Ep. 38 Designing at Scale: what it takes to shape products for millions

[MUSIC PLAYING] Hello, and welcome to the Revolut Insider Podcast. For we take a look at all things Revolut from the Inside Out, one episode at a time. I'm your host, Alex Carill, and joining me today are product designers, Margarita, Voltei Yul, and Lorenzo Mingleini. Hi, Alex, thanks for having us. Hello. Thank you so much for being here. As part designers, what do you do specifically at Revolut? So that's a very good question that I get asked very often. Our job, I think, is to make sure that our product and our apps are really simple to use and very delightful as well whenever possible. And more specifically, I work on the retail app on our core features. So think cards, payments. Yeah, and I oversee product design for Revolut Business. So we'll be the RVB to be offering. Nice. And what led you into the world of product design in the first place and FinTech specifically? Well, it was actually quite unexpected for me. I was really passionate about graphic design when it was younger. And I did study some coding when it was in high school. And so I did a bunch of graphic design stuff. Eventually, I did a course in Manchester, here in the UK, on graphic design. And I started my career through that. And then eventually, I got passionate about user problems, thinking more about the demographic, who we were sort of designing things for. And then that sort of led me to the world of UX, UI, and gradually throughout the year, it became a product designer. For me, I have to admit, this whole thing is very alien, because I was born and raised in the Azores Island. I love the ocean, the volcanoes, and cows. Cow's, yes. My dad's family has a dairy farm. My mom's an art teacher. So all of this is very foreign. But once we got internet at home, I started playing around with coding, and I had my space, Tumblr. And so I never thought that this was a real job, that you could actually get paid to do this. But eventually, when I moved to Lisbon, and found out that there's people that do this for a living, it all clicked and made sense. And for FinTech, specifically, it was a coincidence. I didn't know that I like it, but I've been here for a four and a half years, and I have to say that I really, really enjoy it. And it's a topic that is very dear to me. A lot of people, I think, don't realize that when we talk about product design, we're talking about building the financial features that people use when they log into the app. So what's something that you think the average person might not know about what it takes to design financial features? Well, that's a good question. Alex, what do you know about designing financial features, being an average consumer, I guess? Yeah. I would say I'm an average joke. I would say that you have to understand the customer really well in order to build something that they could use. And you had mentioned earlier making it simple and easy to use. So I think it's about finding a way to integrate tech in an easy to use way. Pretty much, yeah, I think that's-- I think that's how I'm going to summarize it. Yeah, I think you need to go quite deep on how sort of things work and function through systems, having a deep understanding of the underlying tech. Into understanding to build it or how the person's going to use it? Well, both. But I was referring more to the understanding that technological aspect of it. But of course, we are building for customers. So how do they use it and how we can simplify the technology for them and feel it effortless? The very good example of that is payments, for example. So the way that money moves from A to B varies a lot from country to country and all of the different country combinations. And as a product designer, our role is to, like you said, go really deep understand how that works. And then do some magic and hide all of that complexity. So that when users actually open the app, they see one screen and they have an estimate of when it's going to arrive and it looks super simple. It almost looks effortless. But there's so much effort that goes into it. That's the point, right? Making it look easy. And when you tap a couple of times, you can send this payment. Yes. And I would say that's true for all product design. By the way, I mean, that's a general core principle of product design. I simply find things for user. But I think when it comes to financial product, that aspect is very much at the core center. What's the design philosophy at Revolut? And how does that influence kind of everyday design decisions? We always place the user at the center. So design is a very important and a very public activity inside Revolut. We really want to make sure that the experience is well. And then we believe that everything else comes from that. That if you are delighted by the experience, customers will experiment with other products that we have. So user experience always at the center, everything we do. Couldn't agree more, actually. I think we really try to move rather quickly on the delivery and iterations and whatnot. And we try to take informed decisions from the business vision, as well as data. Of course, there is the whole part of user research and things like that. But in generally, I think we're skewed towards data centricity and try to move quickly. And this reminds me of our philosophy, this fail fast, learn fast. How does this idea factor into product design? The speed at which we work really reflects that. So we have weekly sprints. Every single week, we do a presentation on our work, which is really, really fast for product design world. And that does two things. So it allows us to learn very quickly from our mistakes, because we are testing out hypotheses after hypotheses. But also it puts everyone in a very pragmatic mindset, which I really enjoy. So there's no time to overcomplicate, overthink. You just go with the decision that is the simplest, the one that has the least amount of assumptions, the most logical one. You put it out, you learn from that, and then you iterate. Makes sense. Can you share a product or a feature that you've worked on that you've been especially proud of during your time at Revolut? For me, as definitely being RB5, that's a nickname. We call Revolut Business 5, which is the fifth version of Revolut Business as a product. We were able to sort of deliver a complete redesign with a lot of features packed in it in a very short amount of time. And I think I'm especially proud, just because, first of all, I've worked on it for a very extensive amount of time thinking about this, at least, and setting the direction. But also we were able to execute it with entire department really, really quickly. So it was just a joy to see everyone coming together and caring so much about this. And Margrita, how about you? I've been here for four and a half years, so I've worked on many, many different things. But I think one of the most impactful ones, especially because I did it very shortly after I joined, and I was still a mid-level designer, and I was, I don't know, 26, really young. My favorite at that time was cart personalization. So we worked on this feature where our customers can order physical carts, and they can personalize it. So they can draw on it. And to me, that was a very, very fun project, because right after we launched it, I would sit and look at the dashboards every day, and I would see the number of personalized carts going up. And then once it reached 1 million, I was like, yes. And also, of course, it's really great to go outside into the real world and see people with their customized cart. And I'm like, ah, I did that. That's really fun. There's been a number of other products that I worked on that I really enjoyed. I think Bezoom in Spain, Blake in Poland, to bring the light into banking. For me, it's really exciting. Because traditionally, it's quite a boring-- I mean, it's quite a boring area. And for me, for example, I lived in Germany a few years ago, and I remember vividly when I discovered taxfix, which is this app where you can file your taxes. And they make it super fun, because you just answer some questions. I remember being in the bathtub and hearing some questions. And then all of us-- Yeah, great way to do your taxes. And then all of a sudden, they say, oh, you can receive up to 1,000 euros. And I was like, oh, my god, this is the best thing ever. That's the magic of a product designer. So when you can take this really boring thing like filing your taxes, and you flip it around, and you make it into actually the lightful experience, I'm not just ordering my cart. I'm ordering a cart that is mine, and I drew on. I'm already my card. I'm ordering my favorite card. This is great. Also in payments, I think it's a really good example. You can just send money to someone, and that's a transaction, right? But with our payments, you can send gifts. You can send reactions. Yeah, it was going to say-- --chance, right? Yeah, it works on chat as well. So we really care about these wow moments for you that brings me a lot of joy. If I can make people's lives easier and bring a little bit of joy to their day, I think it's fantastic. I think that's a great approach to the work that you're doing. We know that you're making a difference, even if it's a little smile from a friend sending a gift to someone else. Definitely. How early-do product designers get involved with new features from the very beginning is combining product and design to be at the center of everything we do. And that I think also stands when it comes to processes in the sense that we often do sort of bounce ideas, assumptions, directions with product owners, which is our counterpart, I would say, or at least a role which we collaborate the most with. And so we get involved very early on, and that could be roadmap, it could be strategy, could be defining a feature, could be bouncing off ideas or assumptions. And we don't let it go in a sense until the very end. So we not only take part on the design, but is really throughout the entire journey, until the certain feature or implementation or anything that reaches the product. And we also take care of the QA, making sure that in the product is actually how we thought. about it, the logic works. So yeah, it's a very collaborative from very early on. And when you finally launch these new features like right before the customer is involved in using what you've designed, how do you feel? Product designers never have peace. This is something. Join today. Now because of the nature of the work, you're always iterating on top of your work, you're always looking and scanning for the flaws so that you can improve it. It's 99% of seeing flaws and attacking them. And then it's three seconds of, "Oh, it's live." But then it goes back to scanning for flaws. Of your own designs and your own solutions. Yeah, it's quite fascinating sort of process. And can you talk me through a typical design process from ideation until launch? I think I can start with the ideation part. And that's something that I particularly love about Revolute is that it doesn't matter at all where the idea comes from. If it's a good idea, we'll build it. It doesn't matter if it comes from the CEO, if it comes from user feedback, if it comes from a junior designer, if it's good, we'll build it and we'll allocate the resources for that. The levels, the different sort of, of course, seniorities and levels that are usually within the organization, they feel definitely like you can reach anyone, you can do anything, propose anything. So they're very empowering. When you have that open culture, I think it also inspires the actual creative aspect of it because there aren't any limits when you can involve everyone in the organization. And I think Revolute is also very fearless in that sense. No one's afraid to do something differently or to do something that has never been done before. In the markets we operate in. So I think there's a lot of openness. Being fearless and being that disruptors really what we're all about. And it's a lot of fun. How do you think collaboration as a product designer at Revolute is different from maybe a different company? Compared to other company or whenever I talk with other people and hear about their processes or how they work or what challenges they face at work, I think we are not so silent when it comes to the different roles. So when it comes to what sort of a certain role does, we are more open to sort of help each other out and contribute to the work that has been done or an idea that has been laid out or the goal when you're trying to achieve. So I think it's just the aspect of collaboration. It flows a bit better. So the idea could come from anywhere and you can add some things to it and keep going. So I think is that mindset. And I also had an interview with a product owner before, Franco. He mentioned as a product owner, you're working really close to a product designer. So how does that collaboration work when you're building something together? I think that's super important. I always love to see product designer, product owner duo's that work really really well. And I especially like to see when they are side to side discussing things on the same level. There is overlap between the two roles, right? So it's normal that we tend to collaborate with them more often than with other roles. But I also would want to bring it back to the fact that I mean, we are talking about product owners, but the same is true for engineers, right? Or data analysts or any other role in the company. So when it comes to maybe the face after designing and when it comes to building, we have that same spirit of collaboration with engineers. Of course, we don't end up picking up their work and as much. So a little more difficult. It's a bit more difficult. But even throughout the process, maybe there are ideas, maybe there are things that might not work as you expected. And so you kind of collaborate on what could be the solution. Well, actually, it's feasible. So again, the same principle applies to multiple interactions. I think being a product designer is all about asking the right questions. And you have to go to data analysts and ask the right questions. You have to go to product owners and engineers and to legal and compliance and ask the right questions. We receive a lot of inputs from a lot of different roles and our job really is to process that and then translate it into a user experience that is friendly. So I think collaboration is key. Yes. When you're talking about asking the right questions for each of you, what is the number one question that you ask yourself when building a product? Why do we need to spend time on this? Exactly. Maybe it's the question that comes up the most frequently, right? Because you only have a certain amount of capacity, a certain amount of time. And what's really important to find, what actually makes it and what doesn't. So when you think about roadmap, what is the team is going to focus on? Why is this top priority? Same as asking the right question. There are also so many things that are coming at you that ideas and stuff. Well, what do we need to do first and why? My design process is very much about subtraction rather than addition. I think it's very easy to add at things. The magic really is to know just how much to add to have a lot of impact, but still not have an app that is completely bloated. With my team, I'm always like, what can we remove? We have three sentences. Can it be one? We have three steps. Can it be two? How can we make it simpler? What if we remove the ability to personalize cards? That would be sad. Well, and then we're going to a quick break. And when we come back, I want to ask you both what it's like to design for a global app that has 50 million customers around the world. We'll be right back with more insider views. The Revolute Insider Podcast is brought to you by Revolute. Thank you to the 60 million plus customers who have joined us on our mission to revolutionize all things money. If you'd like to be part of the future of finance, check out our open opportunities at Revolute.com/careers. And we're back on the Revolute Insider Podcast. Here with product designer is Margarita Bultelio. Hello, hello. And Lorenzo Mengolini. Hello again. As you know, Revolute is changing the way that people do money. So how do you approach this responsibility and the impact when designing? It's a very big responsibility. I think money can very often be a very sensitive topic. And it's also a really important aspect of our customers daily lives. So it's a huge responsibility to handle that in a way that is respectful to that, right? And I think one of the big challenges is, of course, we are here in Canary Wharf in London. We work in tech. So I think whether we like it or not, we live in a little bit of a bubble. So for me, what's really, really important is to keep my perspective grounded and to keep in touch with reality of how life is outside of London and also because we operate in a very big number of countries, to have that understanding of the different ways that people perceive money in those different places. And for me, you achieve that in two different ways. So the first one is to have a diverse team. So have people that come from different backgrounds because that brings a lot of different perspectives and that makes the team richer and makes our solutions better in the end. The second thing that is really, really important is user research, getting out there and actually speaking to customers and getting their perspective. Because of course, me living here or the team being based in London or in Europe, we will not understand the perspective of a Brazilian customer naturally. So it's really important to have teams on site that give us these insights and this perspective as well so that we can incorporate that into the design process. When we talk about localization is not just about having the app or the products that we build in a different language with different payment methods and whatnot, but it's really about having someone on the ground that can give you the perspective you need to make the adjustments, taking a global product and creating a more localized approach to it. Yeah, we design things centrally with all the sort of variations and permutation of certain flow or a feature, but then when it comes to localization, there are certain aspects that we can identify and there are some that are coming us insights from the local teams. I mean, it sounds like it's a tough feat to have to think about all these things, just to design the functionality but also adapting to local market. Yeah. And are there any common misconceptions you think people have about product designers working in Fintech? Yeah, I think the misconception here is that if you are a product designer, you need to have a specific skill set in order to apply within the Fintech industry. Of course, you're going to develop different skill sets, but I don't want to make it sound like you need specific skills to enter or apply. Like there's a barrier to entry before you get into Fintech. Correct. I don't agree with that basically. On the other hand, I think there are skill sets that are required for different organizations. Persona don't think Revoot is for everybody. And I've been pretty honest about this one. I think we require a lot of different skills and attributes that are quite unique to Fint and hard to find. We expect people to perform in a certain way and to give 100%. And so that does not fit well with everybody and that's completely fine. So the conversation should be turned around skills for what you're trying to apply in terms of organization and what the organization requires rather than which industry which makes them need to be as relevant. So now that brings you to the next question is what skills do you think product designers need to work at Revoot? For me, I look for three things. So of course, this is on top of you being a good designer. A great designer. A great designer. Yes. So you have a great portfolio On top of that what I really look for is is excellent communication skills. Here at Revolut being a product designer is not just about doing flows on Figma. It's very much about going to other people, getting their buy-in, being able to communicate your ideas clearly. If someone can explain to me really complex things in two sentences, I'm like, "Yes, let's go." Because you're going to be communicating all day, every day, and that's really important to succeed here at Revolut. Second thing is pragmatism. I'm looking for a very pragmatic mind. We have a very fast design pace, so you need to be on that pragmatic mindset of making decisions fast, iterating fast, and being confident about them. And last but not least, ambition. I want to see that people are hungry and that they want to have impact. Revolut is a fantastic place. If you want to create products that millions of people will use and you want to have that impact, you want to have that visibility of your work, you need to want it, and I need to see in you that hunger. I think that's the key, right? You could have ambition, but you have to kind of show it. Show me that you want it. What about Yoloranzo? I'm completely aligned. Definitely, we expect those design skills to be very deep. You need to be able to produce work, which is great. But then there are a bunch of attributes that we expect, such as being motivated or being able to sustain the pace and things like that. I think that's more about the attributes of a certain person rather than the skill set. So it's really much of a combination. And now turn it back to you to, what are you most excited about when it comes to new trends in the industry? Well, I think there's an obvious candidate for this question. She thinks he's AI. Yes, absolutely. Clearly, the elephant in the room here. The whole industry not just us within Revolut, as a product designer. Everyone is really looking at this new technology, right? And trying to think about what changes we'll bring, how we'll impact the way we work. That's very much true for me as well. I'm constantly trying to not only keep up with what comes out, just to understand how could be beneficial to the work that we do, but a general trend, how people feel about it. And it's probably one of the most impactful technologies of the last few decades. And we just need to understand how to use it so that we can make better products, better experiences, better life for everyone. While at the same time minimizing the tool that has on the roles and positions out there. Maybe I'm naive, but I have a very optimistic view on it. It helps me do my job so much better. Like, it helps me every day, so I really enjoy it. And I cannot wait to be freed, especially from the very operational tasks that I hate doing, like documentation, for example. If we can have a take care of that low impact tasks, I would be really happy. So that we can then step back and actually do the thinking and go deep into problems and not spend time doing. Like the admin work, let's say. You could be more and be creative. The work, yeah. Yeah, which is a big part of being a product designer. I'm making sure you have proper documentation that everything that you do is organized. There's definitely challenges that will come to it. Or true. We'll need to adapt and change a lot of things. But yeah, I tend to have a very optimistic outlook on it. It's a good approach, I think. Yeah. For the future generation of product designers, what advice do you have for them? One thing that I really struggled in the beginning was ego. When I learned how to detach myself from my work, the feedback that people gave me worked much better. Because then I understood, okay, everyone's trying to build a fantastic product. This feedback that they're giving you goes towards that goal of building something that is fantastic. So just take it, iterate and go. Don't take it personally ever. I think that would have made my life easier. So for young designers, I would say, detach from your work. It's not about you. It's about building great things. Just focus on that. And what about for younger Margareta and younger Lorenzo? What would you have told yourselves when you're just starting out in your career? Enjoy their eyes and be patient. Things that have come your way, but they take more than we hope they will take. So try to get content by the fact that you're doing the best you can. I think not wanting things to quickly trust the process and live in the now. Yeah, enjoy it. For me, it would be to be even more ambitious and to be even more delusional. A little delusional is good. It's great. I think if you're able to drink big, great things can happen. And I think that's the right way to achieve big things. It's to be really, really ambitious. Now I know how to do that. I'm more comfortable in it. But when I first started, I was still a little rich. So I would just say believe that you can achieve great things and still eventually come. You had mentioned earlier about that motivation and showing that you want it. So I think it's that drive that inches you forward to take those bigger leaps. Yes. Well, thank you both so much for being on the show today. And give me a little insight into the world of product design here at Revolut. It's been a pleasure. Thank you. Thank you for having us. And for those tuning in, thank you so much for joining us today. You can follow us on YouTube or on Spotify. And see where we're up to on Instagram at Revolut Insider. Thanks for tuning in to the Revolut Insider podcast where we explore all things Revolut from the inside out. Until next time, remember, never settle because the sky is not the limit. It's just the beginning. Revolut. Change the way you money.