Ep. 268: Ilya Salmanzadeh | How The Swedes Cracked Hit Songwriting and Why Most People Won't

What do you learn from Max Martin in a technical sense that makes you a great songwriter? Well, there's so much because a lot of people mention like the math, right? It's not really you can call it math, but math makes it soulless if you call it just math His instincts he goes all he's writes like anyone else and like it's it's instinctual, right? The math part comes later when it's like wait that pre doesn't feel good So let's try and figure out what do we do? What do we is it? Is it are we hitting the notes close to the chorus? Are we too close to the chorus or is it the same rhythm as the chorus? What is it about the pre? That isn't feeling good That's when the quote unquote math comes in the fun is to write and just like write and I think about it But then when you the hard part is to go back in and be critiquing your parts and doing all those math things and critiquing it and fixing it is tedious. It's not fun, but it's worth it at the end of the day this is the key to the highest level of composition and the way Swedes win or when you say you take weeks to edit a song Tell me more about that process so Welcome to and the right it is I'm your host Ross Golan today's worthy producer of the year nominee Deserves his flowers, so I'm gonna give it to him He's the most modest super producer of the past decade He's so good. It's unholy. He's so good. It's a problem He's so good. We can't be friends. Well, I'm confident enough to say that is not true His life is a melting pot of culture and nationalities which explains his musical diversity I could go on and on about the many talents of this multi-instrumentalist who you know is this Honourless weed, but maybe we should just start this long-awaited and the writer is interview So please welcome my friend and the writer is Ilya Saban Zana Thank you. You know, it's crazy about this. So, you know, obviously we met in the MXM world and And we'll get into what MXM is in a second, but The first thing that I loved about the MXM world is that It's a community that treats songwriting like a professional sport Like right to me the people who show up to MXM You come you you practice like you would practice free throws you you know you practice like You show up on time you eat well you work out you do all these things, right? What is What is MXM to you explain what MXM is? It's funny that you mentioned the sport thing because when I got signed I felt like Real Madrid or Barcelona just you know got me like they they they saw me and then they signed me and I and I'm joining this top team of And I saw it very much as like okay, you're joining a An incredible team you have to show up you have to Score as any foot soccer player football player would do So I That was my initial thought of joining MXM, but then you kind of learn A lot being on the dementia ship of max and shell back because you know, we we did the wolf cousins thing Which is shell backs and Max's thing? But we can go into all of that how that started, but Initial feeling was very much so Like okay now like they they found me they spotted me and now they you know now I'm a part of this big team And I have to show up and I have to do my best absolutely best Why are Swedes so And they're the least willing to talk about themselves. What is it about the Swedish culture that keeps Swedes so insular I think it's the What everyone calls the Yanteloggen which is you're not supposed to outshine anyone Or be braggie. It could be a good thing and a bad thing. I think you should be allowed to Lift up the people that are you know doing great things and And not be ashamed of that. And I think also celebrating for instance It's something that I had a hard time doing because it felt like Too much showing off or it was it was a weird feeling funny enough when I work with Bernabou He was he mentioned like the same thing like why Swedes you should be celebrating. I feel like it's ungrateful Celebrating I was like that's a good point. So But that's where it stems from the Yanteloggen of Not trying to over like overly bragging be braggadocious, I guess Hey guys real quick over 90% of you are not Subscribers to this channel and following the channel allows us to keep bringing you incredible guests each week and Growing the channel to offer more of your favorite writers and producers and industry folk especially artists It gives us a platform to tell their stories to you if you can Hit that subscribe button Thank you now back to your episode. It's like this There's nothing more fun than a bunch of Swedes around drinking booze and and going to Whatever like that the MXM hangs and our bachelor parties are reverend. Oh, he does they're always super fun Yeah, everyone let's lose But people don't always talk about work. No You know, and there's not really a hierarchy of like, you know Who is the most cut sort of the most because like everyone everyone successful out of that crew? Yeah, right, right. I remember talking to Oli Piami when I first the first time I ever went to MXM was I was started working with Johan Carlson and I'm I'm sitting at the table and I'm like my Midwestness is like so where are you from you know like what you know What are your parents musicians? Like just asking every quiet and you say you ask way too many questions And I was like huh and then Mozilla who comes around, you know Who's like who's from Michigan and it's just like me. It's like we're the ones in a grocery store I like so what he cook in for dinner that looks really good You know if you add that to that dish that'd be great And then you know And then you have like Peter Carlson you've all you know these people around us who are like I'm just trying to cook my own meal man, right, right. Yeah, you can stick by yourself. Do you feel like when the longer you're in The United States that there's more of the hey, what are you cooking over there? Or does it not seep in for me? Yeah That's funny. It's I remember when we moved Into our current neighbor Me and my wife we both felt like oh wow, we were so sweetish because Neighbors would be ringing the door and we wouldn't like hide who are they what do they want? Don't let them know that we're in here and like when they leave you would be like Sneaking out and like oh, there's a cookie and a you know like welcome to the neighbor's like oh, you know That's what they wanted So I quickly understood that okay, I'm pretty Swedish, but then when I every year I go back just to to stock on when I'm visiting I get so annoyed at people because they're not saying hello back and then I feel American all of a sudden You know what I mean? So it's not every everyone like people are nice, but It's not the same. It's like you're saying some to you know, you know, you don't ask anyone randomly like hey How are you doing? You know, it's not a thing you just keep to yourself and Which is also I like that as well, but when I'm here and I go back I see the difference pretty pretty easily Do you like salted licorice? No, it's I don't mind it I was really quick there, but I don't it's not something I would pick I like sour candy. Yeah, I think the Swedish sour candy Yes, my thing How do you like so you know, it's the it's a similar thing It's like you know, it's a pile of candy. I'm gonna try it and then be the thing that like Johan I'll make everyone in the session eat and then to see like who can stay or not. Oh, well, you know, of course you though You know, Swedish candy's like it's like a thing. There's like Yeah, yeah, it's like it's even in studio city. It's like you know a couple spots that they popped up Okay, let's get it get to a little music along the way, but You know you Are not you were you were not born in Sweden. No, you didn't even emigrate Initially to Sweden, so how does what's the story of Ilya? I Was born in Iran where it? in Kermann. Okay. And we moved to Denmark when I was three. Brother sisters? No, single. Kid, we moved to Denmark when I was three. My dad left earlier to kind of get us situated and when I was two. So I kind of didn't see him for a year, which was, I'm sure, tough for both my parents and myself. But we moved to Denmark. I remember, I do vividly remember in the airport when I see him, like coming up the escalators. That's my first memory of Denmark. Wow. That was three, I think. And then, yeah, we lived in Denmark until I was 11. Okay. How's your Danish? I was talking about this with my wife this morning because she speaks four languages. I currently speak three. But the fourth is the Danish. And I was like, I speak four as well. I was like, no, you don't. And I was like, yeah, I do. It's just in here somewhere. I was really good at Danish up until we left. But it comes back when I'm around Danish. Then I quickly comes back. How's your Persian? It's good. It's good. I don't read or write. I used to be able to, but I speak it pretty good. I'm not like incredibly fluent, but I know like salam hubi. Yeah. Perfect. That's great. That's Huba. Good. I know it as well. So you move to Denmark. And what's it like growing up as a Persian immigrant in Denmark? I don't. So for me, my parents were really good at making me feel, not feel their hardships. So for me, I was just like, you know, my dad had music. I was listening to his CDs and that, you know, he loved music. Tracey Chapman is the one song, the crossroads by Tracey Chapman is, if you ask me what the absolute best song is, Tracey Chapman, Chapman crossroads. Really? Why is that? Because that's my first musical memory. And it's in Denmark. We moved there. We lived in, in the beginning, vague memories of this, but we lived in this gentleman and his family had rented out a part of the, his house to us as I can, like an immigrant migration thing with the, I guess, with the government. And then we moved to a small town called Music Bean. I'm saying it in more in Swedish, where it's like music village, literally it's called. And there we had like a townhouse situation going on. And it was beautiful memories. Like we had a little backyard. My dad used to like, you know, mown the lawn, mown the lawn. And I would listen to music and I see the photos. I loved music growing up. I used to put like on, you know, shades and just headphones and just for hours, just dance and sing. And it was both Persian music. It was American music. And then yeah, I was lucky in school. I had really good teachers like mentors that saw something in me. And we had trouble kids. We had a lot of fighting and stuff happening in school. And they would always have my back. And kind of be like, you're one of the good guys. Don't, you know, you know, keep doing what you're doing. And I was lucky with that. Because I think early on as a kid, especially immigrant, having someone that's not that's like white Danish, believe in you, I think that's really, really powerful for a kid. Hey guys, if you ever wanted to get further in the world of And The Writer is, if you ever want to sit in that seat across from me, well, guess what? You can now join the conversation. That's right. Because we just launched our Patreon. You'll get access to our monthly Zoom hangs where we'll listen to demos, give feedback. You can hang with us directly and we can hang with you too. Look, occasionally we'll bring on some guests that will chat with our community and maybe most importantly to me, you are going to have access to our 200 archived audio episodes. That's episodes of Charlie Xiex and Sabrina Carpenter and Lin-Manuel Miranda and Shania Twain and Babyface so much. So many great interviews that you can get amazing insight and knowledge from. So come and check it out in the description below. There's a link for you to join us on Patreon. Let me tell you about Splices Sounds plugin. It brings millions of royalty free high quality samples right into your DAW, making it easier to search, preview and drag and drop sounds all over within your project in any DAW, FL Studio Logic Pro, you know how it works. I've been testing out a new tool called Variations that lets producers create new versions of any splice sample that adjusts structure key and BPM while preserving the sounds core characteristics. That's because every sample in splice's license catalog of more than 3 million is traceable to its original creator. The original sample creator is compensated each time their sound is used as a source and each time the variation is downloaded this means that there are more opportunities to use the samples you already love and more ways for creators to get paid. Variations is available to try now in splice's sounds plugin. Check it out. Thank you for sponsoring and the writer is. What was the first point when you started to create music? When I started creating it initially started by a random weird one. But back in the day I can't remember the brand but it was like a cornflakes brand that used to have like things in the in the backs. Yeah, toys or toys or whatever. This one time they had like a demo CD of a music program called EJ like hip hop EJ. This is the most sweetest thing I've ever heard in my life and I'm sure that company is Swedish or maybe French. I can't remember because in the US they're not giving you, hey, this is your free demo to learn how to make music in your in your fruity lips. Yeah, yeah, it's crazy. And I was like, what is this? And my obviously my dad, because of his love for computers, we had a few computers at the house. So I would, I popped that in and started playing around. And at that time it was just like loops that you would put together. And I remember I thought it was interesting, but I didn't like the sounds because I grew up listening to a lot of hip hop and R&B. I was like, this doesn't sound real. So I was like, ah, whatever. And then my friend, but that was the initial starting point of getting the interest. And then my friend, one of my best friends, um, he gave me another CD, I think was called acid music maker. So yeah, and it was only like acid sounds and stuff that I didn't listen to. So then I was like, okay, let me see what I can make here because it was a genre I never listened to as I thought it was cool. How old were you at this point? At this point, I was probably 11, 12, 12, 12. Had you played any like piano, anything at this point? It was just like, it was already starting from a DAW situation. Yeah. Already from like a computer nerdy situation. And then we got to know a friend. He just moved into the neighborhood. And he had a synth, like a keyboard. So whatever we would hang out at his place, he would have a play on his synth. His producer, I later, his producer, his brother was a producer. I learned later. That's why you had this little keyboard at the house. Um, but he borrowed that like to me for a summer. And I was just playing non-stop learning and learning and learning. And I remember my dad was like, yeah, just listen, because he used, he, he was self-taught. Um, he had a beautiful voice. He loved music. He, he, he sang more like Persian music, but he had a band with his friend early on. And so, but anyways, he was like, listen to your favorite songs and try to try to play them on the keyboard. And that's what I did. So I just did it every day, everything. And that's how I learned to play a little bit just self-taught. That's crazy. You know, this is obviously telling the future, but that kid ends up, that kid who's like playing all summer ends up doing some amazing music for, for people who don't know what you later produced. Give me a list of some of the songs that you have worked on in your career. Oh my God. This is like against the Swedish, I got a list I can help you out, but I want to hear from you. Give me the list for those who don't know who you are. Give me a list of some of the songs you work on. So I have to say problem because that was my absolute first success moment. Into you, unholy, we can't be friends and I hate that I made you love me. Like you do. Santa tell me. Santa tell me. No tears though. No tears. No tears. No tears left to cry. What else? Break up with you. Just so you know, I'm really bad with names, even titles. So I probably don't even know what I'm going on. I just named all of those songs that have over a billion streams. Those are not all the hits. Those are just, I mean, there's obviously even recent, like, you know, whatever, there's a lot. And it's amazing to hear, you know, when you're a kid who is self-taught, that you can be the person who ends up creating that kind of music is insane. Obviously, we'll get to some of these stories in a second. The music that you were really into at this point, you know, you were saying some of it is Persian, some of it is American. Those are both huge umbrellas of music. And presumably some Scandinavian music as well. What are some of the most influential albums that you were listening to? For sure, Crossroads by Tracy Chapman. That album. That's so interesting, because it's not, if I think of music that sounds like it inspired you as a producer, that is not first on my list. I know. But that for sure was the ground, like, the foundation of, like, just love for music. And then again, I'm really bad with the titles, but the album that has had Fast Car, I can't remember what the name of that album was. Let me see it. It's like that. I see the covers. Yeah. I see the covers. That I'm better at than titles names. That album was groundbreaking. Michael Jackson was a huge, huge influence for me, growing up. My dad had binos of all sorts. He had modern talking that was, like, huge for me, growing up. What else? There's so many. And then my cousin introduced me to hip-hop. He lived in Sweden, grew up in Sweden, and he was like, because I grew up with MTV, and like, it was a lot of pop, top 40, you know, on TV and all the records that my dad had. Could you speak English at that point, or was it? So for me, growing up, my dad was very important for him that I knew English early on. So, we never had subtitles on anything. We never had, like, if anything on the PC, it would be in English, it wouldn't be the Swedish version. So, he was very adamant to be like, "You need to learn English is important, it's good for you." So, even as a kid, he would do, like, test words and stuff. But, with that being said, me listening to music at that point, even though I could speak and understand it, I would listen to melodies first. And I thought I've been thinking about this a lot. When I listen to music still to this day, the immediate thing I listen to is the melodies or the melodies, or like, what is it making me, like, how am I feeling when I'm listening to this? And this is a huge thing that I got from working at MXM, you know, is the sound of words and how much that matters because if you're a lyric first person, you know, that's obviously the story is going to matter, maybe even the rhyme schemes matter in a different way than what's singable if you don't speak English. Right. And that's a really important thing if you're a melody, melody is king, kind of place. Is that a Swedish point of view, because, you know, I've asked this question to Johan a lot. I'm sure you have a thought to all, when you start working with Wolf Cousins and MXM, these are the biggest pop writers in the world. Yeah. The biggest pop writers in the world live in Stockholm. Why? That's a question. I don't know if I have an answer to, but I think it has to do with music is very, it's like integrated in your, like, curriculum. So like in school, you get a lot of music, you know, you get exposure to a lot of music and Swedish, like, child songs or children, they're very melodic and, you know, it's very, very melody heavy. So I think that has to do a little bit about it with the whole thing, but all in all, I think it's the upbringing of music in school and how important it is. We, you know, it was very encouraged for me just growing up, like, when my music teacher realized that me and my friends loved music, we would get the key to the music room and be able to work on the computer and, like, very, you know, what's the word for it? I'm blanking on the word, but there would be very encouraging in school. Okay. So you start figuring it out just because you're interested in, like, oh, yeah, this goes here. What if I do that? That's a big difference from that to, say, Darren, which is like the, the first big album that you work on. What's the journey? You know, it's crazy is that, you know, your, your daughter's almost the age that you were when you were working on albums like this. Just so insane, like, how much happens from, you know, how fast this happens and how young you were, you know, tell me about the journey from, okay, I'm going to put this CD from a serial box to I'm going to create an album that ends up being a number one album in Sweden. So initially, I wanted to be an artist. So it started with me just making those, the, the, the, as we now call it, EDM style music. And I fell in love with anything that was electronic music I used to do. So we did, I had a band or like a group that would make a, you know, electronic music. And what was that called? The initial one that we had is a horrible name, white tigers, just because I loved white tigers. A horrible name. I've heard worse, I've been in worse. But did you sing in it? No. So that was just electronic music. And then once I started to like, okay, after a few years, my friends started to liking the songs that I was doing and making in these doors, I was like, okay, I think I figured out enough to maybe write my own music or like write my first song. So I wrote my first like R&B pop song. I can't remember what it's called or anything. But I remember-- But can't or you won't. I can't. I literally can't. But I wrote it and I remember showing my dad and he was like encouraging and we had this. I remember, I don't know if you remember, with these old screens, PC screens, they used to have like a microphone on top of them. Of course. So I would be like singing into this thing and trying to record vocals and I think I had started through the loops then. And back then, they didn't even have audio. So my vocals would just be like a one shot that went on forever and I had to, I don't know how I stopped it. But that's how I started to write my first songs. And eventually, I remember when I was in high school, we, I played it first like a random friend like on the bus that I would hang with on the bus only and he was older to me and he listened to the song and I was, this is really good. You should keep going. So I think stuff like that was really important to just, I mean, I'm sure it was crap. But he was just encouraging. Do you remember who that was? No. I wasn't like really close with him. I mean, it was much older than me, but we were just hanging on the bus and then once we went to school, it was just like, you know, so where's it in Stockholm or is it in this was it? Well, I grew up in a hood of Stockholm. It's like on the outskirts of Stockholm, like North. And yes, we do have hoods in Stockholm. I know people didn't know that, but yeah, I went to, it was more in the north side still the high school, and then, from then on, I started to write more songs and make them on my own and 100%, and would meet friends at school that were also interested in music, so we made songs together and, you know, a little bit better and better and better, still not amazing, but, you know, small steps, and, I was high school. Yeah, I know. Nobody's writing anything good now. Like, now today, like, high school kids, they're like, yeah, well, most of the kids are, well, they may have some assistance in some of it that's different than the assistance that you had at that time, and I think, you know, you had the fortune of not having, no one was encouraging you to put that online yet. No, exactly. So, you were able to, you were able to spend years of, this is good, but probably crap is probably the best phrase to describe most people's 10 years of trying to figure out what they're doing. Yeah. So, that was like, you know, by the time, when you started saying, oh, this is actually good, this is like not just like good, but probably crap, but like, this is competitive. I think, when I first, when I first got signed, where I met like a producer that had a big studio, and I played my songs to him, then I was like, okay, I always had this thing of like. It's a huge jump, man. Yeah. I remember your playing that song means that something you were, somebody, you didn't just fall into that. No. So, there's a whole back. Yeah. I wanted to be an artist. I was singing a lot in school, and I was performing at the end of the year. I was performing with my own songs, and it was like R&B, straight R&B music. Did the kids in school like it? They liked it. Yeah. Yeah. I would never do that now, like I was like, how did I, what? But at that point, I was like, yeah, this is me, you know, I love doing this, and I was singing and performing, and my friend was like, hey, so I think the radio station is back. It's called Power Hit Radio. I think it's back now, but it was gone for a second, and then back then it was the biggest like pop R&B hip-hop, top 40 radio station in Stockholm. My friend was like, they have this competition, you should be in it, and the competition was like, you would call in, first you had to submit your material, and then if you got picked, you would call in and it was a battle on the phone. So I had to sing a song on the phone, and then my opponent, or whatever you call it, would sing their song, and then there would be voting, like the listeners would vote. So I made it to the final, and the final, you go to the actual station and get interviewed there, and then you sing it live with like a fancy mic, not like phone mic. And then they would air that during the commercial breaks at the radio station, and this producer, Ari, in Stockholm, a friend of mine, who discovered me. He was like drunk at 7/11 one night, and like heard this thing, and I was like, I sang Mario Wiener's, I don't want to know, and he was like, when did he release an AKAPELLA version of this? So he didn't understand what the hell was going on. And then he was like, oh, it's a competition, and he knew the DJ. So he called them the next day and was like, this, I heard this guy sang this song, I need to have his number. And they were like, no, he's a part of the competition, we won't give any of the contestants numbers out. And he goes to studio, and he has studio buddy that he shares his studio with. And he's like, man, I heard this guy at 7/11, and he's sound amazing, I wanted his number, but it's this competition at the power of radio, and his buddy, who turns out to be, remember the guy that borrowed the keyboard for his brother. His brother was like, I think that's my brother's friend. Let me see if I can give you his number. So crazy how the universe works. So that's how I met Adi, and I went to see him. And it was this surreal moment, because it was the first time I was actually in a big recording studio with a board. What are some music songs that he had worked on? He had worked on a lot of Scandinavian stuff, like big Scandinavian pop top 40 stuff. I can't remember. We were familiar with the records, or you were familiar with who he was with the records, yes. Wasn't that familiar with him? Yeah, but nobody knows, nobody knows who a producer is until you know, no, no, exactly. Thus this platform, yeah, exactly, perfect, yeah, so that's where I got into the business sort of say, because that I was around 18, 17, I think 17, maybe, and then I got signed to him and a co-venture with Warner Chappell. Interesting. So that's before Wolf Cousins, before that, and then did, what did your parents think of that? I mean, they were, they didn't know that much. It was like, oh, this is cool, amazing congrats, like, but they were supportive of, yeah, always very supportive. That's incredible. My mom was always worried, of course, because I wanted to be a doctor as, you know, like Persians, we want to, you know, doctors, or we have high, you know, goals. So my mom was like, okay, it's like Dr. Dre, Dr. Luke, there are a bunch of doctors, like, so you can get a PhD in this. Yeah, we had Dr. Aldban, there's a whole medical way, yeah, of course, did, is she still worried? No. No, she's so proud. She's passed that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She was, she was for, I mean, I was struggling for a long time. Every year, it was like, okay, but like, what are you, what's going on? What are you? You know, I was like, just give me one more year, one more year, and then I promise you I'll be a pilot or something. I think this is what's, I think, can you fly a plane? No. I wish. You know, I think people think that it just happens fast, even when you have successes along the way. Like, this is what year that you signed the publishing deal? 18. So, so I, my first success, big success that actually made a difference was 10 years later when I got one. That's crazy. After you get signed. After I get signed, yeah. So how do you survive for 10 years? I managed to get, I mean, on advance, and it was like this, the smallest, a couple hundred per month, that basically, instead of giving me a year's advance, which would have probably been horrible, because I had no idea how to deal with money at that time, at that age. We came up with a solution to give like just like a monthly advance, just so I can, you know, live. I always like that. In the US, they do that too a lot, and I think a lot of new songwriters feel like they want to see that big check up front. Right. And the reality is, if you're young and you can get, maybe you can even get more money if you parse it out over 12 months, do that version, let them force you to budget, you'll learn a little bit of how to be an adult while also getting a publishing deal. One thousand percent, I think the goal should be to not have an advance at all. The goal with the advances to, for you to, like you said, learn and be able to make a living off of your royalties, and then not have an advance at all. I think to me, that should be the ultimate goal. That feels very Swedish too. Yeah. That's the, you know, the no debt living. Yeah. You know, so you spend 10 years on these, you know, working on records, are you working every day or did you have other jobs? No. So I, before I got signed, I, I worked as a, like a telemarketer in the beginning. I, six months, I absolutely hated it. I'm not good at, like tell them, like, whatever that style of stuff. I know you learn enough to think that that's probably accurate that you're not very good at telemarketing. I'm not. Cause you're probably like, I don't want to bother you, man. Dude. I don't even want you to buy this product. I don't know what I'm doing this. There's so many times that I would call up people and I would look at their, like, how much they're paying and what I'm offering. I'm like, you know what? But they're actually better off, never mind. It was crazy. But then thankfully, since I was such a computer nerd, they, that same company got a new assignment that they would, they started doing Apple tech support. So internally we got the brief. first before they went out and searched for external people. But so I was like, I want that. That sounds way more fun. People calling me and I just can just help them sign me up anytime. So I did a test and I got that job. So I was doing that for like six months after that as well. - Do you switch to Apple or do you use, when you produce right now, don't you? - You produce on Mac. - On Mac. - It used to be on PC, like a laptop before anyone used to have like laptop rigs. I just had a laptop just so I can move around and on a PC and PCs were way cheaper. - Yeah, of course. - But yeah, so I did, that was my only like actual job. I did a little bit of other stuff during just like, what's it called, not practicing, what's it called? Internships, on different places and my aunt used to have like a restaurant that I used to work at and I was not good at that either. So she put me next to the computer, like do the bills. Yeah, you're not good in the kitchen. But yeah, I got signed after the, when I worked at the Apple tech, that's around the time I got signed. - When you're saying getting signed to it. - With Ari and the one at Chapel. But I would work on tracks when I got home from work and then it would just been nonstop. - And what point is it, you know, do things blow up for you where it's in Sweden, where you're like, oh, I can now stop doing other jobs and people are starting to, in the business and in wanna chapel are starting to notice who you are. What is that? I think that didn't happen until I started hanging with shell back. Up until then, again, I was lucky. I was very lucky that the people at Wanna Chapel really believed in me, even though I didn't have any success. They just saw something. So I kept continuing to renew my contract and kept getting the advance every month, and they even, was like, hey, we built the studio if you want. In the beginning, I was working from home all the time, just in my bedroom. And after a while, I got access to their studios, but it was like, I was obsessed, like nonstop working. Nonstop, nonstop, nonstop every day, every day. Every summer, my friends were like hanging going to the beach and stuff, I would just be working, working, working, working, like all day, all night. Until I got access to the studios and then I would start going there. And it was a few years, man. So it was not like, is work all of them something that runs in your family? I don't know if that runs in my family, but maybe like passion, I would say, I don't know if that can run in your family, but my father was very passionate with whatever he was working with. My uncles are brilliant, people and very passionate, but work a holism for me. To me, it was more of, you could definitely call whatever my obsession is, probably work a holism, but it comes from, if you really break it down, it stems from being an immigrant and just trying to prove you place and prove that you're good enough and that you're not just an immigrant that came here to do whatever they accuse you for. I really wanted to prove that I too belong in the society and I too can create big things, do big things. So I think that was driving me to be the subsist. More like a chip on my shoulder of like, let me prove you wrong kind of thing. And that, I don't know where I got from. That's just something that I've always had since I was a kid. This, I don't know, just chip on my shoulder that I have to prove if someone doubts me, that's the, like, I have to prove them wrong, you know? And I don't know where it comes from. - When, well, I think you said where it comes from. I mean, there's no question that proving that you belong is motivation and there's a reason why, my grandparents were the immigrants into this country, but they, this insatiable need to prove that they belong and it flowed through my generation too. I mean, this, this, okay, well, this is how you work. Like this is what it is. It's like, you earn your place and you show that it's attainable. And by doing that, your uncle's working really hard. Your dad's working really hard. That shows that it's attainable, which only fuels the, the ability to prove people wrong. When you're working all that time, are you working with artists or are you working to pitch? - So there's different scenarios. At one point, I was just making my own music for my artist's projects. And then, at one point, when I got, after I got signed, I got to know my friend, David Jazzy, who became a really close collaborator. We started writing a lot for pitch. And the first thing we got was for this, my absolute first cut was for these, the brats dolls. They had like an album. I can't remember what album was, but it was an album. And I remember, my friend was like, yeah, this is big because the last album sold like a million records. And the album we were on kind of flop, I think. So I was like, man, I thought it was my moment. But we just kept going, kept writing. And there was a point where I used to watch, remember, you know, the Ryan Lesley videos. And like, he had two guys, Mr. and Pizzy shout out to them. They had like a blog and they were, you know, showing how they're making beats. And like, I used to be very inspired watching those things. Have you, you know, the video with Timberland, when he's in the studio with Jazzy, like, I used to watch that every day, just for inspiration. So those things have been very important for me growing up. And these guys had a blog where they were, yeah, show just making beats and they were amazing. And then they had this competition, again, me and my competitions. But they had a competition where it was like this beat, whoever writes the best song to this beat will pitch the song or whatever. And then I wrote something on the song. And they really loved it. So they reached out to me. And then I started collaborating with them. It was my first time I was working with like, actual producers in the States. And I would just be writing. I wasn't even producing. I would just write on their beat, send them the vocals and everything and they would, we didn't get any cuts, but it was like close calls all the time. - Yeah, as, you know, all an artist needs his hope. - Yeah. - And so those kinds of close calls are what makes you be like, I'm close. So I'm going to be writing. And by the time you did a close call, you've written 20, 30, 40, 50, 100, 200 songs since that. So then the close calls keep coming until they stop being close calls. - Exactly. - How does Shell Back here song? - So Shell Back, we've been in the Warner Chappell studios for a while with me, the Struts and Ali Pyaami. We were all sharing the studios. And I think, so Julius Peterson, who is my A&R today, he used to be an A&R at Warner Chappell. - Shout out Julius. - Yeah, shout out Julius. He's a, he's, I love him. He's my brother. He used to work at Warner Chappell. And Julius is really close with Shell Back. They're best friends. That's how Shell Back met Max. 'Cause Julius, sister is married to Max. Anyways, Shell Back would come to visit Julius at the Warner Chappell offices a lot after Max moved to LA or was not in stock on that often. And 'cause just 'cause he was bored and like lonely. So he would come to the office and then he would come down to the studio 'cause he knew the struts a little bit and just to hang. And I remember meeting him. And I immediately was like, "This guy is fun, man." Like I liked this guy. - He's a nice guy. - Yeah, so nice. And also realizing, like, wow, he's like, so successful. But he's this nice. And like, he would come down. We would play FIFA. That would be our lunch thing. He would come down and eat lunch. We would play FIFA, hang out. He would talk about all this big projects he's working on. I'm just like sitting there. Wow. amazed you know like what years is wow 2012 maybe around that time I think And then but I was really adamant of not like because I'm not like a hustle and I just want For the lack of better words put my music where my mouth is rather than just like hustle I'm like hey, do you want to listen to my music because I really liked shell back he was like a real became like a really good friend And I didn't want to like Make it seem like I was I wanted something from that friendship So we would just like playing FIFA for like a year and then after a while he's like What are you guys working on? I don't know when I hear so he listening and then that made him be like He told me this be like These guys are pretty good, but I'm not like working with anyone I wonder if we could do something you know if we could do some sort of collaboration And he spoke to Max and it initially started with us just sending him beats That he would write to And we mean Oscar Gore is used to be a team Back in the day and there's a whole story with with that but Before that yeah, yeah, Oscar Gore is yeah, so remember my friend again and his brother He started working with chapel a lot and he basically started the team Got it me and Gore is and we Had a big team first and then we kind of like became smaller and smaller so that's how we started and then eventually it was just me and Oscar Gore is as a team and Him and I made a track that shell back then wrote and it became a share Lord song um Before wolf cousins So that was the first like okay something's happening and then right after that time um Song was called I wish right after that time Wolf cousins started so him and Max spoke and they went to Warner and we like we want to do this and they collaborated and then They presented it and that moment was like I've never been more excited when that happened Okay, so those who don't know the Pop Family tree You have Let's start with like Dennis pop yeah Dennis becomes max martin's mentor yeah max ends up being the mentor to you know Dr. Luke shell back You know because of Luke you get Benny and a bunch of people and shell back you have Then you have wolf cousins. Yeah, and so you have Dennis pop and max and then you have max is like you know the godfather And then you have like the dr. Luke thing which still to this day is like that like I said that's Benny and cash and uh and uh and uh and ammo and circuit all that and then you have the shell back thing which is um you Oli Piammi the Oscars yeah the struts matman robin matman robin tovlo tovlo there's a lot okay, so this is the the this is today For the last 10 years it feels like you know everyone talks about how many hits max has and people talk about how many hits You know these other you know Luke and shell back have But each of the people have their own Identity yeah, and their own journey under this right giant umbrella right So The other writers that are coming up under These worlds Do you feel Competitive or is it a family vibe? So there's always gonna be some sort of it was definitely a family vibe at least from me from my point of view um I really do believe and You have to be able to be happy for other people's success No matter what um and you have to be able to have positive competition in meaning If you're in a room like that or in a studio like that And i work on something and then i go into oli piammi's room or matman rob is room And i'm like well that sounds amazing. I need to step up my game, you know like more of a positive um Competition, I think that's healthy instead of it becoming like Negative For me it was very positive. It was very like family. Let's help. I'd give my notes to If people wanted them on their ideas and I would bring in people to my room and i'm very collaborative in that sense um But I do think I Did have a sense of because everyone's so musically talented. I was self-taught. I was like Well, they can play all these instruments and you know what So my thing was like okay the only thing I can do Which i'm good at because i'm a maniac but it's just outwork Just be there first leave last that was my thing. I'm just like just go in Before anyone else and then you don't leave until it's like three a.m. Or whatever And that would be every day So that would be my way of like trying to keep up with their musicalities and their talents when do You know In this giant umbrella In between all of that is sort of like if the whole umbrella of max marna's mxm In the middles also the people who are not wolf cousins Not part of prescription and it was like you know Soven right and y'all on Carlson and Ricardo and and other Swedes that are part of the the family I know i'm missing people and no offense to those who are missing out of this I feel like i'm close enough to these people that all of y'all are brilliant um When when i first meet you guys First of all julieus did a similar thing i met him in like 2012-ish and i was in london and he and jane bell shoutout jane were at one shop Yeah, we're like um You know i'm not really getting into sessions in la and they put me in with you know steve mac and frasier cheese myth and steve wraps in a few other people and so when i came back to la all of a sudden i had this like Resume of working with top people right and that gave me value here right But it's also part of that circuitously how i end up getting in touch with soven Okay, who then he along with my people at warry chapel connect me because Katy vinton kitty donovan Her brother is working with soven i think at the time, but either way it was like These introductions to soven soven's like i'm gonna connect you to you on carlson And so i end up involved right when you guys start spending more time in the united states right right The that community in that la was incredible yeah you go into mxm and There was always like there be like You know a darlin taylor and ed and arie and all these people are eating eating lunch or playing fiefo together It's like it's totally normal. Yeah, that this is just what life is. Yeah, it's crazy Tell me about Moving to la and why you guys all decided to move Pretty much at the same time It was honestly Max was like Why aren't you in la? I was like say less You have to tell me twice. I used to live I so I studied at am i in 2000 What was this eight? Okay, 2008 I studied at am i so i got my first taste of li Um, and it was like recording artist program um, it was called back then and Both me and my wife were like this is amazing. We should move here, but I had no Like how How am I gonna get a visa you know like how do we do i try to be like hey? Can i be a teacher at the school and that didn't happen um But so when max was like you should move i was like no okay I'm there so We did that because it also felt like Instead of just being in Stockholm sending beats it would it just makes way more sense to like Get a visa coming here and work in the studios with the artists, with Sam and with Max. So yeah, I just came here, I found the closest apartment to this studio, I made sure there was a good community school for my oldest daughter, and yeah, we moved and loving it since. Yeah, so Max Martin is a wonderful person, he's a great mentor to a great many of songwriters. Well, there's so much on the songwriting aspect, it's more, because a lot of people mention like the math, right? It's not really, you can call it math, but math makes it soulless, if you call it just math. His instincts, he goes, oh, he writes like anyone else and it's instinctual, right? The math part comes later when it's like, wait, that pre doesn't feel good. So let's try and figure out what do we do, is it, are we hitting the notes close to the chorus, are we too close to the chorus, or is it the same rhythm as the chorus, what is it about the pre that isn't feeling good? That's when the quote unquote math comes in, which to me is, I want to make sure that people know that it's not, that's not how we write music, it's not like, oh, the verse always has to be this, because this is what the math sets, no, it's like instinctual, you write first. What I learned from him are those two sets of like, of course, right from what your heart is saying, from instinctually what are you feeling, and then you listen to it with fresh ears, or maybe have someone else listen to it, because also when you play it for someone else, you hear it differently. So then you could figure out how to use the tool sets of like, okay, what's wrong with the pre, what's wrong with the chorus, maybe we need something more fun there, or so I would say the technical aspect of the songwriting part is the tool sets that I've learned from him. When, in 2014, when everything kind of blows up, right, and in a good way blows up, the, one of the mistakes people might make about you as a producer is thinking, or as a songwriter is to think that you're a producer who gets songwriting credit and that you're not as good of a melody writer as you are, and I love that a lot of this story has been about you as a singer and writing a beats, right, because that's what makes you a really good producer is that you understand top line, problem becomes massive. I want to hear how you wrote problem, and then I want to hear a voice note if you have one. Yeah, so problem was the initial starting point. It was an idea. I haven't talked about this as well before, it was like he wanted to do a whisper course of some sorts, and I think he tried it for something else before with other people, and he never got it right, and I don't know if I'm misquoting, but I think he came up with it like in a playing ride somewhere on a flight, and recorded it on his voice note anyways. We just started working, and it's actually the same time I started actually working with Max on songs. We did a J-Lo song called First Love. That was the first song we had Max and Sobbing did together, and at that same time I was introduced to Ariana with Sobbing and Wendy, and I met her at the studio, and we started writing for that project, and Sobbing goes, "This is the idea I have, it should be a whisper chorus, chorus drop down, whisper chorus, and the rest of the song should be very poppy, and happy or not, like just pop." I have the voice note that he quote-unquote prompted me with, should I play it? Yeah, play it, heck yeah. Shout out Sobbing by the way, I think Sobbing is not only one of the best songwriters, probably of all time for pop, future songwriter, Hall of Famer, one ballot, amazing, but he's also incredibly generous with his time, and is an A-list A&R guy, and if that guy only did A&R, he'd be the biggest A&R person of the last 20 years. He's incredible. But we're so used to thinking of him as a songwriter that you don't realize how cerebral, he could target, this is what this album, this is what this artist needs right now, I'm going to give them that song. Everyone thinks they know that, and they take it, and the song doesn't get cut, it's fine. That's life. That's most songwriters. Right. He's like, "I'm going to nail that, and that's number one. He just, it's shocking." Yeah, it's shocking, but he's so good at that. I love him. He's been such a big part of my life, and just learning and growing. He, again, to showcase his incredible, because just a note, I don't know if you'll be able to hear it, but at the end, he's like, "We don't need to use all those melodies, but he's basically singing the entire verse." How should I just play it in? Yeah, play it in the mic. This is the coolest shit in the world. Yeah. That's if it never gets old, because to me, that's the magic. I don't know that I'm not a really woo-woo kind of songwriter, but I like all songwriters, whatever. I go and I just start singing, and then you're like, "Oh, I'm going to edit this, math, whatever." But the amount of voice notes that you have that's like, "Okay, this first pass, he's just trying to get down the whisper part." Right. It's the part that's like the entire song, and that's just a byproduct where he just didn't press stop yet. Right. Exactly. Do you know what I mean? But that's the magic, is that while he's focused on trying to make sure to get the idea out. Yeah. Yeah, I think for me, when I was building the entire track off of that voice note, I didn't like, we obviously didn't use the pre because-- It's his voice on the final two, isn't it? Or not? It's Big Sean. And I don't know if we kept some of him in it, but Big Sean re-did the whispers. But I was like, I don't know about not having those melodies. I loved the verse melody. So I was like, writing the chords to whatever that verse was. And the max came in and wrote the pre, I remember, and started that. That was a fun, fun, fun time. Yeah. Because I was just like, I was ready. I had 10 years in. I was ready to go. There was no point in my head was like, oh, this is, like, stressful or anything. I was just like, this is, now it's, you know, it's go time. The song's, you know, the song's obviously huge. One last time, you know, the album has a ton of stuff on it. The same year has bang, bang. It's such a big year. Did you feel like at that point that you had arrived? So problem is especially big for me, because I remember vividly how I am in our, and this is after my father passed a few years after, he passed around 2008, I think, no, seven. And problem comes out. And we're in our, we had moved to the smaller apartment after my father passed. And I had, I was in my bedroom, in the hood, in Kalahel, shout out Kalahel. And I get a call early, early in the morning from Saban, and he was like, have you checked your iTunes? - What? - What? - No. - No. - Check your iTunes, and I check it. And it's the first time I feel like I've actually made it. I think it broke the record at that time for the fastest number one on iTunes, US, and I can't remember what it was like seconds. Yeah, it was just, it was number one in Sweden in the Swedish iTunes, and then I look in American iTunes, and it was number one, I was like, oh, you know, freaking out. And it's in multiple countries. At that time, it's just like, it's so explosive. At that time, I was like, okay, I think I've actually, all those years of visualizing and law of attraction and all these things were finally here. It was crazy feeling. Do you spiritually talk to your dad? I do, I do, I have, there's a number. And I guess I get to share that, it's very personal, but I guess I think in spirit of, I think, there's a number I see that is attached to that, for some reason, attached it to my dad. And I remember visiting, and I don't know why it was, like, why that number? I remember visiting my grandma was still living in the same hood area that I grew up in. We had all moved out. And this was after my, obviously, after my father passed. And I park in our, you know, what we used to have as a garage space. And it was that exact number. So I was like, okay, that's probably why my brain or whatever the universe is. That's because we, the last interactions we had was me practicing, like, driving lessons with him before he passed. I was actually calling him the day he passed, trying to, like, see if we can go out and do another. He, no, he died of a heart attack at work. He was a, he worked at, I think it was a car company, but like the tech side of it. And it was very unfortunate, obviously, but he had just come and come, like, came back from, like, a lot of depression because he lost his job early on, like, after a few years, we moved to Sweden. And he had just, like, finally picked back up and got work and was, like, happy again. And it's kind of hard to talk about. But he didn't take care of himself that much. He smoked a lot. He was very much like, he cared about everyone else, but he never took care of himself. He was tough. He was very strong and tough. But, yeah, so he passed, I think it was 45. He passed, yeah. But yeah, that number I see, and I immediately attacked at 10. And I see it sometimes very often. And the crazy thing is when my youngest was born, she's born exactly that time. That number, yeah. - That's wild. - Yeah. So that was my, like, okay, this is definitely the chances of that happening is almost zero. - When these songs are coming out, it's sort of back to back and, you know, sovants had a lot of co-writers. - Yeah. - Max has tons of different, almost teams that he writes with and then he also has his co-writers. And obviously, all the way back to Sharon and all that stuff. And, but there's this Ilya Sov and thing. - Yeah. - That's just all these songs to start pouring out. - Yeah. - Does it start to seem easy to you? - No, it was never easy. It was fun. It was fun, but not, it was not easy. We, like, I remember going through, like, the demos of NTU, for instance, like, we had, like, we were working on a pre for, like, weeks. And I tried it, like, with the young artists that I'm working with, they want an NTU or something like that. And I try to be like, okay, but are you down to spend the time to perfect it? Because it's not a fun process to perfect. I have to be honest. It's not fun. It's, the fun is to write and just, like, write, and not think about it. But then when you, the hard part is to go back in and be critiquing your parts and making sure that 100% feels good and getting, doing all those math things and critiquing it and fixing it is tedious. It's not fun. But it's worth it at the end of the day. This is the key to the highest level of composition and the way suites win. When you say you take weeks to edit a song, tell me more about that process. So, as any of us, we write a song. And it's usually we start from, if we start from scratch, it's very much like, okay, what is the universe bringing to us today? And we go, I mean, it's a fun, like, if we talk about into you, for instance, how that came about. I remember it was the second album we were working with Ari. And, Sabin was in his head about it because it was such a big, like a big run with the previous one. So, he was in his head about it. I think it was nervous about, okay, what are we doing? What are we saying? What are we, like, what styles, what are we doing? And I remember me just doing my thing of just like, what am I hearing? I'm playing the N.T.U. riff, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And I'm kind of like, well, it's happening. I'm like, whoa, this feels really good in my head like in my body. I was feeling that. And the sound was just like nervous in the background. No, it's not, it's not special enough. This is something else. And he was just like, I was like, no, you sure? It was just really good. And we just like put it on pause for a second and then started a new idea and started a new idea. And then we didn't get anything. And we were like, let's just try a different room. We went into the library in MXM and tried a different room. And we wrote one song. I can't remember which one it was, now I'm blanking on it, but it was one of these songs on the album. Or at least the start of the song. So that made him, he just got it out and then we could revert back. And then I opened the track backing and I was like, hey, I'm not sure. And I opened it. And I remember going to see my family real quick across the street. They had just landed or something. I can't remember exactly what was happening. And I come back and saw in a max or like writing and like on their voice notes. Recording, I was like, OK, something's happening. So I run in and it started and they had started writing melodies to it and it just was just pouring out. And then once you have that, we just put it down without lyrics, no lyrics, just put down the melodies. And OK, what is this? Everything that we were writing on the voice notes and everything, what is this? What do we have? I remember initially we wanted-- because Ariad mentioned she wanted to do an archipelus song at some point to solve. And I believe, I think. And we wanted into it to be like an archipelus song. So that's why my voice actually replaced the pump pump pump. That's like my voice doing it because in my head I was like, hey, we're going to do an archipelus song. But when she heard it, she was like, no, this is perfect. This is what we're doing. We're not doing an archipelus song. But up until that, it was weeks of figuring out what the pre was going to be. And like, how do we end the chorus? And I don't have the exact dates and how much we were working on it, but I know it was several, several weeks. And I vividly remember one of the parts I kept hearing. My role in a room with Saban and Max is I'm behind the computer because they're very active, both of them. But if I hear anything, and it comes back, and I'm very certain that this is good, then I present it to them as a melody. Otherwise, I just let them-- because I can also-- there's no point of having three active writers just singing on top of each other. But that pre-- I finally heard this melody of how to finish it. And I presented it to them. And they said-- kind of how the pre goes into the chorus. But that was like weeks after. We had started it. It's like people people are so concerned about getting a day of demo and I'm not going to send it to you now. So let me at least hear tomorrow because everyone finds the mistake the next day, the next week. It's okay. If all you got was a hit pre chorus that day, when you see the value of that song, that was easily worth it. 1000%. Even on the production side, on every aspect of the song making, if you just have a little bit time to sit on it, for the into you production, I remember when we had recorded everything and we were in Max, we were just like doing song by song finishing and mixed prepping. And we opened into you to send it to Serben. I just like mixed prepping. And then when we had, there was a few, I think at least a few weeks between us closing it, working on other songs and then open it again. That's when all the glass sounds and all those things came about because like all the extra stuff happened because we were like, Oh, it's missing this and it's missing that's because we were listening with fresh ears and no rush to like deliver it immediately. That's also very healthy. Yeah. I mean also when a label says we need this tomorrow, if they're not paying you for it tomorrow, you don't owe it to them. They want it tomorrow. And if they need it bad enough, they'll pay you for it. Otherwise, don't send it to them. Like you don't owe anybody anything. I think a lot of times song artists and producers are so excited to please the label or the artist that they're willing to give them an early draft of something that then sabotages the potential. Right. Right. Love me like you do. If you have that voice now, I would love to hear that because it's okay. It's it's like it's an it's a really special. Yeah. That one. I think I have at least the voice note when I discovered the pre-chorus to that. That one was a interesting one. It was very random how that song came about. Why? Because I was it was a Sunday. I remember vividly because me and Ollie, we used to work every day. And he was in a different room. I was working on Santa tell me at that time. I was finishing the production to that. And he just text me like, Hey, yo, do you want right? Like, sure. Why not? I've worked on this track for like two months. Let me get a break from it and write something. So I go up to him and he plays me a very rough version of that track. And I just put on headphones and start freestyling melodies on on the beat. And I remember I'm like, like shy singing with him. I'm a I was comfortable around him. We hadn't worked before. But I hadn't written my like melodies in a long time, just solo on the mic. And when we get to the ground singing it like shy, the chorus melody. Yeah, even the love me like do lyric is just like the random thing that just came out. And Ollie freaks out. Ollie is like, when he gets excited, he gets like sweaty. When he hears something that he loves, he's like, Oh, my God, I'm sweating. This is amazing. And I'm like, okay, cool. So it was his idea to like, it should be like a shouty, like just let's give me like 10 takes of every harmony you can hear and everything. So I just sing everything I hear on this melody. And it becomes this big chorus. And he starts working on these big drums. And while he's doing that, I start like recording verses. And I just comes to me. That's an infuriating song to just have come to you. It's very frustrating. The thing was, did you guys, were you aiming for 50 shades of gray at this point? Were you aiming for Ellie Goulding or were you just like, Oh, no, I just, I just, this is just what I, or were you thinking, Ari, what were you thinking? No, we weren't thinking at all. Me and Ollie at that point. It was just a Sunday. It was just like a Sunday. Like, let's just have fun, let's write something. And it's when Max and Sav heard it, Savon heard the demo of the first day that we did. They were like, this is perfect. And they, we, you know, described it because they had seen the scene and everything. And they jumped on and worked on it with us. Yeah, I have that when I started like hearing the pre-chorus. Come on. It's called pre-countia. It means maybe in Swedish. Just the start of the play. Yeah, totally. You hear Ollie working and then I'm trying to time when he's playing with the other thing that's so annoying with when you're a top liner, producers are working on the track right away. And they're playing your vocal that you just cut on the wrong section. You just wanted, you just want them to, to go away. But you're in the studio. So you're trying to like, cut them out. The ability of a top liner to write other parts of a song while a song is playing. Yeah. That's like a skill said no one talks about. Right. But the producer won't stop. And when you're finally like, can you please just, just, just loop the track, man. Yeah. Yeah. Cut out of this part. Yeah. They're like, oh, they're annoyed because you're like, I'm just trying to work on the track. Right. Just write the verse on your own time. I think there's a skill to also knowing who you're collaborating with. So for instance, with Ollie, he's sweaty. He's like, and he's like, oh, I feel something. If you stop, like, I don't want to stop him because he's hearing something. He's, he's in the zone. You don't want to stop him from this. I'm just trying to, like, not being bothered by the track being replayed all the time. But he's even looping like, it's like, he'll do it. It'll be like, you know, six measures instead of eight. Yeah. So he's not just enough to really, really fuck you up. Um, one of the things it makes MXM and the Swedes interesting is the silos of this person's a top liner, this person's a producer. People aren't necessarily getting writing credit if they're just producing. They're not getting, uh, producing credit. They're just writers. It's very clear what everyone does. I know that in an era where everyone is a writer and everyone is a producer, it seems like the siloing of people's jobs are, are, you know, are different. So for a song like "Bad Blood," what? Tell me about working on "Bad Blood" with, you know, Taylor and Taylor Swift. She's an artist of a young great, Taylor Swift, "Bad Blood," featuring Kendrick Lamar. You are a producer on it, but not a writer on it. Correct. How do you feel about producing on records that you're not a writer on? I'm totally fine. It's just, if the song already exists and you come in afterwards and that, that particular case, there was already an original version. They wanted to do a remix with Kendrick. Where they wanted to just have a different, uh, approach to the track. Shelbet called me and was like, "Hey, you know these, you're the 808 guy. Would you be down to do the remix for Kendrick Lamar?" I was like, of course. I was so excited. And I had already with Bang Bang's similar thing. I only helped, I only, but I helped with the production. The song was already written. Um, and I helped finish the production together with Rick and Max. And I only got production credit for that. Um, it doesn't feel right to me. I always say, if you get song of the year or like songwriting, would you be able to accept songwriter of the year at the Grammys and you produced Bang Bang? Like, how did you write that song? I don't know. I just helped with the production. I think you have to at some point recognize what is production, what is songwriting. Um, for bad blood, it was, song was already there. Um, even though Kendrick was going to write his part, um, for me, it was just a, I get the privilege to produce something like this. Are you kidding me? Of course, I'm going to do it. I'm not going to say anything. There's no way I'm going to come and claim The song already exists, and I stopped, there was a point in time where producers would get publishing for even just producing a record. I'm deliberately trying to just the other, a few months ago, I got offered a songwriting credit on a song I only produce, and I said no, because I don't, I don't, in my heart, I don't think it's right, why am I, I'm not a writer on the song. It's different if you start from scratch together, and then that's a whole other thing. But that's like, when people used to have Tin Pen Alley to have a guy playing piano, a guy writing, you know, like they're writing the, you know, music and lyrics in that way, is different in that sense, you know, technically it's melody and lyrics for a song, and when you're in a room and you're creating the thing together, I think that's totally different. I always appreciated that about you guys. With, you know, obviously, Dangerous Woman comes out, the album's massive, it changes who she is as an artist, it also helped her be, it's sort of the transition of her taking outside songs, becoming a writer herself on certain things, working with Ari on Sweetener and as a, as a writer and seeing the evolution of an artist, you know, other than that, you've had these, you know, you're aiming at different, you have different songs that are successful with different artists, but you start locking in with Ari. What is the relationship with you and Ari on a grounded, that's so special? Talk about this a lot, I think it boils down to like, it seems like we're on the same wavelength when it comes to music, just on the same page, same frequency or whatever, lack of better words, but I think that's the main thing. There's been a lot of times where we listen to a song and she comes back with notes and I already have the same notes in my head, and I was like, that's crazy, I was just about to say that. So it feels like that's one of the main things we're on the same page. No tears left to cry, when I hear songs that have like modulations or key changes or minor to major, whatever it is, things that are just not really pop-tacular moves, and hear this song has 1.7 billion streams or something like that now. And you guys finish a song like that, isn't there someone in the room that's like, let's not do this song because it does not follow the rules? If we didn't have Ari, then maybe that would have been the case for a song like that, but she's such a, she just trusts her instincts and guts and tastes so much and she knows who she is as an artist that she's like, this is the first song, this is the first single. And I've always been like, whatever you say because you're the one that's your music, right? So with that song, I was not worried because I love this song, but it did sound so much different than anything that was out. So I was like, how is it going to be perceived? That was my worry, but I love that song. But I would never, it would never go, it wasn't like, you shouldn't do this because it has a minor to major key change. I think it, but in general, it just helps with if the artist is 100% sure what they want to do and who they are as an artist, then you just trust their gut instincts and what they want to do. Is it true that God as a woman was supposed to go to a rapper? Okay, so at that time, when we wrote that, when someone wrote that chorus, Ari was working with Pharrell at that moment at that time. And I remember when we had that chorus, I was like, this would be amazing for Ari, you know, but she was locked in with Pharrell. But we just, we did a version and nothing happened with that song. And years later, Beyonce and Jay-Z were going to do their collab album, right? So I was in my home studio and was like, okay, let me try and attempt a beat for with that chorus, because I love that chorus, let me see if I can make that work. And that didn't happen. So we had this thing and then when we started with Ari, I remember we were in the studio. So that's a rapper part of the God's, it wasn't really for a rapper. We were thinking that maybe it could be her singing the chorus and we get a rap feature, but then when she heard the song, she was like, no, we're writing this for me. I was like, okay, fun. And then she just wrote all the verses and the pre and all those crazy harmonies that are in there. She did it all that day. It's so hard to finish a song, period, full stop. And you're finishing albums with this team and with this woman. Tell me about Ariana as a producer. Fantastic. So with Pettel, it was another new adventure because it was like, it's the first time just me and her are locked in and just literally creating from scratch. And it was a different process because before we would write together in which she would record, I would comp during the sweetener days and thinking next days. But with Eternal Sunshine and Pettel, she would record the vocals herself, and fully comp, fully vocal produce. With Pettel, we would sit in the studio together, pick sounds, and fully sound design together in that sense. And then she would take that idea, even pre drums or anything, just like, okay, these are the chords I love this. And then she would grab that and go to her studio and her room, we had two separate rooms. And she would write fully like melodies and harmonies and just make an amazing mock-up. And then she would present it to me. And if I'd like it, she would be like, then she would finish the writing and fully record it. And then she would bring it back into our room and we would sit together and produce together. And that has been a very fun process. Let's go to Sam Smith. You had a lot of songs with Sam over the years, but clearly unholy is a different level than others. But my favorite story is about your daughter and unholy. Everyone has a success as a thousand fathers, failure as none. And yet one of the unsung heroes in the process of unholy might be your daughter. So how does your daughter change the history of pop music? I don't know if everyone loves that song, but yeah, this was an interesting journey with this song. We're in Jamaica, and we're so many people in the room. But it was fun. It was like all friends and- Circuit Blake. All learn. Sam. Sam. Jimmy. Yeah. Me. And Sam just goes like, we've done a bunch of ideas and just like, let's just make a strip club song, like, okay, and we start like, no, we're eating lunch and we some start playing on glass and I recorded it. I even have that voice on here, play it when you're done. Yeah. I could find it at some point, but and I sampled that in the track. So that's not- Oh, no, you have to find it now. Okay. Let me see, I'm only starting, I'm so happy I wrote it. That's the one. That was sampled in the track and everything is pretty quick. Everything happens really quickly. I don't exactly know who did what, but I was at the computer circuit next to me. Blake, next to me and armored on the guitar and Sam and Jimmy and the room. And we do it quickly. It's like distorted. Sam's voice is like, their voice is like, pitched up and weird and swear words and just like, Sam was like, I don't want it sound like me. Let's make it analog. in a lude strip song and then once we have this little thing and I notice like the hotel staff is like singing the melody I was like I think there's something to this no one everyone hate like Homer Blake did not get the song there was like what I don't know what this is but it something was kept telling me like if people are like the staff is like humming the melody this has to be something to it but it was so out of the box that didn't want to pressure Sam into doing anything I was just like you do whatever you want and Sam does this thing with one once they finish a writing camp or have songs they go often listen to all the songs and kind of live with them and then Sam calls me and like we have to finish the song because I do something in me they just said that it has something I don't know what it is but it's something and Sam comes and it's just me in them finishing the the the lyrics and I had notes on we need to make it at least look less like swear no swear words and like less little more classy I guess a lack of better word and during that process I would I was playing it to my team and didn't get it at all I don't care what anyone says they did not get it the only one I got it was Max and he was like I played every song and he was like that has something and I remember vividly I was like right I was like in the room and he was like whoa I was like yeah but I feel like it has something and no one's understanding it everyone hates the song and others and Sam and I and then that gave me a little bit of confidence of like okay I know what my notes are when we go in and we made the song and I was still unsure because people still like still my team didn't understand what it was after we had done all my notes and had a proper song and I played in the car for my daughter which is has an amazing ear luckily I was still unsure I didn't know what it was and I played a song and I have never seen this reaction from her she she's been the one that she's always been right with songs but this reaction when I played it I was driving her to school and she was kind of like just like whatever and then I saw it saw it from the corner of my eye when I'm playing the song and she was just like like this looking into the like this the car speakers and it was like what was that I need to hear it again I was like what really so I kept replaying she was absolutely obsessed and that made me like super confident I was like okay there is something here that we need to really really need to chase and I told Sam this and Sam was very happy and originally we had a different feature that didn't happen and I think it's all like the universe stars align and then Sam suggested Kim and she came in an absolutely crushed there are so many albums and so much music that you've produced I know a lot of people who've produced more and released more music but their ratio isn't as impressive which says a lot about your patience and finishing songs and albums but there are a lot of albums that you clearly spent a lot of time on that maybe didn't succeed in the same ways that you probably assumed when you saw the names attached to it or you know working on soundtracks that maybe didn't blow up right how do you deal with releasing songs and albums that don't meet your expectations I think it's always tricky because it's hard to not be like down when something doesn't work quote unquote but at the end of the day you also can't control it the only thing you could do is do your best and make sure you're having fun while making it and it's authentic and all that then you kind of have to once it's out it's out you can't do anything else and you have to just keep it there as soon as you start tinkering oh I should have done that it's my fault I should have it's too fast or this kick is wrong or whatever it is as long as you know you've done your best that that has helped me in that sense of like at least I did my best that was all I could do at that point in time and if it didn't happen then it it was a meant to be or something maybe eventually you know songs nowadays six years later can become big yeah totally yeah I think that's maybe the best part of this era is that a song that came out five ten years ago if it hasn't had a little it's light yet right there's still part of me it's like I'll people will discover this it'll get some commercial it'll get something there'll be some story about it someone's gonna discover it'll be a whole thing right and that's fine yeah like you know it it doesn't need to happen right now um the last few years you know you never had it doesn't seem like you've had a law since 2012 which is insane 2014 from like the smash smash smash right the but the last the last few years the the quantity and the dedication you've had for specific projects is insane basically the entire you know cold play album which if that's all you had in the year that'd be great right eternal sunshine all the arey stuff insane Conan Gray then he and Elisa tape McCray Ed Sheeran that's not even getting into Enkelied right all that music if you were trying when you know when you talk about Santa tell me which we haven't even gotten into yet but like when you have a it a song that takes weeks or months to finish how do you actually finish this much music when do you do this it's literally so the easiest what is describe it is when people are at the studio which is the only place I hang and they're like have you been to Sotasau or this restaurant I'm like no I literally only live in the studio and I live at home so this this it's like an insane amount of just obsession in the studio like 14 hour days which is not healthy but I think for me I've gotten better at balancing it out but I'm not perfect yet but initially it would be like non-stop every day 14 hours I would try to go home when we live closer studio go home and eat dinner with the fam and back that's how it would finish and be meticulous and do all my things um yeah I think I just don't have anything else I do other outside of music I love video games and stuff but I just don't have time to play it's literally music 24/7 making music is video game adjacent yeah I like playing video games too but if I'm sitting in front of I use logic but if I'm playing you know two three four days on a on a song it's just like it's just a cool game yeah yeah and that's very oh yeah that that thing that that drum sound that whatever you know it's very nerdy what is Chris Martin teach you about being a frontman of a band being a frontman of a band I mean Chris is absolutely fantastic have you met him having I had such a I don't get what's the called when you see star struck I don't get star struck that often there's two times in my life I get star struck maybe three two where what are the times you've been star struck Chris first time I met Chris because Coldplay is my absolute favorite banal all time there's a funny story about like law of attraction and and Coldplay that I'll tell you in a second but and then the first time I was actually star struck was usher in Conway because Conway for the people that know is a big recording studio and it's like different artists can be there it's be there at the same time and the this small kitchen that is just for everyone And I was in one of the lounges and I was about to go to the rushroom, had to pee really bad. And I hear Usher's voice, I was like, that's not sure, you know, and I just froze in the lounges. I was like, okay, cool, cool, I just went out, just went to the restroom, but I was freaking out internally. Because I grew up with his music. That was the first time, and then second time was Chris Martin, and the third time was Justin Timberlake, I believe. But Chris is a fantastic, like, absolutely lovely human being. The more I got to know Chris, it's all about love and passion about music. It's very passionate, it's very from the gut, from the heart. It's so fun working with Chris. And one time, I do a lot of, like, law of attraction things, and I'm very spiritual. And I have this thing called, there's a thing you call, called Mind Movie, I call it. I think it comes from Dr. Joe Dispenser, one of his books. But anyways, mind movies basically, you put together things that you want to accomplish and you watch this with music that makes you feel good or put. And this is stuff that I would do even as a teenager way back, just like to get in the right frequency and good head space and the positive mindset. And this mind movie I had, which is just personal, but I had co-play music in the background. And I sat with Chris one time, he wasn't, we weren't working then, it was there to work with Max. And I was like, you know, it's funny. Your music is like in my mind movie, and it was like, put some mind movie and I told him about there. Yeah, law of attraction. You're like, clearly it's working because you're sitting right next to me talking to you right now. I was like, that's right. I haven't even thought about that. It's crazy. Like this last year and a half is just nuts. It's not all people that are, you know, cold plays on this legacy level and Ari's all over the place. Maybe she's both legacy and I've clearly for the pedals she's still doing the thing. But Tate and Lisa and some of this, you know, you're still aiming for some new artists and nailing it. Being able to work with artists like Lisa and Tate at this point in your career, why does that matter? I think it's, for me, healthy, it's healthy to collaborate and find artists that you can provide stuff. I'm not trying to work with artists that, of course, I need, I, I really, I, I really want to love their music and love their artistry, but I also want to make sure I can be of assistance. So I think anytime I work with newer artists, I just want to make sure that my one thing is that I usually meet them if it's not pitch, which is rarely is, I usually meet them first and we have a sit down and we talk and see if it's just the vibes. If I can, do I, do I fit in your project? Can I be of assistance? And then I think it's important also to collaborate as much as you can with newer, newer artists and also to keep yourself, your ideas young and fresh and and because I, I do believe the collaboration of, even with young writers and producers as well, but artists, per se, is specifically important for you, for your growth as a producer and writer. But in general, my main thing is to make sure that I can be of assistance more. With, you know, we didn't really talk about the songs from Eternal Sunshine, but you've so many songs to talk about them, yes, and and whatnot and all these, you know, what you've done well is talk about the different eras, you know, create different eras for foreign with Ari. Tell me about the differences in how you've approached the last two eras, Eternal Sunshine into pedal. So the difference, this time around was with Eternal Sunshine and pedal, it was the two-room situation was very fruitful because Ari could very go in and into her soul and write on the mic and there's and there's not always that she just brings it to her room solos. Sometimes we're in the room like me and Max with her, like with hate that I made you love me. We started it together, but she's on the on the mic actively, free styling. I think there's even a version out there we can literally see her write the song live or like in real time. But with those two albums, it was very much like a two-room situation I would be producing and then for Eternal Sunshine, Max and Ari would be in the main room writing melodies and I would jump in and give notes and stuff and they would come into my room with the production side and give notes and bounce back and forth. With pedal, Max was busy, so it just ended up being unplanned, it just ended up being me and Ari just going continuing working after the hate that I made you love me sessions. And we kind of just continue on the same wavelength of two rooms, so you have your say space of creating with your own mic, producing it and recording on your own and then I had my say space in the production side and track making side. That was a big difference between the earlier stuff. We're in October, so it's almost Christmas, Santa tell me, tell me about you guys writing Santa tell me. Yeah, that one was, first of all, I absolutely love Christmas, like me and my family, both my mom and we sweeten, you know, Christmas is not religious per se, it's like a culture role thing as well. So we celebrate Christmas and when I can't, I don't really know whose idea was probably Salvin or whoever idea was that we should try and make a song like a Christmas song for Ari or if it was actually Ari's idea that said that to Salvin, I don't know that, but Salvin comes to me and was like, let's try and make a Christmas song. And he prompted that to several other Wolf cousins, I remember as well, trying to make a beat that worked for that. But me and Salvin, we have this wavelength thing again, the same taste and things and I made something that he gravitated to and he had this chorus that he's, I think he came up with in the shower or something and he sent it to me based on, and it worked on the track that I had done. So I kind of built it out, I wasn't sweetened them. And then from there on, it just, I keep getting ideas, I sent him ideas, he sent back and forth and we had like a structure of what the song was and then I can't remember when we cut it with Ari. We had like, it was like summer or something, but we had like Christmas decorations, it happens pretty quick. Salvin had Christmas decorations all over and we recorded it and yeah, that song took a lot of time to produce. I don't think I've spent more time on any other production, to be honest. It was like months in my head, I was like, this has to be a classic, this has to be, like you have to aim for, it has to sound like a classic success. I don't know what that means, but I was just, you know, it's now on everybody's playlist every year. Yeah, I'm so grateful. Well, listen, thank you for doing the podcast, thank you if I haven't, I, I'm so impressed with what you've done as a producer and as a writer, but I know you well and you are, you, you do it with such humility and you do it for the right reasons. You're so obsessed with making sure the songs are good. That's it. All these other people who are looking for something else and the answer's so simple, yeah. - It's just hard to do. - Right. - It's just hard for people to finish things. - Right. - And there aren't a lot of people who do what you do, and there are very few people who do what you do without the pomp and people talking about the human for all of this thing and that thing, whatever. You've just done it, I don't wanna say under the radar 'cause it's very loud in my radar. And if you know are, you know what's going on. You know, but you've just done this whole thing with such elegance and I'm just happy you're my friend, man, I'm really impressed, - Thank you. - And I hope that with the success of things like Ozzy, you know, the success of all the work now that you feel like you've proven your worth. - You know, every time I see you winning another producer of the year in Sweden or being, you know, it's like, I guess I should pose it more as a question, have you finally proven your worth? - I'm getting there, getting there. I'm trying to give myself grace, is that the way you say it, but to be able to be home more, and to be able to finally realize that it's okay to not work 24/7. It's okay to not, you've done a good job. It's okay, I'm getting there. I'm not there yet, but there's a part of me that's like, "But there's so much stuff you need to do." And then she's like, chill out, you're good. So I'm getting there. - I think that's the trick is boundaries. And setting the boundaries and sticking to them, it'll never shut off. - Right. - That's the problem with it. - It's weird because you have this, well, you, I have this side that is the chip on your shoulder side, that you just have to learn how to control. And like, obviously I try to do it in with positive energy. But there's one funny thing is that one time I can share this, it's fine. But in the middle of the night, my chip on my shoulder person wakes me up, I wake up, and it's like, you're not number one in the world right now. And I'm like, dude, really? Right now, can I just sleep? So once you realize that I think the key is to realize that that person exists and you could kind of just like, 'cause otherwise, you just become one with that. And it's fine, if it pushes you and takes you to great lengths and success and all that stuff. But at the point where it becomes unhealthy, where you wake up in the middle of the night, I think you need to detach from that person and kind of calm them down a little bit. - I feel like my person is like this. It's like a literal voice. It literally has been my whole life is like, basically like, I wanna do something great. - Yeah. - And no matter what I've achieved, it's always just like, you're gonna produce something great. And it's just like, there's a drive to produce something great. And I don't know for whom. - Right. - I assume it's for myself and I, you know, but I think I hear this voice over and over again. And it is also like, nothing gets you, fuming like a 2.30 in the morning wake up. Where you're like, all right, let's go. And then these are going through all the strategy, you know? - Well, I mean, I'll say this, like I don't know what more you could do at this point. But I am putting it out there in the universe. You are absolutely worthy of a Grammy nomination for producer of the year this year. - Thank you. - I think you've been worthy of it before. And I don't think that people recognize your contribution to pop music. And I was so excited that you finally, I've been on this only you and I know how much we've talked about you being on this. It's been about 10 years of talking about it. So it makes sense right now that we're doing this. And I guess we'll just keep doing this 'cause it's super easy. - Yeah, I'd love to. - Thank you for doing this. - I appreciate it. - Thank you. ♪ Bop, bop, bop, bop, bop, bop ♪