Ep. 270: Miranda Lambert | How She Keeps Writing Country Hits 20 Years In

Welcome to And The Writer is, I am your host Ross Golan. For the past 20 years, this future country music, Hall of Famer, and future, songwriter Hall of Famer, has used her voice to melt hearts like butter on a biscuit. This woman's collection of accolades doesn't begin to scratch her collection of fans and protégés, which is how this arena star became, for the past four months accounting, one of the biggest producers not only in country, but in all music. Anyway, we're live at Casa Rosa on Broadway in Nashville, Tennessee, United States of America, and The Writer is the one and only Miranda Lambert. Hello. First congratulations on your seven CMA nominations. Thank you. That was quite the intro, by the way. Yeah, I mean, you know, you just keep me in your pocket anytime I speak. Yeah, no, this is wild. The Billboard Hot 100 has been around since 1958. No one your parents loved or you loved growing up, none of those people have a song that's charted longer than choosing Texas. It's wild, honestly, like we're on a group text, The Writer's and I love course, and we just like every week, we're like, what, it's all just a mind blown emoji at this point. We don't even have words. It's just like, what's the secret sauce? We don't know. Like we don't know what that secret sauce happened to be. Like we didn't know it at the time that we wrote the song. We knew that we loved the song, but who could have ever predicted what it's doing. What was the day like when you wrote the song? Where were you? We were at a little Airbnb written outside of town outside of Nashville and we just set up for a couple of days. That's not a favorite way to do it too. It's like, Luke Dick was like, let's just get this cool house and that way we can just like, escape for a second and really get in the zone because Ella was writing for her record and I think I brought like a crock pot of lot chicken chili because it was like a rainy November I think and you know, I had on the same camos wet suit, I realized I got there. So it was one of those just chill like, pull up in rat days and you know, never in a million years would have imagined what that little country song could do. Maybe one of the secret sauces to it is that two thirds of the producers are female, that three quarters of the writers are female and in an industry where what you were doing at radio when you first came up was showing that in a heavily male dominated radio landscape, you were the one that was consistently breaking through and reminding people that it's not just men who do country music, maybe the secret sauce is women in country music. Could be, you know, and it could also be just, the song's pretty simple and I also love, I love the guitar tones, I think that's a huge part of it. It's just like the siglic at the top, immediately you know what it is and I think that's important and then also like, the girl loses, you know, she didn't win, she didn't get them and I like that, like I like that there's this gorgeous little english saying there being like, not one good enough, you know what I mean, like it's just vulnerable in that way. Yeah, it's great storytelling and it's to not have a Hollywood ending, keeps it also really Nashville. Yeah, we got to proud in our beer, we know we do, it's all school. Incredible promo timing for you to be releasing your album coming up, Chrisco and it's not bad, different than, you know, cowboy curtsy, like it's also like, you know, like do you experience not, I feel like Miranda Lambert always has to win, do you not always win? No, I mean, and I think that the non wins are what makes you keep fighting for it, you know what I mean, that you got to go get it the next time, you know, and I think that's been helpful because it keeps me driven, like to not, if the record doesn't have a hit single on it, it's like all right, let's go make another record, you know, and I have to do it anyway, no matter what, like it's just, I don't really do it for that anyway, like I'm not, I don't really have that kind of competitiveness in me, like I just have to rat songs and make records, it's just my purpose in life, you know. Yeah, but when I meet people who are on their, you know, who've had a number of this kind of discography, this extensive discography, by the time they're on album, I don't know how many you're at 8, 9, 10, 11, you know, for sure you're in a session with Luke or Natalie or whoever it is, and you're, you know, a song concept comes up, you're like, oh, well, I did one like that on album three, and I guess the question is, how do you stay fresh with ideas 11 albums in? I think it's like, also, it's okay to revisit, I mean, it is country music. So heartbreak is just, you don't, I don't, I'm not going through heartbreak right now, but I have been before, and so there's a will I can pull from of life. You know what I mean? Like, the most inspiring thing to me as a writer is just living life and watching stories unfold, you know, and so whether I've lived it before and I pull from that will or it's a brand new experience, life is what gives me the ideas, like I'm constantly writing, you know, notes in my phone, like also writers, like when people are talking as someone says something clever or funny, I always make a note of it in my phone, like, that could be a song, that could be a lot in a song, that could be a hook. I don't know. You do that at dinners, you do it constantly. Yeah. If I'm with songwriters, I tell them, I'm like, you need to write that down if they don't, it's month. That's right. And I say it right there. Yeah. I'm like, you miss your opportunity. That's my now. When you're a, when you're a dinner with, you know, friends who aren't songwriters, are you just sort of like, sorry, they're like, oh, word for a third and they know, like my mom said it yesterday. They're well trained. Right. Yeah. Which is fair, you know? I think of going back to the earlier, well, you know, I love that in the elevator here. By the way, this place is amazing. This place is awesome. This bar is so cool. I love it. I love it so much. I'm going to ask you about that in a second. But you have Loretta, Patsy, Dolly, Emi Liu, Tammy, all in the elevator. These girls are going up. We come back down, but we go back up. I love that. It's just constant. It's a roller coaster because of music. I feel like this new album really takes all of that. It has so much nostalgia, whether it's that 70s disco vibe or it has, I mean, like I just said, I love when you have a song like a cowboy courtesy, you know, on it where it feels like I'm doing line dancing, you know, it sets you in a place. Was it by design a retro feel going into doing the album or did you discover that sound while you were making it? It was all intentional, a song to sing with Chris Stapleton was our single together. And we did our video in the Brentwood skate rink on roller skates in like 70s, full on 70s outfits. In fact, I got to wear Dolly's real hoops like from her estate and Chris wore Kenny Rogers necklace. She's insane. Did you saw her? Did you call it? Did you call this? Our stylist figured that out. We had the same stylist Tiffany and I was like, we were kind of nervous all day about it. I'm like, hope my hoops were on all day because they're Dolly's. But that song is what like set this whole thing in motion because it was like, I think this is part of country music that I've always loved, but I've never explored. Just that like very 70s and 80s strings, I've never used strings before. So that song is kind of what got me like, hey, what if we wrote a couple more? And I told Jessie, my producer and co-writer, like, let's try a couple and just make like, what if it's an EP or something fun, just because it was so fun. And then I loved it so much. I was like, now this is the whole thing. We got to go ahead and make this a record. I love Jessie Frazier, super, super nice guy, a good advocate for songwriters. When you find your collaborators, because you work with collaborators on different projects, they seem to be really good friends. You really dive in in a friend way. These albums feel like people who get an Airbnb outside of town and figure it out. Is that you or is that Nashville? I think that's me. I mean, Nashville is that way very much so. But sometimes, I mean, our system is like 11 to 2, right? You know, it's a job a lot of times. And when I'm trying to rock for my own record, or like Ella's record, or Laney's record, or whatever we're doing, I'd rather like not treat it like an appointment. I need like a couple of days to like dive in hard. And luckily, a lot of our collaborators are best friends. So like, Natalie, him be like, her coming to stay in it, my farm would just be any other day. And I think that you really, when you hold up like that for two or three day retreat, you really like get to know each other well. And you share this kind of bond, it's kind of like summer camp, you know, it's like friendships. last and that you shared something and like it's crazy to wake up in the morning and have your coffee in your eggs and then y'all sit around we sit around and get a guitar out or whatever or get the rig out whatever we're doing and the end of the day there's like three things in the world that weren't there that morning like that's like the dopamine hit that we need. How many songs do you write in a day? On retreats it's been up to four or five like just spent on it for rolling or not like sometimes they go quick so they're like I'll start another you know I think we wrote I think we wrote we wrote choosen texas and butterflies these in the same day that's awesome I know that's so great it's a this is you know I got a feeling boom boom power the same day or like some of these there's some of these stories where there's just something in the air that makes it happen and then you kind of like want to catch it so you keep going like even if you're tired everyone's like get in espresso we got to do more make get a bit whatever you get your tequila whatever we need to get out to get this to like see this because sometimes it just comes out of the air you know and you got to catch it while it's there hey guys we shot this episode live and it was brought to you by amazon music for songwriters and sona songwriters in north america you can check it out on amazon music it's also when you're staying on location and you're with the same writers the best part of writing camps is that you kind of want to be the one who shows up the next day with the idea or even when you're exhausted like you're lying in bed and you're like oh man that was a great day right oh no what if it goes like this you know suddenly like on to the next idea and you come in and it's this competition almost not like yeah in that way but you show up and you show up first yeah it's like hey I have this idea from last night I have this idea from last night but those are those two you know those are your two songs yeah you know before we get to you as an artist I think a lot of people know obviously know you as an artist but you as a songwriter you have this incredible discography and you can you've been writing more and more with other artists for other artists whether it is Chris Stapleton or it's Morgan Wallin or you know obviously Ella how do you approach writing with an artist differently than you approach writing for yourself I loved really dovon into this writing with other artists and collaborating with people I respect anyway and love but maybe never collaborated with and I think it's gets you out of your own head you know sometimes it's not fun to be the artist in the room where it's all the pressure it's like when are you cutting what do you need what do you have and then it just feels like a job sometimes but I'm like but now I realize like I love being that for other artists like if they're at the end of their record or they're beginning of their record it's like what are we chasing I want to I want to go on this journey with you where are you at in your life what's going on in your life and you know it's also pulling from a different well and they can pull for mine you know what I mean and I think it's just been really fun and obviously rewarding with Jews and Texas that you know that it works and it's cool to mix styles sometimes and it's cool to mix like you know you put Luke Dick and Natalie him be in a room they have completely different stories for you know I mean Luke's he's like calling my cosmic okay because he's like not of the earth the history is the greatest story in songwriting history really you know it's for those who don't know he was you know raised in a in a unique environment you can go listen to the podcast we did with them a few years ago but he has a documentary too called Red Dog oh yeah that's right yeah highly recommended yeah I think also when you're working with those kinds of writers they they know the game of pushing you know your boundaries and their boundaries and trying to find things that don't exist in in normal popular music and what's made you popular as an artist is that you you're not chasing the trends that everyone else is chasing yeah is is that by design um I feel like there's been a few records that I was like a head or behind the time of it like when were you ahead what albums were you ahead at the time like the way to these wings was a double album and it was like my whole good bad and ugly laid out for the world and then like everyone started to put out a double album so I was like I was ahead of myself you know what I mean um like it just didn't land and sometimes the time that it was supposed to and that's probably just me overthinking it because no but streaming is a bigger is a different world now and yeah you know if if you release a double album now it becomes a playlist and it creates a different revenue stream and it has like an algorithm changes 2015 so it wasn't there yeah yeah yeah yeah um you know I don't know if I've been behind maybe like I think I just accidentally chose the hard road at first because I was writing songs that were I mean gunpowder and lead was like not you know kerosene I was like burns my house down like they're not just that wasn't popular to say on the radio at the time so like I was like but this is how I feel like I'm like come out guns of blaze and so it just took longer it literally and it just took longer but it was worth it because um you know I don't know if I was ahead or behind then but I caught up with myself finally like at revolution which was my third record like I feel like that one like landed when it was supposed to and that was by design that was very intentional like I had kerosene and then crazy ex-girlfriend also named my records kerosene and crazy like okay well that's on you you know what I mean well like what do people think they're like I got too uh I got pushed in kind of this like she's fiery she's a firebrand she's feisty corner and I was like no I'm a songwriter though I have a lot more to say that's just what we led with and so I knew when it was time to make revolution that like I really needed to pay more attention to like all different kinds of songs and make sure I didn't pigeonhole myself yeah I want to go and tell a little bit of that story while while we're on it which is that you know you're raised in Texas uh and you moved to Nashville when you're still in a teenager right yeah I was 19 did your parents think that was crazy well yeah but no because I'd already like talked to them I started playing hunky-tunks really at 16 17 I got the house gig at the style bar called three o-pal mile so it was like still a junior in high school playing three knots a week it was a lot but I was like where was that where was that okay and I just knew like this was the it was also the first time I'd ever been naturally good at anything I had to like work for academics not athletic was a cheerleader had to stay later to learn the dance again like I just not it was nothing was easy until music and that's when I was like okay maybe this is supposed to be my thing you know like kind of singing church and stuff but I really got serious about it when it was like talking about college time and I was like I don't know I want to go to college like I wanted to go play playing three nights a week is really valuable for a number of reasons because you're playing often on some nights when no one's there and you have to sing the most night for like a lot longer after that too describe describe that bar and what kind of material you were singing at that point that bar was first of all I wasn't even really old enough to get into for the first two months I had the gig my mom had to come with me which she loved because she would drink beer and then I would drive her home after my kid she's like this works for me it's a good mom yeah but it was like a honky talk I'm talking about old school lion dancing sawdust on the floor um lack old school honky talk and it was it was before we had like something as nice as an iPad to like have your cover you know your covers I had a book like this thick like probably I don't know six inches thick of printed out lyrics in the laminated little thing like that was my guide like I just would like flip and be like okay we're doing Brooks and done you know what I mean and that's that's the bar where I learned how because I'd just started writing songs and that's where I learned like everybody wants a waltz I need to learn to write that you know because it's back in the day where people would like to play a waltz you know and so I learned like play a shuffle so I started learning like okay I need to write some of these songs that these people want even if there's only four people there they want it a waltz it's so you know a lot of country radio when you were first coming up a lot of the you know you maybe not even when you're first coming up but a little bit later during even the automatic error just it's like that was right around when a lot of men were just talking about trucks and the similar core progression it was like there are all these mixes really put these songs the sound of the same and so different than the kind of music you adhere in classic country which is all over the place and has jazz in it and has blues in it has all kinds of you know they've Carter family and Jimmy Rogers history of country going all the way up to where you you know, doing, uh, Brooks and Dunne and all that, it, it seems like learning that classic American songbook or country songbook is so valuable and it explains a lot of the choices you've made in your career. Doing that training, it's like the Beatles in Hamburg. It's like you, when you do covers night after night or three nights a week, you learn the best song you study from the best songwriters. Yeah, I mean, you're learning from the best songs in the world. So like you're right, you can't help but learn like how the phrasing happens and how the rhymes happen and what, what the melody is and how it changes and it really did, I think, teach me so much about, you know, it's not only like your stage chops, it's definitely your songwriting chops because you're just, and singing so many. I mean, it was four hours a night, three nights a week and we had like three, 45 minute sets. So it was just, it was a lot. Could your voice hold up? Back then, yeah. Um, it probably, you know, I did get, it did start getting tired and that's when I also was like, okay, so I need to protect this. Like there's something to this. I don't want to get like stuck here, you know, because I was graduating high school and I was like, I want to go on the road like and learn because Texas, luckily, we have our own, we have our own music scene and we, there was so many places to play. There was so a way to build it not in my hometown, but like, you know, drive forever. But, you know, it was like, I need to start really getting out there and not just like stay in this honky tone because I might never get out. Who said do you go move to a national? Well, I auditioned for a TV show called Nashville Star. All right. I know. And everyone forgets that. And, um, cause, you know, Idle was out like, Idle, Kelly Clarkson had just one and I was like close to her age and she's from where I'm from kind of. And but Idle just wasn't, um, like I really wanted it to be like about a songwriting. And at that time, they weren't letting people on American, I'll do originals. And so I wasn't interested in that plus it's for like those kind of singers. I just wasn't that kind of singer. And then Nashville star came along. It was only a four season show when USA Network. But it got me out and it got me to Nashville. And like, you know, I remember way in the pros and cons because I had an independency CD. I had made selling out of my mom's car. And I was having some like success on Texas radio and I was getting good bookings. And it was like, do I stay and build this like this? That's going to take at least a decade for sure. Or do I try this and maybe like get in the hands of some different people and get seen for some bigger opportunities? It was like really hard to weigh out at the time because I was like, I love my home state. I could have a career here. But then their opportunity came around and I went to Dallas and did not. I also was like a little iffy on the contest thing, you know, there's a little bit like, is this rigged? Is this works it? So I didn't really try that hard on it. A little bit of both at the time. Yeah, it always is. Which also taught me how the business works. But it wasn't. Turns out it was like you get in there and sing and you make it or you don't. I tried out in Dallas. My mom drove me and I just didn't try. Like I have asked really honestly. And we got in the car and my mom like didn't start the car. She was like sitting there silent and I was like, I don't know. And she like turns to me and she was like, I drove you all the way here. And we have been hitting the pavement hard together. And that's what you deliver. Like, that's not teamwork. That's not my daughter. And so she was like, you're doing that again for me. And you're doing it in Houston. I'm driving me there in two weeks and I was like, okay. And I needed that. Like I needed her to like, you know, as she would say, rip me a new one because it was like, are you taking this seriously or not? Do you want to stay in these tiny bars that we're fighting for and you're getting paid $50 or do you want to try to do this? Because I didn't really have another plant. This was it. And so Houston, I went in with like a different headspace and I sang crazy a capella. And then I made it to the second round. I mean, I didn't even make the top 30 in Dallas. I didn't make the top 30. Like, that's how bad I did. So bad I didn't try. And I picked wrong song choices. And like, I was like, no, I'm going to go to Houston. I'm going to sing a piece of Patsy climb by myself. And then I'm going to, and then I made it second round. And I sang two more bottles of one, Emile Harris's version and end up winning for Houston. That's how I got to Nashville. I'd never been on a plane by myself until then. DMW's a scary place. I'm like, oh my god, I don't even know where I'm going. My mom's crying. It was like kind of going off to college to be honest. That's what it felt like. Yeah, it was your college. It was honky-tonk you. It's so weird because here we are on Broadway and your your bar. This is the all honky-tonk row. When you got there, there weren't artists who own their own bars who had a spot. How does it feel now to be in a place where for honky-tonk you, you go there and now you are your names on the building. It's like if you go to you're an alumni of any university and you then can per, you know, you donate your, and so you get your name on. Yeah, that is what it feels like. Yeah, you kind of like. It's like a route of passage. Yeah, and it's earned it. You know, I think it's cool because I'm the first woman to have one down here in Broadway, which was awesome for me. And that's why it's extra girly. I was like, we're doing something for the girlies. There's Ron Stone saddles and Pink Boots in our restaurant and Pink Neons. And I just thought, and I mean Tex-Mex from my little nod to home, you know what I mean? And so I just feel like I'm really proud of this place. I've had a lot of fun here and I love that there's a place for the girls that come to town to really feel like, okay, there's a girl bar here because it is kind of like dude row, you know what I mean? Which is fine. They're all awesome. And each bar has its own personality, but I definitely like none of them probably have wallpaper, but we do. Where does the name come from? So I have a store in my hometown called the Pink Pistol. And so I thought we should just have the pink house, you know? So cool. When you move out here and that first album does really well. You know, you did your like you were saying you were selling it and an album out of your trunk. The first time I had a producer in LA, I remember him saying, I was like, I just want to be in the music business. I want to, you know, and he's like, you are the music business. You were selling albums. It was sort of how I started doing it. It's like that is a part of the ecosystem. And most of the music industry is that ecosystem. It's actually, you know, yes, there's the, there's the pro baseball, but so much of it is the minor leagues and different versions of it and collegiate in high school. Like all that stuff is part of the hierarchy to become a professional in any sport or art or whatever it is. And then you get a, you know, working on kerosene that did it exceed your expectations or did it match your expectations? I did exceed it for sure. I don't think I knew what to expect. And back then too, I was so like, I really just my, my home state honestly gave me like confidence that I wouldn't have had otherwise because of our music ecosystem there. And a lot of my heroes or senior songwriters from Texas and I've seen them. They're all still having careers. I'm just all jacking from yesterday. And Randy Rogers and like, I just was like, okay, if I can't do this my way, then I can go back home. And it gave me this like extra boost of confidence to really dig my heels in and go, I have something to say. And I want to say it my way. And I want to use Franklin L to do it. And where I'm going home, like I don't, I don't need this bad enough to sacrifice myself. And looking back, I'm like, that was pretty balls. You just walk in there and say that. But that's how I felt. And it's still how I feel. But I also like, as you go through, I'm on a record 11, like you calm down. And you're like, Oh, people, listen, you can get the chip off your shoulder now. People heard you take a chill pill. Yeah. In that, you know, in the Kerosene video, the the quantity of kerosene you would have had to have, because you're pouring kerosene in fire. Yeah, it's you certainly were in a mood. Yeah, definitely. We're trying to burn it down. Yeah. How did you mean see bro? I wrote with see bro. Um, I, well, I wrote with them. I, I'm a huge see bro fan, obviously. And I got on this like when I first like when I was here when you first start writing songs like you get like on kicks, you're like, diving so hard into one artist. And then like, you can't help but like, steal on accident. So kerosene was a direct rip off of I'm all right by because I was obsessed with that record and I listened to it 24/7. And in fact, all the way to Nashville star audition and back, like I just was cranking that record in Richard Bennett who played on that record and produced all the Steve stuff we love was in the studio playing on Kerosene and he was like, we're right on top of this. And I was like, you're right. And I know why because I'm obsessed with it. So immediately we were like, let's call Steve and just be like, hey, you want half? And he said, yes. And so we were co-riders and had never met. And I was like, that looks so cool. That's cool. A shit to have a song I wrote with my hero that I don't even know yet. And then we wrote a song several years later together and we talked about it. And he was like, you know, I appreciate you doing the right thing. And also, like, I had to pay some alimony. So I needed that at the time. I was like, which wife, Steve, whatever. I opened for him in Boston in 2005, maybe, probably right around then. And I was just like just watching him. And on that, that album, I had a song where I interpolated, blinded by the light for Bruce Bringson. And he signed off on it and there's a golden spring scene track somewhere. And that's the coolest co-write I've ever had. I'll never beat that in my life. It's like one of those things right. If my tombstone said, wrote a song that not with, but even has a half-credits. I mean, next to it, yeah, good enough for those who see that tombstone, I guess. Crazy ex-girlfriend, that's a big album. That's cool. That was a good, that was a good follow-up. Like, double-down. Yeah, I mean, but it sounds like you were having fun doing it, weren't you? Or were you? Yeah, I was. And I was like, I realized with this, you know, kerosene sold a million copies, which is huge any time, but it was definitely huge then and I realized that my people were out there. And what I was speaking was speaking to them. So I did double-down on my like, I'm just going to keep on wearing my little tank tops. Mama tried to, and like burn some more stuff. Like, I was having a great time burning stuff. I still do. I just don't ride about it as much. I saw, you know, it's really the beginning of your relationship with Natalie Hempi, too, right? Yeah. How did you meet Natalie? Matt Natalie, through Franklin Dell, she was signed as a writer to Carnival Music. We didn't actually start writing together until Revolution, like, right before Revolution. Got it. So yeah, in that timeframe, between crazy ex-girlfriend and Revolution, we became friends. She was working at Dell in town, like, just had a regular little job and we immediately hit it off and we wrote, I think Watt Lauer was like one of the first songs we wrote and it was our first number one ever, and we got to share that together, so that was really cool. Yeah. She's so great. And I also, you know, Ashley Monroe as a collaborator, both as a writer and as an artist, she's an incredible artist. Yes. Working with other people who are pursuing their own art, is that, does that ever get complicated? Only on logistics, like if everybody's on tour, you know what I mean, it's like trying to get like a writer's camp going on for, you know, like with the pistols and these for instance, with Ashley and Angelina and they're both moms and they're both strong writers and like, I'm on tour. You know, it's just, it's harder when everybody's kind of doing their own art and, but it's also worth it because I think something really special comes out of that because it's a departure from your daily ground, your daily self, you know. Tell me the story about gunpowder and lead. That sounds so good. Well, thank you. My family took in abuse, women and children my whole teen years. Some a little brother and a little were displaced out of our room several times in the middle of the night because my parents were private investigators and my dad was a police officer and because of their background on enforcement, they kind of started this like charity side hustle of like taking care of these women and children that needed to get out of a bad situation. So while I had like really great parents and like, you know, church on Sunday and Wednesday night and mom made cookies after school, I also saw a lot of ugly like coming in our house, you know, and like adult stories like it kind of, it's so great. It's like you're 17 and you're like, oh my gosh, this is, this is what's the reality. Of some people's life. And so my friend had their little and I had met in the meantime and I judged her at a songwriting contest in Greenville, Texas like a little Colgate songwriting and she won because she was amazing and so he started writing songs together and she had been a victim of domestic violence her own self. And so we sat down and wrote that song one day, just the two of us and I knew it was powerful. Like I was 17, I think maybe 18 we wrote that and she was, you know, in her 20s, like, and we just kind of knew like, it's one of those songs you write and you look at each other like, dang, do we just do that? Like, you know what I mean? So I feel, I feel like that was such a huge, it's such a huge staple for me in my catalog. Like this, the subject matter and how I got to that and, you know, who I got to write it with and the stories I've heard from women over the years that have come up to me and said that song saved my life and like some crazy stories, like, and some mean reads. I've heard some crazy things, which was the craziest story that you got from Gunpowder and Led. Well, and Lady walks up and she's like, I don't need a picture or anything. She's in my meet and greet line. We were in Indianapolis and she's like, I just want to tell you that I finally had enough and that song gave me the courage and I did shoot him and I got off and I was like, okay. And so I was like, I'm going to be like, she was dead serious like she was hardcore. And then we cried together because she had started, like when she said that, I started crying probably first because I'm like, that was just a powerful, when someone tells you something like that about something you wrote that didn't actually happen to you, like it's very intense. And so she was like third-minute meet and greet and I had like 85 people. I was like, I'm going to need a minute, like I need to take a breath and like hug her and recover from what that is because like the next little girl's in a two-two with a little red wagon shirt. I'm like, this is different energy. I got them not matching energies, but it was the craziest story and I just realized at that moment, like this isn't just me on stage playing a character or me playing a character in the studio. A series song we wrote about a series matter and it's like touching people and affecting their lives, you know? Revolution is such an incredible album and it has a number of songs on it that are ever greens. And obviously, the house that built me is someday at that annual NNPA meeting or there will be some sort of, you know, it itself is probably in the country music hall fame, the song, you know? I think one of the things that makes great artists are ones that know how to curate a great album, whether they're a writer on it or not. What gave you the courage to take an outside song like that? I think it's so important to cut outside songs, I mean, like, especially when I was younger, like I was writing a ton, but I didn't really know what I was doing. So I think I have a cover on pretty much every record and or a cover or an outside song. Obviously, I think, you know, when you hear, I also think you limit yourself if you don't open your world up to what other people have to say, like, if I would, I wish I would have thought of that, but I didn't. I don't know what the hell little red wagon's about, but I know you can't write in it, like, for sure. It's a feeling you get. It's like a, she's, she got in my head somehow, you know, and how it's to built me when I heard that song and had to pull over and like, cry my eyes out enough. I mean, there were handprints on our front steps, and our dog was buried in the yard. I was like, how did they know? How did they write everyone's story? Like, it just felt so, it felt so close to home, and it was just a, basically a demo of Tom Douglas playing piano, like, it was real simple, you know, and it's, I'm so thankful and proud that I got to, like, be part of that song's life, you know, and I didn't take it lightly. That, that was a big message to deliver, and I hope I did it justice, and it's just, it's such an important part of who I am as an artist. Yeah. I think the vulnerability on this album, even, even in a way, the vulnerability in how only prettier is, is, is performed, but there's, there's a vulnerability to that album coming after trying to burn the, the world down for the last few, walking into those sessions to try to figure out what the shape is of that album. Were you trying, did you have to tell people to know that I'm not, I'm not the one is trying to burn it down. Let's try to change it. Was it by, did you have to remind your co-writers, like, okay, we've shot some people, we've burned some shit. Yep. Let's do a new album. And let's, let's grow a little, let's, you know, I mean, like, there's spotfulness definitely with, like, Watt Lyre and only prettier in like, yeah, kichiness, but it was like, we can't live in that fiery world, like, my mom always says to people. she's not actually hiding behind the door with a shotgun and a cigarette like that's not you know and so it was like the time to prove like I'm more than I'm more than this as a songwriter well the woman third in line yeah she is the um the that yeah I love this album I think heart like mine is like it is a really is a you know you gotta get shot at hits you know that's it's another great record where you starting to find it to be easy did you think it was easy to write hits at this point no I still don't think it's easy it's very hard I like I don't know but you have this string of just everything it seemed like everything you were doing was just what's like but smashes I never know what a hit was because like for my career like my set list is made up of quote unquote hits that I've over the years you know 20 years of catalog but they're not like top fives or number one's like I think Gunpowder went to 11 carries him into like 14 house or heart like mine did go number one which was amazing but like taquila does is a huge staple in my set and it wasn't even a single so like but that's also later in house hits were consumed you know what I mean but and country radio you know this is the being ahead of your time works a lot in your career you know you were really in an era where it just were not a lot of women at radio and it was a big thing yeah you know it's it's if you if you were to come out now then you you wouldn't also wouldn't be in a position where you could help mentor Alan right so what you'd gone through obviously helped your career out long term yeah I am a long game player I'd rather invest in the long game than like you know like I said earlier even just about those the subject matters of my early singles was like I'd rather this take longer but feel right and that's what I still live by in my career you know for the record also you know following that up is just kept you kept following it up and this one famously you started your relationship with Blake how does having going into writing music with someone that you're romantically involved with how does that affect the writing process well it's pretty natural I mean you have to sing your songwriters in a house all the time like it's bound to happen I don't know why it took us that long like we had some songs but we didn't quite record them and take some seriously but you're talking about over you right yeah yeah and it was it was like one of those um real conversations laid out not on the bus it was like you know we also were both very busy touring musicians like it was a lot you know it just it's two people go in two separate ways constantly so like there wasn't a lot of time to rock sometimes when you're off the road you had four shows you're like the last thing one to do is pick up my guitar right that one need a minute you know and it was late not conversation about um the death of his brother and I was with his family when his dad passed away and I had lost a best friend um in an accident all kind of at the same time as this conversation happened his we lost his dad and my friend and so it was one of those like really organic like moments between not only like romantically linked people but two songwriters met that night you know what I mean and really like and I remember saying to him like this is kind of your story I don't want to be as vulnerable as you want to like I'll go there with you if you want to and you did and so and so did I and I felt like that was pretty magical because it just was two songwriters all the other stuff fell away this was two really close friends writing a song that night and it's a very special song to both of us at this point you'd been non-stop writing for seven years yeah and then you're you're writing on a bus while you're on tour there's no break not my bus his tour no but yeah like whichever but like just the life that life you just never stop yeah that's what I meant like if it wasn't my bus if his bus or bus for so like there's no possible to have a normal life right yeah for sure the road is a it's a magical place and where you get to meet your fans and actually see in person like people singing words back to you it's the best job in the world but it's hard of all the writing teams you work with and have worked with uh Brandy Clark and Shane McNally are two of my favorite people in general yep what a dynamic duo yeah I put in like the writing team from LGBTQ heaven yes exactly so great and individually you know I cite a lot of their songs like to other people who aren't I live in LA like most not all my peers listen to country music but you can just go through their songs and be like check out this link right check out this song it's just so great but the thing that makes a mama's broken heart so so cool to me is that it belongs in that that book that you did covers of uh it belongs it's in a different time it's it's literally not like anything else anyone else is writing right how did mama's broken heart get made well it got pitched to me and it was Casey singing the demo and I was like are we sure she doesn't want this song and I was told you can have it and I don't know if anyone told Casey so we had to discuss that um and like I just I felt like when you hear something it was like how said built me feeling very different song but very much that like I'm not passed out and I if I can't sing this I have to have it it's me it feels like and then also piss cuz you're like I think of it like you know what I mean and it's just so brilliant and so quippy and smart and I loved the story and we've all lived that a little bit if we have a southern mama so like it just felt like I have to have this in my world and and Casey singing on it as well but like I loved those three writers for their own art individually but I was like dang it like I wish I had a thought of that but can I please have this because I know it's going to be a state I knew it was going to be like my next version of fiery thing that I needed like not gunpowder not kerosene not crazy ex-girlfriend but with the sentiment of like fastiness and spotfulness I need I wanted it you know what I mean yeah and it's I mean I don't that's another example I use when I talk to younger artists about like um or anyone about outside songs like I think about my set list like I don't have the end of my show if I don't have outside songs I didn't write little red wagon I didn't write one was broken hard I didn't write drunk you know what I mean and I'm like that's like the final push of my show like I'm so thankful that I was stay open stay open and willing to listen because it just feels like such a part of me musically even though I wasn't the writer what do you think the music industry has stopped encouraging artists to take outside songs I think that it gets some of it's greed I mean some of it's just business like you know I don't know if it's okay to say that maybe not somewhere it almost feels like okay well they're judging by your face shot not said that because that's what I think it's true I mean this is there are genres where if you write in theater speaking of brandy and Shane you you know actors come to that workshop they learn the material and they say thank you for the opportunity for the to sing this role and they love here singing these songs that were written not even for them but just for the character and then they find themselves in this there are parts of the world where outside songs are the entirety of the business and country is so famously built on this both the outside songs like you mentioned crazy you know like that's can you imagine if Pastor Clon's like nah nothing like I'm not going to cut that song that would be wild that was to be that's can you imagine of Wayland and seeing looking about Texas yeah yeah right I mean that'll just be a sad day in the world yeah I do think it's because it gets the business I live in Nashville like there are hundreds of great songs written here every single day by people who write every day and it's not and they're like that it yeah I think they're like we're boss somebody brand new that might just have a little gymsent around you want to know about so I think it's so you might be working in Dell exactly exactly like I just think it's so important to be open I love writing it's one of my favorite things I also love hearing a song where I'm like oh I wish I'd written that you know the platinum era comes at a time when I just had I got married in Nashville that year and And I had had my first number one song in Nashville that year. And I just remember the holy grail of writing was getting a song with Miranda Lambert. Like everyone in the songwriting community here was just talking about this album. For some reason this album had this, maybe it's just because of where I was in starting to come out here. - 'Cause I never heard that before, but I- - It felt that way. And it was, I'm with Warner Chappell, I was always around Audre May and the Red Wagon and Nicole, for Automatic having Nicole and Natalie on that, it just felt like this was the thing that if you could work on this album. And when it came out, it was so successful. It just felt like, it felt like it was curated, though it felt like the whole thing was curated well. It just was a great, I wanna say, I mean this in the best way, like a pop country album. - Yeah, and I wanted, I remember. So I lived in Oklahoma for a year. So like I wasn't in the daily songwriting things we've been talking about. I'm kinda glad that I missed some of those 'cause I was on the road so heavily in those days. And, but I was sort of in my own world in like the country in Oklahoma. So I was curating it not within other opinions because I wasn't in Nashville talking about, like I didn't know what you just told me 'cause I wasn't here. And I'm glad because I think I would have leaned too hard on like, I might have been swayed and I just felt like I was like head down horse with blinders. I know what this record needs to be. I know what I'm going through right now in life. I know that I remember saying to my management, getting the plan together for this record is like first of all calling it platinum. I was like, is it too much? Like, are we jinxing it? Is this too, but it just felt right. I'm obsessed with air streams. I had like four air streams at the time. My bleach blonde. Like I was like, I don't know what else to call this. Like it kind of just has to be called that. So 'cause we had a song with Nicole and Natalie on that one, what done kill you all name makes you blonde? Or like it just felt like there was so many pieces of this record that felt shiny. So it had to be called platinum. Then I was like, oh no, what if it doesn't go platinum? That's gonna be really embarrassing. - Yeah, you can just read the headlines. One way or the other, that line is written for you. - Yeah, right. Well, it did first. - Yeah, exactly. - So really? - Yeah, and it won, you know, obviously automatic one for the ACMs and, you know, it's an incredible album. Little Red Wagon, I remember hearing Audra sing it and just thinking the same thing. I wish I wrote that. - Same. - It's so smart. - And a version that she did with Deena Carter produced that record that that's on Audra Maze. And I just wore that thing out so much. And I was like, I gotta say, it was fitting again. Like mom was broken heart. I was like, I have to sing this. Like I asked Audra May, I called her and was like, cannot do care if I cover a version of this because I just feel like it's in my soul. And, you know, but that whole record platinum, like I really started honing on, have a little taste of everything on there. Like I wanted to have like something ballad and 5-D and shuffles and waltzes and like really keep it diverse. Not, you know, like put myself in one spot. - When something bad came out, it was the two women leading country radio for at this point a long time. One, shout out to the late Brett James. Chris a wonderful producer writer. That song comes out and it felt like a statement to radio, was it? - It was it by design. - Yeah, and it was Tom. Like her and I had survived a lot of this business together at the very same time. We kind of started at the very same age. We were both on a reality show. Like there were a lot of similarities between, even though our music is very different, there were some similarities in our journeys. And I was trying to find a song, 'cause I wanted to do a song with Kerry, but I was trying to find one that mixed our personalities. Like because we are very, very different, but there's pieces and parts of each of us that can cross over into each other's lines, you know? And so when I heard that one, I was like, I feel like that is the girl that burned the bed in the street in West Texas, which was me and the girl that did whatever she did with that Louisville slugger to that pickup truck. And I was like, let's pull, let's channel those girls and let's just go for it. And it was really fun because we had never collaborated and she said yes to the song. And then she wrote the entire treatment by herself. Like if y'all haven't seen that video, I know it's old school, but it's worth a revisit because Kerry's like, well, had some ideas for the video and then she sends this email and I'm like, this is a movie, like this is amazing. And Trayfan Joy is who I've worked with for almost every single visual thing I've ever done. And I don't know, it was just, it took it to another level, you know what I mean? - Smoking and drinking has, you know, Natalie, both Natalie's on it. Natalie mains and, and Henry and Ashley Monroe. And then you have little big town. There's a theme where you write a lot with multiple women is that, I think the, what, when you look at other people's discographies, often a female writer will have still mostly male collaborators on most songs. And there are so many songs you have that have all women is that by design. - I think it's just a natural thing for me. I have like my, some of my best friends in the world are guys and most of them are my guy collaborators, honestly, like John and Jack and Luke and Jesse, but like, Aaron Riteer, like I feel like a really close guy friend, but a lot of them are, those people I've shared those experiences with, but for the girls, it's like, I really in laugh on my girls' girl. I am, and I, even though I'm a tomboy, like I really just love, I just believe in having a close female friendships and lifting each other up. And like that's not just something I say because you're supposed to say it, it's, I lived it. I do live it. I've always taken women on tour. And I've always been thankful when someone brings me along. Like when Reba's nice to me and gives me some advice or whatever, like I just collaborating with Kiri, because on that moment, it was like 1 plus 1 equals 5 because it hadn't happened. And so I just see the result and like the friendships you can build from sharing experiences with women. And so, you know, getting to like have a slumber party and also rat songs and then they work is like the best laugh ever, you know what I mean? - The weight of these wings feels like the exact opposite title from platinum. You know, there's this like-- - Yeah, he was shiny no more. - It was-- - Last beat 'er up. - Yeah, tell me about that transition from, you know, being on top of the world, certainly career wise to then wanting to do an album like "Waited the Wings" in response to what was going on in your life. - Yeah, I think it was. So in the meantime, after platinum in, I guess that was 2013 or '14 platinum, I don't remember what that-- - Yeah, 2014, right. 2015, I got divorced. And that sucks for anyone, especially in the public eye, especially on tour, especially in the middle of a very public career, two of us, you know what I mean? It just was a really not fun time. And in the meantime, I had moved back to Nashville full time. And so I dove headfirst into songwriting. Like I had missed it. Like, so again, opposite of platinum. I was glad I was removed. I would come to town and rot specifically for platinum and then I was out. And when I moved back in 2015, gathered up all of my friends and relationships from, you know, all of the previous years and just used it, like used the misery. I used to stay in out too late at Honky Tonks. I used what I was living and my friends went on that journey with me, friends being songwriters. And I think I wrote 75 songs in like a year. I mean, in like the first four months, I moved back. And it was kind of magical because I've really started like growing my songwriting then. Like really, it wasn't writing towards a specific record or a sound or a feisty or whatever. It was like raw emotion. And I think I really grew as a vocalist and a songwriter because it spent so much of my downtime with a guitar in my hand for the first time, you know? Yeah, it sounds like that. It really does. a great album. You know, a song like "Vice" and "Tin Man." These are really sort of not just your ever-greens. They're just ever-greens in the business. Well, I appreciate you saying that, and it's, you know, it was worth it. It was worth laying it out there. Tell me the story about "Vice" because it's just so good. I was riding with Josh Osborne and Shane, and I was in, it was during the height of like a lot of bullshit in my life, and I literally rolled a cooler into the ride. That's where I was. I was like, "I'm just gonna need some," and I like had like probably like "sigs" and "gum" and "chitos" and "titos" and like just whatever. I need some help right now. One of those-- Cheetos and "titos." Cheetos and "titos" are my two staples. Like, if you come to my shows, like, that's all I need. I can live on that. And so I walked in, I say all that to say that's the state I walked in in, like just to just struggle bus and Shane and Josh just immediately. I was like, "I brought on my glasses," or whatever, and they were immediately like, "we'll meet you where you are." And it was a-- it was not an easy ride. Like, that wasn't easy to just say and like be that raw and like also in the process of riding, you know, you get really vulnerable with people. Like, when you're gonna ride a song like that, they're not walking in there, having a party and then riding that and then going, "All right, I gotta pick up the kids from school." This is like a thing. You know, you're digging in with somebody and going there with them. And so I'm appreciative that all my co-riders did that with me. It was a two-year journey of like, "We're not riding a much happy song right now. We're getting in the thick of it." Does proximity to a major music center-like Nashville matter for songwriters? Do you have to be here? I think, two things. I think it's such a cool thing to have this at your fingertips. Having all these relationships and even if you're new to town and you're surrounded by creatives, you're surrounded by inspiration. You're surrounded by love music. This is the only town where it's, you know, 10 to 3 a.m. every single seven days a week. I think that's super important. I also think it's good to get out of it at certain times. I think, you know, like, for instance, I, I go to my farm and I'm not doing that. I've started wintering in Arizona and I just go to the desert for it. Not that I'm not riding. I mean, it's just, like, you gotta get out and get some other, like, inspiration and laugh on you. And other experiences because it can really become like this little bubble here. And I think that's the cool part about it, but also think it can get dangerous and you can get stuck, you know. Most of the streams for Tin Man are from my family. We listen to it a lot. Thank you for that. It's so good. Explain the history of writing that song. That feels like to me, blindly, I would think that that's the biggest song. You know, like, because this is the thing about listening to music is that it's so personal and you create your own playlist. You go back to the same songs. I would think that's the biggest song of all time. We've just listened to it so many times. You know, tell me just tell me the process of writing a song that's that well crafted. It was a process. We started it. We didn't start it in finish in the same day. And what I forgot to say about how to build me was I'm pretty sure and we can fact check this with Alan and Tom, but I think it took them seven years. Yeah, I've heard that. I think they wrote it, rewrote it, rewrote it, rewrote it. And I'm like, I'm so instant grad and way too impatient for that. I don't know that I could stand that. I think that takes such skill and restraint and discipline. But for Tin Man, we kind of had started it and then it was like this is too important. Give it a little bit of space. You know, and we ended up finishing it. I think we started at Marfa and finished it in Nashville. But again, writing with John and Jack, Jack's one of my longest friends and and a hero. I mean, I grew up watching his shows and I was 15 years old. And he was just a rock star. You know, like this playing these Texas honky tongs like crushing it. And Jaguar was one of my favorite songwriters and we were sound of the same label. Since we were babies, you know what I mean? And so whenever I had my year that wasn't great, 2015, John Collins, and he was like, I know a place we can disappear. And it's West Texas ain't nobody. There's no headline magazines. There's no tabloids. There's no pop. Let's just get the hell out of here. And you know, that that set this holding emotion where we go every two years and have put out, you know, a record, a raw record like that, but Tin Man was one of those songs where you where you know, you know, you have the ones where you're like like choosing Texas. I was like, all of this song. It's great. It's one of my favorite songs I've ever written, but I didn't know. But like Tin Man, you kind of had this feeling of like this is so gut-ranging. It is, it's the special one. Getting recognized as a songwriter versus an artist versus a producer. Which one are you? Mmm. Like my initial gut reaction is songwriter. And that's what I hope. Because all this will go away, like the forward-facing parts of careers, like you get tired, you dial back, new freshies come along and take your spot, whatever. And that's all good. I just feel like songwriting is the one thing that will never get old to me. Wild card was a great follow-up too. It also feels like you had at this point, there's a maturity that goes on and you can hear this arc of a of a human and they being broken down after platinum created this heart-wrenching thing and it feels like we're living in this world for a minute, you know. It all comes out in the wash, the love junkies, man. Oh man, the love junkies obsessed. I've never had a bad day or a bad right. Even if the song is like, you know, nobody's ever heard, it's just they are so magical. Hillary Lindsay, Laurie McKenna, Liz Rose. I mean, if you can't write a good song with them, then you need to quit. Like that is also, also go get a job somewhere else. If you're going to write three songs in a day, it helps to have Liz around, because she's just like, oh, we roll, but Liz is a Texas girl and so we get to roll in and like, and then Laurie's like, would you two calm down? Like, you know, and it's so much fun to be around them, just the knowledge in the room and the inspiration in the room with those three and the laughs that they've all lived. It's just, I mean, we wrote a couple of months ago just on my porch and I also love those girls because they, they just write because they love it. Like they, they, I didn't, I wasn't making a record or anything. Chris goes kind of done. So, but they were like, we want to date with you and because it's also like fun girl time. It's, they just have something really special. Yeah, they're, they're so good. Bluebird is also just, you know, just so many good songs on the sound, but Bluebird's a massive song too. And it's still today, I think, a top 10 stream song for you. Yeah, for sure. What is it about Bluebird that makes it great? I think that it is very different for me. Like, it sounded different than anything I've ever made because it's looped very heavily influenced by Luke. And obviously, Jay Joyce, so those two together, like really pushed it in a different direction than I had ever gone. And it was the first time I made a record with, with Jay. And so that already set it into this whole different tone and I'd ever explored really, but also think because of the subject matter of Bluebird and its uniqueness and the time that it came out, we really needed to hear what that said. Like, keep a lot on and you're soul in a Bluebird and your heart, we really needed to hear that. It was, you know, right in the height of 2020. So I feel like, thankful for that song during that time because I don't know that it would have had the same impact. Had we not all needed to really hear it as a, as a whole, you know. How did COVID impact your career? I mean, like, you couldn't enjoy the off time because of the panic. Like, the panic of the illness and the sadness of the deaths and all that stuff. And then on top of that, you're like, I got to pay my people and we can't play. Like, 327 days was how long I didn't play. And now I'm looking back, I'm like, oh, I got to really like live for the first time. Like, and I had just gotten married. And we had to, and he's a New Yorker and he was living in a one room cabin on a farm outside Tennessee and we were like close quarters, like, okay, well, we're really getting to start relationship now. But it was like one of those things where I wrote a bunch of songs and, you know, there were positives like for everybody. We tried to find some positives, but the absolute panic of like, will I ever play music again? Like, is who are we outside of this? It made you think about it. Like, really in depth. I don't know if you did. But like, yeah, I mean, there was like a zoom, I was like a zoom non-jump. You were not. I'm right, I cannot stay in that. I loved it and this is why I love it. - You have to wear pants. (laughing) - I never wore pants. I still never wear pants. I know I don't wear pants in public. - This is weird. I'm gonna delete that. - They're gonna take that and I'll get it. You know they are. - No, but for someone's gonna use that and make a-- - A loop. - Yeah, I never wear pants. I never wear pants. I never wear pants in public. Anyway, I was trippling down. No, I loved the idea that I could make edits. I could mute. Really think that what I wanted to say in the session and by the time I could show someone the idea, it was much more fleshed out. You know when you're in a session, I have an idea and you sing it and you're like, "Ah, that wasn't quite it." And everyone's like, "No, that's not it." And then they're on to the next thing and you're like, "No, no, I'm gonna work on it. "I'm gonna work on it." And then you say, "Well, give me one more shot." But they've already moved on. - So you would literally mute it. - Huh? I'd be like, "Just give me one second." - Oh yeah, totally cheating. But what if everyone's, you know, this is, you know, this is so anti-liss rose. But what if everyone in a session was like, "Hey, I'm gonna, I love this starch. Give me one second." - I'm so vetting. - I'm just gonna go over here with this one here. - No, it's, huh, huh, yeah, that's it. Come on, then I'm gonna sing it. Instead of being, you know, in the session, how we've been writing for our whole lives, which is just, I'm gonna vomit this idea, you know? There was something great about editing. Now granted that I didn't get a lot of like success out of that. So maybe there's something to the spontaneity of it. - But you learned something about yourself and that was cool. Like what I didn't like was that you couldn't, like here, it was delayed, you know? And I also loved the like, I loved it. It was like weirdos, you're not. Everyone's yelling in the room and everyone's like, "No, this melody, like I love the excitement of like, punches them out into the arm when they get it." Or when you say a lot and you're like, "Yes." And I had missed that like, human feeling on Zoom rides. Like I did one and it was terrible. And I was like, "I'm, I'm just gonna." Yeah, I did have a friend that was like, "Hey, I'm gonna make you start writing in person again." 'Cause you need to get out. - Oh, yeah. - And I started getting so used to it. I also could do a session with someone in London, someone in Nashville, someone in LA in the same day. - Yeah. - And that's not. - But did you like, did you have a hard time with reentry? - I did. - Yeah. - I also had two kids in like, during all this time. Like, I feel like my was prolonged. I stopped going to Nashville all the time. 'Cause it was, I was here like, you know, three times a year, at least before that. And then afterwards it was like, well, now I have kids and I built a studio and it's like life is different. - Right. - Anyway, this became my story. Palomino era. You come out of COVID though with an album. - An album about wanting to get out. - Yeah. (laughs) - What had changed in the music business from then, you know, after the few years? - I feel like a lot. I'm still learning how it changed. I feel like every single day, I don't know something that I feel like I should know because it's different than it was yesterday. And I can't explain that in a better way because there's too many examples to like get into that. But I definitely feel like all of the ways music and touring happens are completely different than from before COVID. And sometimes you feel like I get anxiety 'cause I feel like I'm trying to keep up and learn but as soon as you learn a trend or some kind of TikTok, whatever it is like that then that's over and you're moving on to the next thing or how, you know, music is consumed and like, I don't know, it's just, it's very, very different. I feel like and I don't know if it was doing that anyway and COVID just expedited that process or if COVID completely like gave people enough time to think up these other ways, I don't know. I mean, I would be interested to know what you think but all I know is it's very different and a lot of it is positive. Like the fact that like, I mean, I was stapling to our posters to phone polls outside that bars and now like you can overnight have five million people see the first song you ever wrote. Yeah. I don't think that it means that the work isn't there. You have to do the work but it's just backwards. Like, you put in your 10 years, you just put it in after you're already known. Postcards from Texas comes out, you know, of you, you continue to release albums, do you have expectations when you release an album? Do you have expectations about Crisco coming out? What are your expectations at this point in your career when you're releasing an album? I don't anymore and I feel like that's a good healthy thing because I think you just gotta always reinvent and always pivot and take a left turn and don't get too comfortable. And sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Like some records don't sell or get out there like you wish they would and you break your heart and you move the hell on and you make another one. And, you know, I know that I stayed true to the art, like on Crisco, it was 100% intentional. We went hard, it was a blast and I'm gonna do all the work, like media work that I need to do to get it heard and that's all I can do, you know, like, and I can love it no matter what happens to it because if you get to attach to like what, comparing yourself to yourself, that's a very stressful and anxiety-ridden existence, you know? In the end, I think it's, you know, 40 years from now when you look back and you see what you've accomplished in your career, it's looking back at the albums that you had the "Hutsbush" as I say. This is the, I wanna do an album like Crisco right now and then seeing it through, that's gonna be the success. - That era. - And you're not gonna look and see like what? - Not look at the numbers, I don't know, look at the feeling, you know? - No, who knows how people consume at that point? - I don't know. - Yeah. - And who knows if a song's gonna have a resurgence or, you know, some of the songs that you have that stream really well are older and some of them are newer and it's like, you can't, you don't really know, especially with like 20 years of music. - Yeah, so I say just go make what you want. - What's advice you'd give the girl who just moved to Texas, or who moved from Texas to Nashville? - Probably the same advice my mom gave me, which was day one at 16 when I was kind of like, showing interest in doing this. She said, well, you need to know who you are and you need to stick with it. No matter what, no matter what, anybody pulls you in any directions or wants to change your image or wants to change your art or wants to change who you are, know who you are and stick with it. And like, that is such a simple way to say it, but it's really been a God for me through my whole career. If there's been times I was like tempted to stray, I remembered Mama's words at the DFW when I'm 19, she's pushing me out of the nest. And it was important. - Well, thank you guys so much. Thank you Amazon Music for supporting us and coming out here. Thank you guys. - Thank you.