Ep. 269: RAYE | How She Escaped Her Record Deal and Became a Superstar

Welcome to And The Writer Is. I am your host, Ross Golan. Today is in a national superstar. Right with one foot in the Smokey Jazz Club and one foot in the Cluby Club Club. She's a songwriter songwriter. She fought to own her voice literally, her songs literally and her masters literally and in doing so, became one of the most influential advocates for songwriters and artists in the whole wide world. All the way from London, England, this artist has a point to share with her collaborators and the writer is red. Hello, what an intro. Hi, I'm so excited. It is. How are you? You gave a speech at that, Ivers and I was giving a speech at the the Sona Awards out here with the exact same subject about splits and so we'll get into all that fun stuff. But the first thing I want you to do is brag about your family. brag about my family. Yep, we can do that. So my sisters, Emma and absolutely, who are two ridiculously talented artists, who actually both started out as songwriters also, which is really amazing. Abby, absolutely, started getting her first cuts around like 15-16 and was able to leverage herself into bigger rooms and she just made everywhere she goes, she just blows everyone's mind and then Emma more recently has started writing. She just got some amazing cuts with the flow girls. Yeah, and they're just both so so talented. And then my parents, mom and dad, dad and her mom and dad, which in theory might sound like a disaster, but I'm so blessed that it just almost feels like it was meant to be they're just so brilliant. I mean, that's what I wanted to have you talk about it because I don't think it works for most people. Right. And to have sisters that are also pursuing a similar career, I say that because everybody's career is different. Yeah. But to have all of you guys doing this together feels like, you know, it's a dream scenario, right? It really is a dream scenario. I mean, don't you guys get on each other's nerves sometimes or no? I mean, all families, you know, go through those things, but we spent like, we were on tour for the first half of this entire year from January till May. And you know, my parents had their own tour bus. It was hilarious. It's so weird. But you know, did you ever go over there for dinner? Did you go over to their bus? I didn't. The schedule was pretty hardcore, but what I will say is like, you know, being on tour is hard, especially for that length of time and being able to have your family right there, like literally on the hard days, my sisters walk out on stage and come and sing this song, "Joyvy" did together. And I'm just looking to my left and my right. I'm like, oh, it's just so, so awesome. It's really quite special, I think. Yeah. Yeah. I love the joys the single. It's one of those things where I think it's really predictable that that should be the next single, but you know, it's not necessarily so. No. Yeah. The choice to put both of your sisters on the song for you guys to collaborate on that and then to do music videos together and all that. I mean, just, I have, you know, two kids, I'm watching them grow up and I'm just, I hope you guys stay close. Yeah. You know? Yeah. I mean, there comes a phase though in like the, the Adolesce, the early Adolescence that there will be conflict. It's inevitable. Yeah. But you've become adults and it all works out. Do you feel an obligation to be a role model in that relationship? I definitely think, you know, being in the music industry for as long as I have, you know, I feel a sense of protect, protect big sister, protectiveness over my sisters. And, you know, I've enjoyed some tough things and I don't want them to go through those things. And I think that, you know, I've been able to share my experience with them, you know, but also there's an element of just, you have to go out there and learn your craft, you know, so, you know, encouraging them not to cut corners and do all the steps, you know, but I definitely think it's worked out perfectly the way that it has, yeah. You also have a multicultural family. Yeah. So tell me about that. And in a industry that is, you know, I don't want to say it's particularly divided, but it tends to be, it's just that you have an interesting genetic makeup. Yeah. To do it, but it explains all the varieties of music that you're into. Right. Yeah, we were definitely raised on so many different sounds and feelings and cultures. My mom is Ghanaian Swiss, but she was born and raised in Ghana. She didn't move to England until she was maybe in her 20s. So that culture was a very large part of, you know, growing up. And then we have a huge Swiss family who speaks Swiss German and, you know, as a whole other vibe. No. Sadly, I speak only English. Yeah. I always, I would always argue, I have a multi ethnic family that speaks a lot of languages. And I always argued that the lazy, like isn't music another language though. Yeah. Yeah. But they give me, they give me that, they give me that, but I know it's, you know, it's a kind of a kapa, but it is. Yeah. And, and then on my dad's side, he's from up north. So middle England, Yorkshire. You know, but was my granddad, I speak about this before, you know, wanted to be a songwriter when he was younger, didn't work out. My dad moved to London to be in a band, didn't work out. Yeah. So my grandma, my mum's side, loves music passionately. There's always been a passion and love for music. But my parents worked very normal jobs. My dad worked in insurance for 20 years. And my mum worked in the NHS, which is like in the mental health sector for 20 years. So yeah, it was a very, my parents worked really hard. So they were out at work, you know, till 7, 8. So grandma picked us from school and brought us home. There's my African grandma. So my Ghanaian grandma, she moved, from Ghana, moved into the family house to raise us. And I think that's part of the reason why I have such a huge love for her because she just sacrificed a quarter of her life to raise us. She's the voice on, where's my husband? She starts her voice there. I love her so much. You also feature your grandpa. So it's not like, you're literally featuring your family on this, you know, it's just fantastic. But it's weird. From the perspective of your grandfather and your dad now, they are the opposite of failed songwriters. Yeah. And Granddad's so proud. And also it's like, there's a real pride in in, you know, he was burnt by the industry, you know, he was really hurt. And he lived in London. I mean, this is a story that you've talked about before a bit. But yeah, what can you tell us more about it? Because this is an interesting story. Yeah. Your grandfather lived in London, right? No, or he, my granddad lived in Yorkshire, middle England. Yeah. And he wanted to make it as a songwriter. So he would write songs on the piano, score them, and record it all to tape. And then he'd put them in boxes and send them to record labels, post them to record labels in London, hoping that someone would play his tape, hear the song, like it, contact him and bring him down to London to live his dream. Unfortunately, and it was the case back in the day, so many, so, so many songwriters were just absolutely done so day. You know, you have people who wrote some of the most iconic riffs of all time, got paid 200 quid. And then, you know, you're sat there, like, wait, this doesn't, you know, and yeah, the same happens to my granddad. He sent a song. And it was released two years later, with no credit, no contact. And it completely broke his heart. And there was nothing you could do about it. He had no money. He's a working class guy from Middlingland. No, it couldn't afford a lawyer. No one's done about it now. Have you looked into it? I have looked into it. It's, it's just like financially, I just don't know. And if the evidence is substantial enough, because the evidence was sent off, you know, all he has is a songwriting book with things dotted down. And yeah, it's it would be a giant, you know, thing. Have you ever experienced, I had one experience with actual theft? It was like one of my first cuts. Really? What happened? A song can start anywhere in your bedroom, at a piano, in the back of a tour bus. And it can end up everywhere. On playlist, [BLANK_AUDIO] Wherever it goes, you deserve to get paid and that's where PRS for music comes in. For over 110 years, PRS has protected the rights of songwriters, composers, and publishers. Today, the Not for Profit Society represents over 190,000 members worldwide. 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I've been testing out a new tool called Variations that lets producers create new versions of any Splice sample that adjusts structure, key and BPM while preserving the sounds core characteristics. That's because every sample in Splices licensed catalog of more than 3 million is traceable to its original creator. The original sample creator is compensated each time their sound is used as a source and each time the variation is downloaded. This means that there are more opportunities to use the samples you already love and more ways for creators to get paid. Variations is available to try now in Splices Sounds Plugin. Check it out. Thank you for sponsoring. I had one experience with actual theft. Really? What happened? I guess I can talk about it. It was with this band Emblem 3 that was the follow-up to 1D and I, like, you know, Savin was the EP of it and so I just gone through Middlingland with 1D to work on this song potentially with them, you know, the Derbyshire and all of that, you know, and we come back and it turns that Emblem 3 wants to cut it, they're going to make it the second single. The first one was called Chloe, I think, or something like that. And this song is called 3,000 miles and the day it's about to come out, I get a phone call saying, "Hey, you know, this song came out." I was like, "That didn't, you know, no, it came out. It's out, out." It can't be. It's called 3,000 light years. I was like, "Well, then it's a different song." Right. It's just somebody sending it because it's the word 3,000. Right. You should listen to this. No. This artist who is signed through a major producer, they had asked for outside songs. We sent it and they were like, "We want to, you know, we want to cut it." And they cut it and we're like, "Not very, like, not what we want." Yeah. You know, like, "We're going to. " It was a song to approve or not. So we respectfully decline. Right. They changed the lyric, the only lyric to that and they used the track and everything. So it's the entire, like, literally theft. And they ended up getting a license in TV shows. It was like a thing. And so, and this song's about to come out and it's one of my first cuts. And the kind of evidence trail you had to have to be like, "Hey, we're going to take this down throughout everything." Yeah. And then, of course, you know, the band releases it and her fans are like, "They stole this on." Oh, that's so infam. That's infam. I think when you have all these people who sue over a potential interpolation because a musicologist out there somewhere says that it's the same weaponizing musicology against their own writers, against their own artists. And then of these lawsuits that are questionable at best, many of which fail just because someone's trying to make a dollar. Yeah. And then you have actual theft where your grandfather sends in a song and then somebody steals it. And there's almost, you know, then you're trying to legitimize this claim when that one's actually a legitimate claim. Yeah. You know, now that you're a star, do you end up having to deal with this crap more than what you did before or has it been, good, your songs are so unique. You know that it's a little less, you know, presumably you deal with it less than some other artists. Look, I think it's natural in kind of culture, you in music culture. Someone goes out there and creates something really fresh and really exciting. And then, you know, everyone goes into their sessions and before you start a session, someone's playing the song like, oh, this is so like, you know, and, you know, there's only so many chords. There's only so many progressions, especially in pop music, you know, there's only so much, you know, and I get it. The lines can be really blurry and stuff like that, but, you know, music is life absorbed and then regurgitated. And I guess that's going to include all of it. So I kind of, you know, you hear stuff, maybe that you could be like, oh, maybe this person has listened to one of my songs and gone and made something, but I don't necessarily feel offended by that. I think more like, oh, okay, I can see what they did then. That's really cool. I think maybe I would be upset if it felt like a direct rip, like a really explicit, you know, but I don't feel like I've experienced that, yeah. You know, when you have a song like, that I hate the way I look today, where it's, you know, jazz is bass and blues, it's 12, you know, 12 bar blues, and you have these songs that feel what makes it great is, you know, is lyrics that aren't pastiche, so they're current, and they're touching on a feel that is, is of the world and should be shared by all. Yeah. You know, and for somebody who's, who's using, you know, so many jazz and classical references, I always use like the Ravel and Chikovsky were famous for sharing, refrains, and then they would reharmonize the refrains underneath. And that was like the thing that they would do with each other to show like kind of who's better. Wow. So it wasn't litigious just because instead it was like, you know, and they weren't banking off each other. It was just a badass move of musicians being like, I see what you did there, and I want to do this, you know, it's like the weirdest beef of all time. I don't know if they did. I assume they didn't hate each other, but to you, what is a songwriter? To me, a songwriter is someone who creates music or creates a lyric. It's a really beautiful process on this album actually that I brought a lot of my band-in to write with, you know, this album, The Top Lines, I took the task on of wanting to say things of my own voice, so I didn't collaborate in terms of the top line and the lyrics, but when it came to the music, I wanted just to be surrounded by musicians and musicians that I love. And, you know, so my band credit is writers, as I believe, you know, was right, and we, you know, we got in a room, we jammed, you know, someone would play something on a horn, I'll be like, oh, let's expand on that, that's beautiful, oh, let's build that, oh, amazing. Okay, could we all do that, someone take the top part, great, and it would kind of, before even the top line in the lyrics of form, we've got this just beautiful sounds forming. And to me, that's writing, you know, it's a blurry line for some people in that regard, but you were creating, I think when you're creating the music together, yeah, that is a different scenario than a pre-existing, pre-existing music or original music being added to a pre-existing song. Yeah. Those are all separate. Yeah, and that's where it's hard for people to accept that if you added the horn line after the song was written, well, you know, do you, do you give that person songwriting credit, even if it's an identifiable refrain? I think that's where it gets really tricky, you know, because I think it's about integrity and fairness, to be honest, I think if you replace something that's written, that's different, you know, if the music is already written or created, if you've written something like this eight bar phrase, and then you've got to play who goes in, play the eight bar phrase, but changes a couple notes and all of a sudden it feels like, oh, you know, you've got to be about it. That's at least how I see it. After an exceptional vocal arranger, the person who's going into all those for those years. Presumably you went in, you, after you wrote the top line, you're now doing the harmonies, the calls and responses, you're doing 16 vocals here there. Maybe you're getting some neighboring rights because they keep your vocals in it, whatever it is. But you undoubtedly shape the vocal arrangement for all the people who get production for playing drums. Do you think that the production for vocal arrangement, that a vocal arranger should also be credited as a producer? I think that's bad. No? I'm a singer. I think it bothered me that you'd be, wait a minute, I'm going to do the entire vocal arrangement. You're probably going to keep my vocal in there also. And then I'm not credited maybe as a vocal producer or as a producer, or there's no points for that part, it feels. I feel passionately about understanding the difference between the treatment of producers and the treatment of writers. I think it goes back to, and I've said this before on that producers when you complete something are allowed to charge a fee for their time, for their completion of the work. And that's not the same for a writer or vocal producer in that standpoint. I just really kind of believe the top line is just equally as valuable as the production. I think you can split it into the three, music, melody, lyric. When an audience goes to see a piece of live music and they stand in the crowd, what are they taking in? That bass that hits them, you know, the music comes in and then all of a sudden the song comes in, people start singing along, all of these components are as important as each other. And I think it can be quite frustrating that I feel like the song right seems to me to be getting the shortest end of the stick in terms of credit and payment and acknowledgement. I think there's even typically, I don't know if I'm wrong in saying this, but, you know, we see typically a producer is a man, typically, you know, sat in the middle of the room, one thing in the center and, you know, I spent time as a songwriter of being the little girl in the corner like, I have an idea or I'll jump on the mic or, you know, and just trying to navigate and just be polite and blah, blah, blah. But I think there's, you know, for some reason in the music business side, we don't seem to believe that a songwriter would deserve a fee, you know, someone who's in there directing how the vocals song how it's delivered, writing what's being sang, what's going to, you're going to go to a concert and sing along to in the first place, you know, we don't believe that a songwriter should have a master royalty point, but producer should. Now, I just don't understand that in my mind, because I do believe that all these different seats are as important as each other for the song that gets consumed and loved by everyone. And I think I have a really hard time wrapping my head around that. The producer having full ownership of the master recording that's created feels a little strange because they're the one sitting at the desk. But the idea that the contribution of even in the creation phase, that's what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about additive, additional instrumentation, production, and even the additional vocals, all that stuff is stuff that's added to it. But to have people in a room creating something and then saying, well, the writer, everyone leaves with a day of demo or the day after I've produced some records and I always try to take care of the co-writers because I've spent most of my time as a co-writer. As a co-writer. So you see it, you want to set precedent, but this is one of the things that you've done really well set precedent. And so I just want you to explain a little bit. I know we kind of went into the weeds and I really want to talk about the you as an artist as a writer as well. But this is your fault for being an advocate. So sorry, deal with it. But you know, you've made choices. You are your own boss. You are an independent artist who chooses to take care of the songwriters. Is that even a question whether that's a difficult thing as a to make the choice to financially split up your pie to share with the writers? I just think it feels like the logical fair thing. I think, yeah, it's just right. I wanted my band to have points on the records that they contributed to. How do you deal with it when you're the writer on an artist that is not you? You know, you're we're writing with major artists. You started as a writer. I mean, so you know, all together. But now you have the cloud and you have the skill to be writing hits for a lot of people, you know, and you have. So how do you walk into a room when you don't own the point structure? I think what I'm very fortunate in that, you know, I can kind of have my own back, you know, and I can kind of, you know, like you said, we do have power as songwriters over what we create. We're just kind of bullied into feeling like we don't. And I mean, how many times does that happen to you? You know, you get a call from something you need to, you can't hold, you know, rar scary, scary, scary, you know, and I'm really just in a very peaceful, calm way. I'm just not down to be bullied anymore, you know, and I think I just hold those lines and look, you know, when I'm an up and coming songwriter and this is like my livelihood, you know, you can see because you don't want to upset these people who help you get in rooms or have hold positions of power. So you give in, you know, and I'm really fortunate that my solo career is going well and, you know, I'm not, I'm not making decisions based on that anymore. So I have a fortunate place of leverage of I can just say no and be at peace, you know, and be like, if you don't want, if you don't like my terms, then the answer's no. And I'm so, I'm so blessed and lucky to be able to sit into that, sit in that place now because I know what it is to sit on the other side of it. I know it's so hard to think of, so hard to think Raid didn't have the power because your skill was there before the, you know, the commercial success. Right. And that's one of the things that I try to explain to up and coming right is there's there's a song I had come out of about a year ago. It was really big DJ, really nice guy. The manager came in and said individually to all of us, hey, these are the splits. Right. And I went to the, and I created a chain with all the writers. He told you what the, so right. So I had said it started a chain and this is the advice I would give. All writers on, on a song, especially when there's more than two. Yeah. Even if they're two, yeah. Started a chain, yeah, said to everybody, hey, I got this email, which means you guys all got it too. Yeah. This is what they're proposing. Yeah. But I want all of us to discuss it and agree. And I will respond on behalf of all of us saying we approved or we want to do blank and response. We approved them because they were fair splits. But it's set a tone. Yeah. That we are coming into the management saying, thank you. We have, we, and I, it's CCed all their teens on it. We accept these because we feel like that is a fair contribution. We're excited for this song to come out. But I about that manager from then on is like, okay. Oh, shit. Like transparency is key. Yeah. You know, it's like that openness. When you give advice to, you know, younger you at this point, what do you say to a 18 year old writer who's now trying to pursue doing music? I'd say there's an element of pick your battles. There's an element of, you know, I think it's important to know like when to put your foot down and when to be like, no, okay. We'll fight another day. You know, it's hard to say, you know, the advice of don't take it personally because it's obviously so music is so emotional. It's so it's you put, you pull yourself in there. You know, well, especially how you write, if you're writing those lyrics and you're going to give them that, that's, it's pulling from somewhere. It's a little different than if you're playing, you know, if you're playing an instrument, you don't necessarily feel the same amount. And after that, you wouldn't have spent the time on it, but don't there's a difference, right? I don't know, you know, I think even just like, you know, like coming up with some sort of riff that you've been practicing at home, you poured into it, such a heart on fire, you know, and you're going to be like, I'm going to give this towards this song that we're creating, you know, and then to be disrespected or undermined or just overlooked at the end of that process can be really gut-wrenching. It can be really hard, especially when you're young, you know, we're young. wide-eyed with huge streams. And you know, the business is harsh. It's, it's cutthroat. And I, in a kind of messed up way, kind of feel like maybe I wouldn't say anything because I needed to learn what I needed to learn. And looked a song where I was then compared to the song where I am now came like such a long way in my opinion in terms of my skillset and my understanding of music because I felt such an immense pressure to prove myself. It felt such a huge pressure to really want to be taken seriously. I'm respected. I wanted to earn enough cuts that, you know, people I would walk into a room in my opinion would be, you know, if you're like, let's hear what she is to say. She's got some good cuts. You know, I wanted to do that. So, I think that that spurring to prove myself was a large amount of maybe why what I've worked as hard as I did. You can't rush it either. No matter how hard you want a short cut, every time I meet somebody who's like 22 and feels that they missed the boat. I'm like, what are you talking about, man? 22, Mr. Barton. That's crazy. Because you see somebody on, you know, somebody comparing despair. Somebody's on, somebody's looking at someone on TikTok. Comparison is the enemy. Yeah, yeah. Hard, no. If there was any advice I could give to my own self, no, comparisons. No comparisons. Just let, just be you. Everyone's got a different journey. Every journey looks so different. Yeah. Comparison's the, yeah. When you have a grandfather who's an aspiring musician, you know, this is the other thing that I was thinking about that after we talked about that is, you know, when I first started, you know, I just remember my mom telling somebody that I was a struggling musician and I said, no, I'm just a musician. And the further I did the struggling, but you didn't have to add that salt in the wood. But that's what how people describe it when they're aspiring as struggling, but like, it's real about, right? Yeah. Just hurt. But the thing is, just, and I just, I was talking about opening old wounds. Now, I'm going to just be like, struggling musician versus aspiring musician is so glass, half empty, glass, half full. But it's the way people talk about it. Yes. Of course. And in reality, it's like, the whole point of the, if there's one thing I learned from 10 years of this podcast, it's that I don't care how successful somebody may appear commercially or otherwise. Yeah. You said when you walked in, it's been a long time since you've been in a studio. Yeah. That sounds like somebody who's like aspiring, not somebody who's like, you know, you, you know, you walk into a room with instruments. They're like, oh, what am I not making music? Because you aspire still. Yeah. You know, when I went independent, there was such a label on like, you know, failed artist, you know, it, and you can choose to like accept that narrative. Or it's like, I was to going again, or, you know, and that is really interesting. It's aspiring musician, struggling musician. Yeah. You know, in the, in the label, a fail versus independent is a, yeah. But, you know, we, we get to have the final say on that. Again, that's just noise. We have to block out, right? Yeah. Oh, 100%. Yeah. At what point did you realize that, or at what point did your dad and grandfather realize that, that they were in trouble, that these kids are going to end up being, are going to go and try to do this too. I was pretty tenaciously extremely headstrong, 100% decided, no talking me out of it at 10 years old, that I was going to be a recording artist. That's what I wrote in my like, you know, in school, they like make you fill out, what do you want to be in your own? I literally put recording artist. And it, how do you ever been in a studio? Not yet. No, no. So where did that come from? How do you even know what a recording artist is at that point? Probably just, you know, super young when I started writing songs, it was about like seven. What was the first song you wrote? It was a song called Change My World. How does it go? I wrote it from the perspective of a homeless man. We were out in London for a day trip, you know, we were like looking at the tourist sites. My mom and dad are taking us up to town. And there was a man, it was a cold day, there was a homeless man sitting outside. And I was just really upset by it. So I went home and wrote a song from his perspective. The lyrics were, sorry, I'm not laughing. You know, when you're just like, well, are we really going back there? I'm not going to sing it. Um, the lyrics were cold and tired and hungry. Yeah. Absolutely. It's absolutely hard. No, we'll see. We got a long conversation ahead. We'll see if we were, we're just getting started. We might get out. Okay. So how did the lyrics go? They went cold and tired and hungry. Life is just so hard for me. All I want is a peaceful world. I look up to the sky and my thoughts wonder why I get down on my knees. Um, something, something, there's a what there's a world that I need change my, well, yeah, it wasn't great, but it was an interesting perspective from a seven year old kid. It's wild, right? With that, that some people are just, they're meant to do it. You know, did you continue to write songs throughout the process? You know, was there ever a time you didn't write songs? No, I caught the bug very, very young. Any opportunity I had to write something for I would. I had, you know, some school talent shows. I wrote original songs. It was one time I freestyle with a song. Like I was in year five. Like it's just like what, what was going on there? I had some rough chords planned and I just went, I winged it. No one knew. Um, you know, I was, um, year six, the levers. Um, day I wrote a song for our class. Everyone came around to my house. We had like a mattress. Uh, you know, the, you know, Ikea, like the wooden slats as our booths do way over the top. And we assigned everyone a line, a lyric. Um, it was catch those catch those memories. It was called so cheesy. Um, year seven wrote two original songs for the talent show. Any opportunity I had to write something I was doing it. Yeah, from a really young age. The Brit school is obviously really well respected. Uh, shout out to, uh, Alster Weber, who I know is, um, working on some stuff to raise the money for Brit school during the Ivers last time and, uh, and, uh, obviously, uh, his dad. Yeah. Um, explain what the Brit school is to those who don't know what it is. So the Brit school is a free music school, free performing arts school. Um, and it is basically a place where a third of your curriculum, um, it can be focused on your chosen strand. As soon as I found out what the Brit school was, I was about 11 when I found out what it was because of Leonid Lewis on the X factor, had said she went to Brit school and I was like, she's a singer. She's on, she's doing it. I need to go to that school. Um, then obviously finding out how many insane artists went there. Um, it's interesting because most, not most all other music schools or performing arts schools, um, in London aren't free. They are privatized. You have to pay money. Um, so this is like kind of like the one hub. I don't know if that's still the case, but it was at the time. This is like the one place that, um, you don't have to be rich to go to the school and get training in your, in your acquired field. Um, yeah. And my life became focused on how do I get into this school? Um, I went and learned my grades. I learned different instruments to be able to have a stronger CV. Um, you know, it's a pretty solid audition process. Um, they had teacher. I still can't call him Stuart. I call him Mr. Warner. I call him sir. Um, you know, I remember him on the first day being like, this isn't a fame school. You're not here to, you know, do that. You're here to learn your skills. And I think it's a place that obviously it's gay notoriety for having so many incredible actors, um, musicians, artists, um, theatre, you know, people of all of those expressions. So, you know, it kind of attracts people like myself as a young girl who was like artist, plan A, no plan B, I need to get into this school. And I learned so much there. They give you kind of some of your projects are like one of our projects was performing, you know, in a pub, the Norbury pub down the road, but you have to do, you know, you have to rehearse your set, you know, you have to plan a performance with a group of people. Um, you know, it was, um, you kind of get that experience. Also, there's a real competitive energy for a bunch of 14-year-olds hungry with a dream. You kind of have that natural like, well, so it gives you a taste of the vibe, really. Adding adolescent life, but then adding career competition in it. Yeah. And I was so annoying when I was younger, like, oh, what made you annoying? Because like any opportunity that there was to sing, I was like, me? I'll do it. Can I do it? Like, I was like that. I was either like in math class. No, in math class, I was really like, to a calendar brand. No, I was so, I got such a bad kid. I was either ex equals, I was either really rude in class, which was really bad. I was. I was like one of those sassy like cordon girls like why I used to get sent out all the time like I was just Hi, but I wanted to focus on things I care about And I was a little shit and things I didn't so I apologize to anyone who was in my math class Were you a jazz vocalist in school then was that something you studied or is jazz vocal something that you've learned over her time On your own. Yeah, I learned from from listening. Yeah to Um All my favorite artists. Yeah, Nacking call was like one of the first songs I've learned let there be love But I didn't really have the vibrato's or a lot control over my voice. I think that's something Honestly, I'm gonna say since I started Toring, you know sick last six years Me singing then to me now has come a really long way um would you ever rerecord the music you you did before that? No because no because I think once you've done it and you put it out Move on and for me. That's what I like to do you the um You know, do you consider yourself a jazz vocalist? Because there's so many there's you know clearly there's a lot of it especially What as we get further down the jazz is becoming louder and louder in it. Yeah. Yeah. So are you a jazz artist? I would say um I would say I Yes, and no maybe I would say and I think I've largely now adopted those kind of jazzy inflections and my duh really like truly Um vibrato into kind of like my pop music so I guess kind of Yes in a way Yeah, but I don't want to offend People who've had like actual proper proper jazz training in that way Because I have a I mean I studied jazz vocals and I can't do what you can do Come on and so many of the great Jazz singers were not Well-schooled in it they became schooled in it by touring for you know a million years. So Give yourself a break. You know you're earning it the real way Hey guys real quick over 90% of you are not subscribers to this channel And following the channel allows us to keep bringing you incredible guests each week And growing the channel to offer more of your favorite writers and producers and industry folk especially artists It gives us a platform to tell their stories to you if you can hit that subscribe button Thank you now back to your episode When you think of jazz vocalists are you in the Ella or I guess we can go in order but do you do like a Billy and Ella, Dina, Nina, like who's your who are your people? I'd say my people people people like my top three are Ella, yeah, of course, Nina And Dina yeah, and I when I tell you I spent like I soaked I just listened Over and over and over again. I think Ella's probably taught me a lot about How to sing in that kind of jazzy style. So do you write? So the the runs that you do specifically on this last album That feel scat ish. Are you scatting that? Is that improv or do you man? Yeah, are you gonna do blue notes sets Are you gonna go and start doing some sets that are like solely jazz and if you did would you write your own standards? Or would you be doing covers? Well, we've done a few. I love to do covers. I mean, I love I love to do and you know Honestly in an ideal world you do a giant show and then you do a little jazz club. Yeah, you're a giant little jazz club That's like in my happy place But you know, I think there's a real beautiful freedom That once you feel assured in your instrument um, and you know as musicians we're You know, we create we freestyle we we add lib we go for it and I think I feel that so I think maybe why I love jazz so much is It doesn't have to be perfect. I think Maybe you feel those pressure in other genres Especially in a run like to hit perfectly you know In in another circumstance I think I would feel fear but in jazz like if you hit a bum note you just and bend it and just take it some rails or like say that sucks Let's go again, you know, there's a real freedom in it and I really love that so much When you graduated from the bridge school it was pretty quick after that that you had some success Uh-huh What was your ego like when you left school? That's such a good question It was a mixture of things. I had released some music whilst I was still at school And by yourself Yeah, some solo music um, it was a project called welcome to the winter because of it was my mix tape um, you know and I was experiencing Feedback real-time and the cool kids in school For giving me a little bit of a hard time about it. I felt really um You know in that way just like I knew that I needed to get out of school and like Get away from that Um, I found that quite difficult and then I remember coming to LA for the first time I remember knowing that when I finished school I started working with my manager at 14 years old So I was doing sessions during school Friday after school Saturday Sunday So I was kind of like quite deep into the songwriting Do sessions collect songs in previous skills kind of life Um, I remember coming to LA for the first time and and we we got here around Grammy week You know, I remember being in Soho house And I remember you know having this kind of oversized thrift shop jumper on and You know my hair done in this interesting hairstyle and I just remember like Oh, it will it really hit me I was having conversations and like no one was looking me in the eye. It was very like Yeah, so what do you do? And I was like oh my god, what's this like it was is that welcome to LA or is that welcome to LA during the Grammys? That's what I'm or is it welcome to LA I think it was welcome to the music industry like you know It was me with I had like one car. I just got one car um all cried out. It was number three in the UK uh a dance pop hit And but I had no cuts on my belt. I just realized I got to the city and I was like I'm gonna have to work To to get anyone to take me seriously around here. That's how it really felt Well, it's the first moment. I know we're gonna jump forward a bit What's the first moment where people didn't move their eyes from here You know, honestly, it's been such a My journey's really been like that, you know, it's really been like You know, I had um a big dance hit um I had a song called by the side which you know, I've really struggled with that process because They I didn't write the song is the only song actually I've released that I hadn't written I had some changes. I made to the song That they hated you know, it was humble pie off the humble pie in that world I had to shake my voice into a way that Wasn't me it was a hard experience. It was bit that's being a dance feature You know, it wasn't about me or my vision or my opinion It was about you're there to sing sing the song like this get it done The end. Why did you do it? Well, I had a lot of pressure at the time from my My label on my team being like If you do this song Then you're gonna be able to do more of the music that you want to do Because what did you sign? 17 so it was after you done the the first the solo album you leave school and then you did the mix tape. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah You get signed to You know getting signed to a label what's your experience? You know walking in and you know you finally get signed Do you feel like and it feels like finally when you're 17? You know, yeah, especially if you wanted it from 10 I mean that's seven years of wanting something. Yeah, and you get signed How sure were you were you that you were gonna be a star? You know what my signing day was a bit of a mess actually um What happened? I Was without naming names um, I was like so like three days before I'm about to sign my record deal right and I'm I've met with one of a huge music executive right who Is promised me the sun and the stars, right? Yeah, there's an artist that was super fan of um and They said to me We've played this artist your music and they've agreed to endorse you Um, you know I'm literally like are you joking? What like I'm literally like My life's gonna change. I've made it. I'm on top of the world You know, I just finished a gig and I remember just literally going to bed that night literally like you know someone out those like Teen movies like we like like looking at this guy like oh um, and then fast forward two days later This big music exactly it calls me directly and basically the idea was it was supposed to be a collaborative deal between the UK and the US. It was going to be a JV or whatever. This big music executive calls me and he's like you can't sign this contract and I'm like what do you mean? And he's on the phone to me for about an hour. I'm so overwhelmed. I don't know what's going on. I'm 17 years old. I'm in a session. I pause the session. I even put it on speaker. I had Joel campus one of my really good friends sat opposite and I'm on the phone and I'm like and he's like you can't sign it. If you sign it then I'm going to step back. I'm going to withdraw my, it was so pulled the rug off under my feet. The phone call ends. I'm so confused. That evening I'm supposed to go to the universal building to sign my contract which was supposed to be this amazing JV I was promised and I'm left with a decision. If I didn't sign my record deal in the universal building that evening the contract was going to be withdrawn. But then if I waited for this big executive who has been known to put people in these kind of gridlock record deals with management included taking audio gross profits. I was literally stood outside the universal building in floods of tears with my parents either sign of me. I was like I don't know what I'm going to do. What do I do? It was just then and there decided I can't. I'm going to walk into this building. I'm a British artist. I don't want to miss my shot. I don't want to waste my shot. I don't want to be stupid. I don't want to make the wrong decision. So I went into the building and signed the contract. But I was drying my tears. You know, wasn't the happy fluffy day. That thought was going to be three days previous. So that was my welcome into the, to the system music. That sucks. It's so dark because there's a proper channel for those conversations. And that isn't the proper channel. No, they directly called me like I'm a child. They knew what was happening. Looking back at it now, I know that big artist never heard any of my songs. Did you ever ask that big artist? I didn't but I got a chance to spend some time with this big artist and it was never brought up. So I'm assuming I should have asked actually. How crazy is that? It's like the most, this is what's annoying is that I defend the industry often because I do think it's populated generally by good people who are trying their best. But as somebody said, it's like walking into a hospital and nobody, there are no none of the doctors have a degree in medicine. So you just have these like random people are like, I work at the hospital and you're like, are you supposed to be doing surgery right now? You know, it's all these people who are, you know, I mean, these people in particular, they knew what they were doing. They wanted that I know this guy is a very big prolific guy. He knows how to negotiate. He knows how to get what he wants, you know, I know I was just a part of that stuff happens all the time. Yeah, that was just my turn. It's yeah, it's just part of the deal. Now being a, you know, this will take a long time if we go all the cuts from that all the way to finding your independence as an artist. But the, what's the shortest version of going from that moment of signing that deal to signing a distribution deal for yourself? What happened in there? Like it's a huge, it's a huge amount of time. A huge amount of time. And lots of features. Yeah. And lots of like, not releasing music. And then, you know, but to get the agency to say, all right, this isn't working out to I'm going to take a shot at this independence. Tell me about generally speaking what that emotional roller coaster is like. Well, it was okay, pen to paper. Okay, let's go. Let's give it my best. Started making a record. That kind of got interrupted by if you do this dance feature, it's going to help you do the record you want to do. Do the dance feature. Do another dance feature. Second dance feature does really well. Jack's Jones, you don't know me. It was a really big song across Europe and the UK. I start going out with Jack's Jones and singing at some of his gigs, doing promo, kind of getting trying to get my name out there that way. I then find a giant pink ponytail and, you know, start a new kind of chapter. I sampled a song. I sampled jarroll or shanty. Always on time in a song called decline, which ended up being my biggest solo hit at the time in the UK. It went top 20. It was top 20. I think 20. And, you know, started doing some headline shows. Then, you know, a little around that, the guy who signed me left. So it was kind of getting more complicated. I did, was doing a ton of sessions, really focusing heavily on my songwriting career and my art career, trying to use my songwriting cuts to be able to get into bigger rooms for my artist project, you know. Then it just started going down, you know, and then there was just, it was just getting really tricky. It was my fourth, fifth attempt at making album number one. And it was just then that time, and they were like, no, we're not going to prove the album. And then I just got, was just really just really upset, furious. You know, and. COVID and all that stuff happened, yeah. So we end up going separate ways, take my time to recover. And then, you know, with my dad as my manager, went out looking for a distribution company, a label, anything, just to have that support in releasing a record. And actually just found, you know, a lot of just polite declines. We were looking at the independent, you know, route, the distribution process. And honestly, every other door was just closing, closing, closing. How did that make you feel as a, you know, in this next phase, did you feel like there were options still, or were you running out of options in your head, or did it not even affect you? No, there was, there was literally one option, and it was human resources, J.I.V. God bless that man. Yeah. It was one single man who said, "I love this album." The album was there, you know, who said, "I love this album, I believe in it. I would be honored to be your distribution partner." I was, I thank God, because no one else was down. Ironically, it wasn't even me that was a problem. It was the music. People just didn't like the album, but everyone we were playing it to, just didn't like it. They thought it was a niche, or, you know, to, to risky. I get it. But, yeah, so God bless J.I.V. who, yeah, it became our distribution partner. We released the first song, second song, and we released the third song, and that was escapism, and then everything changed after that. It was pretty amazing. Yeah, it's so insane. I mean, so my 21st century blues is it's a good example when most songwriters, most singers, struggle with making a choice when they make an album to that the songs are part of a compilation. The records are part of a compilation. That's what makes an album, right? And it feels like a movie. None of the songs don't belong. They all feel like they move a story forward, and it feels like the curation of that is so skilled. That, you know, when you think about when it came out, there were some major labels where a bunch of people got let go, because they had artists who also had albums that were really cool, that were culturally progressive, but didn't have the, you know, this is your poppy, this is your bubblegum single. And when I listened to that, in retrospect, of course escapism is a hit, but it's only because I know from this, from this side. But if you listen to that album, you'd be like, at least you'd be like, this is an incredible movie. Like why wouldn't somebody want to distribute that? But it takes a distributor and a label that has some foresight. Seeing the success of escapism is obviously like undeniable, and it does change a lot. It's so raw and the lyric and the production, did you ever feel like, oh, I didn't realize that many people were going to listen to how vulnerable those lyrics are. I mean, it's one thing when you release a song and, you know, those the the mix tape you have a bunch of songs in there that are now that have you know five million streams that's very different than a billion yeah more than a billion humans yeah have to or have listened to that and you know what I think like massively is interesting you know I think I do really believe there needs to be more patience with artists especially this pressure on the first thing that's created needs to just be huge like we set like look at Tanashay right now like yeah my girl is about to just have a huge moment with this album as she absolutely deserves it sometimes it takes time like but this idea of oh it didn't work so we'll find someone else is pretty just like really it's just I don't know if that's I mean I know that's not the way um and you know a really beautiful thing to add to your second point is you know with escapism and with this that album and with this music is just being allowed to be an artist who believes and loves what they're making and loves you know like I would play that song on a loop like I as a listener to my own music which is hilarious I listen to my music lows and lows and lows until it comes out and then I don't listen anymore but as a listener I would put that song on and it would make me feel something you know and just being allowed to decide and trust your own gut you know for and I think there's this I don't know maybe lack of trust in artists to to pave their their path trust their audience and trust their instincts you know and being independent I was allowed to do that and you know like you said on paper I wasn't expecting it to be a huge massive hit but I just believed in my heart that by my taste it was a good song and I really wanted to share it and shouldn't that be enough it's like that movie obsession that costs you know almost nothing to make but it was so well done that and it was so the taste was so at such a high quality yeah the storytelling was so well done that it became you know the highest grossing movie or something last year so amazing and it's it's a really similar story of of you know while everybody's putting money on you know on on this project or that project or this thing and then here like you're not looking over there but this is what art looks like you know and in the end that's the only thing you can control yeah we've talked a lot about the music industry and we have to talk about ice cream and because it is so important you know that the songwriting producing industry did not get hit with the me to me to the same way that yeah the record side did yeah and to have the bravery to not only go through it but then talk about it tell me about the creation of ice cream and so the creation of that song I originally wrote that song with one of my dear friends blood pop and Mike and then I brought on Mike's out of a year or two or three or three and a half years later to help me finish the production um yeah it was a devastating session you know I was really young when I started that song maybe like 19 maybe I mean when we look at everything even what's going on right now in the Cornell University case being a woman who speaks out about what what they've become a victim to their pain their trauma there's such a first of all having a thousand people's opinions on it is so traumatizing having people come out and be like I don't believe you what like seeing how destructive are almost just as painful it can be having to live through your traumas and your pains and your and then having to then put it out trying to get justice of some kind or put someone behind bars like all of that like it's so devastating such a devastating thing to watch and to witness and to experience and for me um I just didn't know what to do and then I I'm so fortunate and bless that you know music is my therapy I'm so grateful that what that song has allowed me to do when I really deep hit is to in real time feel powerful in my own way in my protected way in a way that you know not one can come over to me and tell me I'm a liar you know you know I'm protected from that which you know that's a whole other thing I'm just grateful for the gift of music and you know like I would sing that song on stages and just like literally break down you know I think what's really beautiful about that song is as it allowed me in real time to kind of heal in my own way you know and at the same time fill a deep connection to those of us the statistics is one in four women and men you know will experience sexual assault rape sexual violence in their lifetime which is like a core of the population you know which is huge so more than anything just grateful for the gift of music and in a way grateful that I decided to want to share a song like that I made a video for it that was really hard really difficult you know but just allowing my art to be the form of my therapy and you know we know what goes on in the world there are good people and there are not good people there are evil people there are people who abuse their power over young girls or young boys or people who just it's just life so yeah as deep and tough as it is I just feel more than anything just so grateful for music because it really did truly save save me there are some resources in the United States with music cares if it's something if if you've been a victim of any sort of sexual violence music cares has resources for you in the UK I'm sure that the ivers are a place you can reach out to as well some of the uh that this studio has been so famous for being a a place that that can hide these these and it's yeah but I applaud you for having the just the the strength to do that it's important because we as an industry still don't really talk about it and it's so prevalent um you know going back to the art of that album obviously starting to get you know Grammy nominations and getting brits and uh you know the recognition from the ivers did you feel at that point or at any point that you've made it or having gone through all those that roller coaster to get there one of the joys of of going through the roller coaster is that when you're there you're kind of like huh I can handle this now when you're at 17 and you graduate no way do you have the ability to do that you know do you feel like you uh do you did you feel at any point that you made it I think um yeah having on my shelf these awards that I dreamed of as a little girl was just exceptionally surreal that night at the brit awards is one of the craziest things I've ever experienced oh just I still haven't watched it back I want I want to watch it one day and like see what I went through because it was just this magical blur you know and my goal was always to just my goal literally was to be an artist who could go anywhere in the world and perform an arena that was my benchmark you know and we're very nearly there so it's quite a amazing beautiful dream come true place I'd find myself in now okay so finally we're at the new album and it's so great it's um I don't I don't say this like I like it sounds like I I don't talk to to say this to every person that we talk to like that every album is good but it's another experience as an artist to make a new movie. I feel like I went and I saw another movie. And again, I use this as an analogy 'cause so few artists recognize that this compilation of records they're working on is not trying to just put hits together. That's the greatest hits album that's fine. You will get there. But you have to do the movies. If you're a real artist, give me a movie. This is a movie. This music may contain hope is a movie. And I mean, I hope that this, you know, we're in the beginning of the Grammy season. And I hope we get to hear a lot more about this album over the next few months. But you made a choice. There's real orchestration. There's a lot of instrumentation on it. I mean, you're the label exec now. Aren't you like, aren't you supposed to save your money? What are you doing? Why did you do that? Why did you hire everybody to play it? I mean, you know what? What an amazing thing to get to make. This album is just like pure musical indulgence. Like for me, it's just like, as a ludicrous as I wanted to express myself, I went for it, you know? And I was such a freeing experience. It was a draining experience because I really, really just gave everything I had and wanting to make this kind of large, dramatic, very maximalist musical expression. You know, there are like so many versions of each song, you know, so many different verses, so many different choruses, so many different, you know, you're staring into the abyss of what something could be. And it's just like, what, what, you know, it was just, yeah, it was musical freedom. What do you do with your extra lyrics? I mean, when you say you have extra verses and stuff, and it's not, it's not, it's not like one syllable words. It's sophisticated rhyme schemes and whatnot. What do you do with your leftover lyrics? What do you do with lyrics that get cut? Do you re-utilize them? Do you have a folder of stuff? Yeah, sometimes, sometimes like my verse on born again, Lisa and Doja Cat was a verse. I wrote like loads of years before, but tweaked with some new changes in there. So every now and then I'll be like, do you know what, I like this? Let's bring that back. That's a good afternoon, because this is going to make me look really similar. Maybe they don't need to know that this has been hangover. Yeah, wrote this just now. Yeah, here it is. Click class symphony. You have, I mean, I mean, like you're making a, you're making a, I used the word movie to describe the album and then you have Hans Zimmer as a collaborator. What's your voice memo sound like for making that? I actually have, I have some voice memos. So there's loads of me and Mike shouting at each other joyfully. Let's hear this. Shall I mic seven? Yeah, right. [MUSIC PLAYING] Go to this. Go to this. [MUSIC PLAYING] That's me in a piano. Singing my ideas are my-- [MUSIC PLAYING] Oh, yeah. That's my growling with the will excitement. I have also the demo, which is quite different, or the first working day demo. [MUSIC PLAYING] It's just saying nothing. [MUSIC PLAYING] So I'm going to fall for it then. [MUSIC PLAYING] Okay, loads of autotune. I love to write with autotune. [MUSIC PLAYING] I like this demo, too. [MUSIC PLAYING] Yeah, like a completely different-- [MUSIC PLAYING] Yeah, just appreciate the fit out. You're missing it. You could sing the phone book. And what you just said there is important that using things like autotune has this visceral response from people who think that they know how music is made, but don't recognize how the tool can be really helpful. Explain why you love something like that when you don't need it, you know? Oh, so writing with autotune is like, I will do it for every song. And then I'll recut without if it's a song that I don't feel like needs that effect. Writing with autotune means you're not thinking about your pitching. You get a beautiful sound straight away. You can sing, yeah. And it right there was like flat in between two microteque whatever. But you get this, like, straight on the thing. So it allows you to think about what you need to think about, which is the melodies and the lyric and the feeling. And you're not insecure. You're not like, oh, that sounded bad. You're straight away just in this beautiful space. So I love to write with autotune so that I'm not thinking about, oh, let me make sure I pitch myself great. When you use reverb and you want that kind of fault, like, you know, with the echoes and the delays, when you want that, if you're slightly a micro bit out, it's going to echo 10,000 times in your ear, you know. Either you do dry, either you sing dry, you know, if you're writing that kind of thing, or you do all my, my engineer knows it's all or nothing. So it's either dry, a small bit of compression, no verb, no thing, like zero, like just nothing. Or just the swimming extra this, extra that an autotune on speed, reaching speed 10. I love it. I totally get what you're saying. And it's a thing because it makes you sound this, some of what your job is as a songwriter, which maybe slightly different as being an artist, maybe the same, but is, you know, is to meet some of the expectation the listener. And so you can immediately get to the point of listening to the song, rather than analyzing it in a way that's detrimental to the writing process. I'm surprised to hear so many melodies being that you're such like an astute lyricist to make, to be writing from lyrics. But I would, I would have thought that you were a lyric first person all the whole time. Are you not a lyric first person? Title first. So click like Symphony existed before the song did. And then you get the concept of I wanted the heels as the backbeat. You know, I get the concept of this wanting to feel like girls marching out on the thing, overcoming depression, getting, dragging something, dragging your friend out the house, being like, we're going to face the night, get a snap out of it kind of vibe. So you have the intention. And then that's why there are so many versions. That's a version of just random ad-libs melodies. But then, you know, then you're going to wrestle with the lyric because then I'll be like, OK, but I want to say this. And this melody is too smooth. I can only say five things here when I want to say 25 things here, which is why on this album it's so wordy and theatrical, because I want it to say a lot. You have songs on this album. And on the previous one where the timing can be something where you're pushing, this is the jazz in it too. You'll have not just six, eight, but you'll do stuff that feels out of time. And because sometimes it's the melody serves the lyric, which serves the melody, which then the instrumentation follows that. Whereas my husband, though, is like a clear, straight-like hit. Did you think this-- when you were done with it, you're like, ah, that's the single. Was it even a question? Because it seems very obvious that that's the single. Yeah. Once on the day-- on the day I spent nine hours on the bridge, was the day that evening my creative director drove up to the studio. And we sat there and I was like, guys, it's going to be this one. But I wasn't thinking-- I wasn't thinking, what's the hit? I wasn't thinking that, I guess. So I think in my mind, I actually wanted to go with, I know you're hurting first, just because I loved that feeling and that message. And I was like, I want to leave with this. But actually, when we finished husband, I was like, we'd be stupid not to go for it with this one. Where is-- where is-- where is he? Oh, we don't know. You would have thought. When you're on tour with-- also when you're on tour with your parents and your sisters, no offense, but it's probably not like the easiest way of her. - I don't, I don't know, I mean, tell me about writing, where is my husband? - This was such a, this was me and Mike, took a trip to Big Bear, we rented out an Airbnb and actually was just after the Grammys. So I'd have this huge high of just like, oh my gosh, like, put on arguably the biggest stage in music. You know, such an adrenaline and a preparation that goes into that and then you just do get a big crash after these big moments in life. It just, it kind of happens and it so happened that I was in a big kind of crash as we were on our way and went, got to Big Bear, we set up the speakers, set up some synths and stuff like that. And yeah, I hadn't written in ages. I was kind of in a similar place like writing wise, I haven't written since the album, you know, so yeah. - Wow, so you take that much time off for somebody who wrote from when they were 11 years old? - I can't talk and write. To me, touring is as energy ex, yeah. - Energy out as writing, like I physically can't do both. I can't multitask in that way. Yeah. And you know, like, I think, you know what, something I'm learning more recently is, you know, everyone's gonna have an opinion. It's also interesting realizing that the larger, something that you create is able to create that ripple, you know, like husband I think is probably my biggest song today and it's put me on some huge stages. It's, you know, I think, raised an awareness more of me in America. Like, I think it's helping me to grow in that way. But then what comes with that is just more opinions, you know? And I'm so blessed to have, you know, such a beautiful fan base of people who buy tickets to my show, who turn up, who love my art or believe in it or resonate with it, you know? And then there's also a larger amount of people who, you know, don't like it. And you know, I think it's also allowing ourselves to have pieces artists that to make something that everybody likes isn't something that I think I want to aspire to and I don't want to be bullied or feel afraid and feel like, oh, I should make something that everybody, you know, or that should be a choice because that's the choice, you know, I feel as an artist, I want to make not because I've seen someone express this in that and this and maybe I should then therefore be more this. It's a really big battle, I think, you know, taking in the opinions and actually just letting them go and realizing every great artist out there has loads of people who dislike something or have something negative to say, you know, and some people are going to think that and I think more than anything it's, I'm grateful I get to express that through my art, I get to sing it in that song, I get to make my point the way I want to make it and then I have to go away with my therapist and work out how to let go of anything that I don't need to allow to attach itself to my identity, easier said than done, but that's the mission we're on. - Wait, who's Suzanne, who is Suzanne? - Suzanne is basically when Mark first played me this beat, I was like, this should be called Suzanne and it was a crazy story because this was a song we wrote for APs, 150th anniversary and actually the main lady who burst the Audemars line was called Suzanne Audemars. So it was like, we were like freaking out, like, oh my gosh, more amazing coincidence. Yeah, it was just random but a beautiful coincidence. - Okay, so if I'm listening to their album, what song should I listen to when I'm on a night out with my friends? Maybe I'd say Winter Woman, just turn it really loud. - Oh, nice. - It's got like a bass, you don't need to listen to the lyrics, just have a nice time. - If I need a confidence boost. - If you need a confidence boost, I'm gonna say, happy a times ahead. - No, that makes sense. - Yeah. - If I'm alone drinking. (laughs) Merlot. You do talk about drinking wine. - I do, I do, yeah. - But maybe not Merlot, I don't know what you're talking about. - I mean, I love a good Merlot. - Okay. - Yeah. - What is your wine of choice? - Maybe I'll do a Pinot Noir now. - Okay, so I'm alone drinking Pinot Noir. What song should I listen to? - Night in Galane. - Oh yeah. - Yeah. - I'm gonna go and sing with my two sisters, but it can't be a song that they're on. What songs am I gonna sing off this album? What song are you gonna sing? I'm gonna say skin and bones. - If you're going to sing one of absolutely songs, what song would you sing? - Oh. That's such a good question. I'm such an absolutely stan. I mean, no audience is so incredible, but I don't think that I feel like I couldn't eat that, how she eats that. What would I sing? - Does she know that? - No. I mean, she, I mean, that's, yeah, she's, I do really like prototype, maybe no furniture, but maybe no way to hide, I just really love, sorry. I'm really thinking about this 'cause I just care about the answer. Do you know what? I just don't know you yet would be the one because I relate to those lyrics. I think that's really beautiful. - So what about your grandpa? - My grandpa. - Yeah, like what song of your grandpa's, do you know well enough to sing? - He doesn't really write songs anymore. He writes poems, which is really beautiful, but what was really beautiful in fields was, we collected some of his poems, and I used that to help inspire the lyrics for that song, yeah. - I was thinking, I mean, the conniving part of me was like, what you should do is cover the song and then watch them try to come after you and see what happens then. - Honestly, that would be pretty, I'm, - I got your back if you wanna go. - I'm pretty sure, I'm gonna need all the help I can get if we ever open that door. - Tell me real quick, what's it like opening for Bruno Mars? - It is, I mean, it's been an amazing experience. I've definitely chosen a set of songs that are more or less known. So, you know, I feel good in my decision to want to do the set that I have, 'cause we have 30 minutes, you know, I wanna be really intentional about using that time and my message is like hope, and I'm trying to do songs with a nice positive arc, and then we finish with Husband. It's a huge environment, stadiums are not a joke, so it's been like good to learn how to play to a stage of that capacity. And I always get in my head with support shows are pretty like, you know, it's not your crowd, like you're there to like, and also people, it's people are so far away that you can't necessarily see, but when people put their torch light up, I'm like, okay, good, we're doing a good job. But down the front, you know, you've got, yeah, so some people are like, really smiley and nice, and then other people are like, girl, like, I'm here to see Bruno, you know, and you're like, yeah. But it's good, it's the right kind of, that's how you get better at performing, you know, opening. - Yeah, I mean, you know, there's always an opening act. It's like, you know, there are artists always bigger than, you know, so there's always a-- - America is, you know, a territory I still have a lot of work to do, you know. People mainly know-- - I love that you posted though, the three, one, the three different billion plaques. First of all, thank you for doing this podcast. - Thank you for having me. - I get the feeling we'll do this every time you release an album, but, you know, you've earned all of it the right way. Like we said, you can't expedite any of it, you know, and to be performing at a stadium, and feeling like you've worked to do. To be, you know, you're here doing this, partly because, in my opinion, you're probably gonna get a bunch of Grammy nominations for an album that you sweat on with it, that you're the owner of the record label, because you've worked really hard to build a culture around yourself from being in cultures that suck. You learn, you had to learn how to, the only way you'd know how to build a good culture is by having experienced ones that needed a lot of help. And then after that, you have the, you know, the ability to stand up on stage at the Ivers and, and Brits and everyone else talking about songwriter rights and from a place of eloquence and knowledge and not from just, in a moment. emotional place, you're coming at it from the experience of not getting credit the way you should or having to share publishing in ways you shouldn't or having not getting points, all these things are because of your experience, you become such a positive leader for the the community, not just in the UK, but here, and it's just so, so appreciated. And I am just hoping so much that you get all the all the accolades you deserve with this album. And then I can't wait to hear the next one. Thank you. That is really, really kind. And a testament to why we got to not want to change the past, just focus on the future, right? Hey man. Yeah. Hey man. Is what it is. There it is. Thank you for having me. This has been really, really good interview. There you go. you