Ep. 264: How Aaron Dessner Became an Industry Favorite and the 3AM Text That Became 'folklore'

Welcome to And The Writer Is, I am your host Ross Golan. Today's future producer of the year nominee is arguably the most influential musician in the music industry today. He's a next level songwriter working with the next next level songwriters. He's a legendary collaborator of a bunch of artists that are so big you don't have to say their last names. He's not interested in trends, trends are interested in him. That doesn't make any sense but it sounds dope. Anyway we are live in Brooklyn, New York at National Sawdust and the writer is Aaron Destin. Tell us some of the biggest songs you've been a part of. Well okay the biggest songs I guess Cardigan, Taylor Swift's Cardigan and Gracie Abrams' I Love You I'm Sorry and Taylor's Willow and yeah Noah's Porch Light. I'm saying first names. Yeah but that's that's the thing like okay let's read a list of some of the people we've worked with only in the last you know eight to ten months. Gracie Abrams, Brandi Carlile, Mumford and Sons, Kevin Morby, Florence and the Machine, Sam Barber, Noah Kahn, Suki Waterhouse. These are full albums let alone you know Ed Sheeran and Bon Iver and Taylor Swift and Taylor Swift and Taylor Swift and all the other albums we've done. When when you do eight albums in a year do you have time to write more than you need? Like do you do you write 12 songs for a 12-song album? Good question I think it depends so like in in the case of Taylor she she tends to release most songs that she writes or there it's kind of like there aren't that many that we have written that haven't seen the light of day but in Ed Sheeran's case he's sometimes we one day we wrote nine songs and not not all of them were good so you know um but I I tend to make music just to make it you know so like I'll just be tinkering I've done this since I was a kid just like kind of sketching I call it um with no real intentions I make lots of music some of which I have never done anything with and so I kind of forget about it and it's just there um so I think I tend to just be productive for the sake of it but I I prefer when you make stuff and it sees the light of day because I don't like that feeling of like you know you know you love something and it just gets hidden away on a hard drive somewhere and nobody ever hears it but do you work 23 hours a day um no I don't I used to I used to like hide out in music um all the time and I feel like I don't anymore I've learned that you can't like after a few days you sort of hit a wall you know um and it doesn't make sense to work beyond like like full and a little bit woozy and I don't know but the Mumford guys were at Long Pun and they are still used to the when they're in the studio they want to stay up till 4 a.m and I'd be like checking out at nine or something it was this moment of like what are you guys gonna do till four and they would they would keep going but yeah it's weird when you have to listen back to something and you just woke up from the night before you don't have perspective it's hard to get perspective in literally no time I mean to do 10 albums in a year and have anything else how do you have I mean you have children how do you do it all that's a yeah well so I have three kids and um they're 14 11 and seven and I think the beauty of living in very close proximity to studios I have my house is I live on a in the Hudson Valley on an old farm and there's like a house and then 100 yards away is Long Pun the studio and that makes it really easy to kind of like work life coexistence and um I tend to be fast so the studio is like kind of it's not really like it's open just a big open room and it's fast to do things so sometimes like Gracie and I would make a few songs a day sometimes you know and so when they stack up and you and you can almost produce them fully in a couple hours sometimes you know so that happens and then there's other times where it's a lot of times on the record it's like one or two songs take 95 of the time just because they're these weird weird riddles well I mean you do albums sort of the old-fashioned way it seems where you record the songs and then the label picks the single I don't know if that's accurate but when you're writing that fast you have any perspective enough to say hey this song's special um yeah the single I mean it's interesting because that part of it as I come from a place of indie like a for the national and just having come up from making songs with my friends to play on tour like as a rock band the way that the single world functions and the commerciality of things like I don't sometimes I'm not the best judge but I have my favorites or I have my feeling as to like oh my god people are gonna fall asleep with that or they're gonna like die to hear this um and I think like I Love You I'm Sorry wasn't a single um from Gracie's last record and it kind of was interesting to see what it did on its own you know or like our band we we were never good at choosing the songs that are actually the ones that are more popular you know but then in other cases it's obvious like well the one that this this song has tempo and it should be it should be the single um but yeah I tend to be more agnostic where I just really want to like make music and not be super critical or super um hit driven you know like not be focused on that that's one thing that I think streaming has helped is democratizing the single selection you know and a label that's more patient and is willing to not look at New Music Friday numbers and assume that that's the trajectory of the album and is willing to say okay well let's just wait and see and oh this one's where let's put some resources here and you know it seems like the patient approach works it I feel like for I feel like that the the situations I've been in where labels trusted or had a longer view of where someone could get to that they've been rewarded for that. But it's hard because it's like when you have instant feedback of like, well, it streamed that yesterday and it's stable, but what if they did this and it'll rise and everyone is obvious. Like some people are just really focused on charts, but it doesn't allow for the mystery of like how people are going to gravitate to this, the ugly ducklings, you know, that might be the most cherished song on a record or somewhere. And I'm always kind of like secretly rooting for the weird mix meter song that's going to surprise everybody or just something that's kind of not designed to be the hit. I mean, that's our favorite part of your band, you know, is that the non-hits. Yeah. Well, I mean, just like if it's, it's music and songs and it's, you know, it's not one or the other, but there's a lot of musicality in it. But let's say hypothetically, there's a pop star at your studio who needs a single and they only have a certain amount of time. How do you address an artist who needs a single now? Well, I've learned, I feel like I learned over the last several years, I learned because sometimes you have to function in that way. I've been in situations where it's like everything, every idea I had wasn't clicking for someone or they weren't responding. And they'll be like, well, what if you like to start a beat? I'm like, oh, like what kind of beat, you know, you get better at sort of being spontaneous in that way and thinking in terms of how something can be designed. And it is fine. It's like a fun game. I just tend, I tend to prefer when there's like a musical thread that has appeared that I'm like, that's pulling me along or that I have something in my hands that's like telling me what to do as opposed to like trying to design something for success, I guess. This is abstract, but it's kind of how I think. But I have, I mean, definitely been in enough situations now where you're under pressure and you have to somehow deliver that to that person that's looking for something. Something specific. And so usually I think about tempo and about the structure in a way that's more just focused on getting to the hook, you know, and like, and also setting up in a way that's really attractive and like pulls you in. But it's again, it's like not, I feel like I'm more of a collaborator and less of a producer. in that sense where I prefer just to be a musician or a songwriter and not really focused on that. It's not my favorite thing to do, basically. The artists that you work with are each coming at you from a different musical perspective. Are you studying their music and like-minded musicians before you go in the room with them? Or do you just go in and feel who you are every time? I generally try not to fill the space. I feel like I just, again, having learned over time, I feel like it's more interesting if you actually just show up and sit down and not have some, I think a lot of producers, at least that I've been around, are more catchy, big ideas and creative direction, which is important. But for me, I think I come, I don't know if I'm going to be able to do that. I don't know if I'm going to be able to do that. I've found that it's more interesting for me if I just inhabit the space. And I'm lucky to have this space that I upstate that feels very welcoming and very, there's a lot of light and just, it's like an instrument itself. And so it tends to be an interesting place just to have a conversation. And it's very musical. There's just instruments everywhere and it sounds good and things start happening. And like the simplest, idea can turn into this giant hit or something, you know, it happens. So like, I feel like that's, it's better just to see, not get in the way of like, whatever might be in the chemistry between me and someone who's just arrived by like sitting down and having too many ideas or talking too much or, you know, it's like getting to know them. But to answer your question about if I listen, I do like, I feel like I tend not to work with someone if I'm not already a fan. Or like I've definitely like get lost in their music. And usually most things I've worked on, I was already kind of like absorbing, you know, in some way. - Long Pond is your studio, you know, it feels like a bit like where Rick Rubin's Shangri-La is, it's this idea that you go there and it's an oasis away from the big city. And, you know, there's something magical about all studios for music dorks. And, you know, but here it's not in the city. What is it about a two hour drive away, you know, that makes Long Pond special, that's different than, you know, the big studios that are in Manhattan? - I mean, I think it's that the way it's, first of all, the design of where it sits in the land, it was very, there was an old horse, a barn on this property, which is kind of, it's an old, it's like the corridor of the Hudson Valley is where like the Dutch settled these towns. And so there's lots of like old farms that sit along the Hudson River and it's up on a ridge above the Hudson River. It's just this old kind of collection of 18th and early 19th century houses on this road. And one of them I bought 13 or 14 years ago. When my daughter Ingrid was three, because it was like, I grew up more in the countryside. I was just thinking I got to get out of Brooklyn and moved up there eventually full-time. And there was an old, there was this old farmhouse and there was like a whole small horse barn there and a pond, a natural pond that was long and thin. And there was a, like another dad at the school, this Waldorf school, Erland. Newman is his name. And he's like, he's like a master carpenter and like kind of self-taught architect. And he just worked with me to imagine what could be there. And so, and we took down the horse barn and a bunch of amazing people built this studio. And at the time I was like, what am I doing? This is, I've never spent this much money. And like, I asked a friend, I was like, 'cause it was really for the National. I was like, this is where the National is gonna make records. And it was 2014 or 15. And my friend, Jesse is his name, just said like, he's like, you never make a mistake investing in your creativity. It'll be, you know, write songs, you know, it'll be great. So we did it. And the National made "Sleep Well Beast" there. And it was the first thing that happened in that studio was that record, which was really important for us. And like we all, like there instantly, there was this magic in the space, even beyond just like, a nice recording studio. It felt, and I think it had a lot to do with the land and how it was positioned and that there's water that's always moving. And like, no matter where you look, it doesn't feel contrived. But like, if you look at this window, that way you see grass and this way you see water and that way you see trees and it just feels, and there's no control room. It's just light and airy. And there's actually an oxygen circulator. 'Cause a big, my friend studied studios and like they're, if you don't have enough oxygen, like fresh air coming in, your brain just is less productive. So there's this circulating thing that's bringing oxygen in. And it's just been a, it feels like an instrument to me. So like I playing music in there, I just, things happen. And I think for a lot of people who come, who've been in a million studios, not saying it's like the best studio, 'cause it's not like there's things it's not good for, but it's, there's something about like, a lot of people come there and they're, they breathe out. They're just like, I think so many times it's happened. You know, not to say that's for everybody, but it just feels like it catches a lot of people, you know? - Yeah, when we built this studio that we do the podcast out of normally, it was same sort of time, the oldest was turning three. When I was building it, I was like, okay, what are the things that you need to make a studio important? And everyone said, natural light, good coffee. And nobody said a neat preamp. No one said like, you need, you know, nobody cares about any of the, they all have the same instruments, give or take, you know, some of them are, you know, more magical than others, but they all have guitars, pianos, all this stuff, but it's light, light, light. So, you know, that's amazing. Well, I mean, people who produce for their own, their own bands, they get to learn on the job a bit. And you got to go through this process of, you know, producing for your band before you became, you know, the guitarist of an indie band, albeit a very big indie band, becomes, you know, pop's biggest producer, is a wild journey. So how does this journey start? - I mean, I think it starts, I have a twin brother, and we were born in Cincinnati in the mid '70s, and just did everything, like shared a room until we were 18. Bryce Dessner is his name, and my dad was a drummer, and we found his drums in the furnace closet, and pulled them out, and like had them out, and he came home from work, 'cause he had given it up when he was maybe 30, but he was like a really excellent jazz drummer in the '60s, and the band, he grew up in Brooklyn. And had played like serious music, and studied, and he kind of just sat down. He was like, "Okay." He never told us about it, and we were maybe six or seven, just sat down and just like played old style grip, and just incredible rudiments, and just blew our minds. And so I just started playing the drums immediately. And my brother at that point started playing flute, and got interested in classical guitar, and we just started, and I think as twins we were naturally, competitive, and in the same room. And so we just, so he picked up the guitar, so then I would like, we sold some, we pawned some baseball cards and got a bass, and we were just like constantly looking at each other, and got very dexterous very quickly. And like, let me be at school, just be like, like playing with our, playing riffs and stuff, like in air guitar all the time. And it was the same, it was kind of just the same thing with everything we did, like bouncing off, of each other and sort of feeding on each other's breakthroughs. And I don't know if it was the twin thing or what it was, but I kind of went more towards songwriting and like playing, just kind of playing, like almost like watching him play classical guitar and then imitating him, but I was just writing something new. So I just started, I became like this generative sort of musician where I was just always like making stuff up from an early age. Was there a point, a day you remember when you and your brother diverged on your musical directions? I was a little bit, yeah, just more pulled in, in an emotional direction musically. And he was like, like really into the maze of music, and still is in this, and he's also emotional, but it's like, he's really into the dense, like labyrinth of the most complex thing you can imagine. and then he achieves it, which is amazing. And I also, it still feeds back on me in weird ways. You know, the band comes out of your time in New York and the people you were meeting while you were at Columbia. Tell me about the, what is the beginning of The National? My brother and I and Brian Debenhorff, we were classmates in middle school and played on the middle school basketball team in Cincinnati, Ohio together. Brian is 6'6", and he was the center. And we were like, I was the point guard, Bryce was the shooting guard. We had a special play where like Brian would post up at the free throw line and we'd get him the ball and he had like a great shot. And that was our first interaction with Brian, but he was already at that time this incredible drummer. And we kind of got like, there was like a match made where we were going to get together and play. And it kind of was like, he was a year old, and it was our first real hangout. It was like getting together in our basement and playing. We played Grateful Dead songs for like eight hours or something. And then we just had a series of bands. And later, all throughout high school and then in college also, we had another band. And then Scott Debenhorff, Brian's older brother, was best friends with Matt Berninger and they went to design school to be graphic designers at the University of Cincinnati. And they were like, guided by voices and half-can wigs and pavement devotees and like had a band called Nancy. And then at some point there was this melding of those two, like our little threesome and their twosome into forming the National in the late 90s in Brooklyn, actually. So it was after we graduated from college. And yeah, it was kind of like brothers, big, big set up. Brothers getting together. What was the first song you wrote? I think it was a song called Bells Are Ringing. I probably was like stealing the ring them bells or something, but it's Bells Are Ringing. How does it go? I can't remember the words. I do remember how it goes. Like it was, it's gonna, it was just like. It was just that, I think. Just like a, it doesn't sound that different to what I do now. It's funny how that works, though. It's like your identity is, you know, we're always chasing where we really first came from before we start overthinking. So that checks out. Getting signed, you guys didn't sign to, you know, RCA or to Columbia or, you know, you signed. You know, to 4AD and it's, you know, it's an indie label, it's an indie label process. How do you get from, there's the five of us, we're now a band, to getting a record deal? I feel like we faked it. So it was like, basically, at first, no, but we made it, we formed the band. And Matt, the singer, he was, we all had jobs, like pretty. Serious jobs that we were paying our rent from, mostly in new media, like design stuff. This is 99, 98, 99. And when the first shows were literally at office parties for one, someone's company. But there were a few, like, amazing people at those office parties that became these, like, super fans and, like, supporters. And we, and, like, helped us, like, bring people to the shows. Then we finally got a show at Mercury Lounge and 30 people were there. And then we got another one and there were 80. And eventually it was, like, 100, you know, and it started to be, like, a few people you didn't recognize. But the big thing was, like, one of those fans, friends, was French. Hélène Germain was her name, is her name. And she helped us get a show. And then we got a show in Paris on this boat called La Guinguette Pirate, like, in the Seine. Sounds outlandish, but it's true. And then we sent our music to France Inter, to Bernard Lenoir, who was this DJ who had this thing called the Black Sessions. That were, he was, like, a legendary, kind of, like, old school, cool, punk, indie DJ. And he started playing. Playing a song of our first little record that we had made. And then there was an article in the paper. And our show was sold out at La Guinguette Pirate. And we were, like, holy shit. Like, what just happened? And so it was in France that the National kind of, like, had a moment. And then Roger Truss from Beggar's Banquet, which the, like, parent company of 4AD and Rough Trade and XL and all that, came over. This all, I'm condensing a few years into a little story. But it basically came. It came over and saw us play in Paris. And he loved it and loved the music. But he probably thought we were much bigger than we actually were. Because it was only in Paris that we had that kind of audience. That's called marketing. Yeah. That works. Yeah. You guys recorded the, you know, the self-titled album. And then it's, like, sonically it sounds really live. Sounds really indie. You know. Sad songs for Dirty. Dirty Lovers. Alligator. These are all, like, they're all just, you can hear, like, the gears turning. Yeah. But something happens around Boxer that is obviously just feels like that's when everyone in the country knows who you are. I'm sure people obviously knew who you were before that. But what is it? Here. Watch this, guys. This is because I'm learning. We just launched. We just launched our Patreon page today. Or yesterday. And a Patreon fan question from Austin over here. I'll paraphrase it. But he basically said, when was the moment when you realized the thing that you got, that the National had been doing as an indie band became commercial? I mean, it would have been on Alligator. I think Alligator, the record before Boxer, we started to have experiences where we were still, we were still, like, feeling the humiliation of, like, playing shows where no one's there or playing. We did a tour with Clap Your Hands Say Yeah, which was, like, an early internet band and a great band. But, like, they were the opener and they suddenly had more fans than we did. And, like, it was this awkward moment. That was still happening on Alligator. But towards the end of Alligator, we would, I remember we played in Michigan and Grand Rapids, I think. And there were 500 people there. Wow. And we were, like. And we didn't know a soul. And it felt like, okay, so these 500 people are here because they have the record and they love it. And then when Boxer came out, there was this exponential thing that happened, almost like you could feel it from almost from the release day. It was like people the whole time since Alligator had, in the years since Alligator had come out, they had just been, like, multiplying or something. And then you could feel it when Boxer came. And there were. And Boxer was this very cohesive record that just really landed. And then, yeah, a lot of things happened to us that were super positive that helped during that time. But, yeah, that's when it, like, you could feel. And then it, like, High Violet, the same thing happened. And Trouble Will Find Me, the same thing. And it just, it kind of grew, you know. It's weird because manufactured virality is something all the labels. try to achieve. But in reality, it's this Jada Saquad thing. And, you know, that era is such slow virality because you still. The way someone would share it is by burning a CD and handing it to someone. And when you're on tour in 2003, you're maybe using MapQuest and a printout while you're looking at an almanac in the front seat. You know. And you're, like, fighting over, like, no, that was the exit. And you're, like, it's exhausting. And then to have 500 people show up, you're, like, we did it. It's, like, you know, that compared to the billions of streams that you have later is just so insane to think, like, all that is part of the DNA that makes you who you are now. It's incredible. Sometimes I try to go back and think about where we've been or where I've been and all the different. Experiences. Because what, like, people ask me advice or, like, artists you meet, you can see sometimes maybe they're at the beginning of the journey, they haven't even played a show or they've had huge success and they're, like, running on fumes and you can just see it, like, all the things that can, like, it's a very, it's a hard life, the touring, without being in your daily kind of grounded life. Like, being out there, it's glamorous, it's fun, it's, you know, rock and roll but you can really lose yourself and i think um did you lose yourself in that process yeah definitely yeah how so i mean it's been i feel like the national we've had every version of you know rock and roll just whether it's losing friends or like issues with substances or or being um like the interpersonal dynamics fortunately we're still all really close and in a good place but it's definitely like it's not easy you know and i think people that tour it's good when you take it i think when you set limits for it and i i enjoy seeing artists like i said i i started working with gracie before she really ever played a show um it's exciting almost seven years ago and um i like that because i could sort of be there in a way to sort of as she started to play more and more shows they started to get bigger and bigger did have a lot to say you know about like what what it can do and where you are and um but but as far as on a musical level it is incredible to to feel like that everything that i learned and all the playing music so intensely in your basement as a kid like now that makes me comfortable in any situation because it's worst case scenario i know i can play you know so like i might not be able to might not have the best idea on that day or whatever it is but i enjoy playing you know i can do that band says stick together uh because being in a band is the worst i'll just tell us about your experience bro look man i i if it wasn't for 10 years of record deals and touring around and selling very few records i wouldn't have been like i wonder what it's like if i try to write songs with and for other people and see what's on the other side of it and it's you know whatever uh songs i've had that have been successful happened because i have performed in front of people and i and being in a band sucks and it's like i want to know what it's like to look when you write with an artist when you write with a band you're in a band for 25 27 day whatever you had 29 years like it's a crazy amount of time like people aren't how many people do you know that are married for almost 30 years it's a long time to be in a relationship with people and when you write with an artist or or a songwriter if it sucks after a week you're gone you know you don't but when you write with you know when you're with a band you have to go through the ups and downs and one way is to share in revenue there's something beautiful about your co-writers what people don't really understand is the only other people in the world that know what you're going through when a song is successful or not successful is your collaborator yeah and so when you guys you know there's a reason why some one of my collaborators is the godfather to my son and vice versa yeah you know because you know you really go in the the life you're going through the same journey yeah but once you start writing hits for other people you're now on a separate journey than the other guys in the band is that hard for the band um that's a good question i mean i feel like there's they're amazing and extremely gracious about all the things that have happened to me and i think there's some sort of tacit understanding because of i think because of the role i always played of being like i was very generous i was very much just had all these ideas all the time musically which couldn't possibly all be national songs and also the nationals like this slow moving amoeba that's like who knows when it's gonna surface again kind of feeling um i think it's in some ways been a relief probably that you know i'm really busy and bryce is really busy and matt is really busy and there's like a little space because you can you can eat each other up you know and it's it's a beautiful family and they're like every character in that band every person in the band is a beautiful family and they're like every person in the band is a beautiful family and they're like every person in the band is a beautiful family and they're like every person in the band is a beautiful family and they're like every person in the band is a beautiful family and family and they're like every person in the band is a beautiful family. and they're like every person in the band is a beautiful family and they're like every person in the band is a beautiful family. and they're like every person in the band is a beautiful family. I want you to open the Bon Iver tour by yourself. And it was going to be like this big arena tour. And I was like, but how would I, you know, I can't do that. Why did he ask you to do that? I think he just thought, I think because he had, that's a whole other line of talking. But he'd been so, grown so accustomed to sitting and listening to music that I made that he kind of just wanted me to do that. Like play the music that I make in a space for lots of people before he would play. So then I was nervous because I thought that would be so fun, but I was terrified. So I'd been making all these things, like tons of them during the whole last period of the national touring and then in the months before COVID hit. So I had a whole folder and I just like, I just was sitting at the, I remember. I was sitting at my kitchen table in upstate New York and I just sent the Dropbox folder to Taylor. And like 3 a.m. that night, she sent back Cardigan fully written. Like fully written. And as a voice memo. And I was like, holy shit. Like what's happening? So what was it that you sent, when you sent the instrumental for Cardigan, you have a guitar there? Well, fortunately it's on piano, but I think it saves me. Fine. It was pretty much the song musically. Like there's not, because I was making sketches, songs without words, but fully producing them because I was imagining that I was going to go play them on tour. Just as instrumentals, or was there a part of you that was going to, were you thinking of writing top lines for those tracks? I was maybe going to sing a few things. Did you have a version of any songs on the track for Cardigan? No, not that one. But like a version of Invisible String, I had been sort of singing along to. And there's certain songs where like, but that wasn't really my idea. My idea was mainly to play instrumental music. Because I can sing and I like singing, but like having been around such incredible singers, it's pretty intimidating when you're like, want to step out and do that. So not really my, wasn't really my idea, but basically the song was fairly fully formed. It was fully formed structurally. And then, and she just, it was incredible what she did. I mean, you just were like, it was like, I was a, I felt like a high school basketball player. Suddenly it was like on a team with Michael Jordan. Like it was like winning, you know, it was just like, holy shit. Just the way she just carved into it and gave it so much. And then for the next few days, other songs, she just started sending them from tracks, you know, that she sent the song Peace and she sent the song Invisible String. And, um, and these were written to tracks that I had sent her, um, where it was astonishing because I didn't, it was as though we were doing in a room together, you know, because they did, they had corners and went places and, you know. Yeah. It doesn't sound like that. Yeah. What were your expectations for Folklore before it came out? I mean, I think I was just hoping, well, first of all, I didn't, I, I, for some, for some reason I didn't pay attention while we were making it. It was just such a beautiful time. So it was so inspiring and so private. It was just this direct back and forth that we were having. It felt very hermetically sealed from the world. Nobody knew she really, it was myself and John Lowe, this incredible engineer who was sort of living with us almost during COVID. And then Taylor was in LA at that time. We were just firing stuff back and forth. And it felt, I didn't think about it really what the world would think until I think up, up until the point where it had to be mastered, it was going to come out. And then, and then she, I think she, I think Taylor actually, she was just always really encouraging me not to worry about the shadow of what she had done before or what the, her expectations were quite low, I think commercially at least. And I just, I think she hadn't, I don't think she knew how it would be received. And then we were on the phone on FaceTime as it came out. And you started to see this crazy response and like crazy critical acclaim. And it was just, it was fair. It was like quickly a buzz with this sort of transformative moment for me at least. And it was really, really exciting and life affirming and crazy. It was, it was never expected it. And I started to realize then, you know, how just her reach, you know, as an artist, I already, of course I knew how that she is biggest pop star in the world, but I just said, didn't really allow myself to think about, cause some of these songs are so, you know, like piece is a good example. It's like a pulse with like three harmonized bass lines and mix meter. And she like traces this song to it, you know, and it's a beautiful thing, but I was like, it's not going to be a hit. It's not, it never was a hit, but like it was, but it still has hundreds and hundreds of millions of streams. So it's yeah. And her fans, I think the beautiful thing was like the way her fans met this music and embraced it and saw a side of her, you know, how do you, how do you approach a song that you didn't write? Cause there are songs on that, that you didn't write, but you produce it. What's the difference when you approach a song that is given to you, that you're not a collaborator on, on the composition side? Yeah, I feel, I love that to be honest. Like there are certain songs like exile is one of them or Betty, which Jack and I produced together, which I loved producing. And it kind of frees you a little bit. It's like, it's not your child, but you are, you've been trusted to shepherd it. And then there's a kind of free, a different kind of feeling in that I'd find it a little bit harder musically. Cause if I didn't write the music, I have to search a little harder to know how to take it somewhere or find its corners. Whereas like, if I usually, if I made the music, it's kind of all in me already or something, you know, like what's the base going to do. I already know or something, but, but I love it. I mean like the Kevin Morby record that I just made, which I really just am so in love with. I didn't write a thing on that and I'm so I would, I wouldn't want to, it doesn't need, it's just feels perfect to me. The Evermore era, you know, a follow up to, to doing folklore champagne problems is obviously a massive song and it's, I mean, they're all massive, but what is the, what becomes your expectations for the followup? You know, being, being now the guy, what are your expectations for Evermore? I think we were, what happened was we were having so much fun. We had so much fun making folklore and you keep, feel that it wasn't complete. Like it wasn't, I don't think either of us wanted to give up that place that we were in or this, that we were walking through and all the just joy and kind of artistry of air just being in this making stuff. And it was still the pandemic. So it was actually, I had gone to see her when, just after folklore came out to kind of celebrate. And as a thank you, I sent as a thank you note, I wrote the music of willow and just send it to her, but not really thinking, I don't, I don't think I was like trying to lure her into another like song or album. And I swear 20 minutes later, she sent back the boy, like my phone. She had written willow. And then I think she said, I guess we're making another record. Well, there's a guitar right there. I know. What did you send for? Well, what is something like, um, I might not be able to sucker. I mean, it wouldn't, it wouldn't, it wouldn't be, it would have been on the rubber bridge, but I think it was a little bit more than that. I think it was a little bit more than that. something like that i can't even remember exactly how it goes but it's basically just a this riff and like a tiny bit of production you know with uh that's awesome but with the with the structure with with your discography do you have i know you know we've talked to uh you know ed and some of these guys who can just pick any song in their discography and they can play it and sing it if i were to go back to the beginning of national songs you know can you can you like do you have the ability to play every song that you've released um the national maybe yeah but like but not i was never someone that could just sit at a campfire and just like play and sing songs because i always had collaborators so it was always in a group or something but yeah i could i i think most of those are imprinted and then it's funny though because now i've this is the new thing of like because i make i have made so much music in the last six or seven years that i i can't remember at all yeah i mean i remember it i want to hear it but like i'm like on how it goes it's like gracie was on this podcast and when we did it um it was it was right before the release and then she went and did came back on the day the album came out this is when we released that episode and i just remember her talking about this incredible relationship she had with you guys um how did you meet how did you meet gracie um well actually i think i met gracie because my publisher jen who's here tonight and we also shared um we have the same lawyer gillian who's also here tonight um they they introduced us and it was at a time when i was still very much in the thick of making evermore i think and um and i'd never met someone remotely via facetime or zoom that i would potentially collaborate with so even that idea was like what are you like what how will that work um but i think that they i somehow they knew that i just had a they had a feeling and so we had a gracie and i talked on facetime and it felt like i was talking to my sister or something or my little sister and um yeah we just know that we're going to be together and we're going to be together and we're going to be together and then eventually she came to long bun for the first time and she came her mom is from maine and that she'd been visiting her grandparents up there near camden maine and she drove down from camden and the first thing we made i think we called it camden which is a song of hers um and like we kind of just from that first day we were making two or three songs a day just writing them in the room together it was the opposite of how a different way of working i wasn't sending her tracks we were just like wake up every morning and see what would happen and usually i would just start playing things and she would respond or be like try something else or you know then we would just find these songs and it was and we and that was amazing thing about gracie she was fully comfortable just being completely open and being there with no real there was no pressure in the room no like i'm searching for a you never felt like she was searching for something specific or a hit song or a kind of it just wasn't there we were literally just like anything was worth chasing you know um so that's how it started and it's still like that it's just still feels incredibly natural and and we've become really close friends and really been through a lot and lots of in both our lives that things have happened and um at this point it made so much music so it feels like a real feels like we're almost in a band but not without all the dysfunctions it's interesting when you think of the the past producer of the year nominees and winners you know um some of the greatest right now obviously max just had his 30th number one and you know jack antonoff won what three years in a row and uh you know jack had obviously has his own thing but still worked with basker and a bunch of people throughout his process and learned from a lot of sort of masters where he could find his own identity and um you know what same thing these people learned from greats and then and uh max even with with um dennis pop like a lot of these guys came from greats who's your yoda it's it's interesting to think about because i feel like i've not been able to have the same kind of exposure maybe to working with other people because i live somewhat in my own like upstate and i haven't been in la or in the city very much to work with people but early on peter cadis who made the national like he made alligator and boxer and um and he made you know intervals turn on the bright lights and antics and like i learned a lot from him just about our music and like how he approached things and then as i as i got into producing more and more i did benefit from exposure to jack and to because i was i was seeing some some songs we would work on together but it was also like we were coexisting on different records and and i've been fortunate same thing with like ed with ed sheer and i got to see how fred or certain songs with max were like you would just see how things were done but it was never like in the actual room so it's just like over time i think i did absorb a lot and study a lot but it's been pretty i feel like a little bit like the country bumpkin who's just like still tinkering with acoustic instruments and stuff and is is is you know just doing in my own lane or something you know although i have to say what andy watt did come to long pond because we worked on brandy's brandy carlisle's record together and it was so fun and he was so by the end of him being there it was like we had changed i was the like bold crazy like loud guitar player and he was like super subtle and arty like doing like kind of folky stuff and it was a really it was a fun melding of minds for someone who is an instrumentalist primarily an instrumentalist to become the storyteller's whisperer how does that make sense i honestly think it's it's yeah it's allowing well first of all i don't i'm not sure i know but but but i've thought i've tried to reflect on that a little bit over over the years and part of it's making music that i that i really believe in regardless of what happens in terms of melodically or lyrically what's there like making music that feels like it's already there and i think that's a really good way to about something or that has an emotional purpose for me um and for maybe for others that hear it like there's something about that that draws stories out of other people so early on matt would always say he feels like the music there's times where he feels like the song is actually telling him stuff and that always felt cool that he was saying it but i didn't quite understand it and then justin similarly would say like he would just come hang out because we got to be really good friends over the last 20 years and we would always just listen to music and mess around in the studio most of the time not sharing any of it with the world but he would kind of say the same thing where like you feel like the music that i was making had stories or images or things in it and i think and i don't know it's not intentional i think it's literally just because i try to make things that i would drive around listening to because i find it soothing emotionally and just fun you know um but that's so that feels like part of why i've ended up in that role it's just the kind of music that i seem to make but the other side of it is i feel like i don't i don't feel like i have to fill the space so like there's a lot of times with great songwriters where i'm just pretty happy to be there like a companion you know and like like noah i've made a lot of of like it's very interactive at times but there's other times when we've worked where i just try to kind of like get out of the way of his like he just needs needs to like write you know so part of it's like it's almost like you throw the you throw the pitch you know and then get out of the way it's you know this last year i named all those people from the last eight ten months or so and if If you obviously add a couple more months, you also can add Taylor Swift's Tortured Poets Department. You can add Ed Sheeran's album. There's so much music that happened all at the same time. And when I write with an artist, it feels like the song that they're going to go with comes out, I don't know, anywhere from like eight months to 15 months later. And you have no idea the rhyme or reason. It just seems to do the thing. But you seem to have this schedule, like, you know, I don't know, somehow you're able to finish an album and the album actually comes out as scheduled. How do, you know, and Noah obviously famously had some time issues with getting albums out. So how is it that these albums seem to not get shelved? Well, it has happened to me, but I feel like I'm a good, I am good in the final stretch of like just being very committed and very just willing to lose my mind to finish something. Because there is always this thing with records where they hit somewhere along the line, they hit the wall. They hit like an impasse, whether it's like in the songwriting or production or like label or something happens where it's like you're pushed. You are like in the fight, you know. And I feel like I'm pretty tough for some reason. I think the nuts comes from the national because the national records were very hard to make and touring and early. Like, I'm just like, I'm not soft in that way. So like when things get a little. Intense, I just kind of buckle down. So I feel like I've been like the Mumford record that was, it needed, you know, we had to wasn't the easiest record to make in the line, in the final stretch of it. And it was kind of like buckle in because I feel like I've been there a lot. What made it hard to finish? I mean, it was the first time they'd ever had outside writers. Obviously, Marcus has been on this podcast too. Yeah. You know, he talked it. First of all, I talked about Lompani. It's like somehow the music just sort of falls out of the sky there. But what made it so hard to finish Prizefighter, which is an excellent album, by the way? Thank you. It is a family favorite in the Golan household. I love it. I mean, I think it's because they were coming back from so long away and they had made Rushmere, which is a great record. And it was right. But we sort of, a lot of the songs that became Prizefighter appeared even before Rushmere was done. So there was this moment where it was like finishing Prizefighter because they went on tour with Rushmere. And it seemed like it might end up stranded. And so there was a period of time where I did feel like I was carrying the torch a little bit for it. But I don't have a problem doing that. And I feel like I can be, if I believe in something. And they were all super into it also. But they're also on tour and kind of doing their thing. And I was like, no, guys, we got to circle the wagons and finish this. I think it's important. And so they did. So maybe if I had been less persistent, it might have taken longer or fallen apart or something like that. What's a memorable studio moment? You know, instead of, we usually do a rapid fire, but I'm not going to do that right now. What I want to know are, because these are such icons that you're working with. I just want to know a memorable studio moment from each of these. Let's start with Gracie Abrams. What's a memorable moment with Gracie Abrams? I mean, this is going to, it's not about music. But my kids, like out of nowhere. It was her 23rd birthday, Gracie's birthday. And she was at the studio. And my kids, with no prompting from anyone, came home from school. And they all went and put on like their best clothes. My son was seven and my daughter was 10. And they put on like their clothes they would wear to church or something. And we don't go to church. But came out with their instruments. And they had rehearsed. And like came into the studio and sat around her and played her happy birthday song. And it was just like, but it was not like I did not put them up to it. It's like they just somehow, they were so, you know, it was, that's not a music making anecdote. Brandi Carlile is one of the best singers of all time. What is it like working with Brandi Carlile? I mean, she's just so legit. It's like. She's been there. She's done it. So when she came to Long Pond, it was after, she was kind of like, she had just finished all the, her final Joanie jam at the Hollywood Bowl and flew out. And really, I don't think she knew. Both of us were like, what are we doing? Like, what's going to happen? I don't think she had any, there were no songs. There was no idea. And, and we wrote. And that first day we wrote A War With Time and No One Knows Us. And it was like being with a, just a classic poet, singer, Renaissance woman of just, she's powerful. You know, it's like really, and her voice, what she's capable of. And you just feel, she's just formidable and she's an amazing human being. So, yeah. And she's fabulous. Fascinating, really. Tell me a story about working with Florence and the Machine. Yeah. I mean, Florence is, she won't mind me saying that she's witchy. It's like she, if she, it's as though like a 16th century, like operatic, mystical, slightly witchy woman just like landed in the Hudson Valley. And it's like. I think people in the Hudson Valley. In the 16th century. I know. Would have also thought that she was a witch. Yeah. Yeah. It would have been, it would have been a, not a great result. Man. But the Puritans, but I think she's physically like she, how she makes music. It's this, she's constantly moving and she's constantly like a feverishness to how she, a feverish uncompromising. It's like deeply passionate approach to music making. And she's, I never saw her sing a single thing twice. You just sing, like if she's singing a lead vocal, she's almost disregarding the mic and just kind of like twirling into the, into the isoboost and sings like off the mic. And it's like, you wouldn't change a thing about it. And then she's back out before you even notice. And you're just like. And there's smoke. Yeah. Being. But she also, I mean, she, she hears things and she's interested in sound in ways that's real. It was challenging and pushed, pushed me like to, to be uncomfortable with sound. Like there were sounds and notes and stuff that I was like, why would we have that like weird note droning through the whole song? And she was right. She was just like, it's gotta be that. That's what it is. But she's, she's really. She's really just absolutely brilliant. I do have the question written that I was curious about, which is who's the artist with the highest standards? I mean, I feel like everyone, I mean, they're all different. I feel like a lot of people I've encountered that get to this place. Of the ones we're talking. About right now are weirdly laid back about details because they see a bigger picture. So like less nitpicky, you know, like definitely Florence and Taylor and Noah and people like that. They're not kind of telling you to turn the bass up or by point two or whatever, you know, it's like, they're not thinking that way. I feel like artists that are. Starting like in an earlier time of their career, there's more anxiety or something about this kind of. um getting the perfect thing and then as you as you go on you realize that there's a million ways to make the same song and you know it's it doesn't it's not this like cold fists around the the steering wheel um but i have stories but i probably you know fair uh sam barber is amazing i'm such a fan what's it like working with sam in a studio what what's the story around sam i mean he came sam came to long pun early like it came last year and it was my first encounter with him also was in the studio and he was he was fully um writing in in in the room and it's right with him there it's this like raw force coming out of him where he um I think it's almost you feel he's like in a in a almost in a some kind of state of mind that's where he's not fully present with you while he's like actually losing himself in the song and he would stay up all night i would go in at some point i would go in the house and then i would come back and it seemed like he hadn't slept but he would have finished finished a song and let that song hope it never rains and he just this like incredible force and i think that's what i'm looking for you know you can tell he's going to go really far no khan had this you know it's obviously a really visible follow-up to his first album and you know the journey to it's documented literally in a documentary and he talks about it a lot you come in and he finished the album what was it like dealing with an artist who has that dysfunction around him i mean i think with noah you could feel that he i mean first of all when he first came to long pun he sort of said up front that to me that he didn't think we would write songs that maybe we just get to know each other he was sort of doing a you know check your expectations sort of feeling and then in a genuine way i think he didn't didn't know and he was pretty burnt out from touring and from just that long crazy ride that he'd been on mystic season and i think he he he was not sure where he was as a writer as a you know what he wanted to say it was it was definitely a a confusing time for him um artistically and and also with that level of success you do end up getting pulled in all these different directions like work with this person right with this person like be in this room be in that room and i think it can be confusing it can be also like a little soul killing at times um that was me it was a little bit of the energy that he arrived with and i think that was also maybe what he was scared of is like another situation with another like dude like trying to get songs out of him or whatever it would be um and he came and we sat down and chatted and made porch light which came kind of just out in the room it was very clearly like both topically and what the song does it was like extremely cathartic to have that be the first thing that happened it was so obviously strong and so obviously important you know and and so i think it and i just think the energy was very comfortable between us it was like we were we had already met we were already there and um plus we were like playing soccer half the day out in the yard and golfing and stuff so it was just fun you know yeah i imagine that you know a few of these albums are going to get nominated plus you know this body of work is just so substantial and like you said that kevin morby when you're not a writer on your producer on it i just think it's so impressive adding suki who's totally different than them you know that feels like that's a real departure musically um i feel like this is just such an incredible year for you man thank you it's it's a i feel super honored to be here with like with you and also it is it is weird how all these records kind of came in a relatively bright window and like gracie's records about to come out that i'm so so proud of but i don't you know i just think it's i just think i'm lucky basically yeah well uh you know number one albums one in a year two in a year having a song on one would be like that's cool it's just like you know some of its luck for sure timing is a lot of luck like you're not orchestrating it all to come out so well but it it certainly is if if you were to this is how you would do it so thank you for doing this podcast thank you so much thank you i would say if we have like uh you know we have probably about five more minutes if if there are any questions we can do a couple of q a if you're down for that yeah yeah any any quick questions yeah in the back can't see you i can i think i have a light on me just look like a silhouette yeah yeah i i want there was an interesting thing you talk about about finding the corners and finding the corners either in the room or remotely i just wanted to understand that bit more can you create something great if you don't find the corners yeah well okay i think i was referring to like music if you write music for someone else to sing to if it's too like generally i make like quarterly simple music but there's usually something about it that is giving it depth or some complexity or there's some risk that you take in it and i find that that generally like it might be harder for someone to respond to it but it usually means it's gonna be more special or be more complex and i think that's more compelling on some level than if it's just writing the same i mean a lot of people like but i also admire artists that can write the best songs with just the simplest chords but i think because i'm a musician first and an instrumentalist like i tend to try to make music that has something in it that's like a little bump or a little corner or just like sometimes it's little just like an extra beat here and there i always say this is sovereign uh friend of all of ours uh it says uh that it's like writing a screenplay to special effects and i think that when when that guy's giving you tracks and you're like i have how am i supposed to sing through this you know it's just landmine landmine then all of a sudden you switch keys yeah go yourself like but you do like yours are like time changes and like and a lot of that but it feels like you you don't do the key change don't do the key change man that's i just try singing with that that's not fair i've never i i've never done a key change until hit the wall grace's single that's out now and that was like i was literally messing around trying to make a sketch and she walked in and she was like like that i just happened to play a like an f major instead of a minor i think it was on accident she was like that's cool i was like you sure we need that we need that we i think they said last year was the the first year were no songs in the top 10 had a key change some some crazy that i probably butchered that but that's about right i don't know something to think about uh another yes hello i'm naya i'm a musician here in new york uh i know you were talking about kind of growing up doing day jobs as well as music what advice would you give to upcoming artists who work day jobs and are trying to balance making music i think it's really good to have limitations with how much time you have to make music and like do you have to support yourself and like with the professional we kept it i would i would literally call in sick to work and i would be in france or something it'd be like and okay i think it's really worth it to just push it you know and you can't matt in our band would always quit his job like a year before we would have decided to do it and we'd be like what are you what are you doing but he said he was the one that was like kind of so optimistic and the rest of us were more cautious but i don't think i think it's good to have limitations and you can in the time like sometimes the best work you just you literally do when you're exhausted at 10 p.m before you go to bed i don't know thank you thanks two more go for it off topic what's your favorite soccer team um thank good question um you should just say the next even though you know this is the right answer right now at all in this city it doesn't matter what sport you say what's your favorite food the next is the answer for me it's definitely liverpool but Right now, it's the U.S. Men's National Team. Hey, now we're talking. All right, one more. Hi, I'm Maria. I'm a songwriter here in New York. In working with all these greats or titans, would you say there's a commonality in terms of either a mindset or a personality trait? Obviously, these are the elites of our industry. Is there a thread that you see running through all of them? They all work with Aaron Dexter. I would say that all of them can blow your mind in terms of just raw talent that they've developed and worked really hard. Nobody's just coasting to get to that point. I was very encouraged to see that they were able to do that. Thank you.