Ep 31: Adam Rutstein - 'Talking about it was the thing that saved me'

Happy Friday, Talk to Ben Listeners and welcome to Episode 31. I hope you've had a lovely week. This week I speak to Adam Rothstein. Adam comes to talk to me about being bullied when he was younger and how this has affected his mental health and still does today. Adam also explains about moving to Switzerland and the difficulties he encountered. I hope you enjoy Episode 31. Welcome to Talk to Ben. My guest today is Adam Rothstein. He was a global programme manager for Outform. So welcome to the show Adam. Hey, how are you doing? I'm all good. How are you doing? Yeah, very good. Thank you. It's great to be here. And thank you for coming on. Thank you and I'm looking forward to our chat today. To start things, we're going to give you some quick fire questions. They are completely random. I warn you. Pop or rap? Pop. Facebook or Instagram? Instagram. What weird food combinations do you really enjoy? Ducatato with cheese, beans and tuna. So I feel that's a good combination, but I like that, so I don't know if it's that weird. Depends how you have it all compact together. Yes, it's true. Some people say when you mix the beans and the tuna, it doesn't quite work. That's where it all goes wrong, but I disagree. What movie can you watch over and over again without even getting tired of it? It's a really good one. I think I would say seven pounds. Oh, great film. I could watch it over and over again. Three people you'd like to interview or have it a dinner party with, but they could be dead or alive, they could be celebrity or not. If that's completely up to you, and why would you have those people? My first, I guess, is a couple, more so than actually one person, but it would be my father's parents. I never got to meet them. I would love to speak to them and find out more about their history, currently building a family tree. So there's a lot of questions that are unanswered because of the time of the years that they lived. So that would be really important to me, and I think important for my dad as well. Next person, I guess, would be Steve Jobs. Probably a popular one, but I worked for Apple for eight years. So I was very much in tune with the way that things worked. Then I think he would be a great person to talk to if he was still here today. Probably like the little bit, but I guess it's just that I'd love to be in a room with him and just hear him talk and fill the excitement for his products. The third person, I struggled for trying to think of who I would want to see or speak to. I think Justin Bieber recently, but there's a different reason to that. Okay, I'm interested in that one. That's not one I've heard before. I think, as of late, watching a lot of his YouTube series, finding out a bit about how he experiences mental health and also how he has gone through lockdown. And I think that was really, really interesting to see that side of him. And I know at the beginning, a lot of the time, you'd see this crazy pop star, you know, young, wild and free. But I think seeing another deeper side of him allowed me to connect and understand certain things and what it's like maybe for someone on the other spectrum. So having a deep conversation with him, I'd really like. I think it's really important, and he certainly see that a lot of celebrities that when he show that other side to them, the amount of respect you gain for them as well. It's just like us as well. It's like us as individuals, rather, if we're not famous, famous, we've all got this story. With them, they have to be glamorised more so because of where they are. So yeah, I would recommend it. I don't gain any credit for pushing you towards it. But I think it was definitely an eye-opening off. Let's start with your childhood. So growing up, what was life like growing up? Your family sets up any particular memory from your childhood as well. I grew up very well. Mum, dad, together, two older siblings, two sisters. I am the youngest. I was very lucky. I had a very close family, close-knit family, and we all very close together. Growing up, all like, you know, I don't actually have too many memories, which is sad of my childhood. I blocked a lot of that stuff out. I don't know why. I do remember glimpses of things if I really try and challenge and channel myself in looking for something. I'll get there. But actually, my childhood memory actually brings me to school, than anything, rather than actually being at home. I think school has always been something that, if I were to dream about it, it would be at school. And that's me as a child, which is really odd. I'm actually older in that dream. So I would say memories would be playing with close friends around my home. I can't depict really close memories if I try. There's only one, actually. I remember it was my birthday. I don't know. Maybe I was six or seven years old. I ran downstairs and I was always very excited about my birthday. My parents had laid out an action man on the floor. And I was just like, so excited. I just remember that. I loved to play a game called Jackie Chan on PlayStation. It was based on Jackie Chan. I didn't get it. I was really upset. And I went to sleep one night and my mum had placed the game underneath my pillow. So yeah, remember some good memories, some good gifts you got? Was school your, did you really enjoy the learning, or was it the social side that you really? I'd say looking back, it wasn't a fun memory. I was bullied quite badly. And I think that started kind of from a young age. I don't know why. I was very sensitive as a kid. I think growing around to older sisters, I was more sensitive towards girls at school. That would be classes like you're not a boy, not a lad. I would be able to talk and girls would be fond of me. But as a friend, but I just got bullied by some of the boys at school and that really had a big impact on me and growing up. Learning wise, I had no interest. But I do remember kind of trying to lock myself away at school and kind of stick to being a good boy. But I struggled quite a lot. I was called mischievous at times. I couldn't sit still. I was a fidgeter. Primary school was a challenge for me. And I remember that quite clearly. What would and if you go into the bullying, what was the type of bullying you received like? A lot of it was just being sensitive, weak. I got called gay quite a lot. At that age, no one really knew what that meant. I didn't know what it meant. I think it was kind of like saying you're not a boy. Or you're meant to be a lad. And I don't know how at that age, 10, 9, 8 years old, those words were being thrown around. And then I would go to like Bermitzers and kids with stick to hang on my chair. For reasons of just being probably weak. And I wasn't weak, I was just sensitive. And I wasn't like one of those people who'd fight back. I'd be the one that unfortunately, or so I say it was just a natural reaction. It's to cry and go to a parents. And I moved classes. Swapping classes was also something that was seen quite alien. At that age, like, oh, he's moved from the other class, why is he moved? Like, is everything all right? And you'd get asked those questions. But I was very unhappy. And I remember those things. And it's ingrained in me. Like, really like, I can remember it as if it was yesterday. Which is a shame because you said memories. What can you remember? Those things are quite vivid to me. Did that get worse in secondary school? Yes, finally, it just carried on. But it was different people. Year seven, JFS, I moved classes again because I was bullied. Again, it was just probably sensitivity. I can't remember like what it was that allowed it to happen. And what was the cause? But kids were just nasty. Kids just didn't realize what it was to say things, do things, pick on you, make you feel weak. That I took quite to heart. And maybe it was just because I was in tune with my emotional well-being that I responded that way. And yeah, again, I changed classes. And around like as year eight, year nine, kind of, I was okay. I don't remember being bullied or picked on again. I think it was everyone's stuff growing up a little bit. But I think I was still quite hurt from my experiences. Sure. I mean, I suppose at the time, we're very similar age at the time. Someone who was sensitive was seen as weak. I think nowadays, there was more terms talked about about being sensitive. It's more being praised than it was back then. And I think kids are, unfortunately, sometimes they can be looking for those easy targets. And unfortunately, that's how kids can sometimes be. They just, and it sometimes an insecurity in them. Yeah, agree. And you don't realize that when you grow up and then you start connecting what those feelings are. You notice those feelings, but with different experiences. So when you're bullied, you have this sense of insecurity. You then start to associate those feelings, which you're not being bullied by those people anymore. You're being bullied by yourself because you remember how that feels. And you associate it to that feeling. Just like when you hear a song, you associate that moment where you were listening to that song because it's like an attachment where they're good or bad. I mean, we're going to go into more detail of your mental health journey in the moment. But do you feel that some of those feelings you might have buried a little bit as you got older? I didn't really know what it was or why I felt that way. I just think it was my reaction to things. I didn't label it as anything. I just, that's how I felt. I remember turning 10 years old and crying my eyes out that I would never be a single digit anymore. That's crazy. I was probably scared of getting old and dying and I had this thing, I mean most kids do, but a scared of dying, parents dying. And I was just really low about being double digits. It was just like, I was turning 10 for God's sake, I was 90 or 100. It was like, I'm turning 10, but why I remember that and why I was so upset. There was true meaning to it and depth to that reasoning. But as a tenured, I shouldn't be thinking that deep. Your wife, Jemma, how's, how's do you guys mean? School, deafness, but we, I think our connection goes way back. There's a photo of us when we're at a four year old party and we didn't even realise we're at the same party. And I'm sitting on the right, I'm actually sitting on the left. And that photo is a good memory, but I don't remember it. We met at school, school bus, 688 or 628, depending on which one you got on. I remember this cute little thing, my eye caught hers and she caught mine. I think that's it, it's where it started. I was very lucky, she's two years below me at school. We only started noting her when I was in 6th form. So I wouldn't see her throughout the day unless I passed through at school through the outside of the 6th form area. So yeah, we met there and you know, it went from there. And that was like 14, 15 years ago. Lovely story of how you guys met and it's great that you've 14 years later, it's amazing. Well, they obviously were in this pandemic. How have you coped in general from the start of this? Are there things that have helped you during this time and things that haven't helped you so much? Yeah, so it's interesting because I always wanted to work from home in my job. And I know we'll talk about work a little bit, but I always thought this was the perfect opportunity to be able to do that. Enjoy and embrace it and being in my comfort zone. When we first found out we were going into lockdown, I think it was a weird, exciting time. It was kind of like a snow day at school where you would just kind of feel like, "Oh, I'm not going to go in today, but you could still work." But then that the anxiety kicked in. I started panicking, started thinking, "Oh my gosh, is it as really as bad as I say it is?" I just remember kind of flipping a little bit, started smoking marijuana. And I remember feeling a bit more like that needed to calm me down. And I was just going a bit to the other side. Like in a sense I was starting hallucinating, started seeing things, started thinking that Boris Johnson was going to die. It was mad because I think then I found out I also had COVID at the same time. So I only found out six weeks later when I had an antibody test that I had had COVID. I remember I had really bad since two days after my 30th birthday. So I just remember because that was a very clear, "Okay, I've had it." And smoking probably didn't help. But I felt like I wanted to share. I was really confident. And maybe that was just the smoking. But I was really confident to talk about what was going on and try to instill strength in people, not to be worried. But then after a while I obviously stopped smoking because I started doing it nearly every other day. Then I started becoming like I would say closed off, siloed, not wanting to talk to anybody, closing myself off to the world, and just sticking in my zone and working, working really, really hard. But just disconnected from everything and everyone. Social media, friends. So I know that it had a bit of an impact. And then usually I'm a bubbly person. I'm talkative. But I just wanted to completely cut off. I was at one point doing Instagram live stories about COVID and fear and anxiety and depression. And I was really open about it. And then I just switched. Like I just completely went the other way. So I would say it had weird effect on me. Right now I'm kind of accepting that we're in lockdown. I'm not really at anxious about being in lockdown anymore. I think I just have adapted. I started my new job on the 12th of March. The same day I got COVID. And the 18th of March, we locked down. Remember that week or thereabouts. Weird times. Indeed. I mean, it's very interesting to hear different emotions, different states of the way we're going through during this whole period. I'm sure lots of people have also gone through this up and down journey. I certainly can relate to some things of being quite open at the start and talking a lot. And obviously I was doing my podcast. I was a recently. I have also had a good period of being shot off. And not wanting to talk to people ignoring phone calls. So it's very interesting to hear someone gone through something very similar. Do your mental health journey. First of all, thank you for reaching out to me. And agreeing to do this and talk about your mental health. I think it's so great when people reach out to me and want to talk about it. And you know, this is a safe platform. So first of all, I'm going to start with. When was the first time you heard the term mental health? First time I, I guess I heard it was around my sister. My sister was working for a charity. She was working also on suicide helpline. She also works for a big global, an Australia mental health charity. I heard talk and her study around psychology, sociology. At the time when I was a bit younger, I heard her reference mental health. But again, it was, I needed to really understand what that meant. There's so much you associate mental health with that. When you don't really get it, you think you're crazy. There's something wrong with you. You associate someone strapped up. That's what I guess when I was younger, I thought mental health was. And that, you know, how wrong could I be? Yeah, of course. I mean, I think that's a match. I think it's very similar to what I thought was my time of mental health was. I think a lot of people were they first heard it. So then, towards me for your journey, when was the first time you started to feel that something wasn't quite right? So going back to like, I guess, childhood, I would say I noticed things weren't right. The way I responded, the way I reacted to situations, but I would never have labeled it as mental health. I remember seeing like a, I think it was a therapist or a counselor, you know, just like 15 or 16 and I didn't know why. Yeah, I was just talking about how I felt, probably about being bullied. And, you know, that was probably where it stemmed from. At that age, who was the one that was out used, wanted to talk to us out a suggestion from family? Family, yeah. They understood that I was really unhappy. And they were, you know, associating my own happiness with, I'm being bullied or I'm just feeling low. And feeling low was, can't be bothered. I don't want to do anything, no energy, no passion. I don't know what I want to do. And the general thing is why don't you talk to someone? That's how it stemmed is, you know, talking to someone. I've never had a consistent run of therapy or counseling. I guess I treat it, which I guess it's wrong looking at it, but there's no wrong, but I treat it like a band-aid. And it shouldn't be because it's, it's almost a scar that you just need to rub cream it every now and again. Whereas I treat it like I've hurt myself and I go see a doctor. And then I heal and then I don't need the doctor again. And I guess that's how I have treated my mental health over the years and not really stuck with it because it's something that's ongoing and constant. Sure. And so you obviously, at 15, 16, you start talking to a therapist about certain feelings and then how does that develop as you get older? I realized that a lot of my, I guess, stigma and also my mental health, I would say, is around work and career. And perception, I would say the time where I noticed most mental health is when I, I get stuck in a rut and my surname's ruciting. So it's, it's ironic, but I get stuck in a rut and I start to lose excitement for what I'm doing, whether it's work, I get bored very, very quickly. And I generally think that, oh, I've got a problem. Why can't I be happy? Why can't I just stick to one thing? When I was actually leaving Apple, I got head-hunted. I got head-hunted for a role to back up. That was a very big shift for me for perception-wise because I've gone from a company that's really loved to a company that people hate, or should I say the thought of it. I started there and realized how different it was. Started noticing me becoming more and happy, struggling, being overwhelmed, feeling like I couldn't do something. Every task was a problem. Everything was too big for me, shall I say. But I hadn't felt that way at Apple. So was it the job? Was it me? You asked loads of questions and you tried to dig in and figure it out. And everyone says, "With a new job, give it three months." You know, you see how you feel. I was just going home crying a lot. You know, my wife was saying, "What's the matter? You're not happy?" I'm like, "No, I'm not happy." But it got worse and worse and worse. I stopped eating properly and I went to a point where I'm going to hand in my notice. The very phrase that I always, you know, I guess it sticks with me is when someone says they believe in you, I handed my notice. I remember it three months. I said, "I'm not doing it anymore. Didn't have a job lined up. Have a mortgage to pay. I couldn't take it anymore." And that was the biggest, biggest risk. But my parents, my wife just didn't want to see me unhappy anymore. I think people take that now a bit more seriously is that it's not worth it. But you don't see it then and you make grass decisions, but you have to, you want to get out of that feeling, that feeling of loneliness. So, hell of my notice and I get a call on my way home from the director saying, please don't go. I believe in you. I see something special in you. Please don't go. I'm thinking I was like, I'm not going, I'm not doing it. I'm not going back to that office. He was like, take time off, take two weeks off and I just joined the company. Usually people would say, go, leave. He said, wait, take two weeks off, we'll pay you. I was like, okay, what have I got to lose? So, I did that and I'm behold, I actually got sent after that two weeks to Switzerland where their head office was. And a sense of excitement came back a purpose and, you know, I felt like I was alive again because I felt special. And I think that's what I relate to the mental health side is that I like to feel special. I think most people do. I ended up being in the worst place possible in Switzerland. I ended up moving my whole life there, literally becoming a full citizen, dropping everything in the UK, moving Gemma, myself, selling my flat and moving to Switzerland that four months later. At the time, you're thinking, what are you doing? I think it was something inside me that said, this could be your path, this is it. But Gem moved home maybe a couple of months after. I moved out there and I ended up having to stay there until I could get myself back home. I was the lowest I've ever been. And I think it was because I didn't enjoy the job after four months. Again, I got bored. I didn't feel excited. I wasn't my role started changing what they signed me up for. So my identity was stripped. I stripped it from myself and I felt like it was stripped from me. And I was alone. Had nobody, no friends, no close family. And I had a flat in Switzerland that I was all alone. One minute I had my wife, my fiance at the time, but she was there. And the next minute it's got, she's not there. She's at home and I've moved my life to Switzerland. What do you do? It was a horrible, horrible place. Times where I was alone and I would turn off my phone and people thought I'd take my life. Because I was isolated, I lost my confidence. I didn't know how I was going to get home. I didn't know what I was going to do when I got home. I got myself a flash car. You know, while I was there, I thought I was really big bollocks. I thought, you know, I'm on the Swiss salary and everyone thinks when you're in Switzerland, you know, Carplage A, but you get paid well, but living there is just as expensive as you think. I'm sitting there. And I said to myself, I've got to sell everything. Everything I've just bought four months ago, brand new. I've got to sell everything that I own. I've got to rent the flat because, you know, legal laws out in Switzerland. You can't leave within your first year unless you find someone. I was at the point where I was thinking about taking my own life. I was terrified because there was no way out in my mind. There was literally no way out because everything would have to start from scratch. So I guess that's where it really stem from and I think I'm still surviving through the after effects of that moment. Wow. Thank you. Thank you so much for sharing that. Really fascinating to hear, but really horrible to hear at the same time. Obviously you decided to you had to notice when you were here and then you get a call from the director to come out Switzerland. But what was it that you didn't enjoy and you thought was going to be different if you went to Switzerland? So how the company was set up is that you were more, every region had their own setup, but what they were trying to do in Switzerland is where the head office is and where global strategy is built and formed and they knew my experience from Apple and they realised that the tobacco company, but basically it was my and they tried to they wanted to open retail for Icos and Icos is heated tobacco which you know you may or may or not know of some people will do and they wanted to open retail stores to sell their new heated tobacco. And I was so excited to be at the core of that whereas where I was in London I was at kind of the receiving end of whatever was coming out of global. So I remember being asked to go there and suddenly I'm sitting in front of you know the some of the presidents of you know certain areas of retail because they realised oh my gosh this guy has come from like the biggest retailer in the world let's speak to him. But what happened was in those first three months is I was sapped of my knowledge as much as they took from me and that was that they kind of put me into another role which I didn't want to do. I worked with a guy there who was from Wales and luckily we connected on the same bandwidth but he soon left he'd been in the company ten years and I was lost I have nobody to connect with. I felt special at the beginning. I was put up in a five star hotel for four months expenses paid everything opposite the lake access to going skiing every weekend if I wanted to. I mean why would I say no what any who would say no at point. You're living like royalty. Yeah and you're giving the belief from the director himself but saying you know what I I see something special in you and like you said before when someone tells you see something special and it gives you a massive boost of ink you know what I can do this because someone has you believes in you. And it's a shame that we need the outside belief in ourselves from someone else rather than ourselves and I think I've got a lot to learn and I think a lot of people can learn from be careful when people say things because I took it quite literally and I put all my eggs in one basket. I'm moved country based on his saying or I believe in you because you suddenly think that your future is created based on that conversation and it might have been done but it didn't turn out that way in the end. Yeah and then talk to me about the certain conversations you would have had with your wife first of all moving there and then when she decides to move back talk to me about both for those situations. If you're moving now obviously again you're asking her to uproot her life for your career for a company that you originally said you didn't want to work for and then suddenly you're saying I got this new belief let's go to Switzerland. How did you come around to convince her to come with you? Well I think it's a very good point but I think we haven't got a family we didn't have too much risk although we had it on home. I felt that my salary and my package was going to be sufficient enough to protect her to do what she wanted and Switzerland which we found out later on was you know this split up of three languages German Italian French and we knew that was going to be a challenge. The company was going to support with lessons, with opportunities, sponsoring some money and it was such a good package that we said why not what have we got to leave if it doesn't work out we come home it is so easy I said I think she believed in me as well and she does still to this day but I think that shows the true testament of her love and care is that she trusted me and went with me and she's very family orientated and to take her and uproot her was a big risk. We always said you know it's only an hour and 20 minutes on the plane it's not far to go you know it's cheap flights so even if you wanted to go home you can but learn to hold finding a job is really challenging speaking the language was just not going to happen in such a short amount of time and she was unhappy she didn't have a job either so imagine I'm at work going to work regardless if I was happy or not I was still leaving her alone and coming home and she's unhappy so I'm unhappy she's unhappy but watching her go deeper into a you know it could have been a depression but it was also a state of fear for herself we had to make the decision I said you need to go home I had to do it I had to tell her go home you need to go home and be at home. So it came from you that's very interesting I suppose yeah I think about it she as well as I've heard that you've got your work but she hasn't got work she hasn't got a group of friends to you know hang on they're all in back in England so it must be incredibly difficult for her. I think there was a time that we set between ourselves and said you know let's give it a certain amount of time we were also getting married that year at the end of December and she moved home about March 8th. She moved out January and January I think March 8th, she moved back. I think there were always times where we said you know if it gets to a point where you really can't do this we're going to get you home and it was a lot easier for her to go home than it was for me not just because of the job but because of everything entailed with you know literally moving your life in terms of suppliers you've set up the flat the land or the legal side your past whereas her she literally could get on a flight and go home and stay home. All she had to do was hand in her identity card that allowed her to work and that was it. For her that freedom came quite quickly and the freedom was it allowing her to get out and go and not feel restricted and I'm so happy that she did at that time and it didn't get worse. relationship remained strong throughout when she was at home and that must be difficult for you. It was we'd been we'd been together a long time so we've been through a lot as it is and we we knew our relationship was very strong but I think with the time of the fact that we were getting married and I was in this state of mind was a huge huge thing and later on down the line there were times where we didn't think we were gonna get married. We we were gonna call it all off because of the way I was that my state of mind by the time I got home when she went I remember packing up her bags putting her I think on the train or whatever she would get the train and and I'm going home after work and no ones there. It's like we've broken up. She's moved out and she's she's left the country literally. I cried. I had no one. I didn't even have anyone to hug anyone speak to. I just you know I knew she was only you know gone to London but in my mind I'm still trapped. I'm still trapped in Switzerland and she's moved home and I knew it wasn't gonna be next week I would be living with her again. It was actually like three or four months where we probably only saw each other a handful of times and this was meant to be the most exciting a year of our lives together so yeah I got worse after she left which is an understandable looking back. Yeah and then I see you touched on it and you touched about some dark thoughts and thinking about taking your own life was that your lowest point? When you're alone and you you're going to a job that you don't enjoy your other half is moved home and you have to do all of the huge tasks in your mind. If you imagine you've just moved in and you've bought all the necessities you have to buy everything but you bought all the necessities are so far ahead a TV you've got your broadband set up and then now you've got to think of getting rid of that like it's like renting you know you rent a flat and you put your stuff in it you have to take your stuff out and don't forget I can't I couldn't even take it home with me because I would have to pay tax because Switzerland was obviously its own entity you I couldn't even send it home so I had to sell everything at a much cheaper rate and how am I going to sell something in a country where I can't speak the language I remember walking there was a beautiful route down to the lake and it was a very big bridge and there were times where I thought no one would know if I don't why would anyone know and I remember being really at that point and luckily speaking to my sister who you know has gone through experiences of talking to people in those take their minds and my dad my parents both of them were so supportive you know they were my dad was never oh you've got to push you got to push he was always like we'll get you home no matter what no matter what it takes and and that was my life line I was very fortunate some some kids some you know people my age don't have that a strong you know supportive network that can ultimately give you out of jet out of jail free card and that's how I felt I was in prison in my mind but also in a country that I wasn't familiar with yeah and when you got to that point there you started speaking to your sister how did you have the sort of the courage to talk to her about what was going on because I know that she's had those conversations before and if she would have heard it from me I think she knew how to actually study it she still does it to this day looks at lived experiences through people who've gone through any sort of mental health concern she didn't push things on me she just listened and I think that's the most important point about when you're going through something in your mind is that being told what to do doesn't help it's actually just someone listening because you're going to reject whatever anyone tells you to do whether that's oh you go out and go for a run or get on a bike or you know go and you know breathe from fresh air you're going to reject that because at that moment in time you don't know what is good for you and you have to find it yourself but the network around you isn't there to push you to do it it's there to just listen and suddenly when you've talked about it you breathe a bit more I think talking about it was was the thing that saved me having support network as well as someone around me but you you can really get lost in that space yeah for sure how did you eventually get out of Switzerland how did you eventually get yourself right I'm going home now I don't know in my mind looking back I can't believe I actually how I did it but I did it through will through I don't know because I remember listing everything on Facebook social media the apartment I ended up paying for that apartment three months after I got home because that was in the contract and it was not cheap I remember packing all my things organizing transport someone to pick up all my stuff one day and had to plan it effectively within my notice my notice period was two months during that time I even booked a trip for my dad's 70th surprise to Vegas we went and this was just after I handed in my notice because I said to myself I'm gonna hand in my notice and go to Vegas because you know that's a good place to set up right and be okay with it was actually the worst experience in Vegas I was with my dad my dad actually treated my mom and and Gemma in the end and we all went together and I noticed my mental health deteriorating even in a place where you'd expect you to be quite excited I was low I got up every morning with Gemma and I cried it was good to be with my family and they were just basically that saying to me enough is enough you do it and you do it in your own time but you've got to do it and went back to Switzerland which was also weird because everyone went back to London and I went back to Switzerland I started listing things I started selling things I started you know feeling a bit more like things are moving now things with disappearing I'd handed my notice so people were aware now that I'm going so I remember I sold about 30 different items all different things the last thing that was left was my mattress and a pillow and I slept on it that night and I remember it was the night before it was a Friday and I knew I booked my fly one way to Gatwick Gem didn't know I was coming home just yet she thought I was coming home the week after so I had to bring a surprise even as I was at my lowest and I remember like leaving that apartment and going right you know I even had to sell my goddamn winter tires and it was summer no one went winter tires in the summer but how I did it I don't know it came from somewhere and I'm sure you know we've all got that in a strength because if I you know if I did it I was able to get myself out but coming home still wasn't easy don't get me wrong because I had to reset I didn't have a job didn't have an apartment and I'm able to live I had to live in my in-laws in the end for a year I remember coming home and feeling the sense of am I going back but I knew I didn't have to think about it it brings me great relief that I'm here home now but the damage it kind of done mentally for my my health was probably something I'm dealing with today and still you know I'm stronger than then then definitely but I think I'm still carrying a lot of that weight with me and how do you cope with those feelings those thoughts that you have yeah I think look I have those thoughts all the time and you know I think it's still there and live and live with me I think how I do it is except sometimes I have thoughts where it's bullying myself saying I'm not good enough trying to be the best of the best I can't always be like that and I've read a lot one thing that changed my whole perception was watching Ted Talks on mental health and I think if you may have heard but Brenne Brown speaking encourage invulnerability and I actually watched that Ted Talk from her after my second hit replacement so I've been through through that ordeal but I sat because I didn't I couldn't do anything so I watched Ted Talks all day long rather than eating rubbish I just wanted to focus on something and it was about believing that vulnerable and being it's okay not to be okay was one of the biggest lessons I learned is that it's okay who is holding up this perfect human being where we have to compare ourselves to every day only us and we're painting that picture thinking that this is the we're taking and picking all the perfect bits of probably other book and painting that picture with it and saying back to where I should be but that's not true you you are the picture here I am I'm alive and I remember that it's so important now is that when you feel down or when you feel like you're struggling you just say okay I can talk about that let me talk about it with Jim let me talk about it with my mom let me talk about my dad and they're not gonna judge me because at the end of day they're the ones that they love you and they care for you so that's how I get through when I'm struggling is that knowing I've got a good support network I think if I didn't have that that would be really hard but I know there's loads of resources out there to help yourself I know obviously every situation is different every person approaches things differently but if you were to give some advice to someone who may be struggling very similarly to how you were what device be. As I said before, First of all, it's okay. It's okay how you're feeling right now. There is no one judging you and you have to talk to yourself as if you were a child. You know, you talk to yourself. How you should talk to yourself is how you would talk to your younger self when you're five or six. And listen to your thoughts. What is it that you're upset about? And then you realize, okay, how would you tell that to your five-year-old self? Because I noticed that that helped me because you realize how bad of a bully you are to yourself. You know, if you said to yourself, "Ah, am I rubbish?" Or this was "I good enough." Imagine telling that to your five-year-old self, you're not good enough. That'd be really upsetting and really hurtful. So why'd you say to yourself now? So my first thing would say is, it's okay. There's no problem. And then my second one would be, speak to the person who you would trust with anything, you know, whether it be a million pounds or you've just killed someone and you need to tell them, you need help burying them. That sort of person. Because that person accepts you for your bad, your times where you're at your lowest. And that's what you need. Is someone who can either say, "I'm just here to listen." And believe you me, I guess the one thing as well is it's asked people that you're not ready to hear advice. Be strong enough to say, you know, if you're talking to someone and they want to say, "Well, you should do this." To say, "I'm not ready right now. I will be ready in my time. There is no rush." Because that's what I felt was the toughest thing ever was when I was in Switzerland. It was that I had to fix everything right away. And I had to have a job. I had to find a home. Where am I going to live? Where are we going to get married? Am I going to get married? Oh, I've got my stag coming up. And you start blowing up in your head. And guess what? I'm here. I did it. I went through all those things. That moment in time will be a blip. It will be. And you'll then learn from it. So I guess what I'm trying to say is be vulnerable, be open, and don't be scared. Because there are a lot of other people who are sitting in the same place you are. And I think it's important that we just talk and this is why I wanted to come on here today. Because even if my story is a connection with someone else's and that gives them hope, then so be it. Yeah, I think that's very wise advice. You speak very well there. What has given you the courage to come to talk to me? Something I'm trying to find out for my guess is what actually gets, you know, it's very easy for us to say, just talk, just talk. But what is it that actually encourage for you to say, "Short, I'm going to come on this podcast," which is, you know, putting so few media people can hear it. What gives you the courage to do that? Fear? I guess in a good way. I felt like when I first reached out to you, I heard some of your podcasts. I have got a bit of a story. It's not stigma. It's not something that, you know, "Oh, I've been through something really chaotic or something a big crisis, never taken drugs or things like that." And I guess the one thing that kind of made me want to reach out and speak about it was, "I'm just an ordinary guy." And what I mean by that is, we could walk past all these different people and don't know their story. And people will see maybe my social media when I used to post like loads on, I mean, going away on Instagram and it would be all these amazing places. Again, that's just a snippet of me. And I guess I wanted to show that, actually, there's a story behind those photos and that we shouldn't take it for granted that someone might be experiencing something that you have no idea and still today, because there are people that you ask, are you okay? And they go, "Yeah, I'm fine." And I said, "No, no, are you okay?" And that's why I'm talking today is because it's okay, not to be okay. Thank you. Did you ever take any medications support with your mental health or go to a doctor? Yes, I did. A couple weeks before my stag, I got put on antidepressants and it was probably the best thing I did back then because everyone was saying, "Oh, you want to go on those pills? You know, it's going to have a negative impact." And that was also a stigma. It's like, "You're being treated for something." Does it work? Does it not? I notice the difference. I got to my wedding day and I remember being the happiest person alive. I remember enjoying every moment. And if I wouldn't have intervened and went down the, you know, the doctor's route, I may have not had that experience because there were times where I just didn't think I was ever going to make it. And I said, "My ambition was, I am going to make it to my wedding day. I'm going to get there and I'm going to stand under the supper and be the happiest man alive." And I reckon that, you know, some people do need to go and get medical advice. Like, "It's okay. Again, like, there's nothing wrong with it." You know, everyone, there's medication for everything. We're all being vaccinated right now. So it's fine. It's absolutely fine. But yeah, it did help. And I've been on it ever since. And, yeah, it's okay again. Like, there's no harm in doing that or taking medication for something. And it does help. Some people it doesn't. That's a big point around mental health as well. Is that some medications do work? Yeah, I mean, I think, I've had guests who've had very different experiences in myself, I've had a different experience with antidepressants. And it is okay to ask that help. And some people work, some people won't. Like, most things. It's for the individual. But it's, you know, it's important that there is the stigma that is okay to seek that help, I'm sure. You get certain past as well. I get opened up based on you going to that, you know, appointment. Is that it might not just be, for example, you get medication. It might be, oh, you speak to this person or you registered there. So it opens up avenues and you start talking about it. And you're talking about something that you don't know. And someone who you believe will be able to help you as well. Because, you know, for some people just putting a pill on it doesn't always solve the problem. It doesn't. It's still there. Maybe subdued a little bit, but it's still there. But it gets you through and maybe helps in certain ways. Maybe you go with someone to the doctor's as well. And they maybe learn things from the questions being asked. You they learn things that maybe they didn't know before. And it's, it's important for them to hit sometimes here, you know, a bit more of a raw, you know, state in terms of, you know, your asked certain questions that maybe no one would ask you as well. It's levels of mental health. Everyone has mental health. There's physical health and mental health. The problem is is that you see it in a different light. Like people think that, you know, if you've got a disability, people think, oh, that I can see that. I can actually see that you've got a problem. And okay, I'm going to help you. But when someone is sat and not able to visibly show you something, unless they are in symptoms of withdrawal or low mood. People don't really notice it. They can't. Same with you. You wouldn't know. You walked down the street seeing me. You'd think, ah, he's alright. Nothing wrong with it. Is there a question you have to ask me about mental health? By doing these podcasts and hearing about other people's stories, do you feel any acceptance that you have, you're going through a journey? But also by hearing other people's stories, it makes you stronger as an individual. Because you realise that there are so many people out there. Like, does this have a positive influence on your life after the podcast? Yeah, I mean, it absolutely does have a hugely positive influence on me. I think when I hear of people's stories, I straight away feel I'm not alone. I'm not. I think when I first started going through my mental health journey, I felt very alone. I felt like, you know, I looked at my group of friends and I'm like, they're not going to understand what I'm going through. They're all happy. They're all doing their things with different lives. And I think the more people I talk to and even some of those friends that I talk to, I realise that I'm not on my own. And I realise that, you know, I have very similar experiences. You know, even today, some of the things you've said that I can really resonate with. And that's really helpful for me. I also, I quite enjoy it as well. I really do enjoy connecting with people, talking to people about their lives. You know, sometimes having a laugh on these podcasts is allowed as well. So it's nice and I do come out of each podcast I've done. I do feel that was really, I really enjoyed that. And I do have this euphoria of just like being quite happy afterwards. And I can see that and a lot of my friends have said to me since I started the podcast, they can see the changing me as a person. And you know, even though I have those down dips, I am reminded myself that these conversations are important. And what I'm doing is what I'm trying to do is trying to help people to see that. And I've been using something before about how everyone has, you know, mental health is everyone has mental health. And that's what I'm trying to prove as well that everyone's got a story. Everyone's at some point with a suffered from mental health. And it's just, we need to talk about it more as we talk about we have a cold. You know, I've got a cold today. I've got a bit of a feel really rough. You know, it's very normal for us to say. It is, and I think because mental health is in so many different spectrums as well, I think it's what people can associate with as well. So if you say you have a cold, oh, I've had a cold. I know what that feels like. I've got headache. Me too. But as soon as you say, oh, I'm suffering with depression. or anxiety. What does that look like? I have to understand what you're talking about. Your anxiety and my anxiety could be completely different. Your level of depression, my level of depression could be totally different. So it's so hard to depict what someone is feeling. And that's why it's so important, rather than when you hear that someone is going through a difficult time to offer a straight up, this is what you should be doing. Because their association with that feeling is so different to maybe what your experience is. And that's what I've learnt. So like when I hear someone who says, "Oh, I have a feeling a bit low today." Okay. What's going on? Like what's happening? Tell me. And they talk about it. And I say, "Okay, fine." And you know, how long you've been feeling like, it's like just being natural, but also not having to push something on someone. Because if you were to tell me, Ben, that you're feeling low today, I'll just go outside and have a run you'll feel better after. Or go have a milkshake or something, that'll make you feel better. You might go, "Okay, I'll try it." But then you sit back down, you're like, "Oh, I'm fat. I don't want to eat this. I don't want to." And then you start bullying yourself again. And then you go into that phrase. So, yeah, I think it's so important that this is part of who we are and it's fine. Just talk. Thank you. And thank you, Adam, for coming on Talk to Ben. It's been a really great chat today. And keep well. No, Ben, thank you. I really appreciate this space. And keep doing what you're doing. And yeah, thank you. It's been really nice. Thank you for listening to the episode. I hope you enjoyed it. I think Adam says some really important things. Like, it's okay, not to be okay. Which I really champion and truly believe this belief will help. And the stigma of mental health. Next week I speak to Michelle Misrachi. Michelle is the mother of my good friend, Leo. And she speaks to me about some incredible difficulties that she's overcome. So she's postnatal depression and cancer. Until then, enjoy going around to people's houses and eating indoors. And remember, keep talking and keep connecting. When you share a problem, you turn an eye into a wee.