Ep. 266: Tinashe’s Guide to Making It on Your Own Terms

Welcome to And The Writer Is! I am your host, Ross Golan. Today's pop star has ground through grinded through, trekked through, pretty much every obstacle the music industry can throw at an artist. She's been signed independent, underestimated, rediscovered, and throughout all of it remained herself. A talented songwriter, performer, and dancer, this artist has never been interested in what the industry says she's supposed to be because she already knows who she is. And The Writer Is! My friend, Tannasha! Wow, thank you for that beautiful intro. I just looked up when I first worked with the Stunners. Wow. And we must have met around the end of 2008. Yeah, I was gonna say over. Over 15 years. That's insane. That's insane. Like, I don't know if people know enough of your story of you. It's a lot of lore. I guess we should explain who the Stunners are. I was in a girl group and I joined this girl group and I was 14 years old and Ross was one of the writers that we worked with, collaborated with on some of our songs, which was amazing. How did you meet, so Colleen, Vitamin C who did like, she put us all together, she was the mastermind behind it. How did this happen? I auditioned for the group. It was classic Hollywood. We're gonna throw an audition, but I knew someone, I knew, I was in a musical at the time and she, it was called 13. It was at the. Why is everybody in 13? We were just talking about, I was trying to rhyme baby back because that's like where he first started. How do you know the Jason Robert Brown? I mean, it's a small world, it's a small industry. You know, when you've been in it a long time, a lot of these things. Well like Ariana Grande started in 13. Yeah. Rhyme Bateson in 13. What about you? And where was there? Where did you do your show? It was at the Mark Taper 4. I'm so it was like the original cast that they were like, we're shopping the script and everything. We did the. Yeah, it was, it was really fun. I was 13 years old when I was in that musical. Anyways, I met a girl in that musical who played Kendra in 13 and she was like, oh, I'm going to be in this girl group. Like, we're looking for a black girl. You should audition. And I was kind of like, I always wanted to be a solo music artist. I don't know if I want to be in a group, but I also had zero music industry experience. Absolutely none. So I was like, I mean, good opportunity. Let's see what happens. Audition for the group. And then before you know it, we were working in studios and working with songwriters and going on tour and making music videos. And it was like a crash course in the music industry really, really young and it was really fun. Wow. So you were, I mean, 13 years old, you're already working professionally. Yeah. That's wild. Yeah. It's been a lifetime thing for me. So it's never been like one particular moment when people are like, what was the moment? When you hear of somebody now whose 13 is pursuing art, what do you say to them? I honestly, I just try to like get to know from a core level, like, is this is this really what you're passionate about? Because me at 13, I was, I was very, very passionate about it. And I think you can tell when it's coming from a genuine place and that kid. And then I'd be like, you know what, keep going. Like you're on the right path. Honestly, if you're already doing it at 13, you have an advantage. So keep going. What age could you first start singing? Five or as soon as I could talk, I started singing. I wrote my first song. I remember when I was five. What's that song? It was called Deep in the Night. How does it go? Deep in the night alone on barren ground. Someone comes in looking around. It's kind of spooky. Spooky. But this is like your complicated melody and you use the word bearing. I know. I don't know what that came from. I was reading like Little House on the prairie backman. Like, I was, I was on some weird, weird shit. I was a nerd. You should sample their life. You know, I put it, I put a little sample of it. I want to say on one of my projects. I want to say maybe a queer, maybe my debut album. I'd have to check that. Hey guys, real quick, over 90% of you are not subscribers to this channel. And following the channel allows us to keep bringing you incredible guests each week and growing the channel to offer more of your favorite writers and producers and industry folk, especially artists. It gives us a platform to tell their stories to you. If you can, hit that subscribe button. Thank you. Now, back to your episode. You really like French fries. I love fries. So you ate food before you did music? I did. I feel. Are you, is it is it Crinkle fries or is it is it a steak fries? Oh, who likes steak fries best? That's a hot taste. You know what, you know why? Why? You like them best? That's your personal choice. No, but I think my wife likes them best. And this is why there's the area of a steak fry that you can use to dip more ranch or you could, you could argue that for a waffle fry. I'm a waffle frizer. By the way, to my wife's credit, she probably likes those too. Yeah, I mean, I like them all. So I'm with her on that. Like, I won't turn down a steak fry. And I definitely prefer a little bit crisp. I feel like it was just important to mention the fries being that you're famously a fry kind of sore. Is that a weird thing to have like as a label? No, I love it. Because then it's like well earned. Because then I know when I go places that there will be fries waiting sometimes. Okay, so you you eat some fries, you then start writing songs in the house and singing. And then who in the house is like, whoa, this is legit. Like we should start sending you to my dad was like an aspiring theater actor. And so that was kind of like the bridge. So he got me an agent. So really young. You were living in LA already at this point? No, when I was five, I lived in Chicago outside of Chicago. Where? It was in a city called decalbed. I'm from Chicago. I'm from South Chicago. Yeah. It certainly didn't feel like where you go if you actually wanted to like really pursue acting. Which is why? How quick did you realize that? I booked a job when I was about seven. What was that job? It was called. It was a movie called Call Me Clos. I played young whoopie Goldberg. No way. Did you meet whoopie? Oh yeah. But you know what? Did you meet Santa Claus? I met Santa. I met Santa. Yeah, you know, because I. So you met whoopie? Yeah, I played her younger, which is so funny. And then I think do you still get residuals for that? Yeah, because sometimes they show it on TV during Christmas time. Which is great. It was like on lifetime. What was the last time you saw it? A while ago. You don't watch it every Christmas? Oh no, that's not our inner back. If I'm a watch one of my Christmas movies, I'm watching The Puller Express. I don't know. It's more of a classic. Yeah, yeah, family. But yeah, so we shot it in LA, flew out here and then I was like, oh, I'm going to have to make that move. So my parents moved a whole family. Been here ever since. But were you gonna do, I mean, musical theater at this the wrong city for that? So how did you get in it? How did you get into, you know, if you have an agent, if you have an agent in TV or film, it's not the same person who's necessarily helping you out and everything. I have no idea how I got into 13. I'm assuming I just auditioned like I auditioned for. Was Arianna in that version of it? She was in the New York cast. She was in the next version of it. Did you ever think of going to New York to do it? I was offered to go to New York to do it. And why didn't you do it? Because I was in the stunters at the time. Oh, so when I was in the stunters. I was in this girl group. I had just joined this girl group, fresh out. And honestly, I was loving it. I got to live out my pop star fantasy. I didn't want to, I didn't want to go to New York. It was off-broad. I was like, it's off-broadway. I don't want to do that. I don't want to stay here on a focus. And so I did. I made the choice to stay where it could work with the stunters. That's where we met. I was thinking about the song you wrote, honestly, for the stunters this morning. Do you know it? Because I don't know it. It was like watching the rain fall love. Oh yeah. It was like a, it was like a song about like change. It was like very inspiring. Hell yeah. That's a good one. Wow, that's just, that's just made me happy. What's it, there's this world of the non-famous girl groups that people, I'm, I'm boy bands that, that tour around and they play malls and they play all the things and parking lots and, you know. And the album never comes out. The boutiques and whatever versions of it. Yeah. For somebody who doesn't, you know, most people know cat's eye and black pink. Of course. But the, the 40 groups that are below that, that all have a shot. What is the life of somebody who's in a girl group? It's a lot of going to rehearsals, learning choreography. It's going into the studio record. It's all of the things, it's like you're in making the band. Like, that's what it's like. The only thing that is not fun about it is obviously, there's no creative, you can't have any input. That was really kind of rubbing me the right way, wrong way. Eventually, we started being able to write on some of our songs, but at the beginning, we just sang whatever was given to us, didn't get to name ourselves, didn't get to dress ourselves, things like that. - What do you mean, name yourself then? - Like the stunner, it's like we didn't choose that name. - Right. - So it was very much-- - Yeah, it says young women have that conversation. I think we should be called something different or we should be something different. - I don't even think, I don't even think across our mind that we like had the option, I think. I think it was very much, to me, I was just happy to be there, honestly. - Yeah. - And I was so, yeah, I was 14. And it was like the girls in the group were a range of like 14 to 17, 18. So it wasn't like we were, had a lot of experience. - Too young to be the leader of a group? - I think I just was very naive about the, like, I don't know, what that even meant. Again, I was happy to be there. So I was, I was excited to sing more vocals and to stand in the middle and to like have those moments, but I think, yeah, looking back on it, it was, it was a lot of responsibility. It was a lot, but I enjoyed it, I don't know. What's the process of going from that to going solo? - For me, how long were you in the group? - I was in the group for four years, which felt like a really long time when you're at the teenager. - This your high school? - 'Cause it was basically, yeah, my whole high school time. And so when I was 18, I was, I had my residual checks from acting as a kid, and I was like, I'm gonna buy a microphone, I'm gonna make a studio in my bedroom, and I'm gonna make my own music for the first time. Well, I record my own music for the first time. So that's what I did. I built a studio. I taught myself how to use pro tools and logic and started recording my own music, putting it online. - Who showed you how it works? - A lot of just like observing, obviously like being in studios with the stunners gave me like an observation of how music's recorded stacks. It's just the process, how they would cut things up, how what pro tools looked like, watching them edit it. And then honestly, it was, I had this boyfriend when I was really young, who was in this group called the new boys, and he had made their first hit. It was called your jerk on his computer at his house. So he was very much like DIY everything. He was like, I make all my stuff in my bedroom. And I was like, well, if he can make songs in his bedroom, I can certainly make songs in my bedroom. So I think he kind of opened my mind to the possibility that I could learn on my own via YouTube tutorials. So that was really, so that was really kind of how I learned YouTube tutorials, watching them, trying it, and I figured it out. At first it wasn't great, obviously, but. - Did you feel better? - You missed out on a normal high school because you spent it doing that or does that not? - I mean, I certainly did, but I don't feel like I, like darn, I wish I had gone to a normal high school. I don't feel that way. - Going on the solo thing and making music by yourself, were those songs immediately at the level that you felt like they should be? - I mean, from like a mix perspective, no, but from a songwriting perspective, yes, I think some of my first solo songs were, still to this day, some of my personal favorites that I've ever written, I love like my first project that I made, and I made, in case we die, probably within a year of starting to make my own songs in my bedroom. - How did you navigate the label world? - You were assigned a. - RCA? - Yeah, yeah. - Were the stunners assigned RCA? - No, the stunners were assigned to Columbia. - So when you left that and then you get signed to RCA, were there expectations? - Yeah, from me? - Or from. - I don't know, from both. - I mean, I don't think the world had expectations of me. I was completely fresh, which is the benefit of being a brand new artist. There's no pressure. But I think I certainly had expectations, naively that it would be, I got signed really fast. So it seemed like, oh, this is gonna be easy. I made a song, boom, I got signed. I made a, I put out my first single, boom. It became really popular. It seemed like the momentum was just there, which kind of, again, really reflected how my journey was as a kid. I just followed this momentum, it seemed very easy. And I think the reality check came like a bit later when I was like, oh, the music industry is not always gonna be just this easy thing that just continues to happen for me. I'm gonna have to, you know, experience some highs and lows. - The strange thing is, had it been easy, there would be no discography to support that. When it does happen easy for somebody who's young, who doesn't have seven studio albums out before, like fast forward to now, if it works, you know, if it's, you know, and anytime somebody gets into their tonache mode, there's a day's worth of music, straight streaming, that has value for both the fan and for you. You want the slow build. You just, you just have to weather the storm. - Absolutely, because I say this all the time that I'm very thankful for that exact reason, because I think it's so much more difficult and so much harder to be prepared for the moment when you just don't have the experience. And there's just no substitute for experience. Like the more you create, the better you get at it, the more comfortable you are with, you know, not making good songs, making good songs, having great air, you know, like you just get more, you just get better, you know? When you release the first album, you know, I guess mixtape was probably the first thing that came out on our CA. What was that like to now have to tour solo, having toured with other women and having gone through, you know, a group scenario to, oh, I'm, - Yeah, I mean, it was a lot different. I think what I was really enjoying at the time was the ability to create my own world, create my own show, build my own world, have my own dancers and lights and all the things. And yeah, have a live band. We didn't have a live band before. So that was my first experience with that. So yeah, the first show I played was like, South by Southwest, I think. And you know, the ceiling was like right here. And it was sweaty. - With the literal ceiling. - Yeah, no, like the actual ceiling in the venue was like right here. And yeah, it was a tiny stage. So it was kind of nice that it was just me 'cause it was a little bit of a stage, you know. - Just five of you on every, like, impossible. - Yeah. - Everybody keep their elbows in. - No, literally. I mean, you know, it's pretty quick that, but I feel like the industry was really friendly. Like the first, you know, when you get to black water and stuff, it's like, these are pretty big names that are collaborating with you. You know, it's the biggest producers in the world when you have Boy Wonder and stuff like that working on your album. Did you feel like at that point that it was still fluid and that it was easy? - Yeah, because like, kind of like you mentioned, like I just started making music and I kind of met these people and built these relationships pretty quickly, pretty easily. Yeah, I don't know how to describe it. It was just like boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. I signed with RC, I had put me in the studio with the first, the first guys I was in with were like Drake's camp guys. It was into the thick of it. - Hey guys, if you ever wanted to get further in the world of Man the Writer is, if you ever want to sit in that seat across from me, well, guess what? You can now join the conversation. That's right, 'cause we just launched our Patreon. You'll get access to our monthly Zoom hangs where we'll listen to demos, your feedback, you can hang with us directly and we can hang with you too. Look, occasionally we'll bring on some guests that will chat with our community and maybe most importantly to me, you are going to have access to our 200 archived audio episodes. That's episodes of Charlie XCX and Sabrina Carpenter and Lin-Manuel Miranda and Shania Twain and Babyface so much, so many great interviews that you can get amazing insight and knowledge from. So come and check it out in the description below. There's a link for you to join us on Patreon. Let me tell you about Splice's Sounds plugin. It brings millions of royalty free high quality samples right into your DAW, making it easier to search, preview, and drag and drop sounds all over within your project in any DAW, FL Studio Logic Pro, you know how it works. 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It's like certain things look, you know, the show 13 was a lot different from the perspective of 2026 than it does in 2007 and I hate or whatever it is. Kind of. But being working with the Drake guys, he's at that point the hottest, newest guy at that point. What's it like entering those rooms as a young female? It was intimidating. I'm not going to lie because before then I've been making all my music on my own in my room without having to work with anyone else. And so I'm walking into these rooms and oftentimes I actually am fully alone. Like I didn't have an entourage. I didn't. My managers lived in New York so they oftentimes were not with me in the studio. I didn't bring friends. So it just be like me and these guys and there's also this like, you know, I'm young and I'm like 20 and then there was a lot of like, you know, flirtiness and weirdness and I felt like I always had to like. Kind of. Get over these humps with people. And to get them to like take me seriously and there was also a lot of times where I felt like people just kind of didn't really listen to my opinion because that was kind of like. The label made set this up. She's a cute young girl in the studio. Like she doesn't know. And so that was kind of a big learning curve for me because before then, like I said, I'd never considered anyone's opinion. Now I want to. I'm excited to work with these people. I want to, you know, be collaborative and there was a long period of time where I was. A bit more, I guess just like less comfortable being like, no, this is what I want to do 100%. But somebody who can produce, I mean, at that point, you're producing at home. Yeah. You know, I felt like once I signed with the label that kind of, I don't know, wasn't like a factor in my writing sessions for some reason. I don't know why. Is that because of you or because of the label? I don't know, maybe a little bit of both. I do think I was just very inexperienced. Like I said, with collaboration and with songwriting with other people. And there was. Over the years, I think I just got so much better at being able to have my perspective and say it and be collaborative and not feel. It kind of felt sometimes like it was all or nothing. Like I'd work with people who obviously would understand where I was coming from, let me take the lead, let me have that kind of creative control. And I'd be like, really excited. And then there'd be the flip side of that word. Be recording a song that I was like, I hate this. I hate this song. So honestly, the process of making my first album I recorded probably 200 songs. No way. A lot of songs. How many outside songs did you cut at the time? Because you were saying there were a lot of songs that you had to record and then you're like, I hate this. I hate this. I would say maybe half. I feel like maybe a hundred songs were songs that other people had written. And then like a hundred songs were songs that I had written with people or written myself. And now looking back on the album, majority of all the songs were songs I wrote. So I guess I got to the other side eventually. The writing process that with that crew tends to be, here's a track right a song over this music. Yeah. Is that your experience? I think sometimes it was that, but a lot of times, yeah, a lot of times it was that. I wasn't less involved in the production aspect I think in the earlier days than I am now. Could you even select the tracks that you wrote over or those sort of like that you write over this? I hate at the time it was bigger than it is now, but people would be like, this track is a hit. This is the one. And we're like, there's nothing on it. This is the one though. I dare you to release this as it's been. Yeah, no, I would experience a lot of sessions where I'd walk in and they'd be, that's what I kind of mean by all or nothing. I'd be like, this is the only song we can make because I know better. I've done this, like this is the hit. And I also felt that there was a lot of like blind agreeance from like people on my team when I would work with really big producers or the big names. There'd be a lot of pressure to be like, we have to use this one because so and so made it. Yeah, a lot of those guys would charge so much even to get in that it's like you already paid for it. I remember one session with someone who I will not name, but I would sit there for, I think it was like, I want to say I showed up at noon. And he didn't arrive until like 9 or 10 p.m. So there was like a lot of stuff like that too where I just be like sitting around for a long time. It's a weird, it's a weird truth then. Like you can't explain what it's like when you're in a room and also or like you're in a room full of people are all zanxed out. And you're like, what is happening? What am I doing in this room? It would my life, but I also would stay in room so much longer than I would nowadays too. Like I would sit there for like, I would be like, we've got to stick this one out. You know, whereas nowadays if I'm like not feeling it, if I'm in a room. Well, the advice you give to a 22 year old pop star who's now put in a studio with the biggest producers in the world. I would say that's probably one of my biggest pieces of advice is don't feel the pressure to like make a song just because this. This session is so important or you know this time period is like you have there. There's just too much. If it doesn't feel right, if you're not in the mood, if whatever is happening like I think you have to go with that gut instinct because forcing yourself beyond that is just genuinely not that productive. Kind of waste your time. So when I talk about this with some people about how can we create a like an orientation program the way that pro sports has. You know where people who are recently signed to a major publisher or record company could go and learn about you know this is etiquette. Yeah, this is the this is the business. Yeah, you just you just signed this deal. This is what you gave up. This is what you're getting. This is the this is etiquette in a session. This is how you definitely deal with like sexual harassment. This is how you deal with you know alcoholism and drug addiction. This is like there should be a weekend like that just like they do with pros. Yeah. Or it doesn't matter if you're drafted first or seven hundred and eighty of like you're still you know in this. Totally. You still have to go to the same program be like this is how you survive. I mean, I think that could be helpful. There's a lot to learn, but again, it's just I think I learned that by just like over the years experience and working with so many different people and then you kind of like, oh, this is how this what works for me. Walking out of a studio is really hard. Yeah, it is. It really is when it was easier said than done. Yeah. You know, in retrospect, I'm sure that like all of us have been in sessions where we should have walked out like you know you're just grinding through it. What's the best way to leave a session that sucks? You know, you got to just you just got to be real. You got to be like, I mean, not totally real, but you got to be like, you know, I got it this thing I got to do tonight. Sleep. I got to go. I don't know if it's got to go. Yeah, I think I think it's I think it's important to know that because I do feel that even in rooms with like young songwriters that I'll work with nowadays. That maybe they I can tell that they feel and I understand because it's big opportunities every time you write a song to like write the hit, write the one. And I think it's it's not necessarily always conducive to the creative process to like push past that point if it's just not feeling right to me personally. One of the things you've gotten to now, which we'll get to, but because you're so part of the production process, the writing process, you're with the same crew of people generally speaking, that you can go in every day and take a risk. And not every day is about the hit. Yeah, and at that point in your career, you're in a new day with new people. And if you're in for one day and you're from their perspective, you're like, all I have is this day to infer the single that they say they don't have. Yeah, so I get it, you know, with your skills. Have you written a lot with other people for other people like not on purpose if that makes sense. Would you? I've considered it, but in a way What are you What are right now? Probably not Well, you're also promoting an album. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean just like it's You know, I'm very precious with my ideas. I think yeah, so if I'm writing an idea, I think it's good I'll be like well, I don't want that's my idea. You know, yeah, so you're also a producer like you can also just go in and just like I am I definitely could I'm just throwing out there. Okay, so you know Too on when too long comes out With schoolboy Q. Yes, it was really exciting because it was like oh my god. That's That's the girl that like I worked with years ago. She's like a grown woman who's just Killing it and it's everywhere. I know you've talked about the song a lot But it becomes this defining moment in many ways. Yeah Was that the moment that you felt like it was still very fluid or was that a moment where you're like Oh, this isn't what I thought it would be it was the my first single So again, it kind of just felt like my first single was a success since then I've put out so many singles that have not been a success so to put out a song that still 10 years later is like one of You know, it's it's has stood the test of time. I think that was just it's uncommon I your very very first song is like that. So yeah, it was it was still fluid It was still just riding the waves. I was like this is fun. This is great Everything I put out is gonna be great, but that was that was quickly changed because the second song I put out was not successful How did you deal with that? I? I honestly just Went to the next single like immediately. I was very at the time impatient. I think that's the other thing when I was young I was like okay one song February next song March next song April and I would be very frustrated By the cadence of like the system because it felt so much slower than how I wanted to release and I do think it's become quicker now But it felt like everything was like pulling teeth to get a record out and that was really frustrating for me When you hear to on out. Mm-hmm How do you feel like you hear the first? I still think it's like I think it's a great song I think it's melodic. It's got a fun like concept. It's catchy. It's cool There's like not much else that like literally sounds like that song and I think that's I'm proud of it for sure when you hear The second and third and fourth single do you feel the same way? No, no But then you know the special thing about To on was it was also a song that like I wrote with my friends like in a garage in like their house So we kind of had that special energy and then the second song that I put out was a song that I had kind of Changed a little but it was written for me basically So I didn't feel that same connection to it, you know and I Don't even remember what the third single was Isn't that crazy It's just it's just so crazy because that's the realness like you're You know, there's that thing like fog of war. Mm-hmm. You know, it's like I With all the things going on you think you can gain strategy and perspective But the only way you get perspective is time and in the moment you're like the rushing through stuff is That's what I'm saying. I was just like next. Okay, that didn't work next. I also didn't even give things time to cook because I was like Yeah, I'm burning daylight here people Was ready. Would you have changed that like doing it again? I think that was I think that's what I Wouldn't say what part of the reason why I've been able to have a successful long-term career is because I kept releasing music tenaciously. Yeah, you know, I mean you got so many good nominations and From the two on stuff that from that era there was like all the like TV stuff there's like, you know, they're and there's they're just different nominees There's even just winning a BMI award these things I like really forgot about that too. You got the stats. Yeah, yeah I study you have the stats right there. I mean, I'm not you know I say my first idea. I like that But you like it's you get you get um You know those those are Those are real acknowledgments of a newcomer even though at that point Like well one of things that this industry fails to do over and over again is Conflate somebody who's young with somebody with experience. Mm-hmm. And somebody who is at this point what twenty-two Twenty-one you'd been working professionally already Send for eight years. Yeah, and most people are twenty-one haven't started yet. Yeah, so somebody might be like Oh, she's young I say no no she's been performing in front of humans now For eight years. Yeah eight years of experience is a ton of experience. Yeah, and I think You know at that point if it takes 10 years to make an overnight success you're scratching on that door. Oh, yeah first show So it's kind of crazy. It's I think it may have been your first commercial single right? Well, you've been releasing a lot of music No, you're right absolutely and I was ready in that regard But you know, I wasn't I didn't know the ride I would be on tell me about the garage that you wrote Too long in yeah, it was just it was right over here Um, and you know out here in LA it was with my friend Red wine and Bobby Brackens and there was like I remember the studio They like had like you know when it was cloud lights. You had a cloud light. It was very viby and like purple neon Yeah, just another day right in songs with my friends That's funny. Did you come in with the concept? Mm-hmm. No It was just like We would sit in the room And I mean I'm not gonna lie. I think like the two on Wording I bet you anything that that was Bobby Brackens idea. He was like he's from the Bay Area and he had all the lingo So what's it been writing with people from the Bay Area? I don't know It's like Callie connection. I don't know. I love making like California music. So maybe that's part of it What's California music? It's just got like a swag to it I'm like a bpm It's like 94 to like 99 it's a little faster. You think I think compared to like most most things that are rmb hip hop I feel like land and that sort of 70 to 90 yeah It's got bounce to it. It's got a bounce California music has a bounce which I like When you go after that and you start recording like you you're so prolific. Yeah So much music You've done so much music. Yeah. I have Did you think having had a hit that you knew what a hit was? um No Do you know what a hit is now? No Because I've had so many songs that I'm like this should be a hit and like hasn't so I think I hit I think there's a formula that allows a song to become a hit And then I think past that it's like luck timing What's the formula of a hit? I think generally it's like Something catchy. It's like a melody that you can really An earworm that gets in your head or of saying a phrase that really like gets in people's hearts or minds and Yeah, you know, just sticks with you. Something that's sticky What's a song that wasn't a hit that should have been? Hmm Like I don't know. Maybe my song needs I really like that song. That was that was close. Why is that a hit? melodic fun playful catchy sticky Had a fun video. What do you think made, you know, yeah, I've seen some of your other interviews where you've talked about Between two on and nasty. There's so much that happens so much and navigating the music industry is something that You kind of don't want to wish on your own worst anime, you know what I mean? It's the Wild Wild West for sure It's really complicated. It's very complicated. Tell me about what it's like to be on a major And then starting to release music that isn't reacting It's it's a weird feeling because you start to at least for me. I started to question whether it was because of me or because of them or What you just start Thinking about like who's to blame like the blame needs to be placed somewhere and I think you that that pressure You also feel that pressure from like the surrounding people team crew that like there must be blame We must figure it out. We have to you know because No one wants to like, they don't want to waste their money. So there's always a constant like trying to renavigate or, you know, what is it that's changed this? Let's change that. Let's tweak this. So yeah, I think you're constantly looking for like that validation. And I think it became destructive for me by the end of my relationship with my first major label because I was unclear at that point that like my instincts were the right instincts. I had like lost that, or I felt that it was really slipping away. And I knew that that would have been probably like the worst. That was not an option for me. So I was like, I need to get out of this situation before I reach a point where I don't believe I have any good ideas, you know? Because I felt that the ideas that I had were not respected. I felt that the songs that I wrote were not taken as seriously as the songs that were written for me are presented to me or written by these people. And that really, you know, I started to take that into consideration like, well, maybe they're right. Maybe I can't write great songs. And then I became a lot less confident in my songwriting of production abilities. And then I deferred to other people. And then I was like, this is a mess. Then I had to go independent and reel that back on in. How did you mentally deal with that? Were you going to therapy? No, not the time. Like, how did you do? How do you do? How does a young human at all deal with it? I should have gone to therapy probably. Yeah, it was tough. It was really tough. Who's advising you? Hey, maybe we should try to get out of this. Or was it not up to you? Um, I'm not 100% sure. I just remember feeling like I-- I think it was probably like a group decision between me, my management, my family, people around me that cared about me, you know, that I was probably also expressing that I was just unhappy with the situation. So it was like, what are we going to do? How are we going to make this work? And then I, you know, got my lawyer, Dino LePolt. And she-- Yeah, we love Dina. We love Dina. She is a firecracker, so she was like, you know, I'm like, how am I going to get you out of that situation? We'll figure it out. The one I don't like. Yeah, we love our Dina LePolt. You know, the-- just going through this again, like through the whole process is so intense. And then trying to find yourself while also being an artist, were you able to define Tinashe the human from Tinashe the artist during any of that? I think-- Yeah, I think that was probably my most unclear, because like you're saying, you're going through your early 20s and you're also trying to figure out who you are as an adult as a human as a person. And so I think there was a lot of just trial and error. Or, you know, I was figuring it out. I feel like when I came out the other side, and when I really kind of discovered myself fully, was when I was able to start making music on my own again, for sure? Making music on your own again comes with the whole other list of issues. Like you deal with things like releasing your own music, doing your own music videos. Now you have to do all the stuff. How does a human release music-- Yeah, I understand the general mechanics of it. But if somebody wants to release music independently, what is the job description of an artist's releases independently? Well, number one, you have to make the music. So you have to record it, teach yourself how to make it sound good. You have to create some type of visual at this point, I think, that goes on either represents who you are or has something with it, because we just live in a very visual society. And then the third thing that I would say is you just need to put it out there. You have to release art. You have to put it on YouTube. You have to put it on whatever it is. SoundCloud, you have all these-- there's platforms now where you can distribute your own music and get it onto Spotify app or whatever. But you have to have things out there. You have to allow yourself to be discovered. What was your goal? I know what your goal was at 14. You can see now at the title of your album, what your goal is now. What is your goal when you're releasing music independently? Yeah. I think my initial goal was to just really make it clear and define for myself and the world who I was that I wasn't going anywhere that I was going to continue to release art that there was this tenacious energy I just really wanted. I felt like I had something to prove, really. And that was the goal. And then eventually being independent for some time, I think then the goal was like, OK, I've proven that I can do this without the machine. And now it's like, OK, now I can really explore and become even more free and about who I am and the music I'm making. When we first met, there wasn't social media like there is now. No. There was no Instagram yet, which is crazy. But you adjusted really well with social media. You really embraced it and your choreography, your aesthetic, or the art direction that goes along with the aesthetics of what you've put together seems to be as important as the music itself. It's very important. I want to ask but close. No, that's fair. Were you always your own art director? Yeah, I've always been a visual artist and love to explore that aspect of how I translate my songs. Like, even when I made those mix tapes in my rooms, that was also filming my own music videos. But I mean, I would have my dad hold the camera. And I would edit it or my mom would take-- she took the cover photograph of my mixed tape art. We just went to her office and I was like, OK, we're going to put it on a projector. We're going to put a spine on my back. We're going to project it, take a picture. So I always had ideas. I've always been extremely creative visually in how I want to express. And that's always been really important to me to be able to, I guess, do that. Choreographies evolved a lot in the last 20 years also. And you're such a good dancer. And you're such a good choreographer. But to stay up on that is as complicated as it is to stay up on snare sounds or high-hat sounds. Tell me about your journey as a dancer throughout all this. Yeah, that's so interesting that you mentioned that, because it's very true. I think it's even how people accept movement and people expect movement on stage now is so different than 10 years ago, five years ago. And when I first started learning dance, and I think what has helped me adapt is constantly having an open mind, even from a very young age when I started training in dance, I trained in every style. So I was doing, like, tap ballet, jazz, hip hop. And I've never made it like, oh, I have to make it like this or I have to do it like this. I've never limited my style of choreography even. Like, sometimes I'd be like, OK, let's make something more contemporary and artistic. And then sometimes I'm like, I just want to make something that has like a cool bounce and like a rhythm and you can feel it. And I think having that variety has allowed me to be able to adapt because, yeah, things change constantly, constantly. Does it change how you write the way you dance? I think, like, yeah, I would say so. Because I think I'm always keeping in mind or usually the starting place of a song for me is the rhythm. That's usually where I'm like, OK, let's get a beat going. Like, let's get some, like, what's the tempo? What's the BPM? Like, I like to feel that first. And then I think melody really just kind of spills out of me after that. The journey from, like we're saying, we're now independent and we're going from that to through the beginning of COVID, too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was right. For somebody who's a performer, it was a real-- like, you win people over when you're performing. Sing well, you dance well, you like own stages. That's like your thing. And when you take a stage away, it didn't seem like that really hurt your career. Yeah. It seemed like-- Well, I made an album. I just locked in. I was, like, perfect opportunity. I'm making an album. I think I made two albums during COVID in fact. I made an album in 2020 and then album in 2021. So I was cranking it out. I had a studio downstairs in my house. So I was just making everything at home. Again, like, releasing music, it's still different expectations, more like releasing music. And then you just get to keep doing it, right? I mean, generally speaking, it seemed like the metrics changed. The stats start to change because they're pretty consistent. It seems like your fan base was loyal and stayed through all these albums. Oh, loyal. Yeah. You know, you'd have a few features here there, but for the most part it was still like that you lock in like you're saying doing that. When did your expectations start to change like hmm, I wonder what's on the other side of this independent rainbow and I'd be like okay, I'm gonna go and start seeking out some other twenty twenty three. And why did you start moving away from the idea of doing independent stuff because I just realized like I said I'd kind of like prove what I had set out to prove at least to myself and felt that I'd really shown myself that my instincts were correct and felt like a new found sense of confidence in my own like leadership so I felt like if I got into a situation where you know there's more creatives, there's more. People involved in terms of like a team, I would be able to delegate better or I'd be able to talk about my ideas better, I'd be much more confident in being like no it needs to be like this needs to be like that and so that was the perfect time to you know start exploring that and that's when I met Ricky. So Ricky obviously a good friend of ours. You know Joe and I've known Ricky forever yeah and you might be one of the few people I've known maybe longer than I've known Ricky's and that's weird because I've known him for also probably seventeen years but what makes Ricky great I think what I most connected to him. The way I most connected with him is because I feel like he's a true like artist artist like he understands me at a core level like understands the instinct of an artist even if he doesn't agree with my instinct I think he respects that and that is really amazing because not everyone gets that and. You know if you're releasing music independently I guess maybe before that you had the feature with Calvin Harris right yeah like how did this happen for an independent artist. I knew Calvin from the label days when I was trying to label it's many years before this point yeah I mean I just like did you get a phone call from Calvin Harris yeah. We're like hey Calvin what's a phone call from Calvin Harris like I got a song he's got accent can't do it record you'd be great. I'm talking about the one with more money and offset yeah yeah yeah it's crazy phone call I was pretty great that's great timing to great timing because it really like launches like the oh you know but it's different you know too. granted at that album as is less like EDM me then some other stuff but it's different than the others you know then some of the other things it seems like your voice is really well with EDM and EDM remix it will get to yeah pretty fun but it was is it fun to release music that doesn't sound like. The music that it's like music it seems like music you really enjoy mm-hmm that is not the music that you write by yourself yeah I love that though I love making also having the excuse to make all sorts of different things and having the opportunity to. Dip into different areas and I don't know I've just always kind of been that type of person who like is inspired by that challenge I guess and yeah do you think your genre list I would like to think so I think I like genre leaning but I definitely. I just kind of don't subscribe to genre I think it's just like an antiquated like way of thinking. Kind of understand we need it like label things I guess like really I don't know I feel like we could label things better. What's the best way to label what you do then I feel like we could just label them I don't know I feel like we could label song by like. Tempo like fast songs those songs yeah we could label songs by even like I don't know now I'm getting like too nerdy like color like I feel like songs have certain. You know feelings there's like happy songs there's sad songs there's like emotional songs there's I don't know I just feel like like genre is so yeah it doesn't. It just doesn't describe so many songs so many songs don't fit into a genre so many songs are in a great area between genre I feel like it never actually um. It doesn't define actual artists very well no it defines it defines genres but if you're going to be a real artist you should be on the fringe yeah absolutely you should be pushing some some things you know agreed um. So you go you sign to nice life mm-hmm and. Yeah Nassie's like it kind of blows up yeah Nassie had a moment what's it feel like at that point to be back commercially speaking it was really nice to have the validation I suppose because I was getting so many messages from people like I knew you could do it. I was believed in you and that's just like funny it's like a good feeling you know it's like ah I'm I had already gotten to the point where I'd transcended the need for that. You know I didn't care to if I ever had another viral moment what I would love it but I also had got to the point where I'm like I'm gonna release music and continue to make our regardless of success and then to have a song that was you know commercially successful I think I was like wow yeah sweet love that. The visual part of it obviously had a lot to do with it too yeah yeah you know. What was it like shooting the music video for Nassie it was actually freezing that day really yeah because we were out there in Lancaster and it wasn't the desert which gets very very very cold if it's not hot but it looks like it was hot so we were out there with like blankets and then they'd be like I think it hailed at one point like literally like ice was falling from the sky it was cold. It's obviously does really well and becomes a moment has the 300 million streams and it's like yeah it's still going crazy on tiktok though especially like tiktok really eight that went up why why I think it's just so memeable you know. Do you write for things that are memeable I do not know absolutely not I would never do that on purpose. Now that you've had the success of it are there moments in the studio where you're like that's me no no no no I know I think that's a dangerous path to go down so I mean you can't you can't try to like get your little sound by I don't think that's worth it but I mean I mean how many sessions happens. Only sessions have you been on where somebody's like what's the phrase where it's not the phrase just feeling somebody being like oh my god I can see the trend kind of like that no we've already lost the plot at that point yeah um you you kind of become you know because tannashi music is like is a is a choice yeah as a as a company yeah and you a nice life do this together and having done independent releases. Do you think of yourself as a label exec in a way yeah I definitely do because I am so involved in my own business that to say otherwise would just not be honest have you signed other artists know I haven't will you. I certainly could someday it's not right now one of my like I mean you can just see it with your skill set to be able to write and produce and help somebody or just just you know your instincts are good to have the marketing brain behind the artistic brain behind a record label is super helpful yeah no I agree. Charlie CX is cool she's pretty cool she's cool is she's very cool and she's had a similar run that you had yeah I feel like talk about that yeah we did we did we did we had a conversation kind of being like wow isn't this great I'm so happy for you. But even just the idea of you know she had these hits very early on and those kind of like. She wrote hits for other people yep. But the try the CX we know now yeah no I mean she was grinding from from time and to see her success is is just. You know you love to see it but even she asked me to be a part of a remix on her breath album clap remix album and in the song she talks about she says because we made boom clap and get to want so like she references the fact that. You know we've been doing this we had these big moments really early on and you know we've had this whole journey to get to where we are now and I think that's just really beautiful. What did you learn from working with her that you applied to your new album I think she's just what I relate to her now is this like sense of freedom and this feeling of like being on the other side like I think she too is like post. post-caring so much about whatever the success or how people perceive her. I'm also projecting. I haven't, this is just my assumption. And now she's in this place where it's just coming to her naturally. And I feel like that's such a freedom once you're able to get to that place. And create without those expectations, those pressures. Because in the middle, it's just like, it's not that fun when you're constantly like, I just want it. People to get it, they don't get it, you know? Yeah, it's back to that fluid state that you started with. Speaking of the fluid state, no broke boys, it's just like the best journey. But it goes to the same thing that we're talking about. It's like good things kind of happen once you let go of some of the other things. Totally. It's the first version of it. Very different than the version that has almost like 900 million streams. Tell me about the journey of no broke boys. Yeah. So I wrote no broke boys with Ricky. I wrote in his studio and I was like, I mean, there's something about this song. It's super catchy. It's got this like very laid-back energy, which I love that like contrast there. And it was the last record that we made for the project Quantum Baby. And so, you know, we had already made, Nasty had already kind of like taken off at the time. And we're like, I feel like there's one song missing. Like we just need to go back in for like one more song. And so we made no broke boys. And put it on the album, put the album out. So it's kind of crazy because it kind of felt like one of those situations that like it was meant to be created. You know. Yeah. And then I guess this is the story he tells me. Disco lines heard the song and was like talking to a girl or dating a girl was like, you should remix that. Or I don't know if it was his idea. Anyway, she kind of a-and-arted a little bit. And- How crazy is that? Yeah. She got an a-and-arted a little bit because he said he made a remix initially. And it was kind of like dark and a little bit moody. And she was like, no, make it more melodic. Make it more melodic. This random woman somewhere in the world. Yeah. Love her. Whoever she is because she nailed it. And him, he produced it obviously. But yeah. And then it became the version that went crazy. Seeing the success of that. Yeah. Crazy. I mean, crazy, crazy. It's crazy. And it's going to be a billion streams in, you know, a year from now. It's wild. Or less. Does that change how you write for yourself when you're, oh, man, maybe my fans or other people want to hear the M versions of songs? No. No. I don't think you can do that. I think that's a mistake. I think it's a trap. I think it's a trap. And no, I don't subscribe to that. So I'm just like, that was great. That's awesome. I love that. That record is what it is. And then you just, you know, carry on and keep making records. It's so wild. It won dance song of the year for Ihar Radiant Music Awards. It did. That was so nice. I got my first, like, trophy. Yeah. It's, it's really interesting because you know, maybe I'm biased because I, you know, we've known each other for a while, but it feels like you should be one of those perennial Grammy nominations. Yeah. It feels like you know, I've never been nominated. Maybe someday. But I also let go of that. That used, honestly, that was like one of my absolute biggest life goals four years. I had a Grammy on my phone, Lock Screen, and I was like, I'm not going to change this lock screen until I win a Grammy. I had that thing on my phone's lock screen for like seven years. And I was like, I'm sick of this lock screen. I'm changing it. Like, that's enough. So I eventually, I think transcended that point where I cared that much. I was like, I had like read like the C grader's one thing. I had that on my phone. I'm gonna look at this every day. Well, win a Grammy or at least be nominated, but yeah, still haven't. But when did you take it off your screen? Do you remember? I want to say a frowned, you know what it was? It was really close to the time when, which is the closest thing that I've got to Grammy Recognition. I was on an album that won a Grammy. I wrote a song called The Worst in Me on Kitchen, on his album, and that album won a Grammy. So I got the certificate. Which is great, which is great, which is great. And I think it was maybe like six months before then. And so I thought that was like kind of poetic, because I remember I was like, I had just kind of let this dream go. And like, now I'm getting some recognition. So it seems like, okay, I'm on the right track. You know, you are. And I mean, the new album is excellent. Thank you. Tell me about recording pop star. Yeah. I mean, it was it was really fun. I enjoyed myself with this album. I think I was very playful and made that a big priority that all my studio sessions. I was like, let's just try something. Let's make something weird and fun and just play. So I had a good time making it. And I took my time. I usually make projects pretty quickly. And I made this one over the course of about two years. So I was like, I want to kind of take my time with this one. So you released three songs so far to the public by the time this comes out more than that. Okay. Yeah. But let's play a game. Which song the album should we listen to if we're going out of friends? I mean, I'd say Melatonin. It's like a club song. It's like a dance. It sounds like a dancing. Thanks. Great video. Thanks. Yeah. I love that. That's legit. Thank you. Dina Lapote liked your video. I mean, she's got good taste. What song should we listen to if we're on a date? Oh, on a date, it depends on the kind of day. Maybe like flashbacks. I like that one. That one's like provocative. What's the, what's the song we should listen to if we're walking through New York in the fall? Oh, okay. Walking through New York in the fall. I'm going to say maybe like 25, 8. That one's like, I don't know. It's giving like the weather like there's a cool breeze in the air. And also it's very New York to me, I feel. So I'm going to be crazy if you're listening by yourself and you listen to Melatonin while I'll call you. I mean, maybe just listen. That's great. That's your vibe. Yeah. I support it. I was, I was on a drive last night. It was dark out. I never, I'm never, I'm never out late. What's the song I should listen to at night? Oh, at night. Maybe I'm going to go with pop star. Sing. That one's like very dreamy on a Sunday morning. Maybe cloud nine. That song feels like very heavy and bright. I'm at the cloud. It has to be Melatonin. Melatonin. Yeah. Of course, what song do we have to listen to if we're on a yacht? On a yachts. We're in the French Riviera. I love that. I love that. Maybe I don't know. I have to be listening to Melatonin. I'm partying. Let's go with nobody want to dance anymore. That one's like sexy. Is this a rebrand or is this everyone now starting to discover you? I think it's a, I think I'm just claiming the brand that I've always considered myself. I wouldn't consider it a rebrand. I think I'm just owning that title. There's this thing about where you're, you're born with taste. But in the beginning, you don't have skill. So, you know, you're five years old and you write a song. It's like, this is pretty good. How do I make it great? Right. Now, how do I make it like what I want it to be? Right. And it's funny. When I moved out here at 18, I had this sound that was totally unique and met this producer. It's like, hey, you got to meet these people and it was like right in the beginning of whatever. Yeah. And then there was this, this big producer had just done some big albums and they're like, I want to work with you. But we got to do music like this. And I was like, okay. Yeah, you're like sure. Yeah. And I'll send them more in leather pants. That's another another conversation. But wait, was that when you were in the band? Yeah, that was, that was before the band that you, you probably saw Glacier hiking. Yeah. Crazy. That was before that band. But yeah, I mean, even that's like, is that, you know, finding yourself as a, as a writer as an artist takes like a lot of trial. And you know, maybe the difference and the grace I get is at the first two, three albums. I did and music videos are hard to find yeah Versus like when you're discovering that to be like watch this human discover who yeah No, I have so many like Things I'm in there because everything's there. Well, print your not whether it's not even that's a crack It just might not even be it just might not be authentic to who you are or it might be ultra authentic No, I'm not really realized. It just wasn't very good. Well, it was good in a way. I was just watching a video That I had edited on I want to say like Like I movie probably in like 2013. No, 2011 To a dance record and because I was thinking about how I'd put this dance record out in 2011 I went to go see the visual that I made in it like was this anyway is it wasn't very good But it was very cute to like look at now and be like this is like literally still on YouTube like it's all there It's all there I feel like I'm like asking this from it like a dad's perspective, but are you? Are you proud of the journey? Yeah, very much so yeah, cuz you will see things like that and then you're like wow look at me now I got like we got a budget now like that's so exciting. Would you have changed anything? I? Maybe would have done things different if I knew better, but I didn't So I couldn't have changed anything, you know, like yeah totally. Yeah, it's kind of a useless like Yeah, I mean like I guess like yeah, like I could have done things different now, but no, because this journey is like I learned from those experiences Where are you out after this album comes out? I don't know probably go on tour next year That's plan you think you'll start cranking on albums at a fast pace again, maybe I don't know I you inspired right now after you've already finished this album is that I'm so busy like promoting it There's a lot of time I do, but it takes a lot of energy and time so when it comes to creating music I really like to be Only creating music like I'm not the type of person who likes to tour and go to the studio or like do promo and go to the studio like I'd rather be like oh, I'm gonna take a month and just be in the studio when do you do I mean it feels like you are Social media conscious like when do you creating that kind of stuff? somewhere in between Like once I've created a good amount of art and then I'm like feeling Good about the direction I'm going in then like maybe I'll kind of come out of my cave. Do you have a personal life? Like my work is my personal life. Yeah, I mean, I have like really close relationship with my family, but like I don't really like date It's pretty great though that you have your your family You guys are all close having gone through all this stuff. That's like that's really healthy. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think I give them a lot of credit for My success in the sense that I've always had this big very solid foundation of people and A place that feels like home and feels safe and so LA has never felt like a scary weird place or the industry has never felt like Too scary or you know overwhelming because I've always had that solid base. Somebody comes up to you now and says Oh, man, I want to be Tana Shea when I grow up. Yeah What's the advice you give them? Just don't stop like you just have to be Won't take no for an answer. You have to continue to release music continue to put yourself out there No matter what the cost Good bad ugly if people receive it. Well if they don't if you make something bad and you look dumb Oh, well, you just keep releasing like you keep putting yourself out there Yeah, I keep going I keep thinking about this thing about the industry rewarding a strong nervous system more than talent It's it's so tough and I think that that is very true like so many people Just stop Putting things out in the world because it's it's it's difficult. I understand why but I think that's that to me is if you continue to Feed the universe and like continue to put your ideas out there like it'll come back to you one way or another Like it's the law of large numbers, you know, yeah, yeah Keep going. What's one word you tell young women who are joining the music industry one word. Yeah It can be a phrase intuition Why because I think you Your intuition is what's gotten you to where you are now your intuition is what's telling you that you must make art or is pushing you in the direction of art and To always follow that even when it's questioned or You feel like it's not as strong of a voice your intuition will always take you to the right place Well, thanks for doing this podcast. Thanks for having me. I Love this podcast. I watch it all the time. Yeah, I'm a big fan of it. That's big man. It's great. I Love it because I feel like people don't get to see these types of conversations enough Yeah, I It's weird. It's weird because you know, you're when you get into doing it You kind of it's hard to watch a lot of other people's podcasts, but I think it's like the opportunity How often you get to sit with somebody and get to tell them how you feel about their career. Yeah, they you like like yeah Yeah, you know like when you're in a session with Ricky or whoever like you don't just sit there and be like hey So where did you start like you don't you kind of jump in at like seconds? Yeah, and I also think like when we talk about the music business There's it. It's just You know people who are in it Understand what it's like to be in it and the people who are outside of it feel like there's like there's this bridge And I think you're like bridging the gap and I think that's really great because People like all of us like in the music business where I don't know. It's just so interesting I was younger than you are now when we met. Yeah, yeah, and you know, it's like I think The way time flies. Yeah, it's just It's just crazy because you're like you what it in this business Like I was saying you just have to keep your head down and keep doing it and crazy shit happens Yeah, yeah, and if you can just weather the storm long enough You know good things happen. Yeah, I agree, you know, and and you look at the things that are negative and you view that it's part of the process and it's not negative It just it is what it is Mm-hmm, and you just have to just keep going and I know it's just so enjoyable To see releasing quality music. Thank you With quality people You know like now you're back in an amazing label system and having a great time and because you have because now you've gained The the agency and control for your own release releases. It's so different. I feel so so different It's got to feel like a huge weight off your shoulders that this is how you're releasing music now. Yeah, it's exciting I'm excited about it. It feels good. Well, I appreciate it I'm excited to have this conversation after the album's out You're gonna take a helicopter and land it on top of this place. You're like, oh, I'm so tired this arena This arena was so tough on me, but I made sure to take my helicopter to here and I appreciate it. Thank you. There you go