Ep 286: Listening Is Not Enough

Hey fellow Mathers, we are in the midst of the free math is figure outable challenge and would love to have you join us. Register at mathisfigureoutable.com/challenge and we'll make sure you get all the details you need. You can expect high energy engaging sessions along with new free downloads, special guest appearance and tons of prizes. It's happening this week, January 21st through 23rd at 7pm Central Time. There's still time to join us register at mathisfigureoutable.com/challenge. We'll see you there on to the episode. Hey fellow Mathers, welcome to the podcast where math is figure outable. I'm Pam Harris, a former miniker, turned math through. And I'm Kim Manu, a reaser who now knows how to share her thinking with others. At mathisfigureoutable, we are on a mission to improve math teaching because we know that algorithms are amazing. I was trying to decide it was because I historic are human because sometimes I chose them. They're amazing historic human achievements, but they are terrible teaching tools because mimicking step-by-step procedures actually traps students into using less sophisticated reasoning than the problems are intended to develop in use. In this podcast, we help you teach mapping, building relationships with your students and grappling with mathematical relationships. Y'all join us to make math more figure outable. Hey. Hey. Should we tell them that we were joking about last week's episode? Yeah, let's do it. Let's do it. You boldly proclaimed your age to everyone. Why don't care, whatever. I mean, I guess I could boldly proclaim I'm 10 years older than you. Yeah. I mean, it's a number, right? There you go. We're active. We're doing things. We are. But after you were like 25 years, really? Yeah, I saw the eyes that are silver anniversary, but what's the gift for that? There we go. Well, I think we're about to hit our five-year podcast anniversary. That's got to be, isn't it five years? Can we already hit it? I don't even remember. There's so many. All right. Well, like a million episodes. Almost 300 episodes. We should have a party on the 300th episode. Should we? Did I just say 300? Is that a word? 300? Yeah. Is it? Okay. Okay. Okay. I think so. Are we having a party? Are we inviting people to the party? Oh. Hmm. Where will we be on the 300th? You figure out where we're going to be on the 300th. Okay. And maybe we'll have a team dinner. (laughs) They don't care. (laughs) So, like, are you getting that thing done? You and I are going to have ice cream. Wait, I'll have ice cream in your hands. Chips and salsa. Chips and salsa. Okay. There you go. It's a plan. All right. Sounds good. Golly. All right, Kim. We have a couple of conferences together. Yep. I went to tons of sessions where the point was to listen to kids. Do we believe in listening to kids? Absolutely. Absolutely. I think it's super, super important. Now, to be clear, as a young teacher, I did not think it was important. And I did, like, think it was important to listen to kids, you know, tell me about their day. Yeah. Yeah. How their life was going and the game, and I tried to go to kids' games and stuff, you know, like, being involved in their lives. But as far as listening to their math, to me, math was about road, road memorizing and mimicking. So there wasn't much to listen to. Yeah. It was like, do you have it down or not that what problem do you need? I mean, do you? Yeah. What do you stuck on? But there wasn't a lot of like, how are you reasoning? Because I wasn't reasoning. Right. I was focusing for reasoning. So we like the idea of listening to kids. Good stuff. Yeah. When I was, we were talking about this podcast coming up, we're throwing around some ideas for it. So we were talking about some of the things that I'd gone to some sessions on listening and that I kind of wanted to talk about one of them and you said, oh, was it this one? And you mentioned the presenter's name and I was like, oh, actually no, not that one. Yeah. Yeah. So to be clear, yeah, go ahead. Which means that there are a lot of sessions happening where people are talking about listening to kids. Hallelujah. That's fantastic. That's fantastic. And it got me thinking one of the things that might be unique with us at math is figure outable, not like super unique, but maybe kind of unique based on all the sessions that we just went to is that, yes, it's very important, super important to listen to kids, listen to our students, but it needs to be about more than that. Who's it? What do I mean by that? So it kind of felt like in a few of these sessions that that we spent our time and effort kind of applauding listening to kids, but it didn't really help us know why we were listening or maybe more importantly, where to go from there. And I don't know if maybe giving a little bit of an example might be helpful. There was there was again, everybody was talking about listening in one session, we listened to a student's strategy. And I listened with an ear towards, okay, how would I model, represent that student strategy, what model would I choose, why, what do I know about this kid so that I could choose a model. As I was asking those questions, it wasn't so much choosing the correct model as it was, what would be a model based on what I've just heard the student do, what would be a model that might help them get more clarity around the relationships they were using so that then they could go from there, nudge from there, do you say that was what the point was or that was not with the point. That's what I was doing in my head, okay. And so then when the conversation in the session was kind of stopped as soon as people agreed what the kid had done. I looked around and nobody was modeling, nobody was drawing any, I shouldn't say nobody, but most people weren't. If the facilitators weren't encouraging it, it wasn't a thing to do and then we were just done and then we went on and moved on to another student. So what I felt, maybe that we just had this unique bent on, is that yes, we want to listen to students, but toward an end, that sounds like because I'm going to now tell them what to do, it's not that, help me Kim. Yeah, I wonder if it has something to do with the creation of the success map that we believe in that we are like, maybe not that. I don't know. I feel like there's so much about the development of mathematical reasoning and where we are in our journey. We've thought very clearly about building diversity and modeling student strategies, but in the combination there, it's about, we're going somewhere. Listing is great, but there has to be a deeper purpose. And the purpose isn't to say, okay, now I know what you're doing wrong and I'm going to fix your steps or now I know what you can't do. And so I'm going to fill in the gaps or like, right, like all those computer stuff things out there right now that sort of identify, quote unquote, gaps and missing can't do. We're listening, what students, what are students doing, what can they do, what assets do they have, but then we're not stopping there either. Now we're saying, okay, based on that, how could I represent your thing? Thinking, tour being able to then have a conversation about, ooh, like if you're getting to a friendly number, do you also, can you also add a friendly number? And if you're getting to a friendly number, are you then thinking about adding the rest in a whole chunk? And I just chose addition of the cuff. But what if I was writing the equation between two, equation of a line between two points and the kids trying to find the rate between two points? And the students using like a unit rate approach where they're really thinking, well, if I back up this and I back up that, can I, can I, you know, or what, or maybe they're using a non-unit rate approach that's sort of bigger chunks or maybe they're actually thinking about, well, if the line went through those two points here, but I could shift there more of a transformation approach. Once I kind of know what they're doing, if I know the major strategies, then I'm thinking about, okay, I know where you are and I now have an idea of where I might nudge you next. And maybe not even in the moment, but Kim, as I said that, I'm really thinking with teachers I'm thinking about our success map and with students, I think, is that what you're gonna say? Yeah, I was about to say, I realized why I was, yeah, I realized why the success map popped in my head because when we work with teachers and we write content, a lot of it has to do with the people that are in front of us, like what do we know about them based on what they're doing, what they're saying, the engagement that we have with them, all towards nudging forward through the success map, but when we're with students that we are also nudging and it's with, with the DMR kind of in mind and so we're kind of developing mathematical reasoning framework. Yes, yes. We're kind of always, those two are so ingrained in all of our conversations in our minds that it's, we're nudging, yeah. So all that to say, it's not, listening isn't, it's important, it's necessary, but it's not sufficient. We have to help move forward, I think, I think that's our, yeah, and maybe somebody's gonna say sure, but the sessions you went to, they were focusing on listening first, then we can move forward from there. Okay, okay. I was just aware of like, it seemed to happen a lot, we're listening kind of, it was kind of presented as that's the goal and that's like a goal on our path, you know, is that metaphor kind of help? Yeah, yeah. It seems similar to when teachers make the shift from, there's one way to solve problems, to let kids solve problems kind of in varied ways, then sometimes it feels like we see costumes where anything goes and just let the kids solve problems however they want and there's no sophistication conversation, there's no, there's no nudging towards particular strategies. So you know, it's a necessary starting point to say we want kids to solve problems in more than just traditional ways that we were grown up in, but it's, so it's a necessary starting point, but then we have to help them develop sophistication. We can't just say however you want to solve it, good for you, yay. So I see some similarities there, so we're listening to kids because it's in service of moving them forward, not just for the sake of listening. And also in the same way you're saying, we're asking kids to solve the problem using what they know their own way, but not because that's the end, that's not the end goal, the end goal is, okay, now, now we know what you can do and now let's help move, let's help you shift forward, let's help you grow and develop more sophisticated. Yeah, I see some, some parallels there where we're listening for a purpose and letting kids solve problems, but we're also guiding and nudging. It also kind of reminds me of encoaching, we just mentioned the success map, but we're thinking about, you know, when I'm working with teachers and I'm engaging with them and I'm listening to them, I'm thinking about like a specific move that I can use or a specific thing that I can coach on, within this framework to nudge them forward, it's, I'm not just like watching them teach, I'm watching for specific things and I want to engage with them in conversation about like a next move, what's the next move that we can make? Because their goal is to become better teachers, their goal is to like learn and grow. Anyway, so, hey, that reminds me of that session you went to that Sam Oton did and the work that I've read recently where so Sam Oton, he's the, help me, the, what do you call that, the podcast guy? Yeah, would it be a moderator? The post of? Yeah, there we go. Host, there's the word I was going to work with. We don't have one of them. Sorry Sam. We don't know. He does a great job on the method podcast and but some of his work that he's doing is about these small nudges for teachers. Yes. So, I would say he's, he's, he's diving in to see what teachers are doing, but not that's not the end, right? It's not the end goal. Okay. Now we know what you're doing. The end is what would be a really good nudge, the a next nudge that could just make a little bit of forward movement, we're, we're, we're interested to see more about that. I think that's an interesting idea. Yeah. So, you're kind of comparing all of these ideas of not just doing something for the sake of doing it, but always towards then growth and development from there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Nice. It kind of also reminds me of, I went to a session at gosh, I don't remember it was SM and CTM or SM about affirming learning walks and I, I think eventually that, on that episode, how much I loved that idea of just loving on teachers and, and being in their classrooms and saying, like, man, this is really going well. Wait, Kim, an affirming learning walk, doesn't that mean that that, is this a non-example? Because is this, is this where you go in and all you do is just give them affirming, positive? Well, I mean, I think, I think there's something right about naming things that you see that are going well, but I think that if I were doing a affirming learning walks, I would be very, like, I would be looking for things that are going well that I want to encourage more of. So, you know, I think you can say all kinds of nice things, positive things. So, so I think that even in that kind of coaching or that kind, it's not in coaching, that kind of situation where your goal is to lift the teacher up, I think you could even be specific and choosy about the things that you thank you for that word, things that you want to hype up, things that you want to say, man, like more of that, you're doing an amazing job already, but like, let's call out that thing that's going so well because it's making a big impact. You know, that completely out of method for just a second, I was listening to a podcast the other day about relationships and it was sort of marriage advice and it was like, if you like something your spouse is doing, tell them, like, be grateful for that thing, like, reinforce the thing that you want to see more of. So I hear you saying in an affirming learning walk, even though you're not noticing things for improvement, you're out loud, you're not like stating those things. The things that you notice to affirm could be the things that you are encouraging to see more of. Yeah, that's nice. Yeah. I like that. Hey, could it also be similar to think models for a second? What kind of models? Well, I'm thinking specifically about, well, it's, I'm all over the place. Let me, let me start with manipulatives. I remember Gail Borrell when she was the NCT and president forever ago. I'm dating myself where she said, uh, her president's message is, where's the math? Because she was seeing manipulatives all over the country and she traveled around. But she was like worried that the math was getting lost. And I think she had a really good point that we might sort of, um, understand people to say, use manipulatives, it's the bomb and they will magically learn math. They're not saying manipulatives are bad, but they're not the be it end all. It's not the, the goal isn't for kids to use manipulatives. The goal is to use those concrete materials to help kids develop mathematical relationships and connections so that they can then develop more mathematical relationships and connections. Is that, can we clip that thing, can we clip that and put it everywhere? Yeah. Yes. Yes, please. So then I would also say that's true with like an area model. I think when you were pushing me on which, which models, I think, um, if, if you are saying, do a jump strategy with a number line or do a box method, you're, you have the, the potential is there that you're seeing that as the end goal, um, that the end goal that kids are making jumps or the end goal that kids are drawing squares. Uh, I think the end goal is for kids to be developing relationships that are about linear measurement and friendly numbers and place value. Um, if I'm on a number line and, uh, uh, uh, I said linear measurement. So what do you square measurement, area measurement, like two dimensional there. That's the word I want. Two dimensional measurement with area, but also again, friendly numbers and bigger chunks of area, um, as they're, as they're really growing multiplicative reasoning. So the end isn't for kids to do a thing with manipulatives to get an answer. The end is to use those concrete materials or those models to help kids learn and grow. Is that fit? Yeah. For sure. Yeah. Nice. I think when we were chatting, there was also this bit about listening to students, um, about if, if you're point, so we've been talking about mathematical reasons to listen, but also I want to name that if, if your point for listening is about cleaning community and helping students have a voice, even then it's not just, I'm going to watch you as you talk and I'm going to listen to you as you talk. Like I think even in the space where it's not about listening from mathematics, necessarily, you're listening for a purpose. Like you're listening to say, okay, there's where they are and I want to help engage more. I want to help, like I want to help them have a more often considered voice. I want to have a more connected voice to the rest of our group. So even then, whatever your goal is, it has to be in service of more than just could, could I say you want it to allow their experience, their humanity, their voice, their personality, their presence to influence you. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, matter to you, to connect with you, yeah, that it's, yeah, that that's when you're going to do, I think my point is you're going to do something about that. You're not listening just to say, okay, high five, I heard you, it's, it's to learn more about who they are. Like this is, this is so embedded in, know your content, know your kids. If you're listening them, it is about knowing them and knowing how to position them either mathematically, like with what they know and where you're going to head with them, or listening to them mathematically as a community member so that you can bring them more into the fold or, or capitalize on the experiences that they have. So is this also parallel to some of what we see with, when people do number talks or they try more investigative inquiry kind of tasks, yeah, where they might say, okay, who wants to share and anybody who wants to share shares, yeah, and sort of sort of as if the purpose is to share, yeah, and we would say that's not the purpose, yeah, that's not the end part. We're not done then. It's kind of like all the things that we've just talked about. We're going to do, we're going to have kids share, but in service of a purpose, we're going to be intentional about building the mathematics and at the same time being equitable and making sure that we're positioning all students as learners. You know, I'm reminded, um, I heard Kathy Fosno give a talk in one of the virtual summits. I don't remember which one and I only actually heard part of it, but part of what I heard was she said there's a difference between a number talk and a problem string. Any problem talks or number talks were designed for talk, and she said that's not enough. And I'm just paraphrasing, I'm sorry, I'm not quoting her exactly, but something about I just remember her saying, it's not enough for the purpose to be about talk. We have to actually build the mathematician, build the mathematics, yeah, help build the mathematics and help the mathematician develop. I've had some pretty hard conversations with some advocates of having all kids share, where they said, no, no, you have to have all kids share or you're not honoring all kids as learners and you're not, what's the other word I want? Like you have to let all, if a kid wants to share, you have to let him share. And I would say that because I've allowed, I've encouraged kids to use their own strategies to solve the problem using what they know, to reason and can communicate and think and work together, because that was the starting place, I have honored their work, I have honored where they are, and that is a great necessary starting place, but then that's not the ending place. So now in the share, I'm going to actually deliberately intentionally choose students who will help move the mathematics forward for the group. There might be times where I'm working individually with kids or with in small groups where I might say that I'm going to, in that moment, I have a specific student share that maybe I wouldn't have share in front of the whole group for whatever reason, so that they get a chance for their work to be honored and their work to be celebrated and valued. I want to bring all, I want to position all kids as sense makers. And sometimes people hear me say that I'm going to choose a specific student or students to share, and they think what I mean, there's a word that is that, they think what I mean, they intuit. They assume, assume, they assume because of prior experience that I mean I'm going to choose the most clear kid, the quickest kid, the kid who looks like they're the best or the smartest or whatever. When in reality, I'm rarely going to choose the kid who I think is going to give the most clear explanation, because if I believe that learning happens when you get the most clear explanation, then I would just give the most clear explanation. So, if I believe that the more learning occurs when I put you in a position where I invite you into sense making and I invite you into relationship and relationships and to make connections, and I'm very deliberately and intentionally creating those situations with purposeful numbers and purposeful problems, if all of that is happening, then that is the right conditions for students to really make and strengthen and clarify mental mathematical relationships, so that they are built, they are developing as mathematicians and removing the math forward. Yeah. So, we started the episode by saying, the idea of even listening to students was maybe something that you didn't do as an early teacher because you didn't know. So, is listening a great step forward? Absolutely. It can absolutely feel like something to do. We want to create community. We want students and teachers to be good listeners of each other's ideas, and we want students to have voice and agency and identity as a matter. But we can also do that with the goal of moving forward. We can actually move the math forward and help the matters develop into better matters in our classes. Oh, that was so well said, nicely done. So, yeah, listen, absolutely, and for a better purpose, a bigger, better moving forward purpose. I should have just let you finish. You're good. Alright, y'all, thanks for tuning in and teaching more and more real math to find out more about the math-is-figurable movement. Visit mathisfigurable.com, and thanks for spreading the word that math is figure-outable. Thank you for listening and making math more figure-outable. To learn even more, join our free challenge. It's happening now, January 21st through 23rd, 7pm Central, Go Register, and Join us. That's mathisfigurable.com/challenge. See you there.