mission trip and came back and told my boyfriend of three years that night. And for the next, like, two months was in this, you know, what am I going to do? Who am I going to choose kind of a thing? And I flat out asked both of them, can I date you both? And both of them flat out were like, that's not a thing. We can't. That's not a real thing. No, you can't do that. And, you know, they thought that I was like kind of like trying to cop out of the situation. Like, no, I mean, I would marry both of you today and feel okay about it as ridiculous as it seems, having just met somebody and as ridiculous as it seems, you know, marrying somebody that young or whatever, but like, I, I cannot imagine getting not being with this person. I'd been through three years of my life that was my family friend, you know, my family was friends with and friends with my sister and had been at holidays and stuff. And I loved so that I could be with this person who I just met. But oh, my gosh, is making me consider the fact that I maybe I don't want to date this person anymore that I love like that's pretty significant too. And so I, yeah, realizing that I like literally I was just reading this the other day because I kind of had reading back through some of my journals and literally in there it says, I mean, love with them both, though I'm not going to tell them that. And it's like, I mean, they had to have known, I don't know, I don't know, but I always felt like I was just being, you know, like a, like a sickle, you know, teenage girl. Like, oh my gosh, what was me? Who am I going to pick? Too many people like me, you know, and it just wasn't that's just not ever, not ever what it was. It was a very important people to me and I still, you know, however many years later, 22 years later or whatever, I was in love with my boyfriend of three years and I was in love with Liam. Yeah. Who is your husband? Yes. Who's my husband? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That paints a picture, right? For sure. Yeah. So, I mean, it's powerful, right, to be like, I don't want to choose, can I choose you both? And it's not even a cop out, it's just a, I think, I mean, this is a, again, not monogamy is not necessarily for everybody. But I hear, I hear stories like this and I'm like, but it is for some of us, right? Somebody who's sitting here going, I am deeply in love with two people or more than that. Like, why, why can I not be? And you're being flat out, told by both of them, nope, that's not real. Like it's crazy. Yeah. And it was, it was even being, like, it was even crazy people talking to me about how, if I, when I did have to choose between them because that was what had to happen, I guess, at the time, was that I, it was like, you okay, but I'm going to stay best friends. And they're like, no, you're not. You don't stay best friends with an ex, that doesn't happen. You're not, you shouldn't even be wanting to stay best friends with them. If you're saying best friends with them, then that's probably the person that you should chose. And it's, it's just such, it's a dichotomy that does not exist in my head. Like I cannot imagine loving somebody unless they did something gratuitous to me. I cannot imagine just being like, eh, three years, nice run, see ya, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I just, yeah, my heart goes out to that teenage jet, like, yeah, the hard position. And also like the two of them too, I know that like, they were also like 18 years old. Right. They're also teenagers and they're going by society and what people show us and tell us and like, it's, you know, it just sucks that, yeah, yeah, it just sucks. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So as we're learning about, as I'm learning about this, as I'm learning about nominee and polyamory and stuff, I'm really just into it because I'm interested in it. I'm interested in why I can't call people just my friends, why, you know, why I felt this way this whole time and other people think that I'm a weird, linguist nerd in a bad way because I can't just say what somebody is and so, you know, kind of deep learning about this, but also realizing that my husband is probably ace. So both of us, I didn't know this, I didn't know my husband was looking anything up, but both of us separate from each other, we're looking up. So what do we do if you're ace and alo, if you're asexual and not asexual, what do people in that situation do? Like come on internet. Here we go. And the internet says because really quick, because you're also, you're not in a place where you're like, we don't love each other. We, like everything besides that is seeming like good. Yeah. Yeah. Like, like, you know, we had, we have some religious differences now because we're both all in our weird journeys and, and I'm a bit co-dependent and he didn't stop me from being a bit co-dependent. So we're working on that too. But other than that, like really, we have kids, we parent well together. We do life well together. Like, there just wasn't anything else wrong and like, it got so bad for a while there with this being the thing that was wrong that was like, I wish something else was wrong. So there would be an easy decision here, you know, to make, but there's just not like, there's not, they just can't, can't imagine just giving up on all of the other awesome for this one specific issue. And so kind of lost my train of thought, I was kind of, you're both doing, you're both doing separate research. Oh, so we're both doing some research. So here's what the internet says, the internet almost exclusively and thankfully with you guys and other people are not doing this as much. The internet says two things. It says you get divorced or you open your marriage. That's it. Like, there is no other option the internet says and we're like, both of us separately later talked about it. We're like, really? Internet? Come on. Two things. That's it. I mean, you know, fast forward a little bit. What I learned from being with three separate therapists and talking about this is this psychological world also only thinks that there's two options to this and a lot of them think that opening your marriage is a bad idea and that you're just too scared to get divorced, but that you probably really should because things probably aren't as good as you're saying that they are. And that's me and my husband were never, ever going to get divorced. That wasn't just, I can't even describe how far from our minds. It was before this and then with this and the internet saying open marriage or divorce and me being like, I mean, I guess that means open marriage because that doesn't mean divorce. Why would I divorce him? That doesn't make any sense. And in my husband's mind reading it later on, he was like, well, I'm not opening my marriage. And I'm also not divorcing her so there has to be something else. So we got to figure it out. Well, so both of us having read that, like both of us are now in a panicky state on our own without knowing it about each other. And so things just were getting more and more tense because we were talking more about sex and he insisted he wasn't, you know, by label asexual, but he couldn't say what else it was and he didn't want to work on anything. He didn't want to read about it. He didn't want to go there before it. This other guy that was there before is out of the picture now. So it's just us not being okay. And one night, for some reason, we went out to Applebee's, you know, like you do in a small town. Big enough to have Applebee's. So we're not too small. Yeah. And it's because we had been arguing and we're not used to arguing and we didn't want to be around our kids arguing. We're like, let's go out to eat and we can talk about things. But at least we won't argue because that would be too embarrassing. Well, that's not a great idea because that is definitely kind of where it got headed. And just somehow, this is a blurry night for both of us, but somehow in the conversation, my husband just all of a sudden was like, you want to have sex with other people, don't you? And I'm like hesitating because the answer is like, no, that's never what I had thought about ever. But that's what the internet says that I have to do, I guess. So in my head, I have all these things going back and forth. And to him, he hears long pause after you want to have sex with other people, don't you? So I finally say kind of, but not exactly that I don't want to, but I think that maybe that's one of the only things that we're going to do. And he's like, so you do want to. And then we had another really, you know, that's one of those headspinning. You can't hear anything anybody says after that because he thinks that his wife wants to go have sex with other people and has an assumed that I had somebody in mind. And said something that he's never said to me ever, which is, it wasn't exactly over my dead body. But it was like, oh, he just said flat out that will never happen. And so in my mind with that or divorce, that means divorce. So now I'm distraught because he never, well, he never says things that directly. He doesn't tell me what to do. We have conversations and for him to say that will never happen. Like that was my only hope was that that would happen and would somehow, it would somehow help because I didn't know, yeah, what else to do. So that was, yeah, big, big change in our existence. And there's been a very hard night to come back from. That's a huge. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's just, it's so hard that you're both sitting here looking at two choices, right? For both of you, they're very clear, there's either this or this. And if it's not this, then it's that and, and both are scary and shit for both of you. So like what? And so unknown. Oh, my God. My heart goes off to both of you in this. I, I don't think I'm ever eaten in an Applebee's again. I know, right? Well, we, we, uh, we ended up having other, other significant conversations that Apple me's to, though, yeah. So basically right after that, we started it because he had gone to therapy with me with my therapist before a couple of times and then, you know, good enough, this is how I'm going to think of it. Fine. Well, we started with a new person pretty much right after that. It took a while to get in. It takes a while to get in anywhere here. We just don't have a lot of people. And so this is the person from the, like the area mental health agency, you know, because this is the only person that we can get in with. So this is a person who is perfectly wonderful human being, but she's from this part of the country. Uh, I don't know what her political beliefs are. She's, you know, theoretically more open-minded than some of the other ones whose bios we read. But she's not, she's not trained in this. Right. Right. She's not trained in, she doesn't know about people not being interested in sex and it not being a medical condition, like that's everybody's everybody's first and insistent question was, is there something medically wrong? Has he actually been checked? Has his testosterone level been checked? And we had no reason to think that that was an issue from any other symptom at all. Like this is how he's always been. It's not like there was a sudden change, you know, this is just how he's always been, but everybody just, just you need to get that checked. Cause that's what causes it a lot of times is what they would say. And finally, he just did to just shut everybody else up because they just wouldn't move on. They just kept insisting. And he's fine. Like he's all of his levels are fine because people are just like, this is just an orientation that people have. It doesn't mean something's medically wrong. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I'm sorry you went through all of that too, like that's, that's not easy at all. Well, and in all of this too, Judd, I mean, right, it sounds like the focus for, for you to was really just around the issue of sex, right? We, you know, he, he is most likely towards the asexual end of the spectrum, and you are not. But it seems like in all of this, it got lost a little bit that, you know, the other part of that book was, you felt like polyamory was you, right? Did I fall in love like this? I love big or I have these big emotions. So it seems like in all of this, that was not even part of your, like you said, you're even at Apple because the first night, you're like, no, I wasn't saying I wanted to have sexual people, but I guess that's what I have to do. But it seems, it just seems like that wasn't even part of the conversation. It was just around, he may be asexual, what do we do with that? Mm-hmm. Well, and I think, I mean, like, so in, in, in my mind, they were pretty separate. And his mind, he thought that, I think he thought that I was interested in the study of polyamory because of the sexual possibility, right? Which doesn't sound like me like, like, you know, five years ago, my husband would not have, if you said, you're going to think this in a couple of years, he would have said, yeah, right? But just circumstances, just made that, made that be the way that he was thinking. But I know it was still, it was a little bit in the conversation still. I mean, but he's thinking, you know, he's thinking, aha, see, you do want to have sex with other people. And he's thinking, you did want to have sex with Dom back when he was here, didn't you? Yeah. You know, he's thinking, see, that was really what was going on. You really would be okay with it. You said you would never, but you're in, like, no, I really wouldn't have ever been. And I am thinking about it now. And if he was here, maybe it would be a different process now, but it wasn't then. And, but even that night and Applebee, so then we finally went out to the car. He's like, this is really uncomfortable. Can we go out where people aren't around us and was like, okay, and I came back around to polyamory. I was like, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about wanting to have sex with other people with that. That's, it's a separate thing. I might, this might be an actual option, because I think I am polyamorous that I could maybe be like this. Like, I think it could be an option for us that could work because of that. But there's this song by, I think you say her name, Carcy Blanton. And it's called Loven is Easy. And I was like, it's, I was saying to him, I was like, it's like the song. It's like, Loven is easy, taking a breath, do it all day till the day of my death. And, and he's like, no, I know that that's, I know that that song is like, that's why I loved it at first. And that's why I haven't listened to it for the last however many months. Like I don't listen to it anymore. It makes me so sad because I know that's you. I know that that's how you are. And like, oh, because that's, I love that about me. Yeah. Yeah. So that was really, that was really sad. And it did. It just, it was all just entangled. And, you know, once, you know, once we talked about an open relationship and paired polyamory with it, like those things never really were able to be taken apart again. I think it kind of just connected in his mind. And so after a couple of very unsuccessful therapy visits where the lady, she took so many notes, like, I think she was going to write a book about me and my husband, like, she just like, she was, she was like, oh, my God. And you guys have such good communication. This is, this is really good. People usually don't come in and are able to talk about this is just writing stuff. And, oh, my gosh, it just, we were just two hours, you know, an hour or whatever, to have a conversation. And that's what we started thinking of it as well. At least we can have a conversation for an hour without our children being around having to hear and see me with my crying face on afterwards and stuff. So we did that. And one night it was finally just fine. If you think that you, that having sex with other people is going to fix it fine. Do what you want. Don't tell me about it. Ask me for permission, but do whatever you do whatever you want. And you know, it was in the heat of the moment. So I'm like, well, I'm not going to, I'm not just going to do something right now. But we had that conversation and that kept coming up that sentiment and kept saying that multiple times. Yeah. Like not, not just like in one night, but like over a couple of conversations, if I can do whatever you want, don't ask me and don't tell me about it and don't ask me for permission. And so eventually after failed therapies and midnight's talking about this, I was like, I don't think that you're, you're real about this. And he's like, no, I'm real. I think this is the thing. Do whatever, figure it out. And so I was like, okay. And don't tell you about it. He's like, do not tell me about it. And I was like, okay. And so now I'm a, you know, purity, culture, raised person who's been married for 20 years and only did one other person and I'm supposed to go find somebody, I guess in my small town or maybe online, which is not a thing that I ever did, because I was too young for online, too young for online dating to be a thing or too old for online dating to be a thing, whichever way that goes. Yeah, dating, online dating had never been a part of my life. That was something that really dangerous people did met on some weird, you know, Yahoo chat. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And moved across the country only to find that it was somebody else. Yeah. So that was never a thing. So I had another male friend that had been a male friend of mine that I had worked with. We hadn't been as close, but we played hockey together. And so we kind of had always seen each other and then kind of thought more about the fact that we worked together and had been hanging out. I'm just as some of my other friends had moved the way I actually had a friend die. And so he kind of like became closer because there was less people that were around, around me and he ended up being there one day when before a lot of the specifics of happened. It was just a really hard day and it was the end of an in-service day because we're in education. And I was just so sad and one of my other friends is like, you need a drink and I didn't start drinking until I was 35. I was like, you know what, yeah, I do need a drink and the person who suggested it doesn't drink at all. And my friend, Brad, like just then walked around the corner and I'm like, Brad, you you'll go with me to get a drink, right? And he's like, sure, I'm like, good, I'll tell you about it later, you know, like see my face is already in stuff. And I think my friend that suggested it got nervous because this is a male and so that friend went and actually got one of my good female friends and was like, you go with them too. So that she's not desperate going with this guy to get a drink. And so anyway, so my other friend, best, the girl that went with me, she's great and I could tell her anything and she'd already known about the asexuality and that kind of stuff. And so I just started talking to her like, like Brad wasn't even in the room poor Brad just listening to this stream of consciousness and tears and drinking and stuff and Brad doesn't drink either. He's just having to sit there awkwardly, but anyway, like he is super kind and super caring and had been around him and helpful with me at work and stuff and then kind of wasn't on that. And so had been just checking in, you know, how you doing and nothing more. And then one day it was like, well, interesting development. Remember how you pretended you weren't listening to that conversation that one day? And I know you were, well, turns out that I'm supposed to do whatever and not tell me about it and not ask him. And you know, then my friend Brad is around as a person that could maybe do whatever, maybe. And you know, he was very questioning, worried, like, but I'm like, no, I promise you. He says he doesn't want to know and he means he doesn't want to know. So yeah, any story about Nominogamy that goes with, I have a friend and the friend was there and that was handy that generally doesn't go very well and I knew it at the time too. But I really like Brad a lot. So yeah, so, so things. And then about two weeks later or so, we were sitting, me and my husband were sitting in Applebees and I said something, something came up and I said, well, remember because you said do whatever and he was like, I do whatever and don't tell anybody or don't tell me about it. And he was like, yeah, I've been thinking about that. I don't think I could do that. It's a good thing you haven't found anybody because I don't think that I could do that. I think that I would definitely need to know, yeah, oh, no, yeah. And I don't, I don't know how else to say this, but I don't lie, like I don't lie. And I was just silent with, oh my gosh, everything running through my brain because now this isn't just me, this isn't just me having to say that, well, it's too late. This is me knowing that my husband is going to press who it is, right? And yeah, my he had Brad had started like integrating with my friend group, which included my husband at this time, right? So like they were just at the beginning of maybe going to be friends, like probably would have said, yeah, we're friends, I guess, you know, at the time, but like, so I didn't say anything. And he just said it again. It's a really good thing. And I just didn't say anything. And then for about a week, just salt terrible, I don't, I don't lie, I don't omit things. I'm pretty up front. I admit mistakes, even when they're embarrassing, but this was like, I can't do this is going to, this is going to fuck with everything, like, this is this ruined everything. And so, but I had talked to Brad and was like, hey, here's what happened. He's like that sucks. And I'm like, I don't want to tell him it's not my, it's, you know, it's, it's, it's my story to tell, but it's also making me have to tell your story to tell, and I don't think that's fair. If you have to tell him, you have to tell him, it's your husband, like, if you end up deciding that, you know, that's fine, I might have to move. And he was serious. He might have to move because we live in small town. And we're in education and as our occupations. And he's like, but I moved before like, oh my gosh. So yeah, I decided that in one of our therapy that was just basically a talk session therapy, I was like, while we're here, I would like to bring something up while there's a third party present. And so I said, I guess I must have told him, I guess I must have told him that I had been with somebody, but I wouldn't tell him who and I wouldn't tell him who it wasn't either because then he'd be able to guess because there's so few people. So yes, so somewhere, like probably a week later, so I, he had, my husband had known that something was wrong. Like what you, you're not saying something, what are you not saying, I was like, you know me too well. You had told me do whatever. And so I did whatever. And so shocked, disgusted. And then he's like, who? And I'm like, you told me not to tell you, he said, I also told you that that wasn't going to work. And I was like, well, I only did it with the understanding that you would never want to know. So I don't think that's fair. And he's like, who cares what's fair, like I'm your husband. And so, but I was like, no, I'm not going to tell you who it is. And he started listing people and I'm like, I'm not going to tell you who it's not because that's going to eliminate, you know, enough people that you're going to be able to tell who it is. And so then that was a point of contention like, you've, you've had sex with somebody else ever. We had never had sex with other people other than each other, ever, right? And like, now I have, and he doesn't know who it is. And so, so, yeah, so one day in therapy, we were getting back around to that because she's not helping. So me and my husband are just literally like going around in circles, right? Like just going from one thing back to the other. And now here we are again at, I guess, do whatever because it's either have an open marriage or get divorced. So let's try the open marriage thing, you know, I guess. And I'm like, okay, but you know that that means that if we actually are doing this and trying this, that means that I'm probably going to go back with who I was with before because they're safe. And I know them already and I don't have an interest in just finding random people to have sex with. I, that's just not how I work. And so you understand this and he's like, I figured, and I'm like, okay, well, while the therapist is here, let's, let's all, while there's a third party watching. I want to tell you who it is. And so he's like, I know who it is. And I'm like, I know you know who it is. And the therapist was giggling. Like was so delighted that we both knew each other so well that we're just like, yeah, you already knew. I know you already knew. Dang it. Yeah. And so I was like, yeah, it's Brad and he's like. And so we, we had been playing me and my husband and Brad and a couple of other people have been playing Dungeons and Dragons together, which we all started playing as adults. So that was our thing that we've been doing. And the first thing my husband says is, well, he can't play D&D with us anymore. And I was like, I figured, but that did not go well. And he just has never like, it just hates Brad with a passion still two years later, feels like there was some that that Brad had an ulterior motive that either Brad was after me the whole time or that I had Brad in mind before, you know, when before all of this started. And that this was the person that I was actually angling for the whole time. And yeah, so that was, that was the, the induction into actually practicing some nonmenugamy there for a bit. Yeah. I mean, I just, I feel for both of you so much for like the, and for Brad, like the all of you in that situation, like, what you're up against the, just, yeah, that's just shitty. Yeah. Yep. Yep. Um, yeah. And so we just like, so yeah, this was the, I guess this is what we're going to have to try. And so, um, we tried it for a while and I was very, very, very happy and also very, very, very not happy at the same time. This is after. So you started doing, you started doing some nonmenugamy, like with, with, like, with telling him everything. Yeah. Yeah. So he knew about it and it was, you know, just really stumbling through. So I'm going to go see him and my husband just being like, it's just go, just go. And then all of the things that you can imagine, like, I mean, people that go into nonmenugamy both wanting to try it out, have the problems of, you know, and then you come back at the end of the day and how are you supposed to be together like after that? What are you supposed to do knowing that they were just with somebody else and, and he isn't interested in doing this for himself and he isn't interested in knowing anything about what I'm doing. And he wishes that he didn't know anything at all, but knows that that doesn't work. And so it was just, it was at, at home, it was miserable except when we, and when, um, he could forget for a while and which just made me, made me have to, I'm, I feel like I had to be, I didn't have to be, but I feel like I had to be like to omit things to, to give less detail to, you know, um, to say, um, I'm going to go out to eat with him now and not not say, you know, but, um, and it just felt, it just felt shitty and he just, he was, my husband was just in pain, like just so much of the time. But then also, like it was all the things that my, my polyamorous brain loved. I got to be around my friend. I got to be sexual, which I hadn't gotten to be. I was getting appreciated physically, you know, um, I got all the, you know, all the NRE, but even better than that because it wasn't like all the way new. It was just like new interactions, um, and a new way of being and it felt safe. And this is a new person? No, this is still Brad. Oh, this is Brad. We just were back with Brad and, you know, my husband preferred. He wished that it was a new person. He's like, I don't know why you can't just not and then go find somebody else. And I'm like, go find somebody else. That's not how he or I work. Like my husband, either like, like to my husband, that would sound kind of gross. And I'm like, why are you suggesting that for me if that if you wouldn't want to just go find somebody, which I mean, I mean, hey, just going and finding somebody also kind of sounds fun. A little bit, but, but if it's not you and if it's not right. Yeah, and it's not what you're wanting or needing or you're at, right? It's yeah, yeah, yeah. And like, yeah, I wouldn't you, I know I'm safe, you know, and I know, I know that I'm protected. And I know that even if something doesn't work out that it's not going to be, I just, it just was so much more known and just felt so much more, more good. And then that's kind of where I was figuring out that I'm pretty dimmy. Is that the really, it wasn't anybody else that I could even imagine being with like, is yeah, meeting somebody was like, yeah, but I don't, I wouldn't just want to have sex with him right away. Like I'm not, I'm not really attracted to anybody right away, like at all. And so I couldn't even, I just couldn't, I couldn't picture even how that would work for me exactly. Like, and so, yeah, so, I mean, that's what, like I said, being this would mean that I'd probably be going back with Brad and he was like, well, we don't know what else to do and we're not getting divorced. So try it out. Yeah. So you did that for a little bit and you like at that time you were feeling both like really great in the new connection in that, but it felt comfortable and it felt like you were exploring your sexuality and like being sexual with him in a different way and being appreciated for that. And then at the same time miserable because you want to be with your husband and this is causing him a lot of pain and you're trying to navigate it and it sounds, sounds really difficult. Yeah. Yeah. There was also, I don't remember in the timeline where this was, but there was definitely also a, if you're having sex with other people, we're not having sex at all, which when I've told the couple of people I've told them that, they're like, but why do you care? He's a sexual anyway. Like, what does it matter? I'm like, we still have sex sometimes. It was just less than, you know, once every two months or so or around once every two months. So like, we still like had it as a thing. Like, it wasn't just, it's just not just okay for it. Just be gone. Like, that's my, that's our whole marriage. Like, that's the only person I'd ever been with. Like, and so that was a significant thing too. Like, if you're with somebody else at all, then you're not with me like that. And, you know, we don't know how to be that way and we're talking about, does this going to mean that we shouldn't be sharing a bed together, you know? And if so, what does that look like? And what do we tell our kids? And, you know, maybe it would be better to live a part so that you don't know who's going and coming. And maybe we could stay married, but live a part so that you can kind of have, you know, your own life a little bit where it's not affecting the other one so much. And just like all these, just, and then like literally talking about, maybe we should rent the house for sale next door so that it can be good for our kit and just conversations that that we never planned on having. And that also the only thing that was wrong was this stuff. Everything else was so good still. And it was this stuff and it just seemed insurmountable. And yeah, it's just a lot. It is. And I'm just like, what? I don't know the right way if it's even a question, but it just comes to me that it doesn't sound like for the 18 years before this that you were moving through your relationship feeling like there's a huge lack and I'm missing things and this isn't good. Like you described it as a pretty good relationship. And then having maybe, you know, knowing in the back of your mind that maybe there was an imbalance and then you listen to this, you know, you listen to this book. And it sort of, it sounds like it just sort of opened you up to there's a different way, right? Like this isn't bad, but maybe there's something better for both of us, right? He doesn't have to feel the pressure, the, I need to have sex when I don't necessarily want to. Again, not that he's you know, repulsed by it or a verse to it, but just, and also then you're also learning that, wow, I love in this way or I have big feelings in this way. And so it just, it sticks out to me that you know, you didn't describe this unhappy relationship or marriage, but that you learned of some things that perhaps could help both of you be more you and that that sent you down this path that you're questioning like everything and that you, and that there's no tools and no resources that you're literally like, well, we either have to get divorced, we do this. Okay, what we're doing this, I guess we have to sleep in separate beds and we have to sleep in separate houses and just all of it just seems like it blew up in such a grandiose way. Yeah, it did. And that's, yeah, I mean, because it just, I don't know, just the way things are, sex is related to everything even though nobody talks about it. Like I don't know how it's both things at the same time. And like there were, there were the few people that I talked to are like, no, maybe you do need to get divorced sexes, that big of a deal. And I'm like, what? This is purity culture people too. What? Are you talking about telling me to get divorced over? Oh, right. Yeah, they're just, they're just, yeah, they're really, there was not, there wasn't resources for it. And so even though I was getting more into the, you know, nominogamy reading and listening to your podcast and stuff like that and simultaneously feeling less alone, but then also more alone because then people are saying, in the nominogamy world, if your monopoly, it doesn't work like almost by default. And saying if, if you're going to do polyamory, even if the other person doesn't, you know, isn't particularly interested, there needs to make sure that there's this clear, you know, this, this, this balance, which is, it, it makes sense that you want to have, you know, if, if you're being okay with me having this kind of freedom, then you, I need to have that for you too. But it was like, almost like that wasn't even enough, it was like, yeah, but can you really be practicing polyamory, you know, polyamory nominogamy, if the other one isn't at least theoretically doing it too? And it's, and he had no interest, like no interest in it. And kind of was a repulsed at the idea a little bit actually of that. Yeah. Well, and, and so where, where does this take you? You're kind of like doing it, but also it's, it's hurting, it sounds like it's hurting both of you, but also you're feeling like, maybe a little more yourself, but so I just, I keep, I feel for you, and I'm curious, where, where did this, where did you go from here? Well, just spoiler. It doesn't just magically get better. Unfortunately, I wish there was some, you know, if I was listening to me talk about this, I'd be like, all right, tell me the thing. What's the thing that you figured out? Finally, you know, to make it all work. And we didn't, we're, we're still married, and we're still happy most of the time. We're more happy than we were for longer, about some time. And all of that is wonderful and good. And, but we, we talk about marriage differently, and it still is, it still is not guarantee, like obviously it never is a guarantee, but like, it's still not a guarantee like it was for us. And there's a little bit. There's still a lot of, well, we'll see kind of stuff because what, so what ended up happening is with, with Brad and with nominogamy general, it was kind of off and on for a little bit. I, I don't know if this is a tangent or a significant detail or what, but one of the things that messed it up even further, I think we could have figured something out, by now that was a little bit better, but, and I'm not blaming it on you guys, but I definitely signed up for the in-person meetup in San Francisco and asked my husband to come with me because, I mean, coming on trips, holy crap, let's just go on a trip. And he's like, I don't want to be around, sorry, he calls you guys, those people. Sorry about that. I'm sure it's not the worst thing we've been called. So, and I can tell you it's not the worst thing we've been called to our face. So, he's like, I don't want to go and be on vacation and be around those people. And I was like, he's very introverted. Anyway, I'm pretty introverted myself, but compared to him, he thinks I'm an extrovert. So, he was like, no, I don't want to do that. And I'm like, no, just come with and like, I'll go do the things and I'll just do the couple of things that they have together. And then instead of hanging out with those people in between, I'll come home and hang with you and we can go walk around San Francisco. How cool would that be? And he's just like, no, absolutely not. And I'm like, okay, well, that's disappointing. Just so you know, I probably am for sure probably gonna go without you then. And he's like, okay, that's probably what you better plan on then. And then I was sad. And then I saw Brad the next day. And then Brad's like, I'll go with you. And I was like, what? And he's like, yeah. And I was like, he will. And he's like, you're not gonna make me talk to anybody. Are you? And I was like, no, he's like, you love he's sitting in the corner by myself. And I was like, sure. And I was like, but you would go with me to see them. And he's like, yeah, if I don't have to talk to them. And I was like, oh my gosh. And then in, yeah, another Arab judgment was like, yeah, this is, this is what we're gonna do. We're gonna, we're gonna, I'm going, I already said I was going, he knows that I'm going, my husband knows I'm going without him. Didn't ever say that I was going with Brad. Not great. Really not great. Shouldn't have gone. And then a couple days before my husband was like, I changed my mind. I'll go with you. And then like, I have, I have plain tickets with a person. I have, oh my god. And I just, I got so mad. I got so mad at the at just, there's been so much back and forth. And I did just so much. And I'm just like, freaking, no. Like I was excited to do this thing. I'm doing it on my own. It keeps being, you know, this isn't, this isn't ever going to happen. I'm not going to do this. This isn't going to happen. And this was like, I'm going to go, I'm going to be with somebody that is happy to be there to support me. And I'm going to meet all these cool people that I've been talking to online that have been so awesome and so understanding. And I'm going to feel like I belong somewhere for a little bit. I'm connected. And I'm going to be a Francisco. And it's going to be fantastic. And this is just what I'm going to do. And I'm going to do it with a person who wants to do with me. And like I said, I don't like. So this is like the biggest thing ever, um, next to the, uh, not telling my husband who I was having sex with. Yeah. Yeah. So I, you know, I was there. And I was, when I was head down time was definitely miserable thinking, what the fuck am I doing? You know, talking to my husband on the phone and having to think at all about who was around. And like, if I had video on and like, God, I don't do stuff like that. And so that sucked. But the rest of it was fantastic. I met you guys. I don't know if you remember, but I met you guys first in person, pole dancing. That's where I met you guys. It's fantastic. That's how we meet everybody for the first time. That would be fun. Yeah. I think you should. I think it's a good, I think it's a good screener. And, uh, you know, in a good, quick warmup, definitely just seeing everybody dangle off of things and swing around awkwardly. That was fantastic. Yeah. Because we did, we did open up that retreat with a pole dancing workshop. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. And Brad even did it with me. Yeah. That's how much he's there to support me, man. Yeah. We met Brad. We even talked to him, uh, contrary to popular belief that he was just in the corner the whole time. Uh, yeah. Um, that was my bad. I definitely, uh, he was like, before we went to that to eat out then, he said, don't leave me alone. And I said, okay, I won't leave you alone. And then immediately somebody in the community was like, oh my gosh, tell me all your story and pulled me over to another table. And like an hour and a half later, I'm like, oh my gosh, I have to go back. I haven't been with Brad like in so long. And I went back and found out I'm like, I'm so sorry I left you there. And he's like, just wide eyed, just, just not okay. He had good conversations, but he was not okay. He's like, you left me. I'm like, I'm so sorry. I feel so bad. Oh my gosh. Um, but yeah. So then, uh, yeah. So went home, drove home from, um, the airport that's, you know, four hours away from home in a winter blizzard. And just dropped Brad off briefly and went home right away to see my family. And I got there a so recharge. I was so happy like everything was just, it was so awesome to be there. I felt so good. I, you know, felt so alive. I was doing, you know, things for me and it was exciting. And, um, my husband was just not as excited as, uh, uh, I would have liked, but also just didn't even really seem happy that I was feeling good, like, not really in any way. And, and that's, that was so weird. And, um, a couple days later, he had said something about me prioritizing Brad over everybody else. And I'm like, what are you talking about? And he's like, um, yeah. So like, when you come back from a vacation that you stopped by and see him first before you see anybody else. I'm like, I've been on school trips and stuff too, you know, so I was like, what, what, when did I go see Brad first? I don't go see Brad first. I'm come see you guys. And he's like, you're saying that you didn't go home after you go back from that trip to San Francisco. You didn't come home and go see him first. And I was like, no, genuinely thinking, no, obviously I didn't go see him first. And he's like, yeah, I was tracking you because not like secret tracking, but like, I just had always had tracking on. I'm not a secretive person. Uh, and I went to see where you were because of the winter storm. And so you were going way slower. So I didn't know where you were. And I saw that you read his house. And instead of lying more, my brain was like, nope, just tell him what it was. And it was like, no, I didn't go see him first. I was dropping him off because he went with me. And then another head spitting moment where my husband's like, oh my god, you were just on a vacation with somebody. And I didn't know about it. And you didn't tell me about it. And you led me to believe that you were by yourself in a very gigantic city alone. And you were actually there with your boyfriend. Like, so that actually that moment caused more ruptures and anything else by far, by far, by far, by far. And like, and that's, I mean, still filling the effects of all of it, but very much filling the effects of that that Liam described it as like the last bit of magic going out of the world when that happened because I'm, I don't do that. I don't, I don't lie. I'm up front. You know, if nothing else, he knows that what I'm doing and what I'm saying is what's real, or at least real for me. And yeah. And so after that, he actually called me the next day during a school day, which doesn't happen very often and said he needed to talk to me and, you know, I could call him in between classes or whatever. And I was like, no, I'll talk to you now. If you need to talk to me now, I'll talk to you now and got somebody to cover my class and went outside and talk to him. And basically, he was like, well, you and me are done romantic lands, actually. I'm saying that. That's my limit. I'm not okay with that anymore. I'm still planning to be married to you. Get your romantic and sexual needs met, however, but it's not going to be with me and I don't know what else, but I feel good about this boundary wise, basically. And, and that is the way it's going to be. And he was like, you know, and how does that make you feel? I was like, terrible. And he's like, why? I would think it would make you feel good because we'd be done so you can do whatever. And I was like, do you remember that all of this started with I wanted to have more sex with you? Like, I wanted to be closer to you more often. Like, all of this started with that. And now we're at what we're done all the way, but we can still be married if you want, I guess, for now. And so that lasted for a long time. And I just, I had nothing to do, but I was like, fine, I'm going to hang on to a little bit of happy that I have because I ruined everything anyway. And ended up being with Brad for a little bit longer and told my husband, I was like, I know that this is this is your thing. And you said that we're done and that I'm supposed to get it met somewhere else. But you don't seem to be able to this, this, this, this is going to, this is destroying you. This isn't, this isn't just hurting in your, in your tolerating it, like you're enduring it and you're not going to be able to keep enduring it for much longer. And he's like, I don't know, maybe I will, maybe I won't. And I'm like, well, I can't, like, you have to let me know before it's the last straw. Like, I can't, I can't wait and know when it's too late. And, and then, you know, I need to know before it's too late. And he's like, I don't know when and I'm like, well, then I have to be done. And he's like, I'm not telling you, you have to do that. And I'm like, well, I can't solely destroy you forever. And so I went and talked to Brad and was like, the end, I guess. And he goes, do I still get to eat lunch with you sometimes? I was like, yeah, probably. And he's like, okay, then, okay. Because he's dorky like that. And he was more than that. But, but he, you know, he's in the shitty situation of being the other person, the non-established person, you know, he just gets jerked around with whatever is the, you know, and we did primary couples or whatever. But like, you know, married for 20 years. And so I guess I'm taking priority for that over over, I don't know, giving Brad a say in how he and I are or whatever is really sad. And I felt really shitty because he had gotten jerked around a lot in this whole thing. And my husband did not care that he was getting jerked around. To my husband, I feel like Brad is just like an extra, you know, in the movies, like, he's just this other person. And like, why is he getting the spotlight? He shouldn't be, you know, he's like an NPC, you know, like a non-player character in a game. And I'm like, no, he's an actual person. Like, he's one of the players. Like, and so anyway, but Brad just handled it with grace. And luckily, was still interested in being my friend. It has been not so much was wish that we weren't friends at all. And thinks it's really weird to be friends with your ex. And then also thinks it's gross that he has to say that his wife has an ex that's from when we were married. And so then he's gone back and forth a couple of times with, yeah, I think you need more sex than what I'm capable of having. And so maybe you better start looking for somebody else. And so I actually did get on apps for a little bit and tried to find somebody not in my town that wasn't ultra conservative. That was okay in a relationship that was basically don't ask don't tell, but he was going to know about it. But, you know, but no, you can't meet him and talk to him to make sure it's okay because he does not want to talk to you. And so but that only lasted long enough that I talked enough to people that I would have met one of them. I did go meet one couple actually in one of the faraway towns just met him in public to meet him for the first time. And then pretty quickly after that, my husband was like, yeah, I don't think that I can handle that either. And I was like, well, like I'm in a I was finally in a place where it was like I for some reason, just him okay now, like I tried to start to do more sexual stuff on my own because it was pretty clear that he wasn't going to be doing more, you know, he wasn't okay working on it. He wasn't it wasn't going to get more like it was I wasn't going to I didn't want him to force himself like that felt really gross to me, like especially growing up purity culture where we get told that you're not going to want to have sex as much as your husband is, but that's part of your duty as a wife, right? And so then me thinking and people would say that to you, right? Like, well, he's in a marriage. She should try harder to want to have sex with you, right? And it's like, that is so and when you turn it around and be like, yeah, you wouldn't tell the girl that and they're like, oh, that's true. I wouldn't tell the girl that. So why am I telling him that? And so I bet he, you know, he wishes that he could put effort into it, but he is he just can't it just doesn't have that part of his brain. It makes him so like physically uncomfortable to think about to talk about to try to figure out. We went back to, you know, being sexual basically about as often as we had been before. But basically, yeah, so I was working on myself. So I actually started like posting pictures online as a way to be more sexual and kind of have at least an outlet for part of that. And then I got toys had never had toys before. And none of it, not even in combination, none of it meets what I'm missing still. And so I still don't know what to do about that. Some people who sexual interest when they hit monopause, I'm rooting for that, which I know sounds terrible probably to a lot of people, but I really am because I very much love my husband and we have a very happy life. And I can't not care about sex all at the same time. And that's just kind of still how it is. But like I said, happier in between, by far, able to talk about a lot more stuff, a lot more calmly than we ever had been able to before. He still thinks that eventually there's going to be some sort of nomenogamy in our existence. We just know that or he just knows we just know that it can't ever be with Brad ever again. And actually, this is where I told you at the beginning that I had this other person partner kind of, well, so I had been able to share this with my mom, which is insane. I was not expecting to be able to share it with her. And then when I decided to, that was a big deal. And then when she was like, I said, what is she, what do you, so what do you think about all of it? And she goes, nothing really. What do you mean? And we're like, well, like, what do you think? And she goes, life is hard. And I was like, oh my gosh, my mommy, who grew up in churches, like, cool with the fact that I'm doing all of this and figuring this out. And that was pretty phenomenal. But my husband didn't talk to anybody. He did not have anybody. He felt like it was safe to talk to it all. So finally, actually, it was another person who played Dungeons and Dragons with. He was really, he was office mates with my husband. And they're pretty good friends. They never did anything outside of work in D&D, but they're really good friends. And this guy's wife wanted to be good friends with me too. And I was like, I mean, we can try to be good friends, like, we're all good girlfriend, like good, good best friends. But when I have friends, I talk to them about stuff. And they're gonna, and I told, I told, so this is Claire, Claire and Luke. So I told Luke, I was like, there's going to be stuff, though, that I'm going to talk to Claire about that. I don't know if you want to know about my husband. And he's like, well, I'm not worried about that. And I'm like, well, I mean, I'm not comfortable with you not knowing about it. I'd want you to know. And anyways, through some weird series of events, my husband actually agreed. And we went over one night to their house and just told them the whole story, like beginning to end. And yeah, you know, get to a stopping point. And they're like, yeah, we've had, we've had some of the same struggles, like what? And none of the non-minogamy stuff, but the, you know, big difference in sexual interest with them. And so they were very kind and commiserated. And then Claire was all excited because since I had talked about the stuff and our husbands were still friends that meant that we got to be friends. And so she told me, I don't remember, I think she told me that night because she also didn't know that I was, I don't think she knew that I was pansexual. And she's like, well, that's so interesting. They were just, they were just fascinated, both and were just fascinated. And like, you know, wanting to be, you know, empathetic and, and compassion, and also just, they were just so curious. And so Claire was like, actually, it turns out, I found out that about a year ago that, that I'm bisexual or maybe pansexual. And I was like, really? She's like, yeah, and so is he. Like, really? Okay. And she's like, yeah. And the reason that I figured it out is because I was at the makerspace watching you garden one day. And I was like, huh, maybe I'm bisexual. So that's interesting and a good connection. So yada yada yada. And now I'm sort of kind of dating her a little bit. And my husband's okay with it, even though it's a person we know that we're both friends with, but it's girl. And it's her, I don't know, he's just fine with it. He's like still not thrilled about it, but he's totally fine with it. So yeah. So yeah. So that's it. That's it. That's it. Man. I'm sorry. Could I, could I? I mean, truly though, I am so grateful for you to share your story. And I think just, you know, I love what your mom said to you. And I, and I think that was, that was a thought I had. I've probably about 20, 25 minutes ago when you were saying, you know, it, you know, there's not a magic answer. You're not about to drop the, and everything got perfect, right? You haven't landed there. And I think what came to mind for me was something that the Emma and I have honestly had to tell each other a whole lot over the last few years. And we've, we've set it on the show and we've heard other people say it, which is we, we wake up every day and we choose to be in this relationship. And I think that, to me, is one of the things, I mean, there's so many things that stuck out about your story and everything that you and your husband have, have gone through together. It literally together, right? And I think that just sticks out that every day you both woke up and chose each other. You chose your relationship and you chose to keep going. Even when it seemed like there's no possible way. And I think it just, it, I think sometimes one of the things in our relationships that keeps us together is tenacity and stubbornness and just not fucking giving up. And I love to hear, again, not that I wish hard shit upon anybody, but that you and he have gone on this for the last 20 years, but also the last two and are here where you're like, you know, and it's okay right now, right? And you're in a place of sort of things seem a little placid and a little just calm-ish and I don't know, I just, I'm just so grateful. I'm grateful that you shared and I'm grateful that you found something for you that feels a little better and you're just finding a little more rhythm together, but that it's not easy. I'm not glad that it's not easy, but you're honest about it, not being easy. And I know, I know without a doubt this was a really poignant, powerful conversation for a lot of people. Yes, I was going to say something similar. I've just like, there's so much, so many pieces in this that people listening, I would imagine, like they will relate to and I just appreciate you so much for sharing and I also love what your mom said too. Life is hard, being a human is hard, it's challenging, it's difficult, it's messy, it can like, we have to have grace for ourselves and others. And relationships are hard. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, thank you. Yeah. And thank you to to your husband as well, you know, for, I don't know, I just, I don't see, you know, there's not a bad guy in any of this, right? It's two, three, four, five people all trying to do life and it's hard. Yeah, yeah, I appreciate you guys letting me come on and tell my story and having this to begin with and having, normalizing, nominating me for me to find and to find people who are supportive even if they weren't going through exactly what I was going through at the time. It's still, yeah, really good to have community and I know that you guys are like 100% of why this exists and I don't know what I would, where I would be without having the community that you guys started. Well, thank you. And you're here and we're happy about it and thrilled about it. So, yeah. Thank you, Jett, for being here tonight, for sharing everything with us, for staying up late. People don't know this, but it's creeping up on midnight for you. So thank you. And is there anything else do you want to share out into the world before I do want to say it was so wonderful to meet you and brought to like that weekend just having you there and the enthusiasm excitement and I could, I could just send some like you're you're stepping in and doing something big for yourself and yeah, it just felt so like so good like it's hard. It's hard. It's hard to make big decisions for ourselves sometimes. So yeah, yeah, yeah, nope, just I mean, mainly just even if you think you're alone and you haven't heard of a story yet, you're not alone. I think that's a good thing to hold on to and that really everybody's situation is completely different and yeah, we're all just trying to figure it out. Whatever it is, whatever it is, whatever fans. Yeah. Well, once again, Jett, thank you. And you know, I don't know. I'm just I'm I'm really happy about this conversation. I'm glad we got to have this conversation. Yeah. Thank you. And with that, we'll let you have, we'll let you get some sleep. Yes. And we will, you know, we'll see you around the community and we'll talk soon. How do we? Great. Thank you. And we're back. Thank you so much, Jett, for coming on and sharing so vulnerable. We had a wonderful time talking with you and thank you again for being here. And thank you for being a part of our community. And yeah, as Emma said for sharing your story, we know this one is going to land really, really powerfully for so many people. So thank you. We also had a couple of upcoming events that we wanted to remind all of you about. First up, we are now including virtual workshops in our community. And you can come join us. May 8th for our next workshop. It'll be facilitated by Julie Hamilton. And it will be called befriending jealousy. So you can find out more over the community tab of our website. Yes. There's a new, there's a new web page that has all of our workshops on it coming up the rest of the year. And if you miss this one, you can get the recording recordings are available for all of our workshops for all of our community members. And we also have a virtual speed forning coming up on May 16th. Mark your calendars. Come join us for that. You do not need to be a member of our community. You just need to be open-minded and respectful. And we have some in-person events coming up too. That's right. We're not necessarily hosting them, but we're going to be there running some workshops. The first one is the weekend of May 23rd to the 26th. That's Memorial Day weekend. If you're here in the US, we'll be at the Bonobo retreat in Northern California. You can find out more in the podcast show notes there, direct links there. And then in June, we'll be back. That is June 12th to the 15th. Again, in Northern California, links are in the show notes. So please go check both of these out. We'd love to have you come join us. We'd love to see you there. They're a wonderful time. We're super excited to be back. And next week, we have a wonderful interview with Jenna Veeve. Oh my gosh, this one's super fun. It's chill. That joke will be funnier next week when you come back and listen. All right. I think that's it. That's it. Bye everyone. Thanks for listening.