EP 32: David Stover - Not All Recycling Is Equal, Ft. Katie McConnell

My name is Larry Stafford and you're listening to Hell or High Water, the finnest-ed podcast exploring the depths of our oceans and the resilience of the human spirit. Welcome back to the show! Looking outside the studio window, safe to say Autumn has arrived, some early season knitwear making the appearance through the workshop and the additional layering coming out of hibernation which makes for a nice segue into this next episode of the podcast. This latest episode for you is an important and insightful conversation into the world of materials, manufacture, sustainability, conservation and circularity. Back at the end of July we sat down with David Stover, founder of Burreo and one of the driving forces behind a passionate group of people drawn together by a shared desire to protect our ocean. We first met David way back in 2015, having just opened our original London store. David wheeled in on one of their early prototype products, a cruiser skateboard made from recycled fishing nets. Conversations were had and relationships formed and we ended up stocking those skateboard for a few years in store. The initial idea from Burreo was simple. David and his co-founders Ben and Kevin were all surfers with a passion for the ocean and wanted to do something different. They saw their local beaches stream with plastic and decided to take to the sands and start cleaning up the material in the hope that could be used to create something useful. With Ben's professional background and sustainability and Kevin bringing expertise in mechanical engineering, it quickly became apparent that getting multiple different types of plastic from a beach and melting them down was not going to produce a viable end product. Focusing where they could make the most impact, fishing nets became the obvious answer. Discarding nets wreak havoc on ocean ecosystems, posing a danger to marine life and the material is consistent enough to be recycled in large quantities and produce a commercially viable feedstock that could be used in new products. Working closely with fisheries and fishing communities, the Burreo team went about beginning to set up the infrastructure to begin collecting and recycling nets. With its large fishing industry, Chile became the main base of operations for the company, initially collecting, cleaning and processing the nets to make skateboard decks. Fast forward to today and what started as a small, niche, Californian company making skateboards as bloomed into a global operation, making a serious impact in the world of sustainable fabrics. As part of this conversation, we also called on our newest ambassador Katie McConnell to join the conversation, giving her passion for cleaner seas and circularity. So let's get into it. Here's our latest episode of Heller Highwater with David Stover, the net plus story. Yeah, here with Katie McConnell, not Kirsty, I don't know why I called you Kirsty Elliott. I definitely didn't call you Kirsty Elliott. You definitely didn't. No. In your head you did. After yeah, as you said David, the euphoria of realising hand-deleted the last three days of podcasting. So yeah, I'm good now. I'm settled. I'll recaffinate soon, but settled. But yeah, this is great. That's up for now. We've obviously, yeah, where are we? Maybe, yeah. Katie, where are we? David. Yeah, this is Burreo's net collection facility in Oxnard, 10,000 square foot facility, pre-warmed today with the door shut for the party. It's probably, well, in America, reaching in the 80s here. I don't know what that is. It's Celsius, but pretty warm. But we collect nets at this facility from California and some other fisheries in the US. Yeah, it's been awesome. You gave us an amazing tour of not just what you can produce out of here, but the whole processing, like all the steps to take these nets and turn them into something new and usable. Yeah, it would have been great to get down to Chile and watch the full machine, where we have, you know, multiple machines and full team working on nets. But California is kind of like the little demo area where we can kind of work from here and have some of the products and capabilities and then have a small team collecting nets in the back and processing. And for us, being from the US, being able to support fisheries here in California and some of the programs to remove all gear from the local waters, like really means a lot as surfers and people that care about the ocean. Yeah, I mean, this is, as you say, it's a sample of kind of like the operations you have down south, but it's, I mean, it's, you can see from kind of like start and concept to end product what you do. So just to wind things back a second, Burreo, which obviously, I guess, is the flag ship to the initial concept and brand to what you have in that plus now. But Burreo has been running since 2013, you're saying. Obviously, you and I personally, cross paths, been probably 2014, in November of when, which is opened again, that store in London and you came wheeling in on one of your first concept boards. Cruiser boy. So you're 11 years in the making now. This is, that must have been quite the journey, particularly given the momentum around ocean, but also sustainability conversations, materials. This is your bread and butter now. Yeah, it's been quite a ride. I mean, we, I think, all envisioned it being what it was kind of like a small niche skateboard company in the beginning and kind of were blown away initially of just how many people like cared about making something differently and yeah, kind of like obviously we cared about the ocean, but had no idea at the time how many people would buy into that mission of wanting to keep a harmful material out of the water. That really catapulted it from, this was a cool project that probably would have been hobby and building boards in a garage for a number of years into, you know, maybe we can kind of tap into these bigger solutions to help out and really keep this material out of the ocean and then create a material that could replace virgin or new plastics and that that really has transformed into our bigger purpose is to like really go after kind of supply chains and help companies like Finasterre find a more responsible way to make products. What was the moment for you where you realized you wanted to do something like this? Was it quite organic or had you been sat down the drawing board gang I want to be, I want to innovate something here, I want to have an idea. Yeah, I think I was really fortunate, you know, as in my early 20s, I had a chance to live with Ben, a co-founder who had a kind of professional background and kind of a life journey and sustainability and the environment and like I grew up in a really special place in the US, I wouldn't consider myself an environmentalist, I didn't have a background in what was certainly happening to the planet, but he kind of opened my eyes to like there's a more responsible way to do things and at the time we both did what a lot of people do in the US go to college and then try to find a job after. For me like growing up in nature as a surfer, like I always felt out of place having to put on a suit and walk into an office and I never really fit in like I would take sick days and try to go surf somewhere and disappear and like forget that I was working in that world and so yeah it was really, I got to the wits end with that, was able to travel and surf through Australia and New Zealand and Indonesia like see a part of the world that I hadn't seen before and just decided like this is the time to do something different and like we just decided to walk away from the corporate world and at the time it was like more of a nonprofit career break type approach of like let's go clean some beaches, collect some nets, make a difference and then we'll figure out what goes from there I think in the beginning we definitely did an envision that it would turn into like a company that we would be working on and working with brands on building products it was like a very humble let's even do something positive for the ocean. I imagine you've had pulled a few sick days before for the surf Katie? Yes of course all the time to happen we all it's like part of the lifestyle. Yeah we still it's changing now with priorities and families and travel for work so it's harder to do but like like we had a quick surf last night and like my window is usually like five thirty to seven in the morning I try if there's waves around I'll try to get in the water from home and then travel it's always difficult now trying to make it work and balancing work but luckily we get to go to Chile and Ecuador and Mexico and Peru and if we're doing five days of you know plan work we always try to work in a day or two on the weekends that we can go find some waves and get in the water. We were off to Taiwan this weekend? Yeah I've been kind of on my personal journey like I was obviously working with Ben and Kevin and really close to the collection side of things in Chile and have really seen kind of the nuts and bolts of that operation and just where the companies evolved I worked much closer on kind of the integration of the material into the supply chain so in addition to working with brand partners I've gotten pretty involved with the supply chain partners a lot of that's happening in Vietnam Taiwan Japan so I spent a bunch of time traveling from California over to Asia I have been able to kind of surf with the surf community in Japan a bit the last two years which has been really cool I haven't surfed in Taiwan yet but hopefully in one of my next trips. Yeah. Right at the beginning did it start with you said that you know you took to the beaches you start cleaning up was it nets and fishing nets that was like first on the agenda rule yeah yeah I mean early on like we were pretty naive it was like and this is we still see this and we were talking about earlier today that like you know you see plastic and just assume we can collect it and melt it down and make stuff and that was like the approach let's take plastic from a beach cleanup and melt it down and start looking at products luckily Kevin who's a co-founder and he was working kind of an engineering and design so mechanical engineer background called out let's go to help it helped yeah I do too but I didn't work professionally in that so I rely on his expertise but he was like very level setting like you know if we want to make surfins or we want to make a skateboard it's not possible to go out and take you know hundreds of different compounds and material of different dyes different degradation that is that's just like a marketing project that people want to make you believe if we want to have a difference let's go find a material that isn't being collected that is a problem in the ocean that's consistent that we could actually collect and make products from and then we had talked to some nonprofits early on Marcus Erick's and at five gyres certainly surfrider even Noah here in the US big federal government focused agency focused on the ocean and a lot of the similarities there were you know suggestions to like work on cutting off plastic of the source it's very complex once it gets in the ocean we know where it's all coming from that was really grounding for us to be like super focused finding our own kind of open water to work on something in the beginning and that that's what led to pitching Chile on hey we'll come down and set up your first fishnet collection program this is how it's going to work we'll partner with fisheries and communities we're going to take that material collect it back clean it cut it process it and we're going to make skateboards like that was the simple idea to start so you've had a long love affair work and work and relationship with Chile by the sound of the new as well like okay to you when you're heading there tomorrow yeah may I speak a more about Chile on this trip than I have California I think but it's um tell me about the operations down there actually first of all maybe track back to what you do in way of um the process here so the net plus process yep um from kind of net interception yeah to product on the shelves yeah so you know when burreo started and we were making decks there was a lot of focus on product design who we were working with building molds marketing like a lot of small companies have to do that and you know kind of through that process like the kind of the common thread was people really supported our approach to collecting the waste back and we kind of started building knowledge and kind of unique expertise in the way that we you know worked with the fisheries the way we transported the way we had to process the material so we've definitely moved really far away we still like to be involved in the design process but as far as marketing material we're just supporting our brand partners in that and on our approach for net plus material which is now the branded ingredient net pluses kind of um the base material that we create from our process that is what's coming out of our collection systems and facilities and so those facilities are set up to provide a localized location where nets can be accumulated so in Chile we're kind of strategically located by a lot of major fishing ports those facilities anyone that's been to a merifer recycling facility where they're aggregating a lot of waste it looks like that um solely for fishing nets so we can handle truckloads of dirty nets coming in cutting tools industrial washing equipment shredders everything we need to do to take that net from like a really dirty sometimes smelly that's Katie found out earlier pile of net into a feedstock so something that you can pack into a shipping container and send to a facility and that's like our core responsibility is to you know manage the the people working at those facilities manage the transportation partner with the fisheries tell them about what we're doing getting them on board sometimes that means working with local governments or even kind of federal governments in the countries we work in uh and then really transforming that true waste into a feedstock that we can put into various products you know whether that's going into a jacket and working with partners who are specializing really world leaders in in yarn and fabric to surf in which is happening here in California with futures or I wear or or skateboards this is the base material net plus feedstock that we create from these facilities is the base material going into those products pretty there's a there's a lot of logistics involved this is net and a lot of people yeah this isn't just stuff comes in here you spin it out and then you wash your hands with it so to speak yeah I mean when we started like we were like we bought a used like little two door SUV in Chile and like three of us were driving on the fishing port and loading up with nets driving back to Santiago doing like trial recycling runs it was like very much like a cottage business um and kind of it's evolved we have 42 full-time employees a lot of most of them are working on the net collection operation side we own our facility in Chile it's 30,000 square feet pretty pretty large industrial space and yeah logistics is the name of the game you know we're figuring out how to capture the waste transform the waste and get it to the partners that will allow that to be kind of converted into a product a lot it's a lot it seems like Borreo has really pioneered a lot of kind of like the supply chain because your motto maybe you can talk a little bit about your motto of not all recycling is is equal yeah and maybe about the traceability of the materials that you're sourcing and converting and recycling yeah I mean I think that um we have a delicate relationship with recycling um you know it's it's often been touted as like saving the world and you know we kind of cringe at marketing campaigns with people are putting this forward as like the only solution for us recycling is like a part of the solution right you look at kind of consumption and natural materials and what we see especially with the nets is here's a harmful waste we want to one keep out of the ocean that's our mission is to keep this these nets out of the marine environment and the second bigger part of that mission now is to kind of replace um virgin material with that material and so our approach because it's so targeted on nets we really like to focus on kind of the communities that we work in the people that are employed to work on that and then really to track that material all the way from those communities to the products that it's going into and we have an advantage on traceability because we don't collect any other material so we don't we're not taking virgin material we're not taking like industrial scraps and mixing it in our whole program is built on nets so when we talk about traceability it's simply this is only fishing nets because that's all we're doing and then more detailed kind of like tracking that material from the locations that we collect putting it through so when a partner makes a jacket they can stand behind the claim that hey we know this was built from these nets and this is the impact that goes um and and the reason we like to say that not all recycling is equal is because there is other kind of convenient business solutions for materials that often get labeled as recycling but they skip through kind of like the people that are working on that the systems that they're trying to build and for us like we want to make a real positive impact on those places that we're working and really get our brands engaged with that impact down to those that community level and we just see that as being quite different than some of the larger kind of industrial focus where they're just aggregating maybe easily collected waste or other things and trying to tell people that there is a difference between some of this material and actually going into a community and building a supply chain and hiring people giving them jobs and really transforming something that was at risk in that specific environment I'm I'm I wanted to mention this earlier actually but I'm kind of reminded of the way because that is like you know that's grassroots as well that's community-led work and initiatives and employment and responsibility I guess at the end of the day do you know the guys over at um sungai watch some some bench give they do a load of stuff around um the collection I guess of like plastic waste in Indonesia yep and they've done a lot of stuff oh I do know a sungai yeah yeah I have heard of them yeah so collection I guess not at source but on route to yep the ocean they put those barriers and stuff and they you know I've seen recently they're doing a lot around trying to see where they where they turn that into a usable functional product that is um it's I guess the story they tell it's way more around that the collection thing and the empowering of community which you guys seem to have well under kind of yeah I think it's important like for us we look at it as like additionality you know like there's obviously like people like to spin stories on material because it's beneficial but if you're able to tell like like that like a wholesome story of like hey we identify these waste streams and we hire these people and we employ this it's just important that people understand that because the consumer or anyone in the public they get confused because there's just so many terms being thrown around even for us we have trouble sometimes reaching them um and so like simplifying that impact for them is really helpful and also like I say we can be cynical on recycling because like it is just one part of that solution and so even for us we say hey this is why we do it is why we collect nets that's all we collect this is why we think it's important to replace virgin material but even with our brand partners we're telling them you shouldn't just be looking at okay where can I put net plus into my line you should absolutely be looking at natural fibers at other materials that are going to be replacement going forward and it's a portfolio approach there's no single bullet like we we are really bad as a society of like grasping on to this idea that one thing can solve everything um but in reality like it is a much more complex system that we need to build to solve these challenges and it's the same for a lot of the challenges that are facing our time with climate change and other social issues that we see it's just it's really hard to pinpoint one thing even though we always like that and so we just see ourselves as like one kind of link in this chain that's needed uh on solutions yeah and I love how this journey kind of kicked off because you were a traveling young surfer and that inspired you to kind of take a different path and here we are now from then until now it seems as if the original vision has expanded and your capacity to you know create and source and uh what's like what does the future hold how has the vision evolved over time yeah it's been like honestly um like at the founder level for us the last several years like it's been a challenging tug of war of like are we going to be a small niche company that works on projects that we're really proud of or are we going to be a part of this movement that's going to have really big impact and and actually make a dent in this type of waste coming from fishing nets and really help an industry who's struggling to find you know um replacements for virgin plastics which are a big problem um and I think for us you know we definitely chose the latter at this point we just looked at it and said this is our legacy in time that we can convert a lot of these cool projects that we're really proud of with skateboards and sunglasses and surfins we can still have that be a part of the business but the potential here to look at making a measurable impact and making it just a part of the way the world operates to recycle nets not just in our program but in general going forward and scaling that really as big as we can go so the art like our first year when we were just making skateboards that was a couple tons of material a couple metric tons two three thousand tons so like you know the weight of a truck and last year we did about 1500 tons so you know like 80 full 40 foot shipping containers full of waste and so like our vision now is like how do we go from that 1500 tons you know to 10,000 tons then to 20,000 tons and really focused on scaling which is a hard thing to do in a responsible way so that we're continue to hire people locally we continue to open these facilities that can service the local community and that we align with brands that are committed you know to doing things the right way and so we're really matching that mission of wanting to scale and grow net collection with trying to find the solutions for the material to help partners make more responsible products yeah always boggles me and even just walking around this smaller facility how much net you guys are working with and how much net is in circulation is being used currently in the scene is floating around but hasn't managed to be collected and then it's still being manufactured for that original purpose that means that is that something that's still yeah I mean I can tell you that like an oh shit moment for us in the beginning was like even after we wrote the business plan had a product we were like what are we going to do when we run out of material like thinking we were going to go these fishing boards collect the waste once and then it'll be gone and like through the last 11 years not only like were we in person just seeing like mountains of waste everywhere we went and some of that was cleaning it up certainly on a one-time basis but now it's much more like turning through I mean the fishing industry alone puts in more than 600,000 more tons of new material every year so that's like every year they're introducing 600,000 tons at least of material into the environment not necessarily into the environment into deploying it in the systems that they're working on and so you look at like transportation everyone needs tires right now the tire industry I don't know how big that industry is but certainly everyone has seen piles of old tires or of themselves how to change tires on a car it's a consumable at that rate and fishing nets are the same way and so getting your head around the scale of like what 600,000 tons is for us is even hard because we're doing a thousand tons which means you know 600 times that every year is additional waste and it really it's like on one side it can be like oh we're only scratching the surface but on the other side you're like okay like this possible to really scale this and make an impact and I think that's that's kind of driven us also to look at the apparel industry because nylon is really a high-performance material it's an engineered material for jackets like whether that's insulated jacket or a waterproof jacket and the apparel industry needs more responsible resources you know for nylon which is the materially predominantly collect right now across the entire fiber industry so that's carpets clothing anywhere of that nylon is used 98% of it is virgin or new sources so they're extracting oil they're processing into petrochemicals and they're making virgin material for most of that industry now and so not just burrayo collecting material making net plus but like being a part of this whole system where people look at these materials as really a resource going forward to start reusing them at a much higher rate is something that we really want to be a catalyst for and want to be working with peers on that system because it will make a difference and and we kind of believe in that is there is there a world is there is there a utopian vision here where like you go we're not using that material in the ocean anymore our job is done when we want something else is it is that funny thing to even kind of comprehend I mean we talked about in the beginning we're like oh if if this works well and we're done and there's no more waste or I mean not to be dark but like if the whole fishing industry collapses and we got through eventually which honestly is very unlikely in our lifetime this is a model that we could replicate for another source of waste you know collecting and focusing and figuring out how to process it and the equipment needed to do that and it's very much something that we started to think about is even for waste coming from clothing because you know the fishing nets are a fabric a textile in the end and we're designing equipment and people to go through that textile and put it into a resource so we don't have any immediate plans but in the future that's something that like if we ever go beyond nets clothing is certainly a something that we think about is a needed obviously we need that solution as a world so then you then you're talking circularity that is and closing the loop and yeah is does that exist in the fishing industry yet and we haven't we seeing my fishing that's made from fishing that you know it's something that's talked about a lot and like quite honestly like price is a barrier for them there are already strain for resources and so the the process that we go through is inherently going to get to a material that's more expensive than virgin I'm actually very adamant and confrontational even with brands that are like when it's the same price as new plastic we can adopt this because my view especially when these technologies are earlier stage is that it's an unfair playing field like new plastic is so cheap to produce now there for various reasons there's oil subsidies there's other scale reasons why you can get to a really clean and useful plastic so much easier than you can recycle to regenerate source unfortunately for the fishing industry right now that's a barrier for them adopting recycled materials I do have hope in our lifetime for sure that the fishing industry will also be sourcing reclaimed materials and I don't think we'll never be able to get to one-to-one like all new products are made from recycled materials it's going to have to be a combination of just watching new plastic production go from the current level which is crazy it's like 300 million tons down by various percentages so that we can eventually get to some reduced number of new plastics in the system right now on the kind of pessimistic side that industry unfortunately hasn't started to take that approach they're still expanding and projecting to grow new plastic production which as a society we're committed to making recycling work doesn't make sense we live on a finite planet in order to kind of start going the other way they're going to have to make less new plastic and I do think we'll see that kind of peak plastic point that's talked about or peak oil point where we start to go from the current production levels and we start to crank that down and replace it with renewable energy as opposed to just using oil for our our transportation needs on the material side you'll start to see some bio materials certainly some recycled materials material replacements and then honestly just less consumption hopefully which is a trend that like we need as a planet yeah wouldn't it be I feel like it would just be such a smart investment for the large oil companies to also invest in like plastic recycling facilities and infrastructure like right yeah I am like less a part of like the political side of that I can say that it is another podcast but I can say in the past it's just it's a tough balance of knowing like what are they investing in because they believe it's the future and what are they investing in because it's a threat to their business I'd like to think that there are certainly companies out there that are looking at reclaim materials as a part of the future but it would be great to see them placing bigger bets on that I kind of see it as like a convenient solution that they like to talk about but on the side just continue to make as much plastic as they want and and I think the same could be said about kind of oil and the transportation industry like it would be great to see those companies who have a lot of resources say oh you know shit this isn't the way things are going to go going forward let's try to like accelerate the change to more responsible materials to alternative fuels and renewable energy quicker they certainly hold a lot of power I personally think that some of the movements and the regulation and countries coming together to place bands or restrictions I think that's going to have to increase like the companies need pressure because right now economically they just make too much money it's too profitable it's really hard to slow down that machine but that is what we need because I I think that like the true cost of what they're doing is not embedded in their business model so they're selling a product for a price that's inherently way too cheap it could never factor in the damage that's being done to the planet and when we start to realize that the true cost of those products are not going to make sense economically and we're going to have to focus on the alternatives we went in getting to talking about how you think we should start putting winterbines on these decommissioned rigs out in between the child and I mean you speak so well you know your trade here like it's it's it's pretty impressive you know it's from the policies to the people to the politi political side of things like this is something that is it something you've I mean it's a long old journey you've done this for 11 years now but this is looking back when you start things with a skateboard and you know a vision there you would you still call yourself a surfer you're a surfer scientist you're innovator you're you're the reluctant businessman yeah it's a good question you know I think I still associate as a surfer I mean like a lot of people in our company still surf we're still involved in projects there on a personal level for me that's that's been a really important part of my life and just like ocean lover in general like I think being able to like enjoy the natural environment drives most of our team so even people that we're working with in Ecuador and Chile and Peru if you're not a surfer they're they're divers or they're you know they're volunteering and marine rehabilitation or beach clean-ups like everyone is really passionate about that natural environment I think that like in a way like evolving from like a surfer to just trying to be like conscious of what's happening to the planet and really fortunate that that crosses over with our career and that like we can make a try to build a company in a way and and really an ecosystem that also creates a solution for the planet I think obviously the world needs more businesses like that we're not going to do it ourselves but like the reality that as consumers respond and you know their hard strings are pulled by a need not just for what we're doing you know whether it's a natural trail or the ocean or whatever aspect they're involved in if they're supporting companies that are making a difference that will change the world and I do think that like the next generation even more so than our generation I think we've taken a step from our parents generation to kind of recognize what's happening and want to make a difference and I'm really hopeful that that next generation is even putting a crater push on that in the way that companies are working in the way that the world is working so I know there's a lot of pressure and burden on their shoulders but I think that they they're kind of awakened to what's happening and like we can help empower them to kind of be the change couldn't I mean it working within this day we have 21 years kind of doing things challenging the status quo so to speak you know innovating best we can and making mistakes along the way no doubt what have been some of the biggest challenges or obstacles and hurdles you've kind of overcome over the years I mean we're still overcoming hurdles I mean any like as a part of like especially Katie mentioned like you know kind of like when you're working on new supply chains or forging a path inherently like there's just things that are difficult that no one's done before so when we started collecting fishing nets you know we had our challenges in the beginning just figuring out how to make a product out of it how to clean it enough how to get it to a form that we could just make a skateboard and like not even thinking about what was coming after that skateboard that was our sole focus not like how we're going to market it or sell it so that was like the initial challenge if I think about like that into our current business model that was you know the big one of the biggest challenges there is when we start filling up facilities with fishing nets and processing it we legally for some of the countries that we work with we weren't even able to move that material into those countries there was restrictions on the movement of waste or you know it wasn't classified no one knew how to call this clean feedstock of old fishing nets that we were making so we had to go and apply for you know even new H.S. codes for import or we had to apply for a specific import permits in a country and they had to go through an inspection to see what that was and that was just something we never thought about when we were making skateboards and then like yeah the human challenges of navigating certainly you know the pandemic and social unrest in the countries that we work in and shut downs and other things that we would never thought about 10 years ago that are just the reality of the modern world and something that we have to think about a lot running a company and I think very fortunate for us we've aligned with partners that have supported us along the way and you know have been willing to kind of work through those challenges with us and help us kind of carry through you know any great has oh yeah I think my whole face is turning white at this point but yeah I mean I think and I don't mean this in a way to discourage people it's more of a way to think about things early on so that we always say like if you would have mapped out the last 11 years in year one and you and I would have had to read through that or as a team we would have had to read through that it might have been a difficult decision to be like oh yeah let's press four this is cool like we want to be doing this but it's just when you're in the moment finding like what is the next kind of outcome we need you need to have a view of what the future is but like what is the challenge in front of you to get you to the next step and that was not I'd say on our side intentional in the beginning it was just our reality of like let's get to escape board let's work on the sunglass project let's open this facility in Peru let's start expanding you know and I think when you are able to kind of be a little bit blind and just look at what's coming next you as long as you continue to make progress you'll be able to like stay on the journey when you kind of step back and you're trying to digest everything and plan for everything that can happen it's almost too much like it would it's it's overbearing and like you may just have a reason to give up or be convinced there's too much risk and it's not worth it so yeah I think staying focused on those next little hurdles for us was key and has it been a you know the namesake for the podcast how the high water has there been a moment in time where you've gone you know what you know push comes to shove all things considered like we keep going at this thing yeah for sure I mean I think during the pandemic we had like an entire production season canceled and I think we all had the wrecking of like this could be it you know if the world stays this way and we can't get to our facility we couldn't even leave the U.S. at one point like we couldn't travel to where we need to be and you know we're going to run out of money and this this could be the end and I think we all reconciled with that that you know we've worked really hard and there were things that are inevitably out of your control I mean luckily we were aligned with partners that help us get through that and allowed us to kind of continue to grow but yeah it's something if you talk to I've talked to fair like surfboard builders you know apparel companies material companies anyone that's been anywhere long enough I don't know maybe longer than five years could tell you a story about we almost went under we almost this almost happened and then we came back come back stronger as well and you mentioned partners and of course you know just looking behind you essentially you know the rayo net plus showroom here and you know we're talking products from frisbee's to skate balls sunglasses to surfboard fins footwear the skate decks the original skate decks to the brims of caps you know and of course you need you can not mention the lights of Patagonia who are just down the road here who were you know integral I guess at the start of your journey yep how how how's it been evolving from you know humble origins of the rayo to work in with some of the biggest biggest labels in the world yeah I mean there's always luck involved like we got a cold email from Patagonia after our skateboard decks were launched and they said you know that the family is launching investment fund and they want to look at supporting environmental causes that are kind of near and dear to the heart and we got an opportunity with a smart team there that was working on innovation and I really think that like early on for us having a committed partner like that that knew that had a vision in the morals that aligned with us was very key to get it off the ground and very much now they're like okay go out to the world and scale this thing like it's not the best thing about is it's not close to heart for them it's like we helped develop this as a solution for the industry and now we want you guys to go beyond and scale this so for us like yeah certainly through the pandemic and kind of the trials and tribulations of growing a supply chain having their commitment to that was huge and now the next step is you know aligning with companies that you know expand that mission and expand those products and we can help bring kind of a responsible solution to the broader apparel industry and I think it is tricky for us like I mean the the community and the movement that Finister is building in the UK is like very unique right I mean like Finister is a it's a growing company and it's a very mission oriented company but if you look at the broader apparel industry unfortunately consumers are still supporting a lot of like really quick fashion and more more virgin materials and so like I'm really bullish and I'm a better that business models like finished Finister have to grow into the future as consumers and governments and everyone grows up to the idea that like we can't just have this extractive model we're extracting resources and putting into products as fast as we can and selling as much of them and like we hope to be a part of that change for specifically for nylon in that industry yeah there's definitely a shift in culture between short-term gains and long-term perspectives and and having that vision and so it's inspiring to hear how you guys you know went through so much but you always kind of had a light at the end of the tunnel guiding you yeah and I think you need that like I there's a philosopher spacing who it is I might even be British which is terrible Monbio George Monbio yeah yeah I think it's like an ounce of hope is worth a ton of despair like that like always ways on me it's like you can always look at everything like the world is burning and everything's falling down but you only need like a little bit or I'd say not just a little bit but a lot of little pieces all over the place of people that believe in like doing something different and that will have a change you know and I think that like I certainly think in the last 10 years watching the journey that we've been on and being a part of like seeing the impact of the nonprofits and the government support and companies coming out that are putting a stand and making a difference like that those flames have been lit and now it's just a matter of like making them grow brighter and brighter and kind of removing more of the the doom and gloom that inevitably is you know kind of cast in society to quote Monbio I might have got the quote wrong but no you could fact check that too headed back yeah I'm like hey David listen thanks so much for having us and showing us around and hopefully Kate to get the chance to see behind the curtain down in Chile in the coming months and yeah and you know from you know everyone up in a stair finally managed to bring something to life through the the Nimbus you know one of our favorite and kind of like most loved kind of products to get people out there and yeah this you know it's brilliant you know wish you and the team here every success and yeah to 11 more years yeah and thank you I mean we've been in touch obviously since we started I think you mentioned 2014 we were talking about skate decks and products that we were making and you know certainly to be able to kind of work on a project now a finistaire and have that being released to the public is I mean certainly a huge moment for us and really excited to see where that goes and also excited to have Katie on board and like we'll all live through her travels to Chile and chasing scary big waves that we're glad you're riding so we can we can see the photos yeah well thank you so much it's been so so cool to see the factory I've I've known about you guys since the skateboards and now my eyes are so open to all the things you're doing and it's just so inspiring to sit with you and hear your perspective and how you've grown and where oreo is going and excited to see all of the positive changes come out so thank you awesome what thanks for coming by hopefully you guys can go cool off in a specific way while I hope you enjoyed that one a much needed conversation to highlight and make digestible the often closed off discussions around material science and the human stories involved and that's exactly what this puts out the vast network of people and stakeholders involved in these supply chains the scientists the fishermen and women the surfers and the big businesses ever since those first skateboard prototypes were stocked in our London store we kept in touch and watched borayos journey with keen interest with our shared love of the ocean and a feeling of responsibility to protect it our own adoption of net plus was always just a matter of time we're proud to be introducing this innovative new yarn into our product range from autumn 2024 landing first with our signature nimbus jacket so for cooler seasons and cleaner seas head on over to finistair.com to check out the range for yourself a massive thanks to david and the borayo team and to kt for jumping in and lending a hand thanks to gareth and the team over at chatterbox audio for stitching the show together sound designed by cj mirror if you are listening via the usual podcast platforms subscribe to be the first to know about future episodes and until then happy hunting