Ep. 265: How Remi Wolf Built Her Career: Study the Greats, Take the Gig, Say Yes

Welcome to "And The Redder Is" I am your host Ross Going. Today's rising star makes the fun kind of pop music we all crave. With a tone you can spot a half mile away and a catalog full of colorful chaos. This artist combines lyrics that paint heartbreak and humor and soul and just crazy weird sounds that are completely undeniable. She's collaborated with some of the biggest names in music, but built a world that only belongs to her. And the writer is Rami Wolfe. Yeah. Hi. Hi. Half mile away. I think so. I always say you can't teach tone. Yeah. Yeah. You're born with something. It's hard to find the kind of music that you're supposed, not that you're supposed to say, but where your tone matches the music you're writing. Hmm. That's an interesting take. I mean, I agree. Yeah. I mean, I feel like with tone specifically like vocal tone, I feel like singers grow up emulating different singers for a while and that's kind of how you find your pocket. And I feel like I was emulating when I was younger like a lot of like Marvin Gaye and like Anthony Keedeth and people like that. And then it kind of like turned into what it is now. It's an interesting, the vocal, everything vocal is the most intense thing in my brain because like I studied singing now for, I don't know, 12 years since I was 18, because I went to school at USC for performance, fight on. Yeah, me too. You're a fight on? Yeah. Oh, my God. No, I'm the, I'm the first class that graduated from Thornton. What? It was the music. You want to Thornton for what, what kind of, for vocals? I was a pop music vocal performance major. Was it helpful? The vocal training was very helpful. I think it's the kind of the only reason that I like survive on tour and doing all the vocal acrobatics and just belting I do like if I hadn't learned how to sing properly, I'd be, I'd be out. Okay, so a few things, are you show up to USC as a vocal major and what did you not have going into it that you thought you had? Their whole motto for the program I did is like, we are going to beat you down until you feel like you're nothing and then we're going to build you back up. That was what they said to us on day one. That was like the curriculum was like, we're going to make you feel like shit, beat you to a pulp and then by the end, hopefully you feel a little bit better than you feel now. And all these kids too, it's like 25 kids in my class, like very small program and we all kind of went in being like, we're like big fish, small pond, like we felt good about ourselves and then we were like, oh, we actually suck like really, really bad. I mean, the whole thing with my program there, which is the pop music program. So it's like, it was a relatively new program when I started. I think I was like the fifth class or something. It was all about learning repertoire from like the 50s onwards and we would, every week we'd learn three songs and we'd have to perform, we'd perform every single week. And they, when we would learn these songs, they were like, you cannot take a single liberty. You are going to learn exactly the inflection, exactly the arrangement. Like you cannot veer off of this song and what it is. So that was challenging. Why is that helpful? That was helpful because you learn new things every week. Like I had to learn, you know, exactly what all these Motown artists were doing with their inflections. Like I'd take amazing slow downer, slow the song down by 50% and learn exactly what they were doing, vocally. Like it was, it was a tedious, like do you still do any of that? Fuck now. No, no, not at all. It's like really good homework. It was amazing, amazing homework. It was not all that fun. And also every time you went into class, like it was terrifying because you'd get up on stage, you'd play your song and then our teacher would rip us apart. Like rip us apart. Like if anything was, if anything was like off the track, like if the groove felt not like vertical enough or not like, you know, there was all these words that they use. I remember vertical was like, it's a vertical groove, like I'm envious because they, you know, when I went there was, I was jazz vocals and, you know, classical composition. There wasn't a pop program. Yeah. Because thought that pop was less than, and I was still in the same class as I just remember. And this is not fair to those who play in orchestras. But saying to my music theory teacher that you are in a glorified cover band, like people go to see Mozart and they go to see Bach, they're not going to see you play the violin. And I might be using four chords, but at least I'm trying to do something new. Totally. And I remember this fight, but then, you know, I have like a massive respect for classical musicians and composers, especially composers as a creative, but I wish that I would have had some of that training in a formal way. What was the songwriting like? The songwriting was what was a songwriting like, I did you want to show up to is, were you a songwriter before you went to USC? I was. Yes. I started writing when I was like 14 or 15, but I was always writing with my friend, Chloe, who we grew up together and we kind of became songwriters together, like in her kitchen. Like, we would go home after school and we would just go write songs and we were in a little band. We would perform at coffee shops, we'd go busc on the street and this is in Palo Alto? Yes. Up in the bay. And were you doing in the streets of Palo Alto or are you doing it? We did it. We sometimes. San Francisco. We would do San Francisco. We kind of went all over the Bay Area. I mean, the Bay Area at the time was not really a music forward place at all. There was like no music scene, pretty much. I think that's changing now a little bit up there, but at the time there was nothing. There was no venues. There's nothing near me like in order to go to any sort of concert, I'd have to go to San Francisco. And I barely went to shows because I just, you know, we'd have to take the train. It was a whole thing. I have any money like that. I never went to shows. I'm also I'm so short that going to shows was always difficult because I'm just, I can't see anything. Still to this day, I like hate going to shows. I mean, I love, if I can see, I love it, but if I can't, I'm like, fuck the show. I can't do that. That's motivation just to be on stage right there, just I might as well be on stage because I can't see it. Oh, I have so much more time on stage than I have watching a stage. When you grew up, you were obviously mentioned Motown and in college, did you, and you've mentioned it a couple times, was that the music you grew up on? No, not at all. I grew up, my, so I'm the only musician like in my family. Do your brother's sisters? I have three younger siblings, yes, and none of them, actually my, one of my sisters used to play classical piano, and she was like incredible and it kind of came out of nowhere. We were like, what the fuck? But she gave it up kind of at a younger age, but nobody else is in music at all, like nothing. What were your parents like? They were, what were they like? Yeah, what do they do? What do they do? My mom is a chef. Oh, cool. Yeah, my mom's a chef, so I grew up cooking a lot and kind of watching her cook literally. And my dad is in the stone care industry. The what? Stone care. What is that? Like a marble. Oh. And I like that it's an industry, I like that you said it, because it seems like it's, or it's like my dad is the stone carrier, like it doesn't seem like there's like a long list of people to contact. No, there, there's not. It's a small industry, but you make sealant. Okay. Stone. There you go. Like granite. If you, if you're counter needs to be sealed, she has some stains, like, he'll come in. He'll seal that ship for you. Yeah, that's sick. It'll be nice. I know. I know who to reach out to in the event I need that, that service. Being a chef, we were talking about this kind of, you were, you have a, a chili cook off the Malibu. Chili cook off. 2022. He's a judge. Right here. Oh, ladies, just, um, does, having a mom who's a chef, does that qualify you to be a good food critic? I think so. I think. - I feel like a critic. - Always when you try food. - Unfortunately, yeah, maybe not every time, 'cause sometimes I will, I love some mid, just like, mid food, you know? Like I love a plate of Mexican food, that's just like, mid, and it just feels good to just huff it down. - That feels like a late night, like there's an asterisk for a certain time of day when that's best. - Oh yeah. I mean, the thing with LA, though, with Mexican food is that it's all pretty good. But there's some mid spots that I love, love it. And honestly, normally it's a mid-day thing. If I'm like feeling really depressed, I'll like go on a walk and go get my plate of mid-Mexkin, and I'm like, this is perfect. This is exactly as I wish place, but I don't know that they want that. - I'm not gonna say that. - I don't know that they want that, three stars. - No, but it's a perfect three stars. They're doing it so well. - What is the similarity between chefs and musicians? We were talking about that before, and there's a very close relationship between chefs and musicians. - Yeah, I mean, I think they're both insanely creative jobs with a lot of high intensity. I think they're both pretty high intensity jobs, but maybe people don't realize, but like we're in the trenches. Like I feel like if you work in a kitchen, you're like in the trenches every night. If you're on tour, you're in the trenches every night. Writing songs is, it feels trench-like at times. - Writing songs and writing recipes is probably similar. - Yeah. - It's a lot of trial and error, not everything is delicious. But I think a live music and cooking are really similar where you experience food only once. - Yeah. - You got one shot. - You got one shot to eat it, and then the next time you go, you hope it's similar, or your expectations are about that. And when you're performing shows, you get one shot at experiencing it, and you can try to video it, or you can try seeing food on TV, but that's not tasting it, and it's not here, you know. - It's not seeing it live. Yeah, it's, that's such a good point, actually. Like, yeah, they have one shot at a restaurant to give you something good, and we have one shot to deliver a good show. And I guess the goal is that you're as consistent as possible with both jobs, I guess, you know. - Do you know you could perform before you could write? - They kind of came at the same time, 'cause I was, I started performing, and I started writing kind of simultaneously, and it was like the busking and the, and the playing these little shows at coffee shops and like local restaurants that I, that I was writing with my friend Chloe, and we would go out and sing the songs, and eventually we actually created like a full band. - What was the band called? - Remy Chloe in the Extracts? - Oh nice. - Yeah, an amazing name. - I like that there's a comma in there. - Yep, Remy, comma, Chloe, and the Extracts. Yep, well, you could throw another comma in there too. - Put in Prince, he's vanilla Extracts, and now we have, now we have the chef thinking back. Which, I'm a dad, I'm so sorry. - I'm so sorry for that. - It's okay. But there's this moment when somebody's like, you know, do you turn to Chloe and say, "All right, I have an idea, let's go write a song." Like, how does it turn into this moment? It's just, I kind of remember the first moment I wrote a song, and it was also with a friend, but it's like a weird moment where you're like, "I have an idea, I'm gonna write lyrics." - Oh dear God. All of my first, they were just so bad. - Why, what was your first song? - My first song I wrote was a song called "Carousel." - It's cool, too. - What's it, how does it go? ♪ Pulled around on your carousel ♪ ♪ Trying to stay strong ♪ ♪ You poor little child ♪ ♪ Afraid to run wild ♪ ♪ Avoiding your own eyes ♪ - Oh wow. - It's very weird. I hear where the chord changes, God, that's cool. That's complicated. - It was complicated, we loved our crazy chords. - That's how like one, five, four stuff. That's how you actually go. - No, we put some half diminished in there, I think. There was some, we were getting fancy. 'Cause we were both in guitar lessons, too. And she was like huge Beatles head. Her family was just like all about the Beatles, like everything Beatles. So she kind of grew up playing with her dad. Then I had no idea how to play guitar. And my parents listened to Led Zeppelin and Guns and Roses and AC/DC. So I was like, "Let's rock." And she was like, "Wait, let's, let's folk." Let's, let's, let's, let's folk. So we kind of like combined our influences. I mean, we were 14. So it was just like, we were just, we had no idea what we were doing at all. But she had these Beatles chords going and she started teaching me guitar. The first song I learned was "Baby" by Justin Bieber. And I kind of went from there. And then my songs had the simpler chords, but I still, I don't know. I still got a little weird with it. We love to do open tunings 'cause that was easy at the time. So I don't know. We had some, we had some interesting stuff going on. But that song was like pretty bad. You know? - So what was the first time you recorded a song? - It was that song. How did you get in, did you go into a studio or are you guys just did it on like a garage band or something? - So we met this man at a, at a open mic. His name was Brandon. - Shout out Brandon. - And he was a substitute teacher, but he on the side made music. And he heard us, he heard us at this open mic. And he had made this song called Chinese Food for Christmas, Chinese Food on Christmas. And it was kind of a viral video. - Okay. - And it, should I sing it for you? - Yeah. - Okay. - It goes. ♪ I eat Chinese food on Christmas ♪ ♪ Go to the movie theater too ♪ ♪ 'Cause there's nothing else to do on Christmas ♪ ♪ Da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da ♪ - When you were a Jew. - Yeah, I didn't even know it. I figured where I knew where it was going. - Yeah, yeah. - Yeah, I know this story on Christmas, so yeah, that's it. - Yeah, we all know the Jewish Christmas vibes, but so that was his big song. - Yeah. - And he was like, "I wanna produce your song, Carousel." And we were like, "Okay." And we went to his apartment, somewhere in like Mountain View or something, and we were with, I think, one of our moms. And he recorded the song with us, and it kind of ended up sounding like a 80s porn soundtrack or something. - It went really crazy. The bridge went crazy. Like, it was like crazy since, like, some organ being like, "Raaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!" It was like, it was fire. But yeah, we recorded that one. - Did you post it? Like, can someone find it? - Yeah, for sure, yeah. And I think it's on Spotify. - Did your friends start hearing it? Like, in high school, or did people, and where people, did you start building a fan base? - Yeah, I did. We started building a fan base. - So as much as you think it was bad, it wasn't that bad. - It wasn't all that bad. I think people knew that we were like, the girls that sang in wrote songs. Like, that was like, after a couple years of us doing that, it was kind of like a well-known thing. And we'd like, it was weird though, because I didn't, I wasn't like in the music crowd at school. I didn't do band, I didn't do choir, I didn't do theater, like I didn't do any of that stuff. I was like a, I was a ski racer, I was like a downhill ski racer. So I was kind of like this weird athlete, music combo. I like wasn't in school a lot, because I was skiing all the time. So I was kind of like an independent study kid. But because I was like an athlete, I was kind of chill with everybody at school. Like I wasn't like an outcast, you know what I'm saying? (laughing) But I also like, I wasn't like popping off at school. It was kind of just, I was chilling. Like I wasn't a fine spot. But I wasn't like in deep with the music kids. I wasn't in deep with the athletes really. I was just kind of doing my own thing. And me and Chloe kind of created our own little bubble. And then I found, I went to this after school program, which is kind of really where my music world started to kind of build. And that's where I found my friend, Jared Solomon, who still produces and writes with me to this day. - Wow. - So I met him when I was 15. - 'Cause he's done really well too. He's got, yeah. - He's done well. - Yeah. - So you guys both came up together now, man. - We came up together, yeah. - So easy. - So he ended up, he was in the extracts. He was part of the extracts. - No way. - Yeah, he actually gave them the name, the extracts. That was his idea. Yeah, he added that on. So yeah, we would, and then we would perform with him and our friend Harry and our friend Aaron on drums and bass. - Are they down here too? Are they all trying to do it? - No, Harry is in Copenhagen. I think Aaron's still in the bed. - Good food scene. - Good food scene, yes, very good. I went to this place called Bar Restaurant there, which is like an offshoot of I think Noma, when it still existed. [BLANK_AUDIO] And also, could I even talk about that? I feel like they're all canceled. - Feels like that. It's got a little bit of that vibe. - A little bit of that vibe. But the rest of it was very good. And Joe Jonas got me my reservation. - Nice. - It was insane. Yeah, it was a little bit of a thank you, Joe. I don't know why he did that, but he was. - He's a very nice guy. - He's a nice guy. - He does that kind of thing. - Yeah, and he's tapped in. He's tapped in with the food scene. - Yeah, yeah. - He loves it. - NMPA is our lead sponsor yet again. What is the National Music Publishers Association? What do publishers have to do with songwriters anyway? Well, unlike artists who can be unsigned artists, there is no such thing as an unsigned writer. You can be a self-published, a co-published, or a publisher writer. Publishers only make money if songwriters make money. So NMPA goes and fights for you. They go to Congress, they go and support the community, they fight DSPs to get you paid more. That's what they do. They fight for you, and they fight for this podcast. So thank you for fighting for songwriters NMPA. Thank you for fighting for us, too. - I'm a big food person on tour. I'm always, I'm like-- - It's hard to be a good food person on tour. When you're driving between Omaha and Little Rock, there's not like-- - I mean, you gotta hit an Applebee. That's just an Applebee's. We're going to Applebee's. - What's your order at Applebee's? - Wings. - Safe. - Yeah. - Mots of Realistics. - Safe. - Blue Margarita. - What is it? - Less safe. - Less safe. - But still safe. - That's safe. - Yeah. - But no Margaritas anymore, 'cause I don't drink anymore. - Yeah. - I used to fucking pound those shits down. When did you become sober? - I've been on and off sober ever since I was like 24, but I am like a year and two months sober right now. - Congrats. - Thank you. - Is this like the long haul or are you not sure yet? - It's the long haul. - Yeah. - This is the one. I think it's finally, it's finally sticking. - What was the moment where you're like this? I have to do this. - Lollapalooza of 2025. - Wow. (laughing) - Yeah, that'll do it. - Yeah, it did, well, it was, you know, there was a lot leading up to it, but that was my final hurrah, I think, at Lollapalooza last year. And I, you know, with alcohol, I love this stuff. I love this stuff, it, you know, it's, I'm a person that runs super high anxiety. I run depresso mode. Like I definitely have like battled a lot of just trying to keep my energy calm, especially like going into this job so quickly right after college. And I was like a, I partied hard in college. And I, but like up until college, I was like straight arrow. I didn't do, didn't party, didn't do anything. And I think once I got to school and like drinking was around me and I found it. I was like, whoa, I've never felt good before. And I don't even think I had realized that I had anxiety or anything like that. I should have because it's just a rampant in my family. We're just, just a bunch of crazy people, for sure. Yeah, God bless the fan. But yeah, I think I found alcohol and I was like, oh, this makes me feel like normal. And then once, you know, I got into the music biz and everything started rolling super quickly. I think I relied on, I've relied on it kind of as a medicine just to like quiet the anxiety. Are you a better performer or songwriter since quitting? I think, I think yes. Which was, I mean, the first time I got sober, I was 24 and I went to rehab, it was in COVID. And I wrote my entire first album, sober, dead sober. And I think those songs are, you know, decent. Like I think I was still like finding my voice and stuff at that time. But you definitely have more clarity and you're, if you are, if you're sober and actually really excavating, why? There's so much to write about. And there's so much to put into the songs. And so I, with this album that I just wrote that I'm releasing now, I think the fact that I was sober the entire time and really, really wanted to be sober this time 'cause there are times before I was like, I was sober but I didn't, you know, I was like, ah, I'll probably drink again. But this time I was like, I am sober and I like it and I feel the best I've ever felt or at least like the, I also got my medication. Let me preface it with that. I'm now like medicated, which is something that I was like pushing away for the longest time. I was like, fuck medication, it's gonna like numb me out. But now I'm like on the right meds and I'm feeling like, I still feel my anxiety in my depresso. It's just not as like, allowed, you know. - That's probably the right dosage then. - Yeah. - 'Cause you know, one step further than you, if you don't feel any of it, then you feel nothing. - Then you feel nothing. - You don't feel the other side either. - Yeah, no, exactly. And so I still feel it's just not like the most, it doesn't take me over as much as it used to and I'm not like self-sabotaging as much as I used to but having like a clear mind and being like, oh, I like sobriety, I wanna be sober and I have so much shit I haven't processed for the past like five years. I think that really, you know, guided what I was writing about on this record and I feel like it's the most vulnerable I've ever been and I attribute a lot of that, I think, to me being sober and clear-headed. - You said the last five years, I mean, that it's been a pretty crazy five years. - Yeah. - So like, jumping to when you graduate college, - Mm-hmm. - 'Cause that's really when everything starts to roll pretty quick after that. - Yeah, that's very fast. - You know, the other 25 kids you graduated with, not everybody's killing it in music, you know, everyone's, that's just what it is. And, you know, it's not- - Well, they are. - Sure. - Some of them are, have pivoted. - Well, it's like, you know, it's minor league, minor league baseball, you know, or whatever division one basketball or football, not everybody goes to the pros and they even when they go to the pros, they do different levels and they have to work their way through it. So I think that the assumption that everybody goes to these elite programs would necessarily be successful in the field that they were studying is not realistic, you know? - No, it is not. But I think that people go into it a lot of times into school being like, oh, and now I'm made like it's chill. And it's just so, it's like the furthest thing from the truth. - Who are some of the people that you graduated with that you feel like are, that we should all listen to? - My friend, Jack DeBeo, he is a classmate of mine. He wrote this entire album with me. One of the best writers I know by like a long shot. He's like an incredible, incredible writer and artist. But he doesn't like, he doesn't like the industry very much. So he kind of keeps, he keeps out of it and kind of does his own thing and then I'll be like, Jack, please, please just enter for a second with me. - Come on in. - Come on in, you're welcome. - Yeah, and then he'll be like, okay, I'll enter with you. - Well, Judge Chilly, together. - Yeah, yeah, I made him a lot of Chilly when we were writing this album. They know my Chilly. I think my Chilly would win, man. - Really? - I think it would win. - Now I'm disappointed you didn't bring any. - Oh yeah, fuck, I should've wrote some. - My Chilly's good. - Now you know my address, perfect. The, you know, you graduate and it all happens like you were saying pretty fast. - Yeah. - What's the difference of releasing music while you're in school versus after school? - Well, I didn't release any music in school. - Well, so there you go. - So. - I guess writing music in school versus writing music. Like why didn't you release music in school? - I wasn't baked. I just, and I knew it. I like knew it wasn't right yet. Like I knew what I was doing. I hadn't found the right collaborators. I hadn't found the right songwriting yet. Like I was still kind of working through. - That's a heavy taste. That's some sophisticated taste to know. I mean, again, a lot of your peers and people outside of school, wherever, like you're releasing music as soon as you record it. Most people don't have the wherewithal to say, this, I'm not fully baked yet. Who was telling you you weren't fully baked? You just add that in naturally in you? - Yeah, I think I, I, I, I knew it. I just knew it. I was just like, I'm not, it's not right. Like it's not ready. And I think I wanted to do it. I knew I wanted to do it correctly. And I also had this kind of like blind confidence in myself that when I did do it, I would succeed. So I didn't want to just like throw shit to the wind, you know, and hope. I wanted to like craft something. And it really wasn't until my senior year when Jared came back into my life. He moved down or he was on tour with one of his classmates from from Berkeley. And he texted me and was like, do you still live in LA? Like can I, they had like a week long break in their tour. The routing was not awesome. So they went to a super expensive city like LA to be like, hey, you got one week. So go ahead. Yeah. But at G places day, he stayed at my house. And he slept on the couch and set up a studio in my room with like, you know, the fuck are they called? The little red ones. Oh, what? Oh, we're on the recording. Yeah. We had a focus right. We had a laptop and we had a guitar like that was that's all we had. And we ended up making like six songs that week. And we hadn't seen each other in four years. Like truly, we had not talked and seen each other. And we were really close in high school, but just had not we both just went, you know, opposite sides of the country. And that that week like started everything for for us together. And we kind of that's when that's when we we both knew. And like I knew that week that that was like that's what I'm going to do. Were any of those songs that any of those come out on like the guy was guy part of that like where were any of the songs from the original batch part of that six? Yes. My song sauce. I think we wrote that week. Um, guy we wrote a couple weeks later. Crazy love to to not see somebody for four years and all of a sudden be like, Oh, no, this is my collette. This is my part. My musical person. Yeah. And he had been my musical person prior, but it it. Yeah, it's just, but he's in Berkeley. Yeah, he went to Berkeley and he was, you know, he learned so much about production when he was in Berkeley. He left school early and he ended up going to New York and he did a lot of producing for like these underground hip-hop artists there. And he was using, uh, he was using reason the DAW at the time. So our first, my first two EPs in my first album were all made in reason. Wow. Yeah. So like I, it's really funny. He, he like hated Ableton. He was like, I'm not never going to learn Ableton. Like everything in Ableton sounds the same. Like he had some hot takes about Ableton. Now he loves Ableton. But, uh, but yeah, we used reason, which I think made the songs sound, there was like a different quality to them because reason had all these, you know, built-in reason plugins that were just like honestly super dope. And we would use them. And nobody else was really using reason at the time. So I think it gave us kind of like a little. That's what we used. I mean, it's old. It's an old, old, old dog. So basic. Cut to the guy was like, I'm basic. The guy like created reasons super offended by this conversation. But no, like really said, we love it. It's set up like the whole thing. Yeah, set up the whole thing. And yeah. So we were like using reason. He was, uh, he was at that point. After we had that week, he was like, he went back to New York, but we knew that we had to keep working together. So he started bouncing back and forth. We were both broke. He was, his parents were like helping him. He was in debt. And then eventually he just moved in with me because I was just like, just sleep here. It's fine. So then he lived with me for like three months. And then that's how we, how are you surviving? I mean, leaving school, you know, still a few years between that and making money in music. So, so you, you know, leave school. How do you survive for those for you years? And a lot of people like how do I create music while also having a job? How do you do that? How do you create music while having a job? Yeah. Great question. I was working at a restaurant. I was a server at this place called Ulta Adams over in Culver City or West Adams area. I was living over there like a block from the restaurant. So it'd be like, I'd walk over, start my shift at like four, get out at 12 midnight and then come home and get wasted and we would write music. And then we would wake up in the morning and write music before work. So it was just like music, music, music. And then little break with work. And the good thing about working in the restaurant at the time was I would get fed for free. So all the money I was making, which was not a lot of money, was being put in to the music. And I luckily, like, we released a song guy, I think early 2019. And I was working at the restaurant at the time. Oh, the other thing I was doing was I was going on to Craigslist. And I was finding any gig I could find in the LA area through Craigslist. And I was meeting some wild characters on Craigslist. What's the craziest Craigslist? Craigslist story. Okay, I did, I performed at this club called, I think it was called like lock and key or something like that. It was in Hollywood. And my band at the time was tracks from the songs Jared and I were writing and then my drummer. So it was just like me, tracks in a drummer. And I remember at the specific club, the stage was in the middle. So it was kind of like an in the round situation. And I'm just, it's just drums. And SB 404. And that's how I would trigger the tracks. Literally just hit the pad. And then hit it right after the song is done or else I did. Yeah. Yeah. Actually, we did a couple where I just plugged my laptop in and just press play on iTunes or whatever. Um, still the same problem though, self-depressed. It's the same problem. Oh, yeah. But that one specifically was hilarious. The one at the club because it was put on by this promoter. Darius. Um, still remember his name. Because he was a nice guy. He invited me to the to one oak. Oh, yeah. I think we got paid a hundred bucks. Yeah, me. Yeah. But, but we had a table. Yeah. And we had bottle service for free. So we were like, I was like, wait, this is fucking sick. Like at the time, I was like, this is the best thing. This is the best thing ever. Like I'm playing and I get free booze and I get a hundred bucks. Like that was amazing to me. So that's what I did. I literally was Craigslist warrior. Well, you just showed those that it's okay to have a job and pursue music. Because in LA, maybe more so unfortunate in Nashville, there are every place it has a band and maybe they'll give you a hundred bucks or whatever and out and there, but there might be people in all of the venues. I maybe that's not accurate, but that's my impression of it. And in LA, you can play a show and there's no one there. Oh, yeah. And that happens a lot. But I will say also having been in my 20s in LA, I feel like I survived on getting food and booze for free or nothing, mostly from the fact that I played music above average. Yep. You know, until until those music that people cared about, you know, that was like the goal. And that was peak. Yeah. Like at the time, it was like I was just I was living for the free food free booze. Like if the gig gave me any of that, I was in and I was really just like taking any opportunity I had because I was like I was I was hustling without like even really knowing I was hustling. I was just kind of like doing it. But the other thing about LA is when you do these small little bullshit shows or whatever, you never know who's going to be there because it's LA. Yeah. Like there's just people all around who like, you know, are in the industry or know someone in the industry and a lot of what's like Brandon seeing you play in San Francisco and being like, Hey, I did, you know, Chinese food for Christmas. And I can do it. It's the magnified version of that here where there might be like my my dad runs, you know, exactly. And that's how I mean all of my like earliest connections in the music. Who are some of the people you met from that just happened to see you? I mean, it's how I met my first manager. I think I think he saw me at a so far sounds. Oh, well, something like that. So far sounds is a really cool thing. Explain with so far sounds as to people who don't know. Yeah. So far sounds is essentially a performance series where The, they find essentially like underground artists, people that are talented and want to play live and it's kind of in a stripped back acoustic setting and they'll do, they'll do little shows and they film some of them, sometimes they don't film them, but it's essentially like a soft ticket because people who follow so far sounds and are just, are into that culture will go to the show even if they don't know the artist. So people end up going even if you have no following. And yeah, I ended up doing a bunch of those and one of, I think the first one I did was actually one of the ones that were filmed. So it ended up going on to like YouTube or whatever and that was like the first thing as like Remi Wolf, the artist, I think I did. I don't even know if I had songs out at that point, but I think it was like literally wearing like some tie-dye shit like this and it was just like rock and had no idea what was going on. But it was a, it was really a cool little community and I met a lot of musicians like at the So For Sound shows, I met managers there, I met my first manager at the So For Sound show and I kind of, yeah, I just kind of started building a little community through all these fucking weird shows. I mean, that video was pretty popular. I know you said like it kind of was popular, but it was like legit popular that is so far sounds one, right? Like is that, like isn't that where people started actually finding who you were? Yeah, I don't know how popular. I've never looked at the numbers. It's pretty popular. How many, what, what's the vibe? Really? Holy shit. Okay, this is crazy. Yeah, I guess that is how people found it. And that, that's a song. I think whatever one they filmed was. Ha, ha, yeah. Ha, ha, yeah. I mean, I forget. It's a song I never released or recorded or anything, but I was just rocking on my acoustic guitar. So when is it when do you start releasing guy? That's short, short, after that or right before that? Because it's all, you know, it's kind of a new dog. It's like it's all, but there's all part of it, right? It's all part of it. Yeah. It's in the midst of that era. We finished guy. What are your expectations at this point? You go to, you just, you move down here. You go to a good school. You start, you write songs. You're now like, and this is pretty cool. You start doing these shows, you're people like it. What are your expectations when you release an album with no label at this point? I, I, I, not a single expectation. Like truly, I had, I had no idea like what was going on. I was just joyfully ignorant, like fully. I, I didn't know anything about the industry. I didn't know how anything worked. Do you miss that? Yes. So bad. Like so much. I love, I mean, I like knowing, I like where I'm at now. Like it's fine. But I think there is, there is so much bliss and having truly no responsibilities, except for like a job, like a real job for eating. Yeah. Like it, I, like, not a single, like really, I was just so, there's not a single worry in any amount of attention about, you know, my music or any, any dollar amount at the time was just awesome. Like, and I think you kind of get beaten down after a while in this industry. I mean, it's, and everything is just your perspective to get so, so, um, warped on what is normal and, and how your life needs to operate, you know, um, explain some of that. So it's like, I think people talk about the music industry being tough or, you know, in what ways does it distort your reality? I mean, every way I, I think like, I think part of it is simply growing up and having to become an adult and have a, and wanting to have, you know, a sustainable career and like, what that looks like. And you have to make certain sacrifices in order to, you know, support yourself financially. You know, like, in order to do this job, you can't be out there every day, having the absolute time of your, time of your life. You got to do a bunch of bullshit you don't want to do. Um, that, at least that's what I've experienced. What part of the job do you not want to do? I mean, making like 35,000 decisions every day. I think, I think there's so many little minute things every single day, like approving a poster that is going to a indie record label for on October 9th, you know, and like all of that, I, I like to be really involved. So a lot of this is I put on myself because I like making all these aren't, maybe I don't like it, but I need to make these creative decisions in order to feel connected to my work. Um, and just connected to like the world I'm building. It like, you know, like little minute decisions like that I'm having to make every day. Um, I mean, you're aesthetic in your videos and all of the things that you've put out are so uniquely you that I can't imagine you releasing a video and you're not assuming that it's all driven by you. It is. It's so consistent. Yeah. It'd be impossible to not like, you're an entrepreneur. This is part of being an entrepreneur. It's like, yes, it's all that crap. You could do it. You could do less. I could do fewer things, but I wouldn't feel happy with myself if I, if I did less because I care. I like, I deeply care about my work and I like, I, I mean, I care about my music. That's like the number one thing. And if I could just be in the studio every day and just get to play every day, that's my dream life. Of course. Like, I think what the shitty thing is is like, you're, you start kind of writing these songs, especially early on and they're kind of in like an escape from your reality. And then you go back to your job, but the thing is that like, when you have nothing going on, you can escape reality all the time because you can write songs all the time because you have nothing fucking else to do. But now it's like, I only get to do a little reality play, playhouse escape. I don't know, a couple of weeks, see you. Yeah, right. You know. Well, the weird things like you're playing escape by writing these songs and then you perform them all the time and every time you perform them, you're kind of like reliving that moment. I guess that's the closest way of living in this alternate reality that you created. I know. And I've created it all for myself. Yeah, it's a little bit of like, be careful what you wish for. Yeah. I mean, but I don't want to sound ungrateful because I'm so, I'm so grateful. No, you clearly love it. I love it so much. It's just a lot. It's just a lot. And I'm just constantly overwhelmed. I mean, especially during a, you know, I think releasing a record is one of the hardest things to do. What's the difference about releasing a record? This is what your third major label album. Yes. So, you know, doing a three major label albums. What's the difference between this and that time you released, you know, you're a dog, which, yeah. I mean, there's just, there's more people. There's more voices. And there's more voices now. And I think I, you got to learn to like hone in and shut out the, the chatter and the chaos, which can be really difficult when there's like, you know, 20 different people saying we should do this type of event. We should do a, this should be your tour routing. This should be what your Instagram should look like. And it had like, you have to really, I have to like, hunker down and kind of almost have this like secret like, fuck you, like, fuck you attitude that they don't really know. But I don't know if I should even say this on the phone. But, um, yeah, it's kind of just like, I got a, you have to really start protecting yourself. I think a lot more. And I think, which is, which is a good thing. Um, it's a necessary thing at least. protecting your energy because Because once once you're in the industry once it's it's going there's just people walk in You know, you know what I'm saying people are walking in all the time and you got to be like I got to be like you know is can I have this energy in my life and when there's like pretty heavy wisdom at at this point even because That's what I'm going to get worse or harder. I should say to navigate Yeah, it's like it doesn't go that won't go away No, it's even it's advice for all humans. It's not even just musicians But it's just really prevalent when you're as successful as you are the quantity of people who are Hoping that some of the success falls out of your pocket. Yeah, yeah, and I think like I Think the the pressure of having that many people around you and like caring is Feels really heavy to me because if something doesn't go the way You know, they think that it's gonna go like if the you know album doesn't do as well as they wanted it to it's like Now it's like I'm not only letting Myself down. I'm letting 30 other fucking people down And that that sucks. I don't like that pressure. Do you look at chart success now? Are you concerned about that? Do you have expectations at this point? I really try not to and this is something I battle with constantly in my brain like a big question I've been asking myself recently is like What is the goal like what is like is that even a goal for me is the goal to sell out a tour is the goal to just Be able to make music for the rest of my life no matter how many people are listening to it or not like I've been kind of like I've been going back and forth with myself about like what is what is my definition of success and like what? What is your definition of success? I don't know. I I don't know. I I think that I am right now as I sit here in this chair like This this is success to me like just being able to talk to you and Meeting a new person. I think that is actually a friendly and awesome like you. I think is that's always a great day more I always say that I had a director on a show When I did the ramen in New York this guy Tommy Kale is a legendary director like Hamilton and stuff like that And he said to me goes that he goes oh no my his definition of success which I now I've stolen his his It's managing expectations It's so short, but like yes, you you walk around you know in that environment his job is to direct There's a 150 people working on the show the cast the band the this that everybody Everybody so many people and his job is just managing people's expectations and his own and and it's not to lower your expectations but It's why when somebody has a lot of things going on I'm always like that's fine But your expectations should be that things take longer and if you're going to be all I'm hyper focused on this Then your expectations are that if this doesn't reach whatever fictitious goal you may or may have that and there's no there They're you're gonna struggle if there's no nothing else. And this is this battle of battling Setting your expectations in a way where the process is the goal Which is a part of that say it's a cousin of gratitude You know if I'm going to know that if I'm going to be a good dad I'm going to be a good songer or podcast host publisher record exact Advocate Grammy person like all these things that it's going it means that I can't I can't release I can't write 200 songs a year anymore If I do that the songs they write better be good. Mm-hmm. I can control that Mm-hmm. I just have to slow everything down. And it's just managing expectations is a Comfortable way for me to define success. Yeah, I love that. I mean, it's so because otherwise like selling out a tour You can sell the tour right now. Yeah, and what venue like can you sell out the Hollywood Bowl like? Maybe Can you do a two nights three nights four nights? I don't know, but there's some limit where you're like okay I'm not there yet, but what is the you know can you sell out the Greek can you sell out Wiltern? Can you sell out Ford? Can you sell out L. Ray going backwards, you know? Yeah, I can't believe I did that that fast, but that was amazing You know every venue in Los Angeles. I was surprised myself, but but you know It's just setting the expectation of like okay my my goal right now is to the the thing that you said you love most Is writing and performing those two things you can control. Yeah, maybe not every song is great But you can control your effort. Yes, exactly. Yeah. Yeah, I think That thing that you were saying of of when your whole heart and soul goes into one thing And it becomes your life I Struggle with that because I put so much into this into my music and I like you know you spend so much time Crafting these songs they become part of you. They become like Literally or little children, you know and like one song will take a day and then another song will take weeks to crack and you're like I fucking hate this kid right now, but like it's okay because we're gonna get through it together But you get so involved with these sounds and words and They become like such a Live part of my life like they're living in me um, and I think that's something that I'm trying To manage during this rollout is like Exactly what you said like what are the expectations? What can I let go of? What control can I let go of within? Like the business part of my life like what can I just have other people do like I don't need to Grasp but everything and I think that's I'm really learning about that through this rollout and I think part of it Not to go back to the sobriety thing, but I think it is partially because I am sober and I've never been sober during a rollout before so Having to just raw dog this shit, you know like I'm just raw Dogging it and but doesn't it feel good when you release bottle and you have this video. That's great Yeah, it feels amazing for a day. Oh, yeah The weird thing is this and I had this conversation with someone recently who had a single out where it's like Week three and it hasn't really moved the needle and I mean it's just not every song's gonna do this but Just the idea of lose control taking 39 weeks to get to you know to number one You know That This is all goes back to the process thing like videos good songs great recordings really unique, you know the performance on the record's good the videos good Yeah, and that to have that out is the success and then the response and like this is the gratitude thing it's like Well, you have no control in 15 years when you look back and you're like I'm so glad I did I've released that song in that video because you want You remember today. I will not well. I might remember but you might remember yesterday But you won't remember like how you felt in Relationship to the release that happened a week ago. I know song that's gonna have all yeah, so that you can do it again Yeah, yeah, really because it's your new drug because it's the new drug. Oh fuck me Jesus I hate that. It's a new drug. No, but I yeah, I I was a healthier drug, but it's still a healthier drug, you know Yeah, I don't know bottle. I I I love The good thing And all this is I do love the songs I'm releasing and I'm so proud of them and like and that's and that's amazing Success, man, dude when you're trying out you you were in college and you're like this Just as in me and I can't release it. You didn't care about how many Listen's it has and now you're like, you know your floor is so high that you're like okay So now I'm releasing a song and you know It only has however many millions of streams in one week. You're like that's fucked up if that's not success Because it is so success It's just a I but you know You get war you get war is that because of being signed to a major? I think that's part of it Um, is it because you know what warps An artist of your quality what warps your perception. I think social media is just like the downfall of all of our mental health and our How we feel about ourselves, you know, and I think when When you're in the midst of a rollout you gotta be on your phone it's kind of just phone time. You know what I'm saying? You're just like, you're on your phone because you have to fucking post shit and send things and do all this stuff. And because of that like higher engagement that I'm having with social media, I'm just being bombarded with shit. And it almost at times feels like you're just screaming into a void, hoping that people can hear the faintest of melodies from you. You know, and it's just a weird landscape we're in. And I can't like, I can't lie about it. It's just fucking weird. And it's, there's, I don't even like to say there's oversaturation because it's fucking sick that everybody's making music and putting their stuff on the internet. Like it's great, but there's a lot of music out there. And to cut through the noise is difficult. And it's insane. It's insane. It's got to be real good. Or you got to like pop your pussy. Yeah. I mean, I try to do that all the time when I release a song. Yeah. I've seen you pop your pussy before. I did say, I have a song that they're shooting a music video for. And I said to the, to the artist, I was like, if you need a cameo, I took jazz and tap in high school. Like I can, I can kill this video. Let's go. So do you still have the, the, the skill, the jazz and tap skills? My skills were like, I was, I didn't know if I was going to do theater or music or politics. It was going to be one of those things, which explains a lot of my career now. Yeah. Like I kind of fell into all three of those things. It's so cutelessly. But at the time, I was like, you know, you go to school for one or the other. And if you're going to do theater, you have to know how to dance. Yeah. But I also meant that I had to take tap with fourth graders at 15 years old. 18 probably 17. Oh my god. But I'm like, if I'm going to get into, you know, a real like quality theater school, I got to, I got to do this for change. I took tap for two weeks. That's all you need, man. Yeah. I got my ball change. Yeah. I mean, I was a, you know, at USC, like I had like all my friends, like the theater kids, or I was in Soca Vocals for a little bit. Really? No shit. Yeah. Did you live in the house? No, I was a, I was in, so my story in Soca Vocals was pretty unique where I was a senior. I started a record company at USC. And I already started talking to some labels and it's kind of some stuff. I was like hinting towards things. I was in a band, but I was also only trying to do solo stuff. It was like part of the thing. And I was graduating early. And I was like, I'm going to, I need to be an aquapel group before I leave. And I showed up, stone out of my mind to like the audition. They're like, why are you here? And I'm like, because I can sight read. And I wanted to be an aquapel group. That's what I always thought my college was. And I don't want to lose this thing. So I did it. I did it for one semester, but I ended up on there like Boca thing and ended up like being, you know, I love the competition. You did the competition. That's, I see C.A's. Boca was an album that had like, I think my year, I think my year though had like, it had Sarah Burrell's group, I had John Legend's group, I had like, like that, all these old pelicans. Anyway, when speaking of, uh, not me, when, um, photo ID comes out, it's like, you would have, you know, at this point, it's your second release of the major Dominics on the rise, but so is COVID. So, yeah, we love COVID. She came back. I mean, it either stopped somebody's career or it started somebody's and it like really helped. How did you navigate a time when it killed everybody else? It didn't kill everybody else's group, right? It was really hard. It stunted momentum for most humans who had to now stay at home and work from home and do all this stuff. Why did, why was, why was COVID so good to you? It's such a good question. Um, the, the real answer is I don't know. I, the, I got lucky. Um, my song photo ID, somehow got a traction on, on Chinese TikTok. So whatever the equivalent of TikTok is, I can't say that. Oh, okay. It's all Chinese TikTok or was all Chinese TikTok. It was all Chinese. They had their own TikTok. And I think like people started making TikTok, like anime, kind of like, they would dress up in anime and make these, these dances so that part of the song was like, ooh, there it is. And I don't know why. Because I thought it was in Japanese. People thought that I was speaking Japanese in that song. Um, I don't know why Chinese TikTok. Okay. Whatever. I don't know. They thought I was speaking Japanese. They started making anime videos to it. And then it crossed over somehow into American TikTok, which at the time was Wild West. It was like the new thing. So nobody really knew what they were doing with it or like the power of it. Um, there was this one video of this girl. She was like singing to it. And then like, she had a mic stand in front of her. And then she tripped over it. And like the mic stand looked like it like went straight up her vagina. Can I say that? You could say vagina. Okay. Um, and that was part of it. And then that of me, it works. Yeah. Come on. That video went hyper viral. Yeah, I remember that. Of course. Of course. So crazy. And then it just went fucking insane. And at the time, I had like, I didn't even have TikTok. I didn't know what was going on. And then I downloaded TikTok, whatever made a little video. And then it just went fucking insane from there. I did not crazy that you work all so hard creating content. And then it's some girl who gets hit and then still post it. Post it. It's incredible. It's incredible. You have no, we have no control. Tell me about the day you wrote fun ID. Oh my god. Um, I was in, I was by USC actually at my friend John Curl Kirby's studio that he was in at the time. And he's just like a badass keys player. Um, producer dude. And he's like, he's just fucking awesome. Like such a character. Um, and we had done a session like a week prior for like another artist. We were writing for this guy who I love and still know to this day. His name's John Keke. He's a very talented keys player as well. But we wrote a song for him. The session was cut short for unknown reasons. But John and I like really fucked with each other. And we're like, let's just do a session. And went over to USC area. We wrote this song so fast. I thought it was horrible. Like I really hated it that day. And I was so fast. Yeah, like 30 minutes or something. So annoying. Um, on that so annoying. I mean, like, I hate that story because like nobody writes a song 30 minutes instead of the person who does it. And then they're sitting here and it's like, how do you do that? It's just easy. Is it that he is writing songs? It can be writing songs easy for you. It can be. It can also be like the hardest thing in the world. It depends on the day. Depends on how open you are, I think. Like if you're like that day, I think I literally was just like, I was open to anything. The lyrics are absolutely fucking insane. Like they make no sense. Maybe that's what makes it so great though. It's like, here we are. I'll try to make every lyric make sense. And then you just enjoy yourself. I was just enjoying it. And I was it was like jib. It was like gibberish almost. Like there's no story to that song. It's just like, hooky and. But you know, it's a smart lyric is disco man. Disco man. It's a smart lyric. Thank you. I like just because like, you know, obviously like you. Why do you think it's smart? Because of the twist when I think whenever you can read a title and it's not like, you know, it's like the 70s version would be like, here comes the disco man. I'm like, I don't know. I don't know that's it. But it'd be like some shitty thing of like disco man being like the thing. But like, I don't know where man's gonna land. And I don't know like, I don't know what the thing is going to be. But it twists your your brain when you're like, oh, that's cool. How you land the way you approach the lyric is a twist compared to what the title is. Yeah. Because it because he is wild. Yeah. I just like how you just like it. My favorite line in that song is fiscal plans. Yeah. I like rhyming disco man with fiscal plans. Yeah. That's I like that part. I'm proud of that one. Yeah. And I like that like, yeah. I like the hands the the whole thing works. It's good lyric. Thank you. I wrote that with um, Livy Frank. Oh, she's great. Yeah. And Mary whites and M-faces. Oh nice. Do you know that? These are all pros. They're pros. I mean at that point you're like those those are all like real professional songwriters who you know do you ever feel like you had sort of you know was there a moment where like oh these rooms are different or no because you know you've been writing with a list writers who just weren't famous yet. No that was that was my first session I ever did for myself with professional top liners. That session for disco man. Do you like that? Do you like sharing the top line? At the time it was very uncomfortable for me because I just hadn't been in rooms like that and I didn't really know how to operate. So it was it was challenging for me mentally because I think I had just a lot of social anxiety honestly. I think that's what it was and it was like I hadn't let a lot of people into my writing process prior to literally that day except for like instrumentalists you know where it's like I'm kind of taking care of the melody in the song and then they're writing chords and shit underneath um but I think I was just like overcome with social anxiety at that time which now luckily it's that's yeah that's gone. I may say it all the time I like for people don't know it's like walk into a room of people you don't know sing at them and then ask what they think. Yeah it's such a weird thing. It's so weird. The reality is like I don't know we've never written together but if we went in that room I'd be like oh here and I would just sing it yeah. It'd be so fun and you'd be like okay cool what if I sing it you and you'd sing it me be like oh I see that and Joe would be like oh how about this let me play this instrument like this and you're like okay but in real life you would never just go to a grocery while we might all but you wouldn't go to a normal normal or muggles wouldn't go to a would go to Trader Joe's and just are singing at somebody in line and be like hey I got this idea I'm gonna sing it you'd be like get away from it um yeah that you know I'm allergic to dogs comes out when everyone else is whispering their albums you know and you've got hello hello hello you've got like everybody else is like really COVID sad and you're a song you've got just go man I would this like it's just so much energy yes I think that was part of why it worked during COVID because what I've heard from people fans of mine is that they were able to put on my music and dance in their kitchens at a time when no like there was just none of that going on and it like gave them a feeling of lightness during such a dark time I mean you did a COVID concert where people drove up to you to like I did do that so crazy it was insane like you know today feeling about the curtain a little bit today's the 25th anniversary of September 11th and I was thinking about how um yeah and I and I was thinking about how cold COVID will be a thing that like in another 20 years and you're gonna be explaining to somebody who is like a kid during that you're like no people drove their cars up to see me perform is this like and we want this show played in their radios yeah that's crazy it was insane like proper driving like I don't even think we had like a p-a system it just went straight from stage to the radio it's kind of fire I wish I was in the car you know how crazy is that and then after we did that they're like we're never doing this again why the city of Los Angeles I think it was just such a fucking nightmare and like for COVID specifically I think they're like we can't even dabble did people like when they were applauding did they like flash your brights yes lots of brights flashing house out the car house like cars it was just like performing cars but it was a we thing like I think it worked because people were all like we are doing this together yeah everybody craved that and it was like the closest thing to a party and you were taking like a really dark time and making a party out of it yeah I think that I tried to do that at that at that time success success thank you for that on your list party times who's Liz Liz is one of my best friends oh nice yeah was she so stoked so fucking stoked still is stoked she's so famous that's fun to say to her yeah she's famous she's famous girly anytime I like poster online or anything people are like the Liz like they are they love this they love Liz shout out Liz what's up Liz Liz coming my girl I love you I don't know why I gave her that she needs it she needs it right now she's gonna love that sorry about that also okay the Juno yeah was it named after the movie was it named after my dog who was named after the synth oh cool yeah we've got a couple does yeah you guys yeah come on we love it Juno have your parents and sisters all is it with sisters are you just a younger sister and brother are sisters and brother and parents all supportive and excited about what's going to give a good relationship with them yeah have they enjoyed watching this or are they worried about you I think I think now they're totally fine I mean they honestly at this point could probably give less of a fuck they're kind of just like whatever she's doing her thing they my siblings have all worked for me at one point so they kind of yeah they've they're all kind of it's fun like my brother tm one of my earliest tours and then he helped on a bunch of other tours my my little sister has helped with so many things she helps on music videos she'll help me you know onto her she'll help me clean my house like she'll she's legend yeah that's really cool and she wants to be in the music industry too what does she want to do she wants to work somewhere like in the live space like she loves she wants I think her dream job is to be like logistics planner of a festival which I do not know how the fuck that could be anybody's dream jobs god bless you all totally that's when you realize that people are different do you know I mean like if somebody somebody wants that job and that's their dream job yeah you forget about that like yeah you think your dream job is being in a studio and performing I'm like yeah I relate to that of course that seems dream-ish you know to have somebody it's like I want to do logistics is like festival logistics thousands and thousands of people may like hurting them when you're she wants to do when you're working on an album that has deluxe tracks do you find deluxe tracks like do you know how deluxe tracks to it like when you added deluxe track is that is that a marketing stunt or are you actually releasing songs that you are so excited that didn't make the album that they need to be heard for that record so excited they need to be heard and honestly yeah for every I don't really like releasing songs unless I'm really really amped on them which is why I didn't release a deluxe for my last record because I didn't have any well fair yeah and I was just like fuck this shit I don't why would I do this um but yeah with Juno it was like what were about deluxe songs like Michael and fired and something else um yeah I like those songs I like those songs I wanted to release them you featured on a lot of people's albums and songs at this point or like or they featured on you like you have some great relationships like like real taste makers and really quality people yeah it's kind of fun because going back to the 70s I'll we can get rid of that performance yeah if you get it there was an era where duets were a thing and now it's featuring or featuring whatever one or the other do you enjoy doing duets like is working with Paramore you know is working with you know Zad all these people like is it do you enjoy the the collaboration of that so much it's my favorite part really yes I love I love people I like I love people and I love good people like good-hearted people and obviously talented people and if you get a good-hearted talented person I'm just so fucking game like I love it I love meeting I love meeting people and Haley Williams is one of the best humans I've ever met my life she is just she's like prime I love her I love singing with her because we're both like belters and I love singing with another belt queen um I wish that there was more of that I know I mean this goes back to the covid thing invite there's it became cool to and not belt because no one was performing on stage. You know, like we have probably friends in common who are incredible singers that haven't gotten their shot and part of it was 'cause for a while it became this thing. I'm like, you're listening to music on your headphones. No one wants to be yelled at right now and everybody's gonna perform on stage. Everyone's zanxed out 'cause they're depressed and so everyone's performing like, that was like the rise of the ASMR too. Oh yeah, it was like everything was this opposite. And let me put you in a little cocoon of just like cold. I bet if you went to a junior high or high school now that there are a number of people who are in choir who are whispering like this. Yeah, I kind of love it though. That'd be cool. I mean, cool sound, like full choir of like whispering. Yeah, that would actually be pretty cool. Let's just say that I got solos a lot not just because I didn't know how to blend but my tone wouldn't allow me to blend. Oh, you weren't a blender either. I got bullied. I got bullied for not being able to blend. By your teachers? No, by my classmates. In college. He look who's laughing now. I know, well, they're doing fine too. But they've fully bullied for it. And I always got the solos but I don't think it was, I mean, I'm a pretty good singer but I really genuinely think it's because like, if we put them in, we're gonna hear them anyway. So you know, as well. Intense nasal tone of cut. I love it though. Put a thousand people up on stage and they'll still cut through. Perfect. Cinderella has more streams and there are people in California. That's cool. Probably probably like California and maybe even like Texas combined. And so a lot of people. Okay, wait, really? That's like 75 million drinks. Okay. That's tight. That's a lot of success. Success. Thank you. I need you more in my life. Can you just be my success button when I'm feeling stressed? Bap, bap, bap, bap, bap. Paro. Successful. Good job. Good job. I'm gonna, you're gonna get a bunch of voice notes after this. You know that. I live from now on every time I see it. Every time I see something that you do that you're not giving yourself credit for. You're gonna just get it. I'm not gonna say anything. It's just gonna be, bap, bap, bap, bap, bap. And you'll know. Oh no. Thank you. I need that. We'll cheer later on my shoulder. What's the difference between now that you're on, you know, that, that's album to, well, you admit, kind of like mixed tapes and live albums and all kinds of stuff. You've been nonstop. You've been nonstop. You've been nonstop. I was going. Yeah. Big ideas is a great album. Do you feel like, um, it's weird because it's like, it's a sophomore album, but I feel like we're still like on, in some ways, I feel like we're all in this umbrella. The debut album. Does that make sense? Hmm. There's a part of me that feels like, well, 'cause I never stopped. Maybe that's why. Yeah. It's like a nonstop, because there's been a lot of music. Do you feel like there's, there's that any artist should take breaks? Or do you feel like that's not, do I feel like artists should take breaks? Yeah. Yes. Absolutely. I, I, I have taken my biggest break for the past year. Because my last show was, um, all things go of last year in Toronto and, and that was in September. So I, this is the longest time I've had off the road, ever in my, obsessed, but I'm ready. I'm, I'm finally ready. I'm ready to go. I'm ready. That's why the break is good. That's why you need it, because I, I, I was hating, I was hating my life. I was, I was, I was, I was, I was hating my life, I was just burnt out. And I was like, I need to press pause and I just need like, focus on rejuvenating my soul. Cause it really was like, it was when you say I was just going, I was going. I mean, it's just nonstop releases for, nonstop, and nonstop touring, since COVID, for five, three years. For five straight years. Yeah. It was intense. It's weird when you think that your entire schooling was less than that. You know, like, when you think of like, no, wow, that's crazy. It's a lot. It's a lot. Do you have any personal life right now, or are you, are you like able to, to have a personal life? Yeah. I think so. I, I hang out with friends. That's cool. That's a win. That's a win. Yeah. I love, I love my friends. I have a really like, small group of my like, closest friends. And word, it's just, it's just us. And this kind of weird, but you don't have to answer this, but is everyone sober in that? A lot of us are. Is that a generational thing or is that this group thing? I think a little bit of both. I'm definitely an addict. And the other people that are sober within the group are also definitely addicts. So maybe it's, I think it's just an addict thing, maybe. I don't know. I mean, I've said, even on this podcast that, that like, we've done somewhere between 250 and 300 of interviews over 10 years. And I think that a third of them are addicts, a third of them are sober and a third of them are liars. Yeah. Totally. You know, it's like, even if you're, if somebody, if their addiction is work or is OCD or it's something, very few people succeed in this space without some sort of compulsive need to be heard, you know, create, it's this ego mesh with anxiety, it's, and every single person you've seen has some version of that somewhere underneath something to prove that keeps this compulsive. I'm going to release music for five years straight. I'm going to write music two sessions a day, three sessions a day for 20 years. I'm going to do, you know, I'm going to sign this person travel all over the world to go and sign this person and, and represent this thing and all, like, it's not self compulsive behavior. We're fucking crazy. We're all crazy. But it's amazing. It's easier once you, once you respect the fact that, that you're amongst other people who are like that. And then, you know, and then it's like, it's okay to, and that's, that's why I love, that's why I love a writing session at this, at this time in my life, because it's normally just like a bunch of people who are exactly the same as me. At least spiritually, we're all like, we can, I think I'm comfortable enough in myself now, and the people I'm working with now are comfortable enough in themselves. Maybe it's just an age thing, but we're all like, we're all crazy, and it's great. And let's just rock. Let's just have fucking fun, and that I feel, that's how I feel about writing now. It's just like the, so fun, because you're just with people who are equally as weird and fucked up as you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. People who also just sing at you and ask what they think. Yeah. What's, uh, what's the best time I've ever written? I've ever written. I think it's, for me, I think it's the song that's on my next record. It's called I Won't Cry. It's my favorite song I've ever written. How does it go? If it's what you need, I won't buy it, I won't sting, and if it's what you want, I won't cry, I won't cry at all, but if you change your mind, you can spend me like a record babe. Should I keep going? Okay. Oh, I got some mucus in here today. Pull me from the shelf and dust me off, shower me, selfish love, play me like you want me back around again. It's beautiful. It's a pretty song. You know, it's really nice about what's cool. It's interesting about this album so far. I mean, I haven't heard all of the songs just, but is that it's a different temp, you know, it's a different tempo than we were two albums ago, like as for somebody who's as colorful as you are right now, and as somebody who has, you know, this uptempo records during COVID. It's like, now everyone's got uptempo records and you're like, okay, here's a bit of emotion in this. Is that by design? I think it's by coincidence and design at the same time. You know how you just get sick of yourself a little bit? I think I was, when I started writing this album, I was just like sick of, I was sick of the uptempo shit. I was sick of hearing myself do that, and I really, I wanted to challenge myself. Like I really wanted to, I wrote like 130 songs for this album or something. So I was like, I was in, I was trying to find something new and 130 songs. It's so strange. When you're a writer and you're writing with these artists who say they have 130 songs for this album, it's frightening walking in that room because you got to be in that top 10% in order to make this album. just still going on winning another. another lottery ticket. - Oh, I didn't even think about that. - Well, but I mean, you don't have to. That's not your purpose right now. Also, by the way, the outside register, I'm writing 130 songs to get the 10 that doesn't always have to be on the same artist. And the ratio is probably about the same. - Yeah. - It's like whatever your best versions of these songs are, - Yeah. - What happens to the other 120 songs? - Well, someone or garbage, you know, as some songs just fuckin' suck. And you're just like, all right, well, that was trash. Fun, but trash. Some of them are, some of them I love. Maybe we'll go on a deluxe. Maybe we'll never see the light of day. Maybe we'll-- - Do you want pitch songs? Outside? - Such a good question. I'm trying to get into it. I did a session yesterday. That was a pitch session. - Yeah. - And I never do shit like that. But it's so fun. Yeah, it was so fun for the BTS. - I don't know. - Yeah. - I don't know who they are. - Yeah, I-- - They're a good band. - They're a good band. And the fun thing was that I've only heard two of their songs before walking into the session yesterday. And I loved that. Because then you're just going in, I don't know how pitch really works. I mean, I do know how it works, but I just-- - It's like that. - Yeah. - You kind of go in and you write a song for BTS and it ends up with Britney Spears or something. - Yeah. - Wait, what? How did that happen? - How did that happen? - It's 'cause they were looking for something that-- You go in and if it inspires a song, that's cool. - Yeah. - And so if they cut it, that's awesome too, like a good job, Bullseye. But if they don't, that's fine too. 'Cause there's, you just want to, what's good about aiming for the biggest boy band in the world is that you recognize that they're going to get 10,000 songs. So the level of this song has to be of the quality of, let's see, it was on this last song, "Tetter, Diplo," whatever. It's going to have to be that level. So if it's not, it's not going to make it. - Yeah, but if you write of that quality, somebody wants that quality. So I don't mind aiming for, I always tell, like just aim for Rihanna, aim for Rihanna 10 years ago, aim for Rihanna 20 years ago, whatever it is. - Totally. - And it'll be slightly weird and probably kind of R&B-ish. And some, you know, there's a thousand artists that will cut that song. - Totally. If it's good, if it's fucking good. - Yeah, yeah. All right, so I just want to know what song on the album, what I listened to if I was going out with friends. - Wine drunk. - And what song would I listen to if I were just walking through LA? - Walking on sunset. - Walking on sunset. - That's specific. - Ooh, um. Jamie? - And on a late night drive to Vegas. - To Vegas. - I gotta think of what. - Oh, late night. Moon's so high. - Oh, that's perfect. On Sunday morning, what am I listening to? - Sunday morning. - What the fuck songs are on this at Sunday morning? - I don't know, bottled. - No, not bottled. - Sunday morning. - That's 'cause of Saturday night. That's why I'm listening on Sunday morning. - Yeah, that's too bottled now. - Well, what songs are on my album? I can't think. - For Rose Wine Drone. - Oh. - Oh, champagne, that's like a little pick me up on a Sunday morning. - Twiggy's fun where it's like, I think. Yeah, it just goes back to the tempo thing. - Yeah, I mean, if you're in your feels and you're really heartbroken on a Sunday, then listen to Twiggy. - Going to the beach? - If you're going to the beach. - Bottle. - Is Younger Remy proud of this, Remy? - I think it's very proud of her. Yes, I don't think. Younger Remy was so dumb. And I think I've smartened up a little bit. And I think I still have things I need to work on. But I'm like, I think I'm the happiest I've been in my life. Are you proud of Younger Remy? - Yeah, totally. She was really struggle in there for a while but she managed to do a lot and to really put herself out there. And I'm proud of that. - Well, thank you for doing this podcast. - Thank you for having me. - Fellow Trojan. - Sight on. - Bite on. - Sight on. - I look forward to trying the chili. - I'll make it for you. - You know, this is the thing. It's so fun to watch somebody navigate this business that everyone complains about constantly. And as much as it may seem like a struggle, you're doing it quite elegantly. - Thank you. - That's nice. - I think you should be, I wasn't friends with the younger Remy. This is the Remy I'm meeting, but I'm proud of you. - Thank you, I'm proud of you too. - Thanks. - Oh, thanks. - You seem healthy and well. - Doing all right. - You're glowing. Your skin is glowing, actually. - That might be from just, maybe it's from lack of sleep and running around with children. I don't know what it is. - Oh. - My children, by the way. Just to be specific. - Oh, yeah, you're a children, yeah. - Oh, yeah. - It's got weird. - Thank you for firefighting. - No, awesome. Thanks so much for doing it. - Thank you. This was very fun. (singing) [BLANK_AUDIO]